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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Elections: January 22nd 2014 – Harry Hayfield

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited January 2015 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Elections: January 22nd 2014 – Harry Hayfield

Kirkcaldy East on Fife (SNP defence)
Result of council at last election (2012): Labour 35, Scottish Nationalists 26, Liberal Democrats 10, Conservatives 3, Independents 3, Non Party Independent 1 (No Overall Control, Labour short by 5)
Result of ward at last election (2012):

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    First!!!
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Random fact: King Saud, the half-brother of Kings Abdullah and Salman, reigned 1953-64, had 115 kids....
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RodCrosby said:

    Random fact: King Saud, the half-brother of Kings Abdullah and Salman, reigned 1953-64, had 115 kids....

    That he knows of.

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RodCrosby said:

    Random fact: King Saud, the half-brother of Kings Abdullah and Salman, reigned 1953-64, had 115 kids....

    Well, to be anatomically accurate, he didn't. His wives did.
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Mike

    Do you now believe that the consistent evidence from the polls is correct. The SNP surge is real lo even unto fortress Kirkcaldy, that it has nothing to do with the nationality of phone pollsters, that it is reflected in local elections, valid polls and party membership. Is it now game , set and match to we believers.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Random fact: King Saud, the half-brother of Kings Abdullah and Salman, reigned 1953-64, had 115 kids....

    That he knows of.

    Maybe he just stopped counting...
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    scotslass said:

    Is it now game , set and match to we believers.

    But you did lose the cup final last September.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RodCrosby said:

    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Random fact: King Saud, the half-brother of Kings Abdullah and Salman, reigned 1953-64, had 115 kids....

    That he knows of.

    Maybe he just stopped counting...
    Statistically speaking he must have had quite a few gay kids. Now those are coming out stories I'd like to hear.

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    RodCrosby said:

    Random fact: King Saud, the half-brother of Kings Abdullah and Salman, reigned 1953-64, had 115 kids....

    His brother and successor, Faisal, 1964-75, is credited with the introduction of TV to the Kingdom...
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Random fact: King Saud, the half-brother of Kings Abdullah and Salman, reigned 1953-64, had 115 kids....

    His brother and successor, Faisal, 1964-75, is credited with the introduction of TV to the Kingdom...
    - and by 2095 women may be allowed to drive.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Tim_B said:

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Random fact: King Saud, the half-brother of Kings Abdullah and Salman, reigned 1953-64, had 115 kids....

    His brother and successor, Faisal, 1964-75, is credited with the introduction of TV to the Kingdom...
    - and by 2095 women may be allowed to drive.
    You didn't get the gag, did you...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038
    How long has this thread been here?!
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Neil

    Not the cup final. Just the first leg!
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Random fact: King Saud, the half-brother of Kings Abdullah and Salman, reigned 1953-64, had 115 kids....

    His brother and successor, Faisal, 1964-75, is credited with the introduction of TV to the Kingdom...
    - and by 2095 women may be allowed to drive.
    You didn't get the gag, did you...
    One of us didn't. You didn't say if the TV was color or HD.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    scotslass said:

    Neil

    Not the cup final. Just the first leg!

    The cup final for this generation.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited January 2015
    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg

    Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    This generation will demand the VOW. The next will carry off the Cup!
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Neil said:

    scotslass said:

    Neil

    Not the cup final. Just the first leg!

    The cup final for this generation.
    Autoglass, er Johnstones Paint trophy still on offer
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    possibly the "Scottish League Cup presented by QTS"
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    scotslass said:

    This generation will demand the VOW. The next will carry off the Cup!

    Like Quebec?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038
    RodCrosby said:

    Random fact: King Saud, the half-brother of Kings Abdullah and Salman, reigned 1953-64, had 115 kids....

    Someone do the maths and work out how long it will be until all Saudis will be a descendent of King Saud!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Scots for EVEL - +21% net.....

    Voters in Scotland are also sympathetic to the principle that Scottish MPs be prevented from voting on matters that have no direct impact on Scotland.

    The poll found that 27% of Scots "strongly support" EVEL and a further 24% "tend to support" it, putting overall backing for the measure at 51%. Eighteen percent "strongly oppose" such a move while 12% "tend to oppose", totalling 30% in opposition. Fourteen percent said they neither supported nor opposed the policy.


    http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/307531-stv-ipsos-mori-poll-on-smith-commission-and-english-votes-for-english-laws/
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    Only the other day we were being told there was no sign of the SNP surge in local elections.....
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    I wonder how long Labour will remain committed to the Union if they lose most of their Scottish seats in May. They still have Wales... for now.
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Felix

    Wasn't the theory of no SNP surge based on the work of a former Tory MP?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    scotslass said:

    Felix

    Wasn't the theory of no SNP surge based on the work of a former Tory MP?

    No idea - I think more likely based on the wishful thinking from the Labour party and some sympathisers on here.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    scotslass said:

    Felix

    Wasn't the theory of no SNP surge based on the work of a former Tory MP?

    A shot in the dark but you may be thinking of Iain Dale - who was a candidate, not an MP.

    Iain very bravely makes predictions for every seat in the UK here:
    iaindale.com/posts/2014/12/29/general-election-predictions-the-complete-list
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    GeoffM said:

    scotslass said:

    Felix

    Wasn't the theory of no SNP surge based on the work of a former Tory MP?

    A shot in the dark but you may be thinking of Iain Dale - who was a candidate, not an MP.

    Iain very bravely makes predictions for every seat in the UK here:
    iaindale.com/posts/2014/12/29/general-election-predictions-the-complete-list
    There was also the analysis that Rob Haywood (?) the ex-Tory MP did for Cameron/the 1922. I'm not sure what it said about Scotland.

