Doing unto Others – politicalbetting.com

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

Except that scientists have looked at all this, and found that it is literally true. Popular music is getting cruder, less complex, less interesting technically. Lyrics have got coarser, less inventive, and so forth

We can argue the Why but there is no doubt it is happening

Here's an excellent Spectator article on this very theme:

"And this isn’t me talking. This isn’t an old man shouting about Taylor Swift (by the metrics I am discussing, she is actually that rare thing: a good modern pop star), this is the science talking. Musicologists have spent the last decade or more carefully analysing, parsing, and deconstructing the rhythms, lyrics, harmonies, and orchestration of modern popular music, and their conclusion is: WTF is that racket, turn it down.

An article in the Times earlier this month was just the most recent example of this musicological trend. Titled ‘The Ever Shrinking Song, How TikTok is Transforming Music’, the article goes into some depth about the demands of TikTok algorithms, feeding a hunger for ever speedier stimulation, which in turn is making songs notably shorter and simpler, edging them closer to jingles and ad melodies, or the simplistic tunes emitted by annoying toys. Here’s one paragraph:

"The result of all this analysis is the changing shape and structure of songs themselves. Popular music is increasingly tailored to short social media attention spans. Many of the most popular songs on apps such as TikTok start with choruses or short introductions, while devices such as the middle eight and bridge – such as when the Beatles sing ‘Life is very short …’ in ‘We Can Work it Out’ – are waning.""

And much more thereto

"Speaking of Bob Dylan – a lyricist so gifted he was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature – let us look at the decay of lyrics, as this has also been carefully studied. One such analysis (in 2018) concluded that ‘the complexity of lyrics is declining,’ it also compared words used in 220 chart-topping songs to expected reading levels in US schoolchildren, and decided that most modern songs seem, lyrically, ‘aimed at kids aged 8 or 9’.

"What’s more, these lyrics are getting evermore negative, several studies – e.g. Quantitative Sentiment Analysis of Lyrics in Popular Music (from the Journal of Popular Music Studies) ­– have shown that whereas pop music once commonly expressed joy, love, energy, freedom, and happy sexuality, now themes of anger, violence, hatred, greed and despair are much more prevalent."

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-official-modern-music-is-bad/

I don't think that article was writtne by a "scientist", I think it was written by an old man of a very comparable age to yourself.

And even then, as the article notes, Taylor isn't one who has that simplicity. She is a lyricist and a story-teller in her works, like Dylan and others mentioned.

rcs1000 said:

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

It's an interesting question, and my gut is that Trump will be remembered more, in the same way that Kennedy, Churchill or Hitler or Roosevelt is remembered.

On the other hand, more people can probably name the top bands of the 1960s than -say- Lyndon Johnson.

There are therefore two questions:

- Is Taylor Swift as big a cultural phenomenon as bands like the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan?
- Will Trump be as remembered as Kennedy or will he be more like a Nixon?

I think the answer is that Taylor Swift probably isn't as big a phenomenon, but I'd also guess that 50 year olds in 1968 probably didn't think the Rolling Stones would be that big. So, there's definitely cognitive biases playing a role.

And I think that Trump, for good or ill, is going to be well remembered. Not to the level of a Kennedy (who did manage to get himself assasinated), but certainly more than a Bush or Ford.

PoodleInASlipstream said:

Omnium said:

Malmesbury said:

Battleships died because they could put (on average) about 2% of shells fired on an opponent. At a range of 10 miles.

Aircraft carriers could get a far higher percentage of hits at 250 miles. From the top. Where battleship armour was thin. Or below the waterline where there was none.

An attempt to design a battleship with 12” deck armour was abandoned when it became clear that it would only float upside down.

So apart from the guns and armour being useless….

We all agree they became obsolete. However they were rarely (actually never?) able to show what they could do.

Probably for the best.

Battleships were obsoleted because the threats to them, namely aircraft dropping bombs and torpedoes, advanced much faster than the technology required to counter those threats.

There's a reasonable argument to be made in favour of a updated Battleship concept. Missiles can be jammed, decoyed and shot down. There's not much you can do against a dozen 16" shells moving at twice the speed of sound. Guided shells and modern sensors should ensure any warship getting within about 30 miles of the Battleship would regret it.

Lots of space an a 50,000 ton hull for defensive missiles, too. A couple of hundred VLS cells would be quite useful.

But it would cost a fortune, so nobody will build one when they could have half a dozen frigates for the same money.

rcs1000 said:

As an aside, throughout history, 60 year old men think what they listened to in their 20s was peak music.

That's not an opinion: there's cold, hard polling data that backs that up.

Richard_Tyndall said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically

The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.

About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.

Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1

Foxy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

It has been scientifically proven that the best music TV and film was when you were aged about 16 years old, however old you are.

https://bsky.app/profile/rickchasey.bsky.social/post/3ll2btujer22a

Richard_Tyndall said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically

The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.

About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.

Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1

rcs1000 said:

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

It's an interesting question, and my gut is that Trump will be remembered more, in the same way that Kennedy, Churchill or Hitler or Roosevelt is remembered.

On the other hand, more people can probably name the top bands of the 1960s than -say- Lyndon Johnson.

There are therefore two questions:

- Is Taylor Swift as big a cultural phenomenon as bands like the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan?
- Will Trump be as remembered as Kennedy or will he be more like a Nixon?

I think the answer is that Taylor Swift probably isn't as big a phenomenon, but I'd also guess that 50 year olds in 1968 probably didn't think the Rolling Stones would be that big. So, there's definitely cognitive biases playing a role.

And I think that Trump, for good or ill, is going to be well remembered. Not to the level of a Kennedy (who did manage to get himself assasinated), but certainly more than a Bush or Ford.

williamglenn said:

rcs1000 said:

As an aside, throughout history, 60 year old men think what they listened to in their 20s was peak music.

That's not an opinion: there's cold, hard polling data that backs that up.

History began with the founding of Gallup...

rcs1000 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically

The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.

About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.

Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1

However there's also a massive fragmentation of the music market. Between the 1960s and 1990s, you needed to buy actual physical media. Shops would only carry a relatively small number of singles.

Everyone bought the same songs.

The number one single was often bought by more than 5% of people in the 15 to 25 range.

Now, everything is digital, and there is huge fragmentation. The top songs are now listened to by far fewer people.

rcs1000 said:

As an aside, throughout history, 60 year old men think what they listened to in their 20s was peak music.

That's not an opinion: there's cold, hard polling data that backs that up.

Cookie said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:

"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"

Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"

And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"

You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else.
And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.

It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.

I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts:
1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful.
2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.

Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.

rcs1000 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically

The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.

About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.

Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1

However there's also a massive fragmentation of the music market. Between the 1960s and 1990s, you needed to buy actual physical media. Shops would only carry a relatively small number of singles.

Everyone bought the same songs.

The number one single was often bought by more than 5% of people in the 15 to 25 range.

Now, everything is digital, and there is huge fragmentation. The top songs are now listened to by far fewer people.

BartholomewRoberts said:

Cookie said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:

"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"

Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"

And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"

You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else.
And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.

It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.

I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts:
1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful.
2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.

Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.

Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.

Cookie said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Cookie said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:

"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"

Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"

And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"

You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else.
And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.

It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.

I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts:
1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful.
2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.

Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.

Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.

It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely?
I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting

BartholomewRoberts said:

Cookie said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:

"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"

Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"

And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"

You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else.
And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.

It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.

I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts:
1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful.
2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.

Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.

Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.

Fairliered said:

I hadn’t realised that @Cyclefree had been so unwell. I hope you recover soon.

williamglenn said:

Pagan2 said:

williamglenn said:

rcs1000 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically

The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.

About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.

Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1

However there's also a massive fragmentation of the music market. Between the 1960s and 1990s, you needed to buy actual physical media. Shops would only carry a relatively small number of singles.

Everyone bought the same songs.

The number one single was often bought by more than 5% of people in the 15 to 25 range.

Now, everything is digital, and there is huge fragmentation. The top songs are now listened to by far fewer people.

The previous structure of the market also meant that there was more of a quality filter. You needed to impress an A&R man before you could have a chance to reach a mass audience but now it's much easier to reach an audience without ever really making it big.

It wasn't a quality filter though it was a whats middle of the road that we can persuade a sizable number to buy filter

Not necessarily. The same model also applied to indie labels like 4AD.

williamglenn said:

Cookie said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Cookie said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:

"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"

Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"

And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"

You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else.
And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.

It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.

I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts:
1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful.
2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.

Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.

Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.

It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely?
I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting

You could pick almost anything from Kate Bush. How about the topic of nuclear war experienced from the perspective of an unborn foetus?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzlofSthVwc

TimS said:

Mexicanpete said:

TimS said:

Arrived in Newport, prosperous transport hub of the Welsh economic dragon (source: PB)

Are you in a parallel universe?

I’m in the throbbing heart of the Western economic miracle. Directly opposite me is the vast modernist tower that forms the global headquarters of Admiral Insurance. A name more noteworthy than Donald Trump and Taylor Swift put together. An organisation that I have, I’m afraid, cost rather a lot of money in the last 2 years thanks to a theft and a prang.

I’m about to be whisked by car to Monmouth, which is to Newport what say Greenwich Connecticut is to Manhattan. Before heading tomorrow to the bustling conurbation of Hereford for a reunion at the cathedral school.

Leon said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically

The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.

About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.

Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1

Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it

This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall

Popular music peaked 1965-2000

But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980

Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative

Nigelb said:

Cookie said:

rcs1000 said:

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

It's an interesting question, and my gut is that Trump will be remembered more, in the same way that Kennedy, Churchill or Hitler or Roosevelt is remembered.

On the other hand, more people can probably name the top bands of the 1960s than -say- Lyndon Johnson.

There are therefore two questions:

- Is Taylor Swift as big a cultural phenomenon as bands like the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan?
- Will Trump be as remembered as Kennedy or will he be more like a Nixon?

I think the answer is that Taylor Swift probably isn't as big a phenomenon, but I'd also guess that 50 year olds in 1968 probably didn't think the Rolling Stones would be that big. So, there's definitely cognitive biases playing a role.

And I think that Trump, for good or ill, is going to be well remembered. Not to the level of a Kennedy (who did manage to get himself assasinated), but certainly more than a Bush or Ford.

All good points, which I will add to by providing a thought experiment: how many characters from news and hiw many from popular culture from 100 years ago can you bring to mind? .

Elgar, Holst and Vaughan Williams all composed music still popular today.
The BBC first broadcast The Proms.

Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Woolf, Sassoon, Conrad, Lawrence, Frost, Eliot, Pound, A.A Milne, Agatha Christie ....
The last Sherlock Holmes stories were published.

That's scratching the surface.

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically

The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.

About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.

Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1

Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it

This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall

Popular music peaked 1965-2000

But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980

Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative

The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.

Why the fuck not?

Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.

Pagan2 said:

Nigelb said:

Cookie said:

rcs1000 said:

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

It's an interesting question, and my gut is that Trump will be remembered more, in the same way that Kennedy, Churchill or Hitler or Roosevelt is remembered.

On the other hand, more people can probably name the top bands of the 1960s than -say- Lyndon Johnson.

There are therefore two questions:

- Is Taylor Swift as big a cultural phenomenon as bands like the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan?
- Will Trump be as remembered as Kennedy or will he be more like a Nixon?

I think the answer is that Taylor Swift probably isn't as big a phenomenon, but I'd also guess that 50 year olds in 1968 probably didn't think the Rolling Stones would be that big. So, there's definitely cognitive biases playing a role.

And I think that Trump, for good or ill, is going to be well remembered. Not to the level of a Kennedy (who did manage to get himself assasinated), but certainly more than a Bush or Ford.

All good points, which I will add to by providing a thought experiment: how many characters from news and hiw many from popular culture from 100 years ago can you bring to mind? .

Elgar, Holst and Vaughan Williams all composed music still popular today.
The BBC first broadcast The Proms.

Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Woolf, Sassoon, Conrad, Lawrence, Frost, Eliot, Pound, A.A Milne, Agatha Christie ....
The last Sherlock Holmes stories were published.

That's scratching the surface.

Which proves his point however not the point you think you are proving. There were thousands of writers and composers and bands in every age. Generally people now know a handful of those thousands the rest are forgotten and who the hell is vaughan williams never heard of him or come to that sassoon I thought it was a hair care product so at least those two arent quite as well known as you think

Cookie said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Foxy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

It has been scientifically proven that the best music TV and film was when you were aged about 16 years old, however old you are.

https://bsky.app/profile/rickchasey.bsky.social/post/3ll2btujer22a

As someone born in 1982 its just a coincidence that I was 16 when such legendary music as Vindaloo, Viva Forever and When the Lights Go Out came out. Anyone who disagrees that's the best music can lick my Chocolate Salty Balls.

I wouldn't say 1998 was the best year for music. Iris is one of the few songs from that year that's still on my playlist today.

The late 90s were surprisingly shit for pop. There was a series of top of the pops from the 90s on BBC4 a few years ago. It was notable and a bit sad how tge quality tailed off. 90-95 were pretty strong,and then a steep decline thereafter. This wasn't just because of my age - I was 15 in 1990 - because once you get into the noughties things pick up a bit again.

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Cookie said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:

"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"

Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"

And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"

You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else.
And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.

It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.

I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts:
1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful.
2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.

Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.

Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.

You clearly haven't listened to "When an old cricketer leaves the crease" by Roy Harper

When the day is done and the ball
Has spun in the umpires pocket away
And all remains in the groundsman's pains for
The rest of time and a day

Pagan2 said:

williamglenn said:

Cookie said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Cookie said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:

"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"

Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"

And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"

You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else.
And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.

It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.

I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts:
1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful.
2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.

Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.

Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.

It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely?
I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting

You could pick almost anything from Kate Bush. How about the topic of nuclear war experienced from the perspective of an unborn foetus?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzlofSthVwc

Kate bush was best listened to with the sound off

MattW said:

stodge said:

Nigelb said:

An interesting look at Reform's fiscal policies.
Either they are just making shit up which they have no intention of implementing, or they are a massive danger to the UK economy.

Taking Reform UK seriously
And learning just how deep the fiscal hole goes
https://notes.archie-hall.com/p/taking-reform-uk-seriously

Farage was interviewed about what a Reform majority in the Senedd would mean. He wittered on about "woke" and ending the 20mph speed limit and claimed to be all about reducing the costs for Welsh people but when confronted on the things what actually cost money and were provided by the Welsh Government such as the concessionary travel provided by Transport for Wales, Farage was all for it.

I didn't hear him say much about Social Care spending (about half of the Welsh Government's Budget) or Housing (27%) but he's happy to waste time and effort on tiny amounts of peripheral spending.

I've not heard Reform's ideas on social care and as they will (apparently) have to deal with this poisoned chalice in 2028-29, it might be interesting to hear their ideas (if they have any).

Reform 2024 Manifesto. Royal Commission, but no costed policies. Elsewhere a proposal of 3 years tax free for NHS are care workers, if I read it correctly:

CRITICAL REFORMS NEEDED IN THE FIRST 100 DAYS: Commence Royal Commission of Inquiry into Social Care System A national plan is critical for a sustainable social care system. The sector needs flexibility, tax incentives, VAT breaks and less waste. Simplify social care through a single funding stream, instead of the split between NHS and Local Authorities. More funding will be needed when a national plan is agreed.

Page 20 of the manifesto:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/reformuk/pages/253/attachments/original/1718625371/Reform_UK_Our_Contract_with_You.pdf?1718625371

nico67 said:

OMG that’s sacrilegious! I adore Kate Bush , a once in a generation talent .

nico67 said:

Pagan2 said:

williamglenn said:

Cookie said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Cookie said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:

"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"

Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"

And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"

You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else.
And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.

It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.

I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts:
1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful.
2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.

Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.

Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.

It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely?
I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting

You could pick almost anything from Kate Bush. How about the topic of nuclear war experienced from the perspective of an unborn foetus?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzlofSthVwc

Kate bush was best listened to with the sound off

OMG that’s sacrilegious! I adore Kate Bush , a once in a generation talent .

Casino_Royale said:

Cookie said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Foxy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

It has been scientifically proven that the best music TV and film was when you were aged about 16 years old, however old you are.

https://bsky.app/profile/rickchasey.bsky.social/post/3ll2btujer22a

As someone born in 1982 its just a coincidence that I was 16 when such legendary music as Vindaloo, Viva Forever and When the Lights Go Out came out. Anyone who disagrees that's the best music can lick my Chocolate Salty Balls.

I wouldn't say 1998 was the best year for music. Iris is one of the few songs from that year that's still on my playlist today.

The late 90s were surprisingly shit for pop. There was a series of top of the pops from the 90s on BBC4 a few years ago. It was notable and a bit sad how tge quality tailed off. 90-95 were pretty strong,and then a steep decline thereafter. This wasn't just because of my age - I was 15 in 1990 - because once you get into the noughties things pick up a bit again.

Britpop was awesome up until 1998. 1991 to 1996 being the peak.

You then got the dance acts moving in from 1998 through to 2002, which I liked, but if you throw in Bewitched and the Spice Girls on top in 1998 or 1999, it wasn't quite the same.

Cookie said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Cookie said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:

"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"

Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"

And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"

You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else.
And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.

It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.

I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts:
1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful.
2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.

Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.

Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.

It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely?
I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting

Casino_Royale said:

Cookie said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically

The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.

About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.

Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1

Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it

This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall

Popular music peaked 1965-2000

But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980

Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative

The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.

Why the fuck not?

Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.

I can offer two reasons:
1) Young people don't court that way. They do it online and are slightly uncomfortable with the sort of IRL flirting which give clubs some of their frisson.
2) Pubs are open later. Think back to the 90s: you went to a club whether you wanted to or not because the pubs shut at 11. Interestingly, Edinburgh's clubs were actually a bit shit for a city of its size because the pubs stayed open longer and provided less impetus to move on.

No doubt there are others.

Agree, sadly, on one- and they're doing it wrong because there's less sex and relationships all round.

Two, not for me: I went to clubs because I wanted to throw some shapes.

Cookie said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries.

Oh come on. Taylor Swift is not a great artist. She is very successful and good at what she does. But that was true of Dave Dee Dozy Beaky Mick and Titch and Duran Duran.

Donald Trump will be remembered. Probably not as a great president, but as a very newsworthy one.

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

I sometimes wonder what it would be like if everyone on PB was meeting up in person in a pub instead of online.

Casino_Royale said:

Young people should be going out, getting hammered, dancing like crazy and then copping off with people they then laugh about the next day. And doing it all over again the next week.

That's what being young is FOR.

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically

The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.

About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.

Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1

Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it

This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall

Popular music peaked 1965-2000

But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980

Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative

The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.

Why the fuck not?

Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.

Casino_Royale said:

Young people should be going out, getting hammered, dancing like crazy and then copping off with people they then laugh about the next day. And doing it all over again the next week.

That's what being young is FOR.

Cookie said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Foxy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

It has been scientifically proven that the best music TV and film was when you were aged about 16 years old, however old you are.

https://bsky.app/profile/rickchasey.bsky.social/post/3ll2btujer22a

As someone born in 1982 its just a coincidence that I was 16 when such legendary music as Vindaloo, Viva Forever and When the Lights Go Out came out. Anyone who disagrees that's the best music can lick my Chocolate Salty Balls.

I wouldn't say 1998 was the best year for music. Iris is one of the few songs from that year that's still on my playlist today.

The late 90s were surprisingly shit for pop. There was a series of top of the pops from the 90s on BBC4 a few years ago. It was notable and a bit sad how tge quality tailed off. 90-95 were pretty strong,and then a steep decline thereafter. This wasn't just because of my age - I was 15 in 1990 - because once you get into the noughties things pick up a bit again.

Pagan2 said:

Penddu2 said:

When comparing songs of yesteryear with the current batch, you have to remember that all of the good notes have been taken.

Mathematically there are only so many combinations of 8 notes that can be played before some young music industry exective starts shouting 'plagiarism'...

Indeed men with out hats were sued over 8 notes for plagiarism only about 40k ways to arrange 8 notes over an 8 note sequence

Leon said:

Concanvasser said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Not sure if Taylor will be remembered but I believe Bach was largely forgotten, certainly not publicly performed, for 80 odd years after his death.

It took Mendelssohn to rediscover him. Makes you wonder who or what genius we (or are children) will rediscover from the 1940s and 50s who is utterly ignored

Happens in poetry too. Gerard Manley Hopkins nearly disappeared entirely, without even being noticed. Rescued by Robert Bridges? Now accepted as one of the greatest ever English poets

Something similar happened to Donne IIRC - over a longer timespan - and ditto

Casino_Royale said:

Lots of doctors, scientists, entrepreneurs, innovators and engineers: