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The power of Trump – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,356
edited 4:21PM in General
The power of Trump – politicalbetting.com

We could see some Populist Right party leading in the polls in the UK for years then in the run up to say a 2028 UK general election and Donald Trump could have a real go at Sir Keir Starmer and the UK which leads to an even bigger Labour landslide than in 2024.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,111
    edited 4:24PM
    Although Canada is an unusually duopolistic party system now, outside of Quebec.

    UK voters have other alternatives to consider besides - hypothetically - a Trump-tainted Reform and an underwhelming and underachieving Labour.

    Also, first.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,755
    edited 4:26PM
    Nearly first! In fact, it's the closest you can get to being first without actually being first!. It's close enough!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,185
    viewcode said:

    Nearly first!

    For a, ahem, facilitation fee, I can make your first.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    viewcode said:

    Nearly first!

    For a, ahem, facilitation fee, I can make your first.
    It’s just Fake Libtard News that he is second, Shirley?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,116
    The dynamics are very different because Canadian identity is so bound up in being "not American". We don't have the same hang up, despite the penetration of American culture.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,755
    edited 4:31PM
    Just a reminder, peeps.

    If you are a man born after 5 April 1951 or a woman born after 5 April 1953
    You have until 5 April 2025 to pay voluntary contributions to make up for gaps between tax years April 2006 and April 2016 if you’re eligible. The eligibility link is here: https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,421
    david_herdson said:

    Although Canada is an unusually duopolistic party system now, outside of Quebec.

    UK voters have other alternatives to consider besides - hypothetically - a Trump-tainted Reform and an underwhelming and underachieving Labour.

    Also, first.

    Greetings from the Liberal Democrats.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,836
    TimS said:

    david_herdson said:

    Although Canada is an unusually duopolistic party system now, outside of Quebec.

    UK voters have other alternatives to consider besides - hypothetically - a Trump-tainted Reform and an underwhelming and underachieving Labour.

    Also, first.

    Greetings from the Liberal Democrats.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrrIRr9arkM
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    Should be noted that Poilievre's Conservatives on 39% would still be at their highest voteshare since Harper in 2011 and the Liberals on 34% would still be down on the 39% Trudeau got when he won a majority in 2015 even if up on the 33% they got in 2021.

    So Poilevre still has a strong chance of most seats and becoming PM even if Carney looks likely to prevent a Conservative majority.

    Poilevre let alone Carney are both also making more noise against Trump's tariffs and threats to annex Canada than Starmer is
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    david_herdson said:

    Although Canada is an unusually duopolistic party system now, outside of Quebec.

    UK voters have other alternatives to consider besides - hypothetically - a Trump-tainted Reform and an underwhelming and underachieving Labour.

    Also, first.

    The social democrat NDP is polling about the same in Canada as the LDs are here, there is a Canadian Green Party too.

    The Canadian Conservatives are basically a merger of their Tories and Reform (with a more populist MAGA Peoples' Party of Canada even further out led by Maxime Bernier on abotut 2-3%)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,947
    edited 4:59PM
    HYUFD said:

    david_herdson said:

    Although Canada is an unusually duopolistic party system now, outside of Quebec.

    UK voters have other alternatives to consider besides - hypothetically - a Trump-tainted Reform and an underwhelming and underachieving Labour.

    Also, first.

    The social democrat NDP is polling about the same in Canada as the LDs are here, there is a Canadian Green Party too.

    The Canadian Conservatives are basically a merger of their Tories and Reform (with a more populist MAGA Peoples' Party of Canada even further out led by Maxime Bernier on abotut 2-3%)
    Don't forget the Canadian Communist Party and the Communist Party of Canada....who hate each other more than the filthy capitalists.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,947
    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,052
    FPT…
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    bondegezou said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    bondegezou said:

    WhisperingOracle said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    WhisperingOracle said:

    Sean_F said:

    WhisperingOracle said:

    In economic terms, can Europe survive an American collapse by allying with China ?

    It may become the only option for Europe, including Britain.

    The UK, and the big economies of Europe, need to stand on their own two feet, rather than looking for some big boy to protect them.
    The US has played that role for 80 years. I doubt without similar patronage from a much larger partner the UK could survive, especially outside the E.U.
    It would need very much stronger trade links with China just to start with, I expect.
    Bollocks. Switzerland manages fine.
    But with a population of just 8 million, who are docile, highly conscientious, and well-organised.


    The UK is pretty different.
    Switzerland is not in the EU, or indeed even the EEA any more, but it is very close integrated with the EU. It is as closely integrated as you can be without actually being in it. You can definitely count it as part of the European/EU bloc.
    But without the political interference from the EU. Seems a very good solution to me.
    Switzerland is very definitely not free of political interference from the EU. They have negotiated a special relationship and managed to maintain certain rules that they wanted to, but by and large they are rule followers not rule makers on most EU rules.
    They have an absolute choice whether or not to follow EU rules with the decisions being made by the people via regular referendums. That seems a far preferable situation to EU membership where there is no choice but to follow EU legislation and the people gave no say in the decision making.
    I think Switzerland has done well to work out a bespoke deal that gets them many of the advantages of EU/EEA membership, but where they have negotiated specific arrangements on particular issues their voters cared about. There is perhaps a lot the UK could learn from Switzerland.

