Checks in. Oh it's Israel/Palestine today. Checks out.
Leon is trying his best - and his best is usually good enough - to move things back to more comfortable anti-migrant territory. Perhaps give it a few minutes.
The hilarious thing is Labour trying to argue it’s the improving economy that has allowed them to do it. No-one believes that justification, it is a political panic move.
Yes, everyone can feel the booming economy and massive growth rates that allow her to do this, thanks to Labour’s superb management of the nation; soon she will be lowering taxes as well, to thank all the hard working families
Are they going to reverse the farmer inheritance tax change next?
They might as well just hand over the keys to Downing Street to Farage if they do.
Highly unlikely I would have though. The Farming lobby is far less effective than the wealthy old lobby.
This isn't the wealthy old lobby. It's poorer pensioners complaining to canvassers in the local elections. Their wealthy peers just came along for the ride.
Checks in. Oh it's Israel/Palestine today. Checks out.
Leon is trying his best - and his best is usually good enough - to move things back to more comfortable anti-migrant territory. Perhaps give it a few minutes.
Looks like I’ve been trumped by the Chancellor proving that this is the Worst Government Ever
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
Have they assassinated Thumberg yet by mistake?
No, they've intercepted her selfie boat and are escorting her to show her videos of the 7 October Hamas atrocities.
Perhaps you could do with seeing the same videos.
You think it is ok for a government to board a ship in international waters?
If it is heading to that nation's waters? Yes.
Plenty of nations intercept illegal ships in international waters if they can.
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
One of the main differences between the two sets of leaders is that the Israeli government does what it can to protect its people. Hamas do the very opposite with their people.
Bibi didn't seem to be particularly interested in the live hostages, and was quite comfortable for them to become collateral damage in his grand plan.
Yep, as ever, it's Israel who are to blame for Hamas invading Israel and taking hostages.
Not distinguishing between Netanyahu and Israel? Rookie error.
You think Netanyahu is to blame for 7 October?
You replied to a post referring to Netanyahu by immediately.conflating him with Israel. In any case I’d imagine someone who conspired to support Hamas and was in ultimate command of Israel’s security on October 7th would have a few questions to answer. Lots of Israelis seem to agree.
Hang on, even if Netanyahu wasn't in charge of Israel, someone else would be having to deal with the hostage situation. My guess is, they would not be begging Hamas to release them and offering to do whatever it takes.
Of course not, but I am surprised Israeli Special Forces were not sent into Gaza to retrieve live hostages on October 8th. I believe that is what the families believed would happen.
The cyberNats have an interesting take on the Reeves U-turn
“This is a measure of Labour's desperation to deflect from the kidnapping of the crew of a British flagged vessel in Gazan territorial waters by the Israeli junta...
The whole Israel/Palestine kerfuffle is like some weird soap opera mixed with reality TV show, with billions of viewers absurdly invested in characters who are borderline fictional. It even has stage villains - from Netanyahu to Hamas - allowing the punters to boo and hiss
I wonder if it provides some psychological service to these people. Maybe a comforting distraction from frightening realities closer to home?
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity. It is never justified or necessary. Peace is possible, but it will require Israel to stop building settlements on Palestinian land, stop Israel invading its neighbour's territory and stop Israel dehumanising the Palestinian population.
And what should Hamas do? You've conveniently forgotten their role completely.
Hamas is a proscribed group that is on its last legs and doesn’t speak for the Palestinian people, in Gaza or elsewhere. They should release all the hostages.
So given that we know the Gvt will be forced to go further on defence because of NATO, what is going to give? It’s got to be some sort of “wealth tax” in the autumn hasn’t it? Which will probably then damage growth further.
Raising the question who is going to work down these pits? There's almost nobody left who is experienced and still capable. Let alone the logistics. It's not Old Labour it's nostalgia.
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
One of the main differences between the two sets of leaders is that the Israeli government does what it can to protect its people. Hamas do the very opposite with their people.
Bibi didn't seem to be particularly interested in the live hostages, and was quite comfortable for them to become collateral damage in his grand plan.
Yep, as ever, it's Israel who are to blame for Hamas invading Israel and taking hostages.
Not distinguishing between Netanyahu and Israel? Rookie error.
You think Netanyahu is to blame for 7 October?
You replied to a post referring to Netanyahu by immediately.conflating him with Israel. In any case I’d imagine someone who conspired to support Hamas and was in ultimate command of Israel’s security on October 7th would have a few questions to answer. Lots of Israelis seem to agree.
Hang on, even if Netanyahu wasn't in charge of Israel, someone else would be having to deal with the hostage situation. My guess is, they would not be begging Hamas to release them and offering to do whatever it takes.
Of course not, but I am surprised Israeli Special Forces were not sent into Gaza to retrieve live hostages on October 8th. I believe that is what the families believed would happen.
Bit of wishful thinking isn't it? One of the charges against Netanyahu is for the abysmal performance of the Israeli intelligence services. And yet you believe all Israel needed to do was pop in and out with a few special forces troops to retrieve hundreds of hostages, and yes, bodies, and all would have been well?
Insanity. I do not condone what Israel is doing now. Those in power have blood on their hands for sure. And yet I don't know how you realistically defeat Hamas. This isn't working. The idea seems to be to squeeze Gaza until Hamas (a) surrenders or (b) the populace overthrow them. Otherwise what is left for Israel? You can keep bombing rubble but what's the point? Bomber command essentially ran out of targets in Germany in 1945.
Checks in. Oh it's Israel/Palestine today. Checks out.
Leon is trying his best - and his best is usually good enough - to move things back to more comfortable anti-migrant territory. Perhaps give it a few minutes.
He's on about Greta Thunberg now which is checks nores- an Israel misbehaviour story. Remember that Turkish boat in the 2010s when they killed all the peace campaigners.
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
One of the main differences between the two sets of leaders is that the Israeli government does what it can to protect its people. Hamas do the very opposite with their people.
Bibi didn't seem to be particularly interested in the live hostages, and was quite comfortable for them to become collateral damage in his grand plan.
Yep, as ever, it's Israel who are to blame for Hamas invading Israel and taking hostages.
Not distinguishing between Netanyahu and Israel? Rookie error.
You think Netanyahu is to blame for 7 October?
You replied to a post referring to Netanyahu by immediately.conflating him with Israel. In any case I’d imagine someone who conspired to support Hamas and was in ultimate command of Israel’s security on October 7th would have a few questions to answer. Lots of Israelis seem to agree.
Hang on, even if Netanyahu wasn't in charge of Israel, someone else would be having to deal with the hostage situation. My guess is, they would not be begging Hamas to release them and offering to do whatever it takes.
Of course not, but I am surprised Israeli Special Forces were not sent into Gaza to retrieve live hostages on October 8th. I believe that is what the families believed would happen.
Man, why didn’t the Israelis just think of sending in the Special Forces? Seriously would have been so simple grabbing 251 people from unknown locations, all split up, in tunnels, buildings all over a large area of land, guarded like the Crown Jewels.
They would have lost hundreds if not thousands of special forces and loads of palaestinians would still have been killed.
Gaza isn’t Entebbe where they could fly in to deal with a small terrorist force in a secure area. It’s not going into a desert camp to grab one or two hostages.
How about “why didn’t Hamas give up all the hostages early on when it was clear that Israel were coming for the whole of Gaza in revenge?”
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
One of the main differences between the two sets of leaders is that the Israeli government does what it can to protect its people. Hamas do the very opposite with their people.
Bibi didn't seem to be particularly interested in the live hostages, and was quite comfortable for them to become collateral damage in his grand plan.
Yep, as ever, it's Israel who are to blame for Hamas invading Israel and taking hostages.
Not distinguishing between Netanyahu and Israel? Rookie error.
You think Netanyahu is to blame for 7 October?
You replied to a post referring to Netanyahu by immediately.conflating him with Israel. In any case I’d imagine someone who conspired to support Hamas and was in ultimate command of Israel’s security on October 7th would have a few questions to answer. Lots of Israelis seem to agree.
Hang on, even if Netanyahu wasn't in charge of Israel, someone else would be having to deal with the hostage situation. My guess is, they would not be begging Hamas to release them and offering to do whatever it takes.
Of course not, but I am surprised Israeli Special Forces were not sent into Gaza to retrieve live hostages on October 8th. I believe that is what the families believed would happen.
They were too dispersed and embedded in tunnels, private homes, hospitals, and schools.
They weren't all holed up in a compound which could have been targeted by SF.
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
One of the main differences between the two sets of leaders is that the Israeli government does what it can to protect its people. Hamas do the very opposite with their people.
Bibi didn't seem to be particularly interested in the live hostages, and was quite comfortable for them to become collateral damage in his grand plan.
Yep, as ever, it's Israel who are to blame for Hamas invading Israel and taking hostages.
Not distinguishing between Netanyahu and Israel? Rookie error.
You think Netanyahu is to blame for 7 October?
You replied to a post referring to Netanyahu by immediately.conflating him with Israel. In any case I’d imagine someone who conspired to support Hamas and was in ultimate command of Israel’s security on October 7th would have a few questions to answer. Lots of Israelis seem to agree.
Hang on, even if Netanyahu wasn't in charge of Israel, someone else would be having to deal with the hostage situation. My guess is, they would not be begging Hamas to release them and offering to do whatever it takes.
Of course not, but I am surprised Israeli Special Forces were not sent into Gaza to retrieve live hostages on October 8th. I believe that is what the families believed would happen.
Bit of wishful thinking isn't it? One of the charges against Netanyahu is for the abysmal performance of the Israeli intelligence services. And yet you believe all Israel needed to do was pop in and out with a few special forces troops to retrieve hundreds of hostages, and yes, bodies, and all would have been well?
Insanity. I do not condone what Israel is doing now. Those in power have blood on their hands for sure. And yet I don't know how you realistically defeat Hamas. This isn't working. The idea seems to be to squeeze Gaza until Hamas (a) surrenders or (b) the populace overthrow them. Otherwise what is left for Israel? You can keep bombing rubble but what's the point? Bomber command essentially ran out of targets in Germany in 1945.
