It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Zelensky should point out that they've destroyed 10k Russian tanks.
Russian tanks which were built to kill Americans and now never will.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Yes, you’re right. And possibly Macron too? I can’t remember.
Vance seems to be the licensed pitbull. God only knows what’s driving him.
We have covered this. He's a c**t.
100% But I think it’s useful to try to understand the underlying thought process.
Trump, Musk and Vance all have different “journeys”. So do Hegseth and the rest of them.
Also, Trump runs a chaotic court. Vance may be influential today, but tomorrow it could be Barron Trump, or Donald’s chiropodist, or the ghost of fucking Jacob Marley.
I vote for Marley's ghost. By far and away the most sensible.
I've watched the whole press conference now. That went quite smoothly for some 40 minutes.
Zelensky was using it to make his case to the US press and maybe, usefully, could have said a little less, but there was nothing in the exchanges that I'd consider undiplomatic, and Trump aside from the odd typical jibe against his US opponents held court in a cordial fashion. There was little sign of what was to come until JD Vance went on a pretty much unprovoked attack and Trump eventually turned and joined in.
Whether Vance screwed up and Trump covered for him or whether it was a pre-planned mugging on Vance's and maybe Trump's part, I do not know. I tend to the latter because the lines were there - "see what we're dealing with", but I'm not 100% positive on that.
And if Starmer's "do what is necessary when it is necessary" approach is to talk to the actual actors rather than tweet about it, then fine.
Thanks for this. I actually trust many fellow PBers to give a more reasobable interpretation of events than many of the news media.
Certainly in America it’s not really possible to get news that is not unhealthily biased one way or another.
If you have time for the full thing yourself, I actually watched the 1h5m YouTube live coverage from a Fox feed!
SKS has spent his time talking to both of them rather than tweeting. As he should be.
Yes but he should have put out a statement expressing concern and the steps he is taking. Basic comms fail, and not for the first time.
On the lines of "The only thing that matters at this point is to ensure the long term success of Ukraine. To that end I am talking to several of the key people to build the common ground"
I think the govt have put out almost exactly that statement - someone quoted it about an hour ago.
Trump (and Vance) have off course never addressed the fact that Putin showns no signs of actually wanting peace.
They didn't like listening to Zelensky listing the many times Russia had broken a ceasefire. Zelensky is quite correct that Ukraine needs a lot more than another ceasefire, he knows that Russia only uses them to re-arm.
Zelenskyy must be very confident that he is going to get massive support on Sunday. The man is incredibly brave but he is not an idiot and he is carrying his country on his back.
Trump screamed at him that he had no cards. His cutting reply was that he wasn’t playing cards. But I suspect that he had an Ace in his back pocket.
In which event it will be Trump that has overplayed his hand.
I've not seen anyone point it out yet, so apologies if anyone has, but the 'mic drop' moment for me was when Trump said during the argument that if it wasn't for America the war would have been over in 2 weeks and Zelensky immediately retorted "in 3 days, I heard it from Putin".
Trump is just openly parroting Putin's lines and good on Zelensky for calling him out on it. Putin was wrong, and Trump is wrong.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Yes, you’re right. And possibly Macron too? I can’t remember.
Vance seems to be the licensed pitbull. God only knows what’s driving him.
I've never read Hillbilly Elegy and I've never read Mein Kampf. But I suspect they may have something in common. "The country I love is a shit show. It must be someone else's fault." That sort of thing.
I've watched the whole press conference now. That went quite smoothly for some 40 minutes.
Zelensky was using it to make his case to the US press and maybe, usefully, could have said a little less, but there was nothing in the exchanges that I'd consider undiplomatic, and Trump aside from the odd typical jibe against his US opponents held court in a cordial fashion. There was little sign of what was to come until JD Vance went on a pretty much unprovoked attack and Trump eventually turned and joined in.
Whether Vance screwed up and Trump covered for him or whether it was a pre-planned mugging on Vance's and maybe Trump's part, I do not know. I tend to the latter because the lines were there - "see what we're dealing with", but I'm not 100% positive on that.
And if Starmer's "do what is necessary when it is necessary" approach is to talk to the actual actors rather than tweet about it, then fine.
Thanks for this. I actually trust many fellow PBers to give a more reasobable interpretation of events than many of the news media.
Certainly in America it’s not really possible to get news that is not unhealthily biased one way or another.
If you have time for the full thing yourself, I actually watched the 1h5m YouTube live coverage from a Fox feed!
I would rather he lowers the temperature than escalates for dramatic effect. We need to buy time.
We’re still all assuming Trump and his cabal are rational actors. They’re not. They need to get hardball treatment, as Canada has shown.
It took us 2 decades to realise that about Putin. Are we really going to make the same mistake again?
Sure, but there no sense in escalating now. The damage is done. We need to buy time.
No no no. Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions. Otherwise it’s appeasement.
“Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions”
Okay. What measures are you suggesting?
Hearts are ruling over heads on here for many at the moment, understandably.
The answer 'what should Starmer do?' seems quite obvious, to me at least. Get our very best people to pull together a plan to (a) get our own military to sufficient strength and (b) build alliances that together will allow us to confidently assert the European view in this as soon as we possibly can.
Work from the date at which we can make that confident assertion - up to that point, do whatever is needed to deescalate. Beyond that point, utterly reject the moral and strategic idiocy from the white house and take no prisoners in our defence of western liberal values.
This is within our power. But it will need a lot of squeamishness in the meantime as we work with the reality that we remain, for the moment, America's poodle.
I agree. In politics you can only sensibly move when you are ready to, only call the vote when you are confident on numbers.
UK defence is so woven in to US defence now, well has been for a long while, both Chagos deals very much greased by that that fact. Which doesn’t give us all that much freedom, in a situation where the Whitehouse has gone loony.
Talking of which, where’s the arch Don Rimmer Leon?
Where’s Leon? Swallowed by his own sandpit?
I suspect he has been cultivating another personality on here for a while that will allow him to shift his views with no loss of face. I have my suspicions about @Winchy, with abject apologies to you Winchy as I'm probably wrong.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Zelensky should point out that they've destroyed 10k Russian tanks.
Russian tanks which were built to kill Americans and now never will.
This can't be repeated too often. Ukraine is destroying the last remnants of America's historic enemy and it hasn't cost a single American life. What more can they ask for?
Reform's support won't be affected, because most of their supporters care almost entirely about domestic topics (with immigration being included in that definition) and aren't really interested in foreign affairs.
Unprecedented. Shocking. This public verbal spat, this haranguing in the White House of a visiting president is dramatic. Zelensky invited it by being argumentative instead of tactfully steering the exchange in a more positive direction. He has been lionised so much that he has developed an inordinate sense of entitlement. He has lectured European leaders and got away with it. It hasn’t worked with Trump and Vance.
The Indian clips on Youtube are always very anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian.
William must scrape what barrels are available.
Anyone remember when William Glenn was strongly pro EU? Has he ever explained why he did such an about turn to alt right fanboy?
It is a strange one for me. For a good few years in the lead up to 2016 William was my mortal enemy (in a PB manner of speaking) with his fanatical support for the EU vs my equally fanatical support for leaving.
Then after the vote he switched to supporting Brexit with a vehemence equal to or exceeding my own, if I remember rightly he was even supporting the actions by the Johnson government that I thought were wrong - such as prorogation and attacking the courts.
Since then he has become more and more right wing until he is almost as far away from me politically now as he was back prior to the referendum but in exactly the opposite direction. I feel like I have stood still and he has swept past me.
Its interesting to see how PBers seem to have moved politically.
I can think of two other leading PBers who seem to have moved significantly to the right.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Yes, you’re right. And possibly Macron too? I can’t remember.
Vance seems to be the licensed pitbull. God only knows what’s driving him.
I've never read Hillbilly Elegy and I've never read Mein Kampf. But I suspect they may have something in common. "The country I love is a shit show. It must be someone else's fault." That sort of thing.
Hillbilly Elegy was applauded by good American liberals and Hollywood even made a film about it.
I think Vance is a good, old-fashioned American isolationist, whose aesthetic dislike of “Old Europe” has curdled into outward hatred and proto-fascism.
The man is clearly deeply confused and angry. He’s essentially run through a string of ideological positions in the last several years. The current one has been very lucrative, though. He’s got very rich on very right-wing VC money.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
I think you’re naive. I think Starmer understands this. The FO understand this and looking two moves ahead can see the consequences of this, which are far more serious than things appear. Anything you can do to buy time is valuable.
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
“Realism” is what gave Putin so many easy wins in his first decade of power.
I await the first evidence that treating Trump like a serious and honest interlocutor rather than a malignant narcissist pays dividends.
In the meantime I’m happy to be called naive by the towering intellects of PB.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Zelensky should point out that they've destroyed 10k Russian tanks.
Russian tanks which were built to kill Americans and now never will.
They were only "built to kill Americans" to the extent that Europe expected Americans to be the ones to die defending it, which is exactly the problem.
I would rather he lowers the temperature than escalates for dramatic effect. We need to buy time.
We’re still all assuming Trump and his cabal are rational actors. They’re not. They need to get hardball treatment, as Canada has shown.
It took us 2 decades to realise that about Putin. Are we really going to make the same mistake again?
Sure, but there no sense in escalating now. The damage is done. We need to buy time.
No no no. Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions. Otherwise it’s appeasement.
“Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions”
Okay. What measures are you suggesting?
Hearts are ruling over heads on here for many at the moment, understandably.
The answer 'what should Starmer do?' seems quite obvious, to me at least. Get our very best people to pull together a plan to (a) get our own military to sufficient strength and (b) build alliances that together will allow us to confidently assert the European view in this as soon as we possibly can.
Work from the date at which we can make that confident assertion - up to that point, do whatever is needed to deescalate. Beyond that point, utterly reject the moral and strategic idiocy from the white house and take no prisoners in our defence of western liberal values.
This is within our power. But it will need a lot of squeamishness in the meantime as we work with the reality that we remain, for the moment, America's poodle.
I agree. In politics you can only sensibly move when you are ready to, only call the vote when you are confident on numbers.
UK defence is so woven in to US defence now, well has been for a long while, both Chagos deals very much greased by that that fact. Which doesn’t give us all that much freedom, in a situation where the Whitehouse has gone loony.
Talking of which, where’s the arch Don Rimmer Leon?
Where’s Leon? Swallowed by his own sandpit?
I suspect he has been cultivating another personality on here for a while that will allow him to shift his views with no loss of face. I have my suspicions about @Winchy, with abject apologies to you Winchy as I'm probably wrong.
TBF to Leon I think he's just a series of performing characters on PB, though the individual allegedly behind him comes as a piece of work.
But that's the Spectator for you. AFAICS they are still at about 192* from last time round - the useful idiots for Mussolini stage - and are due to change horses soon wrt Trump.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Yes, you’re right. And possibly Macron too? I can’t remember.
Vance seems to be the licensed pitbull. God only knows what’s driving him.
I've never read Hillbilly Elegy and I've never read Mein Kampf. But I suspect they may have something in common. "The country I love is a shit show. It must be someone else's fault." That sort of thing.
Hillbilly Elegy was applauded by good American liberals and Hollywood even made a film about it.
I think Vance is a good, old-fashioned American isolationist, whose aesthetic dislike of “Old Europe” has curdled into outward hatred and proto-fascism.
The man is clearly deeply confused and angry. He’s essentially run through a string of ideological positions in the last several years. The current one has been very lucrative, though. He’s got very rich on very right-wing VC money.
I always wondered how during the Cold War when Trump was first with Ivana he could come and go into Eastern Europe when Berliners were being shot for climbing fences to West Berlin. I was watching a YouTube channel that said he was first baled out by the Kremlin circa 1980.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
I think you’re naive. I think Starmer understands this. The FO understand this and looking two moves ahead can see the consequences of this, which are far more serious than things appear. Anything you can do to buy time is valuable.
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
“Realism” is what gave Putin so many easy wins in his first decade of power.
I await the first evidence that treating Trump like a serious and honest interlocutor rather than a malignant narcissist pays dividends.
In the meantime I’m happy to be called naive by the towering intellects of PB.
I think it's a different sort of realism that we need. No question over what Trump is - a dangerous toddler, but one with a big stick. So treat him like a malignant narcissist - distract him with baubles, all the while preparing to pull the rug from under him. Don't biff him on the head with a blow up hammer, else he'll throw his toys out of the pram.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
I think you’re naive. I think Starmer understands this. The FO understand this and looking two moves ahead can see the consequences of this, which are far more serious than things appear. Anything you can do to buy time is valuable.
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
“Realism” is what gave Putin so many easy wins in his first decade of power.
I await the first evidence that treating Trump like a serious and honest interlocutor rather than a malignant narcissist pays dividends.
In the meantime I’m happy to be called naive by the towering intellects of PB.
Oh my. I wish I lived in a world where tweets, dramatic gestures and no talking changed things, I really do. But with Putin in the White House we have a major problem that goes far beyond that. We need to box smart to get through this.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Zelensky should point out that they've destroyed 10k Russian tanks.
Russian tanks which were built to kill Americans and now never will.
They were only "built to kill Americans" to the extent that Europe expected Americans to be the ones to die defending it, which is exactly the problem.
Why are Saturday trolls banned for posting the same old shite you post?
I'm surprised that anybody's remotely surprised to discover that Trump is a nasty, unpleasant, rude bully.
All I've learnt today is that Vance is at least as bad, and possibly even more dangerous, being marginally more intelligent.
I'm reminded of the "let's go back in time and kill Hitler" stories that end up with someone just as evil but a bit more clever and ruthless running the Reich.
Didn’t Stephen fry do one like that? Sterilised the Jews and used them to help win the war.
For 80 years the US has been the linchpin of the Western alliance. Now in a matter of weeks it has done an 180 degree turn and seems to want to ally itself with Russia rather than against it.
Were I an Israeli politician, I'd be saying to myself: if the US can do this to long-standing allies, if it can betray a country invaded by those wanting to obliterate its existence, my country can't be certain it won't do the same to us too, one day. And from that realisation policies will flow, policies many of us will not like at all.
The US can no longer be trusted.
Israel has never trusted the US. It’s why they build their own tanks & have their own nuclear deterrent.
They’re very happy to have US support if it’s available to them of course, but that support has not been there when they might have appreciated it in the past & might not be in the future - a reality they are very keenly aware of.
We need to do that. Israel is the only nation that doesn't need the US to set the software for its F35's.
Just what I was about to say. Britain needs to be more like Israel in the defence of our realm.
But not like Israel in offence against our neighbours.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Yes, you’re right. And possibly Macron too? I can’t remember.
Vance seems to be the licensed pitbull. God only knows what’s driving him.
I've never read Hillbilly Elegy and I've never read Mein Kampf. But I suspect they may have something in common. "The country I love is a shit show. It must be someone else's fault." That sort of thing.
Hillbilly Elegy was applauded by good American liberals and Hollywood even made a film about it.
I think Vance is a good, old-fashioned American isolationist, whose aesthetic dislike of “Old Europe” has curdled into outward hatred and proto-fascism.
The man is clearly deeply confused and angry. He’s essentially run through a string of ideological positions in the last several years. The current one has been very lucrative, though. He’s got very rich on very right-wing VC money.
Vance is an angry man.
Angry about his difficult upbringing.
Angry about how he's been belittled because of his background by those born into privilege.
And angry now about how he has to crawl to Trump while being usurped by Musk.
SKS has spent his time talking to both of them rather than tweeting. As he should be.
Yes but he should have put out a statement expressing concern and the steps he is taking. Basic comms fail, and not for the first time.
On the lines of "The only thing that matters at this point is to ensure the long term success of Ukraine. To that end I am talking to several of the key people to build the common ground"
Maybe but who is that comms aimed at? The only people who need to know it are Trump and Zelensky... and he was talking to them.
Aimed at everyone else who might think Starmer only cares about appeasing Trump. They may still think that but he might also get their buy in on what seems like practical steps.
Zelenskyy must be very confident that he is going to get massive support on Sunday. The man is incredibly brave but he is not an idiot and he is carrying his country on his back.
Trump screamed at him that he had no cards. His cutting reply was that he wasn’t playing cards. But I suspect that he had an Ace in his back pocket.
In which event it will be Trump that has overplayed his hand.
I've not seen anyone point it out yet, so apologies if anyone has, but the 'mic drop' moment for me was when Trump said during the argument that if it wasn't for America the war would have been over in 2 weeks and Zelensky immediately retorted "in 3 days, I heard it from Putin".
Trump is just openly parroting Putin's lines and good on Zelensky for calling him out on it. Putin was wrong, and Trump is wrong.
I grew up in the era of the US being Star Trek, Buck Rogers, etc. I faintly shuffled my feet in embarrassment during Ronnie's Iran-Contra testimony, Clintons "I did not..." on various things.
But todays performance from Trump and the other unpleasant guy. It was like watching two clumsy Batman henchmen trying to shake-down an honest punter at a states fair. Only uglier.
I'm surprised that anybody's remotely surprised to discover that Trump is a nasty, unpleasant, rude bully.
All I've learnt today is that Vance is at least as bad, and possibly even more dangerous, being marginally more intelligent.
I'm reminded of the "let's go back in time and kill Hitler" stories that end up with someone just as evil but a bit more clever and ruthless running the Reich.
Didn’t Stephen fry do one like that? Sterilised the Jews and used them to help win the war.
For 80 years the US has been the linchpin of the Western alliance. Now in a matter of weeks it has done an 180 degree turn and seems to want to ally itself with Russia rather than against it.
Were I an Israeli politician, I'd be saying to myself: if the US can do this to long-standing allies, if it can betray a country invaded by those wanting to obliterate its existence, my country can't be certain it won't do the same to us too, one day. And from that realisation policies will flow, policies many of us will not like at all.
The US can no longer be trusted.
Israel has never trusted the US. It’s why they build their own tanks & have their own nuclear deterrent.
They’re very happy to have US support if it’s available to them of course, but that support has not been there when they might have appreciated it in the past & might not be in the future - a reality they are very keenly aware of.
We need to do that. Israel is the only nation that doesn't need the US to set the software for its F35's.
Just what I was about to say. Britain needs to be more like Israel in the defence of our realm.
But not like Israel in offence against our neighbours.
Can you name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn't seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren't already at war with?
If someone is seeking to attack you then hitting them back isn't wrong, its self-defence. And hitting them back harder than they hit you, if you can, is perfectly reasonable too.
Maybe if Israel's neighbours stop trying to destroy Israel, then Israel wouldn't have to act anymore. Ever think about that?
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Yes, you’re right. And possibly Macron too? I can’t remember.
Vance seems to be the licensed pitbull. God only knows what’s driving him.
I've never read Hillbilly Elegy and I've never read Mein Kampf. But I suspect they may have something in common. "The country I love is a shit show. It must be someone else's fault." That sort of thing.
Hillbilly Elegy was applauded by good American liberals and Hollywood even made a film about it.
I think Vance is a good, old-fashioned American isolationist, whose aesthetic dislike of “Old Europe” has curdled into outward hatred and proto-fascism.
The man is clearly deeply confused and angry. He’s essentially run through a string of ideological positions in the last several years. The current one has been very lucrative, though. He’s got very rich on very right-wing VC money.
Americans used to fight AGAINST fascism...
The guy who wrote Elegy and the guy in the WH today seem only slightly related to be honest. There are flashes in the book of who we saw today - in the hollers they fight like cats and dogs and his uncle took a chainsaw to a man who disrepcted his wife and half them men are drunk and fight all the time etc. Scots-Irish permanent war type of thing. Yet he reads as if he has great empathy and understanding of what makes men and women tick.
Historians will imho be baffled by the Vance character.
I am.
He literally warned us about Trump being America's Hitler and now he is fucking Göring.
I would rather he lowers the temperature than escalates for dramatic effect. We need to buy time.
We’re still all assuming Trump and his cabal are rational actors. They’re not. They need to get hardball treatment, as Canada has shown.
It took us 2 decades to realise that about Putin. Are we really going to make the same mistake again?
Sure, but there no sense in escalating now. The damage is done. We need to buy time.
No no no. Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions. Otherwise it’s appeasement.
“Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions”
Okay. What measures are you suggesting?
Hearts are ruling over heads on here for many at the moment, understandably.
The answer 'what should Starmer do?' seems quite obvious, to me at least. Get our very best people to pull together a plan to (a) get our own military to sufficient strength and (b) build alliances that together will allow us to confidently assert the European view in this as soon as we possibly can.
Work from the date at which we can make that confident assertion - up to that point, do whatever is needed to deescalate. Beyond that point, utterly reject the moral and strategic idiocy from the white house and take no prisoners in our defence of western liberal values.
This is within our power. But it will need a lot of squeamishness in the meantime as we work with the reality that we remain, for the moment, America's poodle.
I agree. In politics you can only sensibly move when you are ready to, only call the vote when you are confident on numbers.
UK defence is so woven in to US defence now, well has been for a long while, both Chagos deals very much greased by that that fact. Which doesn’t give us all that much freedom, in a situation where the Whitehouse has gone loony.
Talking of which, where’s the arch Don Rimmer Leon?
Where’s Leon? Swallowed by his own sandpit?
I suspect he has been cultivating another personality on here for a while that will allow him to shift his views with no loss of face. I have my suspicions about @Winchy, with abject apologies to you Winchy as I'm probably wrong.
TBF to Leon I think he's just a series of performing characters on PB, though the individual allegedly behind him comes as a piece of work.
But that's the Spectator for you. AFAICS they are still at about 192* from last time round - the useful idiots for Mussolini stage - and are due to change horses soon wrt Trump.
Nah Leon, or rather the person who posts as Leon displays exactly who he is on PB as can be seen by what he posts elsewhere (e.g. X). Basically the same stuff.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
I think you’re naive. I think Starmer understands this. The FO understand this and looking two moves ahead can see the consequences of this, which are far more serious than things appear. Anything you can do to buy time is valuable.
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
“Realism” is what gave Putin so many easy wins in his first decade of power.
I await the first evidence that treating Trump like a serious and honest interlocutor rather than a malignant narcissist pays dividends.
In the meantime I’m happy to be called naive by the towering intellects of PB.
Oh my. I wish I lived in a world where tweets, dramatic gestures and no talking changed things, I really do. But with Putin in the White House we have a major problem that goes far beyond that. We need to box smart to get through this.
Why does boxing smart always mean going soft? Trump is a flat track bully. Canada knows the ropes: he threatened blanket tariffs, they said fine, we’ll stop oil exports, he caved.
It’s not just mean tweets is it. It’s proper threats. Trump needs to understand actions have consequences, otherwise he’ll just keep testing boundaries, just like his boss has done.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Zelensky should point out that they've destroyed 10k Russian tanks.
Russian tanks which were built to kill Americans and now never will.
They were only "built to kill Americans" to the extent that Europe expected Americans to be the ones to die defending it, which is exactly the problem.
Why are Saturday trolls banned for posting the same old shite you post?
Because their IP addresses match to those on certain lists.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Zelensky should point out that they've destroyed 10k Russian tanks.
Russian tanks which were built to kill Americans and now never will.
They were only "built to kill Americans" to the extent that Europe expected Americans to be the ones to die defending it, which is exactly the problem.
Though that isn't correct regarding the Cold War era.
Its the last two decades where Europe has been at fault regarding defence cuts.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Zelensky should point out that they've destroyed 10k Russian tanks.
Russian tanks which were built to kill Americans and now never will.
They were only "built to kill Americans" to the extent that Europe expected Americans to be the ones to die defending it, which is exactly the problem.
Why are Saturday trolls banned for posting the same old shite you post?
They make the mistake of going off on anti-vax tangents.
I always wondered how during the Cold War when Trump was first with Ivana he could come and go into Eastern Europe when Berliners were being shot for climbing fences to West Berlin. I was watching a YouTube channel that said he was first baled out by the Kremlin circa 1980.
It was perfectly possible to visit Eastern Europe during the cold war. Berliners trying to get from East Berlin to West is entirely different.
I'm surprised that anybody's remotely surprised to discover that Trump is a nasty, unpleasant, rude bully.
All I've learnt today is that Vance is at least as bad, and possibly even more dangerous, being marginally more intelligent.
I'm reminded of the "let's go back in time and kill Hitler" stories that end up with someone just as evil but a bit more clever and ruthless running the Reich.
Didn’t Stephen fry do one like that? Sterilised the Jews and used them to help win the war.
For 80 years the US has been the linchpin of the Western alliance. Now in a matter of weeks it has done an 180 degree turn and seems to want to ally itself with Russia rather than against it.
Were I an Israeli politician, I'd be saying to myself: if the US can do this to long-standing allies, if it can betray a country invaded by those wanting to obliterate its existence, my country can't be certain it won't do the same to us too, one day. And from that realisation policies will flow, policies many of us will not like at all.
The US can no longer be trusted.
Israel has never trusted the US. It’s why they build their own tanks & have their own nuclear deterrent.
They’re very happy to have US support if it’s available to them of course, but that support has not been there when they might have appreciated it in the past & might not be in the future - a reality they are very keenly aware of.
We need to do that. Israel is the only nation that doesn't need the US to set the software for its F35's.
Just what I was about to say. Britain needs to be more like Israel in the defence of our realm.
But not like Israel in offence against our neighbours.
Can you name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn't seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren't already at war with?
If someone is seeking to attack you then hitting them back isn't wrong, its self-defence. And hitting them back harder than they hit you, if you can, is perfectly reasonable too.
Maybe if Israel's neighbours stop trying to destroy Israel, then Israel wouldn't have to act anymore. Ever think about that?
Can I name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn’t seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren’t already at war with? Yes. Syria. This week.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Yes, you’re right. And possibly Macron too? I can’t remember.
Vance seems to be the licensed pitbull. God only knows what’s driving him.
We have covered this. He's a c**t.
100% But I think it’s useful to try to understand the underlying thought process.
Trump, Musk and Vance all have different “journeys”. So do Hegseth and the rest of them.
Also, Trump runs a chaotic court. Vance may be influential today, but tomorrow it could be Barron Trump, or Donald’s chiropodist, or the ghost of fucking Jacob Marley.
It doesn't seem very chaotic at present.
For good or ill, Vance, Musk and Trump seem very much aligned.
I'm surprised that anybody's remotely surprised to discover that Trump is a nasty, unpleasant, rude bully.
All I've learnt today is that Vance is at least as bad, and possibly even more dangerous, being marginally more intelligent.
I'm reminded of the "let's go back in time and kill Hitler" stories that end up with someone just as evil but a bit more clever and ruthless running the Reich.
Didn’t Stephen fry do one like that? Sterilised the Jews and used them to help win the war.
For 80 years the US has been the linchpin of the Western alliance. Now in a matter of weeks it has done an 180 degree turn and seems to want to ally itself with Russia rather than against it.
Were I an Israeli politician, I'd be saying to myself: if the US can do this to long-standing allies, if it can betray a country invaded by those wanting to obliterate its existence, my country can't be certain it won't do the same to us too, one day. And from that realisation policies will flow, policies many of us will not like at all.
The US can no longer be trusted.
Israel has never trusted the US. It’s why they build their own tanks & have their own nuclear deterrent.
They’re very happy to have US support if it’s available to them of course, but that support has not been there when they might have appreciated it in the past & might not be in the future - a reality they are very keenly aware of.
We need to do that. Israel is the only nation that doesn't need the US to set the software for its F35's.
Just what I was about to say. Britain needs to be more like Israel in the defence of our realm.
But not like Israel in offence against our neighbours.
Can you name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn't seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren't already at war with?
If someone is seeking to attack you then hitting them back isn't wrong, its self-defence. And hitting them back harder than they hit you, if you can, is perfectly reasonable too.
Maybe if Israel's neighbours stop trying to destroy Israel, then Israel wouldn't have to act anymore. Ever think about that?
Can I name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn’t seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren’t already at war with? Yes. Syria. This week.
Shows your ignorance, Syria has been at war with Israel since 1948. Syria has never not been at war with Israel.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
I think you’re naive. I think Starmer understands this. The FO understand this and looking two moves ahead can see the consequences of this, which are far more serious than things appear. Anything you can do to buy time is valuable.
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
“Realism” is what gave Putin so many easy wins in his first decade of power.
I await the first evidence that treating Trump like a serious and honest interlocutor rather than a malignant narcissist pays dividends.
In the meantime I’m happy to be called naive by the towering intellects of PB.
I think it's a different sort of realism that we need. No question over what Trump is - a dangerous toddler, but one with a big stick. So treat him like a malignant narcissist - distract him with baubles, all the while preparing to pull the rug from under him. Don't biff him on the head with a blow up hammer, else he'll throw his toys out of the pram.
Again, it’s appeasement appeasement appeasement. Bullies like Trump don’t respect that, it emboldens them. And behind Trump lies plenty of others, starting with Vance.
Starmer doesn’t need to insult him. But at least make him have a soupçon of doubt over whether he’ll get the King’s invitation, and the golf course planning permission. And try to amass some kompromat. He’s been a celebrity for decades, there must be something.
Reform's support won't be affected, because most of their supporters care almost entirely about domestic topics (with immigration being included in that definition) and aren't really interested in foreign affairs.
Maybe, but it's going to further encourage tactical voting against them and help bring DK's in the left wing block back to Labour in the long-run. Most of the electorate doesn't want what's going on in DC right now to be happening in Westminster.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
I think you’re naive. I think Starmer understands this. The FO understand this and looking two moves ahead can see the consequences of this, which are far more serious than things appear. Anything you can do to buy time is valuable.
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
“Realism” is what gave Putin so many easy wins in his first decade of power.
I await the first evidence that treating Trump like a serious and honest interlocutor rather than a malignant narcissist pays dividends.
In the meantime I’m happy to be called naive by the towering intellects of PB.
Oh my. I wish I lived in a world where tweets, dramatic gestures and no talking changed things, I really do. But with Putin in the White House we have a major problem that goes far beyond that. We need to box smart to get through this.
Why does boxing smart always mean going soft? Trump is a flat track bully. Canada knows the ropes: he threatened blanket tariffs, they said fine, we’ll stop oil exports, he caved.
It’s not just mean tweets is it. It’s proper threats. Trump needs to understand actions have consequences, otherwise he’ll just keep testing boundaries, just like his boss has done.
It means choosing when and how to fight. It means getting strong. It means playing it cool. It means speaking softly and carrying a big stick.
Historians will imho be baffled by the Vance character.
I am.
He literally warned us about Trump being America's Hitler and now he is fucking Göring.
It's mad isn't it?
My gut feeling is that Vance isn't really a Trump admirer, but that his ambition is so great he sees supporting Trump as an opportunity for power for himself. The scary thing is that Vance might be more extreme than Trump. Trump is mainly in the political game for legal protection, greed, and adulation, he believes in very little. Vance on the other hand is an ideologue and might countenance doing some very extreme things with a unitary executive Presidency and tame Supreme Court.
I'm surprised that anybody's remotely surprised to discover that Trump is a nasty, unpleasant, rude bully.
All I've learnt today is that Vance is at least as bad, and possibly even more dangerous, being marginally more intelligent.
I'm reminded of the "let's go back in time and kill Hitler" stories that end up with someone just as evil but a bit more clever and ruthless running the Reich.
Didn’t Stephen fry do one like that? Sterilised the Jews and used them to help win the war.
For 80 years the US has been the linchpin of the Western alliance. Now in a matter of weeks it has done an 180 degree turn and seems to want to ally itself with Russia rather than against it.
Were I an Israeli politician, I'd be saying to myself: if the US can do this to long-standing allies, if it can betray a country invaded by those wanting to obliterate its existence, my country can't be certain it won't do the same to us too, one day. And from that realisation policies will flow, policies many of us will not like at all.
The US can no longer be trusted.
Israel has never trusted the US. It’s why they build their own tanks & have their own nuclear deterrent.
They’re very happy to have US support if it’s available to them of course, but that support has not been there when they might have appreciated it in the past & might not be in the future - a reality they are very keenly aware of.
We need to do that. Israel is the only nation that doesn't need the US to set the software for its F35's.
Just what I was about to say. Britain needs to be more like Israel in the defence of our realm.
But not like Israel in offence against our neighbours.
Can you name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn't seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren't already at war with?
If someone is seeking to attack you then hitting them back isn't wrong, its self-defence. And hitting them back harder than they hit you, if you can, is perfectly reasonable too.
Maybe if Israel's neighbours stop trying to destroy Israel, then Israel wouldn't have to act anymore. Ever think about that?
Can I name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn’t seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren’t already at war with? Yes. Syria. This week.
Shows your ignorance, Syria has been at war with Israel since 1948. Syria has never not been at war with Israel.
There hasn’t been active fighting all that time. The new Syrian government has made no moves against Israel. They’ve sought to reassure Israel, pushing out Hezbollah, saying they won’t let Iranians use Syrian territory to attack Israel. Yet Israel launched multiple air strikes against Syria and moved their troops into the UN buffer zone. This week, Israel has launched a new round of air strikes against Syria, without provocation. Israel has said they’re to protect the Druze minority, but the Druze minority are supporting the new Syrian government and have joined their new assembly.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
I think you’re naive. I think Starmer understands this. The FO understand this and looking two moves ahead can see the consequences of this, which are far more serious than things appear. Anything you can do to buy time is valuable.
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
“Realism” is what gave Putin so many easy wins in his first decade of power.
I await the first evidence that treating Trump like a serious and honest interlocutor rather than a malignant narcissist pays dividends.
In the meantime I’m happy to be called naive by the towering intellects of PB.
I think it's a different sort of realism that we need. No question over what Trump is - a dangerous toddler, but one with a big stick. So treat him like a malignant narcissist - distract him with baubles, all the while preparing to pull the rug from under him. Don't biff him on the head with a blow up hammer, else he'll throw his toys out of the pram.
Again, it’s appeasement appeasement appeasement. Bullies like Trump don’t respect that, it emboldens them. And behind Trump lies plenty of others, starting with Vance.
Starmer doesn’t need to insult him. But at least make him have a soupçon of doubt over whether he’ll get the King’s invitation, and the golf course planning permission. And try to amass some kompromat. He’s been a celebrity for decades, there must be something.
And how do you know that isn't exactly what happened yesterday? He seemed quite unnecessarily amenable. He didn't have to say what a lovely accent, fit wife, great guy, let him slap down the VP. Almost as if there is something known.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
I think you’re naive. I think Starmer understands this. The FO understand this and looking two moves ahead can see the consequences of this, which are far more serious than things appear. Anything you can do to buy time is valuable.
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
“Realism” is what gave Putin so many easy wins in his first decade of power.
I await the first evidence that treating Trump like a serious and honest interlocutor rather than a malignant narcissist pays dividends.
In the meantime I’m happy to be called naive by the towering intellects of PB.
Oh my. I wish I lived in a world where tweets, dramatic gestures and no talking changed things, I really do. But with Putin in the White House we have a major problem that goes far beyond that. We need to box smart to get through this.
Why does boxing smart always mean going soft? Trump is a flat track bully. Canada knows the ropes: he threatened blanket tariffs, they said fine, we’ll stop oil exports, he caved.
It’s not just mean tweets is it. It’s proper threats. Trump needs to understand actions have consequences, otherwise he’ll just keep testing boundaries, just like his boss has done.
It means choosing when and how to fight. It means getting strong. It means playing it cool. It means speaking softly and carrying a big stick.
If you’re right and Starmer has been playing 4D chess all this time, I’ll be delighted to salute your insight and say I was wrong.
It does look like a deliberate attempt by Vance to sabotage the meeting. Trump I'm less sure whether he was in on the act. He might have wanted a deal but Vance was out to prevent it and knew how Trump would react.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Zelensky should point out that they've destroyed 10k Russian tanks.
Russian tanks which were built to kill Americans and now never will.
They were only "built to kill Americans" to the extent that Europe expected Americans to be the ones to die defending it, which is exactly the problem.
Why are Saturday trolls banned for posting the same old shite you post?
Because their IP addresses match to those on certain lists.
I didn't expect anyone to earnestly answer my question. It was meant to be rhetorical.
Starmer doesn't do knee-jerk reactions. He's calm and measured, and thinks stuff through before he speaks or, even worse, tweets. He's diplomatic. These are virtues, not sins.
I'm surprised that anybody's remotely surprised to discover that Trump is a nasty, unpleasant, rude bully.
All I've learnt today is that Vance is at least as bad, and possibly even more dangerous, being marginally more intelligent.
I'm reminded of the "let's go back in time and kill Hitler" stories that end up with someone just as evil but a bit more clever and ruthless running the Reich.
Didn’t Stephen fry do one like that? Sterilised the Jews and used them to help win the war.
For 80 years the US has been the linchpin of the Western alliance. Now in a matter of weeks it has done an 180 degree turn and seems to want to ally itself with Russia rather than against it.
Were I an Israeli politician, I'd be saying to myself: if the US can do this to long-standing allies, if it can betray a country invaded by those wanting to obliterate its existence, my country can't be certain it won't do the same to us too, one day. And from that realisation policies will flow, policies many of us will not like at all.
The US can no longer be trusted.
Israel has never trusted the US. It’s why they build their own tanks & have their own nuclear deterrent.
They’re very happy to have US support if it’s available to them of course, but that support has not been there when they might have appreciated it in the past & might not be in the future - a reality they are very keenly aware of.
We need to do that. Israel is the only nation that doesn't need the US to set the software for its F35's.
Just what I was about to say. Britain needs to be more like Israel in the defence of our realm.
But not like Israel in offence against our neighbours.
Can you name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn't seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren't already at war with?
If someone is seeking to attack you then hitting them back isn't wrong, its self-defence. And hitting them back harder than they hit you, if you can, is perfectly reasonable too.
Maybe if Israel's neighbours stop trying to destroy Israel, then Israel wouldn't have to act anymore. Ever think about that?
Can I name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn’t seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren’t already at war with? Yes. Syria. This week.
Shows your ignorance, Syria has been at war with Israel since 1948. Syria has never not been at war with Israel.
There hasn’t been active fighting all that time. The new Syrian government has made no moves against Israel. They’ve sought to reassure Israel, pushing out Hezbollah, saying they won’t let Iranians use Syrian territory to attack Israel. Yet Israel launched multiple air strikes against Syria and moved their troops into the UN buffer zone. This week, Israel has launched a new round of air strikes against Syria, without provocation. Israel has said they’re to protect the Druze minority, but the Druze minority are supporting the new Syrian government and have joined their new assembly.
They are at war. Wars are fought between states and not just governments and Israel is well within her rights to prosecute a perpetual war it has been stuck in for decades however she sees best for her self-defence.
War is a provocation. Your trying to rewrite history by lying and saying that Israel and Syria are not at war is just flagrant dishonesty. If the new government chooses to reach a peace agreement, I'd be delighted, but until then they are in a state of war.
In the olden days you could disagree with members of Republican governments, but they were generally professional, educated, and experienced people. Bolton is no dummy whatever anyone thinks of his views.
Now the US has an adminstration filled with yes-men, TV hosts, podcasters, people who have shilled for Trump on social media, Trump's personal lawyers, and other dregs. It's an absurd way to run a country. We are only a few weeks in and the results are already terrible.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Zelensky should point out that they've destroyed 10k Russian tanks.
Russian tanks which were built to kill Americans and now never will.
They were only "built to kill Americans" to the extent that Europe expected Americans to be the ones to die defending it, which is exactly the problem.
Why are Saturday trolls banned for posting the same old shite you post?
Because their IP addresses match to those on certain lists.
I didn't expect anyone to earnestly answer my question. It was meant to be rhetorical.
‘‘Twas truth though. Like it or not said poster is real, and not working in Africa on behalf of Putin.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Zelensky should point out that they've destroyed 10k Russian tanks.
Russian tanks which were built to kill Americans and now never will.
They were only "built to kill Americans" to the extent that Europe expected Americans to be the ones to die defending it, which is exactly the problem.
Why are Saturday trolls banned for posting the same old shite you post?
Because their IP addresses match to those on certain lists.
I didn't expect anyone to earnestly answer my question. It was meant to be rhetorical.
‘‘Twas truth though. Like it or not said poster is real, and not working in Africa on behalf of Putin.
Is working in Milton Keynes for Putin any different?
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
I think you’re naive. I think Starmer understands this. The FO understand this and looking two moves ahead can see the consequences of this, which are far more serious than things appear. Anything you can do to buy time is valuable.
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
“Realism” is what gave Putin so many easy wins in his first decade of power.
I await the first evidence that treating Trump like a serious and honest interlocutor rather than a malignant narcissist pays dividends.
In the meantime I’m happy to be called naive by the towering intellects of PB.
Oh my. I wish I lived in a world where tweets, dramatic gestures and no talking changed things, I really do. But with Putin in the White House we have a major problem that goes far beyond that. We need to box smart to get through this.
Why does boxing smart always mean going soft? Trump is a flat track bully. Canada knows the ropes: he threatened blanket tariffs, they said fine, we’ll stop oil exports, he caved.
It’s not just mean tweets is it. It’s proper threats. Trump needs to understand actions have consequences, otherwise he’ll just keep testing boundaries, just like his boss has done.
It means choosing when and how to fight. It means getting strong. It means playing it cool. It means speaking softly and carrying a big stick.
If you’re right and Starmer has been playing 4D chess all this time, I’ll be delighted to salute your insight and say I was wrong.
I don’t think Starmer is playing 4D chess, but he’s clearly taking advice from smart people and had enough diplomatic nouse in the heat of the moment to disarm Vance.
How many years before the US media ask "Are we the baddies?" I know the country is hugely divided, but there seems to be a consensus on Foreign Policy. They'll rip the administration to pieces about Musk and firings, etc. But the idea that the President is a full on agent of Moscow seems too giant to contemplate.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
I think you’re naive. I think Starmer understands this. The FO understand this and looking two moves ahead can see the consequences of this, which are far more serious than things appear. Anything you can do to buy time is valuable.
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
“Realism” is what gave Putin so many easy wins in his first decade of power.
I await the first evidence that treating Trump like a serious and honest interlocutor rather than a malignant narcissist pays dividends.
In the meantime I’m happy to be called naive by the towering intellects of PB.
Oh my. I wish I lived in a world where tweets, dramatic gestures and no talking changed things, I really do. But with Putin in the White House we have a major problem that goes far beyond that. We need to box smart to get through this.
Why does boxing smart always mean going soft? Trump is a flat track bully. Canada knows the ropes: he threatened blanket tariffs, they said fine, we’ll stop oil exports, he caved.
It’s not just mean tweets is it. It’s proper threats. Trump needs to understand actions have consequences, otherwise he’ll just keep testing boundaries, just like his boss has done.
It means choosing when and how to fight. It means getting strong. It means playing it cool. It means speaking softly and carrying a big stick.
If you’re right and Starmer has been playing 4D chess all this time, I’ll be delighted to salute your insight and say I was wrong.
I don't think Starmer has been playing 4D chess. Perhaps he thought he was yesterday, but that has gone today. Platitudes claiming we are standing with Ukraine aren't helping at all. We need something more concrete than that.
Sometime in the next few days Starmer needs to rescind the State Visit invite and apologise for his error. After that Farage and Johnson can apologise too for years of Trump fawning.
I'm surprised that anybody's remotely surprised to discover that Trump is a nasty, unpleasant, rude bully.
All I've learnt today is that Vance is at least as bad, and possibly even more dangerous, being marginally more intelligent.
I'm reminded of the "let's go back in time and kill Hitler" stories that end up with someone just as evil but a bit more clever and ruthless running the Reich.
Didn’t Stephen fry do one like that? Sterilised the Jews and used them to help win the war.
For 80 years the US has been the linchpin of the Western alliance. Now in a matter of weeks it has done an 180 degree turn and seems to want to ally itself with Russia rather than against it.
Were I an Israeli politician, I'd be saying to myself: if the US can do this to long-standing allies, if it can betray a country invaded by those wanting to obliterate its existence, my country can't be certain it won't do the same to us too, one day. And from that realisation policies will flow, policies many of us will not like at all.
The US can no longer be trusted.
Israel has never trusted the US. It’s why they build their own tanks & have their own nuclear deterrent.
They’re very happy to have US support if it’s available to them of course, but that support has not been there when they might have appreciated it in the past & might not be in the future - a reality they are very keenly aware of.
We need to do that. Israel is the only nation that doesn't need the US to set the software for its F35's.
Just what I was about to say. Britain needs to be more like Israel in the defence of our realm.
But not like Israel in offence against our neighbours.
Can you name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn't seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren't already at war with?
If someone is seeking to attack you then hitting them back isn't wrong, its self-defence. And hitting them back harder than they hit you, if you can, is perfectly reasonable too.
Maybe if Israel's neighbours stop trying to destroy Israel, then Israel wouldn't have to act anymore. Ever think about that?
Can I name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn’t seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren’t already at war with? Yes. Syria. This week.
Shows your ignorance, Syria has been at war with Israel since 1948. Syria has never not been at war with Israel.
There hasn’t been active fighting all that time. The new Syrian government has made no moves against Israel. They’ve sought to reassure Israel, pushing out Hezbollah, saying they won’t let Iranians use Syrian territory to attack Israel. Yet Israel launched multiple air strikes against Syria and moved their troops into the UN buffer zone. This week, Israel has launched a new round of air strikes against Syria, without provocation. Israel has said they’re to protect the Druze minority, but the Druze minority are supporting the new Syrian government and have joined their new assembly.
They are at war. Wars are fought between states and not just governments and Israel is well within her rights to prosecute a perpetual war it has been stuck in for decades however she sees best for her self-defence.
War is a provocation. Your trying to rewrite history by lying and saying that Israel and Syria are not at war is just flagrant dishonesty. If the new government chooses to reach a peace agreement, I'd be delighted, but until then they are in a state of war.
There was an agreed ceasefire, policed by the UN… until Israel invaded into the UN-administered zone. There is a new Syrian government that has made positive overtures to Israel. Bibi has ignored that and appears to be enacting a Greater Israel plan, annexing ever larger chunks of southern Syria, while basking in Trump’s support for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
I don't think Starmer has been playing 4D chess. Perhaps he thought he was yesterday, but that has gone today. Platitudes claiming we are standing with Ukraine aren't helping at all. We need something more concrete than that.
Sometime in the next few days Starmer needs to rescind the State Visit invite and apologise for his error. After that Farage and Johnson can apologise too for years of Trump fawning.
I tell you one thing he can bin tonight, his defence spending plans. We will need a lot more, and a lot sooner.
On a STEM dominated board I realise this will probably not be seen well. But how much Sherpaing went into choice of outfits? SKS and Trump wore a mirror image. Dark suit, white shirt, maroonish tie. Not red. Too aggressive, and possibly, signalling support for each others political position? I'm glad we have the FO.
I'm surprised that anybody's remotely surprised to discover that Trump is a nasty, unpleasant, rude bully.
All I've learnt today is that Vance is at least as bad, and possibly even more dangerous, being marginally more intelligent.
I'm reminded of the "let's go back in time and kill Hitler" stories that end up with someone just as evil but a bit more clever and ruthless running the Reich.
Didn’t Stephen fry do one like that? Sterilised the Jews and used them to help win the war.
For 80 years the US has been the linchpin of the Western alliance. Now in a matter of weeks it has done an 180 degree turn and seems to want to ally itself with Russia rather than against it.
Were I an Israeli politician, I'd be saying to myself: if the US can do this to long-standing allies, if it can betray a country invaded by those wanting to obliterate its existence, my country can't be certain it won't do the same to us too, one day. And from that realisation policies will flow, policies many of us will not like at all.
The US can no longer be trusted.
Israel has never trusted the US. It’s why they build their own tanks & have their own nuclear deterrent.
They’re very happy to have US support if it’s available to them of course, but that support has not been there when they might have appreciated it in the past & might not be in the future - a reality they are very keenly aware of.
We need to do that. Israel is the only nation that doesn't need the US to set the software for its F35's.
Just what I was about to say. Britain needs to be more like Israel in the defence of our realm.
But not like Israel in offence against our neighbours.
Can you name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn't seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren't already at war with?
If someone is seeking to attack you then hitting them back isn't wrong, its self-defence. And hitting them back harder than they hit you, if you can, is perfectly reasonable too.
Maybe if Israel's neighbours stop trying to destroy Israel, then Israel wouldn't have to act anymore. Ever think about that?
Can I name one neighbour Israel has ever attacked that wasn’t seeking to destroy Israel or that they weren’t already at war with? Yes. Syria. This week.
Shows your ignorance, Syria has been at war with Israel since 1948. Syria has never not been at war with Israel.
There hasn’t been active fighting all that time. The new Syrian government has made no moves against Israel. They’ve sought to reassure Israel, pushing out Hezbollah, saying they won’t let Iranians use Syrian territory to attack Israel. Yet Israel launched multiple air strikes against Syria and moved their troops into the UN buffer zone. This week, Israel has launched a new round of air strikes against Syria, without provocation. Israel has said they’re to protect the Druze minority, but the Druze minority are supporting the new Syrian government and have joined their new assembly.
They are at war. Wars are fought between states and not just governments and Israel is well within her rights to prosecute a perpetual war it has been stuck in for decades however she sees best for her self-defence.
War is a provocation. Your trying to rewrite history by lying and saying that Israel and Syria are not at war is just flagrant dishonesty. If the new government chooses to reach a peace agreement, I'd be delighted, but until then they are in a state of war.
There was an agreed ceasefire, policed by the UN… until Israel invaded into the UN-administered zone. There is a new Syrian government that has made positive overtures to Israel. Bibi has ignored that and appears to be enacting a Greater Israel plan, annexing ever larger chunks of southern Syria, while basking in Trump’s support for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
There is an explicit, ongoing state of war and while the old dictatorial regime passing is good news, the new regime comes with its own unsavoury background, links to terrorist groups (its leaders almost all being proscribed terrorists by our country let alone Israel only a few months ago).
The idea that an ongoing state of war can be brushed under the carpet as no big deal is just obscene. A ceasefire is not a peace agreement and when the government that had agreed the ceasefire has collapsed then all that is left is the status of war.
Israel is as entitled to get chunks of Syria in its self-defence as Ukraine is to get chunks of Kursk.
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 3h Trump & Vance got to berate, patronise & mock Zelenskyy publicly for their base, & Zelenskyy got to look brave & dignified for his domestic & European audience. And neither party had to sign the worthless minerals deal. Win-win-win.
I don't think Starmer has been playing 4D chess. Perhaps he thought he was yesterday, but that has gone today. Platitudes claiming we are standing with Ukraine aren't helping at all. We need something more concrete than that.
Sometime in the next few days Starmer needs to rescind the State Visit invite and apologise for his error. After that Farage and Johnson can apologise too for years of Trump fawning.
I tell you one thing he can bin tonight, his defence spending plans. We will need a lot more, and a lot sooner.
Yep. And taxes are going to have to pay for them. Not in 5 years or 10 years time but in 5 or 10 weeks time.
Andrew Neil @afneil · 2h After Trump’s disgraceful bullying of Zelensky today, aided and abetted by sidekick Vance, why would we want Trump to pay a state visit to the UK? Can the invitation letter be withdrawn?
I don't think Starmer has been playing 4D chess. Perhaps he thought he was yesterday, but that has gone today. Platitudes claiming we are standing with Ukraine aren't helping at all. We need something more concrete than that.
Sometime in the next few days Starmer needs to rescind the State Visit invite and apologise for his error. After that Farage and Johnson can apologise too for years of Trump fawning.
I tell you one thing he can bin tonight, his defence spending plans. We will need a lot more, and a lot sooner.
Yep. And taxes are going to have to pay for them. Not in 5 years or 10 years time but in 5 or 10 weeks time.
Taxes now and in the future via borrowing. Like Covid, the market will bear spending to manage existential risk.
On a STEM dominated board I realise this will probably not be seen well. But how much Sherpaing went into choice of outfits? SKS and Trump wore a mirror image. Dark suit, white shirt, maroonish tie. Not red. Too aggressive, and possibly, signalling support for each others political position? I'm glad we have the FO.
I mean jeez, my brain can't take these people anymore, Elon Muskovite is literally on X slagging Zelensky off for not dressing for the White House, a whole fucking day since Elon danced around the US Cabinet table in a black tech support t-shirt and shit black jeans and a MAGA fucking cap.
Honestly the "projection" thing in therapy needs to have degrees and a whole new SI unit.
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 3h Trump & Vance got to berate, patronise & mock Zelenskyy publicly for their base, & Zelenskyy got to look brave & dignified for his domestic & European audience. And neither party had to sign the worthless minerals deal. Win-win-win.
The latest MAGA conspiracy is the whole thing was set up by the Europeans to make Zelensky look good.
(we can only wish that our leaders were that Machiavellian!)
H.R. McMaster @LTGHRMcMaster · 4h It is impossible to understand why President Trump and Vice President Vance seem determined to put more pressure on President Zelensky while they seem to be coddling Putin - the person who inflicted this terrible war in Ukraine.
H.R. McMaster @LTGHRMcMaster · 4h It is impossible to understand why President Trump and Vice President Vance seem determined to put more pressure on President Zelensky while they seem to be coddling Putin - the person who inflicted this terrible war in Ukraine.
I thought it was pretty clear . Trump likes Putin and likes the way he governs and only seems to have any respect for vile autocrats . As for Bozos comments he really is fxcking clueless to suggest Zelenskyy and Trump are on the same side . That ship sailed a long time ago if it even left the port.
If people haven’t already woken up to the new reality then they’re in denial , this is especially pertinent to those who were UK politicians supporting Trump in November and now are having a hard time accepting that they now look like fxcking imbeciles .
Ironic that the Trump - Zelensky meeting was going fine until Zelensky bit back at Vance. The same Vance that's been lecturing the west on the merits of "freedom of speech"
As is usually the case, when it comes to "free speech absolutists" they can give it but they can't take it...
Literally blowing my mind. The fucking head of intelligence in the US went on social fucking media and said the Ukr president is trying to organize a nuclear war.
73 million americans voted for this absolute shit.
for your unwavering leadership in standing up for the interests of the American people, and peace. What you said is absolutely true: Zelensky has been trying to drag the United States into a nuclear war with Russia/WW3 for years now, and no one has called him on it. Thank you, Vice President @JDVance for speaking out so forcefully and clearly, about the necessity of diplomacy.
If anyone on this PB board has any scintillate of doubt that Trump is a full blown John Le Carre Putin agent can they please send a header to @TSE so we can shoot you down.
Literally blowing my mind. The fucking head of intelligence in the US went on social fucking media and said the Ukr president is trying to organize a nuclear war.
73 million americans voted for this absolute shit.
for your unwavering leadership in standing up for the interests of the American people, and peace. What you said is absolutely true: Zelensky has been trying to drag the United States into a nuclear war with Russia/WW3 for years now, and no one has called him on it. Thank you, Vice President @JDVance for speaking out so forcefully and clearly, about the necessity of diplomacy.
Literally blowing my mind. The fucking head of intelligence in the US went on social fucking media and said the Ukr president is trying to organize a nuclear war.
73 million americans voted for this absolute shit.
for your unwavering leadership in standing up for the interests of the American people, and peace. What you said is absolutely true: Zelensky has been trying to drag the United States into a nuclear war with Russia/WW3 for years now, and no one has called him on it. Thank you, Vice President @JDVance for speaking out so forcefully and clearly, about the necessity of diplomacy.
If anyone on this PB board has any scintillate of doubt that Trump is a full blown John Le Carre Putin agent can they please send a header to @TSE so we can shoot you down.
I am typing up the header right now. I don’t believe Trump is a Putin agent. I think the Thalmooshrians from Planet Daarg 7 are behind it. They want to wipe out the human race to get their hands on our precious earth minerals. Apparently we haven’t paid them yet for our use of “Black Slabs”. 😶
I don't care about the Chagos. I don't care about a trade deal. And frankly, after that spectacle, I don't care about "The Special Relationship" anymore. The invite from the King should be rescinded immediately. It's time to take a proper stand against Trump and his thugs."
Comments
Russian tanks which were built to kill Americans and now never will.
https://www.youtube.com/live/hzkCsIv365c?si=9h31XqVYJcPeI0RS
From around 1:30-12:30 shows the
breakdown, but the full thing starts at 14:00
Trump is just openly parroting Putin's lines and good on Zelensky for calling him out on it. Putin was wrong, and Trump is wrong.
I might try to watch tomorrow.
I fear BartyBobbins is right and the key moment is when Trump started parroting Russian attack lines.
I don't want to risk a silly argument.
I think Vance is a good, old-fashioned American isolationist, whose aesthetic dislike of “Old Europe” has curdled into outward hatred and proto-fascism.
The man is clearly deeply confused and angry. He’s essentially run through a string of ideological positions in the last several years. The current one has been very lucrative, though. He’s got very rich on very right-wing VC money.
I await the first evidence that treating Trump like a serious and honest interlocutor rather than a malignant narcissist pays dividends.
In the meantime I’m happy to be called naive by the towering intellects of PB.
But that's the Spectator for you. AFAICS they are still at about 192* from last time round - the useful idiots for Mussolini stage - and are due to change horses soon wrt Trump.
No question over what Trump is - a dangerous toddler, but one with a big stick.
So treat him like a malignant narcissist - distract him with baubles, all the while preparing to pull the rug from under him.
Don't biff him on the head with a blow up hammer, else he'll throw his toys out of the pram.
Angry about his difficult upbringing.
Angry about how he's been belittled because of his background by those born into privilege.
And angry now about how he has to crawl to Trump while being usurped by Musk.
He's going to lash out at anyone in retaliation.
But todays performance from Trump and the other unpleasant guy. It was like watching two clumsy Batman henchmen trying to shake-down an honest punter at a states fair. Only uglier.
If someone is seeking to attack you then hitting them back isn't wrong, its self-defence. And hitting them back harder than they hit you, if you can, is perfectly reasonable too.
Maybe if Israel's neighbours stop trying to destroy Israel, then Israel wouldn't have to act anymore. Ever think about that?
https://youtu.be/C91sYB3NfiA?t=497
Then into ... Russia Russia Russia .
Why the Beeb persists in using them at the end of each programme credits I have no idea!
Historians will imho be baffled by the Vance character.
I am.
He literally warned us about Trump being America's Hitler and now he is fucking Göring.
It’s not just mean tweets is it. It’s proper threats. Trump needs to understand actions have consequences, otherwise he’ll just keep testing boundaries, just like his boss has done.
Its the last two decades where Europe has been at fault regarding defence cuts.
For good or ill, Vance, Musk and Trump seem very much aligned.
Starmer doesn’t need to insult him. But at least make him have a soupçon of doubt over whether he’ll get the King’s invitation, and the golf course planning permission. And try to amass some kompromat. He’s been a celebrity for decades, there must be something.
My gut feeling is that Vance isn't really a Trump admirer, but that his ambition is so great he sees supporting Trump as an opportunity for power for himself. The scary thing is that Vance might be more extreme than Trump. Trump is mainly in the political game for legal protection, greed, and adulation, he believes in very little. Vance on the other hand is an ideologue and might countenance doing some very extreme things with a unitary executive Presidency and tame Supreme Court.
He seemed quite unnecessarily amenable. He didn't have to say what a lovely accent, fit wife, great guy, let him slap down the VP.
Almost as if there is something known.
John Bolton is sounding sane.
https://x.com/bareleft/status/1895553845159477453?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
These are virtues, not sins.
War is a provocation. Your trying to rewrite history by lying and saying that Israel and Syria are not at war is just flagrant dishonesty. If the new government chooses to reach a peace agreement, I'd be delighted, but until then they are in a state of war.
Now the US has an adminstration filled with yes-men, TV hosts, podcasters, people who have shilled for Trump on social media, Trump's personal lawyers, and other dregs. It's an absurd way to run a country. We are only a few weeks in and the results are already terrible.
The prospect of my children dying in Eastern European trenches because of that obscene orange fucker fills me with dread.
I know the country is hugely divided, but there seems to be a consensus on Foreign Policy. They'll rip the administration to pieces about Musk and firings, etc.
But the idea that the President is a full on agent of Moscow seems too giant to contemplate.
..
That was meant as a humorous quip, but now I've depressed myself.
Iain Martin
@iainmartin1
·
1h
Reform very quiet this evening…
Sometime in the next few days Starmer needs to rescind the State Visit invite and apologise for his error. After that Farage and Johnson can apologise too for years of Trump fawning.
But how much Sherpaing went into choice of outfits?
SKS and Trump wore a mirror image. Dark suit, white shirt, maroonish tie. Not red. Too aggressive, and possibly, signalling support for each others political position?
I'm glad we have the FO.
The idea that an ongoing state of war can be brushed under the carpet as no big deal is just obscene. A ceasefire is not a peace agreement and when the government that had agreed the ceasefire has collapsed then all that is left is the status of war.
Israel is as entitled to get chunks of Syria in its self-defence as Ukraine is to get chunks of Kursk.
Andrew Lilico
@andrew_lilico
·
3h
Trump & Vance got to berate, patronise & mock Zelenskyy publicly for their base, & Zelenskyy got to look brave & dignified for his domestic & European audience. And neither party had to sign the worthless minerals deal. Win-win-win.
Andrew Neil
@afneil
·
2h
After Trump’s disgraceful bullying of Zelensky today, aided and abetted by sidekick Vance, why would we want Trump to pay a state visit to the UK? Can the invitation letter be withdrawn?
Honestly the "projection" thing in therapy needs to have degrees and a whole new SI unit.
Three Elons of Projection this morning.
I really hope Europe can step up at the weekend and send a clear message to Trump and his puppet handler Putin.
(we can only wish that our leaders were that Machiavellian!)
@LTGHRMcMaster
·
4h
It is impossible to understand why President Trump and Vice President Vance seem determined to put more pressure on President Zelensky while they seem to be coddling Putin - the person who inflicted this terrible war in Ukraine.
If people haven’t already woken up to the new reality then they’re in denial , this is especially pertinent to those who were UK politicians supporting Trump in November and now are having a hard time accepting that they now look like fxcking imbeciles .
As is usually the case, when it comes to "free speech absolutists" they can give it but they can't take it...
73 million americans voted for this absolute shit.
Tulsi Gabbard 🌺
@TulsiGabbard Thank you @realDonaldTrump
for your unwavering leadership in standing up for the interests of the American people, and peace. What you said is absolutely true: Zelensky has been trying to drag the United States into a nuclear war with Russia/WW3 for years now, and no one has called him on it. Thank you, Vice President @JDVance
for speaking out so forcefully and clearly, about the necessity of diplomacy.
I think the Thalmooshrians from Planet Daarg 7 are behind it. They want to wipe out the human race to get their hands on our precious earth minerals. Apparently we haven’t paid them yet for our use of “Black Slabs”. 😶
SOME OF US noted that the whole Starmer-charmer crapola was obnoxious
Hold on