"that's why the likes of you should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power."
You've not quite got the hang of this democracy lark, have you?
The important people make the decisions, the plebs suck it up. Interesting. And btw, I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but my vote is worth no more than any one else.
I disagree with other things and sometimes find myself in a minority. Some people just won't be told.
I think I have. You need 326MPs to vote for the death penalty and then the House of Lords.. I think democracy will stop it happening.
If UKIP gan get 326MP's then we will see.
Not even close. How many MPs initially supported the AV referendum ? 57. It still happened. All you need is a government desperate for a coalition partner and all sorts of magic happens on relatively few votes. I personally don't want the death penalty either, but your high handed approach to what might prove to be the democratic will of the people is offensive.
LOL AV isn't the death penalty.. Funny how there is so much talk of the death penalty in Amerca and the screams at the injustice of it (and rightly so ) and given the miscarriages of justice that go on daily both here and in the USA.. the death penalty isn't coming back, its final, and you can't row back from it.
There will always be terrorist and mass murderers, doesn't mean we have to sink to their level.
Your sounding desperate, and illogical.
You either believe in democracy or you don't. I
Not too sure about that actually. It's also logical to half-believe in it. It works most of the time in many situations, but not all the time and not everywhere. It's not flawless, but it's pretty good. Democracy is also about pragmatism: getting the best possible system for a given situation (e.g. FPTP).
A limited democracy, especially one which restricts some freedoms in order to protect the greater ones, is a logical, consistent stance, however unpopular it is with some of the kipper bashers on here.
While he is right in much of his detail, he's overlooking the truth that Green supporters, like UKIP supporters, really aren't so interested in policy as in expressing an emotional allegiance.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
Anarchism was strong in parts of Spain during the Civil War. The Anarchists took the view that imprisoning someone for life was the very worst thing you could do, and that execution was more humane.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
In your opinion
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Because it reverses the relationship between the State and the Citizen
Giving the State the power to decide which of its Citizens can live or die would be an obscenity.
Sounds very high minded but its bullshit if the population vote for it in a referendum
Citizens who behead soldiers in the name of the enemy can do one
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
Not too sure about that actually. It's also logical to half-believe in it. It works most of the time in many situations, but not all the time and not everywhere. It's not flawless, but it's pretty good. Democracy is also about pragmatism: getting the best possible system for a given situation (e.g. FPTP).
A limited democracy, especially one which restricts some freedoms in order to protect the greater ones, is a logical, consistent stance, however unpopular it is with some of the kipper bashers on here.
I guess you can look at it two ways.
With our current systems if there are a chain of beheadings on mainland Britain and the newly formed PissOff Party is elected on a platform of restoring capital punishment and other over the top crackdowns, they are legally entitled to resile from the EHCR, leave the EU, and reintroduce capital punishment and whatever else they want to do. Democracy in action, the people are entitled, and able to vote for stupid things.
Philosophically I kind of agree with you, but not entirely, democracy is like free speech, as soon as its not full, you get into awkward questions about who gets to choose which bits you don't do, and on what basis, and its becomes the thin end of the wedge, what happens when you get a slightly unsavory government elected and they use the exceptions already granted as pretext and justification for new exceptions you don't like.
Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.
I agree with you antifrank.
And in the case of Islamist extremists it would make a martyr of them. However, I'm not getting into another of pb's turgid and often ill-informed debates on Islam. Ciao.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
Talking about the Standard, there was a very amusing advert I saw yesterday.
First Great Western is running one of those tedious campaigns with a model pretending to be an employee, and talking about her contribution to your life as a customer. Funny thing is she's a black lady called Tory.
So you have lot's a nice photos of a pretty, industrious women with the strap lines
"Tory's keeping you moving" "Tory's building a greater West" "Tory's investing in your future"
...couldn't have planned it better myself...
Wow. There were just three baby girls named "Tory" in 2013. If I were the paranoid sort, and given that this is a general election year, I would assume that this campaign was run by a Tory sympathiser.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
Talking about the Standard, there was a very amusing advert I saw yesterday.
First Great Western is running one of those tedious campaigns with a model pretending to be an employee, and talking about her contribution to your life as a customer. Funny thing is she's a black lady called Tory.
So you have lot's a nice photos of a pretty, industrious women with the strap lines
"Tory's keeping you moving" "Tory's building a greater West" "Tory's investing in your future"
...couldn't have planned it better myself...
Wow. There were just three baby girls named "Tory" in 2013. If I were the paranoid sort, and given that this is a general election year, I would assume that this campaign was run by a Tory sympathiser.
Indeed! That's a highly unusual spelling of Tori / Torie.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
In your opinion
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Because it reverses the relationship between the State and the Citizen
Giving the State the power to decide which of its Citizens can live or die would be an obscenity.
So we should abolish the NHS ?
C-
Disappointing. You can troll better than that.
Well tongue in ckeek Charles, but as we progress towards assisted death where will the lines be drawn ? And who's to decide judges or doctors or families ?
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.
It is however incredibly expensive in these times of austerity
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
Talking about the Standard, there was a very amusing advert I saw yesterday.
First Great Western is running one of those tedious campaigns with a model pretending to be an employee, and talking about her contribution to your life as a customer. Funny thing is she's a black lady called Tory.
So you have lot's a nice photos of a pretty, industrious women with the strap lines
"Tory's keeping you moving" "Tory's building a greater West" "Tory's investing in your future"
...couldn't have planned it better myself...
Wow. There were just three baby girls named "Tory" in 2013. If I were the paranoid sort, and given that this is a general election year, I would assume that this campaign was run by a Tory sympathiser.
Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.
Your opinion, not a fact
It's not something for me which is capable of argument, since it is part of my system of morality. A majority determining otherwise would not persuade me that I was wrong, merely that I was surrounded by an immoral majority.
Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.
Your opinion, not a fact
It's not something for me which is capable of argument, since it is part of my system of morality. A majority determining otherwise would not persuade me that I was wrong, merely that I was surrounded by an immoral majority.
Well that's your personal opinion and I don't say you are wrong to believe whatever you like but for people who commit terrorist acts, I would disagree that it was wrong to kill them, especially if they were British citizens... I'd probably let foreigners off with prison
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.
30 years would be a harsh punishment for a lot of murderers, and would have been considered harsh even when he had capital punishment (most murderers were spared the death penalty, and served about 12 years on average).
If we had capital punishment, you'd probably only have about half a dozen executions a year, so inevitably there'd be prolonged legal and ethical arguments about why X and not Y?
I think most people have no problem with the principle that some people merit execution. We just can't agree who.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.
It is however incredibly expensive in these times of austerity
Unless the deterrence effect means that fewer people actually commit murder and thereby reduce costs in the longer term. The problem that lots of people have with their "common sense" solutions is that they cannot see beyond the blindingly obvious. Using the Rigby case to support the return of capital punishment is a prime example of this.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.
"However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones"
Not necessarily. I would only impose it on such extreme cases, no reason why it cant be an option once in a century.
These men beheaded someone to make a political point. They wanted to be caught for the publicity they would get, so fuck em. I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.
Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.
Your opinion, not a fact
Oh Isam. Really and truly, those are words I last heard at school. Come on, grow up.
I am not sure who needs to grow up.
Everyone at almost every time thinks they are right, and the people in the previous generations are wrong. There have been many people who were believed moral and learned people in their day, who would be seen as the most unforgivable monsters were they alive now. We are in the same position now compared to the people yet to come. Moral absolutism is bunk, we will all be seen a monsters by succeeding generations, and I am sure we are seen that way now by other cultures. All we can to do is make the best job we can with the tools we have.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
l
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.
I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.
In which case, you are them.
I wasn't really telling you what to do by the way, just part despair and part friendly advice from an older person to someone young. As I've said before, 1 in 10 of your posts are incisive and intelligent. It's just advice, but if you counted to 30 every time before posting, and held back on 9 out of 10 of them, you'd be on track to win Sean T's coveted poster of the year award, especially given your views.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
l
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.
"However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones"
Not necessarily. I would only impose it on such extreme cases, no reason why it cant be an option once in a century.
These men beheaded someone to make a political point. They wanted to be caught for the publicity they would get, so fuck em. I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.
Are you seriously looking to become an elected representative of UKIP? Or is it a wind up?
On the Crowborough by-election: I know Jeannette Towey reasonably well, she'll be a good and independently-minded councillor. Quite a good showing for UKIP, though.
Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.
Will be interesting what those posters on here most vocal about that other paper will have to say about the Mirror and whether or not it should still be published.
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.
It is however incredibly expensive in these times of austerity
Unless the deterrence effect means that fewer people actually commit murder and thereby reduce costs in the longer term. The problem that lots of people have with their "common sense" solutions is that they cannot see beyond the blindingly obvious. Using the Rigby case to support the return of capital punishment is a prime example of this.
Not being able to read down a few posts to where I said I was personally against Capital Punishment is another failing What I said was it was fatuous to say it couldn't come back, you need an angry population, a party that wants their votes, and a vote in parliament, that's it. The rights and the wrong are really beside the point, the people will decide.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
l
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.
"However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones"
Not necessarily. I would only impose it on such extreme cases, no reason why it cant be an option once in a century.
These men beheaded someone to make a political point. They wanted to be caught for the publicity they would get, so fuck em. I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.
Are you seriously looking to become an elected representative of UKIP? Or is it a wind up?
"Further to my point about Murphy and women. I know that this is not Labour's biggest problem which is probably Milliband among men and women. How ever if you compare Murphy not with Sturgeon who is plus 47 per cent among women , or with Salmond who was always strong plus among women but even with Swinney and Harvie of the Greens then Murphy comes out badly."
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
l
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.
I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.
In which case, you are them.
I wasn't really telling you what to do by the way, just part despair and part friendly advice from an older person to someone young. As I've said before, 1 in 10 of your posts are incisive and intelligent. It's just advice, but if you counted to 30 every time before posting, and held back on 9 out of 10 of them, you'd be on track to win Sean T's coveted poster of the year award, especially given your views.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
l
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.
"However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones"
Not necessarily. I would only impose it on such extreme cases, no reason why it cant be an option once in a century.
These men beheaded someone to make a political point. They wanted to be caught for the publicity they would get, so fuck em. I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.
Are you seriously looking to become an elected representative of UKIP? Or is it a wind up?
One day yes, not this time. Why do you ask?
Because if you are I suggest that you think about what you put into print, unless you fancy appearing in the daily mail.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
The relatively high rate of suicide in prison would tend to support your final point.
While he is right in much of his detail, he's overlooking the truth that Green supporters, like UKIP supporters, really aren't so interested in policy as in expressing an emotional allegiance.
He's not the only one. There was a column in the Guardian from a Labour lefty giving Labour advice* on how to combat the Greens, which was identical in form and style to many that have been published in the Telegraph and elsewhere on how the Conservatives should win back voters lost to UKIP.
* Basically it boiled down to doing what the writer thinks they should have done already, which is often the way with these sorts of columns.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
l
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.
...
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocence
"However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones"
Not necessarily. I would only impose it on such extreme cases, no reason why it cant be an option once in a century.
These men beheaded someone to make a political point. They wanted to be caught for the publicity they would get, so fuck em. I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.
Are you seriously looking to become an elected representative of UKIP? Or is it a wind up?
One day yes, not this time. Why do you ask?
Because if you are I suggest that you think about what you put into print, unless you fancy appearing in the daily mail.
To be honest, one of the reasons I am considering blowing it out is that I like to say what I think and detest spin
I am not even anywhere near being a politician yet you are already advising caution, and saying I should toe the line as politicians do and have done for years... but the reason I want to get in to it is to shake things up. Id rather fail saying what I mean than succeed through cheap spin and a facade
Not too sure about that actually. It's also logical to half-believe in it. It works most of the time in many situations, but not all the time and not everywhere. It's not flawless, but it's pretty good. Democracy is also about pragmatism: getting the best possible system for a given situation (e.g. FPTP).
A limited democracy, especially one which restricts some freedoms in order to protect the greater ones, is a logical, consistent stance, however unpopular it is with some of the kipper bashers on here.
I guess you can look at it two ways.
With our current systems if there are a chain of beheadings on mainland Britain and the newly formed PissOff Party is elected on a platform of restoring capital punishment and other over the top crackdowns, they are legally entitled to resile from the EHCR, leave the EU, and reintroduce capital punishment and whatever else they want to do. Democracy in action, the people are entitled, and able to vote for stupid things.
Philosophically I kind of agree with you, but not entirely, democracy is like free speech, as soon as its not full, you get into awkward questions about who gets to choose which bits you don't do, and on what basis, and its becomes the thin end of the wedge, what happens when you get a slightly unsavory government elected and they use the exceptions already granted as pretext and justification for new exceptions you don't like.
I agree with this. The only defence is in trusting that the collective judgement of your fellow citizens will be sound. Or at least, only wrong temporarily.
This is a principle that is hard to stick to, particularly given the daily bits of evidence that challenge it, but the alternative is to believe that you personally have a special insight, denied to your fellow citizens, and the right to enforce that insight over your fellow citizens, by violence if necessary.
Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.
Will be interesting what those posters on here most vocal about that other paper will have to say about the Mirror and whether or not it should still be published.
Or they just might be hypocrites
The Lefty Mirror wasn't Hacking, it was 'investigative journalism'.
While he is right in much of his detail, he's overlooking the truth that Green supporters, like UKIP supporters, really aren't so interested in policy as in expressing an emotional allegiance.
I think there is something in that, the other problem is that the split in both cases has largely happened over something that is fundamental to the parties evolving identity, and so is to all intents non-negotiable.
UKIP largely have split from the Conservatives over social conservatism/liberalism, being nice and cuddly and socially liberal is key to the parties new image (it might change, but that is how it is at the moment), so the thing that the Conservatives would need to do to get UKIP voters back, viz. socially conservative policies, isn't on the table.
Labour are trying to look more financially responsible, so have largely signed up to austerity, the people peeling off to the Greens are the "magic money tree" contingent that don't see the need for austerity, to get them back Labour would have to abandon any pretense financial responsibility, so that isn't on the table either at the moment.
Politics being fluid I expect which ever party loses the election to abandon their current position and cast around for votes, Labour will probably head left to recapture the Greens, or the Tories will head right to recapture UKIP, either way the LDs will probably get a boost.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
Talking about the Standard, there was a very amusing advert I saw yesterday.
First Great Western is running one of those tedious campaigns with a model pretending to be an employee, and talking about her contribution to your life as a customer. Funny thing is she's a black lady called Tory.
So you have lot's a nice photos of a pretty, industrious women with the strap lines
"Tory's keeping you moving" "Tory's building a greater West" "Tory's investing in your future"
...couldn't have planned it better myself...
Wow. There were just three baby girls named "Tory" in 2013. If I were the paranoid sort, and given that this is a general election year, I would assume that this campaign was run by a Tory sympathiser.
Indeed! That's a highly unusual spelling of Tori / Torie.
It's a fairly standard abbreviation of Victoria though
BUT, the pro independence vote in Quebec in the first referendum was only 40%. The second was 49% plus.
Pro rata, if it is "like Quebec", a second independence referendum in Scotland ought to exceed 50% :-)
Also, "like Quebec", the Parti Quebecois polled 49% of the vote in the Quebec election following the 40% Yes vote in the referendum. So "like Quebec" may mean a very high SNP vote in May.
It may be "like Quebec", Carlotta-but perhaps not in the way you are imagining!
Their job is to hold the executive (who should be sorting the problems) to account. It's irrelevant whether the specific problem is one part of the country or other - it's good that the executive should be beaten up and cowed from time to time pour les encourager les autres
[Note: this recipe includes a healthy dash of idealism]
I think all those constituencies MPs who spend their time is local surgeries listening to Mrs Miggins complaining about the poor service the local Fire Brigade gave in retrieving her cat from a tree might wish it were so!
Sorry, Charles, you're wrong. There is NO MP job description, and in practice it's interpreted differently in up to 650 different ways, arising from the interaction of personal preference with voter preference with marginality. Perhaps there should be, but there is not.
Now at work so I'll keep this short. I think Murphy is making things worse not better. Most politicians get a leaders honey moon. He is having a reverse honey moon. One reason may be that he is profoundly unattractive. I don't mean physically just that male machine politicians are a profound turn off for women.
The figures from the MORI survey tend to bear out the theory that Murphy is part of Labour' s Many problems.
To compound matters Murphy made it clear that he viewed winning back the lost 190,000 older male voters, who had deserted SLAB, as the key to reviving SLAB's fortunes. Murphy is true to his word and is messaging directly to this group e.g. alcohol at football matches etc. He seems to have concluded that women will remain more loyal to SLAB, as they have done historically.
What Murphy seems to be ignoring is that the SNP surge is being led by women, they now account for 44% of SNP membership (up from 33% pre-surge). I think ignoring this fact could signal armageddon for SLAB. The polls also indicate that a much higher % of don't knows in Scotland are women - they are now faced with a choice of Sturgeon or Murphy/Milliband. Suffice to say M&M are doing little to reach out to this critical group of don't knows and soft SLAB supporters.
Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.
Yesterday you complained the BBC made you read all the way to the second sentence to discover the Mirror had settled.
Look at other news outlets, such as, well, Sky. The story does not make the front page of Sky News (news.sky.com) so either it is your news judgement that is awry or Rupert Murdoch is part of a conspiracy to save the Mirror's blushes.
naaaah.. more like every mention of hacking kicks Murdoch and NI in the goolies..again There are other battles to fight...
The BBC's heading for a Battle Royale with Amazon, Google and BT's broadcast operations.
BUT, the pro independence vote in Quebec in the first referendum was only 40%. The second was 49% plus.
Pro rata, if it is "like Quebec", a second independence referendum in Scotland ought to exceed 50% :-)
Also, "like Quebec", the Parti Quebecois polled 49% of the vote in the Quebec election following the 40% Yes vote in the referendum. So "like Quebec" may mean a very high SNP vote in May.
It may be "like Quebec", Carlotta-but perhaps not in the way you are imagining!
I think if capital punishment needs to be brought back, the conviction needs to be beyond all doubt - to take two examples the Lee Rigby murder was beyond resonable, and all doubt whereas I'd say Pistorius is beyond reasonable, but not all doubt.
Their job is to hold the executive (who should be sorting the problems) to account. It's irrelevant whether the specific problem is one part of the country or other - it's good that the executive should be beaten up and cowed from time to time pour les encourager les autres
[Note: this recipe includes a healthy dash of idealism]
I think all those constituencies MPs who spend their time is local surgeries listening to Mrs Miggins complaining about the poor service the local Fire Brigade gave in retrieving her cat from a tree might wish it were so!
Sorry, Charles, you're wrong. There is NO MP job description, and in practice it's interpreted differently in up to 650 different ways, arising from the interaction of personal preference with voter preference with marginality. Perhaps there should be, but there is not.
Of course there isn't a job description. But I was looking at the fundamental purpose of parliament: to hold the executive to account and for MPs to represent the interests of their constituents.
Sounds very high minded but its bullshit if the population vote for it in a treferendum
Citizens who behead soldiers in the name of the enemy can do one
Of course people have the right to sell themselves into slavery.
You asked why it was a problem: I explained it.
I didn't ask
Of course you didn't. At 8:24 you said "I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed"
I thought you might appreciate someone explaining it to you.
But perhaps you are happier not being challenged
Oh "killer" point Chas! A mortal blow for my argument!
I didn't ask, as I said
Not a killer point. Just an observation.
But there are people who prefer to remain in their comfort zone rather than debate. Sadly it appears you may be one of them.
Not at all, and you know that full well.. please stop being such a smart arse, its not a good look
I am not some gung ho maniac who thinks" if in doubt kill them" but in cases where there is no reasonable doubt I think they should be killed, and it seems more Londoners agree with me than do not
The commentary on the Kirkcaldy by-election result is a complete misinterpretation of the outcome. It is a massive swing of 13.9% to the SNP, as the by-election is effectively conducted on the AV system, whereas the original council election was STV, in which Labour was the clear winner. For what it's worth, given the typical low council by-election turnout, it is in line with the SNP's current massive lead in Scottish opinion polls. The latter, if it actually occurs on 7/5/15, would pose the sort of challenge to the current configuration of the UK as SF's sweep of nearly all the seats in the 26 counties did in 1918, which led to their liberation from Westminster rule less than 4 years later.
Thank goodness someone else spotted that. It's a key problem in interpreting Scottish cooncil by elections [edit] especially for replacing councillors who won 2nd or 3rd in the original vote.
Labour clearly isn't on 36, as they are level in the tables with the SNP in Scotland - so the sample is very very pro SLAB.
Anyone going to extract the English figures, my impression is that this poll is worse for Labour and slightly better for the Conservatives than the topline suggests. UKIP also are definitely treading water but re on more than 13% I think.
With the loss of Broon's incumbency possible making Kirkcaldy not quite the fortress it seemed, I took £11.11 for the SNP there last night. (9-2 Hills)
Only ONE man can save Scotland for Labour now - and it ain't Murphy or Miliband.
With the loss of Broon's incumbency possible making Kirkcaldy not quite the fortress it seemed, I took £11.11 for the SNP there last night. (9-2 Hills)
Only ONE man can save Scotland for Labour now - and it ain't Murphy or Miliband.
There seems to be a belief amongst some of our UKIP supporters on here that UKIP MPs will bring back the death penalty. Dear Chums, you are living in blissful ignorance of the reality on this. 100% of UKIP MPs oppose the death penalty. As a group of MPs they are more against the death penalty than Labour or the Conservatives.
Mark Reckless signed in November 2010 the all party motion for the abolition of the death penalty and in 2011 BBC quoted "Douglas Carswell MP agreed, saying, although he was firmly against the death penalty, he was in favour of Parliament debating it and would support a referendum on whether it should be brought back."
With the loss of Broon's incumbency possible making Kirkcaldy not quite the fortress it seemed, I took £11.11 for the SNP there last night. (9-2 Hills)
Only ONE man can save Scotland for Labour now - and it ain't Murphy or Miliband.
Oh? Pray tell ...
Unfortunately (For Scottish Labour) he's too busy at the UN ^_~
(I'm coming to the view that his speech DID actually save the union...)
Collapse in Lib Dem vote as soon as coalition took place - 4% in the poll snow is it ? Loss of Gordon for Scottish Labour - Miliband's approval ratings lower than Cameron Labour teaming up with the Conservatives in the indy ref The Scottish Conservative vote being the Scottish Conservative vote and never actually going up or down.
If only I'd got more on earlier and at longer odds - kicking myself for that !
If there was a string of rapes and murders of young boys by a serial killer who turned out to be a psychotic gay man, I'm sure there'd be a poll or 2 in the aftermath showing a majority in support for the recriminalisation of homosexuality.
If Valerie Solanas was still alive, out of prison and running her own little terrorist campaign, stabbing the likes of Damien Hirst, Martin Amis et al, there might even be a poll calling for female suffrage to be revoked.
Of course I believe in democracy; it's just not the same as mob rule -- especially when the mob is being whipped up by NeoConservative politicians who *want* the state to be more dominant, and civil liberties fewer, forever.
Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.
Your opinion, not a fact
It's not something for me which is capable of argument, since it is part of my system of morality. A majority determining otherwise would not persuade me that I was wrong, merely that I was surrounded by an immoral majority.
The argument of the religious nutter through the ages. The same argument that is currently used by a bunch of blokes in the middle east who think throwing gay men off high buildings is the right thing to do as it is part of their system of morality.
If only I'd got more on earlier and at longer odds - kicking myself for that !
Aren't we all! I did get on at some spectacular odds at the end of August, but only for small sums. Still, the way things are going it's going to be a very satisfactory election betting-wise.
The Conservatives are ahead in the unweighted sample - I don't recall seeing such a large effect - in either direction - from the weighting on the main party shares with Populus recently.
There seems to be a belief amongst some of our UKIP supporters on here that UKIP MPs will bring back the death penalty. Dear Chums, you are living in blissful ignorance of the reality on this. 100% of UKIP MPs oppose the death penalty. As a group of MPs they are more against the death penalty than Labour or the Conservatives.
Mark Reckless signed in November 2010 the all party motion for the abolition of the death penalty and in 2011 BBC quoted "Douglas Carswell MP agreed, saying, although he was firmly against the death penalty, he was in favour of Parliament debating it and would support a referendum on whether it should be brought back."
There seems to be a belief amongst some of our UKIP supporters on here that UKIP MPs will bring back the death penalty. Dear Chums, you are living in blissful ignorance of the reality on this. 100% of UKIP MPs oppose the death penalty. As a group of MPs they are more against the death penalty than Labour or the Conservatives.
Mark Reckless signed in November 2010 the all party motion for the abolition of the death penalty and in 2011 BBC quoted "Douglas Carswell MP agreed, saying, although he was firmly against the death penalty, he was in favour of Parliament debating it and would support a referendum on whether it should be brought back."
You appear to be a little hard of seeing today. There discussion was in the context of a referendum on bringing it back, on the basis of the poll in The Standard isam quoted earlier which said a clear majority of Londoners supported the death penalty. Carswell and apparently Farage now, believe in direct democracy, and hold referendums to see what the people think on various issues of the day, this being one of them.
The discussion of a party supporting the death penalty was in the context of a new Podemas type party that could spring up for explicitly that purpose in response to a chain of terrorists outrages or whatever.
Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.
Will be interesting what those posters on here most vocal about that other paper will have to say about the Mirror and whether or not it should still be published.
Or they just might be hypocrites
The Lefty Mirror wasn't Hacking, it was 'investigative journalism'.
I'm sure the usual leftie campaigners will be calling on companies to boycott advertising in the Mirror and Sunday Mirror any moment now, and thus drive the papers out of business. As surely their previous campaign was principled not political, and will apply equally to the similar behaviour of the MGN papers.
The Conservatives are ahead in the unweighted sample - I don't recall seeing such a large effect - in either direction - from the weighting on the main party shares with Populus recently.
They had to more than double the responses from council tenants in this sample. This might help to explain why they had to downweight Conservative Party identifiers so much.
A bit of an odd sample, then, but with the weightings acting to bring the headline results basically in the same ballpark as recent Populus polls.
We should only impose the death penalty when we're absolutely sure of guilt? The police were absolutely sure of Colin Stagg's 'guilt' as I recall, not to mention that poor guy whom the tabloids very nearly conspired to fit up for the Joanna Yates murder.
The Conservatives are ahead in the unweighted sample - I don't recall seeing such a large effect - in either direction - from the weighting on the main party shares with Populus recently.
They're slightly behind in the unweighted sample actually (by 3), but the point about weighting is simply that it adjusts to the demographics of the UK if the sample happens (as in this case) to have proportionately more ABC1 voters than there are nationally.
Nonetheless I don't see anything to alter the "Labour fractionally ahead" theme that's been the most accurate summary throughout recent months.
Labour clearly isn't on 36, as they are level in the tables with the SNP in Scotland - so the sample is very very pro SLAB.
Anyone going to extract the English figures, my impression is that this poll is worse for Labour and slightly better for the Conservatives than the topline suggests. UKIP also are definitely treading water but re on more than 13% I think.
The Scottish figures also have the Conservatives on 20%, so it's a Unionist friendly sample more than it is a SLAB friendly one, I think.
Of course there isn't a job description. But I was looking at the fundamental purpose of parliament: to hold the executive to account and for MPs to represent the interests of their constituents.
No, that's what you think the fundamental purpose ought to be, no?
I had a constituent yesterday tell me that the job of an MP is to represent the current views of constituents, whatever they may be and regardless of personal opinion - the example she gave was that if most voters in Broxtowe wanted to bring back flogging I should support that. I said that I thought my job if MP would be to consider constituency opinion and either follow it or explain why I wasn't following it, and voters could then decide if they accepted my views or not at the next election.
But she and I were merely saying what we think. I more or less agree with your view, though I think that "helping constituents with their problems" has become a de facto third part of the expected job, and applies in safe seats too. But others might disagree, and voters will vary their view over time. .
In this poll at least Green skews "young" - so is NOTA splitting Green younger, UKIP older? We know who tends to vote......
The Green vote normally skews a lot more to the young than in this Populus poll, which is 13% - 5% youngest to oldest. ~20% - ~2% is a more typical split.
You are absolutely right to point to the differential turnout - people with bets on the Green national vote share should take note...
In this poll at least Green skews "young" - so is NOTA splitting Green younger, UKIP older? We know who tends to vote......
The Green vote normally skews a lot more to the young than in this Populus poll, which is 13% - 5% youngest to oldest. ~20% - ~2% is a more typical split.
You are absolutely right to point to the differential turnout - people with bets on the Green national vote share should take note...
Agreed. The Green vote is also potentially dependent on a group who may well not be registered to vote. As far as I know none of the pollsters ask that question, but I could be wrong.
Of course there isn't a job description. But I was looking at the fundamental purpose of parliament: to hold the executive to account and for MPs to represent the interests of their constituents.
No, that's what you think the fundamental purpose ought to be, no?
I had a constituent yesterday tell me that the job of an MP is to represent the current views of constituents, whatever they may be and regardless of personal opinion - the example she gave was that if most voters in Broxtowe wanted to bring back flogging I should support that. I said that I thought my job if MP would be to consider constituency opinion and either follow it or explain why I wasn't following it, and voters could then decide if they accepted my views or not at the next election.
But she and I were merely saying what we think. I more or less agree with your view, though I think that "helping constituents with their problems" has become a de facto third part of the expected job, and applies in safe seats too. But others might disagree, and voters will vary their view over time. .
Didn't Edmund Burke sort this one out some time ago in his speech to the electors of Bristol?
Didn't Edmund Burke sort this one out some time ago in his speech to the electors of Bristol?
Not really. Burke expressed his opinion, which is widely-shared, including broadly by me. It's by no means either the law or how it's always done in practice.
"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
In your opinion
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
If we bring back the death penalty would we have to leave the EU??
Comments
A limited democracy, especially one which restricts some freedoms in order to protect the greater ones, is a logical, consistent stance, however unpopular it is with some of the kipper bashers on here.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/greens-are-joke-and-labour-shouldnt-be-frightened-saying-so
While he is right in much of his detail, he's overlooking the truth that Green supporters, like UKIP supporters, really aren't so interested in policy as in expressing an emotional allegiance.
Citizens who behead soldiers in the name of the enemy can do one
You asked why it was a problem: I explained it.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.
With our current systems if there are a chain of beheadings on mainland Britain and the newly formed PissOff Party is elected on a platform of restoring capital punishment and other over the top crackdowns, they are legally entitled to resile from the EHCR, leave the EU, and reintroduce capital punishment and whatever else they want to do. Democracy in action, the people are entitled, and able to vote for stupid things.
Philosophically I kind of agree with you, but not entirely, democracy is like free speech, as soon as its not full, you get into awkward questions about who gets to choose which bits you don't do, and on what basis, and its becomes the thin end of the wedge, what happens when you get a slightly unsavory government elected and they use the exceptions already granted as pretext and justification for new exceptions you don't like.
And in the case of Islamist extremists it would make a martyr of them. However, I'm not getting into another of pb's turgid and often ill-informed debates on Islam. Ciao.
maybe they were Japanese.
If we had capital punishment, you'd probably only have about half a dozen executions a year, so inevitably there'd be prolonged legal and ethical arguments about why X and not Y?
I think most people have no problem with the principle that some people merit execution. We just can't agree who.
Not necessarily. I would only impose it on such extreme cases, no reason why it cant be an option once in a century.
These men beheaded someone to make a political point. They wanted to be caught for the publicity they would get, so fuck em. I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.
My guess is a Labour copywriter's typo. It was supposed to be 'Tony'
Everyone at almost every time thinks they are right, and the people in the previous generations are wrong. There have been many people who were believed moral and learned people in their day, who would be seen as the most unforgivable monsters were they alive now. We are in the same position now compared to the people yet to come. Moral absolutism is bunk, we will all be seen a monsters by succeeding generations, and I am sure we are seen that way now by other cultures. All we can to do is make the best job we can with the tools we have.
I wasn't really telling you what to do by the way, just part despair and part friendly advice from an older person to someone young. As I've said before, 1 in 10 of your posts are incisive and intelligent. It's just advice, but if you counted to 30 every time before posting, and held back on 9 out of 10 of them, you'd be on track to win Sean T's coveted poster of the year award, especially given your views.
Or they just might be hypocrites
"Further to my point about Murphy and women. I know that this is not Labour's biggest problem which is probably Milliband among men and women. How ever if you compare Murphy not with Sturgeon who is plus 47 per cent among women , or with Salmond who was always strong plus among women but even with Swinney and Harvie of the Greens then Murphy comes out badly."
Tim's come back as a Scottish woman!
* Basically it boiled down to doing what the writer thinks they should have done already, which is often the way with these sorts of columns.
This is a principle that is hard to stick to, particularly given the daily bits of evidence that challenge it, but the alternative is to believe that you personally have a special insight, denied to your fellow citizens, and the right to enforce that insight over your fellow citizens, by violence if necessary.
UKIP largely have split from the Conservatives over social conservatism/liberalism, being nice and cuddly and socially liberal is key to the parties new image (it might change, but that is how it is at the moment), so the thing that the Conservatives would need to do to get UKIP voters back, viz. socially conservative policies, isn't on the table.
Labour are trying to look more financially responsible, so have largely signed up to austerity, the people peeling off to the Greens are the "magic money tree" contingent that don't see the need for austerity, to get them back Labour would have to abandon any pretense financial responsibility, so that isn't on the table either at the moment.
Politics being fluid I expect which ever party loses the election to abandon their current position and cast around for votes, Labour will probably head left to recapture the Greens, or the Tories will head right to recapture UKIP, either way the LDs will probably get a boost.
I thought you might appreciate someone explaining it to you.
But perhaps you are happier not being challenged
"like Quebec"
BUT, the pro independence vote in Quebec in the first referendum was only 40%.
The second was 49% plus.
Pro rata, if it is "like Quebec", a second independence referendum in Scotland ought to exceed 50% :-)
Also, "like Quebec", the Parti Quebecois polled 49% of the vote in the Quebec election following the 40% Yes vote in the referendum. So "like Quebec" may mean a very high SNP vote in May.
It may be "like Quebec", Carlotta-but perhaps not in the way you are imagining!
The GBP dips below $1.50 and the Euro nears $0.9
I didn't ask, as I said
What Murphy seems to be ignoring is that the SNP surge is being led by women, they now account for 44% of SNP membership (up from 33% pre-surge). I think ignoring this fact could signal armageddon for SLAB. The polls also indicate that a much higher % of don't knows in Scotland are women - they are now faced with a choice of Sturgeon or Murphy/Milliband. Suffice to say M&M are doing little to reach out to this critical group of don't knows and soft SLAB supporters.
But there are people who prefer to remain in their comfort zone rather than debate. Sadly it appears you may be one of them.
Hence I am not so surprised the swing here is much higher than those recorded in Midlothian by-election in December.
I am not some gung ho maniac who thinks" if in doubt kill them" but in cases where there is no reasonable doubt I think they should be killed, and it seems more Londoners agree with me than do not
Con 279-285
Lab 279-285
LD 27-29
UKIP 7.5-9.5
SNP 31-33
From memory I think that is Con and Lab both down 3 from yesterday, and the SNP up 3 (although they'd been at 29-31 for a while before yesterday).
I'm still keeping my SNP Buy (which I got at 20.5) open.
Anyone going to extract the English figures, my impression is that this poll is worse for Labour and slightly better for the Conservatives than the topline suggests. UKIP also are definitely treading water but re on more than 13% I think.
Only ONE man can save Scotland for Labour now - and it ain't Murphy or Miliband.
Mark Reckless signed in November 2010 the all party motion for the abolition of the death penalty and in 2011 BBC quoted "Douglas Carswell MP agreed, saying, although he was firmly against the death penalty, he was in favour of Parliament debating it and would support a referendum on whether it should be brought back."
(I'm coming to the view that his speech DID actually save the union...)
In this poll at least Green skews "young" - so is NOTA splitting Green younger, UKIP older? We know who tends to vote......
Reasons:
Collapse in Lib Dem vote as soon as coalition took place - 4% in the poll snow is it ?
Loss of Gordon for Scottish Labour - Miliband's approval ratings lower than Cameron
Labour teaming up with the Conservatives in the indy ref
The Scottish Conservative vote being the Scottish Conservative vote and never actually going up or down.
If only I'd got more on earlier and at longer odds - kicking myself for that !
If Valerie Solanas was still alive, out of prison and running her own little terrorist campaign, stabbing the likes of Damien Hirst, Martin Amis et al, there might even be a poll calling for female suffrage to be revoked.
Of course I believe in democracy; it's just not the same as mob rule -- especially when the mob is being whipped up by NeoConservative politicians who *want* the state to be more dominant, and civil liberties fewer, forever.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10920178/Nigel-Farage-promises-referendums-to-restore-trust-in-Parliament.html
The discussion of a party supporting the death penalty was in the context of a new Podemas type party that could spring up for explicitly that purpose in response to a chain of terrorists outrages or whatever.
A bit of an odd sample, then, but with the weightings acting to bring the headline results basically in the same ballpark as recent Populus polls.
"I think you are missing the bigger picture....... "
Pray tell :-)
Nonetheless I don't see anything to alter the "Labour fractionally ahead" theme that's been the most accurate summary throughout recent months.
new thread
I had a constituent yesterday tell me that the job of an MP is to represent the current views of constituents, whatever they may be and regardless of personal opinion - the example she gave was that if most voters in Broxtowe wanted to bring back flogging I should support that. I said that I thought my job if MP would be to consider constituency opinion and either follow it or explain why I wasn't following it, and voters could then decide if they accepted my views or not at the next election.
But she and I were merely saying what we think. I more or less agree with your view, though I think that "helping constituents with their problems" has become a de facto third part of the expected job, and applies in safe seats too. But others might disagree, and voters will vary their view over time. .
You are absolutely right to point to the differential turnout - people with bets on the Green national vote share should take note...
Just saying....................................