    But I suspect that @scotslass is conflating Iain and Rob's work.
  • JamesMoJamesMo Posts: 35
    edited January 2015
    scotslass said:

    Felix

    Wasn't the theory of no SNP surge based on the work of a former Tory MP?

    GeoffM said:

    scotslass said:

    Felix

    Wasn't the theory of no SNP surge based on the work of a former Tory MP?

    A shot in the dark but you may be thinking of Iain Dale - who was a candidate, not an MP.

    Iain very bravely makes predictions for every seat in the UK here:
    iaindale.com/posts/2014/12/29/general-election-predictions-the-complete-list
    No, it was an analysis of recent Scottish local by-elections by Rob Hayward (MP for Kingswood, 1983 to 1992). There was only ward (South Argyll) before yesterday that showed a big swing to the SNP from the 2012 results. There had only really been one SNP v Labour contest in that sample (Midlothian something), because most of the contests were pretty rural (Aberdeenshire, Elgin something, two in Argyll).
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Felix

    A quick check reveals that our host was relying on the work of former Tory MP, Mike Hayward. I have never detected any pro or indeed anti Labour sympathy from Mike just a bucket load of anti SNP sympathy.

    I'm on my way to work in a train which always gets me thinking. Is it possible that one of the many reasons for Labour's Scottish malaise is that Murphy is - and I know this will come across as sexist - profoundly unattractive in his maner and presentation ie does Labour now have a women problem?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2015
    Unfortunately he tends to ignore (a) the Scottish opinion polls, and (b) Ashcroft polling.
    GeoffM said:

    scotslass said:

    Felix

    Wasn't the theory of no SNP surge based on the work of a former Tory MP?

    A shot in the dark but you may be thinking of Iain Dale - who was a candidate, not an MP.

    Iain very bravely makes predictions for every seat in the UK here:
    iaindale.com/posts/2014/12/29/general-election-predictions-the-complete-list
  • JamesMoJamesMo Posts: 35

    Scots for EVEL - +21% net.....

    Voters in Scotland are also sympathetic to the principle that Scottish MPs be prevented from voting on matters that have no direct impact on Scotland.

    The poll found that 27% of Scots "strongly support" EVEL and a further 24% "tend to support" it, putting overall backing for the measure at 51%. Eighteen percent "strongly oppose" such a move while 12% "tend to oppose", totalling 30% in opposition. Fourteen percent said they neither supported nor opposed the policy.


    http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/307531-stv-ipsos-mori-poll-on-smith-commission-and-english-votes-for-english-laws/

    That's an indication that SNP voters aren't that bothered about EVEL. In fact, some of them will support it because they think it will improve the prospects of independence.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    AndyJS said:

    Unfortunately he tends to ignore (a) the Scottish opinion polls, and (b) Ashcroft polling.

    GeoffM said:

    scotslass said:

    Felix

    Wasn't the theory of no SNP surge based on the work of a former Tory MP?

    A shot in the dark but you may be thinking of Iain Dale - who was a candidate, not an MP.

    Iain very bravely makes predictions for every seat in the UK here:
    iaindale.com/posts/2014/12/29/general-election-predictions-the-complete-list
    The same Iain Dale who was sure he'd win Norfolk north and was hammered. He makes Dan Hodges seem prescient.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Murray through but Federer out of the Australian Open.

    Meanwhile .... Standing German men can still take the piss :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30937492
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    JamesMo said:

    Scots for EVEL - +21% net.....

    Voters in Scotland are also sympathetic to the principle that Scottish MPs be prevented from voting on matters that have no direct impact on Scotland.

    The poll found that 27% of Scots "strongly support" EVEL and a further 24% "tend to support" it, putting overall backing for the measure at 51%. Eighteen percent "strongly oppose" such a move while 12% "tend to oppose", totalling 30% in opposition. Fourteen percent said they neither supported nor opposed the policy.


    http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/307531-stv-ipsos-mori-poll-on-smith-commission-and-english-votes-for-english-laws/

    That's an indication that SNP voters aren't that bothered about EVEL. In fact, some of them will support it because they think it will improve the prospects of independence.
    Indeed, and irrespective of independence they also don't see why their MP should be wasting his time sorting out problems and issues that they don't see as their concern. If my local (English) MP spent a proportion of his time looking at issues with the SHS I wouldn't be very impressed either.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg

    Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.

    I'm sure they're keeping their powder dry until the civil trial starts, and then it will be wall to wall coverage across all platforms. Not.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Telegraph Politics ‏@TelePolitics · 38m38 minutes ago
    What the SNP really wants is Mr Cameron back in No 10 http://tgr.ph/1JqKscm

    "The only goal that matters to the SNP is independence – and that means assembling a narrative of a Scotland suing for divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable political differences. Without a villain, Ms Sturgeon will not have much of a pantomime; so she needs Cameron, the Old Etonian with a Brasenose First, as prime minister. Ideally in coalition with Nigel Farage. And most of all, she wants his in-or-out referendum on the European Union. If England votes to leave and Scotland to stay, it would induce the constitutional crisis that the SNP needs. This is the new road map to independence.

    But for now, the SNP needs to win as many seats as possible – which means publicly entertaining the idea of coalition with Ed Miliband. Polls show that such an alliance would be the most popular election result in Scotland – which is precisely why, in the end, Ms Sturgeon can’t allow it to happen"
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    In the 1975 referendum Scotland was more anti-Europe than England.
    isam said:

    Telegraph Politics ‏@TelePolitics · 38m38 minutes ago
    What the SNP really wants is Mr Cameron back in No 10 http://tgr.ph/1JqKscm

    "The only goal that matters to the SNP is independence – and that means assembling a narrative of a Scotland suing for divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable political differences. Without a villain, Ms Sturgeon will not have much of a pantomime; so she needs Cameron, the Old Etonian with a Brasenose First, as prime minister. Ideally in coalition with Nigel Farage. And most of all, she wants his in-or-out referendum on the European Union. If England votes to leave and Scotland to stay, it would induce the constitutional crisis that the SNP needs. This is the new road map to independence.