    But, at the end of the day, they are absolutely part of the EU bloc and they follow most EU rules but with only limited input when those rules are written. If you think they’ve got something that’s better than full EU (or EEA) membership, maybe you’re right, maybe you’re not, but we’re talking small differences here. They are much closer to the EU than the UK currently is (or maybe I should say than GB is).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Those who watched Yes Minister know what will happen.

    The merger of organisations will result in a huge bill for consultancy and ultimately increase headcount and cost.
  • occasionalranteroccasionalranter Posts: 296
    viewcode said:

    Just a reminder, peeps.

    If you are a man born after 5 April 1951 or a woman born after 5 April 1953
    You have until 5 April 2025 to pay voluntary contributions to make up for gaps between tax years April 2006 and April 2016 if you’re eligible. The eligibility link is here: https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions

    Difficult to do, unfortunately, for many like me whose record still shows "we are checking [your record]" for many past years. I've submitted a callback request, estimated wait time 8 weeks :open_mouth:
  • occasionalranteroccasionalranter Posts: 296
    occasionalranter said:

    viewcode said:

    Just a reminder, peeps.

    If you are a man born after 5 April 1951 or a woman born after 5 April 1953
    You have until 5 April 2025 to pay voluntary contributions to make up for gaps between tax years April 2006 and April 2016 if you’re eligible. The eligibility link is here: https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions

    Difficult to do, unfortunately, for many like me whose record still shows "we are checking [your record]" for many past years. I've submitted a callback request, estimated wait time 8 weeks :open_mouth:
    Also, not your fault because the relevant info is poorly explained on .gov.uk but 5/4/25 is the cutoff for payment for 2016-17 and 2017-18 as well.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,111
    HYUFD said:

    david_herdson said:

    Although Canada is an unusually duopolistic party system now, outside of Quebec.

    UK voters have other alternatives to consider besides - hypothetically - a Trump-tainted Reform and an underwhelming and underachieving Labour.

    Also, first.

    The social democrat NDP is polling about the same in Canada as the LDs are here, there is a Canadian Green Party too.

    The Canadian Conservatives are basically a merger of their Tories and Reform (with a more populist MAGA Peoples' Party of Canada even further out led by Maxime Bernier on abotut 2-3%)
    Yeah, I should have mentioned the NDP. I'm not sure the Canadian Greens are a meaningful presence though.

    My fault for not thinking it through properly while multitasking.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,947
    edited 5:25PM
    Malmesbury said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Those who watched Yes Minister know what will happen.

    The merger of organisations will result in a huge bill for consultancy and ultimately increase headcount and cost.
    Some of the talking heads who have been senior in the civil service don't half make it sounds like all civil servants are extremely delicate wall flowers. Starmer's line has always been that he thinks it is the system not the individuals that is the problem, in fact he goes out of his way to tell us all of the sodding time that he is the son of a toolmaker when he ran a civil service department and thus he knows what it is like.

    But apparently his tone has been nothing short of disastrous.....
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,681
    On topic.

    New York Times analysis of Reform UK donors in 2024 (may have been posted before):
    https://archive.is/20250310094440/https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/06/world/europe/wealthy-conservatives-reform-uk.html
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,156
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Isn't it Keir Starmer who's "overcautious and flabby"? :lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,156
    TimS said:

    david_herdson said:

    Although Canada is an unusually duopolistic party system now, outside of Quebec.

    UK voters have other alternatives to consider besides - hypothetically - a Trump-tainted Reform and an underwhelming and underachieving Labour.

    Also, first.

    Greetings from the Liberal Democrats.
    Accrington Stanley Liberal Democrats? Who are they?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,759
    Carney appeals tariffs to WTO

    Trump is threatening to leave so he is hardly going to suddenly change his barmy policies
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,882
    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Just a reminder, peeps.

    If you are a man born after 5 April 1951 or a woman born after 5 April 1953
    You have until 5 April 2025 to pay voluntary contributions to make up for gaps between tax years April 2006 and April 2016 if you’re eligible. The eligibility link is here: https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions

    I'm going to accidently miss it and then claim compensation anyway just like the WASPI women. I mean, what could go wrong with that?
    I’m sure the Lib Dems would be demanding it like they demand money for the WASPE women
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,947
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Carney appeals tariffs to WTO

    Trump is threatening to leave so he is hardly going to suddenly change his barmy policies

    Haven't the US got a bit of a history of just ignoring the WTO decisions.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,111
    Anyway, Trump's attention appears to have turned back to the South:

    https://bsky.app/profile/nbcnews.com/post/3lkbbuxqf2c2z

    It'll turn to Congress too soon enough, in the likely event of them not passing a funding resolution by tomorrow night and so shutting down the federal government even faster the Musk.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,052
    williamglenn said:

    The dynamics are very different because Canadian identity is so bound up in being "not American". We don't have the same hang up, despite the penetration of American culture.

    That’s true to an extent. There is a special focus on not being American at the heart of Canadian culture. But our special relationship with the States has always entailed a degree of strenuous differentiation too.

    Plus, whatever we think of Americans in general telling us what to do, we hate Trump personally.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,111
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Carney appeals tariffs to WTO

    Trump is threatening to leave so he is hardly going to suddenly change his barmy policies

    It won't be about changing Trump's mind directly; it's about Carney getting his ducks lined up domestically and in terms of wider global opinion and making explicit that the US govt is an unreliable partner.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,759
    Trump live on Sky with NATOs Rutte
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,882
    edited 5:33PM
    HYUFD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
    Good, it’s what he’s promised. Slash bureaucracy and improve productivity. At least he’s doing something, hopefully it works.

    Mind you I bet they all get decent pay offs and not just the basic minimum though
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,824
    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,947
    The Department for Work and Pensions has published new figures highlighting the sharp rise in the number of people claiming the top rate of universal credit for people with sickness or a disability.

    It says there are now 1.8 million people in this category – up from 1.4 million a year ago.

    At the start of the pandemic there were only 360,000 people in this category, the DWP says.

    The DWP says that some of the increase were expected, because sick and disabled people were migrating to universal credit from other benefits, but 70% of the increase was not expected by the department. It says the UK is the only G7 country with higher levels of economic activity than before Covid.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/mar/13/keir-starmer-speech-civil-service-ai-labour-benefit-cuts-conservatives-uk-politics-latest-news
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,724
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Carney appeals tariffs to WTO

    Trump is threatening to leave so he is hardly going to suddenly change his barmy policies

    Carney is looking for a casus belli. The Australians already have it with babywombatgate, and John Swinney has taken Eric Trump captive inside Dynamic Earth.

    BRACE
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,947
    Ed Balls, the former Labour shadow chancellor, has said the government would be wrong to cut disability benefits for the most vulnerable people in society.

    He was speaking in the latest episode of Political Currency, the podcast he co-hosts with George Osborne, the former Tory chancellor, who said that when he was at the Treasury he ruled out freezing Pip (the personal independence payment – a disability benefit) because he thought that was not very fair.

    Osborne said he did try to cut eligibility for Pip in his 2016 budget, hoping to save £4bn, “which I guess, adjusting for inflation, is roughly what Labour is looking for now”. But Iain Duncan Smith, the then welfare secretary, resigned in protest, “and I had to back down”, Osborne said.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,999
    david_herdson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Carney appeals tariffs to WTO

    Trump is threatening to leave so he is hardly going to suddenly change his barmy policies

    It won't be about changing Trump's mind directly; it's about Carney getting his ducks lined up domestically and in terms of wider global opinion and making explicit that the US govt is an unreliable partner.
    Every chance Trump gives him to demonstrate he is standing up for Canada helps with the forthcoming election. Will it even be a Liberal lead as average soon?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,947
    Legend....

    Johnny Ball on Playschool: ‘I dropkicked Humpty through the round window’

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2025/03/13/johnny-ball-interview-zoe-ball/
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,471
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The Department for Work and Pensions has published new figures highlighting the sharp rise in the number of people claiming the top rate of universal credit for people with sickness or a disability.

    It says there are now 1.8 million people in this category – up from 1.4 million a year ago.

    At the start of the pandemic there were only 360,000 people in this category, the DWP says.

    The DWP says that some of the increase were expected, because sick and disabled people were migrating to universal credit from other benefits, but 70% of the increase was not expected by the department. It says the UK is the only G7 country with higher levels of economic activity than before Covid.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/mar/13/keir-starmer-speech-civil-service-ai-labour-benefit-cuts-conservatives-uk-politics-latest-news

    One of the reasons is that they are not doing Work Capability reassessments. So people stay on the highest level even if they have recovered or improved. Whereas people who get worse can request one.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,927
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Ed Balls, the former Labour shadow chancellor, has said the government would be wrong to cut disability benefits for the most vulnerable people in society.

    He was speaking in the latest episode of Political Currency, the podcast he co-hosts with George Osborne, the former Tory chancellor, who said that when he was at the Treasury he ruled out freezing Pip (the personal independence payment – a disability benefit) because he thought that was not very fair.

    Osborne said he did try to cut eligibility for Pip in his 2016 budget, hoping to save £4bn, “which I guess, adjusting for inflation, is roughly what Labour is looking for now”. But Iain Duncan Smith, the then welfare secretary, resigned in protest, “and I had to back down”, Osborne said.

    Diverting money from benefits to care and treatment to get rid of the massive backlogs seems win/win.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,421
    kle4 said:

    david_herdson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Carney appeals tariffs to WTO

    Trump is threatening to leave so he is hardly going to suddenly change his barmy policies

    It won't be about changing Trump's mind directly; it's about Carney getting his ducks lined up domestically and in terms of wider global opinion and making explicit that the US govt is an unreliable partner.
    Every chance Trump gives him to demonstrate he is standing up for Canada helps with the forthcoming election. Will it even be a Liberal lead as average soon?
    In any case, if there is a case to bring to the WTO then you bring it. If you didn’t it would beg the question why not. Doesn’t matter whether he thinks Trump will pay any attention. Carney is a technocrat who believes in multilateral institutions and the “rules based international order”. So it’s a no brainer.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,499
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,181
    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
    Good, it’s what he’s promised. Slash bureaucracy and improve productivity. At least he’s doing something, hopefully it works.

    Mind you I bet they all get decent pay offs and not just the basic minimum though
    It's extremely good news. Well done Starmer and Streeting.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,181
    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Why? The NHS is the main job of the Department of Health. Why do you need the Department of Health if not to run the NHS?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,499
    HYUFD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
    It's nice to see the BBC condemning the Government with click bait headlines after all the pro-Government propaganda seen for years before last July.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,499
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,116
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
    Good, it’s what he’s promised. Slash bureaucracy and improve productivity. At least he’s doing something, hopefully it works.

    Mind you I bet they all get decent pay offs and not just the basic minimum though
    It's extremely good news. Well done Starmer and Streeting.
    The logical end-point is to abolish devolution as well. Would Starmer have the guts to do it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    williamglenn said:

    The dynamics are very different because Canadian identity is so bound up in being "not American". We don't have the same hang up, despite the penetration of American culture.

    We are definitely No Trump, though.
    However you might wish otherwise.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    williamglenn said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
    Good, it’s what he’s promised. Slash bureaucracy and improve productivity. At least he’s doing something, hopefully it works.

    Mind you I bet they all get decent pay offs and not just the basic minimum though
    It's extremely good news. Well done Starmer and Streeting.
    The logical end-point is to abolish devolution as well. Would Starmer have the guts to do it?
    Not really as this was an England only quango and Starmer hasn't set up an England only Parliament
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,116
    HYUFD said:

    williamglenn said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
    Good, it’s what he’s promised. Slash bureaucracy and improve productivity. At least he’s doing something, hopefully it works.

    Mind you I bet they all get decent pay offs and not just the basic minimum though
    It's extremely good news. Well done Starmer and Streeting.
    The logical end-point is to abolish devolution as well. Would Starmer have the guts to do it?
    Not really as this was an England only quango and Starmer hasn't set up an England only Parliament
    Why not abolish NHS Scotland too and run it all from the Department of Health?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,882
    Starmer, govt is hiding behind quangos.

    He’s right

    https://x.com/g0adm/status/1900153224088216060?s=61
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,321
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    david_herdson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Carney appeals tariffs to WTO

    Trump is threatening to leave so he is hardly going to suddenly change his barmy policies

    It won't be about changing Trump's mind directly; it's about Carney getting his ducks lined up domestically and in terms of wider global opinion and making explicit that the US govt is an unreliable partner.
    Every chance Trump gives him to demonstrate he is standing up for Canada helps with the forthcoming election. Will it even be a Liberal lead as average soon?
    In any case, if there is a case to bring to the WTO then you bring it. If you didn’t it would beg the question why not. Doesn’t matter whether he thinks Trump will pay any attention. Carney is a technocrat who believes in multilateral institutions and the “rules based international order”. So it’s a
    no brainer.
    I thought the WTO courts weren’t quotation because the US had refused to nominate representatives?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,882
    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    If only she had been in a position to do anything about it in the last five years !
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,499
    edited 6:10PM
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,947
    edited 6:14PM
    Taz said:

    Starmer, govt is hiding behind quangos.

    He’s right

    https://x.com/g0adm/status/1900153224088216060?s=61

    It would be more believable if they hadn't set up 29 new quangos so far and countless independent inquiry / panels / etc.

    This particular quango is down to Tory NHS restructuring in 2012 and Streeting has demanded much more control over the NHS in order to improve performance with the NHS England top team have all said they would leave anyway.

    The proof will be if they really do reduce head count and improve performance, or will it turn into so many government efficiency drives or BBC restructuring, where it just ends up with people working under a different banner or as a freelancer on even more money.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,499
    edited 6:12PM
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
    Are we as NATO going to recapture Kyiv after Putin breaks the ceasefire and takes Ukraine?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    edited 6:13PM
    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
    Are we as NATO going to recapture Kyiv after Putin breaks the ceasefire and takes Ukraine.
    No we didn't last time, just provide aid as before.

    If Putin broke an agreed ceasefire US arms to Ukraine would also likely resume based on Trump's statements but a ceasefire has to be agreed first to break
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,552
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Absurd.

    It's not "Lord Gus O'Donnell". He isn't the younger son of a duke or marquess. He's Lord O'Donnell.

    Pah.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,499
    edited 6:14PM
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
    Are we as NATO going to recapture Kyiv after Putin breaks the ceasefire and takes Ukraine.
    No we didn't last time, just provide aid as before.

    If Putin broke an agreed ceasefire US arms to Ukraine would also likely resume based on Trump's statements but a ceasefire has to be agreed first to break
    Then your programme of rearming Ukraine after they have been captured by Moscow means you are too late.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    So no she is NOT on board as such she said it was Starmer and Streeting's decision not hers and if it fails to make life better for patients or significant savings then the Opposition will blame the government
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,116
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1900241659733954583

    Trump: "To be honest with you, Canada only works as a state. We don't need anything they have. As a state it would be one of the great states. This would be the most incredible country visually. If you look at a map, they drew an artificial line right through it."
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,759
    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    I don't understand @HYUFD

    Earlier I said Hunt supports it and now Kemi apparently and yet he is just contrary

    It is a good decision even if it takes 2 years to change the legislation but as in all incumbent governments Labour will win in 2028 only if voters see and experience the change and also in their pockets
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,499
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    So no she is NOT on board as such she said it was Starmer and Streeting's decision not hers and if it fails to make life better for patients or significant savings then the Opposition will blame the government
    She ( and Hunt) seemed less hostile than you do to overturning Lansley's reforms.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 541
    williamglenn said:

    HYUFD said:

    williamglenn said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
    Good, it’s what he’s promised. Slash bureaucracy and improve productivity. At least he’s doing something, hopefully it works.

    Mind you I bet they all get decent pay offs and not just the basic minimum though
    It's extremely good news. Well done Starmer and Streeting.
    The logical end-point is to abolish devolution as well. Would Starmer have the guts to do it?
    Not really as this was an England only quango and Starmer hasn't set up an England only Parliament
    Why not abolish NHS Scotland too and run it all from the Department of Health?
    That would be an ecumenical matter.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    williamglenn said:

    HYUFD said:

    williamglenn said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
    Good, it’s what he’s promised. Slash bureaucracy and improve productivity. At least he’s doing something, hopefully it works.

    Mind you I bet they all get decent pay offs and not just the basic minimum though
    It's extremely good news. Well done Starmer and Streeting.
    The logical end-point is to abolish devolution as well. Would Starmer have the guts to do it?
    Not really as this was an England only quango and Starmer hasn't set up an England only Parliament
    Why not abolish NHS Scotland too and run it all from the Department of Health?
    Even if abolished it would be returned to the Scottish Health and Social Care Directorates as all healthcare in Scotland is devolved as is the NHS in Scotland
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,181
    williamglenn said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
    Good, it’s what he’s promised. Slash bureaucracy and improve productivity. At least he’s doing something, hopefully it works.

    Mind you I bet they all get decent pay offs and not just the basic minimum though
    It's extremely good news. Well done Starmer and Streeting.
    The logical end-point is to abolish devolution as well. Would Starmer have the guts to do it?
    No. Nor would it seem advisable.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,759
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    So no she is NOT on board as such she said it was Starmer and Streeting's decision not hers and if it fails to make life better for patients or significant savings then the Opposition will blame the government
    So she is on board if it make savings then and if it doesn't then Starmer and Streeting will have to answer for it

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    edited 6:21PM
    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    So no she is NOT on board as such she said it was Starmer and Streeting's decision not hers and if it fails to make life better for patients or significant savings then the Opposition will blame the government
    She ( and Hunt) seemed less hostile than you do to overturning Lansley's reforms.
    Not their decision, though Kemi was notably less enthusiastic than Hunt anyway it is LABOUR who scrapped it and LABOUR who will be responsible for ALL the job losses and LABOUR who will be responsible for lack of NHS improvement
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,947
    edited 6:22PM
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    So no she is NOT on board as such she said it was Starmer and Streeting's decision not hers and if it fails to make life better for patients or significant savings then the Opposition will blame the government
    So she is on board if it make savings then and if it doesn't then Starmer and Streeting will have to answer for it

    Politically it is one of the few sensible moves she has made.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,116
    HYUFD said:

    williamglenn said:

    HYUFD said:

    williamglenn said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
    Good, it’s what he’s promised. Slash bureaucracy and improve productivity. At least he’s doing something, hopefully it works.

    Mind you I bet they all get decent pay offs and not just the basic minimum though
    It's extremely good news. Well done Starmer and Streeting.
    The logical end-point is to abolish devolution as well. Would Starmer have the guts to do it?
    Not really as this was an England only quango and Starmer hasn't set up an England only Parliament
    Why not abolish NHS Scotland too and run it all from the Department of Health?
    Even if abolished it would be returned to the Scottish Health and Social Care Directorates as all healthcare in Scotland is devolved as is the NHS in Scotland
    To quote Keir Starmer: "I can’t in all honesty explain to the British people why they should spend their money on two layers of bureaucracy."

    Devolution isn't working and it's a waste of taxpayers' money.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,658
    edited 6:23PM
    Wonder how many people are looking at the headline "NHS England Scrapped" and thinking that means the NHS will be scrapped?

    The number of people that actually know the name of the quango is probably very small... And I must admit I did a slight double take when I first saw the headline this morning (and I'm a lot more politically aware than the average person)
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,321
    TOPPING said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Absurd.

    It's not "Lord Gus O'Donnell". He isn't the younger son of a duke or marquess. He's Lord O'Donnell.


    Pah.
    He likes to be addressed as Lord GO’D
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,759
    edited 6:23PM
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    So no she is NOT on board as such she said it was Starmer and Streeting's decision not hers and if it fails to make life better for patients or significant savings then the Opposition will blame the government
    She ( and Hunt) seemed less hostile than you do to overturning Lansley's reforms.
    Not their decision, though Kemi was notably less enthusiastic than Hunt anyway it is LABOUR who scrapped it and LABOUR who will be responsible for ALL the job losses and LABOUR who will be responsible for lack of NHS improvement
    Why are you shouting and why are you so devisive

    It was welcomed across the house though SNP not involved

    I have to say if you want a conservative government then stop alienating so many
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,181
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    So no she is NOT on board as such she said it was Starmer and Streeting's decision not hers and if it fails to make life better for patients or significant savings then the Opposition will blame the government
    She ( and Hunt) seemed less hostile than you do to overturning Lansley's reforms.
    Not their decision, though Kemi was notably less enthusiastic than Hunt anyway it is LABOUR who scrapped it and LABOUR who will be responsible for ALL the job losses and LABOUR who will be responsible for lack of NHS improvement
    This is a rather bizarre outburst from you on the subject of NHS ENGLAND of all things. The Department of Health is quite capable of running the NHS which is also managed at a regional level by trusts before you even get near a hospital. Is someone you know concerned?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
    Are we as NATO going to recapture Kyiv after Putin breaks the ceasefire and takes Ukraine.
    No we didn't last time, just provide aid as before.

    If Putin broke an agreed ceasefire US arms to Ukraine would also likely resume based on Trump's statements but a ceasefire has to be agreed first to break
    Then your programme of rearming Ukraine after they have been captured by Moscow means you are too late.
    Utter crap, the moment Russian troops broke a ceasefire arms would resume, they couldn't even capture Kyiv last time.

    However Zelensky would have to have accepted a ceasefire on such terms anyway
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,151
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
    Are we as NATO going to recapture Kyiv after Putin breaks the ceasefire and takes Ukraine.
    No we didn't last time, just provide aid as before.

    If Putin broke an agreed ceasefire US arms to Ukraine would also likely resume based on Trump's statements but a ceasefire has to be agreed first to break
    Putin and Trump would just blame Ukraine for breaking the ceasefire.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,824
    williamglenn said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Headline on BBC may now not be what Starmer wanted 'Thousands to lose jobs as Starmer scraps NHS England to cut 'bureaucracy'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt
    Good, it’s what he’s promised. Slash bureaucracy and improve productivity. At least he’s doing something, hopefully it works.

    Mind you I bet they all get decent pay offs and not just the basic minimum though
    It's extremely good news. Well done Starmer and Streeting.
    The logical end-point is to abolish devolution as well. Would Starmer have the guts to do it?
    Indeed: do we even need local councils?

    Or indeed national governments.

    Everything should simply be decided by President for Life Trump.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
    Are we as NATO going to recapture Kyiv after Putin breaks the ceasefire and takes Ukraine.
    No we didn't last time, just provide aid as before.

    If Putin broke an agreed ceasefire US arms to Ukraine would also likely resume based on Trump's statements but a ceasefire has to be agreed first to break
    Putin and Trump would just blame Ukraine for breaking the ceasefire.
    Then NATO arms even absent US would resume to Ukraine
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    So no she is NOT on board as such she said it was Starmer and Streeting's decision not hers and if it fails to make life better for patients or significant savings then the Opposition will blame the government
    She ( and Hunt) seemed less hostile than you do to overturning Lansley's reforms.
    Not their decision, though Kemi was notably less enthusiastic than Hunt anyway it is LABOUR who scrapped it and LABOUR who will be responsible for ALL the job losses and LABOUR who will be responsible for lack of NHS improvement
    This is a rather bizarre outburst from you on the subject of NHS ENGLAND of all things. The Department of Health is quite capable of running the NHS which is also managed at a regional level by trusts before you even get near a hospital. Is someone you know concerned?
    NHS England was created in 2012 precisely as the Dept of Health wasn't, we will see if any different this time
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    So no she is NOT on board as such she said it was Starmer and Streeting's decision not hers and if it fails to make life better for patients or significant savings then the Opposition will blame the government
    She ( and Hunt) seemed less hostile than you do to overturning Lansley's reforms.
    Not their decision, though Kemi was notably less enthusiastic than Hunt anyway it is LABOUR who scrapped it and LABOUR who will be responsible for ALL the job losses and LABOUR who will be responsible for lack of NHS improvement
    As a Conservative, shouldn't you be supporting getting rid of as many quango's as possible?
    NHS England was created by the CONSERVATIVES
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,499
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
    Are we as NATO going to recapture Kyiv after Putin breaks the ceasefire and takes Ukraine.
    No we didn't last time, just provide aid as before.

    If Putin broke an agreed ceasefire US arms to Ukraine would also likely resume based on Trump's statements but a ceasefire has to be agreed first to break
    Then your programme of rearming Ukraine after they have been captured by Moscow means you are too late.
    Utter crap, the moment Russian troops broke a ceasefire arms would resume, they couldn't even capture Kyiv last time.

    However Zelensky would have to have accepted a ceasefire on such terms anyway
    Yeah but last time Ukraine had soldiers and weaponry. This time if they follow your advice they won't have soldiers and weaponry.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,181
    StillWaters said:

    TOPPING said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    Absurd.

    It's not "Lord Gus O'Donnell". He isn't the younger son of a duke or marquess. He's Lord O'Donnell.


