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Perhaps the government will not get the blame – politicalbetting.com

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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,975

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Trump says Keir Starmer is very happy with US tariff treatment

    Also went on to say Trump and his team are very bullish and gone off to Florida and no doubt the golf course

    In response to @Cicero Trump owns this 100%

    Either Trump is a liar or Starmer is an idiot, or both.
    You doubt Trump is a liar? That seems idiotic to me.

    Who on earth other than Trump thinks Starmer is happy to see tariffs slapped on UK exports to the US?
    It's all relative. The UK is now a relatively more advantageous place from which to export to the US than it was last week.
    Duh! You really have swallowed the MAGA cult BS. There is NOTHING positive about this for UK, and those that are claiming a "Brexshit dividend" need to realise that we are not part of the negotiating bloc that is most likely to face Trump down and therefore have to supinely grovel to him instead. This is where populism leads; collective stupidity and business and economic illiteracy.
    The idea that the EU will "face Trump down" on trade rests on the assumption that Trump isn't serious about his stated objectives.
    They are not really objectives, they are more like brain farts.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,657

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't think Trumpski is going to win the Nobel peace prize

    I also don't think he's going to win the economics prize either

    By providing an actual demonstration on the consequence of tariffs and why they don't work if the Nobel committee cared about the real world he could win it.

    Sadly the Nobel committee is concerned about theories and real world reality usually gets in the way in Economics because the numerous side factors usually override the theory..
    As an experiment, it feels more like the ones that the IgNobel judges celebrate.

    Is there a Darwin Award for Economics?
    If there isn't, there should be. Trump the first ever winner...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,525
    Scott_xP said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't think Trumpski is going to win the Nobel peace prize

    I also don't think he's going to win the economics prize either

    By providing an actual demonstration on the consequence of tariffs and why they don't work if the Nobel committee cared about the real world he could win it.

    Sadly the Nobel committee is concerned about theories and real world reality usually gets in the way in Economics because the numerous side factors usually override the theory..
    As an experiment, it feels more like the ones that the IgNobel judges celebrate.

    Is there a Darwin Award for Economics?
    If there isn't, there should be. Trump the first ever winner...
    That's a bit off brand for you. I thought Britain was the inaugural winner in 2016?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,424

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think the finishing sentence is the correct one - people expect the government to be able to stop it.

    We have lived through two extraordinary events in the past few years - Covid and Ukraine - and in both the government stepped in to mitigate the issues through furlough and the energy payments. I am fairly convinced that a lot of people now think the government is able to do this any time there are negative economic outcomes. This has not been helped by the very poor coverage of what all this spending meant long term - the media were poor at questioning it; and the opposition at the time wanted more of it.

    Agree completely. Our complete overreaction in respect of energy bills with the government running in terror of that idiot Martin Lewis in particular did very serious lasting harm to the country and our future wealth. The poor need protected with targeted benefits. The rest of us should have been left to get on with it.
    I disagree.

    There is far too much emphasis on 'protecting the poor' at the expense of the average person.

    Its often said that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes.

    Well they're wrong, there's another, the poor.

    No matter how much money is given to them, no matter how many freebies are donated to them, no matter how many opportunities are created for them the poor keep on increasing in numbers.

    Here are the next generation of 'the poor':

    More than half a million young people who are not working or studying have never had a job, an analysis has found.

    Most of those not in education, employment or training (Neet) are also not looking for a job and an increasing number report sickness as the main reason.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/young-people-work-training-benefits-fgdg998tk

    After them will follow most of the SEND kids currently bankrupting local councils.
    What an absolutely crass post.

    What is your remedy? A cull.

    I agree too many people are reliant on benefits, and that is a culture that needs to be changed, but until that culture is changed, morality suggests we can't let these people starve. That is one of my issues over the cruelty of "Austerity 2.0".
    You think the poor are starving ?

    Obesity is highest among the poor.

    Grotty takeaways abound in deprived areas.

    Talk to a school dinner lady about how much free food is given to the poor and you'll be surprised.

    The poor have more in common with Mr Creosote than they do with any 'hungry thirties' stereotype.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,657
    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    The parents of the girl in Texas that died of measles are part of a "religious community"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,335

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think the finishing sentence is the correct one - people expect the government to be able to stop it.

    We have lived through two extraordinary events in the past few years - Covid and Ukraine - and in both the government stepped in to mitigate the issues through furlough and the energy payments. I am fairly convinced that a lot of people now think the government is able to do this any time there are negative economic outcomes. This has not been helped by the very poor coverage of what all this spending meant long term - the media were poor at questioning it; and the opposition at the time wanted more of it.

    Agree completely. Our complete overreaction in respect of energy bills with the government running in terror of that idiot Martin Lewis in particular did very serious lasting harm to the country and our future wealth. The poor need protected with targeted benefits. The rest of us should have been left to get on with it.
    I disagree.

    There is far too much emphasis on 'protecting the poor' at the expense of the average person.

    Its often said that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes.

    Well they're wrong, there's another, the poor.

    No matter how much money is given to them, no matter how many freebies are donated to them, no matter how many opportunities are created for them the poor keep on increasing in numbers.

    Here are the next generation of 'the poor':

    More than half a million young people who are not working or studying have never had a job, an analysis has found.

    Most of those not in education, employment or training (Neet) are also not looking for a job and an increasing number report sickness as the main reason.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/young-people-work-training-benefits-fgdg998tk

    After them will follow most of the SEND kids currently bankrupting local councils.
    What an absolutely crass post.

    What is your remedy? A cull.

    I agree too many people are reliant on benefits, and that is a culture that needs to be changed, but until that culture is changed, morality suggests we can't let these people starve. That is one of my issues over the cruelty of "Austerity 2.0".
    Identifying a problem is easier than Identifying a solution. You appear to agree with the identification of the problem as a cultural one, but your criticism largely appears to be from a presumed solution not explicitly stated, though perhaps implied.

    In any case the important first step of agreeing its a problem can still be done even if people haven't figured out solutions yet. Its better than the country fooling itself its not a problem.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,060
    TimS said:

    Roger said:

    While looking for places to avoid the Bamfords food businesses I came across this.....

    Some odd inclusions and some even odder inclusions

    https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/britains-15-poshest-towns-in-2025-032425

    I suspect both the Telegraph and the Time Out articles were written by journalists who had never visited the places they were writing about. Cheltenham is not the genteel spa town it once was, and Penarth? Neither a Waitrose nor a branch of Gail's in sight (they closed the Waitrose in nearby Barry a few years back) just itinerant Spectator columnists hiding from "the" COVID.
    Most of them are niceish towns. But not really posh. We stayed for a couple of days in Holt last year. Very nice, quite upmarket but not posh posh. Ludlow: nice but not posh. Stamford likewise.

    A better headline would be “pleasant towns it’s worth visiting”.
    There is also a big difference between “posh” and “moneyed”. I know a couple of people who have recently bought around Bruton. Mid nine figure millionaires and have done so so their children can be at home a lot whilst at school.

    They would never be described as Pish but are wealthy. They were saying that a large number of others who they know in the area are similar.

    There are lots of places in the likes of Hampshire and Norfolk for example that are properly posh, subtle wealth, old money, battered land rovers etc but they don’t make an interesting listicle for journalists.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,975
    edited April 4

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think the finishing sentence is the correct one - people expect the government to be able to stop it.

    We have lived through two extraordinary events in the past few years - Covid and Ukraine - and in both the government stepped in to mitigate the issues through furlough and the energy payments. I am fairly convinced that a lot of people now think the government is able to do this any time there are negative economic outcomes. This has not been helped by the very poor coverage of what all this spending meant long term - the media were poor at questioning it; and the opposition at the time wanted more of it.

    Agree completely. Our complete overreaction in respect of energy bills with the government running in terror of that idiot Martin Lewis in particular did very serious lasting harm to the country and our future wealth. The poor need protected with targeted benefits. The rest of us should have been left to get on with it.
    I disagree.

    There is far too much emphasis on 'protecting the poor' at the expense of the average person.

    Its often said that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes.

    Well they're wrong, there's another, the poor.

    No matter how much money is given to them, no matter how many freebies are donated to them, no matter how many opportunities are created for them the poor keep on increasing in numbers.

    Here are the next generation of 'the poor':

    More than half a million young people who are not working or studying have never had a job, an analysis has found.

    Most of those not in education, employment or training (Neet) are also not looking for a job and an increasing number report sickness as the main reason.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/young-people-work-training-benefits-fgdg998tk

    After them will follow most of the SEND kids currently bankrupting local councils.
    What an absolutely crass post.

    What is your remedy? A cull.

    I agree too many people are reliant on benefits, and that is a culture that needs to be changed, but until that culture is changed, morality suggests we can't let these people starve. That is one of my issues over the cruelty of "Austerity 2.0".
    You think the poor are starving ?

    Obesity is highest among the poor.

    Grotty takeaways abound in deprived areas.

    Talk to a school dinner lady about how much free food is given to the poor and you'll be surprised.

    The poor have more in common with Mr Creosote than they do with any 'hungry thirties' stereotype.
    Could you have added any more stereotypes to your post?

    Oh wait, they are not spending their Giros on bread for their children but White Lightening and fags. If they can't afford fresh fruit and vegetables for their children they should cancel Netflix.

    I seem to recall you were a big fan of a Prime Minister known for egregious freeloading. It looks like he overdid it on the Aldi value sliced bread.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,621

    ...

    Fpt @rcs1000 re: politicians who impress

    I’ve had the pleasure (sic) of getting to know many politicians well over the years.

    Those that impressed: Paddy Mayhew, David Trimble, Paddy Ashdown, Norman Fowler, Quintin Hogg, Micky Ancram, John Smith

    Those that stood out on the other side: Cameron, Osborne, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine, Tony Blair.

    Has Ancram ever been on anyone else's "impressive" list? I met him once at a customer's premises in Brecon during the 2005 election. He was a perfectly amenable chap, and the sort the Conservatives would do well to recruit these days. But impressive?

    I note only Tories on your "unimpressive" list.😂
    The amiability was a mask. He was incredibly effective when he needed to be. Knew where all the bodies were buried and could call on favours stretching back generations…

    There are lots of unimpressive Labour politicians as well but I don’t know them as much… Dobson for example…

  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,302

    ...

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    While looking for places to avoid the Bamfords food businesses I came across this.....

    Some odd inclusions and some even odder inclusions

    https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/britains-15-poshest-towns-in-2025-032425

    Bruton is always a complete mystery to me. A couple of oppressive narrow streets with too much traffic, set in a rather dark valley - what's to like?

    For some reason it's been colonised by emigrés from Islington, presumably because it's got a couple of private schools and a train line to London.

    PS What are the Bamford's food businesses - are they part of the JCB empire?
    Yes they certainly are. The dynasty started with Dad and then to the family. An 'advisor' to David Cameron.... a seat in the House of Lords .....an everyday tale of English country folk.
    How will Boris Johnson survive without the food parcels from Lady Bamford?
    I've been worrying about the same thing myself. Maybe when they've finished the factory they can set up a Texas Wellness cattle ranch and spa?.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,244
    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    "Christendom", part-of-USA style.

    The last time we had that here to some extent was probably in the 1st decade of the 1900s.

    We do have emoto-tropes here too, which is part of social ritual. One is "I'm sorry for your loss", and "Thoughts and Prayers" becomes "I'll be thinking of you".

    IMO it becomes dangerous when the mix of the beliefs (with or without religion) and the treatment becomes irrational.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,157

    Fpt @rcs1000 re: politicians who impress

    I’ve had the pleasure (sic) of getting to know many politicians well over the years.

    Those that impressed: Paddy Mayhew, David Trimble, Paddy Ashdown, Norman Fowler, Quintin Hogg, Micky Ancram, John Smith

    Those that stood out on the other side: Cameron, Osborne, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine, Tony Blair.

    Ken Clarke?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,975
    edited April 4

    ...

    Fpt @rcs1000 re: politicians who impress

    I’ve had the pleasure (sic) of getting to know many politicians well over the years.

    Those that impressed: Paddy Mayhew, David Trimble, Paddy Ashdown, Norman Fowler, Quintin Hogg, Micky Ancram, John Smith

    Those that stood out on the other side: Cameron, Osborne, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine, Tony Blair.

    Has Ancram ever been on anyone else's "impressive" list? I met him once at a customer's premises in Brecon during the 2005 election. He was a perfectly amenable chap, and the sort the Conservatives would do well to recruit these days. But impressive?

    I note only Tories on your "unimpressive" list.😂
    The amiability was a mask. He was incredibly effective when he needed to be. Knew where all the bodies were buried and could call on favours stretching back generations…

    There are lots of unimpressive Labour politicians as well but I don’t know them as much… Dobson for example…

    It was a joke ( Blair). Yes Dobbo was particularly unimpressive. My own particular favourite incompetent was Hoon.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,132
    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    On the thoughts and prayers thing, a LOT more of the former and give the latter a rest might be useful.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,996
    MattW said:

    Cicero said:

    The stunned silence on the US right after Trump´s Tariff of Misfortune game show performance has been quite remarkable. I think the backlash will take a little while to come, since the scale of the disaster is so immense that it takes a while to grasp it, especially for the knuckle draggers n the GOP congressional delegation.

    However, after the absolute rout across global markets it is pretty clear that Trump is facing a choice: walk back from this disaster or own it.

    I think that the need for "time to sink in" is true about a lot of things Trump. That's one reason why he tries to create facts on the ground, whether legally or illegally, before checks and balances can kick into action.

    Before the Election many could not believe - even in informed circles - that they were getting an Erdogan, a Chavez, or an Idi Amin *, or the implications of electing a career criminal, or a party that had become a Trump Family operation, or the implications of lunatic economic policies or previous outright denial of electoral manipulation.

    The same goes for Trump burning down the rule of law as it applies to him and his Government, and internationally, and his attempts politically to instrumentralise tariffs and the USA's military.

    * He's not at Amin yet, imo - Judges are not yet physically in prison being beaten to a pulp.
    It was entirely predictable, and predicted, that he would govern in this manner.
    There was a slim chance he wouldn't, but it was clear within days of his taking office that he wasn't going to surprise on the upside.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,244
    edited April 4

    ...

    Fpt @rcs1000 re: politicians who impress

    I’ve had the pleasure (sic) of getting to know many politicians well over the years.

    Those that impressed: Paddy Mayhew, David Trimble, Paddy Ashdown, Norman Fowler, Quintin Hogg, Micky Ancram, John Smith

    Those that stood out on the other side: Cameron, Osborne, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine, Tony Blair.

    Has Ancram ever been on anyone else's "impressive" list? I met him once at a customer's premises in Brecon during the 2005 election. He was a perfectly amenable chap, and the sort the Conservatives would do well to recruit these days. But impressive?

    I note only Tories on your "unimpressive" list.😂
    The amiability was a mask. He was incredibly effective when he needed to be. Knew where all the bodies were buried and could call on favours stretching back generations…

    There are lots of unimpressive Labour politicians as well but I don’t know them as much… Dobson for example…

    It was a joke ( Blair). Yes Dobbo was particularly unimpressive. My own particular favourite incompetent was Hoon.
    As in Geoff "The Complete" Hoon? Geoff Hooney McHoon of Hoonville?

    I concur.

    Hoon: Australian for goon.

    The most prominent equivalent for that now is Gwyneth Paltrow calling her business "Goop", which is a perfect description of people who buy jade eggs and vagina steamers from her.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/gwyneth-paltrow-didnt-want-goop-articles-fact-checked-monetize-eyeballs-2018-7
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Trump says Keir Starmer is very happy with US tariff treatment

    Also went on to say Trump and his team are very bullish and gone off to Florida and no doubt the golf course

    In response to @Cicero Trump owns this 100%

    Either Trump is a liar or Starmer is an idiot, or both.
    You doubt Trump is a liar? That seems idiotic to me.

    Who on earth other than Trump thinks Starmer is happy to see tariffs slapped on UK exports to the US?
    It's all relative. The UK is now a relatively more advantageous place from which to export to the US than it was last week.
    Duh! You really have swallowed the MAGA cult BS. There is NOTHING positive about this for UK, and those that are claiming a "Brexshit dividend" need to realise that we are not part of the negotiating bloc that is most likely to face Trump down and therefore have to supinely grovel to him instead. This is where populism leads; collective stupidity and business and economic illiteracy.
    The idea that the EU will "face Trump down" on trade rests on the assumption that Trump isn't serious about his stated objectives.
    The balance of probabilities is that Trump isn't serious about these objectives. Two reasons.

    The boring technical one is that his objectives (fund the government and reduce imports) contradict.

    The fundamental one is that Trump is not, and never has been, a serious individual.
    I don't think it should be underestimated how much the driver of what he says and does is simply to own the news. IMO so long as he's got the world's attention 24/7 that is primary objective achieved. You can go badly wrong if you try to find any 'plan' other than that. Planning requires an ability to see beyond the next couple of hours or days, it requires deferred gratification, and there's no evidence of this. It's like America, and therefore the world, is a toy in the hands of a maladjusted child.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,886
    FTSE opens down and continues to fall.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,324
    Sitrep: Tashkent Airport


    Small, clean, efficient, but absurdly rigorous security. Fear of Islamists?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think the finishing sentence is the correct one - people expect the government to be able to stop it.

    We have lived through two extraordinary events in the past few years - Covid and Ukraine - and in both the government stepped in to mitigate the issues through furlough and the energy payments. I am fairly convinced that a lot of people now think the government is able to do this any time there are negative economic outcomes. This has not been helped by the very poor coverage of what all this spending meant long term - the media were poor at questioning it; and the opposition at the time wanted more of it.

    Agree completely. Our complete overreaction in respect of energy bills with the government running in terror of that idiot Martin Lewis in particular did very serious lasting harm to the country and our future wealth. The poor need protected with targeted benefits. The rest of us should have been left to get on with it.
    I disagree.

    There is far too much emphasis on 'protecting the poor' at the expense of the average person.

    Its often said that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes.

    Well they're wrong, there's another, the poor.

    No matter how much money is given to them, no matter how many freebies are donated to them, no matter how many opportunities are created for them the poor keep on increasing in numbers.

    Here are the next generation of 'the poor':

    More than half a million young people who are not working or studying have never had a job, an analysis has found.

    Most of those not in education, employment or training (Neet) are also not looking for a job and an increasing number report sickness as the main reason.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/young-people-work-training-benefits-fgdg998tk

    After them will follow most of the SEND kids currently bankrupting local councils.
    What an absolutely crass post.

    What is your remedy? A cull.

    I agree too many people are reliant on benefits, and that is a culture that needs to be changed, but until that culture is changed, morality suggests we can't let these people starve. That is one of my issues over the cruelty of "Austerity 2.0".
    You think the poor are starving ?

    Obesity is highest among the poor.

    Grotty takeaways abound in deprived areas.

    Talk to a school dinner lady about how much free food is given to the poor and you'll be surprised.

    The poor have more in common with Mr Creosote than they do with any 'hungry thirties' stereotype.
    Could you have added any more stereotypes to your post?

    Oh wait, they are not spending their Giros on bread for their children but White Lightening and fags. If they can't afford fresh fruit and vegetables for their children they should cancel Netflix.

    I seem to recall you were a big fan of a Prime Minister known for egregious freeloading. It looks like he overdid it on the Aldi value sliced bread.
    The bag of chips vs healthy food choice by many poor people has been debated since before Orwell. Who explained the reasons pretty well.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,057
    kinabalu said:

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Trump says Keir Starmer is very happy with US tariff treatment

    Also went on to say Trump and his team are very bullish and gone off to Florida and no doubt the golf course

    In response to @Cicero Trump owns this 100%

    Either Trump is a liar or Starmer is an idiot, or both.
    You doubt Trump is a liar? That seems idiotic to me.

    Who on earth other than Trump thinks Starmer is happy to see tariffs slapped on UK exports to the US?
    It's all relative. The UK is now a relatively more advantageous place from which to export to the US than it was last week.
    Duh! You really have swallowed the MAGA cult BS. There is NOTHING positive about this for UK, and those that are claiming a "Brexshit dividend" need to realise that we are not part of the negotiating bloc that is most likely to face Trump down and therefore have to supinely grovel to him instead. This is where populism leads; collective stupidity and business and economic illiteracy.
    The idea that the EU will "face Trump down" on trade rests on the assumption that Trump isn't serious about his stated objectives.
    The balance of probabilities is that Trump isn't serious about these objectives. Two reasons.

    The boring technical one is that his objectives (fund the government and reduce imports) contradict.

    The fundamental one is that Trump is not, and never has been, a serious individual.
    I don't think it should be underestimated how much the driver of what he says and does is simply to own the news. IMO so long as he's got the world's attention 24/7 that is primary objective achieved. You can go badly wrong if you try to find any 'plan' other than that. Planning requires an ability to see beyond the next couple of hours or days, it requires deferred gratification, and there's no evidence of this. It's like America, and therefore the world, is a toy in the hands of a maladjusted child.
    The inevitable result is the rest of the world trades less with America and more with each other. Not quite sure how that is supposed to help America, but they have made their choice (until they row it back).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,244
    edited April 4
    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    I think "Cromwell's England" is potentially very relevant. Over the last week or two I've been dipping in the Trumpvangelical / Nat Con pond, and there is a significant elevation of political aims to be alongside religious doctrine - a serious category error that makes persuasion very difficult, since reason is often not applicable.

    An example is "woke" and "deep state" being characterised as an alternative religion that must be destroyed because it is "evil", including in prayers. There is similar stuff around abortion. That type of attitude makes the collateral damage being done by Musk's random cuts seem acceptable.

    It's one comparison I have been reflecting on. Another is Trump as one of those 13 year old Medieval Kings who just randomly demand things because he can and it is about their power not the consequences, that devastate ordinary people.

    That happens less afaics amongst the Catholic-Right or Jewish wings of Trump's support coalition.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,424

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think the finishing sentence is the correct one - people expect the government to be able to stop it.

    We have lived through two extraordinary events in the past few years - Covid and Ukraine - and in both the government stepped in to mitigate the issues through furlough and the energy payments. I am fairly convinced that a lot of people now think the government is able to do this any time there are negative economic outcomes. This has not been helped by the very poor coverage of what all this spending meant long term - the media were poor at questioning it; and the opposition at the time wanted more of it.

    Agree completely. Our complete overreaction in respect of energy bills with the government running in terror of that idiot Martin Lewis in particular did very serious lasting harm to the country and our future wealth. The poor need protected with targeted benefits. The rest of us should have been left to get on with it.
    I disagree.

    There is far too much emphasis on 'protecting the poor' at the expense of the average person.

    Its often said that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes.

    Well they're wrong, there's another, the poor.

    No matter how much money is given to them, no matter how many freebies are donated to them, no matter how many opportunities are created for them the poor keep on increasing in numbers.

    Here are the next generation of 'the poor':

    More than half a million young people who are not working or studying have never had a job, an analysis has found.

    Most of those not in education, employment or training (Neet) are also not looking for a job and an increasing number report sickness as the main reason.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/young-people-work-training-benefits-fgdg998tk

    After them will follow most of the SEND kids currently bankrupting local councils.
    What an absolutely crass post.

    What is your remedy? A cull.

    I agree too many people are reliant on benefits, and that is a culture that needs to be changed, but until that culture is changed, morality suggests we can't let these people starve. That is one of my issues over the cruelty of "Austerity 2.0".
    You think the poor are starving ?

    Obesity is highest among the poor.

    Grotty takeaways abound in deprived areas.

    Talk to a school dinner lady about how much free food is given to the poor and you'll be surprised.

    The poor have more in common with Mr Creosote than they do with any 'hungry thirties' stereotype.
    Could you have added any more stereotypes to your post?

    Oh wait, they are not spending their Giros on bread for their children but White Lightening and fags. If they can't afford fresh fruit and vegetables for their children they should cancel Netflix.

    I seem to recall you were a big fan of a Prime Minister known for egregious freeloading. It looks like he overdid it on the Aldi value sliced bread.
    As so often you recall wrongly.

    Boris had his positive attributes but his inability to show any sort of self-discipline led to him losing my support. Amusingly he will live the rest of his life wondering what might have been and hopefully realising that it was his own failings that led to his downfall.

    And those stereotypes of the poor exist for a reason, the reason being that they're largely true.

    Now there are many people from deprived backgrounds who do improve their lives - it is those people who do the right thing that deserve support. Not those who wallow their whole lives on welfare.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,057
    Not met any Prime Ministers, ministers, MPs, or even councillors, but there was a kid at middle school who wanted to be PM one day, does that count? Whatever happened to him I wonder.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,437
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think the finishing sentence is the correct one - people expect the government to be able to stop it.

    We have lived through two extraordinary events in the past few years - Covid and Ukraine - and in both the government stepped in to mitigate the issues through furlough and the energy payments. I am fairly convinced that a lot of people now think the government is able to do this any time there are negative economic outcomes. This has not been helped by the very poor coverage of what all this spending meant long term - the media were poor at questioning it; and the opposition at the time wanted more of it.

    Agree completely. Our complete overreaction in respect of energy bills with the government running in terror of that idiot Martin Lewis in particular did very serious lasting harm to the country and our future wealth. The poor need protected with targeted benefits. The rest of us should have been left to get on with it.
    That's easy for you to say...
    That was his point wasnt it? A lot of people were included for whom it was easy to say?
    ...
    ?
    I dont know how to put it more simply. Your comment seemed to reinforce his point.
    ..?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,214
    MattW said:

    ...

    Fpt @rcs1000 re: politicians who impress

    I’ve had the pleasure (sic) of getting to know many politicians well over the years.

    Those that impressed: Paddy Mayhew, David Trimble, Paddy Ashdown, Norman Fowler, Quintin Hogg, Micky Ancram, John Smith

    Those that stood out on the other side: Cameron, Osborne, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine, Tony Blair.

    Has Ancram ever been on anyone else's "impressive" list? I met him once at a customer's premises in Brecon during the 2005 election. He was a perfectly amenable chap, and the sort the Conservatives would do well to recruit these days. But impressive?

    I note only Tories on your "unimpressive" list.😂
    The amiability was a mask. He was incredibly effective when he needed to be. Knew where all the bodies were buried and could call on favours stretching back generations…

    There are lots of unimpressive Labour politicians as well but I don’t know them as much… Dobson for example…

    It was a joke ( Blair). Yes Dobbo was particularly unimpressive. My own particular favourite incompetent was Hoon.
    As in Geoff "The Complete" Hoon? Geoff Hooney McHoon of Hoonville?

    I concur.

    Hoon: Australian for goon.

    The most prominent equivalent for that now is Gwyneth Paltrow calling her business "Goop", which is a perfect description of people who buy jade eggs and vagina steamers from her.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/gwyneth-paltrow-didnt-want-goop-articles-fact-checked-monetize-eyeballs-2018-7
    Wasn't he known as Buff?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,302
    I'm sure there will be a few tears on here. I won't insult anyone by naming the regular quoters from his uniquely nasty site but I'm delighted. A more loathsome creature doesn't even exist in fiction. Someone without a saving grace.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,844
    edited April 4
    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    "Christendom", part-of-USA style.

    The last time we had that here to some extent was probably in the 1st decade of the 1900s.

    We do have emoto-tropes here too, which is part of social ritual. One is "I'm sorry for your loss", and "Thoughts and Prayers" becomes "I'll be thinking of you".

    IMO it becomes dangerous when the mix of the beliefs (with or without religion) and the treatment becomes irrational.
    Most people in most of the world at most times live their lives in some way in relation to there being a god/gods/higher powers. (BTW, I am one of them). To an anthropologist that's just normality; within which is an infinite diversity of expression.

    USA Christendom varies from snake handling and 'Jesus, guns, babies, bombs' to Choral Evensong at St Thomas Fifth Avenue. Like groceries to Trump, it's a bag with things in it. This is not amazing.

    USA is more 'normal' than north Europe in that society as a whole, including for example east coast intellectuals, take religion as a serious category for understanding the human condition.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,621

    Roger said:

    While looking for places to avoid the Bamfords food businesses I came across this.....

    Some odd inclusions and some even odder inclusions

    https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/britains-15-poshest-towns-in-2025-032425

    Bruton is always a complete mystery to me. A couple of oppressive narrow streets with too much traffic, set in a rather dark valley - what's to like?

    For some reason it's been colonised by emigrés from Islington, presumably because it's got a couple of private schools and a train line to London.

    PS What are the Bamford's food businesses - are they part of the JCB
    empire?
    Daylsford Organic was set up and is run by Lady Bamford
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    edited April 4
    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    I think "Cromwell's England" is potentially very relevant. Over the last week or two I've been dipping in the Trumpvangelical / Nat Con pond, and there is a significant elevation of political aims to be alongside religious doctrine - a serious category error that makes persuasion very difficult, since reason is often not applicable.

    An example is "woke" and "deep state" being characterised as an alternative religion that must be destroyed because it is "evil", including in prayers. There is similar stuff around abortion. That type of attitude makes the collateral damage being done by Musk's random cuts seem acceptable.

    It's one comparison I have been reflecting on. Another is Trump as one of those 13 year old Medieval Kings who just randomly demand things because he can and it is about their power not the consequences, that devastate ordinary people.

    That happens less afaics amongst the Catholic-Right or Jewish wings of Trump's support coalition.
    "When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong, faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late."

    The separation of church and state was a deliberate act, based on historical examples.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,996
    S Korea shows the US how it should be done.
    They are not without their own version of a Trumpist style right wing, but they have an attachment to democracy which seems to be fading in the US.

    South Korea president Yoon Suk Yeol removed from office after court upholds impeachment (unanimously)
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/04/south-korea-president-yoon-suk-yeol-impeachment-verdict-results-removal
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 901

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think the finishing sentence is the correct one - people expect the government to be able to stop it.

    We have lived through two extraordinary events in the past few years - Covid and Ukraine - and in both the government stepped in to mitigate the issues through furlough and the energy payments. I am fairly convinced that a lot of people now think the government is able to do this any time there are negative economic outcomes. This has not been helped by the very poor coverage of what all this spending meant long term - the media were poor at questioning it; and the opposition at the time wanted more of it.

    Agree completely. Our complete overreaction in respect of energy bills with the government running in terror of that idiot Martin Lewis in particular did very serious lasting harm to the country and our future wealth. The poor need protected with targeted benefits. The rest of us should have been left to get on with it.
    I disagree.

    There is far too much emphasis on 'protecting the poor' at the expense of the average person.

    Its often said that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes.

    Well they're wrong, there's another, the poor.

    No matter how much money is given to them, no matter how many freebies are donated to them, no matter how many opportunities are created for them the poor keep on increasing in numbers.

    Here are the next generation of 'the poor':

    More than half a million young people who are not working or studying have never had a job, an analysis has found.

    Most of those not in education, employment or training (Neet) are also not looking for a job and an increasing number report sickness as the main reason.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/young-people-work-training-benefits-fgdg998tk

    After them will follow most of the SEND kids currently bankrupting local councils.
    What an absolutely crass post.

    What is your remedy? A cull.

    I agree too many people are reliant on benefits, and that is a culture that needs to be changed, but until that culture is changed, morality suggests we can't let these people starve. That is one of my issues over the cruelty of "Austerity 2.0".
    You think the poor are starving ?

    Obesity is highest among the poor.

    Grotty takeaways abound in deprived areas.

    Talk to a school dinner lady about how much free food is given to the poor and you'll be surprised.

    The poor have more in common with Mr Creosote than they do with any 'hungry thirties' stereotype.
    Could you have added any more stereotypes to your post?

    Oh wait, they are not spending their Giros on bread for their children but White Lightening and fags. If they can't afford fresh fruit and vegetables for their children they should cancel Netflix.

    I seem to recall you were a big fan of a Prime Minister known for egregious freeloading. It looks like he overdid it on the Aldi value sliced bread.
    The bag of chips vs healthy food choice by many poor people has been debated since before Orwell. Who explained the reasons pretty well.
    That when you're time and cash poor that you chose cheap, quick calories?
    The "tasty" reason may be why convenience food is saltier and sweeter but the lack of time to shop and cook, with associated cost, is another big driver.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,621

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Trump says Keir Starmer is very happy with US tariff treatment

    Also went on to say Trump and his team are very bullish and gone off to Florida and no doubt the golf course

    In response to @Cicero Trump owns this 100%

    Either Trump is a liar or Starmer is an idiot, or both.
    You doubt Trump is a liar? That seems idiotic to me.

    Who on earth other than Trump thinks Starmer is happy to see tariffs slapped on UK exports to the US?
    It's all relative. The UK is now a relatively more advantageous place from which to export to the US than it was last week.
    Duh! You really have swallowed the MAGA cult BS. There is NOTHING positive about this for UK, and those that are claiming a "Brexshit dividend" need to realise that we are not part of the negotiating bloc that is most likely to face Trump down and therefore have to supinely grovel to him instead. This is where populism leads; collective stupidity and business and
    economic illiteracy.
    We are not “supinely grovelling”

    We are coordinating with Macron. Good cop bad cop.

    It’s been hugely important in Ukraine for example
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    edited April 4

    Roger said:

    While looking for places to avoid the Bamfords food businesses I came across this.....

    Some odd inclusions and some even odder inclusions

    https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/britains-15-poshest-towns-in-2025-032425

    Bruton is always a complete mystery to me. A couple of oppressive narrow streets with too much traffic, set in a rather dark valley - what's to like?

    For some reason it's been colonised by emigrés from Islington, presumably because it's got a couple of private schools and a train line to London.

    PS What are the Bamford's food businesses - are they part of the JCB
    empire?
    Daylsford Organic was set up and is run by Lady Bamford
    There was a moment, still is perhaps, when the property ads in Country Life would include the line, when describing some pile or other: "Five minutes from Daylesford Organic".

    Wasn't it Daylesford that Clarkson went into to buy a basket of produce that was the catalyst for his farm shop.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,623
    MattW said:

    On tariffs, the BBC have a report on Scotch Whisky.

    Am I right a 10% tariff will be on the wholesale cost as delivered to the USA border, which would be on perhaps half of the retail, so an approx. 5% loading on retail price?

    Is the tariff also on the delivery charge?

    Anthony Wills runs the Kilchoman distillery on the island of Islay and says he feels "deflated" at the prospect of tariffs. "It's a huge blow for the industry," he says.

    "For us personally, it represents 10% of our sales. So it's clearly going to be a big blow, especially with the current economic headwinds that we're all experiencing, we're all going to find this very difficult and very challenging."

    The industry has been hit with US tariffs before, with a 25% levy on single malts back in 2019. The Scottish Whisky Association estimates that for the 18 months the tariffs were in place, the industry lost £600m in sales.

    Mr Wills says he split the cost of the tariff with his US importer so the price would stay the same for their American customers.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq80vyyln40o

    Americans might miss out on drinking exquisite single malts. Meanwhile we can all boycott Jack Daniels, and whatever other pish they claim to be whiskey, and drink more single malt whisky.

    A win for Britain.

    And I see the term "Tesla Tax" is already being used in the media.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,588

    Roger said:

    While looking for places to avoid the Bamfords food businesses I came across this.....

    Some odd inclusions and some even odder inclusions

    https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/britains-15-poshest-towns-in-2025-032425

    Bruton is always a complete mystery to me. A couple of oppressive narrow streets with too much traffic, set in a rather dark valley - what's to like?

    For some reason it's been colonised by emigrés from Islington, presumably because it's got a couple of private schools and a train line to London.

    PS What are the Bamford's food businesses - are they part of the JCB
    empire?
    Daylsford Organic was set up and is run by Lady Bamford
    It's a loss leader. It's effectively subsidised by the highly profitable Bamford businesses.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 901
    dixiedean said:

    FTSE opens down and continues to fall.

    Cheer up, we could be only weeks / months away from the point at which the GOP will pretend he became President for the purpose of calculating the "massive stockmarket boom" under the business genius.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,996
    I'm not sure this will be particularly helpful now.

    Trump offers backing for Marine Le Pen ahead of rally in Paris to show support for convicted politician
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/apr/04/marine-le-pen-rally-paris-emmanuel-macron-france-europe-latest-updates-news
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 901

    Roger said:

    While looking for places to avoid the Bamfords food businesses I came across this.....

    Some odd inclusions and some even odder inclusions

    https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/britains-15-poshest-towns-in-2025-032425

    Bruton is always a complete mystery to me. A couple of oppressive narrow streets with too much traffic, set in a rather dark valley - what's to like?

    For some reason it's been colonised by emigrés from Islington, presumably because it's got a couple of private schools and a train line to London.

    PS What are the Bamford's food businesses - are they part of the JCB
    empire?
    Daylsford Organic was set up and is run by Lady Bamford
    It's a loss leader. It's effectively subsidised by the highly profitable Bamford businesses.
    They lose money at those prices? Or is it just because of Bunter's massive free hampers?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,244

    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    I think "Cromwell's England" is potentially very relevant. Over the last week or two I've been dipping in the Trumpvangelical / Nat Con pond, and there is a significant elevation of political aims to be alongside religious doctrine - a serious category error that makes persuasion very difficult, since reason is often not applicable.

    An example is "woke" and "deep state" being characterised as an alternative religion that must be destroyed because it is "evil", including in prayers. There is similar stuff around abortion. That type of attitude makes the collateral damage being done by Musk's random cuts seem acceptable.

    It's one comparison I have been reflecting on. Another is Trump as one of those 13 year old Medieval Kings who just randomly demand things because he can and it is about their power not the consequences, that devastate ordinary people.

    That happens less afaics amongst the Catholic-Right or Jewish wings of Trump's support coalition.
    "When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong, faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late."

    The separation of church and state was a deliberate act, based on historical examples.
    Yes - but there was also a parallel tradition trying to combine church and state. That's what a lot of Trump-supporters want back. See also the Oath of Allegiance, or "In God we Trust" on the currency.

    That latter replaced "E Pluribus Unum" in the 1950s.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,553
    edited April 4
    TOPPING said:

    Roger said:

    While looking for places to avoid the Bamfords food businesses I came across this.....

    Some odd inclusions and some even odder inclusions

    https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/britains-15-poshest-towns-in-2025-032425

    Bruton is always a complete mystery to me. A couple of oppressive narrow streets with too much traffic, set in a rather dark valley - what's to like?

    For some reason it's been colonised by emigrés from Islington, presumably because it's got a couple of private schools and a train line to London.

    PS What are the Bamford's food businesses - are they part of the JCB
    empire?
    Daylsford Organic was set up and is run by Lady Bamford
    There was a moment, still is perhaps, when the property ads in Country Life would include the line, when describing some pile or other: "Five minutes from Daylesford Organic".

    Wasn't it Daylesford that Clarkson went into to buy a basket of produce that was the catalyst for his farm shop.
    Daylesford is fine, with the exception of the prices (50%-100% above reality) and the people.

    Mostly home furnishings and so though - the food part is nothing special.

    Now the Chatsworth House version - that's actually worth a visit.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,244
    edited April 4
    triplicate
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,244
    edited April 4
    duplicate
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    Dopermean said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think the finishing sentence is the correct one - people expect the government to be able to stop it.

    We have lived through two extraordinary events in the past few years - Covid and Ukraine - and in both the government stepped in to mitigate the issues through furlough and the energy payments. I am fairly convinced that a lot of people now think the government is able to do this any time there are negative economic outcomes. This has not been helped by the very poor coverage of what all this spending meant long term - the media were poor at questioning it; and the opposition at the time wanted more of it.

    Agree completely. Our complete overreaction in respect of energy bills with the government running in terror of that idiot Martin Lewis in particular did very serious lasting harm to the country and our future wealth. The poor need protected with targeted benefits. The rest of us should have been left to get on with it.
    I disagree.

    There is far too much emphasis on 'protecting the poor' at the expense of the average person.

    Its often said that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes.

    Well they're wrong, there's another, the poor.

    No matter how much money is given to them, no matter how many freebies are donated to them, no matter how many opportunities are created for them the poor keep on increasing in numbers.

    Here are the next generation of 'the poor':

    More than half a million young people who are not working or studying have never had a job, an analysis has found.

    Most of those not in education, employment or training (Neet) are also not looking for a job and an increasing number report sickness as the main reason.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/young-people-work-training-benefits-fgdg998tk

    After them will follow most of the SEND kids currently bankrupting local councils.
    What an absolutely crass post.

    What is your remedy? A cull.

    I agree too many people are reliant on benefits, and that is a culture that needs to be changed, but until that culture is changed, morality suggests we can't let these people starve. That is one of my issues over the cruelty of "Austerity 2.0".
    You think the poor are starving ?

    Obesity is highest among the poor.

    Grotty takeaways abound in deprived areas.

    Talk to a school dinner lady about how much free food is given to the poor and you'll be surprised.

    The poor have more in common with Mr Creosote than they do with any 'hungry thirties' stereotype.
    Could you have added any more stereotypes to your post?

    Oh wait, they are not spending their Giros on bread for their children but White Lightening and fags. If they can't afford fresh fruit and vegetables for their children they should cancel Netflix.

    I seem to recall you were a big fan of a Prime Minister known for egregious freeloading. It looks like he overdid it on the Aldi value sliced bread.
    The bag of chips vs healthy food choice by many poor people has been debated since before Orwell. Who explained the reasons pretty well.
    That when you're time and cash poor that you chose cheap, quick calories?
    The "tasty" reason may be why convenience food is saltier and sweeter but the lack of time to shop and cook, with associated cost, is another big driver.
    Pretty much that - plus the element of "treat" in a dull, painful life.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    This type of polling is likely to increase the chance Labour nationalises the utility companies, which was Labour policy under Corbyn
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,621
    Andy_JS said:

    Fpt @rcs1000 re: politicians who impress

    I’ve had the pleasure (sic) of getting to know many politicians well over the years.

    Those that impressed: Paddy Mayhew, David Trimble, Paddy Ashdown, Norman Fowler, Quintin Hogg, Micky Ancram, John Smith

    Those that stood out on the other side: Cameron, Osborne, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine, Tony Blair.

    Ken Clarke?
    So much wasted potential. Couldn't be arsed to do the necessary work
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,155

    MattW said:

    On tariffs, the BBC have a report on Scotch Whisky.

    Am I right a 10% tariff will be on the wholesale cost as delivered to the USA border, which would be on perhaps half of the retail, so an approx. 5% loading on retail price?

    Is the tariff also on the delivery charge?

    Anthony Wills runs the Kilchoman distillery on the island of Islay and says he feels "deflated" at the prospect of tariffs. "It's a huge blow for the industry," he says.

    "For us personally, it represents 10% of our sales. So it's clearly going to be a big blow, especially with the current economic headwinds that we're all experiencing, we're all going to find this very difficult and very challenging."

    The industry has been hit with US tariffs before, with a 25% levy on single malts back in 2019. The Scottish Whisky Association estimates that for the 18 months the tariffs were in place, the industry lost £600m in sales.

    Mr Wills says he split the cost of the tariff with his US importer so the price would stay the same for their American customers.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq80vyyln40o

    Americans might miss out on drinking exquisite single malts. Meanwhile we can all boycott Jack Daniels, and whatever other pish they claim to be whiskey, and drink more single malt whisky.

    A win for Britain.

    And I see the term "Tesla Tax" is already being used in the media.
    If the price stayed the same (as he split tariff with the importer) then why were sales hit???
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,588
    Roger said:

    I'm sure there will be a few tears on here. I won't insult anyone by naming the regular quoters from his uniquely nasty site but I'm delighted. A more loathsome creature doesn't even exist in fiction. Someone without a saving grace.
    Well, he got the bum's rush from this site long ago after misleading some punters (not me) over the Cash for Honours Inquiry. He's not been missed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    a

    MattW said:

    On tariffs, the BBC have a report on Scotch Whisky.

    Am I right a 10% tariff will be on the wholesale cost as delivered to the USA border, which would be on perhaps half of the retail, so an approx. 5% loading on retail price?

    Is the tariff also on the delivery charge?

    Anthony Wills runs the Kilchoman distillery on the island of Islay and says he feels "deflated" at the prospect of tariffs. "It's a huge blow for the industry," he says.

    "For us personally, it represents 10% of our sales. So it's clearly going to be a big blow, especially with the current economic headwinds that we're all experiencing, we're all going to find this very difficult and very challenging."

    The industry has been hit with US tariffs before, with a 25% levy on single malts back in 2019. The Scottish Whisky Association estimates that for the 18 months the tariffs were in place, the industry lost £600m in sales.

    Mr Wills says he split the cost of the tariff with his US importer so the price would stay the same for their American customers.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq80vyyln40o

    Americans might miss out on drinking exquisite single malts. Meanwhile we can all boycott Jack Daniels, and whatever other pish they claim to be whiskey, and drink more single malt whisky.

    A win for Britain.

    And I see the term "Tesla Tax" is already being used in the media.
    If the price stayed the same (as he split tariff with the importer) then why were sales hit???
    I presume he meant the profit from the sales.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    As for the Trumpaclysm there is nevertheless something amusing about people bemoaning the fall in stock prices when "middle America" won't even have a 401k let alone any direct investments in the market. It echoes the "whose GDP" issue in the UK. And when I say "middle America" I mean those people who voted for Trump. This might be what they wanted.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    carnforth said:

    TOPPING said:

    Roger said:

    While looking for places to avoid the Bamfords food businesses I came across this.....

    Some odd inclusions and some even odder inclusions

    https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/britains-15-poshest-towns-in-2025-032425

    Bruton is always a complete mystery to me. A couple of oppressive narrow streets with too much traffic, set in a rather dark valley - what's to like?

    For some reason it's been colonised by emigrés from Islington, presumably because it's got a couple of private schools and a train line to London.

    PS What are the Bamford's food businesses - are they part of the JCB
    empire?
    Daylsford Organic was set up and is run by Lady Bamford
    There was a moment, still is perhaps, when the property ads in Country Life would include the line, when describing some pile or other: "Five minutes from Daylesford Organic".

    Wasn't it Daylesford that Clarkson went into to buy a basket of produce that was the catalyst for his farm shop.
    Daylesford is fine, with the exception of the prices (50%-100% above reality) and the people.

    Mostly home furnishings and so though - the food part is nothing special.

    Now the Chatsworth House version - that's actually worth a visit.
    For me the key indicator is that they have a branch in Pimlico Road. Pimlico Road, as many listeners might be aware, is choc full of antique shops (including David Linley's) in which, it appears, there are never any customers.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,163
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    I think "Cromwell's England" is potentially very relevant. Over the last week or two I've been dipping in the Trumpvangelical / Nat Con pond, and there is a significant elevation of political aims to be alongside religious doctrine - a serious category error that makes persuasion very difficult, since reason is often not applicable.

    An example is "woke" and "deep state" being characterised as an alternative religion that must be destroyed because it is "evil", including in prayers. There is similar stuff around abortion. That type of attitude makes the collateral damage being done by Musk's random cuts seem acceptable.

    It's one comparison I have been reflecting on. Another is Trump as one of those 13 year old Medieval Kings who just randomly demand things because he can and it is about their power not the consequences, that devastate ordinary people.

    That happens less afaics amongst the Catholic-Right or Jewish wings of Trump's support coalition.
    "When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong, faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late."

    The separation of church and state was a deliberate act, based on historical examples.
    Yes - but there was also a parallel tradition trying to combine church and state. That's what a lot of Trump-supporters want back. See also the Oath of Allegiance, or "In God we Trust" on the currency.

    That latter replaced "E Pluribus Unum" in the 1950s.
    The separation of church and state was only ever intended to prevent any one Christian sect from achieving (or attempting) dominance over others on a national scale. Hardly anyone doubted that the US was, and should be, a Christian country, or that for practical purposes, denominations could establish areas of their own primacy.

    But that was then. Most of the West moved on from that thinking; the US hasn't.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,302

    Roger said:

    I'm sure there will be a few tears on here. I won't insult anyone by naming the regular quoters from his uniquely nasty site but I'm delighted. A more loathsome creature doesn't even exist in fiction. Someone without a saving grace.
    Well, he got the bum's rush from this site long ago after misleading some punters (not me) over the Cash for Honours Inquiry. He's not been missed.
    I didn't hear that story but he had no interest in truth and in many ways was the founder of the misleading 'news' outlets that now proliferate
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866

    MattW said:

    On tariffs, the BBC have a report on Scotch Whisky.

    Am I right a 10% tariff will be on the wholesale cost as delivered to the USA border, which would be on perhaps half of the retail, so an approx. 5% loading on retail price?

    Is the tariff also on the delivery charge?

    Anthony Wills runs the Kilchoman distillery on the island of Islay and says he feels "deflated" at the prospect of tariffs. "It's a huge blow for the industry," he says.

    "For us personally, it represents 10% of our sales. So it's clearly going to be a big blow, especially with the current economic headwinds that we're all experiencing, we're all going to find this very difficult and very challenging."

    The industry has been hit with US tariffs before, with a 25% levy on single malts back in 2019. The Scottish Whisky Association estimates that for the 18 months the tariffs were in place, the industry lost £600m in sales.

    Mr Wills says he split the cost of the tariff with his US importer so the price would stay the same for their American customers.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq80vyyln40o

    Americans might miss out on drinking exquisite single malts. Meanwhile we can all boycott Jack Daniels, and whatever other pish they claim to be whiskey, and drink more single malt whisky.

    A win for Britain.

    And I see the term "Tesla Tax" is already being used in the media.
    Your regular reminder that Jack Daniels is to American whisky what Johnnie Walker is to the Scottish stuff.

    Try Woodford Reserve.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    edited April 4

    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    I think "Cromwell's England" is potentially very relevant. Over the last week or two I've been dipping in the Trumpvangelical / Nat Con pond, and there is a significant elevation of political aims to be alongside religious doctrine - a serious category error that makes persuasion very difficult, since reason is often not applicable.

    An example is "woke" and "deep state" being characterised as an alternative religion that must be destroyed because it is "evil", including in prayers. There is similar stuff around abortion. That type of attitude makes the collateral damage being done by Musk's random cuts seem acceptable.

    It's one comparison I have been reflecting on. Another is Trump as one of those 13 year old Medieval Kings who just randomly demand things because he can and it is about their power not the consequences, that devastate ordinary people.

    That happens less afaics amongst the Catholic-Right or Jewish wings of Trump's support coalition.
    "When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong, faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late."

    The separation of church and state was a deliberate act, based on historical examples.
    The only nations with established churches now (other than the Vatican city, Costa Rica, Monaco and Liechtenstein who recognise Roman Catholicism as the official religion) are England and Denmark and Greece, none of whom are exactly religious fundamentalist
  • vikvik Posts: 179
    TOPPING said:

    As for the Trumpaclysm there is nevertheless something amusing about people bemoaning the fall in stock prices when "middle America" won't even have a 401k let alone any direct investments in the market. It echoes the "whose GDP" issue in the UK. And when I say "middle America" I mean those people who voted for Trump. This might be what they wanted.

    Trump himself uses the stock market as a measure of his own success. Even yesterday, while introducing the tariffs, he spent a part of his speech bragging about the stock market performance during his first term.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550

    kinabalu said:

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Trump says Keir Starmer is very happy with US tariff treatment

    Also went on to say Trump and his team are very bullish and gone off to Florida and no doubt the golf course

    In response to @Cicero Trump owns this 100%

    Either Trump is a liar or Starmer is an idiot, or both.
    You doubt Trump is a liar? That seems idiotic to me.

    Who on earth other than Trump thinks Starmer is happy to see tariffs slapped on UK exports to the US?
    It's all relative. The UK is now a relatively more advantageous place from which to export to the US than it was last week.
    Duh! You really have swallowed the MAGA cult BS. There is NOTHING positive about this for UK, and those that are claiming a "Brexshit dividend" need to realise that we are not part of the negotiating bloc that is most likely to face Trump down and therefore have to supinely grovel to him instead. This is where populism leads; collective stupidity and business and economic illiteracy.
    The idea that the EU will "face Trump down" on trade rests on the assumption that Trump isn't serious about his stated objectives.
    The balance of probabilities is that Trump isn't serious about these objectives. Two reasons.

    The boring technical one is that his objectives (fund the government and reduce imports) contradict.

    The fundamental one is that Trump is not, and never has been, a serious individual.
    I don't think it should be underestimated how much the driver of what he says and does is simply to own the news. IMO so long as he's got the world's attention 24/7 that is primary objective achieved. You can go badly wrong if you try to find any 'plan' other than that. Planning requires an ability to see beyond the next couple of hours or days, it requires deferred gratification, and there's no evidence of this. It's like America, and therefore the world, is a toy in the hands of a maladjusted child.
    The inevitable result is the rest of the world trades less with America and more with each other. Not quite sure how that is supposed to help America, but they have made their choice (until they row it back).
    I think we'll see constant chopping and changing on these 'tariffs' so as to squeeze maximum value out of them in terms of tv ratings and general attention.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,844

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think the finishing sentence is the correct one - people expect the government to be able to stop it.

    We have lived through two extraordinary events in the past few years - Covid and Ukraine - and in both the government stepped in to mitigate the issues through furlough and the energy payments. I am fairly convinced that a lot of people now think the government is able to do this any time there are negative economic outcomes. This has not been helped by the very poor coverage of what all this spending meant long term - the media were poor at questioning it; and the opposition at the time wanted more of it.

    Agree completely. Our complete overreaction in respect of energy bills with the government running in terror of that idiot Martin Lewis in particular did very serious lasting harm to the country and our future wealth. The poor need protected with targeted benefits. The rest of us should have been left to get on with it.
    I disagree.

    There is far too much emphasis on 'protecting the poor' at the expense of the average person.

    Its often said that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes.

    Well they're wrong, there's another, the poor.

    No matter how much money is given to them, no matter how many freebies are donated to them, no matter how many opportunities are created for them the poor keep on increasing in numbers.

    Here are the next generation of 'the poor':

    More than half a million young people who are not working or studying have never had a job, an analysis has found.

    Most of those not in education, employment or training (Neet) are also not looking for a job and an increasing number report sickness as the main reason.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/young-people-work-training-benefits-fgdg998tk

    After them will follow most of the SEND kids currently bankrupting local councils.
    What an absolutely crass post.

    What is your remedy? A cull.

    I agree too many people are reliant on benefits, and that is a culture that needs to be changed, but until that culture is changed, morality suggests we can't let these people starve. That is one of my issues over the cruelty of "Austerity 2.0".
    You think the poor are starving ?

    Obesity is highest among the poor.

    Grotty takeaways abound in deprived areas.

    Talk to a school dinner lady about how much free food is given to the poor and you'll be surprised.

    The poor have more in common with Mr Creosote than they do with any 'hungry thirties' stereotype.
    Could you have added any more stereotypes to your post?

    Oh wait, they are not spending their Giros on bread for their children but White Lightening and fags. If they can't afford fresh fruit and vegetables for their children they should cancel Netflix.

    I seem to recall you were a big fan of a Prime Minister known for egregious freeloading. It looks like he overdid it on the Aldi value sliced bread.
    The bag of chips vs healthy food choice by many poor people has been debated since before Orwell. Who explained the reasons pretty well.
    Chips are a fine healthy food. Potatoes are an excellent food in themselves, and turning them into chips assists in avoiding a low fat diet, which for many people is linked with depression, and in some cases with suicidal thoughts.

    They can be eaten anywhere, but with fish by the chip van at Tobermory harbour is optimal.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    vik said:

    TOPPING said:

    As for the Trumpaclysm there is nevertheless something amusing about people bemoaning the fall in stock prices when "middle America" won't even have a 401k let alone any direct investments in the market. It echoes the "whose GDP" issue in the UK. And when I say "middle America" I mean those people who voted for Trump. This might be what they wanted.

    Trump himself uses the stock market as a measure of his own success. Even yesterday, while introducing the tariffs, he spent a part of his speech bragging about the stock market performance during his first term.
    Yes. He is mad. Not my point.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,225
    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    I'm always intrigued by the apparent disconnect between omniscience and the importance of praying in cases like this.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,225
    vik said:

    TOPPING said:

    As for the Trumpaclysm there is nevertheless something amusing about people bemoaning the fall in stock prices when "middle America" won't even have a 401k let alone any direct investments in the market. It echoes the "whose GDP" issue in the UK. And when I say "middle America" I mean those people who voted for Trump. This might be what they wanted.

    Trump himself uses the stock market as a measure of his own success. Even yesterday, while introducing the tariffs, he spent a part of his speech bragging about the stock market performance during his first term.
    He'll no doubt take the credit when tariff removal/reduction causes the markets to rise bigly :lol:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think the finishing sentence is the correct one - people expect the government to be able to stop it.

    We have lived through two extraordinary events in the past few years - Covid and Ukraine - and in both the government stepped in to mitigate the issues through furlough and the energy payments. I am fairly convinced that a lot of people now think the government is able to do this any time there are negative economic outcomes. This has not been helped by the very poor coverage of what all this spending meant long term - the media were poor at questioning it; and the opposition at the time wanted more of it.

    Agree completely. Our complete overreaction in respect of energy bills with the government running in terror of that idiot Martin Lewis in particular did very serious lasting harm to the country and our future wealth. The poor need protected with targeted benefits. The rest of us should have been left to get on with it.
    I disagree.

    There is far too much emphasis on 'protecting the poor' at the expense of the average person.

    Its often said that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes.

    Well they're wrong, there's another, the poor.

    No matter how much money is given to them, no matter how many freebies are donated to them, no matter how many opportunities are created for them the poor keep on increasing in numbers.

    Here are the next generation of 'the poor':

    More than half a million young people who are not working or studying have never had a job, an analysis has found.

    Most of those not in education, employment or training (Neet) are also not looking for a job and an increasing number report sickness as the main reason.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/young-people-work-training-benefits-fgdg998tk

    After them will follow most of the SEND kids currently bankrupting local councils.
    What an absolutely crass post.

    What is your remedy? A cull.

    I agree too many people are reliant on benefits, and that is a culture that needs to be changed, but until that culture is changed, morality suggests we can't let these people starve. That is one of my issues over the cruelty of "Austerity 2.0".
    You think the poor are starving ?

    Obesity is highest among the poor.

    Grotty takeaways abound in deprived areas.

    Talk to a school dinner lady about how much free food is given to the poor and you'll be surprised.

    The poor have more in common with Mr Creosote than they do with any 'hungry thirties' stereotype.
    Could you have added any more stereotypes to your post?

    Oh wait, they are not spending their Giros on bread for their children but White Lightening and fags. If they can't afford fresh fruit and vegetables for their children they should cancel Netflix.

    I seem to recall you were a big fan of a Prime Minister known for egregious freeloading. It looks like he overdid it on the Aldi value sliced bread.
    The bag of chips vs healthy food choice by many poor people has been debated since before Orwell. Who explained the reasons pretty well.
    Chips are a fine healthy food. Potatoes are an excellent food in themselves, and turning them into chips assists in avoiding a low fat diet, which for many people is linked with depression, and in some cases with suicidal thoughts.

    They can be eaten anywhere, but with fish by the chip van at Tobermory harbour is optimal.
    Fish and chips once a year is fine. The idea is great for 11 months and three weeks and then the reality is great but not as great as the expectation. And then a week later you are looking forward to doing it again next year.

    Geales it was for me, sadly a pandemic casualty.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,719
    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    Yes but 'most of the world' includes large swathes of the third world which is, frankly, whatever euphemisms we may employ, backwards,
    If you were to look at the developed world, American religious attitudes stick out like the sorest of sore thumbs. It's not just that atheism is much higher everywhere other than America, it's that among the religious, the belief that God is actually interventionist on an individual level in response to this sort of thing is much lower.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    It's fantastic that people are praying. What did Justin Welby pray for, I wonder, as he was finding the allegations of child sexual abuse in the church he lead to be "overwhelming".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    Cicero said:

    The stunned silence on the US right after Trump´s Tariff of Misfortune game show performance has been quite remarkable. I think the backlash will take a little while to come, since the scale of the disaster is so immense that it takes a while to grasp it, especially for the knuckle draggers n the GOP congressional delegation.

    However, after the absolute rout across global markets it is pretty clear that Trump is facing a choice: walk back from this disaster or own it.

    He is doing what he was elected to do, whether it ends in disaster or not depends on whether prices and cost of living rise more than US manufacturing jobs grow as a result of these tariffs
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,621

    Roger said:

    While looking for places to avoid the Bamfords food businesses I came across this.....

    Some odd inclusions and some even odder inclusions

    https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/britains-15-poshest-towns-in-2025-032425

    Bruton is always a complete mystery to me. A couple of oppressive narrow streets with too much traffic, set in a rather dark valley - what's to like?

    For some reason it's been colonised by emigrés from Islington, presumably because it's got a couple of private schools and a train line to London.

    PS What are the Bamford's food businesses - are they part of the JCB
    empire?
    Daylsford Organic was set up and is run by Lady Bamford
    It's a loss leader. It's effectively subsidised by the highly profitable Bamford
    businesses.
    That’s almost misogynistic of you @Peter_the_Punter

    Yes there are married women who run small “lifestyle” businesses funded by their partners. This is not one of them.

    Lady Bamford has built a business with revenues of £55m and 500 staff from scratch. It makes a small loss, but her provisions for stock shrinkage are higher than her losses.

    It is a good business with a great brand and a strong market position. A much greater achievement than you apply.

  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,060
    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    First, I’m not a left liberal but thanks for dictating what you think I am so wrongly.

    Secondly, if you listened to it, you would understand how far away from saying “prayers in the event of an accident”, it was almost medieval in the belief that it was prayers that stopped infection, got the ambulance to the hospital quickly etc.

    If people want to pray etc that’s great but to ascribe the things they did and the absolutist handover of modern life to religion was extreme - if we hear Muslims or any other religion claiming allah or others did these things we would scoff.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    It's fantastic that people are praying. What did Justin Welby pray for, I wonder, as he was finding the allegations of child sexual abuse in the church he lead to be "overwhelming".
    Guidance I imagine but Lambeth of course did report the Smyth allegations to police in 2013, even if they could have been followed up it was the police who did not investigate them further
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,657
    TOPPING said:

    As for the Trumpaclysm there is nevertheless something amusing about people bemoaning the fall in stock prices when "middle America" won't even have a 401k let alone any direct investments in the market. It echoes the "whose GDP" issue in the UK. And when I say "middle America" I mean those people who voted for Trump. This might be what they wanted.

    Two major US manufacturers announced layoffs directly as a result of the announcement.

    I guess that is not what they voted for...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    The stunned silence on the US right after Trump´s Tariff of Misfortune game show performance has been quite remarkable. I think the backlash will take a little while to come, since the scale of the disaster is so immense that it takes a while to grasp it, especially for the knuckle draggers n the GOP congressional delegation.

    However, after the absolute rout across global markets it is pretty clear that Trump is facing a choice: walk back from this disaster or own it.

    He is doing what he was elected to do, whether it ends in disaster or not depends on whether prices and cost of living rise more than US manufacturing jobs grow as a result of these tariffs
    Exactly. The people who voted for him, largely, couldn't give a Tinker's cuss for the stock market.

    "Economic inequality has increased drastically across advanced industrial democracies and, with it, the range of economic experiences. These changes present a challenge for political economy which gauges the health of the economy with aggregate economic statistics like growth and jobs. Motivated by this challenge, we ask how new economic realities in advanced capitalism matters for how citizens evaluate the national economy. We argue that individuals seek out and apply information on those indicators of economic heath that affect their own lives while discounting those that do not. Applying our reasoning to the case of poverty and poverty risk, we assert that among the working poor, poverty rates provide a more meaningful signal of economic conditions than do conventional macroeconomic indicators. We show that poverty risk exerts a strong effect on economic evaluations. Individuals at high risk of poverty are less informed about standard macroeconomic indicators but better informed about national poverty rates. When evaluating macroeconomic performance, they are more likely to discount conventional economic indicators and base assessments on national poverty rates instead. Results indicate that political economy must depart from familiar but partial indicators and account for the layered economies structuring political behavior."

    https://talks.ox.ac.uk/talks/id/2b29bd82-ee7f-49b2-b58b-dae5002a85ac/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    Yes but 'most of the world' includes large swathes of the third world which is, frankly, whatever euphemisms we may employ, backwards,
    If you were to look at the developed world, American religious attitudes stick out like the sorest of sore thumbs. It's not just that atheism is much higher everywhere other than America, it's that among the religious, the belief that God is actually interventionist on an individual level in response to this sort of thing is much lower.
    In values there is an argument to some that much of the 'third world' you so patronise still holds true to traditional values and morality which were the backbone of humanity for centuries.

    In Greece, Poland, much of Italy even rural Ireland and Orthodox Jew Israel attitudes to religion would be similar to red state USA
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,844

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    I think "Cromwell's England" is potentially very relevant. Over the last week or two I've been dipping in the Trumpvangelical / Nat Con pond, and there is a significant elevation of political aims to be alongside religious doctrine - a serious category error that makes persuasion very difficult, since reason is often not applicable.

    An example is "woke" and "deep state" being characterised as an alternative religion that must be destroyed because it is "evil", including in prayers. There is similar stuff around abortion. That type of attitude makes the collateral damage being done by Musk's random cuts seem acceptable.

    It's one comparison I have been reflecting on. Another is Trump as one of those 13 year old Medieval Kings who just randomly demand things because he can and it is about their power not the consequences, that devastate ordinary people.

    That happens less afaics amongst the Catholic-Right or Jewish wings of Trump's support coalition.
    "When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong, faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late."

    The separation of church and state was a deliberate act, based on historical examples.
    Yes - but there was also a parallel tradition trying to combine church and state. That's what a lot of Trump-supporters want back. See also the Oath of Allegiance, or "In God we Trust" on the currency.

    That latter replaced "E Pluribus Unum" in the 1950s.
    The separation of church and state was only ever intended to prevent any one Christian sect from achieving (or attempting) dominance over others on a national scale. Hardly anyone doubted that the US was, and should be, a Christian country, or that for practical purposes, denominations could establish areas of their own primacy.

    But that was then. Most of the West moved on from that thinking; the US hasn't.
    Until recently societies in general assumed some sort of religiously normative understanding, from which various degrees of divergence, from very small to entire, were regarded as part of life.

    We are actually quite early on in a new experiment in which the normative understanding is explicitly secular, (while at the same time we have a church in England established under law, and the House of Commons starts each day with prayer!), from which all religion is regarded as a departure from the norm.

    Personally I don't think the experiment is sustainable but I am in a very small minority in so thinking.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,302
    dixiedean said:

    FTSE opens down and continues to fall.

    I'm just hoping most Ameicans have lost as much as I have these last few days. It might make them resist shiny things when they vote next time!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    It's fantastic that people are praying. What did Justin Welby pray for, I wonder, as he was finding the allegations of child sexual abuse in the church he lead to be "overwhelming".
    Guidance I imagine but Lambeth of course did report the Smyth allegations to police in 2013, even if they could have been followed up it was the police who did not investigate them further
    What do you suppose the guidance was.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,060
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    It's fantastic that people are praying. What did Justin Welby pray for, I wonder, as he was finding the allegations of child sexual abuse in the church he lead to be "overwhelming".
    Guidance I imagine but Lambeth of course did report the Smyth allegations to police in 2013, even if they could have been followed up it was the police who did not investigate them further
    Do you think the guys from my old school were praying for Smyth to carry on abusing them or praying for him to stop whilst at those religious camps?

    Were some praying for “stop”and others “carry on”? If so why did God listen to the “carry on” chaps?

    And if god has left it for man to act with free will then what is the point in prayer?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,163
    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    Science is not a democracy. It wouldn't matter if 99% of people believed that the best cure "in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury" was to perform some ritual utterly unconnected to the sufferer in question, they'd still be daft.

    (There is an argument that a sufferer's *own* faith can sometimes make a difference through reverse psychosomatic effects, and so are worth encouraging in such circumstances, but that would be true of any strong belief in their ability to recover and are dependent on the individual, not the religion).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    First, I’m not a left liberal but thanks for dictating what you think I am so wrongly.

    Secondly, if you listened to it, you would understand how far away from saying “prayers in the event of an accident”, it was almost medieval in the belief that it was prayers that stopped infection, got the ambulance to the hospital quickly etc.

    If people want to pray etc that’s great but to ascribe the things they did and the absolutist handover of modern life to religion was extreme - if we hear Muslims or any other religion claiming allah or others did these things we would scoff.
    Of course you are, you are a left liberal who dislikes conservatism and rightwing politics.

    Evangelical Christians and many Roman Catholics even here would think that prayer can genuinely save someones life, you just live in a left liberal echo chamber.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,195
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    The stunned silence on the US right after Trump´s Tariff of Misfortune game show performance has been quite remarkable. I think the backlash will take a little while to come, since the scale of the disaster is so immense that it takes a while to grasp it, especially for the knuckle draggers n the GOP congressional delegation.

    However, after the absolute rout across global markets it is pretty clear that Trump is facing a choice: walk back from this disaster or own it.

    He is doing what he was elected to do, whether it ends in disaster or not depends on whether prices and cost of living rise more than US manufacturing jobs grow as a result of these tariffs
    It is all a bit "I dinnae ken"/"Ye ken the noo!"

    But that ability to get a mandate to do awful stuff because people heard the promises but didn't quite believe them... That's some sort of genius. Bad, but genius.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    The stunned silence on the US right after Trump´s Tariff of Misfortune game show performance has been quite remarkable. I think the backlash will take a little while to come, since the scale of the disaster is so immense that it takes a while to grasp it, especially for the knuckle draggers n the GOP congressional delegation.

    However, after the absolute rout across global markets it is pretty clear that Trump is facing a choice: walk back from this disaster or own it.

    He is doing what he was elected to do, whether it ends in disaster or not depends on whether prices and cost of living rise more than US manufacturing jobs grow as a result of these tariffs
    Exactly. The people who voted for him, largely, couldn't give a Tinker's cuss for the stock market.

    "Economic inequality has increased drastically across advanced industrial democracies and, with it, the range of economic experiences. These changes present a challenge for political economy which gauges the health of the economy with aggregate economic statistics like growth and jobs. Motivated by this challenge, we ask how new economic realities in advanced capitalism matters for how citizens evaluate the national economy. We argue that individuals seek out and apply information on those indicators of economic heath that affect their own lives while discounting those that do not. Applying our reasoning to the case of poverty and poverty risk, we assert that among the working poor, poverty rates provide a more meaningful signal of economic conditions than do conventional macroeconomic indicators. We show that poverty risk exerts a strong effect on economic evaluations. Individuals at high risk of poverty are less informed about standard macroeconomic indicators but better informed about national poverty rates. When evaluating macroeconomic performance, they are more likely to discount conventional economic indicators and base assessments on national poverty rates instead. Results indicate that political economy must depart from familiar but partial indicators and account for the layered economies structuring political behavior."

    https://talks.ox.ac.uk/talks/id/2b29bd82-ee7f-49b2-b58b-dae5002a85ac/
    Their fathers worked in steel factories and car factories, they don't now on the whole and few hold stocks
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,657
    Roger said:

    dixiedean said:

    FTSE opens down and continues to fall.

    I'm just hoping most Ameicans have lost as much as I have these last few days. It might make them resist shiny things when they vote next time!
    @JJ_McCullough

    “You will own nothing and be happy” is apparently the MAGA motto now

    https://x.com/JJ_McCullough/status/1907846956493451494
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 901
    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    As for the Trumpaclysm there is nevertheless something amusing about people bemoaning the fall in stock prices when "middle America" won't even have a 401k let alone any direct investments in the market. It echoes the "whose GDP" issue in the UK. And when I say "middle America" I mean those people who voted for Trump. This might be what they wanted.

    Two major US manufacturers announced layoffs directly as a result of the announcement.

    I guess that is not what they voted for...
    67% of private sector US workers have a defined contribution pension scheme, 54% of US households have a "retirement account".
    Those will be invested in stocks and other financial instruments.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,002
    I have never been happier to own zero stocks and shares (other than my pension but who cares about that). Lol
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,621
    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    It's fantastic that people are praying. What did Justin Welby pray for, I wonder, as he was finding the allegations of child sexual abuse in the church he lead to be "overwhelming".
    Guidance I imagine but Lambeth of course did report the Smyth allegations to police in 2013, even if they could have been followed up it was the police who did not investigate them further
    Do you think the guys from my old school were praying for Smyth to carry on abusing them or praying for him to stop whilst at those religious camps?

    Were some praying for “stop”and others “carry on”? If so why did God listen to the “carry on” chaps?


    And if god has left it for man to act with free will then what is the point in prayer?
    Prayer is about communication and self-reflection. It’s not about asking for things and ticking off a list.

    It’s often in prayer than the “still small voice of calm” speaks and helps you resolve your issues. It’s a vocalisation of your subconscious, of course, but prayer (or meditation) creates the space for it to be heard.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    edited April 4
    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    It's fantastic that people are praying. What did Justin Welby pray for, I wonder, as he was finding the allegations of child sexual abuse in the church he lead to be "overwhelming".
    Guidance I imagine but Lambeth of course did report the Smyth allegations to police in 2013, even if they could have been followed up it was the police who did not investigate them further
    Do you think the guys from my old school were praying for Smyth to carry on abusing them or praying for him to stop whilst at those religious camps?

    Were some praying for “stop”and others “carry on”? If so why did God listen to the “carry on” chaps?

    And if god has left it for man to act with free will then what is the point in prayer?
    Smyth was of course a barrister not a priest.

    Man has largely had free will since Eve and Adam ate from the tree of knowledge but that does not mean God does not sometimes intervene, see Lourdes
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,057
    TOPPING said:

    As for the Trumpaclysm there is nevertheless something amusing about people bemoaning the fall in stock prices when "middle America" won't even have a 401k let alone any direct investments in the market. It echoes the "whose GDP" issue in the UK. And when I say "middle America" I mean those people who voted for Trump. This might be what they wanted.

    About 66% of Republicans own stocks. Slightly more than Dems and more than Indies.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-owns-stock.aspx
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,060
    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    First, I’m not a left liberal but thanks for dictating what you think I am so wrongly.

    Secondly, if you listened to it, you would understand how far away from saying “prayers in the event of an accident”, it was almost medieval in the belief that it was prayers that stopped infection, got the ambulance to the hospital quickly etc.

    If people want to pray etc that’s great but to ascribe the things they did and the absolutist handover of modern life to religion was extreme - if we hear Muslims or any other religion claiming allah or others did these things we would scoff.
    Of course you are, you are a left liberal who dislikes conservatism and rightwing politics.

    Evangelical Christians and many Roman Catholics even here would think that prayer can genuinely save someones life, you just live in a left liberal echo chamber.
    I shall enjoy informing my friends later today that I have been dubbed a “left liberal”.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    Science is not a democracy. It wouldn't matter if 99% of people believed that the best cure "in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury" was to perform some ritual utterly unconnected to the sufferer in question, they'd still be daft.

    (There is an argument that a sufferer's *own* faith can sometimes make a difference through reverse psychosomatic effects, and so are worth encouraging in such circumstances, but that would be true of any strong belief in their ability to recover and are dependent on the individual, not the religion).
    Neither is the word of God a democracy
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,621
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    The stunned silence on the US right after Trump´s Tariff of Misfortune game show performance has been quite remarkable. I think the backlash will take a little while to come, since the scale of the disaster is so immense that it takes a while to grasp it, especially for the knuckle draggers n the GOP congressional delegation.

    However, after the absolute rout across global markets it is pretty clear that Trump is facing a choice: walk back from this disaster or own it.

    He is doing what he was elected to do, whether it ends in disaster or not depends on whether prices and cost of living rise more than US manufacturing jobs grow as a result of these tariffs
    Exactly. The people who voted for him, largely, couldn't give a Tinker's cuss for the stock market.

    "Economic inequality has increased drastically across advanced industrial democracies and, with it, the range of economic experiences. These changes present a challenge for political economy which gauges the health of the economy with aggregate economic statistics like growth and jobs. Motivated by this challenge, we ask how new economic realities in advanced capitalism matters for how citizens evaluate the national economy. We argue that individuals seek out and apply information on those indicators of economic heath that affect their own lives while discounting those that do not. Applying our reasoning to the case of poverty and poverty risk, we assert that among the working poor, poverty rates provide a more meaningful signal of economic conditions than do conventional macroeconomic indicators. We show that poverty risk exerts a strong effect on economic evaluations. Individuals at high risk of poverty are less informed about standard macroeconomic indicators but better informed about national poverty rates. When evaluating macroeconomic performance, they are more likely to discount conventional economic indicators and base assessments on national poverty rates instead. Results indicate that political economy must depart from familiar but partial indicators and account for the layered economies structuring political behavior."

    https://talks.ox.ac.uk/talks/id/2b29bd82-ee7f-49b2-b58b-dae5002a85ac/
    Their fathers worked in steel factories and car factories, they don't now on the whole and few hold stocks
    I knew I shouldn’t have bought Anacot Steel!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    It's fantastic that people are praying. What did Justin Welby pray for, I wonder, as he was finding the allegations of child sexual abuse in the church he lead to be "overwhelming".
    Guidance I imagine but Lambeth of course did report the Smyth allegations to police in 2013, even if they could have been followed up it was the police who did not investigate them further
    Do you think the guys from my old school were praying for Smyth to carry on abusing them or praying for him to stop whilst at those religious camps?

    Were some praying for “stop”and others “carry on”? If so why did God listen to the “carry on” chaps?


    And if god has left it for man to act with free will then what is the point in prayer?
    Prayer is about communication and self-reflection. It’s not about asking for things and ticking off a list.

    It’s often in prayer than the “still small voice of calm” speaks and helps you resolve your issues. It’s a vocalisation of your subconscious, of course, but prayer (or meditation) creates the space for it to be heard.
    So if prayer is self-reflection, then god presumably becomes irrelevant.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    TOPPING said:

    As for the Trumpaclysm there is nevertheless something amusing about people bemoaning the fall in stock prices when "middle America" won't even have a 401k let alone any direct investments in the market. It echoes the "whose GDP" issue in the UK. And when I say "middle America" I mean those people who voted for Trump. This might be what they wanted.

    About 66% of Republicans own stocks. Slightly more than Dems and more than Indies.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-owns-stock.aspx
    Absolutely - don't doubt it. But it's probably that 34% that gone and won him the 'lection.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    It's fantastic that people are praying. What did Justin Welby pray for, I wonder, as he was finding the allegations of child sexual abuse in the church he lead to be "overwhelming".
    Guidance I imagine but Lambeth of course did report the Smyth allegations to police in 2013, even if they could have been followed up it was the police who did not investigate them further
    Do you think the guys from my old school were praying for Smyth to carry on abusing them or praying for him to stop whilst at those religious camps?

    Were some praying for “stop”and others “carry on”? If so why did God listen to the “carry on” chaps?

    And if god has left it for man to act with free will then what is the point in prayer?
    Smyth was of course a barrister not a priest.

    Man has largely had free will since Eve and Adam ate from the tree of knowledge but that does not mean God does not sometimes intervene, see Lourdes
    That is quite funny.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 901
    edited April 4
    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    It's fantastic that people are praying. What did Justin Welby pray for, I wonder, as he was finding the allegations of child sexual abuse in the church he lead to be "overwhelming".
    Guidance I imagine but Lambeth of course did report the Smyth allegations to police in 2013, even if they could have been followed up it was the police who did not investigate them further
    Do you think the guys from my old school were praying for Smyth to carry on abusing them or praying for him to stop whilst at those religious camps?

    Were some praying for “stop”and others “carry on”? If so why did God listen to the “carry on” chaps?

    And if god has left it for man to act with free will then what is the point in prayer?
    Smyth was of course a barrister not a priest.

    Man has largely had free will since Eve and Adam ate from the tree of knowledge but that does not mean God does not sometimes intervene, see Lourdes
    "cambridge-educated lawyer" klaxon!

    You are conveniently avoiding the fact that Smyth used the church to facilitate his abusive behaviour, could just as easily have been a sports club, a school or other institution with poor safeguarding but in this case it was CofE religious camps.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,621
    TOPPING said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    It's fantastic that people are praying. What did Justin Welby pray for, I wonder, as he was finding the allegations of child sexual abuse in the church he lead to be "overwhelming".
    Guidance I imagine but Lambeth of course did report the Smyth allegations to police in 2013, even if they could have been followed up it was the police who did not investigate them further
    Do you think the guys from my old school were praying for Smyth to carry on abusing them or praying for him to stop whilst at those religious camps?

    Were some praying for “stop”and others “carry on”? If so why did God listen to the “carry on” chaps?


    And if god has left it for man to act with free will then what is the point in prayer?
    Prayer is about communication and self-reflection. It’s not about asking for things and ticking off a list.

    It’s often in prayer than the “still small voice of calm” speaks and helps you resolve your issues. It’s a vocalisation of your subconscious, of course, but prayer (or
    meditation) creates the space for it to be heard.
    So if prayer is self-reflection, then god presumably becomes irrelevant.
    No. Many people find it helpful to have an external focal point be that an icon or God Himself.

    Faith is just that: faith. What do you get out of aggressively trying to diminish what others want to believe?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,163
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    The stunned silence on the US right after Trump´s Tariff of Misfortune game show performance has been quite remarkable. I think the backlash will take a little while to come, since the scale of the disaster is so immense that it takes a while to grasp it, especially for the knuckle draggers n the GOP congressional delegation.

    However, after the absolute rout across global markets it is pretty clear that Trump is facing a choice: walk back from this disaster or own it.

    He is doing what he was elected to do, whether it ends in disaster or not depends on whether prices and cost of living rise more than US manufacturing jobs grow as a result of these tariffs
    Exactly. The people who voted for him, largely, couldn't give a Tinker's cuss for the stock market.

    "Economic inequality has increased drastically across advanced industrial democracies and, with it, the range of economic experiences. These changes present a challenge for political economy which gauges the health of the economy with aggregate economic statistics like growth and jobs. Motivated by this challenge, we ask how new economic realities in advanced capitalism matters for how citizens evaluate the national economy. We argue that individuals seek out and apply information on those indicators of economic heath that affect their own lives while discounting those that do not. Applying our reasoning to the case of poverty and poverty risk, we assert that among the working poor, poverty rates provide a more meaningful signal of economic conditions than do conventional macroeconomic indicators. We show that poverty risk exerts a strong effect on economic evaluations. Individuals at high risk of poverty are less informed about standard macroeconomic indicators but better informed about national poverty rates. When evaluating macroeconomic performance, they are more likely to discount conventional economic indicators and base assessments on national poverty rates instead. Results indicate that political economy must depart from familiar but partial indicators and account for the layered economies structuring political behavior."

    https://talks.ox.ac.uk/talks/id/2b29bd82-ee7f-49b2-b58b-dae5002a85ac/
    Their fathers worked in steel factories and car factories, they don't now on the whole and few hold stocks
    You can't turn the clock back.

    Even if more manufacturing jobs are created in the US as a result of the tariffs, they're going to be supplying primarily the domestic market because what they produce will be more expensive / worse quality than what's internationally available (otherwise they'd already be making it), and retaliatory tariffs will block US manufacture even more, even where they are marginally competitive - not to mention people, companies and governments making strategic risk / national security choices not to buy American.

    And while that's moderately good for those with the jobs, it's pretty crap for everyone forced to buy the stuff, who greatly outnumber them.

    Trump is basically bringing back British Leyland and expecting people to be grateful.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,057
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    As for the Trumpaclysm there is nevertheless something amusing about people bemoaning the fall in stock prices when "middle America" won't even have a 401k let alone any direct investments in the market. It echoes the "whose GDP" issue in the UK. And when I say "middle America" I mean those people who voted for Trump. This might be what they wanted.

    About 66% of Republicans own stocks. Slightly more than Dems and more than Indies.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-owns-stock.aspx
    Absolutely - don't doubt it. But it's probably that 34% that gone and won him the 'lection.
    I think maths dicates that the 66% are "probably" more votes than the 34% but whatever.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    Sometimes, if you ever really need it, you get a reminder that the US is largely a crazily different country to us.

    I was listening in the small hours to a world service programme about a teenager in Ohio who was shot twice at school and survived - all quite a remarkable story in itself how it played out.

    What was more than eye-opening was the unbelievable religious fervour of the town and people involved.

    Everything was “praying. The school nurse - a former combat medic - praying to Jesus whilst helping the boy. The boy, praying for the shooter, everyone praying non stop.

    The ladies who had a prayer room above a shop apparently saved him by praying.

    The whole town prevented the shotgun pellets from giving him infection in his heart and lungs by praying - forget the skilled doctors - praying.

    If it had been a story from, say an Islamic country, we would likely mock and raise eyebrows but this was like something out of 1600s Salem or Cromwell’s England - everyone sodding praying and genuinely believing that everything worked out ok because they all prayed.

    Loons. No wonder you get Trumpism when there is a huge swathe of the country who are so credulous and backwards.

    Hardly, in most of the world prayers would be said in the event of a serious accident or crime leading to injury, it shows how militantly secular left liberals like you in the UK are you think that is worthy of mockery!
    It's fantastic that people are praying. What did Justin Welby pray for, I wonder, as he was finding the allegations of child sexual abuse in the church he lead to be "overwhelming".
    You seem to expect that people should be morally and legally responsible for their voluntarily assumed moral and legal responsibilities.
  • vikvik Posts: 179
    edited April 4
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    The stunned silence on the US right after Trump´s Tariff of Misfortune game show performance has been quite remarkable. I think the backlash will take a little while to come, since the scale of the disaster is so immense that it takes a while to grasp it, especially for the knuckle draggers n the GOP congressional delegation.

    However, after the absolute rout across global markets it is pretty clear that Trump is facing a choice: walk back from this disaster or own it.

    He is doing what he was elected to do, whether it ends in disaster or not depends on whether prices and cost of living rise more than US manufacturing jobs grow as a result of these tariffs
    If his objective is to grow manufacturing jobs, then why is he imposing tariffs on raw materials, which are needed to build new factories ?

    The 50% tariffs on Lesotho, for example, have been imposed because Lesotho has a trade surplus with the US. The trade surplus exists because Lesotho exports a lot of diamonds to the US. How will restricting cheap diamonds from Lesotho help to grow US manufacturing jobs ?

    Trump complains a lot about Canada's trade surplus with the US. The trade surplus only exists because of Canada's oil exports to the US & if you exclude oil, then Canada has a trade deficit. How will restricting cheap oil from Canada help to grow US manufacturing jobs ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    edited April 4

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    The stunned silence on the US right after Trump´s Tariff of Misfortune game show performance has been quite remarkable. I think the backlash will take a little while to come, since the scale of the disaster is so immense that it takes a while to grasp it, especially for the knuckle draggers n the GOP congressional delegation.

    However, after the absolute rout across global markets it is pretty clear that Trump is facing a choice: walk back from this disaster or own it.

    He is doing what he was elected to do, whether it ends in disaster or not depends on whether prices and cost of living rise more than US manufacturing jobs grow as a result of these tariffs
    Exactly. The people who voted for him, largely, couldn't give a Tinker's cuss for the stock market.

    "Economic inequality has increased drastically across advanced industrial democracies and, with it, the range of economic experiences. These changes present a challenge for political economy which gauges the health of the economy with aggregate economic statistics like growth and jobs. Motivated by this challenge, we ask how new economic realities in advanced capitalism matters for how citizens evaluate the national economy. We argue that individuals seek out and apply information on those indicators of economic heath that affect their own lives while discounting those that do not. Applying our reasoning to the case of poverty and poverty risk, we assert that among the working poor, poverty rates provide a more meaningful signal of economic conditions than do conventional macroeconomic indicators. We show that poverty risk exerts a strong effect on economic evaluations. Individuals at high risk of poverty are less informed about standard macroeconomic indicators but better informed about national poverty rates. When evaluating macroeconomic performance, they are more likely to discount conventional economic indicators and base assessments on national poverty rates instead. Results indicate that political economy must depart from familiar but partial indicators and account for the layered economies structuring political behavior."

    https://talks.ox.ac.uk/talks/id/2b29bd82-ee7f-49b2-b58b-dae5002a85ac/
    Their fathers worked in steel factories and car factories, they don't now on the whole and few hold stocks
    You can't turn the clock back.

    Even if more manufacturing jobs are created in the US as a result of the tariffs, they're going to be supplying primarily the domestic market because what they produce will be more expensive / worse quality than what's internationally available (otherwise they'd already be making it), and retaliatory tariffs will block US manufacture even more, even where they are marginally competitive - not to mention people, companies and governments making strategic risk / national security choices not to buy American.

    And while that's moderately good for those with the jobs, it's pretty crap for everyone forced to buy the stuff, who greatly outnumber them.

    Trump is basically bringing back British Leyland and expecting people to be grateful.
    Trump voters live in the Midwest and South, primarily want more US factories supplying the US market and will only buy American if they can.

    Few of them care about the rest of the world
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