    But for now, the SNP needs to win as many seats as possible – which means publicly entertaining the idea of coalition with Ed Miliband. Polls show that such an alliance would be the most popular election result in Scotland – which is precisely why, in the end, Ms Sturgeon can’t allow it to happen"

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    JamesMo said:

    Scots for EVEL - +21% net.....

    Voters in Scotland are also sympathetic to the principle that Scottish MPs be prevented from voting on matters that have no direct impact on Scotland.

    The poll found that 27% of Scots "strongly support" EVEL and a further 24% "tend to support" it, putting overall backing for the measure at 51%. Eighteen percent "strongly oppose" such a move while 12% "tend to oppose", totalling 30% in opposition. Fourteen percent said they neither supported nor opposed the policy.


    http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/307531-stv-ipsos-mori-poll-on-smith-commission-and-english-votes-for-english-laws/

    That's an indication that SNP voters aren't that bothered about EVEL. In fact, some of them will support it because they think it will improve the prospects of independence.
    Greatest support for EVEL is among Con (39) and Lib Dems (66). SNP (15) are a bit more enthusiastic than Laab (2)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    JackW said:

    Murray through but Federer out of the Australian Open.

    Meanwhile .... Standing German men can still take the piss :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30937492

    The guy who beat Federer isn't much younger than he is. A couple of years or so.
  • isam said:

    Telegraph Politics ‏@TelePolitics · 38m38 minutes ago
    What the SNP really wants is Mr Cameron back in No 10 http://tgr.ph/1JqKscm

    "The only goal that matters to the SNP is independence – and that means assembling a narrative of a Scotland suing for divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable political differences. Without a villain, Ms Sturgeon will not have much of a pantomime; so she needs Cameron, the Old Etonian with a Brasenose First, as prime minister. Ideally in coalition with Nigel Farage. And most of all, she wants his in-or-out referendum on the European Union. If England votes to leave and Scotland to stay, it would induce the constitutional crisis that the SNP needs. This is the new road map to independence.

    But for now, the SNP needs to win as many seats as possible – which means publicly entertaining the idea of coalition with Ed Miliband. Polls show that such an alliance would be the most popular election result in Scotland – which is precisely why, in the end, Ms Sturgeon can’t allow it to happen"

    Pretty much on the button. A Tory government in Westminster would be a gift to the SNP. A Labour one would set back the case for independence a long way.

  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Further to my point about Murphy and women. I know that this is not Labour's biggest problem which is probably Milliband among men and women. How ever if you compare Murphy not with Sturgeon who is plus 47 per cent among women , or with Salmond who was always strong plus among women but even with Swinney and Harvie of the Greens then Murphy comes out badly.

    On the current MORI figures Swinney is plus 16 among women, Harvie plus 10 but Murphy minus 1. And so as I go into work is it possible that Murphy's lack of appeal is a further problem for Labour. They do look at best old fashioned and at worst like machine politicians from a bygone age!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    edited January 2015

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg

    Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.

    I'm sure they're keeping their powder dry until the civil trial starts, and then it will be wall to wall coverage across all platforms. Not.

    The coverage of this story in other news outlets is, of course, overwhelming. It's just the BBC that is ignoring it.

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30933790
  • http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg

    Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.

    Try http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30933790
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Telegraph Politics ‏@TelePolitics · 38m38 minutes ago
    What the SNP really wants is Mr Cameron back in No 10 http://tgr.ph/1JqKscm

    "The only goal that matters to the SNP is independence – and that means assembling a narrative of a Scotland suing for divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable political differences. Without a villain, Ms Sturgeon will not have much of a pantomime; so she needs Cameron, the Old Etonian with a Brasenose First, as prime minister. Ideally in coalition with Nigel Farage. And most of all, she wants his in-or-out referendum on the European Union. If England votes to leave and Scotland to stay, it would induce the constitutional crisis that the SNP needs. This is the new road map to independence.

    But for now, the SNP needs to win as many seats as possible – which means publicly entertaining the idea of coalition with Ed Miliband. Polls show that such an alliance would be the most popular election result in Scotland – which is precisely why, in the end, Ms Sturgeon can’t allow it to happen"

    Pretty much on the button. A Tory government in Westminster would be a gift to the SNP. A Labour one would set back the case for independence a long way.

    Yeah I thought that...if I were a left wing unionist I think it would be perfect if Labour governed with an SNP deputy PM. In fact it seems the fairest way for the Union to work
  • scotslass said:

    Further to my point about Murphy and women. I know that this is not Labour's biggest problem which is probably Milliband among men and women. How ever if you compare Murphy not with Sturgeon who is plus 47 per cent among women , or with Salmond who was always strong plus among women but even with Swinney and Harvie of the Greens then Murphy comes out badly.

    On the current MORI figures Swinney is plus 16 among women, Harvie plus 10 but Murphy minus 1. And so as I go into work is it possible that Murphy's lack of appeal is a further problem for Labour. They do look at best old fashioned and at worst like machine politicians from a bygone age!

    Labour's problem is that it is part of a Westminster elite that voters across Britain feel - quite rightly - is totally disconnected from them. And in Scotland voters have the perfect vehicle through which to express that dissatisfaction. It'll take Murphy a lot longer than two months to undo this.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,703
    GeoffM said:

    scotslass said:

    Felix

    Wasn't the theory of no SNP surge based on the work of a former Tory MP?

    A shot in the dark but you may be thinking of Iain Dale - who was a candidate, not an MP.

    Iain very bravely makes predictions for every seat in the UK here:
    iaindale.com/posts/2014/12/29/general-election-predictions-the-complete-list
    I wouldn't place money on some of those.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Telegraph Politics ‏@TelePolitics · 38m38 minutes ago
    What the SNP really wants is Mr Cameron back in No 10 http://tgr.ph/1JqKscm

    "The only goal that matters to the SNP is independence – and that means assembling a narrative of a Scotland suing for divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable political differences. Without a villain, Ms Sturgeon will not have much of a pantomime; so she needs Cameron, the Old Etonian with a Brasenose First, as prime minister. Ideally in coalition with Nigel Farage. And most of all, she wants his in-or-out referendum on the European Union. If England votes to leave and Scotland to stay, it would induce the constitutional crisis that the SNP needs. This is the new road map to independence.

    But for now, the SNP needs to win as many seats as possible – which means publicly entertaining the idea of coalition with Ed Miliband. Polls show that such an alliance would be the most popular election result in Scotland – which is precisely why, in the end, Ms Sturgeon can’t allow it to happen"

    Pretty much on the button. A Tory government in Westminster would be a gift to the SNP. A Labour one would set back the case for independence a long way.

    Yeah I thought that...if I were a left wing unionist I think it would be perfect if Labour governed with an SNP deputy PM. In fact it seems the fairest way for the Union to work

    If you believe in the Union you live with its consequences - good and bad. But the SNP rejects the Union and would never go into coalition with Labour. And Labour would be opposed to. But what both sides know is that the SNP would never help the Tories bring a minority Labour government down.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Indigo said:

    JamesMo said:

    Scots for EVEL - +21% net.....

    Voters in Scotland are also sympathetic to the principle that Scottish MPs be prevented from voting on matters that have no direct impact on Scotland.

    The poll found that 27% of Scots "strongly support" EVEL and a further 24% "tend to support" it, putting overall backing for the measure at 51%. Eighteen percent "strongly oppose" such a move while 12% "tend to oppose", totalling 30% in opposition. Fourteen percent said they neither supported nor opposed the policy.


    http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/307531-stv-ipsos-mori-poll-on-smith-commission-and-english-votes-for-english-laws/

    That's an indication that SNP voters aren't that bothered about EVEL. In fact, some of them will support it because they think it will improve the prospects of independence.
    Indeed, and irrespective of independence they also don't see why their MP should be wasting his time sorting out problems and issues that they don't see as their concern. If my local (English) MP spent a proportion of his time looking at issues with the SHS I wouldn't be very impressed either.
    It's not the job of MPs to "sort out problems".

    Their job is to hold the executive (who should be sorting the problems) to account. It's irrelevant whether the specific problem is one part of the country or other - it's good that the executive should be beaten up and cowed from time to time pour les encourager les autres

    [Note: this recipe includes a healthy dash of idealism]
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg

    Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.

    I'm sure they're keeping their powder dry until the civil trial starts, and then it will be wall to wall coverage across all platforms. Not.

    The coverage of this story in other news outlets is, of course, overwhelming. It's just the BBC that is ignoring it.

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30933790
    The BBC does not make the point the Independent does, that MGN hacking was substantially greater than Murdoch press, instead focussing on the celebrity angle.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    AndyJS said:

    JackW said:

    Murray through but Federer out of the Australian Open.

    Meanwhile .... Standing German men can still take the piss :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30937492

    The guy who beat Federer isn't much younger than he is. A couple of years or so.
    Indeed.

    Federer was also in Murray's half of the draw so a good result for the Scot. Nadal plays last today and his form is patchy. He is also in Murray's half.

    In the last sixteen Murray plays Dimitrov which is likely to be a much tougher match.

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Just reading up on Spain's Podemos party, compared to the eruption that would take place if they win (and they are currently leading the polls in Spain) in December, the probable victory of Syriza would be the merest clearing of the throat.

    Their key policies appear to be resiling from the Lisbon Treaty and most of the MoUs with the EU, withdrawing from NATO, droping swinging taxes on multinationals to promote local businesses and a range of SWP/Environmental policies that would make our Green Party blush.... and at the same time they want to break down barriers across the EU!
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Telegraph Politics ‏@TelePolitics · 38m38 minutes ago
    What the SNP really wants is Mr Cameron back in No 10 http://tgr.ph/1JqKscm

    "The only goal that matters to the SNP is independence – and that means assembling a narrative of a Scotland suing for divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable political differences. Without a villain, Ms Sturgeon will not have much of a pantomime; so she needs Cameron, the Old Etonian with a Brasenose First, as prime minister. Ideally in coalition with Nigel Farage. And most of all, she wants his in-or-out referendum on the European Union. If England votes to leave and Scotland to stay, it would induce the constitutional crisis that the SNP needs. This is the new road map to independence.

    But for now, the SNP needs to win as many seats as possible – which means publicly entertaining the idea of coalition with Ed Miliband. Polls show that such an alliance would be the most popular election result in Scotland – which is precisely why, in the end, Ms Sturgeon can’t allow it to happen"

    Pretty much on the button. A Tory government in Westminster would be a gift to the SNP. A Labour one would set back the case for independence a long way.

    Yeah I thought that...if I were a left wing unionist I think it would be perfect if Labour governed with an SNP deputy PM. In fact it seems the fairest way for the Union to work

    If you believe in the Union you live with its consequences - good and bad. But the SNP rejects the Union and would never go into coalition with Labour. And Labour would be opposed to. But what both sides know is that the SNP would never help the Tories bring a minority Labour government down.