    Pah.
    He likes to be addressed as Lord GO’D
    If senior civil servants are going to deliver crap performance because they encounter a rebuke, maybe they shouldn't be in a job.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    Who before this year though we’d be supporting German rearmament, after a stab in the back by the US ?

    Strange times.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,321
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    So no she is NOT on board as such she said it was Starmer and Streeting's decision not hers and if it fails to make life better for patients or significant savings then the Opposition will blame the government
    She ( and Hunt) seemed less hostile than you do to overturning Lansley's reforms.
    Not their decision, though Kemi was notably less enthusiastic than Hunt anyway it is LABOUR who scrapped it and LABOUR who will be responsible for ALL the job
    losses and LABOUR who will be responsible for lack of NHS improvement
    This is a rather bizarre outburst from you on the subject of NHS ENGLAND of all things. The Department of Health is quite capable of running the NHS which is also managed at a regional level by trusts before you even get near a hospital. Is someone you know concerned?
    Controversial. I’m not sure the department of health is “quite capable” of running a whelk stall let alone the NHS
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    edited 6:28PM
    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
    Are we as NATO going to recapture Kyiv after Putin breaks the ceasefire and takes Ukraine.
    No we didn't last time, just provide aid as before.

    If Putin broke an agreed ceasefire US arms to Ukraine would also likely resume based on Trump's statements but a ceasefire has to be agreed first to break
    Then your programme of rearming Ukraine after they have been captured by Moscow means you are too late.
    Utter crap, the moment Russian troops broke a ceasefire arms would resume, they couldn't even capture Kyiv last time.

    However Zelensky would have to have accepted a ceasefire on such terms anyway
    Yeah but last time Ukraine had soldiers and weaponry. This time if they follow your advice they won't have soldiers and weaponry.
    Why? They have soldiers and weaponry now which they could put in storage for if and when a ceasefire is broken.

    If Putin and Zelensky agree a ceasefire that is for them, you clearly would rather you and your house were evaporated by a Russian nuke!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,999
    williamglenn said:

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1900241659733954583

    Trump: "To be honest with you, Canada only works as a state. We don't need anything they have. As a state it would be one of the great states. This would be the most incredible country visually. If you look at a map, they drew an artificial line right through it."

    Why is this guy so obsessed with Canadian sovereignty? If the USA doesn't need anything they have why even want them to be a state?

    Is he just riffing because when he first said it it got headlines?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,156
    williamglenn said:

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1900241659733954583

    Trump: "To be honest with you, Canada only works as a state. We don't need anything they have. As a state it would be one of the great states. This would be the most incredible country visually. If you look at a map, they drew an artificial line right through it."

    In my Anglosphere Federation, Canada would actually be 13 States (and the UK 4 States).

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/5149301#Comment_5149301
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,499
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
    Are we as NATO going to recapture Kyiv after Putin breaks the ceasefire and takes Ukraine.
    No we didn't last time, just provide aid as before.

    If Putin broke an agreed ceasefire US arms to Ukraine would also likely resume based on Trump's statements but a ceasefire has to be agreed first to break
    Then your programme of rearming Ukraine after they have been captured by Moscow means you are too late.
    Utter crap, the moment Russian troops broke a ceasefire arms would resume, they couldn't even capture Kyiv last time.

    However Zelensky would have to have accepted a ceasefire on such terms anyway
    It might not be in Zelenskyy's gift it Trumpy has his way.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
    Are we as NATO going to recapture Kyiv after Putin breaks the ceasefire and takes Ukraine.
    No we didn't last time, just provide aid as before.

    If Putin broke an agreed ceasefire US arms to Ukraine would also likely resume based on Trump's statements but a ceasefire has to be agreed first to break
    Then your programme of rearming Ukraine after they have been captured by Moscow means you are too late.
    Utter crap, the moment Russian troops broke a ceasefire arms would resume, they couldn't even capture Kyiv last time.

    However Zelensky would have to have accepted a ceasefire on such terms anyway
    Pompey vs Caesar just prior to the Civil War

    - I’ll give up stuff if he does
    - Neither side has any trust.

    The sensible thing to do is to take a leaf out of North Vietnams book. Sign anything. Then get ready for a march on Moscow.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,552
    edited 6:28PM
    GIN1138 said:

    Wonder how many people are looking at the headline "NHS England Scrapped" and thinking that means the NHS will be scrapped?

    The number of people that actually know the name of the quango is probably very small... And I must admit I did a slight double take when I first saw the headline this morning (and I'm a lot more politically aware than the average person)

    Telling that the BBC website has a section titled "What does NHS England do."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    Putin says he’s open to ceasefire, but wants to eliminate ’causes of this crisis’*
    https://thehill.com/policy/international/5193355-russia-ukraine-ceasefire-proposal/

    *Ukraine
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,116
    edited 6:29PM
    HYUFD said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Keir Starmer's tone towards civil servants has been "nothing short of disastrous" according to a former cabinet secretary - the highest official in the civil service.

    Lord Gus O’Donnell served under three prime ministers as cabinet secretary between 2005 and 2011, and he tells BBC’s Radio 4’s PM programme that Starmer’s rhetoric around the “flabby state” has been damaging for his relationship with civil servants.

    He explains: “Believe it or not, if you talk to civil servants and say they like managed decline and that you're going to take a chainsaw to them - do you think that's actually going to result in them performing at their best?"

    As for the decision to scrap NHS England, O’Donnell suggests this has also been “chaotic”, but may save “a relatively small amount of money”.

    “If they can turn this into a way of making better decisions which leads to improvements in our health service then I think it will be justified,” he says, adding that he’s not so sure if this is what will happen.

    The scrapping of the NHS ( England) does look like an absolute catastrophe. Kemi Badenoch is supporting the move!
    Kemi hasn't said anything about it, Davey backs Starmer's decision despite the fact it was the Coalition government he was in that created NHS England in the first place so day to day running of the NHS was overseen by an independent body not the Department of Health.

    In fact 'Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Alex Burghart cast doubts over the decision, saying Sir Keir Starmer has yet to set out "how this is going to make life better for patients" or "how much money he is going to save by doing it".

    https://www.itn.co.uk/news/conservatives-react-nhs-england-abolishment-0
    I just heard it on the BBC R4 6 o clock news. Kemi is on board. She said the Government will now be measured on NHS progress as they are now directly in the driving seat They can't blame anyone else.
    So no she is NOT on board as such she said it was Starmer and Streeting's decision not hers and if it fails to make life better for patients or significant savings then the Opposition will blame the government
    She ( and Hunt) seemed less hostile than you do to overturning Lansley's reforms.
    Not their decision, though Kemi was notably less enthusiastic than Hunt anyway it is LABOUR who scrapped it and LABOUR who will be responsible for ALL the job losses and LABOUR who will be responsible for lack of NHS improvement
    This is a rather bizarre outburst from you on the subject of NHS ENGLAND of all things. The Department of Health is quite capable of running the NHS which is also managed at a regional level by trusts before you even get near a hospital. Is someone you know concerned?
    NHS England was created in 2012 precisely as the Dept of Health wasn't, we will see if any different this time
    As his term of office fades into the past, Cameron increasingly looks like one of the worst prime ministers in our history. The British Obama.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,646
    Putin waiting to see results of Kursk retaking offence says Assoc Press
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,321
    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin says he will agree a ceasefire that leads to an 'enduring peace' but with conditions that Ukraine likely won't accept

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cgj5w6veqw6t

    And Trump will pressure Ukraine to accept conditions - like no weapons shipments.

    And Ukraine will reluctantly concede.

    And then Russia will attack again in six months time.
    And then weapons shipments to Ukraine would start again, maybe even from the US if Russia breached the deal
    It'll be a bit late by then.
    Why? A few months for Europe and Canada to invest in arms and defence via a ceasefire and if Russia breaches could then be deployed
    Are we as NATO going to recapture Kyiv after Putin breaks the ceasefire and takes Ukraine.
    No we didn't last time, just provide aid as before.

    If Putin broke an agreed ceasefire US arms to Ukraine would also likely resume based on Trump's statements but a ceasefire has to be agreed first to break
    Then your programme of rearming Ukraine after they have been captured by Moscow means you are too late.
    Utter crap, the moment Russian troops broke a ceasefire arms would resume, they couldn't even capture Kyiv last time.

    However Zelensky would have to have accepted a ceasefire on such terms anyway
    Yeah but last time Ukraine had soldiers and weaponry. This time if they follow your advice they won't have soldiers and weaponry.
    Why? They have soldiers and weaponry now which they could put in storage for if and when a ceasefire is broken.

    If Putin and Zelensky agree a ceasefire that
    is for them, you clearly would rather you and
    your house were evaporated by a Russian
    nuke!
    Are you just being argumentative, or do you truly not understand how unbalanced Russia’s proposal is?

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,185
    edited 6:31PM
    Former Tory mayor, 67, died in a crack den after putting a plastic bag over his head and tying himself to a chair while seeking sexual pleasure, inquest hears

    A former Tory Mayor suffocated to death in a crack den after putting a plastic bag over his head and tying himself to a chair while seeking sexual pleasure, an inquest heard.

    The body of Les Winwood, 67, who was the former mayor of Bridgenorth, Shropshire, was found at a Wolverhampton property on July 17, 2022.

    An inquest heard how a post-mortem examination found he had spent hours alone consuming crack cocaine and vodka before he was found dead in a camping chair in the market town of Bilston.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14492185/Former-Tory-mayor-67-died-crack-den-putting-plastic-bag-head-tying-chair-seeking-sexual-pleasure-inquest-hears.html

    Stephen Milligan de nos jours.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429
    kle4 said:

    williamglenn said:

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1900241659733954583

    Trump: "To be honest with you, Canada only works as a state. We don't need anything they have. As a state it would be one of the great states. This would be the most incredible country visually. If you look at a map, they drew an artificial line right through it."

    Why is this guy so obsessed with Canadian sovereignty? If the USA doesn't need anything they have why even want them to be a state?

    Is he just riffing because when he first said it it got headlines?
    He is living in a comic book (written by Frank Miller) version of 1812.

    Madness? THIS! IS! AMERICA!
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