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Donald Trump: The great unifier of Europe – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,421
edited April 17 in General
Donald Trump: The great unifier of Europe – politicalbetting.com

57% of Britons would rather have the EU as a close trading partner than the US, amid suggestion that closer alignment with Europe could endanger a trade deal with the USEU: 57% (+4 from 21 Jan)US: 16% (-5)yougov.co.uk/topics/econo…

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Comments

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,110
    The Napoleon Prize is surely Trump's, even if he misses out on the Nobel.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,285
    Vibeshift klaxon.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,095
    Scone again!
  • (1/5)

    I’ve worked for three very large telecoms companies and not once have I ever felt the need to put my pronouns on an email. I never have and never will as I can’t personally see the point.

    But if somebody wants to, isn’t that up to them? I agree we should not force people to do it but assuming that’s the case would you still have a problem with it?

    This seems no different than forcing me to wear a suit. I’m glad that’s over.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,062
    @afneil

    Donald Trump has become a recruiting sergeant for the Left in other countries.
    In Canada his threats about making it the 51st have single-handedly revived the fortunes of the left-leaning Liberal party under Mark Carney. The right-wing alternative, who had a 20-point poll lead when Trump came to power, has seen that lead evaporate because he’s regarded as too much like Trump.
    In Australia the incumbent Labour Party has been given a boost by Trump and the unimpressive Anthony Albanese now looks like being re-elected — partly because his right-wing challenger Peter Dutton is also seen as too Trumpy (even if he’s not).
    Which puts Nigel Farage in an interesting position. His Reform party has become the change-maker of British politics. But if he wants to continue in that vein I suspect he’ll be distancing himself from Trump. Perhaps he already is.

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1912751864140939518
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,441
    Scott_xP said:

    @afneil

    Donald Trump has become a recruiting sergeant for the Left in other countries.
    In Canada his threats about making it the 51st have single-handedly revived the fortunes of the left-leaning Liberal party under Mark Carney. The right-wing alternative, who had a 20-point poll lead when Trump came to power, has seen that lead evaporate because he’s regarded as too much like Trump.
    In Australia the incumbent Labour Party has been given a boost by Trump and the unimpressive Anthony Albanese now looks like being re-elected — partly because his right-wing challenger Peter Dutton is also seen as too Trumpy (even if he’s not).
    Which puts Nigel Farage in an interesting position. His Reform party has become the change-maker of British politics. But if he wants to continue in that vein I suspect he’ll be distancing himself from Trump. Perhaps he already is.

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1912751864140939518

    Which would lose us wonderful memes like:

    Not only has Donald Trump had a piss in a bed, he's also had a shit in a lift.

  • (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,679

    (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.

    You're limiting yourself to five posts a day? Or you have five pre-written opinions on divers topics?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,208
    Scott_xP said:

    @afneil

    Donald Trump has become a recruiting sergeant for the Left in other countries.
    In Canada his threats about making it the 51st have single-handedly revived the fortunes of the left-leaning Liberal party under Mark Carney. The right-wing alternative, who had a 20-point poll lead when Trump came to power, has seen that lead evaporate because he’s regarded as too much like Trump.
    In Australia the incumbent Labour Party has been given a boost by Trump and the unimpressive Anthony Albanese now looks like being re-elected — partly because his right-wing challenger Peter Dutton is also seen as too Trumpy (even if he’s not).
    Which puts Nigel Farage in an interesting position. His Reform party has become the change-maker of British politics. But if he wants to continue in that vein I suspect he’ll be distancing himself from Trump. Perhaps he already is.

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1912751864140939518

    For a political genius, Brillo seems to be stating the obvious.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,334

    Scott_xP said:

    @afneil

    Donald Trump has become a recruiting sergeant for the Left in other countries.
    In Canada his threats about making it the 51st have single-handedly revived the fortunes of the left-leaning Liberal party under Mark Carney. The right-wing alternative, who had a 20-point poll lead when Trump came to power, has seen that lead evaporate because he’s regarded as too much like Trump.
    In Australia the incumbent Labour Party has been given a boost by Trump and the unimpressive Anthony Albanese now looks like being re-elected — partly because his right-wing challenger Peter Dutton is also seen as too Trumpy (even if he’s not).
    Which puts Nigel Farage in an interesting position. His Reform party has become the change-maker of British politics. But if he wants to continue in that vein I suspect he’ll be distancing himself from Trump. Perhaps he already is.

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1912751864140939518

    For a political genius, Brillo seems to be stating the obvious.
    The key bit is the (unsaid by Neill) bit at the end.

    But if I want to continue in that vein I suspect I’ll be distancing myself from Trump. Perhaps I already am.

    Tricky things, pronouns.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,645
    Scott_xP said:

    @afneil

    Donald Trump has become a recruiting sergeant for the Left in other countries.
    In Canada his threats about making it the 51st have single-handedly revived the fortunes of the left-leaning Liberal party under Mark Carney. The right-wing alternative, who had a 20-point poll lead when Trump came to power, has seen that lead evaporate because he’s regarded as too much like Trump.
    In Australia the incumbent Labour Party has been given a boost by Trump and the unimpressive Anthony Albanese now looks like being re-elected — partly because his right-wing challenger Peter Dutton is also seen as too Trumpy (even if he’s not).
    Which puts Nigel Farage in an interesting position. His Reform party has become the change-maker of British politics. But if he wants to continue in that vein I suspect he’ll be distancing himself from Trump. Perhaps he already is.

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1912751864140939518

    Romania may be a counter example, with Trumpist candidates polling well in the presidential race.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,208
    Foxy said:

    (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.

    Reform are just being Populist. Farage used to be Thatcherite and cheered the Kamikwase budget under Truss, yet now supports steel renationalisation.

    It's just typical opportunism. Labour has a big problem though. Staking everything on deliverism means they have to deliver, and so far they are not doing so. Voters are not usually known for their patience.
    I don't believe delivery is enough. See Biden 2024.

    Let's hope Farage doesn't crash the country like Trump has the US.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,645
    carnforth said:

    (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.

    You're limiting yourself to five posts a day? Or you have five pre-written opinions on divers topics?
    He’s doing the former.

    Bill Bruford, drummer in several famous bands, once suggested maybe musicians should only be allowed to make ten albums in their lives so as to focus their creativity!
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,406
    Foxy said:

    (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.

    Reform are just being Populist. Farage used to be Thatcherite and cheered the Kamikwase budget under Truss, yet now supports steel renationalisation.

    It's just typical opportunism. Labour has a big problem though. Staking everything on deliverism means they have to deliver, and so far they are not doing so. Voters are not usually known for their patience.
    It may well be opportunism, but in the case of steel renationalisation perhaps it isn't. AIUI, the steelworks was purchased by a Chinese company (which British companies were competing?) and hindsight is suggesting that was a bad move for national security reasons. So the steelworks needs to be bought back, but there is now/still no British company willing to take it on.

    The government in that case is a purchaser of last resort. In my view that isn't the same thing as being in favour of (re)nationalisation in principle.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,334
    edited April 17
    Foxy said:

    (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.

    Reform are just being Populist. Farage used to be Thatcherite and cheered the Kamikwase budget under Truss, yet now supports steel renationalisation.

    It's just typical opportunism. Labour has a big problem though. Staking everything on deliverism means they have to deliver, and so far they are not doing so. Voters are not usually known for their patience.
    True, that the government has to deliver, and voters are impatient. Hence the current polling. I suspect that we're collectively cynical enough that a story wouldn't help much, either.

    And whilst there have been bits of delivery- stopping public sector strikes by accepting reality on pay has helped a lot in ways we underplay- it's not yet been enough.

    But the polling now is just polling. Ask not-Prime Ministers Ed Milliband and Neil Kinnock. The relevant deadline is 2028/9.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,844
    Interesting times we live in. A coalescence of international trade is occurring before our very eyes - one which is going to include China and not include America.

    The moron fodder in the US are being told to shout and scream that MAGA will MAGA (cf Brexit means Brexit). That the inferior foreigners are being brought into line and into their place - subjects of the Great America. That tariffs will bring not only manufacturing to the US but that US made goods will be global.

    That the reality is so starkly opposite presents challenges. The US would need to remove Trump and publicly disown him for global former partners to trust them - and we all know that isn't about to happen.

    And so we have countries seeking to understand exactly what Murica is doing. Trump then screams SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT because the Japanese are here to kiss the ring. But no ring is kissed and they depart.

    A world with an isolationist America propagandising its population whilst the world gets on with business without it. Interesting times indeed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,602

    (1/5)

    I’ve worked for three very large telecoms companies and not once have I ever felt the need to put my pronouns on an email. I never have and never will as I can’t personally see the point.

    But if somebody wants to, isn’t that up to them? I agree we should not force people to do it but assuming that’s the case would you still have a problem with it?

    This seems no different than forcing me to wear a suit. I’m glad that’s over.

    Is anyone actually forced ?

    If Casino was genuinely pressured on this (as opposed to being oversensitive to others adopting the practice), then that's a problem with his workplace, not the culture.

    (FWIW, I've never bothered either, and don't care whether others do, or don't.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,602
    carnforth said:

    (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.

    You're limiting yourself to five posts a day? Or you have five pre-written opinions on divers topics?
    To answer that would be to waste a post...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,602
    Donald Trump’s nominee to run the IRS, Representative Billy Long, just had a six-figure debt paid off by campaign donors, all of whom happen to have tax issues with the IRS.
    https://x.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1912680089730359408
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,844
    Nigelb said:

    (1/5)

    I’ve worked for three very large telecoms companies and not once have I ever felt the need to put my pronouns on an email. I never have and never will as I can’t personally see the point.

    But if somebody wants to, isn’t that up to them? I agree we should not force people to do it but assuming that’s the case would you still have a problem with it?

    This seems no different than forcing me to wear a suit. I’m glad that’s over.

    Is anyone actually forced ?

    If Casino was genuinely pressured on this (as opposed to being oversensitive to others adopting the practice), then that's a problem with his workplace, not the culture.

    (FWIW, I've never bothered either, and don't care whether others do, or don't.)
    Nobody is forced. I've never deployed pronouns and nobody has even hinted that it would be appreciated. I see some people doing it performatively on LinkedIn and roll my eyes. I see other people do it on email signatures and thank them because it means I know what gender they are when the name is unclear for morons like me.

    Casino wants a war on pronouns because they are "woke" - thats all. And we know what "woke" means when it is deployed in anger...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,080
    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump’s nominee to run the IRS, Representative Billy Long, just had a six-figure debt paid off by campaign donors, all of whom happen to have tax issues with the IRS.
    https://x.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1912680089730359408

    The corruption is astonishing . And it’s in full view .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,441

    Scott_xP said:

    @afneil

    Donald Trump has become a recruiting sergeant for the Left in other countries.
    In Canada his threats about making it the 51st have single-handedly revived the fortunes of the left-leaning Liberal party under Mark Carney. The right-wing alternative, who had a 20-point poll lead when Trump came to power, has seen that lead evaporate because he’s regarded as too much like Trump.
    In Australia the incumbent Labour Party has been given a boost by Trump and the unimpressive Anthony Albanese now looks like being re-elected — partly because his right-wing challenger Peter Dutton is also seen as too Trumpy (even if he’s not).
    Which puts Nigel Farage in an interesting position. His Reform party has become the change-maker of British politics. But if he wants to continue in that vein I suspect he’ll be distancing himself from Trump. Perhaps he already is.

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1912751864140939518

    Romania may be a counter example, with Trumpist candidates polling well in the presidential race.
    Although that's a country where Russia have been doing extensive electoral interference (to the extent that last year's election is being rerun) so I'm not sure we can take reliable comparisons.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,208

    Nigelb said:

    (1/5)

    I’ve worked for three very large telecoms companies and not once have I ever felt the need to put my pronouns on an email. I never have and never will as I can’t personally see the point.

    But if somebody wants to, isn’t that up to them? I agree we should not force people to do it but assuming that’s the case would you still have a problem with it?

    This seems no different than forcing me to wear a suit. I’m glad that’s over.

    Is anyone actually forced ?

    If Casino was genuinely pressured on this (as opposed to being oversensitive to others adopting the practice), then that's a problem with his workplace, not the culture.

    (FWIW, I've never bothered either, and don't care whether others do, or don't.)
    Nobody is forced. I've never deployed pronouns and nobody has even hinted that it would be appreciated. I see some people doing it performatively on LinkedIn and roll my eyes. I see other people do it on email signatures and thank them because it means I know what gender they are when the name is unclear for morons like me.

    Casino wants a war on pronouns because they are "woke" - thats all. And we know what "woke" means when it is deployed in anger...
    Life's too short. I'm happy to address everyone with whatever pronouns suit them. I mean we all knew LadyG wasn't really a lady.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,406

    Interesting times we live in. A coalescence of international trade is occurring before our very eyes - one which is going to include China and not include America.

    The moron fodder in the US are being told to shout and scream that MAGA will MAGA (cf Brexit means Brexit). That the inferior foreigners are being brought into line and into their place - subjects of the Great America. That tariffs will bring not only manufacturing to the US but that US made goods will be global.

    That the reality is so starkly opposite presents challenges. The US would need to remove Trump and publicly disown him for global former partners to trust them - and we all know that isn't about to happen.

    And so we have countries seeking to understand exactly what Murica is doing. Trump then screams SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT because the Japanese are here to kiss the ring. But no ring is kissed and they depart.

    A world with an isolationist America propagandising its population whilst the world gets on with business without it. Interesting times indeed.

    It troubles me that the UK and US are apparently close to a trade deal. What's the point in doing any deal when we all know the US will pocket its gains and renege on its commitments?

    I'd much prefer us not to make any commitments at all at this stage.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,876
    The interesting split is between the Conservatives and Reform where the former would choose the EU as the UK's main partner. You wouldn't guess from the rhetoric of the party leadership.

    (Although it might make sense as a probably doomed gambit to woo back the fruitcakes).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,430
    The country and possibly the world is moving towards the progressives and the reactionaries which is how it works best. It all feels accelerated at the moment but that feels like a good thing. The populists are the reactionaries and the pendulum seems to be moving away from them
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,985
    edited April 17
    Foxy said:

    The difference between Reform and Tories on this shows once again that their votes are not interchangeable.

    And also indicates that there is a fairly severe upper limit to Reform's vote, and reasons why the Lab/Con/LD/Green/Nats/DK voters will have grounds to hold their noses and vote for whichever party can beat them.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,844
    AnneJGP said:

    Foxy said:

    (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.

    Reform are just being Populist. Farage used to be Thatcherite and cheered the Kamikwase budget under Truss, yet now supports steel renationalisation.

    It's just typical opportunism. Labour has a big problem though. Staking everything on deliverism means they have to deliver, and so far they are not doing so. Voters are not usually known for their patience.
    It may well be opportunism, but in the case of steel renationalisation perhaps it isn't. AIUI, the steelworks was purchased by a Chinese company (which British companies were competing?) and hindsight is suggesting that was a bad move for national security reasons. So the steelworks needs to be bought back, but there is now/still no British company willing to take it on.

    The government in that case is a purchaser of last resort. In my view that isn't the same thing as being in favour of (re)nationalisation in principle.
    The bigger picture which Labour can't get their heads around is that these privately-owned businesses operate assets which represent Britain's strategic national security interests.

    At the very least we need to tightly regulate them. And if that fails bring them back in house. Thames Water is the obvious candidate alongside British Steel. And yet neither have been repossessed because Treasury orthodoxy states that debt would then become public and what does that mean for our calculations?

    Who cares? When we moved house the last thing I added on was nearly £3k for a new TV. A lot of money - but small compared to the move costs. Reeves calculations have already been swept away by events - twice. And they've been in office for 10 months. So what does it matter?

    Key to this is secure the asset and start saving money. In the case of Thames Water because of the appalling mismanagement and lack of grasp on costs there are big savings to be made by taking over. In the case of BS it needs to be kept operational and the owner was about to shut it. A very small change in the state of the national debt to save a whole load more money later.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,110

    Nigelb said:

    (1/5)

    I’ve worked for three very large telecoms companies and not once have I ever felt the need to put my pronouns on an email. I never have and never will as I can’t personally see the point.

    But if somebody wants to, isn’t that up to them? I agree we should not force people to do it but assuming that’s the case would you still have a problem with it?

    This seems no different than forcing me to wear a suit. I’m glad that’s over.

    Is anyone actually forced ?

    If Casino was genuinely pressured on this (as opposed to being oversensitive to others adopting the practice), then that's a problem with his workplace, not the culture.

    (FWIW, I've never bothered either, and don't care whether others do, or don't.)
    Nobody is forced. I've never deployed pronouns and nobody has even hinted that it would be appreciated. I see some people doing it performatively on LinkedIn and roll my eyes. I see other people do it on email signatures and thank them because it means I know what gender they are when the name is unclear for morons like me.

    Casino wants a war on pronouns because they are "woke" - thats all. And we know what "woke" means when it is deployed in anger...
    Yep, people just use their email sign off to reduce the chance of some mistake or social awkwardness. "I require wheelchair access", "I have caring responsibilities - please text this number if I'm unavailable", "it's pronounced neeve" etc etc

    We all want to respect one another, and pronouns make that easier to do so in some cases. Basic courtesy.
  • CollegeCollege Posts: 82
    @Leon - I have PMed you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,441

    Nigelb said:

    (1/5)

    I’ve worked for three very large telecoms companies and not once have I ever felt the need to put my pronouns on an email. I never have and never will as I can’t personally see the point.

    But if somebody wants to, isn’t that up to them? I agree we should not force people to do it but assuming that’s the case would you still have a problem with it?

    This seems no different than forcing me to wear a suit. I’m glad that’s over.

    Is anyone actually forced ?

    If Casino was genuinely pressured on this (as opposed to being oversensitive to others adopting the practice), then that's a problem with his workplace, not the culture.

    (FWIW, I've never bothered either, and don't care whether others do, or don't.)
    Nobody is forced. I've never deployed pronouns and nobody has even hinted that it would be appreciated. I see some people doing it performatively on LinkedIn and roll my eyes. I see other people do it on email signatures and thank them because it means I know what gender they are when the name is unclear for morons like me.

    Casino wants a war on pronouns because they are "woke" - thats all. And we know what "woke" means when it is deployed in anger...
    Life's too short. I'm happy to address everyone with whatever pronouns suit them. I mean we all knew LadyG wasn't really a lady.
    Are you suggesting her posts on that subject were Byronic?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,499
    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,334
    AnneJGP said:

    Interesting times we live in. A coalescence of international trade is occurring before our very eyes - one which is going to include China and not include America.

    The moron fodder in the US are being told to shout and scream that MAGA will MAGA (cf Brexit means Brexit). That the inferior foreigners are being brought into line and into their place - subjects of the Great America. That tariffs will bring not only manufacturing to the US but that US made goods will be global.

    That the reality is so starkly opposite presents challenges. The US would need to remove Trump and publicly disown him for global former partners to trust them - and we all know that isn't about to happen.

    And so we have countries seeking to understand exactly what Murica is doing. Trump then screams SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT because the Japanese are here to kiss the ring. But no ring is kissed and they depart.

    A world with an isolationist America propagandising its population whilst the world gets on with business without it. Interesting times indeed.

    It troubles me that the UK and US are apparently close to a trade deal. What's the point in doing any deal when we all know the US will pocket its gains and renege on its commitments?

    I'd much prefer us not to make any commitments at all at this stage.
    Maybe, maybe not.

    Worth noting that all the ‘a US trade deal is close’ news is coming (afaics) from US sources.

    https://bsky.app/profile/columnist.bsky.social/post/3lmyimmgiz22u

    It's not obvious that there's much of a landing space for much of a mutually acceptable deal. Neither side is likely to concede its position on agriculture.

    But DJT is desperate to talk about deals, because he makes the best deals and it's the only way out of his self-dug hole.

    And the UK can't say no to a deal because it undermines the country's stated policy in a way that opens many cans of worms to do with you-know-what.

    So the talk continues with remarkably little action.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,441
    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You did use several pronouns in that last post. Do you mean, 'we don't sign our emails with our preferred pronouns?'

    Nobody has ever forced me to put my preferred pronouns on emails either, although TBF I am my own boss now so it seems unlikely anyone ever would.

    In a way that's disappointing, because I would ask to be called 'Lord High Executioner.'

    Sounds much better than 'Chief Executive' and goes with a very catchy G+S number.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,602

    AnneJGP said:

    Interesting times we live in. A coalescence of international trade is occurring before our very eyes - one which is going to include China and not include America.

    The moron fodder in the US are being told to shout and scream that MAGA will MAGA (cf Brexit means Brexit). That the inferior foreigners are being brought into line and into their place - subjects of the Great America. That tariffs will bring not only manufacturing to the US but that US made goods will be global.

    That the reality is so starkly opposite presents challenges. The US would need to remove Trump and publicly disown him for global former partners to trust them - and we all know that isn't about to happen.

    And so we have countries seeking to understand exactly what Murica is doing. Trump then screams SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT because the Japanese are here to kiss the ring. But no ring is kissed and they depart.

    A world with an isolationist America propagandising its population whilst the world gets on with business without it. Interesting times indeed.

    It troubles me that the UK and US are apparently close to a trade deal. What's the point in doing any deal when we all know the US will pocket its gains and renege on its commitments?

    I'd much prefer us not to make any commitments at all at this stage.
    Maybe, maybe not.

    Worth noting that all the ‘a US trade deal is close’ news is coming (afaics) from US sources.

    https://bsky.app/profile/columnist.bsky.social/post/3lmyimmgiz22u

    It's not obvious that there's much of a landing space for much of a mutually acceptable deal. Neither side is likely to concede its position on agriculture.

    But DJT is desperate to talk about deals, because he makes the best deals and it's the only way out of his self-dug hole.

    And the UK can't say no to a deal because it undermines the country's stated policy in a way that opens many cans of worms to do with you-know-what.

    So the talk continues with remarkably little action.
    This is one hint about the state of play.

    UK officials label trade documents ‘secret’ to shield from US eyes amid Trump tariff war
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/apr/16/uk-officials-trade-documents-secret-trump-tariff-security
  • eekeek Posts: 29,704
    nico67 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump’s nominee to run the IRS, Representative Billy Long, just had a six-figure debt paid off by campaign donors, all of whom happen to have tax issues with the IRS.
    https://x.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1912680089730359408

    The corruption is astonishing . And it’s in full view .
    Isn’t that part of Trumps design - look the person I’m appointing has the same issues you have so it’s going to be fixed
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,602
    While we're waiting for viewcode's essay on moral philosophy, here's a novel solution to the trolley problem.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-N_RZJUAQY4
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,499
    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You did use several pronouns in that last post. Do you mean, 'we don't sign our emails with our preferred pronouns?'

    Nobody has ever forced me to put my preferred pronouns on emails either, although TBF I am my own boss now so it seems unlikely anyone ever would.

    In a way that's disappointing, because I would ask to be called 'Lord High Executioner.'

    Sounds much better than 'Chief Executive' and goes with a very catchy G+S number.
    Dear Lord High Commissioner,

    You are a pedant.

    Yours

    kjh (thing)

    PS What is a G+S number?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,844
    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You are a despicable liar. "Everyone is passively pressured to do that, and comply with gender identity ideology, on pain of otherwise being accused of being a bigot."

    Its true. You're in denial. Everyone has to do it. Even on here.

    Ian
    (He/Him)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,441
    kjh said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You did use several pronouns in that last post. Do you mean, 'we don't sign our emails with our preferred pronouns?'

    Nobody has ever forced me to put my preferred pronouns on emails either, although TBF I am my own boss now so it seems unlikely anyone ever would.

    In a way that's disappointing, because I would ask to be called 'Lord High Executioner.'

    Sounds much better than 'Chief Executive' and goes with a very catchy G+S number.
    Dear Lord High Commissioner,

    You are a pedant.

    Yours

    kjh (thing)

    PS What is a G+S number?
    Oi! Lord High Executioner, please.

    https://youtu.be/ivY2HK777Zg?si=EyoKGckapeThWSsD
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,947
    I don't think these numbers have changed much from before Trump, the UK trades more with the EU than US after all.

    The UK already has a Free Trade Agreement with the EU too unlike with the USA
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,468
    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,844

    AnneJGP said:

    Interesting times we live in. A coalescence of international trade is occurring before our very eyes - one which is going to include China and not include America.

    The moron fodder in the US are being told to shout and scream that MAGA will MAGA (cf Brexit means Brexit). That the inferior foreigners are being brought into line and into their place - subjects of the Great America. That tariffs will bring not only manufacturing to the US but that US made goods will be global.

    That the reality is so starkly opposite presents challenges. The US would need to remove Trump and publicly disown him for global former partners to trust them - and we all know that isn't about to happen.

    And so we have countries seeking to understand exactly what Murica is doing. Trump then screams SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT because the Japanese are here to kiss the ring. But no ring is kissed and they depart.

    A world with an isolationist America propagandising its population whilst the world gets on with business without it. Interesting times indeed.

    It troubles me that the UK and US are apparently close to a trade deal. What's the point in doing any deal when we all know the US will pocket its gains and renege on its commitments?

    I'd much prefer us not to make any commitments at all at this stage.
    I genuinely doubt that we're anywhere close to a deal. Our government is not about to sign a "banned in the EU, allowed in the UK" deal which is what MAGA would insist on.

    On Tuesday I met with a major American retailer who operates at scale in the UK. Despite their business being very US based in their outlook and philosophy, their UK buying managers are quite open that they cannot and will not look to just directly import foods from the US because "nobody buys them". They now want UKised versions made edible, something that even their "buy global" strategy has learned to accept.

    There will be no trade deal where we get weevil-infested rice and Chlorinated chicken and ADHD-inducing additives rammed down our throats. Not only would that imperil any prospects we have of securing our trade with our major partner over the channel, British consumers simply won't buy that shit.

    And this is what baffles and annoys America. The Greatest Country In The World. Period. So why don't people want to eat our food and buy our trucks? Why? Because they're shit, that's why.
    Too low a quality AND too high a price.
    I ran a project for part of BigClientGroup, investigating whether there was an opportunity to import CornDogs on sticks. Authentic Murica product, which we could sell in UK frozen food retailers to compete against their inauthentic Murica-style products.

    Even if you found a way to get past the ingredients deck which is both illegal and off putting to even a Farm Foods shopper, there was a basic problem - price.

    US food is expensive. Bizarrely so when its high processed and full of good old boy additives. Then you have to ship it across the Atlantic. Then you need to repack or relabel because US food packaging is no good here.

    By the time you've done all that the food would need to retail for £no.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,441

    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph

    Is he so stupid he doesn't know Jaguar are not making cars at the moment?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,246

    AnneJGP said:

    Interesting times we live in. A coalescence of international trade is occurring before our very eyes - one which is going to include China and not include America.

    The moron fodder in the US are being told to shout and scream that MAGA will MAGA (cf Brexit means Brexit). That the inferior foreigners are being brought into line and into their place - subjects of the Great America. That tariffs will bring not only manufacturing to the US but that US made goods will be global.

    That the reality is so starkly opposite presents challenges. The US would need to remove Trump and publicly disown him for global former partners to trust them - and we all know that isn't about to happen.

    And so we have countries seeking to understand exactly what Murica is doing. Trump then screams SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT because the Japanese are here to kiss the ring. But no ring is kissed and they depart.

    A world with an isolationist America propagandising its population whilst the world gets on with business without it. Interesting times indeed.

    It troubles me that the UK and US are apparently close to a trade deal. What's the point in doing any deal when we all know the US will pocket its gains and renege on its commitments?

    I'd much prefer us not to make any commitments at all at this stage.
    Maybe, maybe not.

    Worth noting that all the ‘a US trade deal is close’ news is coming (afaics) from US sources.

    https://bsky.app/profile/columnist.bsky.social/post/3lmyimmgiz22u

    It's not obvious that there's much of a landing space for much of a mutually acceptable deal. Neither side is likely to concede its position on agriculture.

    But DJT is desperate to talk about deals, because he makes the best deals and it's the only way out of his self-dug hole.

    And the UK can't say no to a deal because it undermines the country's stated policy in a way that opens many cans of worms to do with you-know-what.

    So the talk continues with remarkably little action.
    BF should run markets for a UK-US trade deal to complete in each year. Never going to happen but always talked up.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,468
    edited April 17

    AnneJGP said:

    Interesting times we live in. A coalescence of international trade is occurring before our very eyes - one which is going to include China and not include America.

    The moron fodder in the US are being told to shout and scream that MAGA will MAGA (cf Brexit means Brexit). That the inferior foreigners are being brought into line and into their place - subjects of the Great America. That tariffs will bring not only manufacturing to the US but that US made goods will be global.

    That the reality is so starkly opposite presents challenges. The US would need to remove Trump and publicly disown him for global former partners to trust them - and we all know that isn't about to happen.

    And so we have countries seeking to understand exactly what Murica is doing. Trump then screams SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT because the Japanese are here to kiss the ring. But no ring is kissed and they depart.

    A world with an isolationist America propagandising its population whilst the world gets on with business without it. Interesting times indeed.

    It troubles me that the UK and US are apparently close to a trade deal. What's the point in doing any deal when we all know the US will pocket its gains and renege on its commitments?

    I'd much prefer us not to make any commitments at all at this stage.
    I genuinely doubt that we're anywhere close to a deal. Our government is not about to sign a "banned in the EU, allowed in the UK" deal which is what MAGA would insist on.

    On Tuesday I met with a major American retailer who operates at scale in the UK. Despite their business being very US based in their outlook and philosophy, their UK buying managers are quite open that they cannot and will not look to just directly import foods from the US because "nobody buys them". They now want UKised versions made edible, something that even their "buy global" strategy has learned to accept.

    There will be no trade deal where we get weevil-infested rice and Chlorinated chicken and ADHD-inducing additives rammed down our throats. Not only would that imperil any prospects we have of securing our trade with our major partner over the channel, British consumers simply won't buy that shit.

    And this is what baffles and annoys America. The Greatest Country In The World. Period. So why don't people want to eat our food and buy our trucks? Why? Because they're shit, that's why.
    Too low a quality AND too high a price.
    Like all the forthcoming trade deals I suspect ours will take things back to exactly where they were four or so weeks and Trump will declare it the greatest trade deal in history and MAGA will go wild with joy etc etc.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,599
    Lots of reverse ferrets from labour after the excellent verdict at the Supreme Court. Thankfully people have the receipts.

    https://x.com/oeogovuk/status/1912525975750852646?s=61
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,326
    Nigelb said:

    While we're waiting for viewcode's essay on moral philosophy, here's a novel solution to the trolley problem.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-N_RZJUAQY4

    That's excellent.

    A few months ago, we asked our son if he wanted to watch "The Good Place" with us. We explained what it was about, and he was not keen. We 'encouraged' him to watch the first episode, after which he was hooked and we binge watched the entire thing.

    I'm unsure if he's learnt any moral philosophy from it, but he learnt enough to laugh at that video...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,947

    Scott_xP said:

    @afneil

    Donald Trump has become a recruiting sergeant for the Left in other countries.
    In Canada his threats about making it the 51st have single-handedly revived the fortunes of the left-leaning Liberal party under Mark Carney. The right-wing alternative, who had a 20-point poll lead when Trump came to power, has seen that lead evaporate because he’s regarded as too much like Trump.
    In Australia the incumbent Labour Party has been given a boost by Trump and the unimpressive Anthony Albanese now looks like being re-elected — partly because his right-wing challenger Peter Dutton is also seen as too Trumpy (even if he’s not).
    Which puts Nigel Farage in an interesting position. His Reform party has become the change-maker of British politics. But if he wants to continue in that vein I suspect he’ll be distancing himself from Trump. Perhaps he already is.

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1912751864140939518

    Romania may be a counter example, with Trumpist candidates polling well in the presidential race.
    Trump is most popular in Eastern Europe
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,208
    Some excellent buy British advice from Kemi.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/DIgkBUboZqH/?igsh=MWZrYjI5cWx6MzBtMA==
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,499
    edited April 17
    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You did use several pronouns in that last post. Do you mean, 'we don't sign our emails with our preferred pronouns?'

    Nobody has ever forced me to put my preferred pronouns on emails either, although TBF I am my own boss now so it seems unlikely anyone ever would.

    In a way that's disappointing, because I would ask to be called 'Lord High Executioner.'

    Sounds much better than 'Chief Executive' and goes with a very catchy G+S number.
    Dear Lord High Commissioner,

    You are a pedant.

    Yours

    kjh (thing)

    PS What is a G+S number?
    Oi! Lord High Executioner, please.

    https://youtu.be/ivY2HK777Zg?si=EyoKGckapeThWSsD
    Whoops, sorry Lord High Executioner. I don't know what happened.

    Yours kjh (it)
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,080
    Trump supporters in the UK don’t seem to care that he’s attacking UK jobs with his tariffs . And they call themselves so called patriots . And anyone who believes Farages incarnation to working class hero must be a total imbecile with the brain capacity of a fruit fly !
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,208
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @afneil

    Donald Trump has become a recruiting sergeant for the Left in other countries.
    In Canada his threats about making it the 51st have single-handedly revived the fortunes of the left-leaning Liberal party under Mark Carney. The right-wing alternative, who had a 20-point poll lead when Trump came to power, has seen that lead evaporate because he’s regarded as too much like Trump.
    In Australia the incumbent Labour Party has been given a boost by Trump and the unimpressive Anthony Albanese now looks like being re-elected — partly because his right-wing challenger Peter Dutton is also seen as too Trumpy (even if he’s not).
    Which puts Nigel Farage in an interesting position. His Reform party has become the change-maker of British politics. But if he wants to continue in that vein I suspect he’ll be distancing himself from Trump. Perhaps he already is.

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1912751864140939518

    Romania may be a counter example, with Trumpist candidates polling well in the presidential race.
    Trump is most popular in Eastern Europe
    Not in Ukraine and the Baltic States he's not.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,285
    R4's Today programme has its (limited) uses. Not heard of this book or its author, but will definitely be ordering it.

    https://persephonebooks.co.uk/products/crooked-cross

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,246
    For those with a digital Telegraph subscription they can be reduced from £199 to £29 with a phone call to exit. (have to suffer some terrible muzak though).
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,110

    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph

    Are we saying he is wrong? In the days of wildcat strikes in the car industry, one thing Red Robbo got right and Mrs Thatcher got wrong was the need to invest, not cut, if the industry was to survive and compete with the likes of VW and Nissan. What's left? Some German-owned luxury brands and Chinese badges.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,985
    Taz said:

    Lots of reverse ferrets from labour after the excellent verdict at the Supreme Court. Thankfully people have the receipts.

    https://x.com/oeogovuk/status/1912525975750852646?s=61

    The SC judgment just said what the SC thought was the meaning of parliamentary legislation. It offered no views on right and wrong and what government policy should be.

    Government is hiding behind the SC by saying it clarifies the law - thank you very much. Almost as if it wants someone else to decide the rights and wrongs of a mostly incomprehensible row between two branches of liberal and high minded feminists. Surely not!

    Footnote: In the SC case Amnesty International made themselves an intervening party. This is a sad decline from their traditional role as the one outfit that keeps on taking an interest in folks like North Koreans rotting away their enslaved lives in obscure tortured imprisonment.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,334
    edited April 17

    For those with a digital Telegraph subscription they can be reduced from £199 to £29 with a phone call to exit. (have to suffer some terrible muzak though).

    I know why it happens, I probably benefit from it, yada yada...

    But any party that can stop that sort of taking-the-piss haggling gets my vote.

    Even the Liberal Democrats.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,246

    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph

    Are we saying he is wrong? In the days of wildcat strikes in the car industry, one thing Red Robbo got right and Mrs Thatcher got wrong was the need to invest, not cut, if the industry was to survive and compete with the likes of VW and Nissan. What's left? Some German-owned luxury brands and Chinese badges.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exports_of_the_United_Kingdom

    Cars were number 1 as recently as 2019.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,602
    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You did use several pronouns in that last post. Do you mean, 'we don't sign our emails with our preferred pronouns?'

    Nobody has ever forced me to put my preferred pronouns on emails either, although TBF I am my own boss now so it seems unlikely anyone ever would.

    In a way that's disappointing, because I would ask to be called 'Lord High Executioner.'

    Sounds much better than 'Chief Executive' and goes with a very catchy G+S number.
    Dear Lord High Commissioner,

    You are a pedant.

    Yours

    kjh (thing)

    PS What is a G+S number?
    Oi! Lord High Executioner, please.

    https://youtu.be/ivY2HK777Zg?si=EyoKGckapeThWSsD
    Pish and Pooh.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,441
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You did use several pronouns in that last post. Do you mean, 'we don't sign our emails with our preferred pronouns?'

    Nobody has ever forced me to put my preferred pronouns on emails either, although TBF I am my own boss now so it seems unlikely anyone ever would.

    In a way that's disappointing, because I would ask to be called 'Lord High Executioner.'

    Sounds much better than 'Chief Executive' and goes with a very catchy G+S number.
    Dear Lord High Commissioner,

    You are a pedant.

    Yours

    kjh (thing)

    PS What is a G+S number?
    Oi! Lord High Executioner, please.

    https://youtu.be/ivY2HK777Zg?si=EyoKGckapeThWSsD
    Pish and Pooh.
    Bah.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,110

    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph

    Manufacturing is about 8% of GDP for the UK, versus 10% of the United States. On some measures, the UK has a larger industrial base than the US, particularly after PPP, and we have more employment in that sector too.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,110

    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph

    Are we saying he is wrong? In the days of wildcat strikes in the car industry, one thing Red Robbo got right and Mrs Thatcher got wrong was the need to invest, not cut, if the industry was to survive and compete with the likes of VW and Nissan. What's left? Some German-owned luxury brands and Chinese badges.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exports_of_the_United_Kingdom

    Cars were number 1 as recently as 2019.
    Yes, I know there is a car industry in Britain, but is there a British car industry?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,602
    edited April 17
    This is a fascinating list.
    While it's obviously skewed by name recognition, it doesn't say much for the chances of centrist pragmatists like Shapiro for the nomination in 2028.

    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1912639526985691206
    Among Dems - Net Favorables:

    Obama: +84%
    Harris: +79%
    Sanders: +76%
    Walz: +72%
    Booker: +71%

    AOC: +69%
    Warren: +68%
    Buttigieg: +68%
    Biden: +66%
    Clinton: +60%
    Klobuchar: +60%
    Stewart: +60%

    Whitmer: +51%
    Crockett: +50%
    Warnock: +49%
    Cuban: +47%
    Newsom: +45%
    Beshear: +34%
    Murphy: +32%

    Shapiro: +29%
    Pritzker: +27%
    Moore: +23%
    Fain: +5%
    Fetterman: +3%
    A. Smith: -3%

    Data For Progress / Apr 14, 2025 / n=745

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,602
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You did use several pronouns in that last post. Do you mean, 'we don't sign our emails with our preferred pronouns?'

    Nobody has ever forced me to put my preferred pronouns on emails either, although TBF I am my own boss now so it seems unlikely anyone ever would.

    In a way that's disappointing, because I would ask to be called 'Lord High Executioner.'

    Sounds much better than 'Chief Executive' and goes with a very catchy G+S number.
    Dear Lord High Commissioner,

    You are a pedant.

    Yours

    kjh (thing)

    PS What is a G+S number?
    Oi! Lord High Executioner, please.

    https://youtu.be/ivY2HK777Zg?si=EyoKGckapeThWSsD
    Pish and Pooh.
    Bah.
    We know our wand'ring minstrel, of course.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,787

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You are a despicable liar. "Everyone is passively pressured to do that, and comply with gender identity ideology, on pain of otherwise being accused of being a bigot."

    Its true. You're in denial. Everyone has to do it. Even on here.

    Ian
    (He/Him)
    Right, I've done a 10-minute very non-scientific study of my inbox.

    - The majority of people in my organisation have pronouns in their email signatures. However, the incidence of people not using pronouns is probably higher than I'd imagined.
    - Interestingly, a similar scan through a random sample (this week, three years ago) seems to suggest fewer pronouns than a few years ago.
    - That said, this is difficult to evaluate fully because, also possibly interestingly, there are far more emails without signatures at all
    - It's hard to tell objectively to what extent we have been 'pressured' - certainly I remember emails from HR asking us to add pronouns to signatures, though this is hard to dig out with a simple search of the word 'pronoun' because the word 'pronoun' features in the signature of so many emails - but clearly many people such as me haven't: this isn't necessarily a principled objection, but could equally well be reluctance to do a very low-priority admin task
    - external emails from other public sector organisations are also majoritavely pronouned
    - external emails from people trying to sell things to the public sector through spam are almost entirely pronouned
    - external emails from consultants (and - while I don't know who @Casino_Royale is in real life, I think I know what industry he works in - and particularly from consultants his industry) are almost entirely pronouned.
    - external emails from the general public almost entirely unpronouned.

    However, I'm perfectly willing to believe e.g. Foxy that he rarely sees pronouns. Maybe we're all telling the truth and it varies from industry to industry.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,985
    kjh said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You did use several pronouns in that last post. Do you mean, 'we don't sign our emails with our preferred pronouns?'

    Nobody has ever forced me to put my preferred pronouns on emails either, although TBF I am my own boss now so it seems unlikely anyone ever would.

    In a way that's disappointing, because I would ask to be called 'Lord High Executioner.'

    Sounds much better than 'Chief Executive' and goes with a very catchy G+S number.
    Dear Lord High Commissioner,

    You are a pedant.

    Yours

    kjh (thing)

    PS What is a G+S number?
    Gin and soda (it's a thing). Gilbert and Sullivan.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,298
    ydoethur said:

    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph

    Is he so stupid he doesn't know Jaguar are not making cars at the moment?
    Sure they are. F-Pace is still in production on the Solihull line. I mean, nobody is buying the fucking thing but they are still building it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,468
    I haven't followed all the twists and turns in this ultimate Supreme Court decision, but it has left me wondering whether a test case at the Court should have resolved things much earlier.
  • CollegeCollege Posts: 82
    edited April 17
    Pronouns are totally pah if one has to choose from an official list. The only thing I know of Elon Musk ever saying that was remotely witty was when he declared that his own preferred pronouns were prosecute/Fauci.

    They also seem to come in official pairs, so what's the point of quoting an entire pair? Is there some objection to she/him? If it absolutely must be she/her, he/him, or they/them, why not just specify the nominative (or "subjective" for pedants)?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,246

    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph

    Are we saying he is wrong? In the days of wildcat strikes in the car industry, one thing Red Robbo got right and Mrs Thatcher got wrong was the need to invest, not cut, if the industry was to survive and compete with the likes of VW and Nissan. What's left? Some German-owned luxury brands and Chinese badges.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exports_of_the_United_Kingdom

    Cars were number 1 as recently as 2019.
    Yes, I know there is a car industry in Britain, but is there a British car industry?
    Does that really matter? Most of us hold our wealth in either property or some of global equity (whether wrapped in pension/ISA, funds, trackers or direct) rather than UK equity. If there was a big UK car manufacturer, Vanguard et al would probably (indirectly) direct me to hold slightly more of it than I do in Korean/German/US manufacturer, but not significantly so.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,246

    For those with a digital Telegraph subscription they can be reduced from £199 to £29 with a phone call to exit. (have to suffer some terrible muzak though).

    For those with a digital Telegraph subscription, they can be reduced to £0 by cancelling, and then you don’t have to suffer reading the Telegraph.
    They have quite good sports coverage still.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,502
    Life on another planet? Looking good....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c39jj9vkr34o

    It's only seven hundred trillion miles away from us.

    Trump: "So you mean we can see if they will hold our prisoners there instead of El Salvador? Supreme Court ain't ever getting them back from THERE..."
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,076

    (1/5)

    I’ve worked for three very large telecoms companies and not once have I ever felt the need to put my pronouns on an email. I never have and never will as I can’t personally see the point.

    But if somebody wants to, isn’t that up to them? I agree we should not force people to do it but assuming that’s the case would you still have a problem with it?

    This seems no different than forcing me to wear a suit. I’m glad that’s over.

    They can stick their pronouns up their butts, I use name or him / her, rest of the bollox they can get stuffed.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,771

    AnneJGP said:

    Foxy said:

    (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.

    Reform are just being Populist. Farage used to be Thatcherite and cheered the Kamikwase budget under Truss, yet now supports steel renationalisation.

    It's just typical opportunism. Labour has a big problem though. Staking everything on deliverism means they have to deliver, and so far they are not doing so. Voters are not usually known for their patience.
    It may well be opportunism, but in the case of steel renationalisation perhaps it isn't. AIUI, the steelworks was purchased by a Chinese company (which British companies were competing?) and hindsight is suggesting that was a bad move for national security reasons. So the steelworks needs to be bought back, but there is now/still no British company willing to take it on.

    The government in that case is a purchaser of last resort. In my view that isn't the same thing as being in favour of (re)nationalisation in principle.
    The bigger picture which Labour can't get their heads around is that these privately-owned businesses operate assets which represent Britain's strategic national security interests.

    At the very least we need to tightly regulate them. And if that fails bring them back in house. Thames Water is the obvious candidate alongside British Steel. And yet neither have been repossessed because Treasury orthodoxy states that debt would then become public and what does that mean for our calculations?

    Who cares? When we moved house the last thing I added on was nearly £3k for a new TV. A lot of money - but small compared to the move costs. Reeves calculations have already been swept away by events - twice. And they've been in office for 10 months. So what does it matter?

    Key to this is secure the asset and start saving money. In the case of Thames Water because of the appalling mismanagement and lack of grasp on costs there are big savings to be made by taking over. In the case of BS it needs to be kept operational and the owner was about to shut it. A very small change in the state of the national debt to save a whole load more money later.
    They are very different situations in my opinion. Water companies can be run profitably - Thames Water is in trouble because it has been badly run. It should be allowed to go bust, at the expense of its investors, who have done very nicely off it up till now, and took a commercial risk. When it goes bust, there will be plenty of other companies willing to take it on without the debt of the defunct company.

    Steel is a widely different matter. It is (like water) a vital national resource, but it will struggle to be run profitably with our ridiculous disordered economy. I think the Government needs to guarantee its future for the time being until it can be run commercially, and probably thereafter ensure it remains in British hands. They also need to get that coal mine built, probably by bypassing the planning process for reasons of national security. We cannot keep the process of making virgin steel in the UK as a security measure, yet have the fuel we need to keep it burning coming from overseas. That makes zero sense - the Japanese coal can only ever be a stop-gap.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,165

    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph

    Are we saying he is wrong? In the days of wildcat strikes in the car industry, one thing Red Robbo got right and Mrs Thatcher got wrong was the need to invest, not cut, if the industry was to survive and compete with the likes of VW and Nissan. What's left? Some German-owned luxury brands and Chinese badges.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exports_of_the_United_Kingdom

    Cars were number 1 as recently as 2019.
    The problem was trying to preserve the existing *companies*.

    Thatcher worked very hard to bring various foreign car manufacturers to the U.K.

    Where they found they could produce excellent cars, at reasonable prices, with little industrial strife.

    Very often the people (labour and management) were the same individuals who had worked in the slow motion crash that was the British car industry.

    Once an organisation has got that toxic, a new start is often better.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,499
    edited April 17
    Cookie said:

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You are a despicable liar. "Everyone is passively pressured to do that, and comply with gender identity ideology, on pain of otherwise being accused of being a bigot."

    Its true. You're in denial. Everyone has to do it. Even on here.

    Ian
    (He/Him)
    Right, I've done a 10-minute very non-scientific study of my inbox.

    - The majority of people in my organisation have pronouns in their email signatures. However, the incidence of people not using pronouns is probably higher than I'd imagined.
    - Interestingly, a similar scan through a random sample (this week, three years ago) seems to suggest fewer pronouns than a few years ago.
    - That said, this is difficult to evaluate fully because, also possibly interestingly, there are far more emails without signatures at all
    - It's hard to tell objectively to what extent we have been 'pressured' - certainly I remember emails from HR asking us to add pronouns to signatures, though this is hard to dig out with a simple search of the word 'pronoun' because the word 'pronoun' features in the signature of so many emails - but clearly many people such as me haven't: this isn't necessarily a principled objection, but could equally well be reluctance to do a very low-priority admin task
    - external emails from other public sector organisations are also majoritavely pronouned
    - external emails from people trying to sell things to the public sector through spam are almost entirely pronouned
    - external emails from consultants (and - while I don't know who @Casino_Royale is in real life, I think I know what industry he works in - and particularly from consultants his industry) are almost entirely pronouned.
    - external emails from the general public almost entirely unpronouned.

    However, I'm perfectly willing to believe e.g. Foxy that he rarely sees pronouns. Maybe we're all telling the truth and it varies from industry to industry.
    Interesting, because my list was from a wide variety of public sector and private sector from the last couple of weeks. I obviously didn't count generic stuff that didn't have a person's name. Not a single pronoun where someone signed off with their name. Not one. I am involved in a campaign where I get or am copied in on a lot of emails from MPs. Again not one had a pronoun next to the name of the MP. On the contrary most these days have become more informal as if I know them personally.

    As far as prior to that I can't be sure obviously, but it struck me when I had an email from Daisy Cooper (generic, not just to me) where she did use (she/her) and because of that I noticed it, which sort of implies if someone else had done so I would have noticed that also. It struck me because it was the first time I had seen it, rather than hearing about it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,602
    The man who RFK Jr. just hired to run his autism study

    1) Doesn't have a medical degree
    2) Ran experiments where he injected autistic children with a puberty-blocking drug
    3) Was fined $10,000 by the state of Maryland for doing all this without a medical license

    https://x.com/ZaidJilani/status/1912600367805993081
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,459
    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Lots of reverse ferrets from labour after the excellent verdict at the Supreme Court. Thankfully people have the receipts.

    https://x.com/oeogovuk/status/1912525975750852646?s=61

    The SC judgment just said what the SC thought was the meaning of parliamentary legislation. It offered no views on right and wrong and what government policy should be.

    Government is hiding behind the SC by saying it clarifies the law - thank you very much. Almost as if it wants someone else to decide the rights and wrongs of a mostly incomprehensible row between two branches of liberal and high minded feminists. Surely not!

    Footnote: In the SC case Amnesty International made themselves an intervening party. This is a sad decline from their traditional role as the one outfit that keeps on taking an interest in folks like North Koreans rotting away their enslaved lives in obscure tortured imprisonment.
    Entirely agree but of course some of those with strongly held views on this regard it in more adversarial terms and needless to say the whole thing has become politicised and weaponised as another bunch of what some people called "fertiliser" to throw at your opponents for being on the wrong side of the judgment.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,110

    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph

    Are we saying he is wrong? In the days of wildcat strikes in the car industry, one thing Red Robbo got right and Mrs Thatcher got wrong was the need to invest, not cut, if the industry was to survive and compete with the likes of VW and Nissan. What's left? Some German-owned luxury brands and Chinese badges.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exports_of_the_United_Kingdom

    Cars were number 1 as recently as 2019.
    Yes, I know there is a car industry in Britain, but is there a British car industry?
    Does that really matter? Most of us hold our wealth in either property or some of global equity (whether wrapped in pension/ISA, funds, trackers or direct) rather than UK equity. If there was a big UK car manufacturer, Vanguard et al would probably (indirectly) direct me to hold slightly more of it than I do in Korean/German/US manufacturer, but not significantly so.
    Ownership matters for the real economy even if not for the City. It determines priorities for investment when things go well, and closure when things go badly, and whether profits stay in Britain or disappear overseas which effects both the tax base and our balance of payments.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,787
    kjh said:

    Cookie said:

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You are a despicable liar. "Everyone is passively pressured to do that, and comply with gender identity ideology, on pain of otherwise being accused of being a bigot."

    Its true. You're in denial. Everyone has to do it. Even on here.

    Ian
    (He/Him)
    Right, I've done a 10-minute very non-scientific study of my inbox.

    - The majority of people in my organisation have pronouns in their email signatures. However, the incidence of people not using pronouns is probably higher than I'd imagined.
    - Interestingly, a similar scan through a random sample (this week, three years ago) seems to suggest fewer pronouns than a few years ago.
    - That said, this is difficult to evaluate fully because, also possibly interestingly, there are far more emails without signatures at all
    - It's hard to tell objectively to what extent we have been 'pressured' - certainly I remember emails from HR asking us to add pronouns to signatures, though this is hard to dig out with a simple search of the word 'pronoun' because the word 'pronoun' features in the signature of so many emails - but clearly many people such as me haven't: this isn't necessarily a principled objection, but could equally well be reluctance to do a very low-priority admin task
    - external emails from other public sector organisations are also majoritavely pronouned
    - external emails from people trying to sell things to the public sector through spam are almost entirely pronouned
    - external emails from consultants (and - while I don't know who @Casino_Royale is in real life, I think I know what industry he works in - and particularly from consultants his industry) are almost entirely pronouned.
    - external emails from the general public almost entirely unpronouned.

    However, I'm perfectly willing to believe e.g. Foxy that he rarely sees pronouns. Maybe we're all telling the truth and it varies from industry to industry.
    Interesting, because my list was from a wide variety of public sector and private sector from the last couple of weeks. I obviously didn't count generic stuff that didn't have a person's name. Not a single pronoun where someone signed off with their name. Not one. I am involved in a campaign where I get or am copied in on a lot of emails from MPs. Again not one had a pronoun next to the name of the MP. On the contrary most these days have become more informal as if I know them personally.

    As far as prior to that I can't be sure obviously, but it struck me when I had an email from Daisy Cooper (generic, not just to me) where she did use (she/her) and because of that I noticed it, which sort of implies if someone else had done so I would have noticed that also. It struck me because it was the first time I had seen it, rather than hearing about it.
    It's worth noting that almost all pronouns appear in email signatures, along with company name, address, phone number, 'please do not print this email unless you have to', etc - no-one actually types them out when signing off each time.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,947

    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph

    He is not wrong though
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,459
    kjh said:

    Cookie said:

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You are a despicable liar. "Everyone is passively pressured to do that, and comply with gender identity ideology, on pain of otherwise being accused of being a bigot."

    Its true. You're in denial. Everyone has to do it. Even on here.

    Ian
    (He/Him)
    Right, I've done a 10-minute very non-scientific study of my inbox.

    - The majority of people in my organisation have pronouns in their email signatures. However, the incidence of people not using pronouns is probably higher than I'd imagined.
    - Interestingly, a similar scan through a random sample (this week, three years ago) seems to suggest fewer pronouns than a few years ago.
    - That said, this is difficult to evaluate fully because, also possibly interestingly, there are far more emails without signatures at all
    - It's hard to tell objectively to what extent we have been 'pressured' - certainly I remember emails from HR asking us to add pronouns to signatures, though this is hard to dig out with a simple search of the word 'pronoun' because the word 'pronoun' features in the signature of so many emails - but clearly many people such as me haven't: this isn't necessarily a principled objection, but could equally well be reluctance to do a very low-priority admin task
    - external emails from other public sector organisations are also majoritavely pronouned
    - external emails from people trying to sell things to the public sector through spam are almost entirely pronouned
    - external emails from consultants (and - while I don't know who @Casino_Royale is in real life, I think I know what industry he works in - and particularly from consultants his industry) are almost entirely pronouned.
    - external emails from the general public almost entirely unpronouned.

    However, I'm perfectly willing to believe e.g. Foxy that he rarely sees pronouns. Maybe we're all telling the truth and it varies from industry to industry.
    Interesting, because my list was from a wide variety of public sector and private sector from the last couple of weeks. I obviously didn't count generic stuff that didn't have a person's name. Not a single pronoun where someone signed off with their name. Not one. I am involved in a campaign where I get or am copied in on a lot of emails from MPs. Again not one had a pronoun next to the name of the MP. On the contrary most these days have become more informal as if I know them personally.

    As far as prior to that I can't be sure obviously, but it struck me when I had an email from Daisy Cooper (generic, not just to me) where she did use (she/her) and because of that I noticed it, which sort of implies if someone else had done so I would have noticed that also. It struck me because it was the first time I had seen it, rather than hearing about it.
    Others have said it so I'm just clogging up the thread (as usual) but if you are dealing with the public sector, using pronouns is a thing in your email signature. Within the public sector, it is very much a thing, indeed it is often mandated by the senior leadership of these organisations.

    I never had an issue with it at all - it's often a point of clarity and clarification to know how to refer to the person with whom you are dealing. Companies on the phone often ask me how I wish to be addressed and that's fine as well.

    If people wish to be referred to as "they/them" that's their right and I respect it. I can't know it in advance but if they tell me I know and it's something of which I have to be aware.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,494
    Foxy said:

    (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.

    Reform are just being Populist. Farage used to be Thatcherite and cheered the Kamikwase budget under Truss, yet now supports steel renationalisation.

    It's just typical opportunism. Labour has a big problem though. Staking everything on deliverism means they have to deliver, and so far they are not doing so. Voters are not usually known for their patience.
    It depends what you mean by patient. Voters can be very patient if they believe in the goal and think the government is likely to achieve it at some point in the future, even that future is fairly distant - see e.g. the Second World War, the Conservative general election victory in 1992 despite the 1990-1 recession, etc.

    When they don't show patience is when the government is clearly out of its depth, has no credible plan and in fact devotes most of its attention to making matters worse. See the current farrago of incompetence and cluelessness.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,557
    Good Morning ladies, gentlemen and self-describers.

    A piece from Zoe Williams in the Guardian this morning which made me laugh. Unkind, perhaps, but it did

    "Liz Truss has unveiled her new chapter, and if you can think of a better place for the madcap-economist former prime minister to do so than a cryptocurrency conference in Bedford, it would at the very least have to involve pirates or chimpanzees."
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,502
    malcolmg said:

    (1/5)

    I’ve worked for three very large telecoms companies and not once have I ever felt the need to put my pronouns on an email. I never have and never will as I can’t personally see the point.

    But if somebody wants to, isn’t that up to them? I agree we should not force people to do it but assuming that’s the case would you still have a problem with it?

    This seems no different than forcing me to wear a suit. I’m glad that’s over.

    They can stick their pronouns up their butts, I use name or him / her, rest of the bollox they can get stuffed.
    Never used pronouns. For me or for anybody else. Never had to.

    That's just the way it rolls down here in Devon.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,947
    Nigelb said:

    This is a fascinating list.
    While it's obviously skewed by name recognition, it doesn't say much for the chances of centrist pragmatists like Shapiro for the nomination in 2028.

    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1912639526985691206
    Among Dems - Net Favorables:

    Obama: +84%
    Harris: +79%
    Sanders: +76%
    Walz: +72%
    Booker: +71%

    AOC: +69%
    Warren: +68%
    Buttigieg: +68%
    Biden: +66%
    Clinton: +60%
    Klobuchar: +60%
    Stewart: +60%

    Whitmer: +51%
    Crockett: +50%
    Warnock: +49%
    Cuban: +47%
    Newsom: +45%
    Beshear: +34%
    Murphy: +32%

    Shapiro: +29%
    Pritzker: +27%
    Moore: +23%
    Fain: +5%
    Fetterman: +3%
    A. Smith: -3%

    Data For Progress / Apr 14, 2025 / n=745

    Good numbers for Walz, Buttigieg, AOC and Warren though.

    It will be the record of the Trump Vance administration that decides the 2028 election anyway not who the Democratic candidate is
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,246

    The Trump USA-UK charm offence latest:

    Steve Bannon: “You (Britain) don’t make anything anymore,”...Sure you guys make automobiles but it is nothing in the grand scheme of things. They’re kind of bespoke Jaguars and Aston Martins.”

    Telegraph

    Are we saying he is wrong? In the days of wildcat strikes in the car industry, one thing Red Robbo got right and Mrs Thatcher got wrong was the need to invest, not cut, if the industry was to survive and compete with the likes of VW and Nissan. What's left? Some German-owned luxury brands and Chinese badges.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exports_of_the_United_Kingdom

    Cars were number 1 as recently as 2019.
    Yes, I know there is a car industry in Britain, but is there a British car industry?
    Does that really matter? Most of us hold our wealth in either property or some of global equity (whether wrapped in pension/ISA, funds, trackers or direct) rather than UK equity. If there was a big UK car manufacturer, Vanguard et al would probably (indirectly) direct me to hold slightly more of it than I do in Korean/German/US manufacturer, but not significantly so.
    Ownership matters for the real economy even if not for the City. It determines priorities for investment when things go well, and closure when things go badly, and whether profits stay in Britain or disappear overseas which effects both the tax base and our balance of payments.
    I'm not particularly convinced. It maybe matters at the "nice to have" level but I don't think it is fundamental in the case of car manufacturing.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,502
    If we HAVE located life on one random planet, then statistically it must be all over the Universe. (So will say the Drake equation.)

    The idea of it just being us was always Humanoid Exceptionalism taken to the nth degree.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,557
    stodge said:

    kjh said:

    Cookie said:

    kjh said:

    Regarding the pronoun debate - I am bemused. I very rarely see pronouns shown, even from the public sector (contrary to claims) so I did a review of my emails where there was a personal sign off. Not one had a pronoun. They were from UCL, Royal Surrey Hospital, Doctor, Dentist, HMRC, DVLA, L&G, Standard Life, umpteen MPs.

    From memory I can only recall one use of a pronoun in the past in an email and that was from Daisy Cooper (she/her).

    Bizarrely it can be useful with unusual names. Even not so unusual names. My wife has a Scottish name that seems obviously female to me, but seems to confuse some and also being a Doctor her prefix of Dr does not help. So many assume she is male. So it could help. Not that she or I use pronouns.

    You are a despicable liar. "Everyone is passively pressured to do that, and comply with gender identity ideology, on pain of otherwise being accused of being a bigot."

    Its true. You're in denial. Everyone has to do it. Even on here.

    Ian
    (He/Him)
    Right, I've done a 10-minute very non-scientific study of my inbox.

    - The majority of people in my organisation have pronouns in their email signatures. However, the incidence of people not using pronouns is probably higher than I'd imagined.
    - Interestingly, a similar scan through a random sample (this week, three years ago) seems to suggest fewer pronouns than a few years ago.
    - That said, this is difficult to evaluate fully because, also possibly interestingly, there are far more emails without signatures at all
    - It's hard to tell objectively to what extent we have been 'pressured' - certainly I remember emails from HR asking us to add pronouns to signatures, though this is hard to dig out with a simple search of the word 'pronoun' because the word 'pronoun' features in the signature of so many emails - but clearly many people such as me haven't: this isn't necessarily a principled objection, but could equally well be reluctance to do a very low-priority admin task
    - external emails from other public sector organisations are also majoritavely pronouned
    - external emails from people trying to sell things to the public sector through spam are almost entirely pronouned
    - external emails from consultants (and - while I don't know who @Casino_Royale is in real life, I think I know what industry he works in - and particularly from consultants his industry) are almost entirely pronouned.
    - external emails from the general public almost entirely unpronouned.

    However, I'm perfectly willing to believe e.g. Foxy that he rarely sees pronouns. Maybe we're all telling the truth and it varies from industry to industry.
    Interesting, because my list was from a wide variety of public sector and private sector from the last couple of weeks. I obviously didn't count generic stuff that didn't have a person's name. Not a single pronoun where someone signed off with their name. Not one. I am involved in a campaign where I get or am copied in on a lot of emails from MPs. Again not one had a pronoun next to the name of the MP. On the contrary most these days have become more informal as if I know them personally.

    As far as prior to that I can't be sure obviously, but it struck me when I had an email from Daisy Cooper (generic, not just to me) where she did use (she/her) and because of that I noticed it, which sort of implies if someone else had done so I would have noticed that also. It struck me because it was the first time I had seen it, rather than hearing about it.
    Others have said it so I'm just clogging up the thread (as usual) but if you are dealing with the public sector, using pronouns is a thing in your email signature. Within the public sector, it is very much a thing, indeed it is often mandated by the senior leadership of these organisations.

    I never had an issue with it at all - it's often a point of clarity and clarification to know how to refer to the person with whom you are dealing. Companies on the phone often ask me how I wish to be addressed and that's fine as well.

    If people wish to be referred to as "they/them" that's their right and I respect it. I can't know it in advance but if they tell me I know and it's something of which I have to be aware.
    If people put their given names I usually use those, unless I want to be sarky or officious. Can be difficult with unusual names, like mine, or names which can be either sex. I've a distant relative called Leslie, and as far as I'm concerned that's a male spelling. However she's very definitely female. She's also American, so maybe it's another of their oddities.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,459
    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.

    Reform are just being Populist. Farage used to be Thatcherite and cheered the Kamikwase budget under Truss, yet now supports steel renationalisation.

    It's just typical opportunism. Labour has a big problem though. Staking everything on deliverism means they have to deliver, and so far they are not doing so. Voters are not usually known for their patience.
    It depends what you mean by patient. Voters can be very patient if they believe in the goal and think the government is likely to achieve it at some point in the future, even that future is fairly distant - see e.g. the Second World War, the Conservative general election victory in 1992 despite the 1990-1 recession, etc.

    When they don't show patience is when the government is clearly out of its depth, has no credible plan and in fact devotes most of its attention to making matters worse. See the current farrago of incompetence and cluelessness.
    As distinct from the "farrago of incompetence and cluelessness" from 2015-2024 - remember them?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,110

    AnneJGP said:

    Foxy said:

    (2/5)

    Farage is moving Reform firmly to the left at the movement. With its support of nationalisation and unions.

    But doesn’t it all come across a bit hollow? Why has Farage only changed his mind now?

    I know the Red Wall polling was terrible for Labour but it wasn’t great for Reform either. Farage was hardly popular even apparently where Reform is doing well. To me instinctively this feels like Farage benefiting from “not Labour”. But Labour has a lot of time to turn things around.

    Reform are just being Populist. Farage used to be Thatcherite and cheered the Kamikwase budget under Truss, yet now supports steel renationalisation.

    It's just typical opportunism. Labour has a big problem though. Staking everything on deliverism means they have to deliver, and so far they are not doing so. Voters are not usually known for their patience.
    It may well be opportunism, but in the case of steel renationalisation perhaps it isn't. AIUI, the steelworks was purchased by a Chinese company (which British companies were competing?) and hindsight is suggesting that was a bad move for national security reasons. So the steelworks needs to be bought back, but there is now/still no British company willing to take it on.

    The government in that case is a purchaser of last resort. In my view that isn't the same thing as being in favour of (re)nationalisation in principle.
    The bigger picture which Labour can't get their heads around is that these privately-owned businesses operate assets which represent Britain's strategic national security interests.

    At the very least we need to tightly regulate them. And if that fails bring them back in house. Thames Water is the obvious candidate alongside British Steel. And yet neither have been repossessed because Treasury orthodoxy states that debt would then become public and what does that mean for our calculations?

    Who cares? When we moved house the last thing I added on was nearly £3k for a new TV. A lot of money - but small compared to the move costs. Reeves calculations have already been swept away by events - twice. And they've been in office for 10 months. So what does it matter?

    Key to this is secure the asset and start saving money. In the case of Thames Water because of the appalling mismanagement and lack of grasp on costs there are big savings to be made by taking over. In the case of BS it needs to be kept operational and the owner was about to shut it. A very small change in the state of the national debt to save a whole load more money later.
    They are very different situations in my opinion. Water companies can be run profitably - Thames Water is in trouble because it has been badly run. It should be allowed to go bust, at the expense of its investors, who have done very nicely off it up till now, and took a commercial risk. When it goes bust, there will be plenty of other companies willing to take it on without the debt of the defunct company.

    Steel is a widely different matter. It is (like water) a vital national resource, but it will struggle to be run profitably with our ridiculous disordered economy. I think the Government needs to guarantee its future for the time being until it can be run commercially, and probably thereafter ensure it remains in British hands. They also need to get that coal mine built, probably by bypassing the planning process for reasons of national security. We cannot keep the process of making virgin steel in the UK as a security measure, yet have the fuel we need to keep it burning coming from overseas. That makes zero sense - the Japanese coal can only ever be a stop-gap.
    We probably can separate the questions of steel and the coal used to make it, if we consider that the national security issue is quality and not availability. In other words, we can't be sure that hostile states might slip in a defective batch of the steel we buy for our next warship, but we can easily test the coal we buy.
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