    Indeed, but the SNP could appear reasonable whilst making a deal with Labour impossible (trident etc), and then stand back in faux horror as Cameron becomes PM, and gives them what they actually want, but cant say.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Charles said:

    Indigo said:

    JamesMo said:

    Scots for EVEL - +21% net.....

    Voters in Scotland are also sympathetic to the principle that Scottish MPs be prevented from voting on matters that have no direct impact on Scotland.

    The poll found that 27% of Scots "strongly support" EVEL and a further 24% "tend to support" it, putting overall backing for the measure at 51%. Eighteen percent "strongly oppose" such a move while 12% "tend to oppose", totalling 30% in opposition. Fourteen percent said they neither supported nor opposed the policy.


    http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/307531-stv-ipsos-mori-poll-on-smith-commission-and-english-votes-for-english-laws/

    That's an indication that SNP voters aren't that bothered about EVEL. In fact, some of them will support it because they think it will improve the prospects of independence.
    Indeed, and irrespective of independence they also don't see why their MP should be wasting his time sorting out problems and issues that they don't see as their concern. If my local (English) MP spent a proportion of his time looking at issues with the SHS I wouldn't be very impressed either.
    It's not the job of MPs to "sort out problems".

    Their job is to hold the executive (who should be sorting the problems) to account. It's irrelevant whether the specific problem is one part of the country or other - it's good that the executive should be beaten up and cowed from time to time pour les encourager les autres

    [Note: this recipe includes a healthy dash of idealism]
    I think all those constituencies MPs who spend their time is local surgeries listening to Mrs Miggins complaining about the poor service the local Fire Brigade gave in retrieving her cat from a tree might wish it were so!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Telegraph Politics ‏@TelePolitics · 38m38 minutes ago
    What the SNP really wants is Mr Cameron back in No 10 http://tgr.ph/1JqKscm

    "The only goal that matters to the SNP is independence – and that means assembling a narrative of a Scotland suing for divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable political differences. Without a villain, Ms Sturgeon will not have much of a pantomime; so she needs Cameron, the Old Etonian with a Brasenose First, as prime minister. Ideally in coalition with Nigel Farage. And most of all, she wants his in-or-out referendum on the European Union. If England votes to leave and Scotland to stay, it would induce the constitutional crisis that the SNP needs. This is the new road map to independence.

    But for now, the SNP needs to win as many seats as possible – which means publicly entertaining the idea of coalition with Ed Miliband. Polls show that such an alliance would be the most popular election result in Scotland – which is precisely why, in the end, Ms Sturgeon can’t allow it to happen"

    Pretty much on the button. A Tory government in Westminster would be a gift to the SNP. A Labour one would set back the case for independence a long way.

    Yeah I thought that...if I were a left wing unionist I think it would be perfect if Labour governed with an SNP deputy PM. In fact it seems the fairest way for the Union to work

    If you believe in the Union you live with its consequences - good and bad. But the SNP rejects the Union and would never go into coalition with Labour. And Labour would be opposed to. But what both sides know is that the SNP would never help the Tories bring a minority Labour government down.

    Like the SNP did in 1979.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Indigo said:

    Charles said:

    Indigo said:

    JamesMo said:

    Scots for EVEL - +21% net.....

    Voters in Scotland are also sympathetic to the principle that Scottish MPs be prevented from voting on matters that have no direct impact on Scotland.

    The poll found that 27% of Scots "strongly support" EVEL and a further 24% "tend to support" it, putting overall backing for the measure at 51%. Eighteen percent "strongly oppose" such a move while 12% "tend to oppose", totalling 30% in opposition. Fourteen percent said they neither supported nor opposed the policy.


    http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/307531-stv-ipsos-mori-poll-on-smith-commission-and-english-votes-for-english-laws/

    That's an indication that SNP voters aren't that bothered about EVEL. In fact, some of them will support it because they think it will improve the prospects of independence.
    Indeed, and irrespective of independence they also don't see why their MP should be wasting his time sorting out problems and issues that they don't see as their concern. If my local (English) MP spent a proportion of his time looking at issues with the SHS I wouldn't be very impressed either.
    It's not the job of MPs to "sort out problems".

    Their job is to hold the executive (who should be sorting the problems) to account. It's irrelevant whether the specific problem is one part of the country or other - it's good that the executive should be beaten up and cowed from time to time pour les encourager les autres

    [Note: this recipe includes a healthy dash of idealism]
    I think all those constituencies MPs who spend their time is local surgeries listening to Mrs Miggins complaining about the poor service the local Fire Brigade gave in retrieving her cat from a tree might wish it were so!
    That's not their job.

    They do it because it helps them get re-elected. But it's a voluntary activity.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg

    Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.

    Yesterday you complained the BBC made you read all the way to the second sentence to discover the Mirror had settled.

    Look at other news outlets, such as, well, Sky. The story does not make the front page of Sky News (news.sky.com) so either it is your news judgement that is awry or Rupert Murdoch is part of a conspiracy to save the Mirror's blushes.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Telegraph Politics ‏@TelePolitics · 38m38 minutes ago
    What the SNP really wants is Mr Cameron back in No 10 http://tgr.ph/1JqKscm

    "The only goal that matters to the SNP is independence – and that means assembling a narrative of a Scotland suing for divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable political differences. Without a villain, Ms Sturgeon will not have much of a pantomime; so she needs Cameron, the Old Etonian with a Brasenose First, as prime minister. Ideally in coalition with Nigel Farage. And most of all, she wants his in-or-out referendum on the European Union. If England votes to leave and Scotland to stay, it would induce the constitutional crisis that the SNP needs. This is the new road map to independence.

    But for now, the SNP needs to win as many seats as possible – which means publicly entertaining the idea of coalition with Ed Miliband. Polls show that such an alliance would be the most popular election result in Scotland – which is precisely why, in the end, Ms Sturgeon can’t allow it to happen"

    Pretty much on the button. A Tory government in Westminster would be a gift to the SNP. A Labour one would set back the case for independence a long way.

    Yeah I thought that...if I were a left wing unionist I think it would be perfect if Labour governed with an SNP deputy PM. In fact it seems the fairest way for the Union to work

    If you believe in the Union you live with its consequences - good and bad. But the SNP rejects the Union and would never go into coalition with Labour. And Labour would be opposed to. But what both sides know is that the SNP would never help the Tories bring a minority Labour government down.

    Like the SNP did in 1979.

    Exactly. And look what happened to them as a result.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited January 2015

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg

    Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.

    Yesterday you complained the BBC made you read all the way to the second sentence to discover the Mirror had settled.

    Look at other news outlets, such as, well, Sky. The story does not make the front page of Sky News (news.sky.com) so either it is your news judgement that is awry or Rupert Murdoch is part of a conspiracy to save the Mirror's blushes.
    naaaah.. more like every mention of hacking kicks Murdoch and NI in the goolies..again There are other battles to fight...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg

    Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.

    Yesterday you complained the BBC made you read all the way to the second sentence to discover the Mirror had settled.

    Look at other news outlets, such as, well, Sky. The story does not make the front page of Sky News (news.sky.com) so either it is your news judgement that is awry or Rupert Murdoch is part of a conspiracy to save the Mirror's blushes.
    Just possibly, there are other interesting events going on in the world at present, such as council by elections in Fife, that push the surprising news that tabloid journalists are low-life down the batting order.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg

    Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.

    I'm sure they're keeping their powder dry until the civil trial starts, and then it will be wall to wall coverage across all platforms. Not.

    The coverage of this story in other news outlets is, of course, overwhelming. It's just the BBC that is ignoring it.

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30933790
    The BBC does not make the point the Independent does, that MGN hacking was substantially greater than Murdoch press, instead focussing on the celebrity angle.
    MGN has not spent recent years parking its tanks on Auntie's lawn. So there is no agenda to go after it as a threat to their life force....
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Southampton Observer

    Now at work so I'll keep this short. I think Murphy is making things worse not better. Most politicians get a leaders honey moon. He is having a reverse honey moon. One reason may be that he is profoundly unattractive. I don't mean physically just that male machine politicians are a profound turn off for women.

    The figures from the MORI survey tend to bear out the theory that Murphy is part of Labour' s Many problems.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Been thinking about this Scottish problem and I just invented the SUP!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Another 3mil borrowed... was this to pay for Cameron's EU Budget Victory?


    Suzanne Evans ‏@SuzanneEvans1 · 18m18 minutes ago
    £1.7bn EU demand; £2.9bn added to National debt in direct consequence. From @standardnews #BetterOffOut pic.twitter.com/MW3olrFyIb



  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited January 2015
    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:

    Another 3mil borrowed... was this to pay for Cameron's EU Budget Victory?


    Suzanne Evans ‏@SuzanneEvans1 · 18m18 minutes ago
    £1.7bn EU demand; £2.9bn added to National debt in direct consequence. From @standardnews #BetterOffOut pic.twitter.com/MW3olrFyIb



    She's wrong, though (arguably - IANAA)

    It's largely an accounting charge, with no cash transferred. So it comes down to how you define national debt. But the government won't need to borrow any extra to pay for it.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    Never is a long time. That sort of law is always only one election away, you just need an angry enough population.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2015

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    In your opinion

    I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Indigo said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    Never is a long time.
    Ok not in your or my lifetime, nor anyone who is currently alive and of voting age.. Is that long enough?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015

    Indigo said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    Never is a long time.
    Ok not in your or my lifetime, nor anyone who is currently alive and of voting age.. Is that long enough?
    You might be right. Europe implodes. UKIP wins the election in 2020 and offers the population a referendum on it, population votes in favor. Not likely, but smug in the extreme to suggest its more than a heartbeat away. Putting that in context, Podemas didn't exists 9 months ago, and is probably going to win the next Spanish election.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Good morning, everyone.

    King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia is dead:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30945324
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    The commentary on the Kirkcaldy by-election result is a complete misinterpretation of the outcome. It is a massive swing of 13.9% to the SNP, as the by-election is effectively conducted on the AV system, whereas the original council election was STV, in which Labour was the clear winner. For what it's worth, given the typical low council by-election turnout, it is in line with the SNP's current massive lead in Scottish opinion polls. The latter, if it actually occurs on 7/5/15, would pose the sort of challenge to the current configuration of the UK as SF's sweep of nearly all the seats in the 26 counties did in 1918, which led to their liberation from Westminster rule less than 4 years later.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    isam said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    In your opinion

    I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
    I am sure you don't, and that's why the likes of you should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/22/cilla-black-settle-phone-hacking-damages-claim-mirror

    Funnily enough, the Guardian too makes no mention of MGN hacking being greeter than Murdoch press....
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    SquareRoot,

    "that's why the likes of you should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power."

    You've not quite got the hang of this democracy lark, have you?

    The important people make the decisions, the plebs suck it up. Interesting. And btw, I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but my vote is worth no more than any one else.

    I disagree with other things and sometimes find myself in a minority. Some people just won't be told.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    Never is a long time.
    Ok not in your or my lifetime, nor anyone who is currently alive and of voting age.. Is that long enough?
    You might be right. Europe implodes. UKIP wins the election in 2020 and offers the population a referendum on it, population votes in favor. Not likely, but smug in the extreme to suggest its more than a heartbeat away. Putting that in context, Podemas didn't exists 9 months ago, and is probably going to win the next Spanish election.
    If European living standards continue to flatline, or decline, then almost every basic assumption about politics will go out the window.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    @ Morris Dancer:

    I note the fawning in the media regarding the late King Abdullah. An interesting contrast with the attitude towards Iran, which while hardly an upholder of human rights, is a paragon of democracy compared to the despotic Saudi regime. There are no polls in the Arabian peninsula
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    In your opinion

    I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
    I am sure you don't, and that's why the likes of you should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power.

    isam said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    In your opinion

    I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
    I am sure you don't, and that's why the likes of you should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power.
    Really? Who made you the judge and jury of everything?

    Let me guess? You
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Dao, welcome to pb.com.

    I only checked the headline so can't comment on coverage generally, but Iran is still seen as an enemy. Why KSA, with its funding of lunatics around the world, is not is beyond me.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Sean_F said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    Never is a long time.
    Ok not in your or my lifetime, nor anyone who is currently alive and of voting age.. Is that long enough?
    You might be right. Europe implodes. UKIP wins the election in 2020 and offers the population a referendum on it, population votes in favor. Not likely, but smug in the extreme to suggest its more than a heartbeat away. Putting that in context, Podemas didn't exists 9 months ago, and is probably going to win the next Spanish election.
    If European living standards continue to flatline, or decline, then almost every basic assumption about politics will go out the window.
    People who spend their life in the (recently) peaceful UK have unrealistic expectation of how fast the world changes when people get unhappy. One glance at the policies of Podemas shows you a taste. Personally I think that if 1,000 extremists come back from Syria and there is a mainland terrorism campaign as a result, in a far more visceral and unpleasant way than the IRA managed, the views of the British public on all sorts of things will change very fast. I hope it doesn't come to that, but the prerequisites are starting to line up.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Steven Finn's back!
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited January 2015
    CD13 said:

    SquareRoot,

    "that's why the likes of you should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power."

    You've not quite got the hang of this democracy lark, have you?

    The important people make the decisions, the plebs suck it up. Interesting. And btw, I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but my vote is worth no more than any one else.

    I disagree with other things and sometimes find myself in a minority. Some people just won't be told.

    I think I have. You need 326MPs to vote for the death penalty and then the House of Lords.. I think democracy will stop it happening.

    If UKIP can get 326MP's all of whom support the death penalty then we will see.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    Talking about the Standard, there was a very amusing advert I saw yesterday.

    First Great Western is running one of those tedious campaigns with a model pretending to be an employee, and talking about her contribution to your life as a customer. Funny thing is she's a black lady called Tory.

    So you have lot's a nice photos of a pretty, industrious women with the strap lines

    "Tory's keeping you moving"
    "Tory's building a greater West"
    "Tory's investing in your future"

    ...couldn't have planned it better myself...

    ;)
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015

    CD13 said:

    SquareRoot,

    "that's why the likes of you should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power."

    You've not quite got the hang of this democracy lark, have you?

    The important people make the decisions, the plebs suck it up. Interesting. And btw, I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but my vote is worth no more than any one else.

    I disagree with other things and sometimes find myself in a minority. Some people just won't be told.

    I think I have. You need 326MPs to vote for the death penalty and then the House of Lords.. I think democracy will stop it happening.

    If UKIP gan get 326MP's then we will see.

    Not even close. How many MPs initially supported the AV referendum ? 57. It still happened. All you need is a government desperate for a coalition partner and all sorts of magic happens on relatively few votes. I personally don't want the death penalty either, but your high handed approach to what might prove to be the democratic will of the people is offensive.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    In your opinion

    I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
    Because it reverses the relationship between the State and the Citizen

    Giving the State the power to decide which of its Citizens can live or die would be an obscenity.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
    Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.

    I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Charles said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    In your opinion

    I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
    Because it reverses the relationship between the State and the Citizen

    Giving the State the power to decide which of its Citizens can live or die would be an obscenity.
    I agree, but that's democracy for you you. The people over time have been stupid enough to give the government all sorts of powers over them that they shouldn't have.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    Never is a long time.
    Ok not in your or my lifetime, nor anyone who is currently alive and of voting age.. Is that long enough?
    You might be right. Europe implodes. UKIP wins the election in 2020 and offers the population a referendum on it, population votes in favor. Not likely, but smug in the extreme to suggest its more than a heartbeat away. Putting that in context, Podemas didn't exists 9 months ago, and is probably going to win the next Spanish election.
    If European living standards continue to flatline, or decline, then almost every basic assumption about politics will go out the window.
    People who spend their life in the (recently) peaceful UK have unrealistic expectation of how fast the world changes when people get unhappy. One glance at the policies of Podemas shows you a taste. Personally I think that if 1,000 extremists come back from Syria and there is a mainland terrorism campaign as a result, in a far more visceral and unpleasant way than the IRA managed, the views of the British public on all sorts of things will change very fast. I hope it doesn't come to that, but the prerequisites are starting to line up.
    If I was Greek, I'd vote for Syriza.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Indigo said:

    CD13 said:

    SquareRoot,

    "that's why the likes of you should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power."

    You've not quite got the hang of this democracy lark, have you?

    The important people make the decisions, the plebs suck it up. Interesting. And btw, I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but my vote is worth no more than any one else.

    I disagree with other things and sometimes find myself in a minority. Some people just won't be told.

    I think I have. You need 326MPs to vote for the death penalty and then the House of Lords.. I think democracy will stop it happening.

    If UKIP gan get 326MP's then we will see.

    Not even close. How many MPs initially supported the AV referendum ? 57. It still happened. All you need is a government desperate for a coalition partner and all sorts of magic happens on relatively few votes. I personally don't want the death penalty either, but your high handed approach to what might prove to be the democratic will of the people is offensive.
    LOL AV isn't the death penalty.. Funny how there is so much talk of the death penalty in Amerca and the screams at the injustice of it (and rightly so ) and given the miscarriages of justice that go on daily both here and in the USA.. the death penalty isn't coming back, its final, and you can't row back from it.

    There will always be terrorist and mass murderers, doesn't mean we have to sink to their level.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Indigo said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    In your opinion

    I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
    Because it reverses the relationship between the State and the Citizen

    Giving the State the power to decide which of its Citizens can live or die would be an obscenity.
    I agree, but that's democracy for you you. The people over time have been stupid enough to give the government all sorts of powers over them that they shouldn't have.
    It took several hundred years of work to move from the tyranny of the Tudors to the current restraints on the executive... I'd rather we didn't throw it away (and, in fact, I'd want to strengthen the ability of parliament to hold the executive to account)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Charles said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    In your opinion

    I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
    Because it reverses the relationship between the State and the Citizen

    Giving the State the power to decide which of its Citizens can live or die would be an obscenity.
    So we should abolish the NHS ?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    AndyJS said:

    In the 1975 referendum Scotland was more anti-Europe than England.

    isam said:

    Telegraph Politics ‏@TelePolitics · 38m38 minutes ago
    What the SNP really wants is Mr Cameron back in No 10 http://tgr.ph/1JqKscm

    "The only goal that matters to the SNP is independence – and that means assembling a narrative of a Scotland suing for divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable political differences. Without a villain, Ms Sturgeon will not have much of a pantomime; so she needs Cameron, the Old Etonian with a Brasenose First, as prime minister. Ideally in coalition with Nigel Farage. And most of all, she wants his in-or-out referendum on the European Union. If England votes to leave and Scotland to stay, it would induce the constitutional crisis that the SNP needs. This is the new road map to independence.

    But for now, the SNP needs to win as many seats as possible – which means publicly entertaining the idea of coalition with Ed Miliband. Polls show that such an alliance would be the most popular election result in Scotland – which is precisely why, in the end, Ms Sturgeon can’t allow it to happen"

    SNP voters are more anti Europe than the Scottish population at large. If you love "big tent" politics then you have to love the SNP as the finest example.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Patrick said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
    Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.

    I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
    Philosophically I'd think about it as exile: the State has the right to say 'if you won't abide by the rules of our society, we have the right to exclude you from membership'.

    This translates as exile: either external (deportation...transportation being somewhat out of fashion at the moment) or internal (prison without parole).
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    Only just catching up on this, and it may have been noted before on here but:

    Rumour has it Labour might not go ahead with the TV debates ...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Indigo said:

    CD13 said:

    SquareRoot,

    "that's why the likes of you should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power."

    You've not quite got the hang of this democracy lark, have you?

    The important people make the decisions, the plebs suck it up. Interesting. And btw, I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but my vote is worth no more than any one else.

    I disagree with other things and sometimes find myself in a minority. Some people just won't be told.

    I think I have. You need 326MPs to vote for the death penalty and then the House of Lords.. I think democracy will stop it happening.

    If UKIP gan get 326MP's then we will see.

    Not even close. How many MPs initially supported the AV referendum ? 57. It still happened. All you need is a government desperate for a coalition partner and all sorts of magic happens on relatively few votes. I personally don't want the death penalty either, but your high handed approach to what might prove to be the democratic will of the people is offensive.
    I don't think the LiBDems were even that keen on AV - they wanted multi-member costituencies with STV

    I voted against AV. I might vote for MMC-STV
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015

    Indigo said:

    CD13 said:

    SquareRoot,

    "that's why the likes of you should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power."

    You've not quite got the hang of this democracy lark, have you?

    The important people make the decisions, the plebs suck it up. Interesting. And btw, I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but my vote is worth no more than any one else.

    I disagree with other things and sometimes find myself in a minority. Some people just won't be told.

    I think I have. You need 326MPs to vote for the death penalty and then the House of Lords.. I think democracy will stop it happening.

    If UKIP gan get 326MP's then we will see.

    Not even close. How many MPs initially supported the AV referendum ? 57. It still happened. All you need is a government desperate for a coalition partner and all sorts of magic happens on relatively few votes. I personally don't want the death penalty either, but your high handed approach to what might prove to be the democratic will of the people is offensive.
    LOL AV isn't the death penalty.. Funny how there is so much talk of the death penalty in Amerca and the screams at the injustice of it (and rightly so ) and given the miscarriages of justice that go on daily both here and in the USA.. the death penalty isn't coming back, its final, and you can't row back from it.

    There will always be terrorist and mass murderers, doesn't mean we have to sink to their level.
    Your sounding desperate, and illogical.

    You either believe in democracy or you don't. If you do you, have to accept that the people have the right to vote for stupid things, as they historically have done any number of times. The question isn't whether we have to sink their their level, clearly we don't, the question is will we sink to their level, and the answer if the population gets angry enough is yes. The emergence is Spain of a new political force that is going to win the next election because the population is angry is proof of that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    "Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists

    "Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.

    The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

    Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html

    Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
    In your opinion

    I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
    Because it reverses the relationship between the State and the Citizen

    Giving the State the power to decide which of its Citizens can live or die would be an obscenity.
    So we should abolish the NHS ?
    C-

    Disappointing. You can troll better than that.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    Mr. Dao, welcome to pb.com.

    I only checked the headline so can't comment on coverage generally, but Iran is still seen as an enemy. Why KSA, with its funding of lunatics around the world, is not is beyond me.

    Iran isn't our enemy, it is Israel's. Regional rival, supports Hezbollah and the Palestinians.

    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2015/01/22/the-great-iran-debate/
This discussion has been closed.