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The Chagos deal – politicalbetting.com

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  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,181

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Amorin needs to receive the backing of the board and get rid of the dross

    The list of players not upto playing for United is extensive and certainly Rashford, Sancho, Anthony, Hoyland, Onana, Shaw, Eriksen, Casemiro, Zirtzee, Lindelof to name the obvious and why Amorin has to recruit new replacements by next season
    There's a lot of dross. But the man can only play one way. And these players just can't do it. So either we sell them all or we need to find someone who can make the less drossy players work.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,775

    isam said:

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    So odd how Liverpool fans keep banging on about Arteta. Why can’t they just be happy they won?
    ‘Cause Lego head won’t stop talking about Liverpool.
    Just try and be happy, you don’t have to spin & troll all the time to do that
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,765
    edited 8:52AM

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Forget Chagos.

    This report by the Justice Committee is utterly damning. Law and order is the most basic function of the state and it is failing. If the state can't or won't get this right, little chance of it getting anything else right.

    https://x.com/commonsjustice/status/1925793948917809228?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    Or you can read this damning analysis here - https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/ccrc-chief-must-go.

    It's a very different institution, but the CCRC reminds me of OFSTED - or OFWAT - in the way it seems almost completely impervious to criticism in the wake of notorious public failings.

    And it's something that seems to persist whichever government is in power.
    Or the Met and many other police forces or the Post Office or parts of the NHS (maternity care, for instance) or any of the institutions I've lambasted in countless headers over the years.

    We have for many years combined a culture of low expectations with delusions about our institutions being as good as we vaingloriously claim. And this is the inevitable result.
    Not all are the same complexity of problem, though.

    We couldn't manage without the NHS or a police force - but it would be perfectly possible to get rid of OFWAT overnight (with various options for either replacing it, managing its role directly in government, or simply nationalising the industry), or sack the entire management of the CCRC and rebuild it from scratch, without doing significant damage to their functions.

    Tackling the Met or NHS management failings is a more complicated endeavour.
    Impose some penalty for failure.

    In the Goode Olde Days, the CEOs for failed banks had the following options

    1) blow their brains out with a pistol
    2) flee the country in a small yacht and get murdered by whalers.

    Two thoughts, one relating to the Cole household and one general.
    1. The blue-tit chicks in our televised nest box have this morning fledged and gone. Ten eggs laid, eight hatched and five chicks have eventually flown the nest.

    2. One feature of Thatcherism with which I completely disagreed (among others I must confess) was her assertion, and creation of a climate of opinion among her supporters, that it was 'wrong' for the best minds from university to go into the Civil Service, or indeed any form of public service. It was their duty to make money, to create wealth, which would then 'trickle down'.
    With the result that over the last 40 years that's exactly what happened. And the results are plain for all to see.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,694

    stodge said:

    @stodge ftom previous thread
    Reform did pretty well in Carshalton, Tories probably relieved to hold second despite fancying it!
    I think youre right that Reforms best prospects next year are the likes of Bexley etc - the outer London councils sweeping NE to SE really. Also where they may pick up seats at a GE (Hornchurch, Romford most likely ftom Tories and i think Bexleyheath might go turquoise) . Tories will be targetting holding the NW first and foremost Hillingdon and Harrow where they will fancy gaining 2 or 3 GE seats next time (Hendon, Uxbridge, Chipping Barnet.....) and is where they seem stickiest (Harrow East was their only 50% plus seat last year) and they'll want to keep Chelsea blue. Labour will be undrr pressure everywhere but are totemic in a lot if London, the golden mass in the SW looks a solid bet to hold firm, be interesting to see if the LDs can eat into Croydon.

    My thought (and I'm not alone) is Reform's vote was best in Clockhouse which is an area of ex-council housing right on the border of Sutton and Croydon. The LDs won the Clockhouse Ward in the past but, without knowledge of the boxes from that polling district, it wouldn't surprise me if that was where Reform did best.

    I wrote last year there was a pentagon of politics in London - basically, five different struggles.

    Con-Lab (as you say, North and North West London)
    Con-LD (South West London. I doubt the LDs will make much headway in Croydon but Merton might be different).
    Con-Ref (the eastern and south eastern Boroughs)
    Lab-Green (Inner London Boroughs)
    Lab-Ind (Newham, Tower Hamlets and Redbridge).

    There will be others as well but that's where I'd be starting.

    On the basis of the 2025 locals, my initial thought would be big losses for Labour and the Conservatives, small gains for LD, Greens and Independents and big gains for Reform but as for numbers....

    I think my own Borough, Newham, will be particularly interesting as we also have the Mayoral election.
    Interesting, thanks. Id agree in general terms with all of that although i think the Tory losses snd Reform advances will be a bit less jaw dropping in London overall than May 1st. Tories already more hollowed out in London than they were in those juicy shires.
    Tories could even win back Westminster as Reform vote will be low there
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,622

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Not Jurgen, surely:

    https://x.com/04gully/status/1924502105542234504
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,302
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    @stodge ftom previous thread
    Reform did pretty well in Carshalton, Tories probably relieved to hold second despite fancying it!
    I think youre right that Reforms best prospects next year are the likes of Bexley etc - the outer London councils sweeping NE to SE really. Also where they may pick up seats at a GE (Hornchurch, Romford most likely ftom Tories and i think Bexleyheath might go turquoise) . Tories will be targetting holding the NW first and foremost Hillingdon and Harrow where they will fancy gaining 2 or 3 GE seats next time (Hendon, Uxbridge, Chipping Barnet.....) and is where they seem stickiest (Harrow East was their only 50% plus seat last year) and they'll want to keep Chelsea blue. Labour will be undrr pressure everywhere but are totemic in a lot if London, the golden mass in the SW looks a solid bet to hold firm, be interesting to see if the LDs can eat into Croydon.

    My thought (and I'm not alone) is Reform's vote was best in Clockhouse which is an area of ex-council housing right on the border of Sutton and Croydon. The LDs won the Clockhouse Ward in the past but, without knowledge of the boxes from that polling district, it wouldn't surprise me if that was where Reform did best.

    I wrote last year there was a pentagon of politics in London - basically, five different struggles.

    Con-Lab (as you say, North and North West London)
    Con-LD (South West London. I doubt the LDs will make much headway in Croydon but Merton might be different).
    Con-Ref (the eastern and south eastern Boroughs)
    Lab-Green (Inner London Boroughs)
    Lab-Ind (Newham, Tower Hamlets and Redbridge).

    There will be others as well but that's where I'd be starting.

    On the basis of the 2025 locals, my initial thought would be big losses for Labour and the Conservatives, small gains for LD, Greens and Independents and big gains for Reform but as for numbers....

    I think my own Borough, Newham, will be particularly interesting as we also have the Mayoral election.
    Interesting, thanks. Id agree in general terms with all of that although i think the Tory losses snd Reform advances will be a bit less jaw dropping in London overall than May 1st. Tories already more hollowed out in London than they were in those juicy shires.
    Tories could even win back Westminster as Reform vote will be low there
    Yeah they'll target it. Probably need to stabilise themselves at 20% in the polls though as currently they are on the slide to low teens and implosion as it stands and it could all start unravelling quite fast from there
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,694

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Forget Chagos.

    This report by the Justice Committee is utterly damning. Law and order is the most basic function of the state and it is failing. If the state can't or won't get this right, little chance of it getting anything else right.

    https://x.com/commonsjustice/status/1925793948917809228?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    Or you can read this damning analysis here - https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/ccrc-chief-must-go.

    It's a very different institution, but the CCRC reminds me of OFSTED - or OFWAT - in the way it seems almost completely impervious to criticism in the wake of notorious public failings.

    And it's something that seems to persist whichever government is in power.
    Or the Met and many other police forces or the Post Office or parts of the NHS (maternity care, for instance) or any of the institutions I've lambasted in countless headers over the years.

    We have for many years combined a culture of low expectations with delusions about our institutions being as good as we vaingloriously claim. And this is the inevitable result.
    Not all are the same complexity of problem, though.

    We couldn't manage without the NHS or a police force - but it would be perfectly possible to get rid of OFWAT overnight (with various options for either replacing it, managing its role directly in government, or simply nationalising the industry), or sack the entire management of the CCRC and rebuild it from scratch, without doing significant damage to their functions.

    Tackling the Met or NHS management failings is a more complicated endeavour.
    Impose some penalty for failure.

    In the Goode Olde Days, the CEOs for failed banks had the following options

    1) blow their brains out with a pistol
    2) flee the country in a small yacht and get murdered by whalers.

    Two thoughts, one relating to the Cole household and one general.
    1. The blue-tit chicks in our televised nest box have this morning fledged and gone. Ten eggs laid, eight hatched and five chicks have eventually flown the nest.

    2. One feature of Thatcherism with which I completely disagreed (among others I must confess) was her assertion, and creation of a climate of opinion among her supporters, that it was 'wrong' for the best minds from university to go into the Civil Service, or indeed any form of public service. It was their duty to make money, to create wealth, which would then 'trickle down'.
    With the result that over the last 40 years that's exactly what happened. And the results are plain for all to see.
    The slight problem with believing that 2) has had an effect is that it isn’t what happened. Read the CVs of the finest examples of #NU10K - loads of Oxbridge firsts.

    The disastrous idiocy of generalist management was apparent before WWI. See Denny & longitudinal framing for destroyers etc
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 262
    Is the BBC still promoting the fantasy of 14,000 dead babies in Gaza?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,351

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Amorin needs to receive the backing of the board and get rid of the dross

    The list of players not upto playing for United is extensive and certainly Rashford, Sancho, Anthony, Hoyland, Onana, Shaw, Eriksen, Casemiro, Zirtzee, Lindelof to name the obvious and why Amorin has to recruit new replacements by next season
    Perhaps it is Man Utd who are not up to managing the players? Why is Rashford Championship standard at Man Utd and Champions League standard at Aston Villa after a couple of weeks training?

    It is not particularly the players nor the manager but the whole club. Needs a big culture change and they are not ready to invest in that yet, still searching for the quick fixes instead.
    Rashford was no different at Villa than United and showed all his bad traits which are obvious to any United supporter

    Also he won't be at Villa next season
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,566

    Is the BBC still promoting the fantasy of 14,000 dead babies in Gaza?

    It was a BBC reporter who when reporting it, questioned the assertion in the first place.
    The hyperbolic claim by the UN guy was stupid and counterproductive.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,765

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Forget Chagos.

    This report by the Justice Committee is utterly damning. Law and order is the most basic function of the state and it is failing. If the state can't or won't get this right, little chance of it getting anything else right.

    https://x.com/commonsjustice/status/1925793948917809228?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    Or you can read this damning analysis here - https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/ccrc-chief-must-go.

    It's a very different institution, but the CCRC reminds me of OFSTED - or OFWAT - in the way it seems almost completely impervious to criticism in the wake of notorious public failings.

    And it's something that seems to persist whichever government is in power.
    Or the Met and many other police forces or the Post Office or parts of the NHS (maternity care, for instance) or any of the institutions I've lambasted in countless headers over the years.

    We have for many years combined a culture of low expectations with delusions about our institutions being as good as we vaingloriously claim. And this is the inevitable result.
    Not all are the same complexity of problem, though.

    We couldn't manage without the NHS or a police force - but it would be perfectly possible to get rid of OFWAT overnight (with various options for either replacing it, managing its role directly in government, or simply nationalising the industry), or sack the entire management of the CCRC and rebuild it from scratch, without doing significant damage to their functions.

    Tackling the Met or NHS management failings is a more complicated endeavour.
    Impose some penalty for failure.

    In the Goode Olde Days, the CEOs for failed banks had the following options

    1) blow their brains out with a pistol
    2) flee the country in a small yacht and get murdered by whalers.

    Two thoughts, one relating to the Cole household and one general.
    1. The blue-tit chicks in our televised nest box have this morning fledged and gone. Ten eggs laid, eight hatched and five chicks have eventually flown the nest.

    2. One feature of Thatcherism with which I completely disagreed (among others I must confess) was her assertion, and creation of a climate of opinion among her supporters, that it was 'wrong' for the best minds from university to go into the Civil Service, or indeed any form of public service. It was their duty to make money, to create wealth, which would then 'trickle down'.
    With the result that over the last 40 years that's exactly what happened. And the results are plain for all to see.
    The slight problem with believing that 2) has had an effect is that it isn’t what happened. Read the CVs of the finest examples of #NU10K - loads of Oxbridge firsts.

    The disastrous idiocy of generalist management was apparent before WWI. See Denny & longitudinal framing for destroyers etc
    My mind was made up. Please don't confuse me with facts!

    I'll have a look; thanks.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,566
    One snippet from Trumps meeting with Ramaphosa.

    Trump displays DRC visual as proof of South African 'genocide'

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-displays-drc-visual-proof-190611025.html
    .."Death of people, death, death, death, horrible death, death," Trump said as he flipped through the headlines, which he said were published in "the last few days."

    "These are all people that recently got killed."

    Trump and his allies have spread baseless claims of a "genocide" targeting white farmers in South Africa, claims that the government in Pretoria has dismissed as false.

    At the bilateral meeting in the Oval Office on Wednesday, the US president held up a February article about tribalism in Africa from a little-known website called "American Thinker."

    It featured a blown-up image showing Red Cross workers in protective gear handling body bags.

    "Look, here's burial sites all over the place," said Trump. "These are all white farmers that are being buried."

    But the image is a screengrab from a February YouTube video of Red Cross workers responding after women were raped and burned alive during a mass jailbreak in the Congolese city of Goma, according to its caption...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,654

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Amorin needs to receive the backing of the board and get rid of the dross

    The list of players not upto playing for United is extensive and certainly Rashford, Sancho, Anthony, Hoyland, Onana, Shaw, Eriksen, Casemiro, Zirtzee, Lindelof to name the obvious and why Amorin has to recruit new replacements by next season
    Perhaps it is Man Utd who are not up to managing the players? Why is Rashford Championship standard at Man Utd and Champions League standard at Aston Villa after a couple of weeks training?

    It is not particularly the players nor the manager but the whole club. Needs a big culture change and they are not ready to invest in that yet, still searching for the quick fixes instead.
    Rashford was no different at Villa than United and showed all his bad traits which are obvious to any United supporter

    Also he won't be at Villa next season
    Record with Villa

    Started 10 games, won 7, lost 2 to Man City and PSG. Took starting spot of Englands second choice striker, and got England recall

    Record with Man Utd this ssn

    Started 19 games, won 8, lost 4 - better than when they didnt play him.

    He is clearly well above Man Utds current level - that you think he is beneath you is a culture problem.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,068
    tlg86 said:

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Not Jurgen, surely:

    https://x.com/04gully/status/1924502105542234504
    Take my ex-manager’s name out of your mouth.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,754
    Leon said:

    The text of the deal gets worse the deeper you drill it into it

    eg if any work happens on the base, Mauritian companies have to be given preference. And much more

    It’s like a treaty signed by a totally vanquished nation in a 19th century war. And that is what we are under Starmer, a vanquished nation. We are defeated

    You are pulling at the wrong thread, like Winston Churchill in the 1930s railing against Indian independence and its harm to the King Emperor. And all the other Chagos threads you've been pulling at, like an excitable puppy.

    The right thread, the thread that might hasten Starmer's voluntary departure, is whether Starmer can hold the details of the deal in his head, and explain it coherently. For months I've been pointing to Starmer's verbal slips, the best known of which was his call to save the sausages, but which are on show at most PMQs. I expect Starmer will follow Harold Wilson in recognising his own decline and retiring. The anti-Biden, if you will, and also the anti-Trump and anti-Thatcher.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,991
    edited 9:11AM

    Incidentally the alternative path is not to say "we don't respect the law", but to be lawyerly and operate to the letter of the law.

    'This was an advisory ruling, we disagree with the advice. We are not obliged to act on it. The UK respects the rule of law and will always enact its legal obligations.'

    Then move on.

    I think that is the realistic alternative, which was the approach taken by the previous government. The problem with play-for-time, it's not an end state and you will probably have do an agreement eventually with the other party. So if the terms are not too egregious, why not do the deal now and bank the certainty? It boils down to how much money you pay, and when

    The US, who doesn't have the same sensitivities as UK could see this clearly so was pushing UK hard to get an agreement, to the extent of undermining the British case at the international courts.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,505
    FF43 said:

    Incidentally the alternative path is not to say "we don't respect the law", but to be lawyerly and operate to the letter of the law.

    'This was an advisory ruling, we disagree with the advice. We are not obliged to act on it. The UK respects the rule of law and will always enact its legal obligations.'

    Then move on.

    I think that is the realistic alternative, which was the approach taken by the previous government. The problem with play-for-time, it's not an end state and you will probably have do an agreement eventually with the other party. So if the terms are not too egregious, why not do the deal now and bank the certainty? It boils down to how much money you pay, and when

    The US, who doesn't have the same sensitivities as UK could see this clearly so we pushing UK hard to get an agreement, to the extent of undermining the British case at the international courts.
    With friends like that ;)
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,051

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Amorin needs to receive the backing of the board and get rid of the dross

    The list of players not upto playing for United is extensive and certainly Rashford, Sancho, Anthony, Hoyland, Onana, Shaw, Eriksen, Casemiro, Zirtzee, Lindelof to name the obvious and why Amorin has to recruit new replacements by next season
    There's a lot of dross. But the man can only play one way. And these players just can't do it. So either we sell them all or we need to find someone who can make the less drossy players work.
    On behalf of slightly poorer clubs across Europe, please could you continue spending Ratcliffe's money on identifying then scapegoating young talenmted players before allowing them to leave to resurrect their careers with better managed clubs.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 137
    tlg86 said:

    Complete nutter:

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/22/court-ruling-legal-definition-of-a-woman-misinterpreted-lady-hale

    The 80-year-old, who is a member of the House of Lords, also questioned what was meant by “biological sex”.

    “I was with some doctors last week who said there is no such thing as biological sex,” she said.


    Presumably she was with a psychiatrist...as a patient!
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 262
    Nigelb said:

    Is the BBC still promoting the fantasy of 14,000 dead babies in Gaza?

    It was a BBC reporter who when reporting it, questioned the assertion in the first place.
    The hyperbolic claim by the UN guy was stupid and counterproductive.
    Yeah but the BBC chose to keep the claim up on its news feed.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,351

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Amorin needs to receive the backing of the board and get rid of the dross

    The list of players not upto playing for United is extensive and certainly Rashford, Sancho, Anthony, Hoyland, Onana, Shaw, Eriksen, Casemiro, Zirtzee, Lindelof to name the obvious and why Amorin has to recruit new replacements by next season
    There's a lot of dross. But the man can only play one way. And these players just can't do it. So either we sell them all or we need to find someone who can make the less drossy players work.
    Amorin has to be given the chance but certainly if nothing changes he will be gone

    Where have we heard that before ?
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 262
    scampi25 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Complete nutter:

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/22/court-ruling-legal-definition-of-a-woman-misinterpreted-lady-hale

    The 80-year-old, who is a member of the House of Lords, also questioned what was meant by “biological sex”.

    “I was with some doctors last week who said there is no such thing as biological sex,” she said.


    Presumably she was with a psychiatrist...as a patient!
    You've made me think of this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f2WFFwBZPc
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,757

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Forget Chagos.

    This report by the Justice Committee is utterly damning. Law and order is the most basic function of the state and it is failing. If the state can't or won't get this right, little chance of it getting anything else right.

    https://x.com/commonsjustice/status/1925793948917809228?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    Or you can read this damning analysis here - https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/ccrc-chief-must-go.

    It's a very different institution, but the CCRC reminds me of OFSTED - or OFWAT - in the way it seems almost completely impervious to criticism in the wake of notorious public failings.

    And it's something that seems to persist whichever government is in power.
    Or the Met and many other police forces or the Post Office or parts of the NHS (maternity care, for instance) or any of the institutions I've lambasted in countless headers over the years.

    We have for many years combined a culture of low expectations with delusions about our institutions being as good as we vaingloriously claim. And this is the inevitable result.
    Not all are the same complexity of problem, though.

    We couldn't manage without the NHS or a police force - but it would be perfectly possible to get rid of OFWAT overnight (with various options for either replacing it, managing its role directly in government, or simply nationalising the industry), or sack the entire management of the CCRC and rebuild it from scratch, without doing significant damage to their functions.

    Tackling the Met or NHS management failings is a more complicated endeavour.
    Impose some penalty for failure.

    In the Goode Olde Days, the CEOs for failed banks had the following options

    1) blow their brains out with a pistol
    2) flee the country in a small yacht and get murdered by whalers.

    Two thoughts, one relating to the Cole household and one general.
    1. The blue-tit chicks in our televised nest box have this morning fledged and gone. Ten eggs laid, eight hatched and five chicks have eventually flown the nest.

    2. One feature of Thatcherism with which I completely disagreed (among others I must confess) was her assertion, and creation of a climate of opinion among her supporters, that it was 'wrong' for the best minds from university to go into the Civil Service, or indeed any form of public service. It was their duty to make money, to create wealth, which would then 'trickle down'.
    With the result that over the last 40 years that's exactly what happened. And the results are plain for all to see.
    The slight problem with believing that 2) has had an effect is that it isn’t what happened. Read the CVs of the finest examples of #NU10K - loads of Oxbridge firsts.

    The disastrous idiocy of generalist management was apparent before WWI. See Denny & longitudinal framing for destroyers etc
    Leaders ought to be generalists. The problem is when generalists think their skill in one field means that they can master every field.

    A great example in literature is Saruman. A gifted magician and technologist, who failed spectacularly as a military commander.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,754

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Manchester United's two problems are being cleaned out by the Glazers and Ferguson retiring on his 102nd birthday.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,351

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Amorin needs to receive the backing of the board and get rid of the dross

    The list of players not upto playing for United is extensive and certainly Rashford, Sancho, Anthony, Hoyland, Onana, Shaw, Eriksen, Casemiro, Zirtzee, Lindelof to name the obvious and why Amorin has to recruit new replacements by next season
    Perhaps it is Man Utd who are not up to managing the players? Why is Rashford Championship standard at Man Utd and Champions League standard at Aston Villa after a couple of weeks training?

    It is not particularly the players nor the manager but the whole club. Needs a big culture change and they are not ready to invest in that yet, still searching for the quick fixes instead.
    Rashford was no different at Villa than United and showed all his bad traits which are obvious to any United supporter

    Also he won't be at Villa next season
    Record with Villa

    Started 10 games, won 7, lost 2 to Man City and PSG. Took starting spot of Englands second choice striker, and got England recall

    Record with Man Utd this ssn

    Started 19 games, won 8, lost 4 - better than when they didnt play him.

    He is clearly well above Man Utds current level - that you think he is beneath you is a culture problem.

    Villa are but Rashford is not the player you think he is

    He is moody, lazy, easily distracted, and badly advised
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,186

    “UK calls for investigation after IDF fired warning shots as British diplomats travelled through West Bank
    “Diplomats from Ireland, France, Germany and Turkey were also travelling with the delegation in the city of Jenin when the gunshots rang out on Wednesday.”

    https://news.sky.com/story/uk-calls-for-investigation-after-idf-fired-warning-shots-as-british-diplomats-travelled-through-west-bank-13372358

    We're on the wrong side of history, you see.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,654

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Amorin needs to receive the backing of the board and get rid of the dross

    The list of players not upto playing for United is extensive and certainly Rashford, Sancho, Anthony, Hoyland, Onana, Shaw, Eriksen, Casemiro, Zirtzee, Lindelof to name the obvious and why Amorin has to recruit new replacements by next season
    Perhaps it is Man Utd who are not up to managing the players? Why is Rashford Championship standard at Man Utd and Champions League standard at Aston Villa after a couple of weeks training?

    It is not particularly the players nor the manager but the whole club. Needs a big culture change and they are not ready to invest in that yet, still searching for the quick fixes instead.
    Rashford was no different at Villa than United and showed all his bad traits which are obvious to any United supporter

    Also he won't be at Villa next season
    Record with Villa

    Started 10 games, won 7, lost 2 to Man City and PSG. Took starting spot of Englands second choice striker, and got England recall

    Record with Man Utd this ssn

    Started 19 games, won 8, lost 4 - better than when they didnt play him.

    He is clearly well above Man Utds current level - that you think he is beneath you is a culture problem.

    Villa are but Rashford is not the player you think he is

    He is moody, lazy, easily distracted, and badly advised
    So is Cunha, with added red cards and suspensions, yet Man Utd are paying £62.5m to Wolves to get him to replace Rashford who they will pay to get him off their books.

    McTominay wasn't "good enough" last year, this year key man and permanent starter for Napoli winning Serie A.

    It is not the players.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,186
    edited 9:28AM
    @MoonRabbit
    I would have thought Mauritius was closer politically to China than India.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,293
    Thanks, MR, it's good to read a thoughtful take from off the beaten track. They're in short supply on this one.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,991
    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    Incidentally the alternative path is not to say "we don't respect the law", but to be lawyerly and operate to the letter of the law.

    'This was an advisory ruling, we disagree with the advice. We are not obliged to act on it. The UK respects the rule of law and will always enact its legal obligations.'

    Then move on.

    I think that is the realistic alternative, which was the approach taken by the previous government. The problem with play-for-time, it's not an end state and you will probably have do an agreement eventually with the other party. So if the terms are not too egregious, why not do the deal now and bank the certainty? It boils down to how much money you pay, and when

    The US, who doesn't have the same sensitivities as UK could see this clearly so we pushing UK hard to get an agreement, to the extent of undermining the British case at the international courts.
    With friends like that ;)
    Yes but without those "friends" Chagos would have been part of an independent Mauritius in 1968 and the whole problem of ownership would have been moot.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,186

    Is the BBC still promoting the fantasy of 14,000 dead babies in Gaza?

    How many dead babies is the correct figure?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,765

    @MoonRabbit
    I would have thought Mauritius was closer to China than India.

    Politically possibly, but certainly not geographically.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,186

    @MoonRabbit
    I would have thought Mauritius was closer to China than India.

    Politically possibly, but certainly not geographically.
    I meant politically.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,991

    Is the BBC still promoting the fantasy of 14,000 dead babies in Gaza?

    How many dead babies is acceptable in Gaza?

    I know you're making a point about reporting but there is a much bigger question.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,959
    Right @cookie

    Having visited the withnail and I farmhouse I am now - on your advice - heading for this so-called “Ullswater” to talk to your beloved “Aire Force”, in bright spring sunshine. It better be good or there will be words
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,754
    isam said:

    At 100/1, Katie Lam has the makings of a good bet for next Tory leader. That’s with William Hill, but I’m hoping other bookies may offer bigger

    She speaks eloquently and firmly on immigration, I think she will be a star

    Katie Lam has been an MP for less than a year. She might be a future leader but the bet is on the next leader.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,302
    edited 9:35AM
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Forget Chagos.

    This report by the Justice Committee is utterly damning. Law and order is the most basic function of the state and it is failing. If the state can't or won't get this right, little chance of it getting anything else right.

    https://x.com/commonsjustice/status/1925793948917809228?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    Or you can read this damning analysis here - https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/ccrc-chief-must-go.

    It's a very different institution, but the CCRC reminds me of OFSTED - or OFWAT - in the way it seems almost completely impervious to criticism in the wake of notorious public failings.

    And it's something that seems to persist whichever government is in power.
    Or the Met and many other police forces or the Post Office or parts of the NHS (maternity care, for instance) or any of the institutions I've lambasted in countless headers over the years.

    We have for many years combined a culture of low expectations with delusions about our institutions being as good as we vaingloriously claim. And this is the inevitable result.
    Not all are the same complexity of problem, though.

    We couldn't manage without the NHS or a police force - but it would be perfectly possible to get rid of OFWAT overnight (with various options for either replacing it, managing its role directly in government, or simply nationalising the industry), or sack the entire management of the CCRC and rebuild it from scratch, without doing significant damage to their functions.

    Tackling the Met or NHS management failings is a more complicated endeavour.
    Impose some penalty for failure.

    In the Goode Olde Days, the CEOs for failed banks had the following options

    1) blow their brains out with a pistol
    2) flee the country in a small yacht and get murdered by whalers.

    Two thoughts, one relating to the Cole household and one general.
    1. The blue-tit chicks in our televised nest box have this morning fledged and gone. Ten eggs laid, eight hatched and five chicks have eventually flown the nest.

    2. One feature of Thatcherism with which I completely disagreed (among others I must confess) was her assertion, and creation of a climate of opinion among her supporters, that it was 'wrong' for the best minds from university to go into the Civil Service, or indeed any form of public service. It was their duty to make money, to create wealth, which would then 'trickle down'.
    With the result that over the last 40 years that's exactly what happened. And the results are plain for all to see.
    The slight problem with believing that 2) has had an effect is that it isn’t what happened. Read the CVs of the finest examples of #NU10K - loads of Oxbridge firsts.

    The disastrous idiocy of generalist management was apparent before WWI. See Denny & longitudinal framing for destroyers etc
    Leaders ought to be generalists. The problem is when generalists think their skill in one field means that they can master every field.

    A great example in literature is Saruman. A gifted magician and technologist, who failed spectacularly as a military commander.
    Not really true of Saruman. He defeated the Rohirrim at the first and second battles of the Fords of Isen and only lost at Helms Deep after 'Ents dear boy, Ents'. (Huorns actually)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,222

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Amorin needs to receive the backing of the board and get rid of the dross

    The list of players not upto playing for United is extensive and certainly Rashford, Sancho, Anthony, Hoyland, Onana, Shaw, Eriksen, Casemiro, Zirtzee, Lindelof to name the obvious and why Amorin has to recruit new replacements by next season
    Perhaps it is Man Utd who are not up to managing the players? Why is Rashford Championship standard at Man Utd and Champions League standard at Aston Villa after a couple of weeks training?

    It is not particularly the players nor the manager but the whole club. Needs a big culture change and they are not ready to invest in that yet, still searching for the quick fixes instead.
    Rashford was no different at Villa than United and showed all his bad traits which are obvious to any United supporter

    Also he won't be at Villa next season
    Record with Villa

    Started 10 games, won 7, lost 2 to Man City and PSG. Took starting spot of Englands second choice striker, and got England recall

    Record with Man Utd this ssn

    Started 19 games, won 8, lost 4 - better than when they didnt play him.

    He is clearly well above Man Utds current level - that you think he is beneath you is a culture problem.

    Villa are but Rashford is not the player you think he is

    He is moody, lazy, easily distracted, and badly advised
    So is Cunha, with added red cards and suspensions, yet Man Utd are paying £62.5m to Wolves to get him to replace Rashford who they will pay to get him off their books.

    McTominay wasn't "good enough" last year, this year key man and permanent starter for Napoli winning Serie A.

    It is not the players.
    The coaching problems started under Ferguson, who also managed to make great players underperform when they came to Old Trafford, such as Pogba and Veron.

    Massive culture change required, but the Glazers are a barrier to fixing the issues.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,900

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Manchester United's two problems are being cleaned out by the Glazers and Ferguson retiring on his 102nd birthday.
    Sometimes you just need the right manager. Swindon were heading out of the league at Christmas, appointed Ian Holloway and the same players took the side to the brink of the play-offs. The run of form since Christmas would have won the title if it had been from August.
    Holloway took the game back to basics, simplified what the players were being asked to do and it clicked.

    United's problem is partly Alex Ferguson and partly that the players who are at the club no longer work as if their lives depend on it. Too many seem to think "I'm a Man Utd player, therefore I'm great and we will just win every game". In the modern Premiership you have to work in every game, even against Leicester.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,181

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Amorin needs to receive the backing of the board and get rid of the dross

    The list of players not upto playing for United is extensive and certainly Rashford, Sancho, Anthony, Hoyland, Onana, Shaw, Eriksen, Casemiro, Zirtzee, Lindelof to name the obvious and why Amorin has to recruit new replacements by next season
    Perhaps it is Man Utd who are not up to managing the players? Why is Rashford Championship standard at Man Utd and Champions League standard at Aston Villa after a couple of weeks training?

    It is not particularly the players nor the manager but the whole club. Needs a big culture change and they are not ready to invest in that yet, still searching for the quick fixes instead.
    Rashford was no different at Villa than United and showed all his bad traits which are obvious to any United supporter

    Also he won't be at Villa next season
    Record with Villa

    Started 10 games, won 7, lost 2 to Man City and PSG. Took starting spot of Englands second choice striker, and got England recall

    Record with Man Utd this ssn

    Started 19 games, won 8, lost 4 - better than when they didnt play him.

    He is clearly well above Man Utds current level - that you think he is beneath you is a culture problem.

    Villa are but Rashford is not the player you think he is

    He is moody, lazy, easily distracted, and badly advised
    So is Cunha, with added red cards and suspensions, yet Man Utd are paying £62.5m to Wolves to get him to replace Rashford who they will pay to get him off their books.

    McTominay wasn't "good enough" last year, this year key man and permanent starter for Napoli winning Serie A.

    It is not the players.
    The coaching problems started under Ferguson, who also managed to make great players underperform when they came to Old Trafford, such as Pogba and Veron.

    Massive culture change required, but the Glazers are a barrier to fixing the issues.
    Big Sam is available
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,339
    edited 9:35AM

    @MoonRabbit
    I would have thought Mauritius was closer politically to China than India.

    Opponents of the deal have been pushing that narrative, but it's bollocks. China has made some investments in Mauritius, but Mauritius has long been close (politically, economically and geographically) to India. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Mauritius_relations for more.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 262
    FF43 said:

    Is the BBC still promoting the fantasy of 14,000 dead babies in Gaza?

    How many dead babies is acceptable in Gaza?

    I know you're making a point about reporting but there is a much bigger question.
    For sure there are big questions about how Israel is going about its war and what the end point will be. But the egregious behaviour of the UN and its agencies is a much under discussed part of the war. We don't seem short of criticisms of Netanyahu.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,566
    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    Incidentally the alternative path is not to say "we don't respect the law", but to be lawyerly and operate to the letter of the law.

    'This was an advisory ruling, we disagree with the advice. We are not obliged to act on it. The UK respects the rule of law and will always enact its legal obligations.'

    Then move on.

    I think that is the realistic alternative, which was the approach taken by the previous government. The problem with play-for-time, it's not an end state and you will probably have do an agreement eventually with the other party. So if the terms are not too egregious, why not do the deal now and bank the certainty? It boils down to how much money you pay, and when

    The US, who doesn't have the same sensitivities as UK could see this clearly so we pushing UK hard to get an agreement, to the extent of undermining the British case at the international courts.
    With friends like that ...
    ... you're on a hiding to nothing.

    Which is presumably why we did the deal.

    The alternative, since we don't have the clout to hold on to it alone in the long term, might have been to evict the US and have an EU base there...
    Not sure that would fly.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,775

    isam said:

    At 100/1, Katie Lam has the makings of a good bet for next Tory leader. That’s with William Hill, but I’m hoping other bookies may offer bigger

    She speaks eloquently and firmly on immigration, I think she will be a star

    Katie Lam has been an MP for less than a year. She might be a future leader but the bet is on the next leader.
    Yes, that’s a snag that 100/1 might not be big enough to overcome. She’ll row in behind Jenrick next time I suppose
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,261

    @MoonRabbit
    I would have thought Mauritius was closer to China than India.

    Politically possibly, but certainly not geographically.
    I skipped Geography lessons and always have to look things up too Sunil.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,757
    edited 9:36AM

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Forget Chagos.

    This report by the Justice Committee is utterly damning. Law and order is the most basic function of the state and it is failing. If the state can't or won't get this right, little chance of it getting anything else right.

    https://x.com/commonsjustice/status/1925793948917809228?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    Or you can read this damning analysis here - https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/ccrc-chief-must-go.

    It's a very different institution, but the CCRC reminds me of OFSTED - or OFWAT - in the way it seems almost completely impervious to criticism in the wake of notorious public failings.

    And it's something that seems to persist whichever government is in power.
    Or the Met and many other police forces or the Post Office or parts of the NHS (maternity care, for instance) or any of the institutions I've lambasted in countless headers over the years.

    We have for many years combined a culture of low expectations with delusions about our institutions being as good as we vaingloriously claim. And this is the inevitable result.
    Not all are the same complexity of problem, though.

    We couldn't manage without the NHS or a police force - but it would be perfectly possible to get rid of OFWAT overnight (with various options for either replacing it, managing its role directly in government, or simply nationalising the industry), or sack the entire management of the CCRC and rebuild it from scratch, without doing significant damage to their functions.

    Tackling the Met or NHS management failings is a more complicated endeavour.
    Impose some penalty for failure.

    In the Goode Olde Days, the CEOs for failed banks had the following options

    1) blow their brains out with a pistol
    2) flee the country in a small yacht and get murdered by whalers.

    Two thoughts, one relating to the Cole household and one general.
    1. The blue-tit chicks in our televised nest box have this morning fledged and gone. Ten eggs laid, eight hatched and five chicks have eventually flown the nest.

    2. One feature of Thatcherism with which I completely disagreed (among others I must confess) was her assertion, and creation of a climate of opinion among her supporters, that it was 'wrong' for the best minds from university to go into the Civil Service, or indeed any form of public service. It was their duty to make money, to create wealth, which would then 'trickle down'.
    With the result that over the last 40 years that's exactly what happened. And the results are plain for all to see.
    The slight problem with believing that 2) has had an effect is that it isn’t what happened. Read the CVs of the finest examples of #NU10K - loads of Oxbridge firsts.

    The disastrous idiocy of generalist management was apparent before WWI. See Denny & longitudinal framing for destroyers etc
    Leaders ought to be generalists. The problem is when generalists think their skill in one field means that they can master every field.

    A great example in literature is Saruman. A gifted magician and technologist, who failed spectacularly as a military commander.
    Not really true of Saruman. He defeated the Rohirrim at the first and second battles of the Fords of Isen and only lost at Helms Deep after 'Ents dear boy, Ents'.
    His failure was having no proper operational plan. He could have taken either Edoras, or Helms Deep, after those victories, had he marched on either stronghold. Instead, he allowed his army to disperse and pillage.

    One of the things I like about Tolkien, old soldier that he was, is his attention to the details of strategy, operations, tactics, and logistics, which plenty of fantasy writers ignore.

    He knew of the ents, and he ought to have factored them into his plans.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,694
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Forget Chagos.

    This report by the Justice Committee is utterly damning. Law and order is the most basic function of the state and it is failing. If the state can't or won't get this right, little chance of it getting anything else right.

    https://x.com/commonsjustice/status/1925793948917809228?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    Or you can read this damning analysis here - https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/ccrc-chief-must-go.

    It's a very different institution, but the CCRC reminds me of OFSTED - or OFWAT - in the way it seems almost completely impervious to criticism in the wake of notorious public failings.

    And it's something that seems to persist whichever government is in power.
    Or the Met and many other police forces or the Post Office or parts of the NHS (maternity care, for instance) or any of the institutions I've lambasted in countless headers over the years.

    We have for many years combined a culture of low expectations with delusions about our institutions being as good as we vaingloriously claim. And this is the inevitable result.
    Not all are the same complexity of problem, though.

    We couldn't manage without the NHS or a police force - but it would be perfectly possible to get rid of OFWAT overnight (with various options for either replacing it, managing its role directly in government, or simply nationalising the industry), or sack the entire management of the CCRC and rebuild it from scratch, without doing significant damage to their functions.

    Tackling the Met or NHS management failings is a more complicated endeavour.
    Impose some penalty for failure.

    In the Goode Olde Days, the CEOs for failed banks had the following options

    1) blow their brains out with a pistol
    2) flee the country in a small yacht and get murdered by whalers.

    Two thoughts, one relating to the Cole household and one general.
    1. The blue-tit chicks in our televised nest box have this morning fledged and gone. Ten eggs laid, eight hatched and five chicks have eventually flown the nest.

    2. One feature of Thatcherism with which I completely disagreed (among others I must confess) was her assertion, and creation of a climate of opinion among her supporters, that it was 'wrong' for the best minds from university to go into the Civil Service, or indeed any form of public service. It was their duty to make money, to create wealth, which would then 'trickle down'.
    With the result that over the last 40 years that's exactly what happened. And the results are plain for all to see.
    The slight problem with believing that 2) has had an effect is that it isn’t what happened. Read the CVs of the finest examples of #NU10K - loads of Oxbridge firsts.

    The disastrous idiocy of generalist management was apparent before WWI. See Denny & longitudinal framing for destroyers etc
    Leaders ought to be generalists. The problem is when generalists think their skill in one field means that they can master every field.

    A great example in literature is Saruman. A gifted magician and technologist, who failed spectacularly as a military commander.
    The problem with generalists is slightly different to that.

    Many believe that technical expertise in a field can be bought in, like cleaners for the toilets. That said expertise isn’t a *core function* of the business and can be disregarded when the answers go against “good business practise”.

    See BritVolt where anyone who actually knew anything about batteries was excluded from leadership.

    The leadership of an organisation needed to be deeply skilled in the function of that organisation.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,754
    scampi25 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Complete nutter:

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/22/court-ruling-legal-definition-of-a-woman-misinterpreted-lady-hale

    The 80-year-old, who is a member of the House of Lords, also questioned what was meant by “biological sex”.

    “I was with some doctors last week who said there is no such thing as biological sex,” she said.


    Presumably she was with a psychiatrist...as a patient!
    Lady Hale is former head of the Supreme Court. She is the one with the brooch who upset Boris. When she says, as a lawyer, that the Supreme Court's ruling has been misinterpreted in some quarters, it is just possible that, in an ex officio capacity, she might have a point.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,566
    Leon said:

    Right @cookie

    Having visited the withnail and I farmhouse I am now - on your advice - heading for this so-called “Ullswater” to talk to your beloved “Aire Force”, in bright spring sunshine. It better be good or there will be words

    Forecast looks OK.

    On the same side of the lake, the church where my uncle is buried.


  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 262

    scampi25 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Complete nutter:

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/22/court-ruling-legal-definition-of-a-woman-misinterpreted-lady-hale

    The 80-year-old, who is a member of the House of Lords, also questioned what was meant by “biological sex”.

    “I was with some doctors last week who said there is no such thing as biological sex,” she said.


    Presumably she was with a psychiatrist...as a patient!
    Lady Hale is former head of the Supreme Court. She is the one with the brooch who upset Boris. When she says, as a lawyer, that the Supreme Court's ruling has been misinterpreted in some quarters, it is just possible that, in an ex officio capacity, she might have a point.
    That's fine. But it's not the bit that has got people raising eyebrows.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,339

    FF43 said:

    Is the BBC still promoting the fantasy of 14,000 dead babies in Gaza?

    How many dead babies is acceptable in Gaza?

    I know you're making a point about reporting but there is a much bigger question.
    For sure there are big questions about how Israel is going about its war and what the end point will be. But the egregious behaviour of the UN and its agencies is a much under discussed part of the war. We don't seem short of criticisms of Netanyahu.
    We're not short of criticisms of Bibi because he's massively corrupt, currently on trial because of that and using war to distract from his political problems. The Israeli people don't trust him: e.g. "Asked if they trust the current Netanyahu government, 70% of respondents said they do not, compared to 27% who said they do. Even among coalition voters, just 51% said they trust the government, compared to 36% who said they do not." from https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-70-of-israelis-dont-trust-government-including-almost-half-of-coalition-voters/ . He'd lose power if an election was held now: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-05-21/ty-article/.premium/poll-ex-pm-bennett-leads-as-netanyahu-coalition-loses-knesset-majority/00000196-f1e0-dd8e-adff-ffe01e800000
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,566

    scampi25 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Complete nutter:

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/22/court-ruling-legal-definition-of-a-woman-misinterpreted-lady-hale

    The 80-year-old, who is a member of the House of Lords, also questioned what was meant by “biological sex”.

    “I was with some doctors last week who said there is no such thing as biological sex,” she said.

    Presumably she was with a psychiatrist...as a patient!
    Lady Hale is former head of the Supreme Court. She is the one with the brooch who upset Boris. When she says, as a lawyer, that the Supreme Court's ruling has been misinterpreted in some quarters, it is just possible that, in an ex officio capacity, she might have a point.
    That's fine. But it's not the bit that has got people raising eyebrows.
    What, this ?

    ..The “proper answer to all of this”, she believed, was “somewhere in the middle. So that’s what I very much hope we will come out with when people have calmed down and start being sensible about things.”..
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,336
    tlg86 said:

    Complete nutter:

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/22/court-ruling-legal-definition-of-a-woman-misinterpreted-lady-hale

    The 80-year-old, who is a member of the House of Lords, also questioned what was meant by “biological sex”.

    “I was with some doctors last week who said there is no such thing as biological sex,” she said.

    Are you mansplaining to this woman?
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 262
    Nigelb said:

    scampi25 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Complete nutter:

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/22/court-ruling-legal-definition-of-a-woman-misinterpreted-lady-hale

    The 80-year-old, who is a member of the House of Lords, also questioned what was meant by “biological sex”.

    “I was with some doctors last week who said there is no such thing as biological sex,” she said.

    Presumably she was with a psychiatrist...as a patient!
    Lady Hale is former head of the Supreme Court. She is the one with the brooch who upset Boris. When she says, as a lawyer, that the Supreme Court's ruling has been misinterpreted in some quarters, it is just possible that, in an ex officio capacity, she might have a point.
    That's fine. But it's not the bit that has got people raising eyebrows.
    What, this ?

    ..The “proper answer to all of this”, she believed, was “somewhere in the middle. So that’s what I very much hope we will come out with when people have calmed down and start being sensible about things.”..
    Er.... no. The quote about doctors not believing in biological sex.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,959
    The Chagos deal is genuinely appalling. Even the Economist despairs of the naivety and foolishness

    But just as importantly it can be used, day after day, to break Starmer. To expose him as a two tier hypocrite, a quisling, a grifter, and an imbecile

    Alongside much else, it will undo him
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,261
    edited 9:51AM

    @MoonRabbit
    I would have thought Mauritius was closer politically to China than India.

    Opponents of the deal have been pushing that narrative, but it's bollocks. China has made some investments in Mauritius, but Mauritius has long been close (politically, economically and geographically) to India. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Mauritius_relations for more.
    Opponents of the deal always mentioned China, but never mentioned India. When you go to Indian newspapers online, you suddenly got a completely different impression, as India feels they created all this and owns the success.

    https://ddnews.gov.in/en/uk-signs-chagos-deal-with-mauritius-india-welcomes-move/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,959
    Every time the government says “sorry we can’t afford that” people will say “yet you can afford to give a foreign power £150 million a year for TAKING OUR PROPERTY”

    There’s no way around that for Labour or Starmer
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,351
    edited 9:51AM

    Are you listening Arteta?

    Liverpool head coach Arne Slot says excuses are "for teams that don't win the league", and it is "nice" his side won the Premier League so he does not have to rely on them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cqxee7p5x48o

    Never mind Arteta. United now have to choose between dispensing of yet another manager and finding someone who can coach that lot into shape, or give him £100m to buy a handful of good players to turn into crap players.

    Amorim has said he will walk for nothing if they ask. So ask. Bring back Solksjaer from Turkey.
    Amorin needs to receive the backing of the board and get rid of the dross

    The list of players not upto playing for United is extensive and certainly Rashford, Sancho, Anthony, Hoyland, Onana, Shaw, Eriksen, Casemiro, Zirtzee, Lindelof to name the obvious and why Amorin has to recruit new replacements by next season
    Perhaps it is Man Utd who are not up to managing the players? Why is Rashford Championship standard at Man Utd and Champions League standard at Aston Villa after a couple of weeks training?

    It is not particularly the players nor the manager but the whole club. Needs a big culture change and they are not ready to invest in that yet, still searching for the quick fixes instead.
    Rashford was no different at Villa than United and showed all his bad traits which are obvious to any United supporter

    Also he won't be at Villa next season
    Record with Villa

    Started 10 games, won 7, lost 2 to Man City and PSG. Took starting spot of Englands second choice striker, and got England recall

    Record with Man Utd this ssn

    Started 19 games, won 8, lost 4 - better than when they didnt play him.

    He is clearly well above Man Utds current level - that you think he is beneath you is a culture problem.

    Villa are but Rashford is not the player you think he is

    He is moody, lazy, easily distracted, and badly advised
    So is Cunha, with added red cards and suspensions, yet Man Utd are paying £62.5m to Wolves to get him to replace Rashford who they will pay to get him off their books.

    McTominay wasn't "good enough" last year, this year key man and permanent starter for Napoli winning Serie A.

    It is not the players.
    Rashford at £325,000 a week is utterly ridiculous and United recovering £40 million or so and paying an additional £22.5 million for a better player and half the wages is a good deal
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,181
    Leon said:

    The Chagos deal is genuinely appalling. Even the Economist despairs of the naivety and foolishness

    But just as importantly it can be used, day after day, to break Starmer. To expose him as a two tier hypocrite, a quisling, a grifter, and an imbecile

    Alongside much else, it will undo him

    Do you really think people care about a place they've only vaguely heard of? This won't register on the political preference to vote decision tree - people are voting for reasons slightly closer to home.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,302
    edited 9:52AM
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Forget Chagos.

    This report by the Justice Committee is utterly damning. Law and order is the most basic function of the state and it is failing. If the state can't or won't get this right, little chance of it getting anything else right.

    https://x.com/commonsjustice/status/1925793948917809228?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    Or you can read this damning analysis here - https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/ccrc-chief-must-go.

    It's a very different institution, but the CCRC reminds me of OFSTED - or OFWAT - in the way it seems almost completely impervious to criticism in the wake of notorious public failings.

    And it's something that seems to persist whichever government is in power.
    Or the Met and many other police forces or the Post Office or parts of the NHS (maternity care, for instance) or any of the institutions I've lambasted in countless headers over the years.

    We have for many years combined a culture of low expectations with delusions about our institutions being as good as we vaingloriously claim. And this is the inevitable result.
    Not all are the same complexity of problem, though.

    We couldn't manage without the NHS or a police force - but it would be perfectly possible to get rid of OFWAT overnight (with various options for either replacing it, managing its role directly in government, or simply nationalising the industry), or sack the entire management of the CCRC and rebuild it from scratch, without doing significant damage to their functions.

    Tackling the Met or NHS management failings is a more complicated endeavour.
    Impose some penalty for failure.

    In the Goode Olde Days, the CEOs for failed banks had the following options

    1) blow their brains out with a pistol
    2) flee the country in a small yacht and get murdered by whalers.

    Two thoughts, one relating to the Cole household and one general.
    1. The blue-tit chicks in our televised nest box have this morning fledged and gone. Ten eggs laid, eight hatched and five chicks have eventually flown the nest.

    2. One feature of Thatcherism with which I completely disagreed (among others I must confess) was her assertion, and creation of a climate of opinion among her supporters, that it was 'wrong' for the best minds from university to go into the Civil Service, or indeed any form of public service. It was their duty to make money, to create wealth, which would then 'trickle down'.
    With the result that over the last 40 years that's exactly what happened. And the results are plain for all to see.
    The slight problem with believing that 2) has had an effect is that it isn’t what happened. Read the CVs of the finest examples of #NU10K - loads of Oxbridge firsts.

    The disastrous idiocy of generalist management was apparent before WWI. See Denny & longitudinal framing for destroyers etc
    Leaders ought to be generalists. The problem is when generalists think their skill in one field means that they can master every field.

    A great example in literature is Saruman. A gifted magician and technologist, who failed spectacularly as a military commander.
    Not really true of Saruman. He defeated the Rohirrim at the first and second battles of the Fords of Isen and only lost at Helms Deep after 'Ents dear boy, Ents'.
    His failure was having no proper operational plan. He could have taken either Edoras, or Helms Deep, after those victories, had he marched on either stronghold. Instead, he allowed his army to disperse and pillage.

    One of the things I like about Tolkien, old soldier that he was, is his attention to the details of strategy, operations, tactics, and logistics, which plenty of fantasy writers ignore.

    He knew of the ents, and he ought to have factored them into his plans.
    Hmmmm, I'm not so sure about that. The first battle of Isen saw the Rohirrim hold the Fords but at the loss of Theodred, Theodens heir and a lot of troops. Saruman ordered Theodred killed at all costs meaning he may have sacrificed a quicker win but he calculated the loss of Theodred would finally break Theoden. The second battle occured whilst Gandalf etc were in Edoras, the Rohirrim lost the Fords and retreated in disarray but before the Isengardians could take Helms Deep or March on Edoras, Theoden etc had already set out to meet them and diverted to Helms Deep on receiving word on the road of the loss at Isen, hence Saruman threw everything at them there, there was no wasted time pillaging etc as shown in the films.
    Re the Ents, they were docile and not a threat until the hobbits blundered into Fangorn and did their thing waking the ire of the Ents. Not something anyone would have considered or factored in.
    He was no great military commander but he lost. His tactics were acceptable. Biggest mistake was going after Theodred at all costs, but that's with the benefit of fiction hindsight
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,324
    tlg86 said:

    Complete nutter:

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/22/court-ruling-legal-definition-of-a-woman-misinterpreted-lady-hale

    The 80-year-old, who is a member of the House of Lords, also questioned what was meant by “biological sex”.

    “I was with some doctors last week who said there is no such thing as biological sex,” she said.

    Unfair comment really. Overall what she said was moderate and fine, and made the point that people have massively gone OTT about the meaning of a judgment, which was on a narrow point of statutory meaning, which of course parliament has absolute power to amend if it wishes.

    As to 'no such thing as biological sex'. This is a silly thing to say unless you make clear what you mean. In particular it is very unlikely that doctors meant that there are no interesting and important differences WRT genital and reproductive arrangements as between two quite large and identifiable groups, and so categorised at birth. So it was probably an argument about the use of words, rather than the reality of things. Who can tell?

    Words are only much use when they are about the reality of things and not just wordy preferences.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,775
    Leon said:

    Every time the government says “sorry we can’t afford that” people will say “yet you can afford to give a foreign power £150 million a year for TAKING OUR PROPERTY”

    There’s no way around that for Labour or Starmer

    And today it’s reported they’ve been shady on the NHS too. Dropping points at home
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,068
    Reading Katie Lam’s bio, she went to Trinity Hall, Cambridge then to Goldman Sachs which is what a lot of awesome people do, isn’t that right Robert?

    However based on current polling she’s going to lose her seat at the next election to Reform
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,336

    Reading Katie Lam’s bio, she went to Trinity Hall, Cambridge then to Goldman Sachs which is what a lot of awesome people do, isn’t that right Robert?

    However based on current polling she’s going to lose her seat at the next election to Reform

    She sounds suspiciously like the metropolitan elite
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,051
    scampi25 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Complete nutter:

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/22/court-ruling-legal-definition-of-a-woman-misinterpreted-lady-hale

    The 80-year-old, who is a member of the House of Lords, also questioned what was meant by “biological sex”.

    “I was with some doctors last week who said there is no such thing as biological sex,” she said.


    Presumably she was with a psychiatrist...as a patient!
    A person of considerable intellect who has fully merited all her appointments.
    A stronger reason for patriotism that this is(was) possible in the UK than anything cited by the usual flag-shaggers.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,644

    Leon said:

    The Chagos deal is genuinely appalling. Even the Economist despairs of the naivety and foolishness

    But just as importantly it can be used, day after day, to break Starmer. To expose him as a two tier hypocrite, a quisling, a grifter, and an imbecile

    Alongside much else, it will undo him

    Do you really think people care about a place they've only vaguely heard of?...
    Do I think people care about a place they've only vaguely heard of?

    No

    Do I think people care about £165mill for yrs 1-3 plus £120mill for yrs 4-13 plus £120mill+inflation for yrs 14-99 plus ANOTHER £45mill for yrs 1-25 plus £40mill now.

    Yes.

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,996
    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally the alternative path is not to say "we don't respect the law", but to be lawyerly and operate to the letter of the law.

    'This was an advisory ruling, we disagree with the advice. We are not obliged to act on it. The UK respects the rule of law and will always enact its legal obligations.'

    Then move on.

    To the next court case ?

    The base only has value as a secure asset. If it's at the mercy of the next international court judgment, then it's less secure.

    There were respectable reasons for doing the deal, whether or not you agree with them.

    A better question is whether we overpaid, and if so, by how much.
    It's not at the mercy of any international court judgment as no international court has jurisdiction.

    The relevant court can only make advisory rulings.

    The UN Security Council can make firmer international law rulings, however we have a veto there so we could veto any motion in the Security Council.

    So following the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of its "advice" we had no obligations to act.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,068

    Reading Katie Lam’s bio, she went to Trinity Hall, Cambridge then to Goldman Sachs which is what a lot of awesome people do, isn’t that right Robert?

    However based on current polling she’s going to lose her seat at the next election to Reform

    She sounds suspiciously like the metropolitan elite
    Absolutely not, she read Classics at university which what the working class love.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,324
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Right @cookie

    Having visited the withnail and I farmhouse I am now - on your advice - heading for this so-called “Ullswater” to talk to your beloved “Aire Force”, in bright spring sunshine. It better be good or there will be words

    Forecast looks OK.

    On the same side of the lake, the church where my uncle is buried.


    Rain should arrive in Cumbria this evening. The first for many weeks, coinciding with half term. Last year at this time thousands of fields had been under water most of the year and it was still raining every day.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,765

    Leon said:

    The Chagos deal is genuinely appalling. Even the Economist despairs of the naivety and foolishness

    But just as importantly it can be used, day after day, to break Starmer. To expose him as a two tier hypocrite, a quisling, a grifter, and an imbecile

    Alongside much else, it will undo him

    Do you really think people care about a place they've only vaguely heard of? This won't register on the political preference to vote decision tree - people are voting for reasons slightly closer to home.
    To be fair, lots of people got very worked up about the Falklands.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,302
    Leon said:

    Every time the government says “sorry we can’t afford that” people will say “yet you can afford to give a foreign power £150 million a year for TAKING OUR PROPERTY”

    There’s no way around that for Labour or Starmer

    Correct. Every shivering pensioner, every impoverished disabled person or carer, every small business closing due to NI. But you can pay Mauritius for our own land.
    Forget the rights, wrongs and the rest, it's a very simple hook for anger and will be repeatedly referred to.
    Sometimes governments do things that cost them dearly in the short and long term. This is one of them.
    Thems the breaks
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,505
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    The Chagos deal is genuinely appalling. Even the Economist despairs of the naivety and foolishness

    But just as importantly it can be used, day after day, to break Starmer. To expose him as a two tier hypocrite, a quisling, a grifter, and an imbecile

    Alongside much else, it will undo him

    Do you really think people care about a place they've only vaguely heard of?...
    Do I think people care about a place they've only vaguely heard of?

    No

    Do I think people care about £165mill for yrs 1-3 plus £120mill for yrs 4-13 plus £120mill+inflation for yrs 14-99 plus ANOTHER £45mill for yrs 1-25 plus £40mill now.

    Yes.

    I'd love to know how an index linked 99 years * 100 odd million only works out to 3.4 billion, extraordinarily heard it was the same long term calculation used for pensions !

    Real book cooking going on tbh.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,644
    Leon said:

    Every time the government says “sorry we can’t afford that” people will say “yet you can afford to give a foreign power £150 million a year for TAKING OUR PROPERTY”

    There’s no way around that for Labour or Starmer

    Don't be silly.

    Pause

    It's more than that

    £165mill for yrs 1-3 plus £120mill for yrs 4-13 plus £120mill+inflation for yrs 14-99 plus ANOTHER £45mill for yrs 1-25 plus £40mill now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,566
    Aside from being straight out of the Orban authoritarianism playbook, this is an act of massive self-harm.

    8 of the top 10 institutions for global research are in China. 2 are in the U.S., and Trump is knee-capping one of them…
    https://x.com/j_g_allen/status/1925702759929577769

    Good time to remind everyone that the US basically jump-started China's space and rocketry program because we kicked Qian Xuesen out of the country during the red scare
    https://x.com/DrChrisCombs/status/1925691515809960339

    This is so monumentally stupid.

    The smartest humans from all around the world come to our elite institutions.

    And then the majority of them stay here, create businesses, and help our economy thrive instead of their birth country.

    It is a cheat code that only the United States has.

    And now we’re going to piss that away too?

    https://x.com/SpencerHakimian/status/1925609202212315507
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,996
    FF43 said:

    Incidentally the alternative path is not to say "we don't respect the law", but to be lawyerly and operate to the letter of the law.

    'This was an advisory ruling, we disagree with the advice. We are not obliged to act on it. The UK respects the rule of law and will always enact its legal obligations.'

    Then move on.

    I think that is the realistic alternative, which was the approach taken by the previous government. The problem with play-for-time, it's not an end state and you will probably have do an agreement eventually with the other party. So if the terms are not too egregious, why not do the deal now and bank the certainty? It boils down to how much money you pay, and when

    The US, who doesn't have the same sensitivities as UK could see this clearly so was pushing UK hard to get an agreement, to the extent of undermining the British case at the international courts.
    We were never under any obligations to make an agreement as there was no court or body that could ever compel us to remove our own sovereign territory.

    They can lodge a dispute. We can say "its our territory" and that's the end of the matter, not playing for time.

    It then becomes international relations, not law. It would only be a matter of law if a body had the legal power to strip us of our sovereignty.

    None does.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,654

    Reading Katie Lam’s bio, she went to Trinity Hall, Cambridge then to Goldman Sachs which is what a lot of awesome people do, isn’t that right Robert?

    However based on current polling she’s going to lose her seat at the next election to Reform

    You could simplify that to based on current party affiliation she's going to lose her seat at the next election to Reform.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,339
    algarkirk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Complete nutter:

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/22/court-ruling-legal-definition-of-a-woman-misinterpreted-lady-hale

    The 80-year-old, who is a member of the House of Lords, also questioned what was meant by “biological sex”.

    “I was with some doctors last week who said there is no such thing as biological sex,” she said.

    Unfair comment really. Overall what she said was moderate and fine, and made the point that people have massively gone OTT about the meaning of a judgment, which was on a narrow point of statutory meaning, which of course parliament has absolute power to amend if it wishes.

    As to 'no such thing as biological sex'. This is a silly thing to say unless you make clear what you mean. In particular it is very unlikely that doctors meant that there are no interesting and important differences WRT genital and reproductive arrangements as between two quite large and identifiable groups, and so categorised at birth. So it was probably an argument about the use of words, rather than the reality of things. Who can tell?

    Words are only much use when they are about the reality of things and not just wordy preferences.
    I would guess what was meant is that biological sex is complicated and that different markers (genitals, chromosomes, hormones, gonads, etc.) don’t always line up.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,336

    FF43 said:

    Incidentally the alternative path is not to say "we don't respect the law", but to be lawyerly and operate to the letter of the law.

    'This was an advisory ruling, we disagree with the advice. We are not obliged to act on it. The UK respects the rule of law and will always enact its legal obligations.'

    Then move on.

    I think that is the realistic alternative, which was the approach taken by the previous government. The problem with play-for-time, it's not an end state and you will probably have do an agreement eventually with the other party. So if the terms are not too egregious, why not do the deal now and bank the certainty? It boils down to how much money you pay, and when

    The US, who doesn't have the same sensitivities as UK could see this clearly so was pushing UK hard to get an agreement, to the extent of undermining the British case at the international courts.
    We were never under any obligations to make an agreement as there was no court or body that could ever compel us to remove our own sovereign territory.

    They can lodge a dispute. We can say "its our territory" and that's the end of the matter, not playing for time.

    It then becomes international relations, not law. It would only be a matter of law if a body had the legal power to strip us of our sovereignty.

    None does.
    The US says “jump” and we say “how high”
  • isamisam Posts: 41,775
    Hattie putting the boot in

    ELECTORAL DYSFUNCTION: @HarrietHarman says PM’s claim he’s u-turning on winter fuel because he has the money to is “not credible” & rather he did it because the policy was so unpopular, with the local elections drubbing the flash point.

    https://x.com/bethrigby/status/1925831246967447765?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,131

    The UN has virtually all of our overseas territories on its decolonisation list, and has done so for decades. Which we've rightly ignored.

    What if they (together with the ICJ) rule that Gibraltar should be given back to Spain or the Falklands to Argentina next?

    A dangerous precedent has been set.

    After Jack Straw tried to sell the Gibraltans down the river in 2002 they got their constitution changed to enshrine self determination as a key principle and to ensure they are involved in any negotiations, they have more 'protection' therefore, same with Falklands, almost nobody living on Falkland or Gibraltar wants to be ruled by Spain or Argentina which would be a factor in any UN interfering. If they ruled Gib to Spain theyd probably also make Spain give up Ceuta and Melila on the N African coast.

    Interestingly if Gibraltar voted to become independent the terms of Utrecht 1713 state if we give up sovereignty we have to offer it to Spain first.
    Unfortunately, in international law that's just a piece of paper stuff (colonial constitutions)

    The treaties would win.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,503
    At least twice now the Mad King has held up an image in the Oval Office and claimed it shows something it clearly doesn't

    In a sane World, the 25th amendment would already be in play

    In his previous term he showed a map with a line drawn on with a Sharpie and claimed it was something it wasn't

    In a sane World, he should never have been allowed to run again

    There is a story today that his one regret from his first term is how little grift he managed. He is making up for that bigly this time around
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,261
    Leon said:

    The Chagos deal is genuinely appalling. Even the Economist despairs of the naivety and foolishness

    But just as importantly it can be used, day after day, to break Starmer. To expose him as a two tier hypocrite, a quisling, a grifter, and an imbecile

    Alongside much else, it will undo him

    It surprised me today, so many of the Daily’s didn’t have it on the front page.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,131
    HYUFD said:

    The UN has virtually all of our overseas territories on its decolonisation list, and has done so for decades. Which we've rightly ignored.

    What if they (together with the ICJ) rule that Gibraltar should be given back to Spain or the Falklands to Argentina next?

    A dangerous precedent has been set.

    After Jack Straw tried to sell the Gibraltans down the river in 2002 they got their constitution changed to enshrine self determination as a key principle and to ensure they are involved in any negotiations, they have more 'protection' therefore, same with Falklands, almost nobody living on Falkland or Gibraltar wants to be ruled by Spain or Argentina which would be a factor in any UN interfering. If they ruled Gib to Spain theyd probably also make Spain give up Ceuta and Melila on the N African coast.

    Interestingly if Gibraltar voted to become independent the terms of Utrecht 1713 state if we give up sovereignty we have to offer it to Spain first.
    The UK has a veto at the UN Security Council anyway
    Like we vetoed BIOT?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,222

    Leon said:

    The Chagos deal is genuinely appalling. Even the Economist despairs of the naivety and foolishness

    But just as importantly it can be used, day after day, to break Starmer. To expose him as a two tier hypocrite, a quisling, a grifter, and an imbecile

    Alongside much else, it will undo him

    Do you really think people care about a place they've only vaguely heard of? This won't register on the political preference to vote decision tree - people are voting for reasons slightly closer to home.
    They will care about the money.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,131

    The UN has virtually all of our overseas territories on its decolonisation list, and has done so for decades. Which we've rightly ignored.

    What if they (together with the ICJ) rule that Gibraltar should be given back to Spain or the Falklands to Argentina next?

    A dangerous precedent has been set.

    There is a major difference. Falklands and Gibraltar are inhabited by people who claim self-determination to be governed by the UK. Chagos is inhabited by the US Air Force.
    That's the argument we've been making to the UN for decades.

    Have they taken the territories off the decolonisation list?

    No.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,302

    Reading Katie Lam’s bio, she went to Trinity Hall, Cambridge then to Goldman Sachs which is what a lot of awesome people do, isn’t that right Robert?

    However based on current polling she’s going to lose her seat at the next election to Reform

    So would all of them on current polling just about.
    Weald of Kent will stay Tory, it was one of the seats they'd have held if you map the May 1st ward results across. If she loses it there won't be a parliamentary party worth leading
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,909
    Leon said:

    Right @cookie

    Having visited the withnail and I farmhouse I am now - on your advice - heading for this so-called “Ullswater” to talk to your beloved “Aire Force”, in bright spring sunshine. It better be good or there will be words

    I hope there's some statues there to the gods that made that film!!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,302
    isam said:

    Hattie putting the boot in

    ELECTORAL DYSFUNCTION: @HarrietHarman says PM’s claim he’s u-turning on winter fuel because he has the money to is “not credible” & rather he did it because the policy was so unpopular, with the local elections drubbing the flash point.

    https://x.com/bethrigby/status/1925831246967447765?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Harriet continued 'i would like to say Angela Rayner is just super, apropos of nothing'
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,324
    edited 10:10AM

    algarkirk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Complete nutter:

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/22/court-ruling-legal-definition-of-a-woman-misinterpreted-lady-hale

    The 80-year-old, who is a member of the House of Lords, also questioned what was meant by “biological sex”.

    “I was with some doctors last week who said there is no such thing as biological sex,” she said.

    Unfair comment really. Overall what she said was moderate and fine, and made the point that people have massively gone OTT about the meaning of a judgment, which was on a narrow point of statutory meaning, which of course parliament has absolute power to amend if it wishes.

    As to 'no such thing as biological sex'. This is a silly thing to say unless you make clear what you mean. In particular it is very unlikely that doctors meant that there are no interesting and important differences WRT genital and reproductive arrangements as between two quite large and identifiable groups, and so categorised at birth. So it was probably an argument about the use of words, rather than the reality of things. Who can tell?

    Words are only much use when they are about the reality of things and not just wordy preferences.
    I would guess what was meant is that biological sex is complicated and that different markers (genitals, chromosomes, hormones, gonads, etc.) don’t always line up.
    That sounds about right. 'No such thing as biological sex' is not a great line however if you mean that humans are complicated, and some more complicated than others WRT how various elements making up the body and the person line up.

    There absolutely is such a thing as biological sex, mostly indicating two large groups distinct, identified at birth with well marked distinctively different genital and reproductive arrangements, most members of these groups manage to live the whole of their lives without asking a lot of gender and sex identity questions of themselves. Some are not in that situation.

    Medics use all sorts of strange lingo to describe stuff. That's fine. Ordinary language persists too, and there is nothing wrong with it.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 262
    Here's my guess and I suppose it's nothing more than that:

    We know Sir Keir had made a promise to Esther Rantzen. Did he make a promise to one of his friends over Chagos?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,321

    Leon said:

    The Chagos deal is genuinely appalling. Even the Economist despairs of the naivety and foolishness

    But just as importantly it can be used, day after day, to break Starmer. To expose him as a two tier hypocrite, a quisling, a grifter, and an imbecile

    Alongside much else, it will undo him

    It surprised me today, so many of the Daily’s didn’t have it on the front page.
    Are they planning a big handover ceremony?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,186

    Reading Katie Lam’s bio, she went to Trinity Hall, Cambridge then to Goldman Sachs which is what a lot of awesome people do, isn’t that right Robert?

    However based on current polling she’s going to lose her seat at the next election to Reform

    She sounds suspiciously like the metropolitan elite
    Absolutely not, she read Classics at university which what the working class love.
    Didn't nick Griffin go to Cambridge? :innocent:
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,959

    Leon said:

    The Chagos deal is genuinely appalling. Even the Economist despairs of the naivety and foolishness

    But just as importantly it can be used, day after day, to break Starmer. To expose him as a two tier hypocrite, a quisling, a grifter, and an imbecile

    Alongside much else, it will undo him

    Do you really think people care about a place they've only vaguely heard of? This won't register on the political preference to vote decision tree - people are voting for reasons slightly closer to home.
    SHOW ME THE MONEY

    At a time the government is pleading total poverty, it finds hundreds of millions a year to pay a faraway country so that they can take what is already ours

    That’s the breakdown. Even a cretin can see the grotesqueness of the spectacle
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,566
    edited 10:15AM
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Every time the government says “sorry we can’t afford that” people will say “yet you can afford to give a foreign power £150 million a year for TAKING OUR PROPERTY”

    There’s no way around that for Labour or Starmer

    Don't be silly.

    Pause

    It's more than that

    £165mill for yrs 1-3 plus £120mill for yrs 4-13 plus £120mill+inflation for yrs 14-99 plus ANOTHER £45mill for yrs 1-25 plus £40mill now.
    So what's the net present value of the whole deal ?
    (We should have A Meeks back to do this.)

    Assuming 2% inflation over the next 14 years (at a minimum) the value of £120m in 14 years' time is equivalent to around £90m today (which is thereafter indexed).
    £3bn invested in a FTSE tracker should return something around that as annual income. Call it £5bn for a margin of safety.

    That then is a reasonable guesstimate of the cost of years 14-99 ?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,754
    The three-step Russian tactic driving back Ukraine
    Moscow’s armies are deploying a military strategy that is yielding slow but steady territorial gains

    Russia is deploying a military strategy known as the “triple chokehold” to grind down Ukrainian troops, according to experts.

    Kyiv’s forces are facing severe pressure on multiple fronts while Russia works to edge them towards exhaustion by integrating three combat elements into a cohesive strategy greater than the sum of its parts.

    Vladimir Putin’s forces are launching ground assaults to pin troops down, then dropping mines from drones and calling in strikes to restrict movement before glide bombs target defensive positions.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/05/23/russias-triple-chokehold-tactic-driving-ukraine-back/ (£££)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,654

    Here's my guess and I suppose it's nothing more than that:

    We know Sir Keir had made a promise to Esther Rantzen. Did he make a promise to one of his friends over Chagos?

    Impressive that he managed to get James Cleverley to kick off the negotiations.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,181

    Leon said:

    The Chagos deal is genuinely appalling. Even the Economist despairs of the naivety and foolishness

    But just as importantly it can be used, day after day, to break Starmer. To expose him as a two tier hypocrite, a quisling, a grifter, and an imbecile

    Alongside much else, it will undo him

    Do you really think people care about a place they've only vaguely heard of? This won't register on the political preference to vote decision tree - people are voting for reasons slightly closer to home.
    To be fair, lots of people got very worked up about the Falklands.
    Sure! British people got invaded! Where are the British people in the Chagos Islands?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,107
    edited 10:15AM
    Pulpstar said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    The Chagos deal is genuinely appalling. Even the Economist despairs of the naivety and foolishness

    But just as importantly it can be used, day after day, to break Starmer. To expose him as a two tier hypocrite, a quisling, a grifter, and an imbecile

    Alongside much else, it will undo him

    Do you really think people care about a place they've only vaguely heard of?...
    Do I think people care about a place they've only vaguely heard of?

    No

    Do I think people care about £165mill for yrs 1-3 plus £120mill for yrs 4-13 plus £120mill+inflation for yrs 14-99 plus ANOTHER £45mill for yrs 1-25 plus £40mill now.

    Yes.

    I'd love to know how an index linked 99 years * 100 odd million only works out to 3.4 billion, extraordinarily heard it was the same long term calculation used for pensions !

    Real book cooking going on tbh.
    £100m a year for 10,000 years deflated at 3% pa is £3.3 billion.
    It will be a NPV calculation.

    EDIT Index linked - so assume inflation of 3% pa and deflate at 6% pa to include a 3% risk premium.

    It's easy when you know how :smile:
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,068

    Reading Katie Lam’s bio, she went to Trinity Hall, Cambridge then to Goldman Sachs which is what a lot of awesome people do, isn’t that right Robert?

    However based on current polling she’s going to lose her seat at the next election to Reform

    She sounds suspiciously like the metropolitan elite
    Absolutely not, she read Classics at university which what the working class love.
    Didn't nick Griffin go to Cambridge? :innocent:
    He went to a JCL college.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,324
    isam said:

    Hattie putting the boot in

    ELECTORAL DYSFUNCTION: @HarrietHarman says PM’s claim he’s u-turning on winter fuel because he has the money to is “not credible” & rather he did it because the policy was so unpopular, with the local elections drubbing the flash point.

    https://x.com/bethrigby/status/1925831246967447765?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    He certainly doesn't have the money to do this, or anything else. In current account the government possesses minus £150 billion, and on the balance sheet possesses roughly minus £2.3 trillion.

    Like so many less well off households, they possess nothing whatsoever.
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