Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
Except that scientists have looked at all this, and found that it is literally true. Popular music is getting cruder, less complex, less interesting technically. Lyrics have got coarser, less inventive, and so forth
We can argue the Why but there is no doubt it is happening
Here's an excellent Spectator article on this very theme:
"And this isn’t me talking. This isn’t an old man shouting about Taylor Swift (by the metrics I am discussing, she is actually that rare thing: a good modern pop star), this is the science talking. Musicologists have spent the last decade or more carefully analysing, parsing, and deconstructing the rhythms, lyrics, harmonies, and orchestration of modern popular music, and their conclusion is: WTF is that racket, turn it down.
An article in the Times earlier this month was just the most recent example of this musicological trend. Titled ‘The Ever Shrinking Song, How TikTok is Transforming Music’, the article goes into some depth about the demands of TikTok algorithms, feeding a hunger for ever speedier stimulation, which in turn is making songs notably shorter and simpler, edging them closer to jingles and ad melodies, or the simplistic tunes emitted by annoying toys. Here’s one paragraph:
"The result of all this analysis is the changing shape and structure of songs themselves. Popular music is increasingly tailored to short social media attention spans. Many of the most popular songs on apps such as TikTok start with choruses or short introductions, while devices such as the middle eight and bridge – such as when the Beatles sing ‘Life is very short …’ in ‘We Can Work it Out’ – are waning.""
And much more thereto
"Speaking of Bob Dylan – a lyricist so gifted he was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature – let us look at the decay of lyrics, as this has also been carefully studied. One such analysis (in 2018) concluded that ‘the complexity of lyrics is declining,’ it also compared words used in 220 chart-topping songs to expected reading levels in US schoolchildren, and decided that most modern songs seem, lyrically, ‘aimed at kids aged 8 or 9’.
"What’s more, these lyrics are getting evermore negative, several studies – e.g. Quantitative Sentiment Analysis of Lyrics in Popular Music (from the Journal of Popular Music Studies) – have shown that whereas pop music once commonly expressed joy, love, energy, freedom, and happy sexuality, now themes of anger, violence, hatred, greed and despair are much more prevalent."
I don't think that article was writtne by a "scientist", I think it was written by an old man of a very comparable age to yourself.
And even then, as the article notes, Taylor isn't one who has that simplicity. She is a lyricist and a story-teller in her works, like Dylan and others mentioned.
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
It has been scientifically proven that the best music TV and film was when you were aged about 16 years old, however old you are.
An interesting look at Reform's fiscal policies. Either they are just making shit up which they have no intention of implementing, or they are a massive danger to the UK economy.
Not sure if Taylor will be remembered but I believe Bach was largely forgotten, certainly not publicly performed, for 80 odd years after his death.
It took Mendelssohn to rediscover him. Makes you wonder who or what genius we (or are children) will rediscover from the 1940s and 50s who is utterly ignored
Happens in poetry too. Gerard Manley Hopkins nearly disappeared entirely, without even being noticed. Rescued by Robert Bridges? Now accepted as one of the greatest ever English poets
Something similar happened to Donne IIRC - over a longer timespan - and ditto
Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome
People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it
But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine
Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?
Artists often outlast politicians.
Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways
Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right
Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?
You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.
It's an interesting question, and my gut is that Trump will be remembered more, in the same way that Kennedy, Churchill or Hitler or Roosevelt is remembered.
On the other hand, more people can probably name the top bands of the 1960s than -say- Lyndon Johnson.
There are therefore two questions:
- Is Taylor Swift as big a cultural phenomenon as bands like the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan? - Will Trump be as remembered as Kennedy or will he be more like a Nixon?
I think the answer is that Taylor Swift probably isn't as big a phenomenon, but I'd also guess that 50 year olds in 1968 probably didn't think the Rolling Stones would be that big. So, there's definitely cognitive biases playing a role.
And I think that Trump, for good or ill, is going to be well remembered. Not to the level of a Kennedy (who did manage to get himself assasinated), but certainly more than a Bush or Ford.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Battleships died because they could put (on average) about 2% of shells fired on an opponent. At a range of 10 miles.
Aircraft carriers could get a far higher percentage of hits at 250 miles. From the top. Where battleship armour was thin. Or below the waterline where there was none.
An attempt to design a battleship with 12” deck armour was abandoned when it became clear that it would only float upside down.
So apart from the guns and armour being useless….
We all agree they became obsolete. However they were rarely (actually never?) able to show what they could do.
Probably for the best.
Battleships were obsoleted because the threats to them, namely aircraft dropping bombs and torpedoes, advanced much faster than the technology required to counter those threats.
There's a reasonable argument to be made in favour of a updated Battleship concept. Missiles can be jammed, decoyed and shot down. There's not much you can do against a dozen 16" shells moving at twice the speed of sound. Guided shells and modern sensors should ensure any warship getting within about 30 miles of the Battleship would regret it.
Lots of space an a 50,000 ton hull for defensive missiles, too. A couple of hundred VLS cells would be quite useful.
But it would cost a fortune, so nobody will build one when they could have half a dozen frigates for the same money.
Missiles shooting down heavy shells have been demonstrated - first done in the 1960s. Even if you don’t destroy it, it takes only a small deflection to cause a shell to tumble of course.
The problem you have is getting you battleship within 50 miles of anything.
A large amount of ordinance is a firework display waiting to happen. See the Russian Black Sea fleet.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
There's no way in hell that any modern day recording artist will be routinely listened to in 50 years time. There's just too much new stuff. New technology, new ways of putting out music, AI, genres of recreation, games, VR....the list will just go on and on. My lads probably can't even name The Beatles, let alone listen to them, and my middle lad is currently away forging a decent career in the music video/ festival recording business! Anyone can make half decent recordings now without even being able to play a note or have a decent voice. AI killed the Spotify star....
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
It has been scientifically proven that the best music TV and film was when you were aged about 16 years old, however old you are.
As someone born in 1982 its just a coincidence that I was 16 when such legendary music as Vindaloo, Viva Forever and When the Lights Go Out came out. Anyone who disagrees that's the best music can lick my Chocolate Salty Balls.
I wouldn't say 1998 was the best year for music. Iris is one of the few songs from that year that's still on my playlist today.
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
However there's also a massive fragmentation of the music market. Between the 1960s and 1990s, you needed to buy actual physical media. Shops would only carry a relatively small number of singles.
Everyone bought the same songs.
The number one single was often bought by more than 5% of people in the 15 to 25 range.
Now, everything is digital, and there is huge fragmentation. The top songs are now listened to by far fewer people.
Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome
People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it
But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine
Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?
Artists often outlast politicians.
Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways
Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right
Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?
You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.
It's an interesting question, and my gut is that Trump will be remembered more, in the same way that Kennedy, Churchill or Hitler or Roosevelt is remembered.
On the other hand, more people can probably name the top bands of the 1960s than -say- Lyndon Johnson.
There are therefore two questions:
- Is Taylor Swift as big a cultural phenomenon as bands like the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan? - Will Trump be as remembered as Kennedy or will he be more like a Nixon?
I think the answer is that Taylor Swift probably isn't as big a phenomenon, but I'd also guess that 50 year olds in 1968 probably didn't think the Rolling Stones would be that big. So, there's definitely cognitive biases playing a role.
And I think that Trump, for good or ill, is going to be well remembered. Not to the level of a Kennedy (who did manage to get himself assasinated), but certainly more than a Bush or Ford.
All good points, which I will add to by providing a thought experiment: how many characters from news and hiw many from popular culture from 100 years ago can you bring to mind? How about 150, 200 years ago? If you're anything like me news will outweigh popular culture about 5 to 1.
Thought: Reform are just two gifted politicians from government
The polls are pretty clear now. The people have had enough of Lab and Con. They are absolutely hacked off with ALL immigration - a lot of them want remigration
The only party positioned to benefit from this is Reform. BUT Reform have one massive problem - they are entirely reliant on Farage. With him gone - and he’s not a young man - they’d be screwed
However if they can find just a couple of good, younger politicians - a Sturgeon to Farage’s Salmond - then they will be well set
My mind turns to Jenrick. He’s increasingly capable. He’s excellent on social media. He’s sharp and punchy and he agrees with Reform on the culture war issues
In return he must be tempted to defect if Reform look like winning. He’d go straight to the top (under Farage) and be the likely next prime minister if/when Farage goes
Then they need one more. A spare for the heir
Sorted
Zia Yusuf fancies it I reckon, but would Reform get as many votes with a muslim leader, even one who is on their side? It would be an interesting test of racism/"islamophobia"
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
However there's also a massive fragmentation of the music market. Between the 1960s and 1990s, you needed to buy actual physical media. Shops would only carry a relatively small number of singles.
Everyone bought the same songs.
The number one single was often bought by more than 5% of people in the 15 to 25 range.
Now, everything is digital, and there is huge fragmentation. The top songs are now listened to by far fewer people.
The previous structure of the market also meant that there was more of a quality filter. You needed to impress an A&R man before you could have a chance to reach a mass audience but now it's much easier to reach an audience without ever really making it big.
President Donald Trump’s agenda has been thrown into chaos after a group of GOP hardliners blocked the bill in a key committee vote on Friday – dealing a major embarrassment to House Republican leaders and Trump himself.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
It has been scientifically proven that the best music TV and film was when you were aged about 16 years old, however old you are.
As someone born in 1982 its just a coincidence that I was 16 when such legendary music as Vindaloo, Viva Forever and When the Lights Go Out came out. Anyone who disagrees that's the best music can lick my Chocolate Salty Balls.
I wouldn't say 1998 was the best year for music. Iris is one of the few songs from that year that's still on my playlist today.
The late 90s were surprisingly shit for pop. There was a series of top of the pops from the 90s on BBC4 a few years ago. It was notable and a bit sad how tge quality tailed off. 90-95 were pretty strong,and then a steep decline thereafter. This wasn't just because of my age - I was 15 in 1990 - because once you get into the noughties things pick up a bit again.
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
There are also different kinds of complexity on modern music, Much of it holds no appeal at all for me, but it's there.
British Light Classical music, people like Eric Coates and Ronald Binge is long overdue a revaluation in my opinion. A very popula genre basically cancelled by the BBC with the replacement of the Light Programme with Radio 2/3.
Some of those computer games that Leon mentions have soundtracks that are really rather good. They (rather than the games themselves) might well still be being played in a generation.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
However there's also a massive fragmentation of the music market. Between the 1960s and 1990s, you needed to buy actual physical media. Shops would only carry a relatively small number of singles.
Everyone bought the same songs.
The number one single was often bought by more than 5% of people in the 15 to 25 range.
Now, everything is digital, and there is huge fragmentation. The top songs are now listened to by far fewer people.
The other thing is that TikTok and Spotify algorithmic playlists often regenerate old tunes as new hits, so youngsters are often listening to music from previous decades. For examples look at the billion streams list on Spotify:
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
However there's also a massive fragmentation of the music market. Between the 1960s and 1990s, you needed to buy actual physical media. Shops would only carry a relatively small number of singles.
Everyone bought the same songs.
The number one single was often bought by more than 5% of people in the 15 to 25 range.
Now, everything is digital, and there is huge fragmentation. The top songs are now listened to by far fewer people.
The previous structure of the market also meant that there was more of a quality filter. You needed to impress an A&R man before you could have a chance to reach a mass audience but now it's much easier to reach an audience without ever really making it big.
It wasn't a quality filter though it was a whats middle of the road that we can persuade a sizable number to buy filter
When comparing songs of yesteryear with the current batch, you have to remember that all of the good notes have been taken.
Mathematically there are only so many combinations of 8 notes that can be played before some young music industry exective starts shouting 'plagiarism'...
When comparing songs of yesteryear with the current batch, you have to remember that all of the good notes have been taken.
Mathematically there are only so many combinations of 8 notes that can be played before some young music industry exective starts shouting 'plagiarism'...
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely? I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
However there's also a massive fragmentation of the music market. Between the 1960s and 1990s, you needed to buy actual physical media. Shops would only carry a relatively small number of singles.
Everyone bought the same songs.
The number one single was often bought by more than 5% of people in the 15 to 25 range.
Now, everything is digital, and there is huge fragmentation. The top songs are now listened to by far fewer people.
The previous structure of the market also meant that there was more of a quality filter. You needed to impress an A&R man before you could have a chance to reach a mass audience but now it's much easier to reach an audience without ever really making it big.
It wasn't a quality filter though it was a whats middle of the road that we can persuade a sizable number to buy filter
Not necessarily. The same model also applied to indie labels like 4AD.
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely? I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting
I have the book that inspired that song, " A Book of Dreams" by Willheim Reich I think... had it years and haven't read it, like so many other books in my house. Bush played the son and Donald Sutherland the father in the music video
An interesting look at Reform's fiscal policies. Either they are just making shit up which they have no intention of implementing, or they are a massive danger to the UK economy.