The longer Bibi keeps bombing, the longer he remains a free masn. It is a very simple sum.
The cyberNats have an interesting take on the Reeves U-turn
“This is a measure of Labour's desperation to deflect from the kidnapping of the crew of a British flagged vessel in Gazan territorial waters by the Israeli junta...
The whole Israel/Palestine kerfuffle is like some weird soap opera mixed with reality TV show, with billions of viewers absurdly invested in characters who are borderline fictional. It even has stage villains - from Netanyahu to Hamas - allowing the punters to boo and hiss
I wonder if it provides some psychological service to these people. Maybe a comforting distraction from frightening realities closer to home?
It even animates the PB Centrist Dads
The SNP can't criticise because they also u-turned on their cut to PAWHP (the Scottish equivalent).
The fact that the Scottish Government - usually big fans of universal benefits - have gone through the same purgatory on it shows what a silly benefit it is.
Raising the question who is going to work down these pits? There's almost nobody left who is experienced and still capable. Let alone the logistics. It's not Old Labour it's nostalgia.
Children. Cuts the schools budget at a stroke too.
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
The Israeli government's job is to protect the Israeli citizens lives first, and do what it can to minimise innocent Palestinian deaths without compromising the legitimate military objective of defeating Hamas.
If Palestinians die, it is due primarily to Hamas refusing to surrender and other nations refusing refuge to innocents caught in the middle. It is not Israel's primary responsibility to prevent Palestinian deaths. It's primary responsibility is to achieve the military objective first and foremost.
Ps I've said I'd like to see as many innocent Palestinians get refuge from Gaza in Egypt to avoid the war zone, as happens in other conflicts globally. Sadly they're kettled in, something I oppose. Those who support kettling of innocents are showing callous disregard for their lives, not me.
I'm interested in how you've come to such a lopsided view of Israel/Palestine. Your stuff on this topic reads like the ravings of a ultra-zionist zealot who considers Arabs to be inferior to Jews.
But I'm not going with that. It doesn't fit with the rest of your posting which is resolutely anti-racist.
So what I think is, you've got yourself a romantic view of Israel and this, combined with you always liking to take a strong position on something and your somewhat botlike debating style, is what's creating the impression of fanaticism. Fair?
Raising the question who is going to work down these pits? There's almost nobody left who is experienced and still capable. Let alone the logistics. It's not Old Labour it's nostalgia.
A friend who was a mining engineer at local collieries when they closed has had a second career from which he has subsequently retired and he is now 85.
We would have to import the expertise. I'm sure there would be no problem doing that...
@Malmesbury - thanks for the stuff on Decker and Functionalism earlier - sorry not to have responded earlier but I was called away. ("Decker" was, of copurse, the name of the character in Blade Runner - I wonder if Philip K Dick knew about Functionalism......)
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
The Israeli government's job is to protect the Israeli citizens lives first, and do what it can to minimise innocent Palestinian deaths without compromising the legitimate military objective of defeating Hamas.
If Palestinians die, it is due primarily to Hamas refusing to surrender and other nations refusing refuge to innocents caught in the middle. It is not Israel's primary responsibility to prevent Palestinian deaths. It's primary responsibility is to achieve the military objective first and foremost.
Ps I've said I'd like to see as many innocent Palestinians get refuge from Gaza in Egypt to avoid the war zone, as happens in other conflicts globally. Sadly they're kettled in, something I oppose. Those who support kettling of innocents are showing callous disregard for their lives, not me.
I'm interested in how you've come to such a lopsided view of Israel/Palestine. Your stuff on this topic reads like the ravings of a ultra-zionist zealot who considers Arabs to be inferior to Jews.
But I'm not going with that. It doesn't fit with the rest of your posting which is resolutely anti-racist.
So what I think is, you've got yourself a romantic view of Israel and this, combined with you always liking to take a strong position on something and your somewhat botlike debating style, is what's creating the impression of fanaticism. Fair?
You're never weaker than when you adopt a cause because you think it aligns with leftist causes but don't, because it's not your thing so you shouldn't feel bad about it, have the slightest idea or understand the matter at hand.
As an aside, when I was younger I wanted to go into tunnelling (*). One thing that amazes me still is that they can drill tunnels for many miles and end up only a few centimetres out of line. Even in ye olden days, where they often dug tunnels from shafts every few hundred yards, and dug small initial drifts instead of the full tunnel, it was amazing.
But the really amazing thing are the maps of mines, e.g. coal. Not only do they show, to apparently quite high accuracy, the position of the workings, but they can also be objects of beauty. And all done manually, without modern stuff like lasers.
(Somewhere I've got a book on surveying for tunnellers, written in Victorian times.)
Incidentally, there's an online official map of all known old coal workings. I particularly like the ones to the west of Buxton in the Peak District, where the hollows in the ground are still well fenced off.
(*) Yes, I wanted to bore as a profession. Now it's just a hobby...
That's a great map. You can see the close correlation with development in and around Edinburgh and the location of old mines. It's quite a big problem for developers.
I've got a good friend currently working 1km below the North Sea. Mad.
Network Rail have a *lot* of parallel-to-the-line routes which could be used for all kinds of beneficial things, but which they keep fenced off. I have a multiuser path that could take me all the way to (mainline) Alfreton Station but which stops half-a-mile short, because Network Rail keep a parallel track fenced off.
So it is necessary to do battle with dual carriageways or dangerous narrow roads, and huge hills (the EMM goes through the flat valley).
So no one uses it to get to the station. The close by area of potential users has about 200k people in it.
But they won't. They choose, as we know, to block up bridges rather than let them be a public benefit. It's all hidden in plain sight.
There are several aspects to this. One is that these parallel routes are often needed for maintenance access, and opening it up to the public *really* inhibits that - as the public don't like 'their' routes being closed. Another is that a few of the public are gits, and Network Rail already has a significant problem with trespass. And if some scrote goes on the railway line and gets killed, then NR gets the blame. Another is cost: opening up that parallel route for use by the public will cost money as well as the inconvenience, and sometimes a fair amount of money - especially if structures need making safe. Another is access: how do you get the public to the beginning of the route at other end, if it is surrounded by private land?
Perhaps in the case you mention it is feasible. Often it is nowhere near as easy as proponents suppose.
I'm not sure on the maintenance point.
ISTM that a lot of places to be maintained are by maintenance peeps travelling down a public road or right of way, and I don't the difference with putting a fence in and creating a (say) Restricted Byway (walking / wheeling / cycling), which the Network Rail people can use.
Not everywhere, but there are enough for it to make a large difference eg to fill gaps in networks.
In the case I mention there is already a multiuser trail in place, with a bit of footpath at the end.
As to how to create a new one, there are powers such as Creation of a PROW by agreement, or by order, under Sections 25 and 26 of the Highways Act 1980. There are also separate provision for creation of cycle paths (which I would have to look up). If necessary CPOs are available. Or (I think) creation of permissive paths under Sustainable Farming arrangements *.
The blocks are Network Rail, and also a cultural squint in Local Highways Authorities where they are quite happy to use CPO to make road wider or traffic islands larger, but never for footpaths or other PROWs. It needs equality implanting in the culture.
I am aware of one exception where a high quality cycleway was created by the Road Builders, but its buried in Laura Laker's book and they only did it because too many cyclists were using the road and they wanted to shift them.
* The Govt are redoing these, and I don't know what will happen yet. This was one of the better things done under BoJo.
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
One of the main differences between the two sets of leaders is that the Israeli government does what it can to protect its people. Hamas do the very opposite with their people.
Bibi didn't seem to be particularly interested in the live hostages, and was quite comfortable for them to become collateral damage in his grand plan.
Yep, as ever, it's Israel who are to blame for Hamas invading Israel and taking hostages.
Not distinguishing between Netanyahu and Israel? Rookie error.
You think Netanyahu is to blame for 7 October?
You replied to a post referring to Netanyahu by immediately.conflating him with Israel. In any case I’d imagine someone who conspired to support Hamas and was in ultimate command of Israel’s security on October 7th would have a few questions to answer. Lots of Israelis seem to agree.
Hang on, even if Netanyahu wasn't in charge of Israel, someone else would be having to deal with the hostage situation. My guess is, they would not be begging Hamas to release them and offering to do whatever it takes.
Of course not, but I am surprised Israeli Special Forces were not sent into Gaza to retrieve live hostages on October 8th. I believe that is what the families believed would happen.
Man, why didn’t the Israelis just think of sending in the Special Forces? Seriously would have been so simple grabbing 251 people from unknown locations, all split up, in tunnels, buildings all over a large area of land, guarded like the Crown Jewels.
They would have lost hundreds if not thousands of special forces and loads of palaestinians would still have been killed.
Gaza isn’t Entebbe where they could fly in to deal with a small terrorist force in a secure area. It’s not going into a desert camp to grab one or two hostages.
How about “why didn’t Hamas give up all the hostages early on when it was clear that Israel were coming for the whole of Gaza in revenge?”
Because Hamas are a death cult who couldn't care less how many innocent Gazans die. THe death of Gazans by Israel is a Recruiting Sergeant for Hamas. Why do you people assume a negotiation with Hamas works like a negotiatuion with an elected democracy?
Should have used the political capital to scrap the triple lock and link to CPI only.
Would have saved more in the long run, no immediate hit to pensioners as no one off reduction, changes still keep pace with inflation etc.
Scrapping the triple lock would have burnt even more political capital . I’m afraid the country is being held hostage by most pensioners who will destroy any party who dares mess with their income .
# Apologies to any pensioners in here who aren’t part of the pensioner mafia!
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
One of the main differences between the two sets of leaders is that the Israeli government does what it can to protect its people. Hamas do the very opposite with their people.
Bibi didn't seem to be particularly interested in the live hostages, and was quite comfortable for them to become collateral damage in his grand plan.
Yep, as ever, it's Israel who are to blame for Hamas invading Israel and taking hostages.
Not distinguishing between Netanyahu and Israel? Rookie error.
You think Netanyahu is to blame for 7 October?
You replied to a post referring to Netanyahu by immediately.conflating him with Israel. In any case I’d imagine someone who conspired to support Hamas and was in ultimate command of Israel’s security on October 7th would have a few questions to answer. Lots of Israelis seem to agree.
Hang on, even if Netanyahu wasn't in charge of Israel, someone else would be having to deal with the hostage situation. My guess is, they would not be begging Hamas to release them and offering to do whatever it takes.
Of course not, but I am surprised Israeli Special Forces were not sent into Gaza to retrieve live hostages on October 8th. I believe that is what the families believed would happen.
Man, why didn’t the Israelis just think of sending in the Special Forces? Seriously would have been so simple grabbing 251 people from unknown locations, all split up, in tunnels, buildings all over a large area of land, guarded like the Crown Jewels.
They would have lost hundreds if not thousands of special forces and loads of palaestinians would still have been killed.
Gaza isn’t Entebbe where they could fly in to deal with a small terrorist force in a secure area. It’s not going into a desert camp to grab one or two hostages.
How about “why didn’t Hamas give up all the hostages early on when it was clear that Israel were coming for the whole of Gaza in revenge?”
Because Hamas are a death cult who couldn't care less how many innocent Gazans die. THe death of Gazans by Israel is a Recruiting Sergeant for Hamas. Why do you people assume a negotiation with Hamas works like a negotiatuion with an elected democracy?
This is true. And round and round it goes. But what is the alternative. Wait for the Gazans to vote out Hamas. Do they actually want to do that? If so then it validates those who say Free Palestine from Hamas, if not, then the war become yet more legitimate.
Reopening coal for power is stupid on so many levels. Bad for the environment, expensive, and so backwards-looking as to make me wonder when Farage is going to call for young boys to become chimney sweeps.
It's insane.
Farage is appealing to those stupid idiots who think the past was a better place; that look back longingly to the days of smog and the great stink.
(Having said that, coal mining on a much smaller scale, for non power generation, might be doable. And I am *generally* in favour of steelmaking, especially speciality steels.)
Should have used the political capital to scrap the triple lock and link to CPI only.
Would have saved more in the long run, no immediate hit to pensioners as no one off reduction, changes still keep pace with inflation etc.
Scrapping the triple lock would have burnt even more political capital . I’m afraid the country is being held hostage by most pensioners who will destroy any party who dares mess with their income .
# Apologies to any pensioners in here who aren’t part of the pensioner mafia!
This pensioner supports the previous change in WFP but it was hamfisted and inept in its implementation
An interesting 4 mile walk this, exploring some of our Rights of Way network in the other direction. We have enough round here to create a really good start to an away from road network, with a modicum of investment. All I want is 5% of the budget from any road scheme, and 5% of the Highways budget, since Public Rights of Way *are* highways.
I met a chap in at least his mid-70s, who said he likes to get out and do 6 miles (ie 2 hours) twice a week.
So given that we know the Gvt will be forced to go further on defence because of NATO, what is going to give? It’s got to be some sort of “wealth tax” in the autumn hasn’t it? Which will probably then damage growth further.
Anyone got any magic beans?
Just put up income tax, like they should have done last year. They’ll take even more of a hit now from doing so, but this was always the way to do it, they just wimped out because of their foolish manifesto pledge.
I don't like the look of this situation in Los Angeles, at all.
It looks very much like an accelerated, partly staged symbolic spectacle, to possibly make other politics easier. You almost feel that some Trumpists have read Guy Debord's "Society of the Spectacle". In his case though, the spectacles were intended as precursors to structural political changes, and then leftwing Revolution. The Trunpists may be trying the same with rightwing spectacle
Yes. Reichstag fire moment to come. This is a practice.
The Nazis were masters of mass media techniques, too, ofcourse. I was amazed to see how just how modern their campaigning material looked n the '30s, in a documentary recently.
They would distribute pictures of Hitler with very little detail on them, to news kiosk sellers, for instance. Just a very stylised "Hitler" in a very modern, rather than gothic logo, and a mysterious picture of Hitler, looking like an actor in a roll-neck jumper, on top.
The hilarious thing is Labour trying to argue it’s the improving economy that has allowed them to do it. No-one believes that justification, it is a political panic move.
Yes, everyone can feel the booming economy and massive growth rates that allow her to do this, thanks to Labour’s superb management of the nation; soon she will be lowering taxes as well, to thank all the hard working families
Raising the question who is going to work down these pits? There's almost nobody left who is experienced and still capable. Let alone the logistics. It's not Old Labour it's nostalgia.
Children. Cuts the schools budget at a stroke too.
We'd have to drag them down from the chimneys first.
Reopening coal for power is stupid on so many levels. Bad for the environment, expensive, and so backwards-looking as to make me wonder when Farage is going to call for young boys to become chimney sweeps.
It's insane.
Farage is appealing to those stupid idiots who think the past was a better place; that look back longingly to the days of smog and the great stink.
(Having said that, coal mining on a much smaller scale, for non power generation, might be doable. And I am *generally* in favour of steelmaking, especially speciality steels.)
Such tomfoolery worked in rustbelt USA on a voter level. It will work in rustbelt Wales too. Any high-burn Welsh anthacite will be recovered by open cast means. The cost to open deep mines is just too expensive.
Reopening coal for power is stupid on so many levels. Bad for the environment, expensive, and so backwards-looking as to make me wonder when Farage is going to call for young boys to become chimney sweeps.
It's insane.
Farage is appealing to those stupid idiots who think the past was a better place; that look back longingly to the days of smog and the great stink.
(Having said that, coal mining on a much smaller scale, for non power generation, might be doable. And I am *generally* in favour of steelmaking, especially speciality steels.)
Using our own coal in Drax would probably release less carbon in sum than shipping over and burning American wood pellets.
£35k is just crazy. What proportion of those getting it have no dependents, no housing costs? Why can't the mum working 40 hours a week on minimum wage - with two toddlers - get the same?
As an aside, when I was younger I wanted to go into tunnelling (*). One thing that amazes me still is that they can drill tunnels for many miles and end up only a few centimetres out of line. Even in ye olden days, where they often dug tunnels from shafts every few hundred yards, and dug small initial drifts instead of the full tunnel, it was amazing.
But the really amazing thing are the maps of mines, e.g. coal. Not only do they show, to apparently quite high accuracy, the position of the workings, but they can also be objects of beauty. And all done manually, without modern stuff like lasers.
(Somewhere I've got a book on surveying for tunnellers, written in Victorian times.)
Incidentally, there's an online official map of all known old coal workings. I particularly like the ones to the west of Buxton in the Peak District, where the hollows in the ground are still well fenced off.
(*) Yes, I wanted to bore as a profession. Now it's just a hobby...
That's a great map. You can see the close correlation with development in and around Edinburgh and the location of old mines. It's quite a big problem for developers.
I've got a good friend currently working 1km below the North Sea. Mad.
Network Rail have a *lot* of parallel-to-the-line routes which could be used for all kinds of beneficial things, but which they keep fenced off. I have a multiuser path that could take me all the way to (mainline) Alfreton Station but which stops half-a-mile short, because Network Rail keep a parallel track fenced off.
So it is necessary to do battle with dual carriageways or dangerous narrow roads, and huge hills (the EMM goes through the flat valley).
So no one uses it to get to the station. The close by area of potential users has about 200k people in it.
But they won't. They choose, as we know, to block up bridges rather than let them be a public benefit. It's all hidden in plain sight.
There are several aspects to this. One is that these parallel routes are often needed for maintenance access, and opening it up to the public *really* inhibits that - as the public don't like 'their' routes being closed. Another is that a few of the public are gits, and Network Rail already has a significant problem with trespass. And if some scrote goes on the railway line and gets killed, then NR gets the blame. Another is cost: opening up that parallel route for use by the public will cost money as well as the inconvenience, and sometimes a fair amount of money - especially if structures need making safe. Another is access: how do you get the public to the beginning of the route at other end, if it is surrounded by private land?
Perhaps in the case you mention it is feasible. Often it is nowhere near as easy as proponents suppose.
I'm not sure on the maintenance point.
ISTM that a lot of places to be maintained are by maintenance peeps travelling down a public road or right of way, and I don't the difference with putting a fence in and creating a (say) Restricted Byway (walking / wheeling / cycling), which the Network Rail people can use.
Not everywhere, but there are enough for it to make a large difference eg to fill gaps in networks.
In the case I mention there is already a multiuser trail in place, with a bit of footpath at the end.
As to how to create a new one, there are powers such as Creation of a PROW by agreement, or by order, under Sections 25 and 26 of the Highways Act 1980. There are also separate provision for creation of cycle paths (which I would have to look up). If necessary CPOs are available. Or (I think) creation of permissive paths under Sustainable Farming arrangements *.
The blocks are Network Rail, and also a cultural squint in Local Highways Authorities where they are quite happy to use CPO to make road wider or traffic islands larger, but never for footpaths or other PROWs. It needs equality implanting in the culture.
I am aware of one exception where a high quality cycleway was created by the Road Builders, but its buried in Laura Laker's book and they only did it because too many cyclists were using the road and they wanted to shift them.
* The Govt are redoing these, and I don't know what will happen yet. This was one of the better things done under BoJo.
I think the 'blocking' by National Rail, as I show above, can be very reasonable from their perspective. But you show part of the point well: "...which the Network Rail people can use." In other words, they become the lesser user. It becomes a cycle path (I'd *much* prefer the emphasis to be multi-user path) that NR can occasionally use. And which people then complain endlessly about NR using.
Having known maintenance bods working for NR subcontractors, the access point is *very* apt. Especially where the route can be used by vehicles.
But put simply: railway lines and people really do not get along well. Especially main lines and busy ones.
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
One of the main differences between the two sets of leaders is that the Israeli government does what it can to protect its people. Hamas do the very opposite with their people.
Bibi didn't seem to be particularly interested in the live hostages, and was quite comfortable for them to become collateral damage in his grand plan.
Yep, as ever, it's Israel who are to blame for Hamas invading Israel and taking hostages.
Not distinguishing between Netanyahu and Israel? Rookie error.
You think Netanyahu is to blame for 7 October?
You replied to a post referring to Netanyahu by immediately.conflating him with Israel. In any case I’d imagine someone who conspired to support Hamas and was in ultimate command of Israel’s security on October 7th would have a few questions to answer. Lots of Israelis seem to agree.
Hang on, even if Netanyahu wasn't in charge of Israel, someone else would be having to deal with the hostage situation. My guess is, they would not be begging Hamas to release them and offering to do whatever it takes.
Of course not, but I am surprised Israeli Special Forces were not sent into Gaza to retrieve live hostages on October 8th. I believe that is what the families believed would happen.
Man, why didn’t the Israelis just think of sending in the Special Forces? Seriously would have been so simple grabbing 251 people from unknown locations, all split up, in tunnels, buildings all over a large area of land, guarded like the Crown Jewels.
They would have lost hundreds if not thousands of special forces and loads of palaestinians would still have been killed.
Gaza isn’t Entebbe where they could fly in to deal with a small terrorist force in a secure area. It’s not going into a desert camp to grab one or two hostages.
How about “why didn’t Hamas give up all the hostages early on when it was clear that Israel were coming for the whole of Gaza in revenge?”
Because Hamas are a death cult who couldn't care less how many innocent Gazans die. THe death of Gazans by Israel is a Recruiting Sergeant for Hamas. Why do you people assume a negotiation with Hamas works like a negotiatuion with an elected democracy?
This is true. And round and round it goes. But what is the alternative. Wait for the Gazans to vote out Hamas. Do they actually want to do that? If so then it validates those who say Free Palestine from Hamas, if not, then the war become yet more legitimate.
Fair enough, but you are entering Barty territory where you can't put an acceptable number on collateral deaths until Hamas are destroyed.
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
The Israeli government's job is to protect the Israeli citizens lives first, and do what it can to minimise innocent Palestinian deaths without compromising the legitimate military objective of defeating Hamas.
If Palestinians die, it is due primarily to Hamas refusing to surrender and other nations refusing refuge to innocents caught in the middle. It is not Israel's primary responsibility to prevent Palestinian deaths. It's primary responsibility is to achieve the military objective first and foremost.
Ps I've said I'd like to see as many innocent Palestinians get refuge from Gaza in Egypt to avoid the war zone, as happens in other conflicts globally. Sadly they're kettled in, something I oppose. Those who support kettling of innocents are showing callous disregard for their lives, not me.
I'm interested in how you've come to such a lopsided view of Israel/Palestine. Your stuff on this topic reads like the ravings of a ultra-zionist zealot who considers Arabs to be inferior to Jews.
But I'm not going with that. It doesn't fit with the rest of your posting which is resolutely anti-racist.
So what I think is, you've got yourself a romantic view of Israel and this, combined with you always liking to take a strong position on something and your somewhat botlike debating style, is what's creating the impression of fanaticism. Fair?
You're never weaker than when you adopt a cause because you think it aligns with leftist causes but don't, because it's not your thing so you shouldn't feel bad about it, have the slightest idea or understand the matter at hand.
Hello Topping. Let me just finish with Bart then we can have a chat if you're still around.
Reopening coal for power is stupid on so many levels. Bad for the environment, expensive, and so backwards-looking as to make me wonder when Farage is going to call for young boys to become chimney sweeps.
It's insane.
Farage is appealing to those stupid idiots who think the past was a better place; that look back longingly to the days of smog and the great stink.
(Having said that, coal mining on a much smaller scale, for non power generation, might be doable. And I am *generally* in favour of steelmaking, especially speciality steels.)
Using our own coal in Drax would probably release less carbon in sum than shipping over and burning American wood pellets.
Do you have figures for that 'probably'? Anyway, Drax is a dead-end idea, designed just to keep the plant running as long as possible. Instead, compare to gas and renewables.
Raising the question who is going to work down these pits? There's almost nobody left who is experienced and still capable. Let alone the logistics. It's not Old Labour it's nostalgia.
Children. Cuts the schools budget at a stroke too.
We'd have to drag them down from the chimneys first.
And we will need them for the army. A tricky balance.
I've been wondering when some idiot would propose reopening the pits.
Well there are three problems with that to begin with.
There are no longer any pits to reopen.
There are no longer any miners to work in them.
There are no longer any coal fired power stations to burn the coal in.
Now perhaps things are different in the Welsh valleys but I doubt many people in Yorkshire and the Midlands want their local environments to be trashed to provide jobs for immigrant miners to extract coal for the Scunthorpe steelworks.
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
The Israeli government's job is to protect the Israeli citizens lives first, and do what it can to minimise innocent Palestinian deaths without compromising the legitimate military objective of defeating Hamas.
If Palestinians die, it is due primarily to Hamas refusing to surrender and other nations refusing refuge to innocents caught in the middle. It is not Israel's primary responsibility to prevent Palestinian deaths. It's primary responsibility is to achieve the military objective first and foremost.
Ps I've said I'd like to see as many innocent Palestinians get refuge from Gaza in Egypt to avoid the war zone, as happens in other conflicts globally. Sadly they're kettled in, something I oppose. Those who support kettling of innocents are showing callous disregard for their lives, not me.
I'm interested in how you've come to such a lopsided view of Israel/Palestine. Your stuff on this topic reads like the ravings of a ultra-zionist zealot who considers Arabs to be inferior to Jews.
But I'm not going with that. It doesn't fit with the rest of your posting which is resolutely anti-racist.
So what I think is, you've got yourself a romantic view of Israel and this, combined with you always liking to take a strong position on something and your somewhat botlike debating style, is what's creating the impression of fanaticism. Fair?
You're never weaker than when you adopt a cause because you think it aligns with leftist causes but don't, because it's not your thing so you shouldn't feel bad about it, have the slightest idea or understand the matter at hand.
Hello Topping. Let me just finish with Bart then we can have a chat if you're still around.
You take your time. Google will help although it's no match for actually having an opinion on any given matter. But sure, go for it.
75% of OAPs get the winter fuel allowance, as I predicted at the time, this would happen and it won't end up saving any money at all. You might as well as just kept it as a universal benefit and find ways to tax rich OAPs via other means.
I don't like the look of this situation in Los Angeles, at all.
It looks very much like an accelerated, partly staged symbolic spectacle, to possibly make other politics easier. You almost feel that some Trumpists have read Guy Debord's "Society of the Spectacle". In his case though, the spectacles were intended as precursors to structural political changes, and then leftwing Revolution. The Trunpists may be trying the same with rightwing spectacle
Yes. Reichstag fire moment to come. This is a practice.
The Nazis were masters of mass media techniques, too, ofcourse. I was amazed to see how just how modern their campaigning material looked n the '30s, in a documentary recently.
They would distribute pictures of Hitler with very little detail on them, to news kiosk sellers, for instance. Just a very stylised "Hitler" in a very modern, rather than gothic logo, and a mysterious picture of Hitler, looking like an actor in a roll-neck jumper, on top.
There's also a very widespread tradition in the USA of eugenics propaganda, that will be in Trump and Maga's head somewhere.
We are seeing plenty of the "more white babies" stuff even in the UK already. It's a parallel track.
When the Nazis set out to kill disabled people, it was portrayed as mercy killing with soft-soap films made by Goebbels' friends.
Our outdated planning system has held us back for too long.
Not anymore.
Today we’re announcing a new government-built AI tool that will help planning officers cut red tape, speed up decisions, and unlock homes for hard-working people through our Plan for Change.
I've been wondering when some idiot would propose reopening the pits.
Well there are three problems with that to begin with.
There are no longer any pits to reopen.
There are no longer any miners to work in them.
There are no longer any coal fired power stations to burn the coal in.
Now perhaps things are different in the Welsh valleys but I doubt many people in Yorkshire and the Midlands want their local environments to be trashed to provide jobs for immigrant miners to extract coal for the Scunthorpe steelworks.
I wonder if Lee Anderson has discussed it with him - that *would* be interesting.
I hope some journo or other asks Anderson the question.
Our outdated planning system has held us back for too long.
Not anymore.
Today we’re announcing a new government-built AI tool that will help planning officers cut red tape, speed up decisions, and unlock homes for hard-working people through our Plan for Change.
AI says murder all the home owners and build on their land.
An interesting 4 mile walk this, exploring some of our Rights of Way network in the other direction. We have enough round here to create a really good start to an away from road network, with a modicum of investment. All I want is 5% of the budget from any road scheme, and 5% of the Highways budget, since Public Rights of Way *are* highways.
I met a chap in at least his mid-70s, who said he likes to get out and do 6 miles (ie 2 hours) twice a week.
The new Caxton Gibbett to Black Cat near me is costing £1 billion. 5% of that is £50 million. I *very* much doubt that £50 million is being spent on non-car user improvements (though it may well have been on the A14 upgrade, where some excellent and useful paths were put in alongside parts of the road).
But as I've said before, any large project should have a certain proportion of the budget (5% may be a good base) put aside for all environmental mitigations and access improvements. The groups can then argue over how that is spent. But that's much better than the open-ended scheme we tend to have now...
I've been wondering when some idiot would propose reopening the pits.
Well there are three problems with that to begin with.
There are no longer any pits to reopen.
There are no longer any miners to work in them.
There are no longer any coal fired power stations to burn the coal in.
Now perhaps things are different in the Welsh valleys but I doubt many people in Yorkshire and the Midlands want their local environments to be trashed to provide jobs for immigrant miners to extract coal for the Scunthorpe steelworks.
Or those nice trails made out from the old railway lines to the pits being reopened as a railway...
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
One of the main differences between the two sets of leaders is that the Israeli government does what it can to protect its people. Hamas do the very opposite with their people.
Bibi didn't seem to be particularly interested in the live hostages, and was quite comfortable for them to become collateral damage in his grand plan.
Yep, as ever, it's Israel who are to blame for Hamas invading Israel and taking hostages.
Not distinguishing between Netanyahu and Israel? Rookie error.
You think Netanyahu is to blame for 7 October?
You replied to a post referring to Netanyahu by immediately.conflating him with Israel. In any case I’d imagine someone who conspired to support Hamas and was in ultimate command of Israel’s security on October 7th would have a few questions to answer. Lots of Israelis seem to agree.
Hang on, even if Netanyahu wasn't in charge of Israel, someone else would be having to deal with the hostage situation. My guess is, they would not be begging Hamas to release them and offering to do whatever it takes.
Of course not, but I am surprised Israeli Special Forces were not sent into Gaza to retrieve live hostages on October 8th. I believe that is what the families believed would happen.
Man, why didn’t the Israelis just think of sending in the Special Forces? Seriously would have been so simple grabbing 251 people from unknown locations, all split up, in tunnels, buildings all over a large area of land, guarded like the Crown Jewels.
They would have lost hundreds if not thousands of special forces and loads of palaestinians would still have been killed.
Gaza isn’t Entebbe where they could fly in to deal with a small terrorist force in a secure area. It’s not going into a desert camp to grab one or two hostages.
How about “why didn’t Hamas give up all the hostages early on when it was clear that Israel were coming for the whole of Gaza in revenge?”
Because Hamas are a death cult who couldn't care less how many innocent Gazans die. THe death of Gazans by Israel is a Recruiting Sergeant for Hamas. Why do you people assume a negotiation with Hamas works like a negotiatuion with an elected democracy?
This is true. And round and round it goes. But what is the alternative. Wait for the Gazans to vote out Hamas. Do they actually want to do that? If so then it validates those who say Free Palestine from Hamas, if not, then the war become yet more legitimate.
Fair enough, but you are entering Barty territory where you can't put an acceptable number on collateral deaths until Hamas are destroyed.
Well, not to rehearse arguments from months and years ago (but hey, it's PB), we didn't put an acceptable number of germans we were happy to kill to win WWII.
I don't happen to think that the Israeli strategy is particularly successful. They are operating back in areas they first cleared months and months ago. Whatever the composition of the casualty numbers, Hamas still seems to be in control after a year and a half of fighting.
But Israel believes it is in an existential struggle. For me this last is key in understanding their approach and the condemnation they just about universally (or at least globally) receive. We in the West (and in the East for that matter) just can't relate to an existential fight. All our operations are localised, far away, and even if we, cough, cough, were to lose to someone like the Taliban, actually it doesn't affect Mrs Smith buying her tomatoes in Tescos.
@Malmesbury - thanks for the stuff on Decker and Functionalism earlier - sorry not to have responded earlier but I was called away. ("Decker" was, of copurse, the name of the character in Blade Runner - I wonder if Philip K Dick knew about Functionalism......)
All completely made up by Heinlein - but he was talking about an undercurrent of "we should hand everything to apolitical technocrats"
Checks in. Oh it's Israel/Palestine today. Checks out.
Leon is trying his best - and his best is usually good enough - to move things back to more comfortable anti-migrant territory. Perhaps give it a few minutes.
Looks like I’ve been trumped by the Chancellor proving that this is the Worst Government Ever
I didn't realize you were particularly invested in the pensioners winter fuel allowance. There's no Muslim or Migrant angle here as far as I can see.
I've been wondering when some idiot would propose reopening the pits.
Well there are three problems with that to begin with.
There are no longer any pits to reopen.
There are no longer any miners to work in them.
There are no longer any coal fired power stations to burn the coal in.
Now perhaps things are different in the Welsh valleys but I doubt many people in Yorkshire and the Midlands want their local environments to be trashed to provide jobs for immigrant miners to extract coal for the Scunthorpe steelworks.
He's selling a dream.
It's essentially a sophisticated scam. "Give me your vote" could read like "send me a thousand quid" "and "you get lots of deep mines or £1,000,000 from the Ivory Coast lottery" (delete as appropriate).
Checks in. Oh it's Israel/Palestine today. Checks out.
Leon is trying his best - and his best is usually good enough - to move things back to more comfortable anti-migrant territory. Perhaps give it a few minutes.
Looks like I’ve been trumped by the Chancellor proving that this is the Worst Government Ever
I didn't realize you were particularly invested in the pensioners winter fuel allowance. There's no Muslim or Migrant angle here as far as I can see.
There's a "My god this government is Fucking Terrible" angle, that's for sure
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
The Israeli government's job is to protect the Israeli citizens lives first, and do what it can to minimise innocent Palestinian deaths without compromising the legitimate military objective of defeating Hamas.
If Palestinians die, it is due primarily to Hamas refusing to surrender and other nations refusing refuge to innocents caught in the middle. It is not Israel's primary responsibility to prevent Palestinian deaths. It's primary responsibility is to achieve the military objective first and foremost.
Ps I've said I'd like to see as many innocent Palestinians get refuge from Gaza in Egypt to avoid the war zone, as happens in other conflicts globally. Sadly they're kettled in, something I oppose. Those who support kettling of innocents are showing callous disregard for their lives, not me.
I'm interested in how you've come to such a lopsided view of Israel/Palestine. Your stuff on this topic reads like the ravings of a ultra-zionist zealot who considers Arabs to be inferior to Jews.
But I'm not going with that. It doesn't fit with the rest of your posting which is resolutely anti-racist.
So what I think is, you've got yourself a romantic view of Israel and this, combined with you always liking to take a strong position on something and your somewhat botlike debating style, is what's creating the impression of fanaticism. Fair?
You're never weaker than when you adopt a cause because you think it aligns with leftist causes but don't, because it's not your thing so you shouldn't feel bad about it, have the slightest idea or understand the matter at hand.
Hello Topping. Let me just finish with Bart then we can have a chat if you're still around.
You take your time. Google will help although it's no match for actually having an opinion on any given matter. But sure, go for it.
I don't like the look of this situation in Los Angeles, at all.
It looks very much like an accelerated, partly staged symbolic spectacle, to possibly make other politics easier. You almost feel that some Trumpists have read Guy Debord's "Society of the Spectacle". In his case though, the spectacles were intended as precursors to structural political changes, and then leftwing Revolution. The Trunpists may be trying the same with rightwing spectacle
Yes. Reichstag fire moment to come. This is a practice.
The Nazis were masters of mass media techniques, too, ofcourse. I was amazed to see how just how modern their campaigning material looked n the '30s, in a documentary recently.
They would distribute pictures of Hitler with very little detail on them, to news kiosk sellers, for instance. Just a very stylised "Hitler" in a very modern, rather than gothic logo, and a mysterious picture of Hitler, looking like an actor in a roll-neck jumper, on top.
There's also a very widespread tradition in the USA of eugenics propaganda, that will be in Trump and Maga's head somewhere.
We are seeing plenty of the "more white babies" stuff even in the UK already. It's a parallel track.
When the Nazis set out to kill disabled people, it was portrayed as mercy killing with soft-soap films made by Goebbels' friends.
When a nurse told me, to my face, that my mother should die, she (the nurse) used exactly the language the T4 advocates used.
Checks in. Oh it's Israel/Palestine today. Checks out.
Leon is trying his best - and his best is usually good enough - to move things back to more comfortable anti-migrant territory. Perhaps give it a few minutes.
Looks like I’ve been trumped by the Chancellor proving that this is the Worst Government Ever
I didn't realize you were particularly invested in the pensioners winter fuel allowance. There's no Muslim or Migrant angle here as far as I can see.
There's a "My god this government is Fucking Terrible" angle, that's for sure
Utterly shambolic, like a slo-mo Truss
A more toxic, pungent Truss with far more and longer lasting damage. Further and faster with the destruction of the UK
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
The Israeli government's job is to protect the Israeli citizens lives first, and do what it can to minimise innocent Palestinian deaths without compromising the legitimate military objective of defeating Hamas.
If Palestinians die, it is due primarily to Hamas refusing to surrender and other nations refusing refuge to innocents caught in the middle. It is not Israel's primary responsibility to prevent Palestinian deaths. It's primary responsibility is to achieve the military objective first and foremost.
Ps I've said I'd like to see as many innocent Palestinians get refuge from Gaza in Egypt to avoid the war zone, as happens in other conflicts globally. Sadly they're kettled in, something I oppose. Those who support kettling of innocents are showing callous disregard for their lives, not me.
I'm interested in how you've come to such a lopsided view of Israel/Palestine. Your stuff on this topic reads like the ravings of a ultra-zionist zealot who considers Arabs to be inferior to Jews.
But I'm not going with that. It doesn't fit with the rest of your posting which is resolutely anti-racist.
So what I think is, you've got yourself a romantic view of Israel and this, combined with you always liking to take a strong position on something and your somewhat botlike debating style, is what's creating the impression of fanaticism. Fair?
Maybe its personal.
My best friend when I was growing up was a Jew whose grandmother died in the Holocaust.
His family regularly travel to Kibbutz in Israel, one or which was one of the places targeted by Hamas on 7 October.
There are a plethora of Arab nations for Arabs to live in. There's only one Jewish one on the entire planet. If a Palestinian state can be created that lives side by side with Israel then fantastic, I'd love that.
If they can't? If Hamas won't surrender and one side needs total victory? Then the only Jewish state on the planet takes priority. If they can't live side by side then Egypt or any other Arab state can house the Palestinians.
Some people seem to prioritise a hypothetical Palestinian state over not just the safety of Israelis, but the safety of Palestinians too. I don't.
I sometimes get the impression that Britain is being governed entirely in the interests of not-Britain
Thought it was interesting that consultation asked would you like lifetime free cake and still only 300 people responded yes.
Yes, the idea of a consultation is piquant, in itself
"Hey, do you want a lifetime's guaranteed cheap rent in a central London property, with all your maintenance paid for, probably worth about £1m at least - and which you can likely hand on to your kids? Or do you NOT want this?"
Remember this Winter Fuel U-Turn comes in the same week the government announced cuts to funding for medical training of new doctors and nurses because we can't afford them or something....
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
The Israeli government's job is to protect the Israeli citizens lives first, and do what it can to minimise innocent Palestinian deaths without compromising the legitimate military objective of defeating Hamas.
If Palestinians die, it is due primarily to Hamas refusing to surrender and other nations refusing refuge to innocents caught in the middle. It is not Israel's primary responsibility to prevent Palestinian deaths. It's primary responsibility is to achieve the military objective first and foremost.
Ps I've said I'd like to see as many innocent Palestinians get refuge from Gaza in Egypt to avoid the war zone, as happens in other conflicts globally. Sadly they're kettled in, something I oppose. Those who support kettling of innocents are showing callous disregard for their lives, not me.
I'm interested in how you've come to such a lopsided view of Israel/Palestine. Your stuff on this topic reads like the ravings of a ultra-zionist zealot who considers Arabs to be inferior to Jews.
But I'm not going with that. It doesn't fit with the rest of your posting which is resolutely anti-racist.
So what I think is, you've got yourself a romantic view of Israel and this, combined with you always liking to take a strong position on something and your somewhat botlike debating style, is what's creating the impression of fanaticism. Fair?
You're never weaker than when you adopt a cause because you think it aligns with leftist causes but don't, because it's not your thing so you shouldn't feel bad about it, have the slightest idea or understand the matter at hand.
Hello Topping. Let me just finish with Bart then we can have a chat if you're still around.
You take your time. Google will help although it's no match for actually having an opinion on any given matter. But sure, go for it.
I have an opinion on you. Want to hear it?
Please don't think you need my consent to post whatever you want about whatever you want.
Our outdated planning system has held us back for too long.
Not anymore.
Today we’re announcing a new government-built AI tool that will help planning officers cut red tape, speed up decisions, and unlock homes for hard-working people through our Plan for Change.
The government has built an AI tool? I'm sure this will go entirely without a hitch of any sort.
Checks in. Oh it's Israel/Palestine today. Checks out.
Leon is trying his best - and his best is usually good enough - to move things back to more comfortable anti-migrant territory. Perhaps give it a few minutes.
Looks like I’ve been trumped by the Chancellor proving that this is the Worst Government Ever
I didn't realize you were particularly invested in the pensioners winter fuel allowance. There's no Muslim or Migrant angle here as far as I can see.
There's a "My god this government is Fucking Terrible" angle, that's for sure
Utterly shambolic, like a slo-mo Truss
A more toxic, pungent Truss with far more and longer lasting damage. Further and faster with the destruction of the UK
If I was a native Briton under 30 I would emigrate tomorrow. It is clear the British government despises you, and prefers foreigners
Maybe move to a country where you aren't taxed to death so illegal migrants can live in four star hotels, while you commute from your shared hovel in Watford to work at a Gregg's in Pimilco for two pounds a week
Our outdated planning system has held us back for too long.
Not anymore.
Today we’re announcing a new government-built AI tool that will help planning officers cut red tape, speed up decisions, and unlock homes for hard-working people through our Plan for Change.
The government has built an AI tool? I'm sure this will go entirely without a hitch of any sort.
Keir knows about making tools. He will probably remind us it runs in the family.
Our outdated planning system has held us back for too long.
Not anymore.
Today we’re announcing a new government-built AI tool that will help planning officers cut red tape, speed up decisions, and unlock homes for hard-working people through our Plan for Change.
AI says murder all the home owners and build on their land.
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
One of the main differences between the two sets of leaders is that the Israeli government does what it can to protect its people. Hamas do the very opposite with their people.
Bibi didn't seem to be particularly interested in the live hostages, and was quite comfortable for them to become collateral damage in his grand plan.
Yep, as ever, it's Israel who are to blame for Hamas invading Israel and taking hostages.
Not distinguishing between Netanyahu and Israel? Rookie error.
You think Netanyahu is to blame for 7 October?
You replied to a post referring to Netanyahu by immediately.conflating him with Israel. In any case I’d imagine someone who conspired to support Hamas and was in ultimate command of Israel’s security on October 7th would have a few questions to answer. Lots of Israelis seem to agree.
Hang on, even if Netanyahu wasn't in charge of Israel, someone else would be having to deal with the hostage situation. My guess is, they would not be begging Hamas to release them and offering to do whatever it takes.
Of course not, but I am surprised Israeli Special Forces were not sent into Gaza to retrieve live hostages on October 8th. I believe that is what the families believed would happen.
Man, why didn’t the Israelis just think of sending in the Special Forces? Seriously would have been so simple grabbing 251 people from unknown locations, all split up, in tunnels, buildings all over a large area of land, guarded like the Crown Jewels.
They would have lost hundreds if not thousands of special forces and loads of palaestinians would still have been killed.
Gaza isn’t Entebbe where they could fly in to deal with a small terrorist force in a secure area. It’s not going into a desert camp to grab one or two hostages.
How about “why didn’t Hamas give up all the hostages early on when it was clear that Israel were coming for the whole of Gaza in revenge?”
Because Hamas are a death cult who couldn't care less how many innocent Gazans die. THe death of Gazans by Israel is a Recruiting Sergeant for Hamas. Why do you people assume a negotiation with Hamas works like a negotiatuion with an elected democracy?
This is true. And round and round it goes. But what is the alternative. Wait for the Gazans to vote out Hamas. Do they actually want to do that? If so then it validates those who say Free Palestine from Hamas, if not, then the war become yet more legitimate.
Fair enough, but you are entering Barty territory where you can't put an acceptable number on collateral deaths until Hamas are destroyed.
Give me a list of wars where you CAN put an acceptable number of collateral deaths, and what that number is for each please?
Our outdated planning system has held us back for too long.
Not anymore.
Today we’re announcing a new government-built AI tool that will help planning officers cut red tape, speed up decisions, and unlock homes for hard-working people through our Plan for Change.
The government has built an AI tool? I'm sure this will go entirely without a hitch of any sort.
It's literally going to be a shoddy interface put on a crap free chatbot - GPT2.5 or something - and you ask it "can you help me with planning law" and it says "yes", but does it quite badly, in between hallucinations
The hilarious thing is Labour trying to argue it’s the improving economy that has allowed them to do it. No-one believes that justification, it is a political panic move.
Yes, everyone can feel the booming economy and massive growth rates that allow her to do this, thanks to Labour’s superb management of the nation; soon she will be lowering taxes as well, to thank all the hard working families
We are going to get whacked by this government. It was obvious a year ago in the election campaign, it has been obvious every month since their victory.
The change of government was meant to be about getting rid of the incompetent to be replaced by some middling competence. That didn't take long to fall flat.
Checks in. Oh it's Israel/Palestine today. Checks out.
Leon is trying his best - and his best is usually good enough - to move things back to more comfortable anti-migrant territory. Perhaps give it a few minutes.
Looks like I’ve been trumped by the Chancellor proving that this is the Worst Government Ever
I didn't realize you were particularly invested in the pensioners winter fuel allowance. There's no Muslim or Migrant angle here as far as I can see.
There's a "My god this government is Fucking Terrible" angle, that's for sure
Utterly shambolic, like a slo-mo Truss
A more toxic, pungent Truss with far more and longer lasting damage. Further and faster with the destruction of the UK
If I was a native Briton under 30 I would emigrate tomorrow. It is clear the British government despises you, and prefers foreigners
Maybe move to a country where you aren't taxed to death so illegal migrants can live in four star hotels, while you commute from your shared hovel in Watford to work at a Gregg's in Pimilco for two pounds a week
I'm very tempted to occupy an island in the Broads and secede
Our outdated planning system has held us back for too long.
Not anymore.
Today we’re announcing a new government-built AI tool that will help planning officers cut red tape, speed up decisions, and unlock homes for hard-working people through our Plan for Change.
Reopening coal for power is stupid on so many levels. Bad for the environment, expensive, and so backwards-looking as to make me wonder when Farage is going to call for young boys to become chimney sweeps.
It's insane.
Farage is appealing to those stupid idiots who think the past was a better place; that look back longingly to the days of smog and the great stink.
(Having said that, coal mining on a much smaller scale, for non power generation, might be doable. And I am *generally* in favour of steelmaking, especially speciality steels.)
Using our own coal in Drax would probably release less carbon in sum than shipping over and burning American wood pellets.
Do you have figures for that 'probably'? Anyway, Drax is a dead-end idea, designed just to keep the plant running as long as possible. Instead, compare to gas and renewables.
Well, it says that burning wood at Drax releases more CO2 than coal here:
As an aside, when I was younger I wanted to go into tunnelling (*). One thing that amazes me still is that they can drill tunnels for many miles and end up only a few centimetres out of line. Even in ye olden days, where they often dug tunnels from shafts every few hundred yards, and dug small initial drifts instead of the full tunnel, it was amazing.
But the really amazing thing are the maps of mines, e.g. coal. Not only do they show, to apparently quite high accuracy, the position of the workings, but they can also be objects of beauty. And all done manually, without modern stuff like lasers.
(Somewhere I've got a book on surveying for tunnellers, written in Victorian times.)
Incidentally, there's an online official map of all known old coal workings. I particularly like the ones to the west of Buxton in the Peak District, where the hollows in the ground are still well fenced off.
(*) Yes, I wanted to bore as a profession. Now it's just a hobby...
That's a great map. You can see the close correlation with development in and around Edinburgh and the location of old mines. It's quite a big problem for developers.
I've got a good friend currently working 1km below the North Sea. Mad.
Network Rail have a *lot* of parallel-to-the-line routes which could be used for all kinds of beneficial things, but which they keep fenced off. I have a multiuser path that could take me all the way to (mainline) Alfreton Station but which stops half-a-mile short, because Network Rail keep a parallel track fenced off.
So it is necessary to do battle with dual carriageways or dangerous narrow roads, and huge hills (the EMM goes through the flat valley).
So no one uses it to get to the station. The close by area of potential users has about 200k people in it.
But they won't. They choose, as we know, to block up bridges rather than let them be a public benefit. It's all hidden in plain sight.
There are several aspects to this. One is that these parallel routes are often needed for maintenance access, and opening it up to the public *really* inhibits that - as the public don't like 'their' routes being closed. Another is that a few of the public are gits, and Network Rail already has a significant problem with trespass. And if some scrote goes on the railway line and gets killed, then NR gets the blame. Another is cost: opening up that parallel route for use by the public will cost money as well as the inconvenience, and sometimes a fair amount of money - especially if structures need making safe. Another is access: how do you get the public to the beginning of the route at other end, if it is surrounded by private land?
Perhaps in the case you mention it is feasible. Often it is nowhere near as easy as proponents suppose.
I'm not sure on the maintenance point.
ISTM that a lot of places to be maintained are by maintenance peeps travelling down a public road or right of way, and I don't the difference with putting a fence in and creating a (say) Restricted Byway (walking / wheeling / cycling), which the Network Rail people can use.
Not everywhere, but there are enough for it to make a large difference eg to fill gaps in networks.
In the case I mention there is already a multiuser trail in place, with a bit of footpath at the end.
As to how to create a new one, there are powers such as Creation of a PROW by agreement, or by order, under Sections 25 and 26 of the Highways Act 1980. There are also separate provision for creation of cycle paths (which I would have to look up). If necessary CPOs are available. Or (I think) creation of permissive paths under Sustainable Farming arrangements *.
The blocks are Network Rail, and also a cultural squint in Local Highways Authorities where they are quite happy to use CPO to make road wider or traffic islands larger, but never for footpaths or other PROWs. It needs equality implanting in the culture.
I am aware of one exception where a high quality cycleway was created by the Road Builders, but its buried in Laura Laker's book and they only did it because too many cyclists were using the road and they wanted to shift them.
* The Govt are redoing these, and I don't know what will happen yet. This was one of the better things done under BoJo.
I think the 'blocking' by National Rail, as I show above, can be very reasonable from their perspective. But you show part of the point well: "...which the Network Rail people can use." In other words, they become the lesser user. It becomes a cycle path (I'd *much* prefer the emphasis to be multi-user path) that NR can occasionally use. And which people then complain endlessly about NR using.
Having known maintenance bods working for NR subcontractors, the access point is *very* apt. Especially where the route can be used by vehicles.
But put simply: railway lines and people really do not get along well. Especially main lines and busy ones.
It would be like Restricted Byways where there is also a farm access - one way is that there is a locking bollard in the entrance of what then looks like a single track road.
There are also a lot of these as estate roads or dam machinery access roads in the hills, where the only vehicles allowed are water company or land owner.
Follow the railway south, and it comes to Alfreton Station - formerly there was another railway parallel, which is why there is the second tunnel S of the station as well. It's a multiuser path for a few path miles that just *stops* a bit short of where it needs to go. A route to the station from their either side is very difficult for other than men or women in lycra. But I can't shift that without a Govt policy change, or a major local lobby (which - like a piling swivel from Kipling's Naming of Parts - I have not got).
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
The Israeli government's job is to protect the Israeli citizens lives first, and do what it can to minimise innocent Palestinian deaths without compromising the legitimate military objective of defeating Hamas.
If Palestinians die, it is due primarily to Hamas refusing to surrender and other nations refusing refuge to innocents caught in the middle. It is not Israel's primary responsibility to prevent Palestinian deaths. It's primary responsibility is to achieve the military objective first and foremost.
Ps I've said I'd like to see as many innocent Palestinians get refuge from Gaza in Egypt to avoid the war zone, as happens in other conflicts globally. Sadly they're kettled in, something I oppose. Those who support kettling of innocents are showing callous disregard for their lives, not me.
I'm interested in how you've come to such a lopsided view of Israel/Palestine. Your stuff on this topic reads like the ravings of a ultra-zionist zealot who considers Arabs to be inferior to Jews.
But I'm not going with that. It doesn't fit with the rest of your posting which is resolutely anti-racist.
So what I think is, you've got yourself a romantic view of Israel and this, combined with you always liking to take a strong position on something and your somewhat botlike debating style, is what's creating the impression of fanaticism. Fair?
Maybe its personal.
My best friend when I was growing up was a Jew whose grandmother died in the Holocaust.
His family regularly travel to Kibbutz in Israel, one or which was one of the places targeted by Hamas on 7 October.
There are a plethora of Arab nations for Arabs to live in. There's only one Jewish one on the entire planet. If a Palestinian state can be created that lives side by side with Israel then fantastic, I'd love that.
If they can't and one side needs total victory? Then the only Jewish state on the planet takes priority. If they can't live side by side then Egypt or any other Arab state can house the Palestinians.
Some people seem to prioritise a hypothetical Palestinian state over not just the safety of Israelis, but the safety of Palestinians too. I don't.
It does smack of being personal, yes.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'total victory' for either side. It sounds genocidal.
Our outdated planning system has held us back for too long.
Not anymore.
Today we’re announcing a new government-built AI tool that will help planning officers cut red tape, speed up decisions, and unlock homes for hard-working people through our Plan for Change.
The government has built an AI tool? I'm sure this will go entirely without a hitch of any sort.
Keir knows about making tools. He will probably remind us it runs in the family.
Its going to be a random number generator. Odd = approved, Even = denied.
I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.
I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.
Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.
The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.
But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?
(*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.
Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.
The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.
Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
If I had one wish it would be that someone would drop Bartholomew Roberts in the middle of Gaza with his laptop and see whether he develops into a human being
I want the war to end, with the surrender of Hamas.
That won't happen until the grievances that Hamas feeds off are addressed. Even if Hamas were somehow destroyed, some successor organisation would take its place.
Unlike, say, the Ukraine war, which is basically one man's folly, though he is backed by a band of opportunists and fanatics, the Palestinian cause seems genuinely popular and has survived God knows how many military defeats.
Until Israel offers genuine concessions and deals with the Palestinians as equals, entitled to at least some share in the land the Israelis occupied last century, the tragic, pointless sore will continue to fester.
Israel has repeatedly offered genuine concessions, this century. Such as the agreement spurned by Arafat, or the subsequent withdrawal from Gaza which Hamas then stepped into the void with. Both were before Netanyahu returned to power.
I would love nothing more than to see Hamas defeated, then some Palestinian leadership stepping into the void that settles and ends the fighting. I'm confident most Israelis would vote for that too, if it were an option.
Its not an option until Hamas is eradicated though.
The way Israel is carrying on is more likely to radicalise not only Palestinian opinion but Arab and muslim opinion more widely (as indeed we see in this country).
But I don't accept the premise that a Hamas regime was inevitable; it wasn't in the West Bank (which admittedly wasn't kept under such tight restrictions - though the restrictions followed the Hamas coup rather than vice versa). That the Palestinian leadership have previously rejected genuine offers is their own stupid fault; that doesn't give Israel a green light to make even worse decisions.
Hamas does need removing from Gaza; that's not going to happen militarily unless you remove the population - which seems to be the conclusion Israel has come to: and a a war crime and a crime against humanity. It's also a bloody stupid precedent given that extreme Arab opinion holds much the same view of the presence of the state of Israel.
If peace isn't possible without the population being moved then the population should be moved, which happens regularly in conflicts most recently in Azerbaijan without so much as a murmur from most of the world.
Though hopefully it won't come to that and Hamas can surrender instead, as the Tamil Tigers did.
Do you not see that Bibi is 50% of the problem? Bibi requires this to continue to keep out of an Israeli jail.
How many dead Gazans is acceptable? If the number of dead Palestinians reaches a 7 figure number, does that cross a line?
No dead Palestinians are acceptable after Hamas surrenders unconditionally.
Only a rank antisemite would show the level of disregard for Israeli lives that you show for Palestinians.
The Israeli government's job is to protect the Israeli citizens lives first, and do what it can to minimise innocent Palestinian deaths without compromising the legitimate military objective of defeating Hamas.
If Palestinians die, it is due primarily to Hamas refusing to surrender and other nations refusing refuge to innocents caught in the middle. It is not Israel's primary responsibility to prevent Palestinian deaths. It's primary responsibility is to achieve the military objective first and foremost.
Ps I've said I'd like to see as many innocent Palestinians get refuge from Gaza in Egypt to avoid the war zone, as happens in other conflicts globally. Sadly they're kettled in, something I oppose. Those who support kettling of innocents are showing callous disregard for their lives, not me.
I'm interested in how you've come to such a lopsided view of Israel/Palestine. Your stuff on this topic reads like the ravings of a ultra-zionist zealot who considers Arabs to be inferior to Jews.
But I'm not going with that. It doesn't fit with the rest of your posting which is resolutely anti-racist.
So what I think is, you've got yourself a romantic view of Israel and this, combined with you always liking to take a strong position on something and your somewhat botlike debating style, is what's creating the impression of fanaticism. Fair?
Maybe its personal.
My best friend when I was growing up was a Jew whose grandmother died in the Holocaust.
His family regularly travel to Kibbutz in Israel, one or which was one of the places targeted by Hamas on 7 October.
There are a plethora of Arab nations for Arabs to live in. There's only one Jewish one on the entire planet. If a Palestinian state can be created that lives side by side with Israel then fantastic, I'd love that.
If they can't and one side needs total victory? Then the only Jewish state on the planet takes priority. If they can't live side by side then Egypt or any other Arab state can house the Palestinians.
Some people seem to prioritise a hypothetical Palestinian state over not just the safety of Israelis, but the safety of Palestinians too. I don't.
It does smack of being personal, yes.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'total victory' for either side. It sounds genocidal.
We totally won WWII and afaics there is still the odd German or two cutting about over there.
Checks in. Oh it's Israel/Palestine today. Checks out.
Leon is trying his best - and his best is usually good enough - to move things back to more comfortable anti-migrant territory. Perhaps give it a few minutes.
Looks like I’ve been trumped by the Chancellor proving that this is the Worst Government Ever
I didn't realize you were particularly invested in the pensioners winter fuel allowance. There's no Muslim or Migrant angle here as far as I can see.
There's a "My god this government is Fucking Terrible" angle, that's for sure
Utterly shambolic, like a slo-mo Truss
If Truss had had the parliamentary support to save her budget, the economy and the country would be in a far better position.
Comments
She has shredded any integrity and is simply unfit to do the job
Plenty of nations intercept illegal ships in international waters if they can.
1) Government committee to Net Zero
2) Why are they not funding a Green Steel replacement at {insert steelworks}? The tech exists.
Then put a carbon tax on steel.
“This is a measure of Labour's desperation to deflect from the kidnapping of the crew of a British flagged vessel in Gazan territorial waters by the Israeli junta...
In clear sight of RAF spy planes.”
https://x.com/justwilliam1297/status/1932030990827884880?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
The whole Israel/Palestine kerfuffle is like some weird soap opera mixed with reality TV show, with billions of viewers absurdly invested in characters who are borderline fictional. It even has stage villains - from Netanyahu to Hamas - allowing the punters to boo and hiss
I wonder if it provides some psychological service to these people. Maybe a comforting distraction from frightening realities closer to home?
It even animates the PB Centrist Dads
https://www.fulcrum.org/concern/file_sets/hh63sz90h
Anyone got any magic beans?
There's almost nobody left who is experienced and still capable.
Let alone the logistics.
It's not Old Labour it's nostalgia.
Insanity. I do not condone what Israel is doing now. Those in power have blood on their hands for sure. And yet I don't know how you realistically defeat Hamas. This isn't working. The idea seems to be to squeeze Gaza until Hamas (a) surrenders or (b) the populace overthrow them. Otherwise what is left for Israel? You can keep bombing rubble but what's the point? Bomber command essentially ran out of targets in Germany in 1945.
They would have lost hundreds if not thousands of special forces and loads of palaestinians would still have been killed.
Gaza isn’t Entebbe where they could fly in to deal with a small terrorist force in a secure area. It’s not going into a desert camp to grab one or two hostages.
How about “why didn’t Hamas give up all the hostages early on when it was clear that Israel were coming for the whole of Gaza in revenge?”
They weren't all holed up in a compound which could have been targeted by SF.
Compared to my plan to increase Income tax and hide the implementation from pensions using the winter fuel allowance this is utterly insane.
I never rated Ms Reeves but this is insanity personified
The fact that the Scottish Government - usually big fans of universal benefits - have gone through the same purgatory on it shows what a silly benefit it is.
But I'm not going with that. It doesn't fit with the rest of your posting which is resolutely anti-racist.
So what I think is, you've got yourself a romantic view of Israel and this, combined with you always liking to take a strong position on something and your somewhat botlike debating style, is what's creating the impression of fanaticism. Fair?
Would have saved more in the long run, no immediate hit to pensioners as no one off reduction, changes still keep pace with inflation etc.
We would have to import the expertise. I'm sure there would be no problem doing that...
("Decker" was, of copurse, the name of the character in Blade Runner - I wonder if Philip K Dick knew about Functionalism......)
ISTM that a lot of places to be maintained are by maintenance peeps travelling down a public road or right of way, and I don't the difference with putting a fence in and creating a (say) Restricted Byway (walking / wheeling / cycling), which the Network Rail people can use.
Not everywhere, but there are enough for it to make a large difference eg to fill gaps in networks.
In the case I mention there is already a multiuser trail in place, with a bit of footpath at the end.
As to how to create a new one, there are powers such as Creation of a PROW by agreement, or by order, under Sections 25 and 26 of the Highways Act 1980. There are also separate provision for creation of cycle paths (which I would have to look up). If necessary CPOs are available. Or (I think) creation of permissive paths under Sustainable Farming arrangements *.
The blocks are Network Rail, and also a cultural squint in Local Highways Authorities where they are quite happy to use CPO to make road wider or traffic islands larger, but never for footpaths or other PROWs. It needs equality implanting in the culture.
I am aware of one exception where a high quality cycleway was created by the Road Builders, but its buried in Laura Laker's book and they only did it because too many cyclists were using the road and they wanted to shift them.
* The Govt are redoing these, and I don't know what will happen yet. This was one of the better things done under BoJo.
# Apologies to any pensioners in here who aren’t part of the pensioner mafia!
It's insane.
Farage is appealing to those stupid idiots who think the past was a better place; that look back longingly to the days of smog and the great stink.
(Having said that, coal mining on a much smaller scale, for non power generation, might be doable. And I am *generally* in favour of steelmaking, especially speciality steels.)
I have long since wanted the triple lock changed
I met a chap in at least his mid-70s, who said he likes to get out and do 6 miles (ie 2 hours) twice a week.
They would distribute pictures of Hitler with very little detail on them, to news kiosk sellers, for instance. Just a very stylised "Hitler" in a very modern, rather than gothic logo, and a mysterious picture of Hitler, looking like an actor in a roll-neck jumper, on top.
Having known maintenance bods working for NR subcontractors, the access point is *very* apt. Especially where the route can be used by vehicles.
But put simply: railway lines and people really do not get along well. Especially main lines and busy ones.
And she's left gormless dork Torsten Bell to face the Commons over it. Brave sir Robin
Well there are three problems with that to begin with.
There are no longer any pits to reopen.
There are no longer any miners to work in them.
There are no longer any coal fired power stations to burn the coal in.
Now perhaps things are different in the Welsh valleys but I doubt many people in Yorkshire and the Midlands want their local environments to be trashed to provide jobs for immigrant miners to extract coal for the Scunthorpe steelworks.
We are seeing plenty of the "more white babies" stuff even in the UK already. It's a parallel track.
When the Nazis set out to kill disabled people, it was portrayed as mercy killing with soft-soap films made by Goebbels' friends.
https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1932015633505677523
Our outdated planning system has held us back for too long.
Not anymore.
Today we’re announcing a new government-built AI tool that will help planning officers cut red tape, speed up decisions, and unlock homes for hard-working people through our Plan for Change.
I hope some journo or other asks Anderson the question.
But as I've said before, any large project should have a certain proportion of the budget (5% may be a good base) put aside for all environmental mitigations and access improvements. The groups can then argue over how that is spent. But that's much better than the open-ended scheme we tend to have now...
An extraordinary distribution of largesse."
Two-thirds of the people benefiting from this were born overseas
https://x.com/maxtempers/status/1931764761198256261
I sometimes get the impression that Britain is being governed entirely in the interests of not-Britain
I don't happen to think that the Israeli strategy is particularly successful. They are operating back in areas they first cleared months and months ago. Whatever the composition of the casualty numbers, Hamas still seems to be in control after a year and a half of fighting.
But Israel believes it is in an existential struggle. For me this last is key in understanding their approach and the condemnation they just about universally (or at least globally) receive. We in the West (and in the East for that matter) just can't relate to an existential fight. All our operations are localised, far away, and even if we, cough, cough, were to lose to someone like the Taliban, actually it doesn't affect Mrs Smith buying her tomatoes in Tescos.
It's essentially a sophisticated scam. "Give me your vote" could read like "send me a thousand quid" "and "you get lots of deep mines or £1,000,000 from the Ivory Coast lottery" (delete as appropriate).
Utterly shambolic, like a slo-mo Truss
I presume she didn't know who she was aping.
Further and faster with the destruction of the UK
My best friend when I was growing up was a Jew whose grandmother died in the Holocaust.
His family regularly travel to Kibbutz in Israel, one or which was one of the places targeted by Hamas on 7 October.
There are a plethora of Arab nations for Arabs to live in. There's only one Jewish one on the entire planet. If a Palestinian state can be created that lives side by side with Israel then fantastic, I'd love that.
If they can't? If Hamas won't surrender and one side needs total victory? Then the only Jewish state on the planet takes priority. If they can't live side by side then Egypt or any other Arab state can house the Palestinians.
Some people seem to prioritise a hypothetical Palestinian state over not just the safety of Israelis, but the safety of Palestinians too. I don't.
"Hey, do you want a lifetime's guaranteed cheap rent in a central London property, with all your maintenance paid for, probably worth about £1m at least - and which you can likely hand on to your kids? Or do you NOT want this?"
Maybe move to a country where you aren't taxed to death so illegal migrants can live in four star hotels, while you commute from your shared hovel in Watford to work at a Gregg's in Pimilco for two pounds a week
If you can't for any, why should I for this one?
The change of government was meant to be about getting rid of the incompetent to be replaced by some middling competence. That didn't take long to fall flat.
(Or is this some kind of niche internet dating/pickup angle?)
Change the law and simplify the red tape or STFU.
This is absurd.
https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/uk-biomass-emits-more-co2-than-coal/
And then you add to that the CO2 released by transporting the wood pellets over the Atlantic, and it seems obvious.
There are also a lot of these as estate roads or dam machinery access roads in the hills, where the only vehicles allowed are water company or land owner.
The one I am talking about is here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/e3MZrs6Rgcssah4EA
Follow the railway south, and it comes to Alfreton Station - formerly there was another railway parallel, which is why there is the second tunnel S of the station as well. It's a multiuser path for a few path miles that just *stops* a bit short of where it needs to go. A route to the station from their either side is very difficult for other than men or women in lycra. But I can't shift that without a Govt policy change, or a major local lobby (which - like a piling swivel from Kipling's Naming of Parts - I have not got).
I'm not sure what you mean by 'total victory' for either side. It sounds genocidal.