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A reminder that polling questions matter – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,414
edited April 14 in General
A reminder that polling questions matter – politicalbetting.com

This poll is a Rorschach test for people on both sides of the free trade debate.It either shows that:1. Pro-manufacturing people (80%) don't actually want to work in factory jobs (25%).2. Or there is potential/willingness (25%) for 10x growth in current factory jobs (2%).

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,099
    edited April 14
    First to point out that this is the same as more tax? We should definitely pay more to allow more public spending on the poor. Just that it should be paid by the better off, somewhat flexibly defined as slightly better off than me.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,291
    DavidL said:

    First to point out that this is the same as more tax? We should definitely pay more to allow more public spending on the poor. Just that it should be paid by the better off, somewhat flexibly defined as slightly better off than me.

    Slightly better off than a successful attorney? That's going to be quite a narrow tax base we've got there.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,099
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    First to point out that this is the same as more tax? We should definitely pay more to allow more public spending on the poor. Just that it should be paid by the better off, somewhat flexibly defined as slightly better off than me.

    Slightly better off than a successful attorney? That's going to be quite a narrow tax base we've got there.
    I am but a simple and poor public servant these days, struggling by on a mere £107k.

    But yes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,291
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
  • vikvik Posts: 240
    An actually useful poll would be one that asks if people would be willing to pay higher prices for more manufacturing jobs, and if so, how much ?

    Otherwise, the poll is meaningless. If there is zero cost, then of course, everyone would be in favour of more people working in manufacturing. But if they are reminded that more people working in manufacturing equals higher prices, then I'm willing to bet support for more manufacturing will drop pretty fast.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,099
    vik said:

    An actually useful poll would be one that asks if people would be willing to pay higher prices for more manufacturing jobs, and if so, how much ?

    Otherwise, the poll is meaningless. If there is zero cost, then of course, everyone would be in favour of more people working in manufacturing. But if they are reminded that more people working in manufacturing equals higher prices, then I'm willing to bet support for more manufacturing will drop pretty fast.

    Don't be ridiculous. You want people to think about the consequences of their desired actions? Have you no feel for the zeitgeist at all?
  • eekeek Posts: 29,687
    FPT
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    NO, he’s mad that

    1) the story hasn’t disappeared from the news - how dare US news continue to report on it in a way that will make viewers sympathic
    and
    2) it’s yet another reminder that his desired Novel Peace Prize for stopping the war isn’t going to appear on November
  • eekeek Posts: 29,687
    edited April 14
    DavidL said:

    vik said:

    An actually useful poll would be one that asks if people would be willing to pay higher prices for more manufacturing jobs, and if so, how much ?

    Otherwise, the poll is meaningless. If there is zero cost, then of course, everyone would be in favour of more people working in manufacturing. But if they are reminded that more people working in manufacturing equals higher prices, then I'm willing to bet support for more manufacturing will drop pretty fast.

    Don't be ridiculous. You want people to think about the consequences of their desired actions? Have you no feel for the zeitgeist at all?
    If you are asking that question you need to ask how much extra would people be willing to pay for a good of equal quality (duration / material) if it was made in the USA.

    And then you will discover that it’s at most it will be $100 across all purchases in a year based on the previous tax question of that type in the UK
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,291
    eek said:

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    NO, he’s mad that

    1) the story hasn’t disappeared from the news - how dare US news continue to report on it in a way that will make viewers sympathic
    and
    2) it’s yet another reminder that his desired Novel Peace Prize for stopping the war isn’t going to appear on November
    He might get a novel peace prize.

    For increasing the amount of warfare having been promising to stop it.

    Another way he gives off strong Nixon vibes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,430
    This is a very good article on tariffs, which reminds me a bit of some of Roberts's stuff.

    Tariffs, saving, and investment
    https://www.grumpy-economist.com/p/tariffs-saving-and-investment

    I wholly concur with the opinion that China's currency "manipulation" is a fallacy.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,687
    edited April 14
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    First to point out that this is the same as more tax? We should definitely pay more to allow more public spending on the poor. Just that it should be paid by the better off, somewhat flexibly defined as slightly better off than me.

    Slightly better off than a successful attorney? That's going to be quite a narrow tax base we've got there.
    I am but a simple and poor public servant these days, struggling by on a mere £107k.

    But yes.
    There will be a lot of people (outside here) who would take that figure and say it’s more than the public sector should be paying people.

    Here my only comment would be that’s more than an MP gets. But, personally, skilled work should be properly awarded.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,377
    Good morning, everybody.

    Having googled Rorschach test, I now know it's "important that you see the four-legged animals on each side of the blot," as "you're assumed to be a mental defective if you don't." I didn't know anyone used such terms nowadays.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,291
    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    Having googled Rorschach test, I now know it's "important that you see the four-legged animals on each side of the blot," as "you're assumed to be a mental defective if you don't." I didn't know anyone used such terms nowadays.

    Does this mean it's easier if you're an alcoholic?

    Have we finally found a test that proves Leon has a high IQ - with an explanation?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,133
    I am away from Blighty. A photo of my breakfast Infront of an Alpine vista to follow.

    So Kemi had personally drawn up a plan as Bus. Sec. which would have saved British Steel months ago and Labour jettisoned it because she had drafted it and it was brilliant? That is incendiary!
  • eekeek Posts: 29,687
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    NO, he’s mad that

    1) the story hasn’t disappeared from the news - how dare US news continue to report on it in a way that will make viewers sympathic
    and
    2) it’s yet another reminder that his desired Novel Peace Prize for stopping the war isn’t going to appear on November
    He might get a novel peace prize.

    For increasing the amount of warfare having been promising to stop it.

    Another way he gives off strong Nixon vibes.
    You look at a post after posting and go back to fix the obvious typo from your phone - leaving the mother all all typos in the next paragraph completely unnoticed
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,082
    edited April 14
    Listening to Today and they are talking about the problem with bots taking all tue driving test slots.

    Chair of the Transport committee just said that they need a new website for booking to stop this but it will take 5 years.

    Would any of our resident tech people explain to an analogue caveman like myself how it takes 5 years to build such a site and can they not buy existing ones off the shelf used by other countries and tweak it?

    Seems absolutely bonkers that it takes 5 years.

  • eekeek Posts: 29,687
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,291
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    I suspect I am better at golf than Trump.

    And I'm pretty bad at golf.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,278
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    NO, he’s mad that

    1) the story hasn’t disappeared from the news - how dare US news continue to report on it in a way that will make viewers sympathic
    and
    2) it’s yet another reminder that his desired Novel Peace Prize for stopping the war isn’t going to appear on November
    He might get a novel peace prize.

    For increasing the amount of warfare having been promising to stop it.

    Another way he gives off strong Nixon vibes.
    You look at a post after posting and go back to fix the obvious typo from your phone - leaving the mother all all typos in the next paragraph completely unnoticed
    I wonder if it's a message from the universe.

    If someone prints off a really big certificate, the size of those charity presentation cheques, headed NOVEL PEACE PRIZE and give it to Donny T, will that be enough to make him go away?
  • eekeek Posts: 29,687
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    I suspect I am better at golf than Trump.

    And I'm pretty bad at golf.
    Turns out John isn’t that bad - first of many google links https://www.mngolf.org/PlayerProfile/a2f9d1fd-75da-4c1e-a0ee-1d8288e3cea4
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,074
    A point that was made on Rest is Politics US recently; the large majority of Americans aspire to work in service occupations, and there aren't large numbers of them wanting to spend their days on an assembly line making little screws for iphones.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,194
    US manufacturing accounts for about 8% of US jobs. If you eliminate the trade deficit entirely it would be about 10% of jobs. So you don't actually need many people at all to move into them, so the polling is fairly irrelevant.

    The bigger point is that 100% will be paying more for goods for a max of 2-3% to get new manufacturing work. And of those 2-3% some won't enjoy their work, some will be illegal immigrants, and few will be well paid. The jobs may end up in the areas already with a decent economy rather than the hollowed out post industrial towns that need them.

    All this is if you completely eliminated the trade deficit which is pretty unlikely. As public policy this is just bonkers.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,066
    boulay said:

    Listening to Today and they are talking about the problem with bots taking all tue driving test slots.

    Chair of the Transport committee just said that they need a new website for booking to stop this but it will take 5 years.

    Would any of our resident tech people explain to an analogue caveman like myself how it takes 5 years to build such a site and can they not buy existing ones off the shelf used by other countries and tweak it?

    Seems absolutely bonkers that it takes 5 years.

    The real issue is an extreme reluctance to cut off scammers and fraudsters. The actual answer is to shut down the portal that allows for bookings by companies rather than individuals. This would take minutes.

    Creating a replacement system wouldn’t take 5 years, either.

    The real issue is an absolute resistance to the idea that a test can only be booked for a specific person. Which would prevent re-sale.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,262
    edited April 14
    Hah! Further to last night's discussion of the Trump's Schrödinger tariffs that are dead and alive at the same time, I see that today is fittingly World Quantum Day.

    http://www.google.com/doodles/world-quantum-day
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,377
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    Having googled Rorschach test, I now know it's "important that you see the four-legged animals on each side of the blot," as "you're assumed to be a mental defective if you don't." I didn't know anyone used such terms nowadays.

    Does this mean it's easier if you're an alcoholic?

    Have we finally found a test that proves Leon has a high IQ - with an explanation?
    Not a clue. That may be because the images I saw looked like spinal column bones to me. I didn't see any 4-legged creatures until I looked for them, so I was able to draw conclusions about my own mental capacity.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,099
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    First to point out that this is the same as more tax? We should definitely pay more to allow more public spending on the poor. Just that it should be paid by the better off, somewhat flexibly defined as slightly better off than me.

    Slightly better off than a successful attorney? That's going to be quite a narrow tax base we've got there.
    I am but a simple and poor public servant these days, struggling by on a mere £107k.

    But yes.
    There will be a lot of people (outside here) who would take that figure and say it’s more than the public sector should be paying people.

    Here my only comment would be that’s more than an MP gets. But, personally, skilled work should be properly awarded.
    I should point out that I don't get the other fripperies that usually come with a public sector job such as a pension, sick pay, paternity rights, security of employment etc etc. I also have to pay a lot of my expenses out of my own pocket. So, I don't think I actually do get more than an MP. But I am not complaining. Much.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,194
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    I suspect I am better at golf than Trump.

    And I'm pretty bad at golf.
    Trump is a very good golfer for his age. That he cheats and lies in golf as in everything else is true but without cheating he would still be very competitive in most clubs 70yo+ tournaments.

    The best Trump cheating story is where he won his own club tournament by ordering the course to be set up brutally hard whilst giving himself a special exemption to record his score on a completely different course as he was away on busines.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,775
    MAGA supporters want manufacturing jobs for rust belt people which pay BIG and turn out patriotic Murican products for patriots which will be superior to imports because Murica and will be cheaper too.

    It’s so obvious. Why have all these traitor presidents of the past not done this already?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,278
    edited April 14
    Eabhal said:

    I think this polling is a rather depressing reflection of how people think about the economy. More manufacturing does not necessarily mean more jobs, given potential for automation and other forms of innovation.

    The UK, for example, produces a very large proportion of our food, yet only 1% of the population work in agriculture. Only 150,000 people work in energy generation, and that will likely fall even as we increase out output via renewables. We could open dozens of new EAFs and produce much more steel than we do now, yet employ fewer people than in our blast furnaces. We might end up entirely replacing the RAF with AI-flown drones.

    An economy structured around maximising employment in certain sectors is doomed to fail, IMO. It should really be the opposite, opening up labour for new areas of economic growth, or more time for fun, raising children, looking after elderly relatives and so on.

    TLDR Being pro domestic manufacturing does not mean being pro domestic manufacturing jobs.

    And the jobs it brings won't necessarily match those wanting industrial jobs anyway. Instead of lots of people doing stuff with their hands and minimal book smarts, you have fewer, highly-trained people productively supervising robots.

    It's nostalgia for a time that did exist for a bit. But even if we could return to that time, we wouldn't really want to. (See also the polling in the UK that says too many young people get degrees these days but my (grand)children should definitely do so.)

    And that reminds me of another decision that a country took to go back to simpler better times, the way things were in their youth, which also has negative consequences which many are desperate to overlook.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,212
    edited April 14
    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    Having googled Rorschach test, I now know it's "important that you see the four-legged animals on each side of the blot," as "you're assumed to be a mental defective if you don't." I didn't know anyone used such terms nowadays.

    I regret to inform you that various types in the US are celebrating the return of the ‘R’ word, retard, to common usage. Safe to say these types are not mental health professionals.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,751
    Well of course I personally wouldn't be better off if I worked in a factory. I'm a mid-level public sector functionary with no relevant skills in manufacturing. But if Britain had a rather larger manufacturing sector, I may have taken a different path through life and been better off as a result. Factory work isn't necessarily production line drudgery: I have happy and well-remunerated friends who work in factories understanding how to make stuff. Relatively few of them, though, because Britain's manufacturing sector is not that large.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,212
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    And governing more than likely.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,430

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    I suspect I am better at golf than Trump.

    And I'm pretty bad at golf.
    Trump is a very good golfer for his age. That he cheats and lies in golf as in everything else is true but without cheating he would still be very competitive in most clubs 70yo+ tournaments.

    The best Trump cheating story is where he won his own club tournament by ordering the course to be set up brutally hard whilst giving himself a special exemption to record his score on a completely different course as he was away on busines.
    Fools pay a million dollars to have dinner with him. Currying favour by throwing a game of golf is a cheaper way of doing the same.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,262

    boulay said:

    Listening to Today and they are talking about the problem with bots taking all tue driving test slots.

    Chair of the Transport committee just said that they need a new website for booking to stop this but it will take 5 years.

    Would any of our resident tech people explain to an analogue caveman like myself how it takes 5 years to build such a site and can they not buy existing ones off the shelf used by other countries and tweak it?

    Seems absolutely bonkers that it takes 5 years.

    The real issue is an extreme reluctance to cut off scammers and fraudsters. The actual answer is to shut down the portal that allows for bookings by companies rather than individuals. This would take minutes.

    Creating a replacement system wouldn’t take 5 years, either.

    The real issue is an absolute resistance to the idea that a test can only be booked for a specific person. Which would prevent re-sale.
    It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the decision-makers are somehow in hoc to the private booking companies.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,093
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    First to point out that this is the same as more tax? We should definitely pay more to allow more public spending on the poor. Just that it should be paid by the better off, somewhat flexibly defined as slightly better off than me.

    Slightly better off than a successful attorney? That's going to be quite a narrow tax base we've got there.
    I am but a simple and poor public servant these days, struggling by on a mere £107k.

    But yes.
    Interesting thread here from Luke Tryl polling on who is seen to be rich in Britain:

    https://bsky.app/profile/luketryl.bsky.social/post/3lmm4oiefes25

    You are not alone in your (and mine!) income bracket.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,133

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    I suspect I am better at golf than Trump.

    And I'm pretty bad at golf.
    Trump is a very good golfer for his age. That he cheats and lies in golf as in everything else is true but without cheating he would still be very competitive in most clubs 70yo+ tournaments.

    The best Trump cheating story is where he won his own club tournament by ordering the course to be set up brutally hard whilst giving himself a special exemption to record his score on a completely different course as he was away on busines.
    That is genius.

    Winning the Masters whilst playing the tournament not at Augusta but at the pitch and putt in Penarth.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,687

    US manufacturing accounts for about 8% of US jobs. If you eliminate the trade deficit entirely it would be about 10% of jobs. So you don't actually need many people at all to move into them, so the polling is fairly irrelevant.

    The bigger point is that 100% will be paying more for goods for a max of 2-3% to get new manufacturing work. And of those 2-3% some won't enjoy their work, some will be illegal immigrants, and few will be well paid. The jobs may end up in the areas already with a decent economy rather than the hollowed out post industrial towns that need them.

    All this is if you completely eliminated the trade deficit which is pretty unlikely. As public policy this is just bonkers.

    That’s the final bit of the puzzle which I don’t get. Factories were usually built where the raw materials used to be (I.e. your steel works is where coal or the raw materials for steel is mined).

    After that the next issue is logistics to get the raw materials in and the finished goods out - there is no point building a factory in nowhereville Kansas because the cost of the extra logistics is going to further increase the final cost of the products.

    Trump has offered his voters an impossible dream, something that at the end of the day can’t exist
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,093

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    Having googled Rorschach test, I now know it's "important that you see the four-legged animals on each side of the blot," as "you're assumed to be a mental defective if you don't." I didn't know anyone used such terms nowadays.

    I regret to inform you that various types in the US are celebrating the return of the ‘R’ word, retard, to common usage. Safe to say these types are not mental health professionals.
    Borate was ahead of his time.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,278
    eek said:

    US manufacturing accounts for about 8% of US jobs. If you eliminate the trade deficit entirely it would be about 10% of jobs. So you don't actually need many people at all to move into them, so the polling is fairly irrelevant.

    The bigger point is that 100% will be paying more for goods for a max of 2-3% to get new manufacturing work. And of those 2-3% some won't enjoy their work, some will be illegal immigrants, and few will be well paid. The jobs may end up in the areas already with a decent economy rather than the hollowed out post industrial towns that need them.

    All this is if you completely eliminated the trade deficit which is pretty unlikely. As public policy this is just bonkers.

    That’s the final bit of the puzzle which I don’t get. Factories were usually built where the raw materials used to be (I.e. your steel works is where coal or the raw materials for steel is mined).

    After that the next issue is logistics to get the raw materials in and the finished goods out - there is no point building a factory in nowhereville Kansas because the cost of the extra logistics is going to further increase the final cost of the products.

    Trump has offered his voters an impossible dream, something that at the end of the day can’t exist
    "Believe in the bin", as the other Rory put it.

    (Was that the same debate that he started taking his clothes off? Was he trying to prove that he was bonkers enough to be Conservative leader?)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,026

    boulay said:

    Listening to Today and they are talking about the problem with bots taking all tue driving test slots.

    Chair of the Transport committee just said that they need a new website for booking to stop this but it will take 5 years.

    Would any of our resident tech people explain to an analogue caveman like myself how it takes 5 years to build such a site and can they not buy existing ones off the shelf used by other countries and tweak it?

    Seems absolutely bonkers that it takes 5 years.

    The real issue is an extreme reluctance to cut off scammers and fraudsters. The actual answer is to shut down the portal that allows for bookings by companies rather than individuals. This would take minutes.

    Creating a replacement system wouldn’t take 5 years, either.

    The real issue is an absolute resistance to the idea that a test can only be booked for a specific person. Which would prevent re-sale.
    No, the real issue is there are simply not enough test slots owing partly to a backlog but mainly to a shortage of driving instructors. The question of bots or block bookings is a distraction.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,026
    Cookie said:

    Well of course I personally wouldn't be better off if I worked in a factory. I'm a mid-level public sector functionary with no relevant skills in manufacturing. But if Britain had a rather larger manufacturing sector, I may have taken a different path through life and been better off as a result. Factory work isn't necessarily production line drudgery: I have happy and well-remunerated friends who work in factories understanding how to make stuff. Relatively few of them, though, because Britain's manufacturing sector is not that large.

    At least in the past, production line jobs were better paid than many white collar jobs (which was partly due to better unions).
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,031
    I see Agent Trumpski overnight claimed the Russian massacre in Ukraine on Palm Sunday was "a mistake"
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,133

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    And governing more than likely.
    You cannot be serious!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,262
    Scott_xP said:

    I see Agent Trumpski overnight claimed the Russian massacre in Ukraine on Palm Sunday was "a mistake"

    Mistake as in 'they're going to regret they did that' or mistake as in 'could have happened to anyone'?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,026
    The report on 2-tier policing has been published.

    So far as I can tell, the report must have been written by two different people who did not agree on whether 2-tier policing should be denied or justified.
    https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/83/home-affairs-committee/publications/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,031

    Scott_xP said:

    I see Agent Trumpski overnight claimed the Russian massacre in Ukraine on Palm Sunday was "a mistake"

    Mistake as in 'they're going to regret they did that' or mistake as in 'could have happened to anyone'?
    Sadly you know the answer to that
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,262
    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    Having googled Rorschach test, I now know it's "important that you see the four-legged animals on each side of the blot," as "you're assumed to be a mental defective if you don't." I didn't know anyone used such terms nowadays.

    I regret to inform you that various types in the US are celebrating the return of the ‘R’ word, retard, to common usage. Safe to say these types are not mental health professionals.
    Borate was ahead of his time.
    That's a salty comment.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,775
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    First to point out that this is the same as more tax? We should definitely pay more to allow more public spending on the poor. Just that it should be paid by the better off, somewhat flexibly defined as slightly better off than me.

    Slightly better off than a successful attorney? That's going to be quite a narrow tax base we've got there.
    I am but a simple and poor public servant these days, struggling by on a mere £107k.

    But yes.
    There will be a lot of people (outside here) who would take that figure and say it’s more than the public sector should be paying people.

    Here my only comment would be that’s more than an MP gets. But, personally, skilled work should be properly awarded.
    I should point out that I don't get the other fripperies that usually come with a public sector job such as a pension, sick pay, paternity rights, security of employment etc etc. I also have to pay a lot of my expenses out of my own pocket. So, I don't think I actually do get more than an MP. But I am not complaining. Much.
    I hear you. My turnover from consulting and YouTube is more than that. But I have a lot of expenses - and haven't paid into a pension for 5 years due to needing the cash to build the business...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,262
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I see Agent Trumpski overnight claimed the Russian massacre in Ukraine on Palm Sunday was "a mistake"

    Mistake as in 'they're going to regret they did that' or mistake as in 'could have happened to anyone'?
    Sadly you know the answer to that
    Sadly, I do.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,194

    US manufacturing accounts for about 8% of US jobs. If you eliminate the trade deficit entirely it would be about 10% of jobs. So you don't actually need many people at all to move into them, so the polling is fairly irrelevant.

    The bigger point is that 100% will be paying more for goods for a max of 2-3% to get new manufacturing work. And of those 2-3% some won't enjoy their work, some will be illegal immigrants, and few will be well paid. The jobs may end up in the areas already with a decent economy rather than the hollowed out post industrial towns that need them.

    All this is if you completely eliminated the trade deficit which is pretty unlikely. As public policy this is just bonkers.

    Oh and another thing. With AI and other continued improvement in technology even if you bumped up manufacturing to 10% of US jobs instead of 8% now, further automation and productivity improvements would likely move it back to 8% and below within a decade anyway!

    Richer countries just need to plan economies around a low number of manufacturing jobs.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,687

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    I suspect I am better at golf than Trump.

    And I'm pretty bad at golf.
    Trump is a very good golfer for his age. That he cheats and lies in golf as in everything else is true but without cheating he would still be very competitive in most clubs 70yo+ tournaments.

    The best Trump cheating story is where he won his own club tournament by ordering the course to be set up brutally hard whilst giving himself a special exemption to record his score on a completely different course as he was away on busines.
    The thing with that is that it strokes his ego while everyone else will know that the real winner finished second but was cheated out of the win and (I suspect) the rather large first place prize
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,194
    edited April 14
    eek said:

    US manufacturing accounts for about 8% of US jobs. If you eliminate the trade deficit entirely it would be about 10% of jobs. So you don't actually need many people at all to move into them, so the polling is fairly irrelevant.

    The bigger point is that 100% will be paying more for goods for a max of 2-3% to get new manufacturing work. And of those 2-3% some won't enjoy their work, some will be illegal immigrants, and few will be well paid. The jobs may end up in the areas already with a decent economy rather than the hollowed out post industrial towns that need them.

    All this is if you completely eliminated the trade deficit which is pretty unlikely. As public policy this is just bonkers.

    That’s the final bit of the puzzle which I don’t get. Factories were usually built where the raw materials used to be (I.e. your steel works is where coal or the raw materials for steel is mined).

    After that the next issue is logistics to get the raw materials in and the finished goods out - there is no point building a factory in nowhereville Kansas because the cost of the extra logistics is going to further increase the final cost of the products.

    Trump has offered his voters an impossible dream, something that at the end of the day can’t exist
    He is just selling nostalgia. It is an easy sell when times are tough. Can never be delivered though, so you need a long list of scapegoats to blame.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,489
    eek said:

    US manufacturing accounts for about 8% of US jobs. If you eliminate the trade deficit entirely it would be about 10% of jobs. So you don't actually need many people at all to move into them, so the polling is fairly irrelevant.

    The bigger point is that 100% will be paying more for goods for a max of 2-3% to get new manufacturing work. And of those 2-3% some won't enjoy their work, some will be illegal immigrants, and few will be well paid. The jobs may end up in the areas already with a decent economy rather than the hollowed out post industrial towns that need them.

    All this is if you completely eliminated the trade deficit which is pretty unlikely. As public policy this is just bonkers.

    That’s the final bit of the puzzle which I don’t get. Factories were usually built where the raw materials used to be (I.e. your steel works is where coal or the raw materials for steel is mined).

    After that the next issue is logistics to get the raw materials in and the finished goods out - there is no point building a factory in nowhereville Kansas because the cost of the extra logistics is going to further increase the final cost of the products.

    Trump has offered his voters an impossible dream, something that at the end of the day can’t exist
    Not just the extra cost of transportation but also availability of workers.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,775
    Question - is the latest play on tariffs more Trumper grift?

    He told people to BUY NOW and then announced he was scrapping the extra tariffs. Trumpers made $304bn. I assume similar profits in Apple etc when he reneged on the smartphone tariff.

    What has happened this weekend - big short positions on Apple now that he's putting smartphone tariffs back on?

    Endless comedy:
    MAGA types think he is a tactical and strategic genius
    His mates are making a literal killing, gutting US pensions to do so
    Nobody will challenge King Donald despite all of this being screamingly illegal

    Meanwhile he is going to sue the lying woke liberal MSM again because they interviewed evil Zelinskiyy. The obvious step is appoint Don Jr to run the FCC and abolish CBS and presumably MSNBC and CNN.

    America does not need traitors broadcasting woke lies!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,494
    edited April 14
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    The differences between Trump and McEnroe are that McEnroe eventually grew up, McEnroe is not corrupt, McEnroe is not a self-absorbed, pompous twunt (word of the day), and McEnroe is not a career criminal. That is for starters.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,042
    edited April 14
    We’re still waiting to hear what Trump will do with the 200,000 Ukrainians who came to the USA after the war started .

    Most people with a shred of humanity wouldn’t even think of sending them back to a war zone , but with the current administration where cruelty is the number one game who knows!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,031
    America needs another revolution
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,451
    nico67 said:

    We’re still waiting to hear what Trump will do with the 200,000 Ukrainians who came to the USA after the war started .

    Most people with a shred of humanity wouldn’t even think of sending them back to a war zone , but with the current administration where cruelty is the number one game who knows!

    Probably send them to Siberia.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,489
    So why don't those people who think they would be better off working in a factory actually get a job in a factory ?

    Now some will be in rural areas where there are few or no factories and that's not going to change.

    But most will simply not have the skillset needed.

    And that is a failure of partly themselves and partly of the US education/training system.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,418
    Scott_xP said:

    I see Agent Trumpski overnight claimed the Russian massacre in Ukraine on Palm Sunday was "a mistake"

    Just how many atrocities is it going to take for the penny to finally drop with Trump - that Putin is taking the piss?
  • eekeek Posts: 29,687

    eek said:

    US manufacturing accounts for about 8% of US jobs. If you eliminate the trade deficit entirely it would be about 10% of jobs. So you don't actually need many people at all to move into them, so the polling is fairly irrelevant.

    The bigger point is that 100% will be paying more for goods for a max of 2-3% to get new manufacturing work. And of those 2-3% some won't enjoy their work, some will be illegal immigrants, and few will be well paid. The jobs may end up in the areas already with a decent economy rather than the hollowed out post industrial towns that need them.

    All this is if you completely eliminated the trade deficit which is pretty unlikely. As public policy this is just bonkers.

    That’s the final bit of the puzzle which I don’t get. Factories were usually built where the raw materials used to be (I.e. your steel works is where coal or the raw materials for steel is mined).

    After that the next issue is logistics to get the raw materials in and the finished goods out - there is no point building a factory in nowhereville Kansas because the cost of the extra logistics is going to further increase the final cost of the products.

    Trump has offered his voters an impossible dream, something that at the end of the day can’t exist
    Not just the extra cost of transportation but also availability of workers.
    I was avoiding that because the quid pro quo of opening a factory in nowhereville Kansas is that the people living there will believe they can do the factory work - it’s will only be later that they discover it’s poorly paid, boring and often requires skills they haven’t got
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,066

    boulay said:

    Listening to Today and they are talking about the problem with bots taking all tue driving test slots.

    Chair of the Transport committee just said that they need a new website for booking to stop this but it will take 5 years.

    Would any of our resident tech people explain to an analogue caveman like myself how it takes 5 years to build such a site and can they not buy existing ones off the shelf used by other countries and tweak it?

    Seems absolutely bonkers that it takes 5 years.

    The real issue is an extreme reluctance to cut off scammers and fraudsters. The actual answer is to shut down the portal that allows for bookings by companies rather than individuals. This would take minutes.

    Creating a replacement system wouldn’t take 5 years, either.

    The real issue is an absolute resistance to the idea that a test can only be booked for a specific person. Which would prevent re-sale.
    It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the decision-makers are somehow in hoc to the private booking companies.
    Never explain with malice what can be explained by stupidity and timidity.

    See the many, many examples where fraud and malpractice is not pursued.

    The next big scandal, which Reform will break, is the sale of work visas by companies. Given that people will pay 4 figures for a seat on a RIB across the Channel, what do you think they pay for real, actual papers? Yup.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,850
    Harbinger?

    Local elections in Finland see the vote of the semi fascist Finns Party cut in half. Good result for the Centre Left.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jmkorhonen.fi/post/3lmqztorzw22i
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,262

    Scott_xP said:

    I see Agent Trumpski overnight claimed the Russian massacre in Ukraine on Palm Sunday was "a mistake"

    Just how many atrocities is it going to take for the penny to finally drop with Trump - that Putin is taking the piss?
    That's never happening. The best hope is that the penny will eventually drop on Republican supporters that Trump is a malevolent simpleton.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,418

    So why don't those people who think they would be better off working in a factory actually get a job in a factory ?

    Now some will be in rural areas where there are few or no factories and that's not going to change.

    But most will simply not have the skillset needed.

    And that is a failure of partly themselves and partly of the US education/training system.

    What was the point in training them to do something Chinese workers have been trained for decades to do - with great manual dexterity - for a small fraction of the cost required of an American? Who would possibly put money into that?

    Not Trump's tame billionaires for sure.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,850
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    I suspect I am better at golf than Trump.

    And I'm pretty bad at golf.
    Trump is a very good golfer for his age. That he cheats and lies in golf as in everything else is true but without cheating he would still be very competitive in most clubs 70yo+ tournaments.

    The best Trump cheating story is where he won his own club tournament by ordering the course to be set up brutally hard whilst giving himself a special exemption to record his score on a completely different course as he was away on busines.
    The thing with that is that it strokes his ego while everyone else will know that the real winner finished second but was cheated out of the win and (I suspect) the rather large first place prize
    Not even that. The other players are complicit in letting him win. It's the same as deliberately making mistakes playing draughts so the five year old can win.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,133
    Scott_xP said:

    America needs another revolution

    It's just had one. The next will be in 249 years. Buckle up.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,262

    So why don't those people who think they would be better off working in a factory actually get a job in a factory ?

    Now some will be in rural areas where there are few or no factories and that's not going to change.

    But most will simply not have the skillset needed.

    And that is a failure of partly themselves and partly of the US education/training system.

    How many of the 25% who think they would be better off working in a factory are simply unemployable? If you're unemployed and no one will employ you, you might well think you'd be better off working in a factory.

    Then again how many are just exhibiting the 'grass is greener' syndrome? Work in a call centre / restaurant / retail outlet / delivery driver... "surely a factory job would be better?"
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,489
    eek said:

    eek said:

    US manufacturing accounts for about 8% of US jobs. If you eliminate the trade deficit entirely it would be about 10% of jobs. So you don't actually need many people at all to move into them, so the polling is fairly irrelevant.

    The bigger point is that 100% will be paying more for goods for a max of 2-3% to get new manufacturing work. And of those 2-3% some won't enjoy their work, some will be illegal immigrants, and few will be well paid. The jobs may end up in the areas already with a decent economy rather than the hollowed out post industrial towns that need them.

    All this is if you completely eliminated the trade deficit which is pretty unlikely. As public policy this is just bonkers.

    That’s the final bit of the puzzle which I don’t get. Factories were usually built where the raw materials used to be (I.e. your steel works is where coal or the raw materials for steel is mined).

    After that the next issue is logistics to get the raw materials in and the finished goods out - there is no point building a factory in nowhereville Kansas because the cost of the extra logistics is going to further increase the final cost of the products.

    Trump has offered his voters an impossible dream, something that at the end of the day can’t exist
    Not just the extra cost of transportation but also availability of workers.
    I was avoiding that because the quid pro quo of opening a factory in nowhereville Kansas is that the people living there will believe they can do the factory work - it’s will only be later that they discover it’s poorly paid, boring and often requires skills they haven’t got
    I'll have great sympathy for all those in charge of any assembly line factory opened as a result of tariffs.

    Everyone from the highest manager to the most junior supervisor will be constantly struggling to get much of the workforce to actually produce some useful output.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,418
    edited April 14
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    He's also a decent guitarist. Saw him play with the Eagles in Hyde Park a couple of years back.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,494
    Good morning everyone.

    A piece on closing the "it's a business and business rates are cheaper" Council Tax avoidance loophole on Holiday Accommodation in Wales; the rules have been tightened: Changes:

    - Stricter criteria to qualify as a business (140 days available / 70 days let -> 282 days / 140 days)
    - Council Tax can be increased for holiday lets by Councils (usually double).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn4wy98gde9o

    My take:

    - Seems to be achieving its objective of a sharper dividing line. The number of former 2nd homes on the market suggests the loophole is closing.

    - It wants a success check in 3-5 years, on whether the season has extended and adjustments needed, after the market has stabilised.

    - Cheaper holiday lets in Wales at the end of the measurement year coming soon?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,082

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    He's also a decent guitarist. Saw him play with the Eagles in Hyde Park a couple of years back.
    All those years playing his tennis racket like a guitar in front of the mirror in his bedroom paid off.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,133

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Trump threatening CBS and 60 Minutes after they do a long interview with Zelensky.

    https://bsky.app/profile/youranonjd.bsky.social/post/3lmqlaubhwc2s

    Totally normal country.

    The story here for those without bsky.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-says-cbs-60-035040999.html

    The 1st Amendment only has value if the institutions which sustain it continue to function.
    That increasingly hangs in the balance.

    We are not totally immune - only this weekend we had a respected journalist and travel writer advocating dictatorship here...
    Imagine watching scenes of destruction and child murder by Russian missiles in Ukraine and being mad only about the editor of the programme.
    Trump's comment was that it was probably a "mistake". And anyway it's 'Biden's war'.

    Whatever Europe does in Ukraine, it's increasingly clear that the US can't be part of it.
    The difference between Trump and John McEnroe is that McEnroe could at least play tennis.
    I suspect McEnroe is also better at golf than Trump
    He's also a decent guitarist. Saw him play with the Eagles in Hyde Park a couple of years back.
    You can not be serious!

    [Moderator note: Please do not post "you cannot be serious " again]
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,451

    I've just watched through the pilot episode of our new politics YouTube channel. Just like the launch of GBeebies there are some technical tweaks to make, but broadly I think it works.

    I'll say more when we're ready to launch it (likely next week), but this is going to be a whole load of fun. How much can I get away with saying before my party suspends me lol

    UK-focused or looking overseas too?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,489

    So why don't those people who think they would be better off working in a factory actually get a job in a factory ?

    Now some will be in rural areas where there are few or no factories and that's not going to change.

    But most will simply not have the skillset needed.

    And that is a failure of partly themselves and partly of the US education/training system.

    How many of the 25% who think they would be better off working in a factory are simply unemployable? If you're unemployed and no one will employ you, you might well think you'd be better off working in a factory.

    Then again how many are just exhibiting the 'grass is greener' syndrome? Work in a call centre / restaurant / retail outlet / delivery driver... "surely a factory job would be better?"
    There's an 'other side of the coin' question needed here.

    Would a factory be better off if you worked there ?

    I suspect a venn diagram of those who think they would be better off if they worked in a factory and those that a factory would actually want to have working there would show very little overlap.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,395

    So why don't those people who think they would be better off working in a factory actually get a job in a factory ?

    Now some will be in rural areas where there are few or no factories and that's not going to change.

    But most will simply not have the skillset needed.

    And that is a failure of partly themselves and partly of the US education/training system.

    What was the point in training them to do something Chinese workers have been trained for decades to do - with great manual dexterity - for a small fraction of the cost required of an American? Who would possibly put money into that?

    Not Trump's tame billionaires for sure.
    David Frum of Atlantic looked into the production of "those millions of little screws" for iphones. Turns out that it is highly skilled, intricate job and needs a lot of training. And the machines used are manufactured in America.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,494
    edited April 14

    Question - is the latest play on tariffs more Trumper grift?

    He told people to BUY NOW and then announced he was scrapping the extra tariffs. Trumpers made $304bn. I assume similar profits in Apple etc when he reneged on the smartphone tariff.

    What has happened this weekend - big short positions on Apple now that he's putting smartphone tariffs back on?

    Endless comedy:
    MAGA types think he is a tactical and strategic genius
    His mates are making a literal killing, gutting US pensions to do so
    Nobody will challenge King Donald despite all of this being screamingly illegal

    Meanwhile he is going to sue the lying woke liberal MSM again because they interviewed evil Zelinskiyy. The obvious step is appoint Don Jr to run the FCC and abolish CBS and presumably MSNBC and CNN.

    America does not need traitors broadcasting woke lies!

    AIUI Trump already has his placeman at the FCC, in the form of Brendan Carr.

    A complication may be that Trump already has an injunction on him in the Court Action on his banning of the Associated Press from media access.

    https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69662918/the-associated-press-v-budowich/

    The principles may read across.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,489

    So why don't those people who think they would be better off working in a factory actually get a job in a factory ?

    Now some will be in rural areas where there are few or no factories and that's not going to change.

    But most will simply not have the skillset needed.

    And that is a failure of partly themselves and partly of the US education/training system.

    What was the point in training them to do something Chinese workers have been trained for decades to do - with great manual dexterity - for a small fraction of the cost required of an American? Who would possibly put money into that?

    Not Trump's tame billionaires for sure.
    There will be plenty of vacancies for skilled workers in US manufacturing, and the US economy generally, right now.

    That is what the US government should be focussing on.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,506

    I've just watched through the pilot episode of our new politics YouTube channel. Just like the launch of GBeebies there are some technical tweaks to make, but broadly I think it works.

    I'll say more when we're ready to launch it (likely next week), but this is going to be a whole load of fun. How much can I get away with saying before my party suspends me lol

    If the LibDems are like their Liberal predecessors quite a lot!

    And Good Morning one and all. Ms Cyclefree, I hope you're well away from A&E now.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,775

    I've just watched through the pilot episode of our new politics YouTube channel. Just like the launch of GBeebies there are some technical tweaks to make, but broadly I think it works.

    I'll say more when we're ready to launch it (likely next week), but this is going to be a whole load of fun. How much can I get away with saying before my party suspends me lol

    UK-focused or looking overseas too?
    Very much UK focused. Not planning to discuss the whys and wherefores of foreign crises unless they are directly impacting onto the UK.

    So as an example I am completely chill for Americans to vote for Trump and for him to asset strip their pensions. The bit that is relevant is the impact of tariffs here. Same with the gutting of NATO and our need to rearm - how we find the money here and what it does for our economy.

    And we're very much not just wanting to be commentators. We need wholesale reforms of the UK, and we're going to talk through the framework of the Big Picture stuff which we can then pin all the political crises onto.

    In essence: Reform are on track to win the next election by talking Big Picture and offering simplistic solutions. You can't combat that by ignoring the real issues or by trying to outflank them, you need to out-think them. And you can't do that within the confines of a single political party and the pressures of the parliamentary grind...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,494

    I've just watched through the pilot episode of our new politics YouTube channel. Just like the launch of GBeebies there are some technical tweaks to make, but broadly I think it works.

    I'll say more when we're ready to launch it (likely next week), but this is going to be a whole load of fun. How much can I get away with saying before my party suspends me lol

    You could put your mind at rest by reviewing a few current members in presumably good standing :wink: .
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,430
    eek said:

    US manufacturing accounts for about 8% of US jobs. If you eliminate the trade deficit entirely it would be about 10% of jobs. So you don't actually need many people at all to move into them, so the polling is fairly irrelevant.

    The bigger point is that 100% will be paying more for goods for a max of 2-3% to get new manufacturing work. And of those 2-3% some won't enjoy their work, some will be illegal immigrants, and few will be well paid. The jobs may end up in the areas already with a decent economy rather than the hollowed out post industrial towns that need them.

    All this is if you completely eliminated the trade deficit which is pretty unlikely. As public policy this is just bonkers.

    That’s the final bit of the puzzle which I don’t get. Factories were usually built where the raw materials used to be (I.e. your steel works is where coal or the raw materials for steel is mined).

    After that the next issue is logistics to get the raw materials in and the finished goods out - there is no point building a factory in nowhereville Kansas because the cost of the extra logistics is going to further increase the final cost of the products.

    Trump has offered his voters an impossible dream, something that at the end of the day can’t exist
    Well he does enjoy tilting at windmills.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,430

    Scott_xP said:

    I see Agent Trumpski overnight claimed the Russian massacre in Ukraine on Palm Sunday was "a mistake"

    Just how many atrocities is it going to take for the penny to finally drop with Trump - that Putin is taking the piss?
    Does he care ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,506

    I've just watched through the pilot episode of our new politics YouTube channel. Just like the launch of GBeebies there are some technical tweaks to make, but broadly I think it works.

    I'll say more when we're ready to launch it (likely next week), but this is going to be a whole load of fun. How much can I get away with saying before my party suspends me lol

    UK-focused or looking overseas too?
    Very much UK focused. Not planning to discuss the whys and wherefores of foreign crises unless they are directly impacting onto the UK.

    So as an example I am completely chill for Americans to vote for Trump and for him to asset strip their pensions. The bit that is relevant is the impact of tariffs here. Same with the gutting of NATO and our need to rearm - how we find the money here and what it does for our economy.

    And we're very much not just wanting to be commentators. We need wholesale reforms of the UK, and we're going to talk through the framework of the Big Picture stuff which we can then pin all the political crises onto.

    In essence: Reform are on track to win the next election by talking Big Picture and offering simplistic solutions. You can't combat that by ignoring the real issues or by trying to outflank them, you need to out-think them. And you can't do that within the confines of a single political party and the pressures of the parliamentary grind...
    It's sometimes suggested that part of the 'British Problem' is our parliamentary structure; a chamber with two sides, Government facing Opposition, two swords (!) length apart.
    A semicircular chamber might, I've heard suggested, encourage more lateral thinking and co-operation.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 958
    Mainsteam Research have Conservatives 2% ahead in Canada, not enough to form a Government but back into no party control territory?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,494
    MattW said:

    Question - is the latest play on tariffs more Trumper grift?

    He told people to BUY NOW and then announced he was scrapping the extra tariffs. Trumpers made $304bn. I assume similar profits in Apple etc when he reneged on the smartphone tariff.

    What has happened this weekend - big short positions on Apple now that he's putting smartphone tariffs back on?

    Endless comedy:
    MAGA types think he is a tactical and strategic genius
    His mates are making a literal killing, gutting US pensions to do so
    Nobody will challenge King Donald despite all of this being screamingly illegal

    Meanwhile he is going to sue the lying woke liberal MSM again because they interviewed evil Zelinskiyy. The obvious step is appoint Don Jr to run the FCC and abolish CBS and presumably MSNBC and CNN.

    America does not need traitors broadcasting woke lies!

    AIUI Trump already has his placeman at the FCC, in the form of Brendan Carr.

    A complication may be that Trump already has an injunction on him in the Court Action on his banning of the Associated Press from media access.

    https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69662918/the-associated-press-v-budowich/

    The principles may read across.
    Deep link to injunction record:
    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.277682/gov.uscourts.dcd.277682.46.0_1.pdf
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,031

    A semicircular chamber might, I've heard suggested, encourage more lateral thinking and co-operation.

    Holyrood waves hello...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,506
    Scott_xP said:

    A semicircular chamber might, I've heard suggested, encourage more lateral thinking and co-operation.

    Holyrood waves hello...
    And the Send, but do you get the same amount of jeering and fist-waving? Or is that a male thing?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,451

    I've just watched through the pilot episode of our new politics YouTube channel. Just like the launch of GBeebies there are some technical tweaks to make, but broadly I think it works.

    I'll say more when we're ready to launch it (likely next week), but this is going to be a whole load of fun. How much can I get away with saying before my party suspends me lol

    UK-focused or looking overseas too?
    Very much UK focused. Not planning to discuss the whys and wherefores of foreign crises unless they are directly impacting onto the UK.

    So as an example I am completely chill for Americans to vote for Trump and for him to asset strip their pensions. The bit that is relevant is the impact of tariffs here. Same with the gutting of NATO and our need to rearm - how we find the money here and what it does for our economy.

    And we're very much not just wanting to be commentators. We need wholesale reforms of the UK, and we're going to talk through the framework of the Big Picture stuff which we can then pin all the political crises onto.

    In essence: Reform are on track to win the next election by talking Big Picture and offering simplistic solutions. You can't combat that by ignoring the real issues or by trying to outflank them, you need to out-think them. And you can't do that within the confines of a single political party and the pressures of the parliamentary grind...
    It's sometimes suggested that part of the 'British Problem' is our parliamentary structure; a chamber with two sides, Government facing Opposition, two swords (!) length apart.
    A semicircular chamber might, I've heard suggested, encourage more lateral thinking and co-operation.
    Don't they have a semi-circle in Congress? And Germany, where the AfD is rising?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,453

    I've just watched through the pilot episode of our new politics YouTube channel. Just like the launch of GBeebies there are some technical tweaks to make, but broadly I think it works.

    I'll say more when we're ready to launch it (likely next week), but this is going to be a whole load of fun. How much can I get away with saying before my party suspends me lol

    UK-focused or looking overseas too?
    Very much UK focused. Not planning to discuss the whys and wherefores of foreign crises unless they are directly impacting onto the UK.

    So as an example I am completely chill for Americans to vote for Trump and for him to asset strip their pensions. The bit that is relevant is the impact of tariffs here. Same with the gutting of NATO and our need to rearm - how we find the money here and what it does for our economy.

    And we're very much not just wanting to be commentators. We need wholesale reforms of the UK, and we're going to talk through the framework of the Big Picture stuff which we can then pin all the political crises onto.

    In essence: Reform are on track to win the next election by talking Big Picture and offering simplistic solutions. You can't combat that by ignoring the real issues or by trying to outflank them, you need to out-think them. And you can't do that within the confines of a single political party and the pressures of the parliamentary grind...
    It's sometimes suggested that part of the 'British Problem' is our parliamentary structure; a chamber with two sides, Government facing Opposition, two swords (!) length apart.
    A semicircular chamber might, I've heard suggested, encourage more lateral thinking and co-operation.
    I find it hard to imagine that it's a strong effect. Perhaps stronger to my mind is the sense of tradition and responsibility that are represented by the current distinguished set-up.

    (Even the daftest of MPs generally behave in the HoC)

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,831
    I think the key fact from that poll is more Americans want to work in a factory than currently do.

    That also explains the vote for Trump as in the rustbelt manufacturing jobs were better paid than most jobs
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,644
    Canadian election getting dirty:

    https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal_election/spread-of-fake-campaign-pins-disgusting-says-senior-tory

    "Two Liberal staffers made fake, Trump-style buttons and planted them at a conference of Canadian conservatives last week. But they were exposed after they discussed the plot at an Ottawa bar and were overheard by a CBC reporter."
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,116

    I've just watched through the pilot episode of our new politics YouTube channel. Just like the launch of GBeebies there are some technical tweaks to make, but broadly I think it works.

    I'll say more when we're ready to launch it (likely next week), but this is going to be a whole load of fun. How much can I get away with saying before my party suspends me lol

    UK-focused or looking overseas too?
    Very much UK focused. Not planning to discuss the whys and wherefores of foreign crises unless they are directly impacting onto the UK.

    So as an example I am completely chill for Americans to vote for Trump and for him to asset strip their pensions. The bit that is relevant is the impact of tariffs here. Same with the gutting of NATO and our need to rearm - how we find the money here and what it does for our economy.

    And we're very much not just wanting to be commentators. We need wholesale reforms of the UK, and we're going to talk through the framework of the Big Picture stuff which we can then pin all the political crises onto.

    In essence: Reform are on track to win the next election by talking Big Picture and offering simplistic solutions. You can't combat that by ignoring the real issues or by trying to outflank them, you need to out-think them. And you can't do that within the confines of a single political party and the pressures of the parliamentary grind...
    It's sometimes suggested that part of the 'British Problem' is our parliamentary structure; a chamber with two sides, Government facing Opposition, two swords (!) length apart.
    A semicircular chamber might, I've heard suggested, encourage more lateral thinking and co-operation.
    Don't they have a semi-circle in Congress? And Germany, where the AfD is rising?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemicycle
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