Farage was interviewed about what a Reform majority in the Senedd would mean. He wittered on about "woke" and ending the 20mph speed limit and claimed to be all about reducing the costs for Welsh people but when confronted on the things what actually cost money and were provided by the Welsh Government such as the concessionary travel provided by Transport for Wales, Farage was all for it.
I didn't hear him say much about Social Care spending (about half of the Welsh Government's Budget) or Housing (27%) but he's happy to waste time and effort on tiny amounts of peripheral spending.
I've not heard Reform's ideas on social care and as they will (apparently) have to deal with this poisoned chalice in 2028-29, it might be interesting to hear their ideas (if they have any).
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
You clearly haven't listened to "When an old cricketer leaves the crease" by Roy Harper
When the day is done and the ball Has spun in the umpires pocket away And all remains in the groundsman's pains for The rest of time and a day
When comparing songs of yesteryear with the current batch, you have to remember that all of the good notes have been taken.
Mathematically there are only so many combinations of 8 notes that can be played before some young music industry exective starts shouting 'plagiarism'...
Indeed men with out hats were sued over 8 notes for plagiarism only about 40k ways to arrange 8 notes over an 8 note sequence
When comparing songs of yesteryear with the current batch, you have to remember that all of the good notes have been taken.
Mathematically there are only so many combinations of 8 notes that can be played before some young music industry exective starts shouting 'plagiarism'...
You mean you can't just add in a single note to a base line and suddenly claim Ice Ice Baby has a completely different sound to Under Pressure?
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
However there's also a massive fragmentation of the music market. Between the 1960s and 1990s, you needed to buy actual physical media. Shops would only carry a relatively small number of singles.
Everyone bought the same songs.
The number one single was often bought by more than 5% of people in the 15 to 25 range.
Now, everything is digital, and there is huge fragmentation. The top songs are now listened to by far fewer people.
The previous structure of the market also meant that there was more of a quality filter. You needed to impress an A&R man before you could have a chance to reach a mass audience but now it's much easier to reach an audience without ever really making it big.
It wasn't a quality filter though it was a whats middle of the road that we can persuade a sizable number to buy filter
Not necessarily. The same model also applied to indie labels like 4AD.
Because its the same model whereas now bands can self publish please don't be thick
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely? I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting
You could pick almost anything from Kate Bush. How about the topic of nuclear war experienced from the perspective of an unborn foetus?
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely? I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting
You could pick almost anything from Kate Bush. How about the topic of nuclear war experienced from the perspective of an unborn foetus?
Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome
People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it
But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine
Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?
Artists often outlast politicians.
Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways
Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right
Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?
You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.
It's an interesting question, and my gut is that Trump will be remembered more, in the same way that Kennedy, Churchill or Hitler or Roosevelt is remembered.
On the other hand, more people can probably name the top bands of the 1960s than -say- Lyndon Johnson.
There are therefore two questions:
- Is Taylor Swift as big a cultural phenomenon as bands like the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan? - Will Trump be as remembered as Kennedy or will he be more like a Nixon?
I think the answer is that Taylor Swift probably isn't as big a phenomenon, but I'd also guess that 50 year olds in 1968 probably didn't think the Rolling Stones would be that big. So, there's definitely cognitive biases playing a role.
And I think that Trump, for good or ill, is going to be well remembered. Not to the level of a Kennedy (who did manage to get himself assasinated), but certainly more than a Bush or Ford.
All good points, which I will add to by providing a thought experiment: how many characters from news and hiw many from popular culture from 100 years ago can you bring to mind? .
Elgar, Holst and Vaughan Williams all composed music still popular today. The BBC first broadcast The Proms.
Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Woolf, Sassoon, Conrad, Lawrence, Frost, Eliot, Pound, A.A Milne, Agatha Christie .... The last Sherlock Holmes stories were published.
Arrived in Newport, prosperous transport hub of the Welsh economic dragon (source: PB)
Are you in a parallel universe?
I’m in the throbbing heart of the Western economic miracle. Directly opposite me is the vast modernist tower that forms the global headquarters of Admiral Insurance. A name more noteworthy than Donald Trump and Taylor Swift put together. An organisation that I have, I’m afraid, cost rather a lot of money in the last 2 years thanks to a theft and a prang.
I’m about to be whisked by car to Monmouth, which is to Newport what say Greenwich Connecticut is to Manhattan. Before heading tomorrow to the bustling conurbation of Hereford for a reunion at the cathedral school.
Thought: Reform are just two gifted politicians from government
The polls are pretty clear now. The people have had enough of Lab and Con. They are absolutely hacked off with ALL immigration - a lot of them want remigration
The only party positioned to benefit from this is Reform. BUT Reform have one massive problem - they are entirely reliant on Farage. With him gone - and he’s not a young man - they’d be screwed
However if they can find just a couple of good, younger politicians - a Sturgeon to Farage’s Salmond - then they will be well set
My mind turns to Jenrick. He’s increasingly capable. He’s excellent on social media. He’s sharp and punchy and he agrees with Reform on the culture war issues
In return he must be tempted to defect if Reform look like winning. He’d go straight to the top (under Farage) and be the likely next prime minister if/when Farage goes
Then they need one more. A spare for the heir
Sorted
Zia Yusuf fancies it I reckon, but would Reform get as many votes with a muslim leader, even one who is on their side? It would be an interesting test of racism/"islamophobia"
It would be an interesting test of their standard rhetoric on alighting on a few offenders then pivoting it to attacks on all Muslims.
Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome
People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it
But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine
Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?
Artists often outlast politicians.
Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways
Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right
Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?
You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.
It's an interesting question, and my gut is that Trump will be remembered more, in the same way that Kennedy, Churchill or Hitler or Roosevelt is remembered.
On the other hand, more people can probably name the top bands of the 1960s than -say- Lyndon Johnson.
There are therefore two questions:
- Is Taylor Swift as big a cultural phenomenon as bands like the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan? - Will Trump be as remembered as Kennedy or will he be more like a Nixon?
I think the answer is that Taylor Swift probably isn't as big a phenomenon, but I'd also guess that 50 year olds in 1968 probably didn't think the Rolling Stones would be that big. So, there's definitely cognitive biases playing a role.
And I think that Trump, for good or ill, is going to be well remembered. Not to the level of a Kennedy (who did manage to get himself assasinated), but certainly more than a Bush or Ford.
All good points, which I will add to by providing a thought experiment: how many characters from news and hiw many from popular culture from 100 years ago can you bring to mind? .
Elgar, Holst and Vaughan Williams all composed music still popular today. The BBC first broadcast The Proms.
Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Woolf, Sassoon, Conrad, Lawrence, Frost, Eliot, Pound, A.A Milne, Agatha Christie .... The last Sherlock Holmes stories were published.
That's scratching the surface.
Which proves his point however not the point you think you are proving. There were thousands of writers and composers and bands in every age. Generally people now know a handful of those thousands the rest are forgotten and who the hell is vaughan williams never heard of him or come to that sassoon I thought it was a hair care product so at least those two arent quite as well known as you think
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.
Why the fuck not?
Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
You clearly haven't listened to "When an old cricketer leaves the crease" by Roy Harper
When the day is done and the ball Has spun in the umpires pocket away And all remains in the groundsman's pains for The rest of time and a day
Absolute classic. The only song ever containing references to Geoff Boycott and John Snow.
Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome
People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it
But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine
Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?
Artists often outlast politicians.
Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways
Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right
Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?
You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.
It's an interesting question, and my gut is that Trump will be remembered more, in the same way that Kennedy, Churchill or Hitler or Roosevelt is remembered.
On the other hand, more people can probably name the top bands of the 1960s than -say- Lyndon Johnson.
There are therefore two questions:
- Is Taylor Swift as big a cultural phenomenon as bands like the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan? - Will Trump be as remembered as Kennedy or will he be more like a Nixon?
I think the answer is that Taylor Swift probably isn't as big a phenomenon, but I'd also guess that 50 year olds in 1968 probably didn't think the Rolling Stones would be that big. So, there's definitely cognitive biases playing a role.
And I think that Trump, for good or ill, is going to be well remembered. Not to the level of a Kennedy (who did manage to get himself assasinated), but certainly more than a Bush or Ford.
All good points, which I will add to by providing a thought experiment: how many characters from news and hiw many from popular culture from 100 years ago can you bring to mind? .
Elgar, Holst and Vaughan Williams all composed music still popular today. The BBC first broadcast The Proms.
Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Woolf, Sassoon, Conrad, Lawrence, Frost, Eliot, Pound, A.A Milne, Agatha Christie .... The last Sherlock Holmes stories were published.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.
Why the fuck not?
Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.
They didn't have smart phones until recently though
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.
Why the fuck not?
Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.
In my experience....a 33 year old son and 14 year old god daughter they don't listen to music anymore. They hear music in film soundtracks or the background of tiktoks. They just don't sit there with just music playing like we used to in the 70's and 80's
An interesting look at Reform's fiscal policies. Either they are just making shit up which they have no intention of implementing, or they are a massive danger to the UK economy.
Farage was interviewed about what a Reform majority in the Senedd would mean. He wittered on about "woke" and ending the 20mph speed limit and claimed to be all about reducing the costs for Welsh people but when confronted on the things what actually cost money and were provided by the Welsh Government such as the concessionary travel provided by Transport for Wales, Farage was all for it.
I didn't hear him say much about Social Care spending (about half of the Welsh Government's Budget) or Housing (27%) but he's happy to waste time and effort on tiny amounts of peripheral spending.
I've not heard Reform's ideas on social care and as they will (apparently) have to deal with this poisoned chalice in 2028-29, it might be interesting to hear their ideas (if they have any).
Reform 2024 Manifesto. Royal Commission, but no costed policies. Elsewhere a proposal of 3 years tax free for NHS are care workers, if I read it correctly:
CRITICAL REFORMS NEEDED IN THE FIRST 100 DAYS: Commence Royal Commission of Inquiry into Social Care System A national plan is critical for a sustainable social care system. The sector needs flexibility, tax incentives, VAT breaks and less waste. Simplify social care through a single funding stream, instead of the split between NHS and Local Authorities. More funding will be needed when a national plan is agreed.
Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome
People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it
But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine
Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?
Artists often outlast politicians.
Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways
Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right
Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?
You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.
It's an interesting question, and my gut is that Trump will be remembered more, in the same way that Kennedy, Churchill or Hitler or Roosevelt is remembered.
On the other hand, more people can probably name the top bands of the 1960s than -say- Lyndon Johnson.
There are therefore two questions:
- Is Taylor Swift as big a cultural phenomenon as bands like the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan? - Will Trump be as remembered as Kennedy or will he be more like a Nixon?
I think the answer is that Taylor Swift probably isn't as big a phenomenon, but I'd also guess that 50 year olds in 1968 probably didn't think the Rolling Stones would be that big. So, there's definitely cognitive biases playing a role.
And I think that Trump, for good or ill, is going to be well remembered. Not to the level of a Kennedy (who did manage to get himself assasinated), but certainly more than a Bush or Ford.
All good points, which I will add to by providing a thought experiment: how many characters from news and hiw many from popular culture from 100 years ago can you bring to mind? .
Elgar, Holst and Vaughan Williams all composed music still popular today. The BBC first broadcast The Proms.
Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Woolf, Sassoon, Conrad, Lawrence, Frost, Eliot, Pound, A.A Milne, Agatha Christie .... The last Sherlock Holmes stories were published.
That's scratching the surface.
Which proves his point however not the point you think you are proving. There were thousands of writers and composers and bands in every age. Generally people now know a handful of those thousands the rest are forgotten and who the hell is vaughan williams never heard of him or come to that sassoon I thought it was a hair care product so at least those two arent quite as well known as you think
I disagree. Certainly as far 1920s are concerned, you can barely separate today's knowledge of the then popular culture from the "characters in the news".
That you're not intimate with Sassoon is a bit beside the point. You wouldn't say the same of Agatha Christie or Winnie the Pooh.
Here in fact is a point about music, struggling now to think of the last time I went to a pub which had a jukebox....is that just me or did they quietly just disappear
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
It has been scientifically proven that the best music TV and film was when you were aged about 16 years old, however old you are.
As someone born in 1982 its just a coincidence that I was 16 when such legendary music as Vindaloo, Viva Forever and When the Lights Go Out came out. Anyone who disagrees that's the best music can lick my Chocolate Salty Balls.
I wouldn't say 1998 was the best year for music. Iris is one of the few songs from that year that's still on my playlist today.
The late 90s were surprisingly shit for pop. There was a series of top of the pops from the 90s on BBC4 a few years ago. It was notable and a bit sad how tge quality tailed off. 90-95 were pretty strong,and then a steep decline thereafter. This wasn't just because of my age - I was 15 in 1990 - because once you get into the noughties things pick up a bit again.
Britpop was awesome up until 1998. 1991 to 1996 being the peak.
You then got the dance acts moving in from 1998 through to 2002, which I liked, but if you throw in Bewitched and the Spice Girls on top in 1998 or 1999, it wasn't quite the same.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.
Why the fuck not?
Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.
In my experience....a 33 year old son and 14 year old god daughter they don't listen to music anymore. They hear music in film soundtracks or the background of tiktoks. They just don't sit there with just music playing like we used to in the 70's and 80's
My 9 year old daughter loves discovering music on YouTube (she's not allowed TikTok).
She regularly asks me while I'm driving to play a song I've never heard of before, by an artist I'd never heard of before.
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
You clearly haven't listened to "When an old cricketer leaves the crease" by Roy Harper
When the day is done and the ball Has spun in the umpires pocket away And all remains in the groundsman's pains for The rest of time and a day
Well of course Duckworth Lewis method (Neil Hannon of Divine Comedy and Thomas Walsh from Pugwash) did a whole album. A song about the emergence of T20, one about reminiscences of cricket on childhood holidays, one about on old fella sleeping on the boundary, one about the Ball of the Century, one about the nobility of the Night Watchman... But we've still only got about 15 or so songs in the cannon about cricket to God knows however many thousands on the arguably slightly less interesting and important subject of Romantic Love.
Ooh, another one about cricket: "Let's get this over and done with" by Mr. B the Gentleman Rhymer - a song of irritation about the World Cup and how much better cricket is than football. Though Mr. B is actually an invented character by some fella out of Collapsed Lung and in real life prefers football, sadly.
President Trump’s policy of applying “pressure on the victim” of the Ukraine war lay behind the US ambassador’s decision to quit Kyiv after three years in the role, she said on Friday.
Bridget Brink said she brought an end to her 30-year diplomatic career because she could “no longer in good faith carry out the administration’s policy” and issued a call for America to “show leadership in the face of aggression, not weakness or complicity”.
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely? I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting
You could pick almost anything from Kate Bush. How about the topic of nuclear war experienced from the perspective of an unborn foetus?
Today was outrageous — raw, though expected belligerence fm Kremlin. Core question remains: how will Trump recalibrate? Status quo is untenable. He could walk — not easy. Impose peace on Ukraine — unclear he has leverage. Or raise pressure on Putin — the path he least wants.
An interesting look at Reform's fiscal policies. Either they are just making shit up which they have no intention of implementing, or they are a massive danger to the UK economy.
Farage was interviewed about what a Reform majority in the Senedd would mean. He wittered on about "woke" and ending the 20mph speed limit and claimed to be all about reducing the costs for Welsh people but when confronted on the things what actually cost money and were provided by the Welsh Government such as the concessionary travel provided by Transport for Wales, Farage was all for it.
I didn't hear him say much about Social Care spending (about half of the Welsh Government's Budget) or Housing (27%) but he's happy to waste time and effort on tiny amounts of peripheral spending.
I've not heard Reform's ideas on social care and as they will (apparently) have to deal with this poisoned chalice in 2028-29, it might be interesting to hear their ideas (if they have any).
Reform 2024 Manifesto. Royal Commission, but no costed policies. Elsewhere a proposal of 3 years tax free for NHS are care workers, if I read it correctly:
CRITICAL REFORMS NEEDED IN THE FIRST 100 DAYS: Commence Royal Commission of Inquiry into Social Care System A national plan is critical for a sustainable social care system. The sector needs flexibility, tax incentives, VAT breaks and less waste. Simplify social care through a single funding stream, instead of the split between NHS and Local Authorities. More funding will be needed when a national plan is agreed.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.
Why the fuck not?
Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.
I can offer two reasons: 1) Young people don't court that way. They do it online and are slightly uncomfortable with the sort of IRL flirting which give clubs some of their frisson. 2) Pubs are open later. Think back to the 90s: you went to a club whether you wanted to or not because the pubs shut at 11. Interestingly, Edinburgh's clubs were actually a bit shit for a city of its size because the pubs stayed open longer and provided less impetus to move on.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.
Why the fuck not?
Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.
In my experience....a 33 year old son and 14 year old god daughter they don't listen to music anymore. They hear music in film soundtracks or the background of tiktoks. They just don't sit there with just music playing like we used to in the 70's and 80's
My 9 year old daughter loves discovering music on YouTube (she's not allowed TikTok).
She regularly asks me while I'm driving to play a song I've never heard of before, by an artist I'd never heard of before.
I am not arguing music is dead and gone merely the band everyone likes and remembers for the next 100 years is....too fragmented now and don't think thats a bad thing. The days where we went to a record shop and everyone had the same couple of hundred lp's to choose from or take what tv or radio decided we should here have long gone thank god.
Indeed now I probably listen to more stuff that has never been near a record company than I listen to what record companies deem worthy....not even sure if I have heard anything taylor swift has sung to be honest. I only know about her from the news.
Note I don't watch tv, I don't have a radio and I choose my music not listen to whatever I am served so no surprise. Most of what I listen too that has been near a record company however is probably a mix, I enjoy some tull, pink floyd, rush as well as the non mainstream stuff
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely? I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting
You could pick almost anything from Kate Bush. How about the topic of nuclear war experienced from the perspective of an unborn foetus?
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.
Why the fuck not?
Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.
I can offer two reasons: 1) Young people don't court that way. They do it online and are slightly uncomfortable with the sort of IRL flirting which give clubs some of their frisson. 2) Pubs are open later. Think back to the 90s: you went to a club whether you wanted to or not because the pubs shut at 11. Interestingly, Edinburgh's clubs were actually a bit shit for a city of its size because the pubs stayed open longer and provided less impetus to move on.
No doubt there are others.
Agree, sadly, on one- and they're doing it wrong because there's less sex and relationships all round.
Two, not for me: I went to clubs because I wanted to throw some shapes.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
It has been scientifically proven that the best music TV and film was when you were aged about 16 years old, however old you are.
As someone born in 1982 its just a coincidence that I was 16 when such legendary music as Vindaloo, Viva Forever and When the Lights Go Out came out. Anyone who disagrees that's the best music can lick my Chocolate Salty Balls.
I wouldn't say 1998 was the best year for music. Iris is one of the few songs from that year that's still on my playlist today.
The late 90s were surprisingly shit for pop. There was a series of top of the pops from the 90s on BBC4 a few years ago. It was notable and a bit sad how tge quality tailed off. 90-95 were pretty strong,and then a steep decline thereafter. This wasn't just because of my age - I was 15 in 1990 - because once you get into the noughties things pick up a bit again.
Britpop was awesome up until 1998. 1991 to 1996 being the peak.
You then got the dance acts moving in from 1998 through to 2002, which I liked, but if you throw in Bewitched and the Spice Girls on top in 1998 or 1999, it wasn't quite the same.
I believe a minor band that I doubt anybody on here has heard of called Radiohead brought out their OK Computer album in late 1990s....
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.
Why the fuck not?
Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely? I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.
Why the fuck not?
Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.
I can offer two reasons: 1) Young people don't court that way. They do it online and are slightly uncomfortable with the sort of IRL flirting which give clubs some of their frisson. 2) Pubs are open later. Think back to the 90s: you went to a club whether you wanted to or not because the pubs shut at 11. Interestingly, Edinburgh's clubs were actually a bit shit for a city of its size because the pubs stayed open longer and provided less impetus to move on.
No doubt there are others.
Agree, sadly, on one- and they're doing it wrong because there's less sex and relationships all round.
Two, not for me: I went to clubs because I wanted to throw some shapes.
Why would any man meet a girl in a pub now? If she has had a couple of drinks you are relying on her not claiming she wasn't fit to give consent the following day if you end up back at your place/her place/the car park/ back of the taxi/the pub loos/ the number 99 bus else you are in trouble
Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries.
Oh come on. Taylor Swift is not a great artist. She is very successful and good at what she does. But that was true of Dave Dee Dozy Beaky Mick and Titch and Duran Duran.
Donald Trump will be remembered. Probably not as a great president, but as a very newsworthy one.
Taylor Swift? Bit shit.
But she's nice with a lovely PR machine. And she works hard.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
A key change is a cheap trick to enliven an otherwise uninteresting piece of music. It's hardly a marker of musical sophistication, imho.
Young people should be going out, getting hammered, dancing like crazy and then copping off with people they then laugh about the next day. And doing it all over again the next week.
Is Trump cracking-up? I realise many will think he already has. It seems that the valid criticism is getting to Donald, even by his usual standards the comments on Comey, Swift, and Springsteen are particularly unhinged.
An interesting look at Reform's fiscal policies. Either they are just making shit up which they have no intention of implementing, or they are a massive danger to the UK economy.
Certainly from the last election their proposals were lacking in any cohesion. Next election they will get far more scrutiny. Deservedly so if they are in with a chance of being a part of any govt.
Is Trump cracking-up? I realise many will think he already has. It seems that the valid criticism is getting to Donald, even by his usual standards the comments on Comey, Swift, and Springsteen are particularly unhinged.
He is having a bad day, policy wise. Budget, Ukraine...
But yes, he is losing it. Bigly.
Nobody has ever gone as mad in office as him, lots of people are saying so...
Young people should be going out, getting hammered, dancing like crazy and then copping off with people they then laugh about the next day. And doing it all over again the next week.
That's what being young is FOR.
It was, but would it have been like that in our day, even allowing for you being a bit younger than me, had everyone had a video camera on them and the ability to post it immediately to everyone you knew?
Smart phones and social media are like an authoritarian moral police force keeping youngsters in check. I would say it's taken teenage kids back to Victorian times in a way
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
It's a good song - but it's not ALL that needs to be said, surely? I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
The weird thing I find is that young people are no longer going out clubbing. Or drinking.
Why the fuck not?
Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.
My 18yo daughter is not a massive drinker but she seems to spend a lot of time going out dancing until the wee small hours.
Young people should be going out, getting hammered, dancing like crazy and then copping off with people they then laugh about the next day. And doing it all over again the next week.
That's what being young is FOR.
100% right. Some of them still do. I spent all night on the tube a few months ago after my hotel booking went wrong, and at about 4 in the morning on Friday night there were still a fair number of them around but I guess you'd expect that in a city of 10 million people.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
A key change is a cheap trick to enliven an otherwise uninteresting piece of music. It's hardly a marker of musical sophistication, imho.
Its not just key changes. It is chord progressions and lyrical complexity as well. By pretty much all the measures music has simplified and, IMO, dumbed down.
And that is before you even start to look at autotuning to make crap voices sound good.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
It has been scientifically proven that the best music TV and film was when you were aged about 16 years old, however old you are.
As someone born in 1982 its just a coincidence that I was 16 when such legendary music as Vindaloo, Viva Forever and When the Lights Go Out came out. Anyone who disagrees that's the best music can lick my Chocolate Salty Balls.
I wouldn't say 1998 was the best year for music. Iris is one of the few songs from that year that's still on my playlist today.
The late 90s were surprisingly shit for pop. There was a series of top of the pops from the 90s on BBC4 a few years ago. It was notable and a bit sad how tge quality tailed off. 90-95 were pretty strong,and then a steep decline thereafter. This wasn't just because of my age - I was 15 in 1990 - because once you get into the noughties things pick up a bit again.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
I can confidently state that 1979 to 1984 were the greatest years ever for pop music. Anyone who disagrees is an idiot.
Old people complaining about modern music has to be the most boring conversation topic known to man.
Doing it with apparent knowledge of popular music that doesn't extend past Taylor Swift makes it comical.
Music has become more diverse than it was in the past. There are a huge number of acts crossing all genres past and present. Mainstream and alternative. Musically simple and musically ambitious.
To take an example: many peers my age (30s) look back at the 2000s as peak music. And many bands from that era are having a resurgence in popularity with today's young people (e.g. Linkin Park and Green Day have more monthly listens on Spotify than the Beatles). Yet others here draw the cut off at 2000.
In the future people will look back at 2010s and 2020s music in the same way.
So can we move onto something more interesting like the benefits and drawback of the Alternative Voting system?
This guy on YouTube has done a presentation on archetypal memetics and the archetypal meme curve. It looks useful and I'd like to do an article on it. But I assume he didn't invent it, and although he mentions Petersen vs Dawkins, I assume they didn't come up with it. Can anybody advise where this guy got the idea for archetypal memetics and the archetypal meme curve?
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
A key change is a cheap trick to enliven an otherwise uninteresting piece of music. It's hardly a marker of musical sophistication, imho.
Its not just key changes. It is chord progressions and lyrical complexity as well. By pretty much all the measures music has simplified and, IMO, dumbed down.
And that is before you even start to look at autotuning to make crap voices sound good.
I have been listening to a podcast called A History of Rock Music in 500 songs, by Andrew Hickey recently, and would recommend to anyone interested in the details of songs, albums, and the stories behind them.
When comparing songs of yesteryear with the current batch, you have to remember that all of the good notes have been taken.
Mathematically there are only so many combinations of 8 notes that can be played before some young music industry exective starts shouting 'plagiarism'...
Indeed men with out hats were sued over 8 notes for plagiarism only about 40k ways to arrange 8 notes over an 8 note sequence
Jethro Tull claim that one of their songs inspired some of the guitar work on Hotel California by The Eagles.
George Harrison was sued for plagiarising He’s so Fine by the Chiffons. His song, y Sweet Lord from his majestic Album ‘All Things Must Pass’.
John Lennon, being a wanker, basically sided with the suing party.
Young people should be going out, getting hammered, dancing like crazy and then copping off with people they then laugh about the next day. And doing it all over again the next week.
That's what being young is FOR.
No, they should be overthrowing the class system. If they can also squeeze in a few laughs, fine, so long as it doesn't detract.
Not sure if Taylor will be remembered but I believe Bach was largely forgotten, certainly not publicly performed, for 80 odd years after his death.
It took Mendelssohn to rediscover him. Makes you wonder who or what genius we (or are children) will rediscover from the 1940s and 50s who is utterly ignored
Happens in poetry too. Gerard Manley Hopkins nearly disappeared entirely, without even being noticed. Rescued by Robert Bridges? Now accepted as one of the greatest ever English poets
Something similar happened to Donne IIRC - over a longer timespan - and ditto
Blake and van Gogh. Only recognised as geniuses long after their deaths. Similar to B'witched in 200 years.
Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.
I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.
Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.
That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.
Yes, I agree with that
And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?
Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs
TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else
And, I repeat, I like her music
I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.
There has been an actual study done on this which shows that music has become less complex. Both Chord changes and key changes have reduced dramatically
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
Yes, it's not disputed. Music has got less complex, less interesting, less varied, and the lyrics have similarly got simpler and cruder. It's a known, measurable thing. We are not imagining it
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
I can confidently state that 1979 to 1984 were the greatest years ever for pop music. Anyone who disagrees is an idiot.
Lots of doctors, scientists, entrepreneurs, innovators and engineers:
I don't think the immigration sceptics were crying wolf in 2015-16, but the debate has led to the most extreme form of immigration, beyond anyone's worst dreams really, to be not taken seriously enough, probably because the person first to make noise about it was Nigel Farage, and his opponents are used to reflexively disagreeing with him
It's always a good day on PB when you get classic sentences like this:
"Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries"
Remember the day you read that. Then, in 500 years time, where there are stages and auditoriums across the solar system, dedicated to replaying the songs of Taylor Swift, to vast, million-strong audiemces of delighted humanoids, all revelling in the immortally poetic chorus of "I knew You Were Trouble" or basking in the incredible emotional profundity of "Look What You Made Me Do" you can point to this and say "I was there when @BartholomewRoberts predicted exactly this"
And in the corner will be @NigelB saying "I told you I'd forget Donald Trump by 2029!"
You're repeating yourself, somewhat more tediously this time. If you can't understand the point which I explained to you at some length, then please obsess over something else. And will you please drop the @ - it auto-generates a completely unnecessary notification.
It doesn't for me - it's often days before I notice I've been @ed.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts: 1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful. 2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Dreadlock Holiday said what needs to be said about cricket.
You clearly haven't listened to "When an old cricketer leaves the crease" by Roy Harper
When the day is done and the ball Has spun in the umpires pocket away And all remains in the groundsman's pains for The rest of time and a day
Well of course Duckworth Lewis method (Neil Hannon of Divine Comedy and Thomas Walsh from Pugwash) did a whole album. A song about the emergence of T20, one about reminiscences of cricket on childhood holidays, one about on old fella sleeping on the boundary, one about the Ball of the Century, one about the nobility of the Night Watchman... But we've still only got about 15 or so songs in the cannon about cricket to God knows however many thousands on the arguably slightly less interesting and important subject of Romantic Love.
Ooh, another one about cricket: "Let's get this over and done with" by Mr. B the Gentleman Rhymer - a song of irritation about the World Cup and how much better cricket is than football. Though Mr. B is actually an invented character by some fella out of Collapsed Lung and in real life prefers football, sadly.
His best track is The Crack Song. Ties in nicely with the discussion on music as well.
Comments
CHORTLE
https://bsky.app/profile/rickchasey.bsky.social/post/3ll2btujer22a
That's not an opinion: there's cold, hard polling data that backs that up.
Either they are just making shit up which they have no intention of implementing, or they are a massive danger to the UK economy.
Taking Reform UK seriously
And learning just how deep the fiscal hole goes
https://notes.archie-hall.com/p/taking-reform-uk-seriously
Something similar happened to Donne IIRC - over a longer timespan - and ditto
The study that was done in 2022 looked at every number one hit listed on the Billboard Hot 100 since 1958 – more than 1100 songs.
About a 25% of those songs from the 1960s to the 1990s included a key change.
Between 2010 and 2020 the number of number one hit songs including a key change was.... 1
The problem you have is getting you battleship within 50 miles of anything.
A large amount of ordinance is a firework display waiting to happen. See the Russian Black Sea fleet.
Definitely not peak music for me. That honour goes to 1965 - 1980.
This happens in art forms. Who gives a fuck about modern poetry, or the latest opera? Art forms come and go, they rise and peak and fall
Popular music peaked 1965-2000
But other forms of art replace them, as they rise in turn. Who expected TV drama to become so sophisticated and rewarding? There was no hint of the Golden Age to come in 1980
Meanwhile videogames are a whole new artform - not to my taste, but I accept they are now highly creative and imaginative
My lads probably can't even name The Beatles, let alone listen to them, and my middle lad is currently away forging a decent career in the music video/ festival recording business!
Anyone can make half decent recordings now without even being able to play a note or have a decent voice.
AI killed the Spotify star....
I wouldn't say 1998 was the best year for music. Iris is one of the few songs from that year that's still on my playlist today.
I think Leon's point about pop music getting simpler is hard to argue with, but I'll give it a go on two fronts:
1) We're comparing the simplest stuff today with the best stuff from the 60s. As I said, DDDBM&T weren't exactly Dylan but were tremendously successful.
2) Pop music has fragmented. There is all sorts of good, complex, interesting stuff today. But because we can pick and choose which bits we can consume in a way which wasn't true 60 years ago, much of the really good stuff only gets niche attention.
Also, surely, surely we are at the point now where everything worthwhile on the subject of romantic love has been said in pop music. I want more albums about aliens and cricket.
Everyone bought the same songs.
The number one single was often bought by more than 5% of people in the 15 to 25 range.
Now, everything is digital, and there is huge fragmentation. The top songs are now listened to by far fewer people.
President Donald Trump’s agenda has been thrown into chaos after a group of GOP hardliners blocked the bill in a key committee vote on Friday – dealing a major embarrassment to House Republican leaders and Trump himself.
https://bsky.app/profile/cnn.com/post/3lpchzhq4ic2u
Much of it holds no appeal at all for me, but it's there.
Some of those computer games that Leon mentions have soundtracks that are really rather good. They (rather than the games themselves) might well still be being played in a generation.
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/37i9dQZF1DX7iB3RCnBnN4?si=5vjZfoHnTiaYHdaQptXUmQ&pi=wHJYUXrQTPeEz
Mathematically there are only so many combinations of 8 notes that can be played before some young music industry exective starts shouting 'plagiarism'...
I do enjoy an attempt at an unusual topic in pop. For an opening gambit, Cloudbusting by Kate Bush - broadly a (true) song about a boy whose dad tried to build a machine to make it rain but then the government came to take him away:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudbusting
I didn't hear him say much about Social Care spending (about half of the Welsh Government's Budget) or Housing (27%) but he's happy to waste time and effort on tiny amounts of peripheral spending.
I've not heard Reform's ideas on social care and as they will (apparently) have to deal with this poisoned chalice in 2028-29, it might be interesting to hear their ideas (if they have any).
When the day is done and the ball
Has spun in the umpires pocket away
And all remains in the groundsman's pains for
The rest of time and a day
I hope you are well enough to be back in your garden soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-1_9-z9rbY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzlofSthVwc
The BBC first broadcast The Proms.
Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Woolf, Sassoon, Conrad, Lawrence, Frost, Eliot, Pound, A.A Milne, Agatha Christie ....
The last Sherlock Holmes stories were published.
That's scratching the surface.
🚨🚨🚨BREAKING: Republicans just failed to pass their own budget bill out of committee.
They couldn’t agree on how many people to take health care away from in order to give billionaires a tax cut.
Embarrassing.
Why the fuck not?
Young people have been dancing together to rhythmic sounds since the Stone Age.
CRITICAL REFORMS NEEDED IN THE FIRST 100 DAYS: Commence Royal Commission of Inquiry into Social Care System A national plan is critical for a sustainable social care system. The sector needs flexibility, tax incentives, VAT breaks and less waste. Simplify social care through a single funding stream, instead of the split between NHS and Local Authorities. More funding will be needed when a national plan is agreed.
Page 20 of the manifesto:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/reformuk/pages/253/attachments/original/1718625371/Reform_UK_Our_Contract_with_You.pdf?1718625371
Certainly as far 1920s are concerned, you can barely separate today's knowledge of the then popular culture from the "characters in the news".
That you're not intimate with Sassoon is a bit beside the point. You wouldn't say the same of Agatha Christie or Winnie the Pooh.
You then got the dance acts moving in from 1998 through to 2002, which I liked, but if you throw in Bewitched and the Spice Girls on top in 1998 or 1999, it wasn't quite the same.
She regularly asks me while I'm driving to play a song I've never heard of before, by an artist I'd never heard of before.
Ooh, another one about cricket: "Let's get this over and done with" by Mr. B the Gentleman Rhymer - a song of irritation about the World Cup and how much better cricket is than football. Though Mr. B is actually an invented character by some fella out of Collapsed Lung and in real life prefers football, sadly.
Bridget Brink said she brought an end to her 30-year diplomatic career because she could “no longer in good faith carry out the administration’s policy” and issued a call for America to “show leadership in the face of aggression, not weakness or complicity”.
https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/bridget-brink-us-ukraine-ambassador-russia-kgjlfrw33
Today was outrageous — raw, though expected belligerence fm Kremlin. Core question remains: how will Trump recalibrate? Status quo is untenable. He could walk — not easy. Impose peace on Ukraine — unclear he has leverage. Or raise pressure on Putin — the path he least wants.
https://x.com/olliecarroll/status/1923423327143481597
There's nothing "local" about care, its decided under nationally-determined guidelines, so should be nationally funded.
Locally-funded things should be stuff decided by local voters, not national ones.
Same goes for SEND.
1) Young people don't court that way. They do it online and are slightly uncomfortable with the sort of IRL flirting which give clubs some of their frisson.
2) Pubs are open later. Think back to the 90s: you went to a club whether you wanted to or not because the pubs shut at 11. Interestingly, Edinburgh's clubs were actually a bit shit for a city of its size because the pubs stayed open longer and provided less impetus to move on.
No doubt there are others.
He helped craft the 'headset' she used, years before Britney...
Indeed now I probably listen to more stuff that has never been near a record company than I listen to what record companies deem worthy....not even sure if I have heard anything taylor swift has sung to be honest. I only know about her from the news.
Note I don't watch tv, I don't have a radio and I choose my music not listen to whatever I am served so no surprise. Most of what I listen too that has been near a record company however is probably a mix, I enjoy some tull, pink floyd, rush as well as the non mainstream stuff
Two, not for me: I went to clubs because I wanted to throw some shapes.
I really want to order a curry
But she's nice with a lovely PR machine. And she works hard.
That's what being young is FOR.
But yes, he is losing it. Bigly.
Nobody has ever gone as mad in office as him, lots of people are saying so...
"Groceries"
Smart phones and social media are like an authoritarian moral police force keeping youngsters in check. I would say it's taken teenage kids back to Victorian times in a way
And that is before you even start to look at autotuning to make crap voices sound good.
The Bends and OK Computer.
Blur.
Some bits of Oasis.
Different Class by Pulp.
Doing it with apparent knowledge of popular music that doesn't extend past Taylor Swift makes it comical.
Music has become more diverse than it was in the past. There are a huge number of acts crossing all genres past and present. Mainstream and alternative. Musically simple and musically ambitious.
To take an example: many peers my age (30s) look back at the 2000s as peak music. And many bands from that era are having a resurgence in popularity with today's young people (e.g. Linkin Park and Green Day have more monthly listens on Spotify than the Beatles). Yet others here draw the cut off at 2000.
In the future people will look back at 2010s and 2020s music in the same way.
So can we move onto something more interesting like the benefits and drawback of the Alternative Voting system?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JB6YgmeAr4
George Harrison was sued for plagiarising He’s so Fine by the Chiffons. His song, y Sweet Lord from his majestic Album ‘All Things Must Pass’.
John Lennon, being a wanker, basically sided with the suing party.
Although George had the last laugh.
Only recognised as geniuses long after their
deaths.
Similar to B'witched in 200 years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlzXlDefWmg