Some optimism for the Tories in the latest YouGov poll – politicalbetting.com

System · January 22

Some optimism for the Tories in the latest YouGov poll – politicalbetting.com

One of the main reasons the Conservatives were walloped senseless at last year’s election was down to their handling of the economy so they must be delighted that they now have a small lead over Labour on managing the economy.

Read the full story here

Sandpit · January 22

First like Trump!

bondegezou · January 22

FPT…

FrancisUrquhart said:

bondegezou said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Taz said:
I see Starmer is going to have a crackdown on knives according to the press today. After the last one last year. You’d think Amazon was responsible for the death of those girls from some of the headlines today. Oh, and a further crackdown on social media giants showing children harmful content is promised. After the last one.

The govt have their scapegoats. Something needs to be done. This is something.
Its all displacement activity. Just like scandal of grooming gangs descended into Musk is interfering and doesn't understand.

All the yutt with their zombie knives aren't getting those off Amazon, they will get them from dodgy resellers from social media who won't be asking for two forms of id, a live video, etc etc etc. All that has happened now is Maureen who wants a new kitchen knife will now have to jump through some more hurdles to get it off Amazon.

And the issue with the Southport terrorist of course isn't really that he got a knife of Amazon.
So, what *is* the issue?
Well for starters it looks highly likely that the authorities have dropped the ball on a number of occasions and despite being presented multiple times that he was a danger didn't take any action. And the week before he stabbed all the little girls, he was stopped by his father from committing something similar, but he was still walking the streets. He also admitted to regularly carrying knives in the past and we know he also made a chemical weapon...

But no, its that Amazon sold a 17 year old a knife is supposed the main issue....

I guess Starmer would say he is tackling those issues by holding an inquiry into what happened.

IanB2 · January 22

Says very little about the Tories’ economic (in)competence that Labour’s honeymoon was so short.

FrancisUrquhart · January 22

Government borrowing rose more than expected in December, hitting its highest level for the month for four years, official figures show. Borrowing - the difference between spending and tax revenue - was £17.8bn last month, £10.1bn more than in December 2023, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpwxzpqrnjko

boulay · January 22

Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

Taz · January 22

So it is "neither" who wins every category.

After the last 14 years the Tories lead on the economy !!!! I know Reeves has had a shaky start but now does seem to be doing something about growth.

Sandpit · January 22

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

It’s only an outrage when conservatives do it, no-one cares when liberals do it.

https://x.com/libsoftiktok/status/1881567286273990873

Is the entire US media really about to lose their collective minds for the next four years?

stodge · January 22

Evening all from New Zealand

Here, inflation is stuck at 2.2% and more job losses were announced today. I was reminded of that old mantra from the 1980s “ if it isn’t hurting, it isn’t working”.

I think the Neither Party will be quite happy with these poll results. I predict if they can form a pact with the Don’t Knows a landslide is likely.

JosiasJessop · January 22

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?

bondegezou · January 22

Sandpit said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

It’s only an outrage when conservatives do it, no-one cares when liberals do it.

https://x.com/libsoftiktok/status/1881567286273990873

Is the entire US media really about to lose their collective minds for the next four years?

Those are carefully chosen still photos. If you take the Harris one, as an example, you can see the video and she hasn’t done anything like a Nazi salute.

With Musk, you have the video, and he does two, so you can see the move from different angles. It looks very similar to a Nazi salute.

Now, Musk could have stopped all the speculation by simply clarifying he hates Nazis. He hasn’t.

The US media you read lost their collective minds many years ago. The Twitter account you quote, libsoftiktok, is a far right account that regularly posts misinformation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libs_of_TikTok

Sandpit · January 22

FrancisUrquhart said:
Government borrowing rose more than expected in December, hitting its highest level for the month for four years, official figures show. Borrowing - the difference between spending and tax revenue - was £17.8bn last month, £10.1bn more than in December 2023, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpwxzpqrnjko

Ouch, borrowing more than doubled Dec ‘23 to Dec ‘24.

bondegezou · January 22

Tommy Robinson’s team claims Musk is funding Tommy’s legal fees: https://inews.co.uk/news/elon-musk-funding-tommy-robinsons-legal-battles-3492964

That doesn’t exactly help the Musk-isn’t-a-Nazi argument…

JosiasJessop · January 22

Sandpit said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

It’s only an outrage when conservatives do it, no-one cares when liberals do it.

https://x.com/libsoftiktok/status/1881567286273990873

Is the entire US media really about to lose their collective minds for the next four years?

You are really, really stupid if you believe that is in any way a valid comparison.

TimS · January 22

bondegezou said:
Tommy Robinson’s team claims Musk is funding Tommy’s legal fees: https://inews.co.uk/news/elon-musk-funding-tommy-robinsons-legal-battles-3492964

That doesn’t exactly help the Musk-isn’t-a-Nazi argument…

You’re forgetting that the Overton window has shifted now and we need to get with the programme. Tommy Robinson is a concerned centre-right citizen held hostage by our woke government.

DavidL · January 22

FrancisUrquhart said:
Government borrowing rose more than expected in December, hitting its highest level for the month for four years, official figures show. Borrowing - the difference between spending and tax revenue - was £17.8bn last month, £10.1bn more than in December 2023, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpwxzpqrnjko

Makes the first round of cuts in the Spring statement or whatever Reeves ends up calling it almost inevitable followed by a second more far reaching round of cuts on the back of the spending review. Its going to be a bumpy year for Reeves. These cuts, though necessary, will form a headwind against growth. The recent forecast of 1.6% for the year look wildly optimistic to me.

Foxy · January 22

TimS said:

bondegezou said:
Tommy Robinson’s team claims Musk is funding Tommy’s legal fees: https://inews.co.uk/news/elon-musk-funding-tommy-robinsons-legal-battles-3492964

That doesn’t exactly help the Musk-isn’t-a-Nazi argument…
You’re forgetting that the Overton window has shifted now and we need to get with the programme. Tommy Robinson is a concerned centre-right citizen held hostage by our woke government.

Trump should pardon him.

Eabhal · January 22

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?

Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.

bondegezou · January 22

Foxy said:

TimS said:

bondegezou said:
Tommy Robinson’s team claims Musk is funding Tommy’s legal fees: https://inews.co.uk/news/elon-musk-funding-tommy-robinsons-legal-battles-3492964

That doesn’t exactly help the Musk-isn’t-a-Nazi argument…
You’re forgetting that the Overton window has shifted now and we need to get with the programme. Tommy Robinson is a concerned centre-right citizen held hostage by our woke government.
Trump should pardon him.

He did break US law when he entered the country on a false passport, so Trump could pardon him for that.

RochdalePioneers · January 22

I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves

StillWaters · January 22

Sandpit said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

It’s only an outrage when conservatives do it, no-one cares when liberals do it.

https://x.com/libsoftiktok/status/1881567286273990873

Is the entire US media really about to lose their collective minds for the next four years?

Look at the video not the carefully selected stills. Clinton is waving, for example

TheScreamingEagles · January 22

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

I am sorry but this graphic is utter nonsense.

Who calls a taxi these days?

Uber for the win.

StillWaters · January 22

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?

It’s clear he was deliberately using the symbology

What’s not clear is the motive

I suspect he was just trolling people for a reaction

But may be it was a dog whistle. Or may be he is a true believer

Either way it was inappropriate.

boulay · January 22

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves

Yes, I think he’s a bit socially inept, confused about ideologies, probably not overly versed in real history - more a basic highlights that suit kinda guy, got a bit excited saluting and high on his own supply but I don’t think he was feeling a Nuremberg rally buzz.

Daveyboy1961 · January 22

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves

I wonder how long it will before it crops up in school playgrounds.

boulay · January 22

Daveyboy1961 said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
I wonder how long it will before it crops up in school playgrounds.

Could come in handy though - will make it easier for teachers to spot which kids are holding knives they bought off Amazon.

Leon · January 22

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.

No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD

rkrkrk · January 22

Slightly bewildering poll. Labour seem to lead in all the specific parts of the economy, but there's this general sense that overall the Tories might be slightly better.

Perhaps "managing" is the wrong word to be using.

In any case, the Labour plan is to make tough decisions now and hopefully reap the reward in a few years. We aren't going to know if it's working until late this year/next.

Mexicanpete · January 22

...

Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD

Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.

Foxy · January 22

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves

Only one day in and the usual apologists are already defending Nazi salute.

It's going to be a long 4 years.

FF43 · January 22

Actually the winner on the economic competence question is "neither". Which may or may not be good for the Conservatives, but can't be good for the country.

DavidL · January 22

Foxy said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Only one day in and the usual apologists are already defending Nazi salute.

It's going to be a long 4 years.

1458 days to be exact, assuming he lives that long.

FF43 · January 22

It was a Trump salute, not a Hitler salute. Same action; different person.

Eabhal · January 22

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.

He's just joking bro. /s

The context of this in the UK is also worth noting. The country's top podcast, The Rest is History, is doing a harrowing series on the Nazi invasion of eastern Europe at the moment. Lots of echoes to what is going on right now, particularly the pardons for the Jan 6th rioters and the farcical behaviour of the top people in the regime. People will make the link.

I'd been working really hard on my Trump Derangement Syndrome, but I'm afraid the inaugaration speech, pardons and actual Nazi salute have set me back a few months.

Leon · January 22

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.

The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky

Mexicanpete · January 22

...

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky

You really are a juvenile tw@t!

Foxy · January 22

I see Trump has withdrawn John Boltons security.

https://bsky.app/profile/w7voa.journa.host.ap.brid.gy/post/3lgbpikucq2e2

Gangster times.

Sandpit · January 22

boulay said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Yes, I think he’s a bit socially inept, confused about ideologies, probably not overly versed in real history - more a basic highlights that suit kinda guy, got a bit excited saluting and high on his own supply but I don’t think he was feeling a Nuremberg rally buzz.

He’s a bit of a weird character, very socially awkward, clearly out of his comfort zone at political events rather than engineering meetings, and often wrong when mouthing off about international issues.

But let’s not call people Nazis unless they’re committing genocide, we should all agree to save the extreme language for the atrocities committed by China, Russia, Hamas etc.

Sean_F · January 22

On a serious note, I don’t think it would be that difficult for a modern government to carry out genocide, or to reintroduce enslavement (even if they were to call it something different).

noneoftheabove · January 22

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Only one day in and the usual apologists are already defending Nazi salute.

It's going to be a long 4 years.
1458 days to be exact, assuming he lives that long.

There is no guarantee Trump is only in power for 4 years. (there should be but the SC has been compromised).
There is no guarantee that the successor will be less authoritarian or extreme.

Leon · January 22

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!

If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were

FF43 · January 22

Wow!

US President Donald Trump says he has signed a full and unconditional pardon for Ross Ulbricht, who operated Silk Road, the dark web marketplace where illegal drugs were sold.

Ulbricht was convicted in 2015 in New York in a narcotics and money laundering conspiracy and sentenced to life in prison.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform that he had called Ulbricht's mother to inform her that he had granted a pardon to her son.

Silk Road, which was shut down in 2013 after police arrested Ulbricht, sold illegal drugs using Bitcoin, as well as hacking equipment and stolen passports.

"The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me," Trump said in his post online on Tuesday evening. "He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o

noneoftheabove · January 22

Sandpit said:

boulay said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Yes, I think he’s a bit socially inept, confused about ideologies, probably not overly versed in real history - more a basic highlights that suit kinda guy, got a bit excited saluting and high on his own supply but I don’t think he was feeling a Nuremberg rally buzz.
He’s a bit of a weird character, very socially awkward, clearly out of his comfort zone at political events rather than engineering meetings, and often wrong when mouthing off about international issues.

But let’s not call people Nazis unless they’re committing genocide, we should all agree to save the extreme language for the atrocities committed by China, Russia, Hamas etc.

Being a Nazi does not mean you have to commit genocide. Can we agree Hitler was clearly a Nazi well before the genocide started?

algarkirk · January 22

TimS said:

bondegezou said:
Tommy Robinson’s team claims Musk is funding Tommy’s legal fees: https://inews.co.uk/news/elon-musk-funding-tommy-robinsons-legal-battles-3492964

That doesn’t exactly help the Musk-isn’t-a-Nazi argument…
You’re forgetting that the Overton window has shifted now and we need to get with the programme. Tommy Robinson is a concerned centre-right citizen held hostage by our woke government.

Speaking of Overton windows, this from Mr Goodwin today is worth a glance, especially for anyone wondering what a Runcorn by-election and next GE might be about:

https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/maga-the-uk-version?utm_campaign=email-half-post&r=1mnpci&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

The politicians who think that the debate is or should be over how to buy a knife from Amazon may be in for a rude awakening.

What Trump has done is give huge publicity to what a UK social democrat+national populism manifesto might say.

JosiasJessop · January 22

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!
If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were

Bullshit. Such 'satire' is a sure sign of someone with sub-70 IQ. Perhaps sub-65.

And weren't you the prime example of someone who defended Musk on the grounds he's a (self-proclaimed) Asperger's sufferer?

noneoftheabove · January 22

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!
If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were

Everyone knows, and most still think juvenile twat is quite correct. Your desperate, constant need for attention doesn't trump the holocaust.

Mexicanpete · January 22

...

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!
If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were

There is nothing remotely humourous about your Musk event posts. They are simply the work of a knob.

Sean_F · January 22

FF43 said:
Wow!

US President Donald Trump says he has signed a full and unconditional pardon for Ross Ulbricht, who operated Silk Road, the dark web marketplace where illegal drugs were sold.

Ulbricht was convicted in 2015 in New York in a narcotics and money laundering conspiracy and sentenced to life in prison.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform that he had called Ulbricht's mother to inform her that he had granted a pardon to her son.

Silk Road, which was shut down in 2013 after police arrested Ulbricht, sold illegal drugs using Bitcoin, as well as hacking equipment and stolen passports.

"The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me," Trump said in his post online on Tuesday evening. "He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o

US Libertarians think he’s a martyr, presumably on the ground that drug trafficking is a legitimate business activity.

CJohn · January 22

Taz said:
So it is "neither" who wins every category.

After the last 14 years the Tories lead on the economy !!!! I know Reeves has had a shaky start but now does seem to be doing something about growth.

The very nature of a BB like this one is that conversation focuses on the latest minutiae and over-reacts and over-extrapolates. Otherwise, there would be no conversation.

The fact is it's far too early to draw any conclusions about Labour's economic competence or
otherwise.

The most recent growth figures reflect decisions and conditions that pre-existed Labour coming to power. Give them another year, then there'll be something substantive to judge.

FF43 · January 22

Foxy said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Only one day in and the usual apologists are already defending Nazi salute.

It's going to be a long 4 years.

Not an apologist but the other stuff that lot are doing is much worse

noneoftheabove · January 22

Sean_F said:
On a serious note, I don’t think it would be that difficult for a modern government to carry out genocide, or to reintroduce enslavement (even if they were to call it something different).

Sri Lanka and Myanmar this century, plus arguably Palestine, Uyghurs, Ethiopia and Yemen.

rottenborough · January 22

Sean_F said:

FF43 said:
Wow!

US President Donald Trump says he has signed a full and unconditional pardon for Ross Ulbricht, who operated Silk Road, the dark web marketplace where illegal drugs were sold.

Ulbricht was convicted in 2015 in New York in a narcotics and money laundering conspiracy and sentenced to life in prison.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform that he had called Ulbricht's mother to inform her that he had granted a pardon to her son.

Silk Road, which was shut down in 2013 after police arrested Ulbricht, sold illegal drugs using Bitcoin, as well as hacking equipment and stolen passports.

"The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me," Trump said in his post online on Tuesday evening. "He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o
US Libertarians think he’s a martyr, presumably on the ground that drug trafficking is a legitimate business activity.

Bit inconsistent from the Trumpsters. Didn't Trump say unless Canada stops drugs crossing its border within days he'll slap one million %tarrif on all trade?

Foxy · January 22

FF43 said:
Wow!

US President Donald Trump says he has signed a full and unconditional pardon for Ross Ulbricht, who operated Silk Road, the dark web marketplace where illegal drugs were sold.

Ulbricht was convicted in 2015 in New York in a narcotics and money laundering conspiracy and sentenced to life in prison.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform that he had called Ulbricht's mother to inform her that he had granted a pardon to her son.

Silk Road, which was shut down in 2013 after police arrested Ulbricht, sold illegal drugs using Bitcoin, as well as hacking equipment and stolen passports.

"The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me," Trump said in his post online on Tuesday evening. "He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o

The US is now a gangster state based on patronage. Ulbricht was convicted of money laundering, facilitating the drug trade and attempting to arrange contract killings.

Trump's reason is that he delivered some votes. It's all about patronage.

TimS · January 22

noneoftheabove said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Only one day in and the usual apologists are already defending Nazi salute.

It's going to be a long 4 years.
1458 days to be exact, assuming he lives that long.
There is no guarantee Trump is only in power for 4 years. (there should be but the SC has been compromised).
There is no guarantee that the successor will be less authoritarian or extreme.

I placed him on the leader Beaufort scale yesterday as a force 4-5 (moderate unease) in the first term and seemingly starting this one at 6: strongman.

Where he goes from here depends on how far up the dictator scale he decides or is able to climb. Some things to look out for, in an ascending scale:

- altering the constitution to reinforce presidential powers
- Neutering or biasing the court system
- arresting and detaining journalists
- Manipulation of election processes
- Manipulation of election results
- censoring some forms of media
- Extrajudicial killings - denied
- extrajudicial killings - openly admitted

For reference points, Netanyahu and Orban are about a third to half way up the scale, Erdogan and Lukashenko are closing in on the full suite.

noneoftheabove · January 22

Foxy said:

FF43 said:
Wow!

US President Donald Trump says he has signed a full and unconditional pardon for Ross Ulbricht, who operated Silk Road, the dark web marketplace where illegal drugs were sold.

Ulbricht was convicted in 2015 in New York in a narcotics and money laundering conspiracy and sentenced to life in prison.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform that he had called Ulbricht's mother to inform her that he had granted a pardon to her son.

Silk Road, which was shut down in 2013 after police arrested Ulbricht, sold illegal drugs using Bitcoin, as well as hacking equipment and stolen passports.

"The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me," Trump said in his post online on Tuesday evening. "He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o
The US is now a gangster state based on patronage. Ulbricht was convicted of money laundering, facilitating the drug trade and attempting to arrange contract killings.

Trump's reason is that he delivered some votes. It's all about patronage.

Might be worth checking the crypto blockchains if the President didn't have full immunity anyway.....

Ratters · January 22

For all the excited talk of government debt crisis a week or two ago, I note government bond yields are back where they started the year.

Following US treasury yields of course. Just as they were on the way up.

Malmesbury · January 22

FF43 said:
Wow!

US President Donald Trump says he has signed a full and unconditional pardon for Ross Ulbricht, who operated Silk Road, the dark web marketplace where illegal drugs were sold.

Ulbricht was convicted in 2015 in New York in a narcotics and money laundering conspiracy and sentenced to life in prison.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform that he had called Ulbricht's mother to inform her that he had granted a pardon to her son.

Silk Road, which was shut down in 2013 after police arrested Ulbricht, sold illegal drugs using Bitcoin, as well as hacking equipment and stolen passports.

"The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me," Trump said in his post online on Tuesday evening. "He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o

Ordering a murder and paying for it, while running organised crime, tends to trigger the Legally Non Challenged Community.

FF43 · January 22

Sean_F said:

FF43 said:
Wow!

US President Donald Trump says he has signed a full and unconditional pardon for Ross Ulbricht, who operated Silk Road, the dark web marketplace where illegal drugs were sold.

Ulbricht was convicted in 2015 in New York in a narcotics and money laundering conspiracy and sentenced to life in prison.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform that he had called Ulbricht's mother to inform her that he had granted a pardon to her son.

Silk Road, which was shut down in 2013 after police arrested Ulbricht, sold illegal drugs using Bitcoin, as well as hacking equipment and stolen passports.

"The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me," Trump said in his post online on Tuesday evening. "He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o
US Libertarians think he’s a martyr, presumably on the ground that drug trafficking is a legitimate business activity.

It seems it's more Trump getting his revenge on the entire US judiciary.

Sean_F · January 22

rottenborough said:

Sean_F said:

FF43 said:
Wow!

US President Donald Trump says he has signed a full and unconditional pardon for Ross Ulbricht, who operated Silk Road, the dark web marketplace where illegal drugs were sold.

Ulbricht was convicted in 2015 in New York in a narcotics and money laundering conspiracy and sentenced to life in prison.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform that he had called Ulbricht's mother to inform her that he had granted a pardon to her son.

Silk Road, which was shut down in 2013 after police arrested Ulbricht, sold illegal drugs using Bitcoin, as well as hacking equipment and stolen passports.

"The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me," Trump said in his post online on Tuesday evening. "He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o
US Libertarians think he’s a martyr, presumably on the ground that drug trafficking is a legitimate business activity.
Bit inconsistent from the Trumpsters. Didn't Trump say unless Canada stops drugs crossing its border within days he'll slap one million %tarrif on all trade?

Life in some pound-you-in-the-ass hellhole is for the poor, and blacks, not for the elite.

TimS · January 22

CJohn said:

Taz said:
So it is "neither" who wins every category.

After the last 14 years the Tories lead on the economy !!!! I know Reeves has had a shaky start but now does seem to be doing something about growth.
The very nature of a BB like this one is that conversation focuses on the latest minutiae and over-reacts and over-extrapolates. Otherwise, there would be no conversation.

The fact is it's far too early to draw any conclusions about Labour's economic competence or
otherwise.

The most recent growth figures reflect decisions and conditions that pre-existed Labour coming to power. Give them another year, then there'll be something substantive to judge.

Particularly the debt figures: those are a direct result of Hunt’s NI cuts.

Pulpstar · January 22

Foxy said:
I see Trump has withdrawn John Boltons security.

https://bsky.app/profile/w7voa.journa.host.ap.brid.gy/post/3lgbpikucq2e2

Gangster times.

😂 No bigger warmonger than ol' Bolton

Leon · January 22

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!
If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were
Everyone knows, and most still think juvenile twat is quite correct. Your desperate, constant need for attention doesn't trump the holocaust.

On the other hand, the spectacle of the PB left having a collective meltdown of asinine piety and moral hysteria, complete with uterine prolapse, at anything to do with Trump or Musk, is deeply hilarious

So if my humble efforts keep that going, or even inflame it, we’re all winners

You get to vent and rage, we get to quietly laugh

FrancisUrquhart · January 22

Convicted benefits cheats who fail to pay back the taxpayer could be stripped of their driving licences, under government plans to crack down on fraud. Those who repeatedly cheat the system and have debts of £1,000 or more could be punished with a driving ban of up to two years.

The plans also include new powers to force banks to hand over account information about benefit claimants to help target investigations, echoing a scheme announced by the previous Conservative government. But this is likely to face strong opposition from the banks and privacy campaigners.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg9px4q0y6o

Sandpit · January 22

FF43 said:
Wow!

US President Donald Trump says he has signed a full and unconditional pardon for Ross Ulbricht, who operated Silk Road, the dark web marketplace where illegal drugs were sold.

Ulbricht was convicted in 2015 in New York in a narcotics and money laundering conspiracy and sentenced to life in prison.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform that he had called Ulbricht's mother to inform her that he had granted a pardon to her son.

Silk Road, which was shut down in 2013 after police arrested Ulbricht, sold illegal drugs using Bitcoin, as well as hacking equipment and stolen passports.

"The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me," Trump said in his post online on Tuesday evening. "He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o

A pardon for Ulbricht was Trump’s promise to the Libertarian Party Conference last year.

He’s spent 12 years in prison for running a Bitcoin marketplace, convicted as a drug dealer because others were using the platform to sell drugs.

For some reason the authorities didn’t care much to go after Facebook, Craigslist, or any other online platform full of illegal goods and services, only Ulbricht, and the judge made a point of throwing the book at him.

Mexicanpete · January 22

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!
If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were

All that is as maybe,

However, in all the years of my involvement in ASD charities and referrals to specialists, you are the only Autism expert I have come across using the term "Aspie".

JosiasJessop · January 22

TimS said:

noneoftheabove said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Only one day in and the usual apologists are already defending Nazi salute.

It's going to be a long 4 years.
1458 days to be exact, assuming he lives that long.
There is no guarantee Trump is only in power for 4 years. (there should be but the SC has been compromised).
There is no guarantee that the successor will be less authoritarian or extreme.
I placed him on the leader Beaufort scale yesterday as a force 4-5 (moderate unease) in the first term and seemingly starting this one at 6: strongman.

Where he goes from here depends on how far up the dictator scale he decides or is able to climb. Some things to look out for, in an ascending scale:

- altering the constitution to reinforce presidential powers
- Neutering or biasing the court system
- arresting and detaining journalists
- Manipulation of election processes
- Manipulation of election results
- censoring some forms of media
- Extrajudicial killings - denied
- extrajudicial killings - openly admitted

For reference points, Netanyahu and Orban are about a third to half way up the scale, Erdogan and Lukashenko are closing in on the full suite.

I'm currently reading Iain Dale's 'Dictators' book, which has short biographies of 64 dictators, past and present. It's surprising how varied they are, in background, how they gained power, how they ran their countries, and how they left their countries.

Is trump a dictator? No. Could he become one? Yes. He and the people around him already use the language of dictators. It's just that the laws have yet to catch up.

RochdalePioneers · January 22

Ratters said:
For all the excited talk of government debt crisis a week or two ago, I note government bond yields are back where they started the year.

Following US treasury yields of course. Just as they were on the way up.

Wrong. When bonds yields were rising it was all Reeves’s fault. Now that they’re declining it’s thanks to Trump. Either way, Truss was clearly defamed. Or whatever passes for alt-right “logic” these days

Sandpit · January 22

noneoftheabove said:

Sandpit said:

boulay said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Yes, I think he’s a bit socially inept, confused about ideologies, probably not overly versed in real history - more a basic highlights that suit kinda guy, got a bit excited saluting and high on his own supply but I don’t think he was feeling a Nuremberg rally buzz.
He’s a bit of a weird character, very socially awkward, clearly out of his comfort zone at political events rather than engineering meetings, and often wrong when mouthing off about international issues.

But let’s not call people Nazis unless they’re committing genocide, we should all agree to save the extreme language for the atrocities committed by China, Russia, Hamas etc.
Being a Nazi does not mean you have to commit genocide. Can we agree Hitler was clearly a Nazi well before the genocide started?

Hitler was indeed a Nazi before the genocide, we can agree on that.

However, modern-day comparisons to Hitler and Nazis should be reserved for those actually committing the worst atrocities committed by Hitler and the Nazis.

noneoftheabove · January 22

Leon said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!
If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were
Everyone knows, and most still think juvenile twat is quite correct. Your desperate, constant need for attention doesn't trump the holocaust.
On the other hand, the spectacle of the PB left having a collective meltdown of asinine piety and moral hysteria, complete with uterine prolapse, at anything to do with Trump or Musk, is deeply hilarious

So if my humble efforts keep that going, or even inflame it, we’re all winners

You get to vent and rage, we get to quietly laugh

I am laughing too, not worth venting and raging over what we cannot control and is going to last at least 4 years, probably a decade or two. Sadness though at the end of western democracy.

viewcode · January 22

Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD

Oh God, Dougal, do we have to do this again? Nazis bad. Nazis BAAAD. Now stop playing with your Hugo Boss uniform and go play with the other children.

algarkirk · January 22

Trumpism needs analysing of course, and partly we shall have to wait and see. But one thing is profound for its influence on UK politics.

At the moment Trumpism looks like two ideologically separable movements: Firstly, gangster oligarchy; secondly nationalist populism.

WRT popular response in the UK, it seems to me that there is substantial public resonance with the second, while about the first there will be little active support and less understanding.

In this sense Reform (and Jenrick's mob) need to be connected with the second, but disconnected from the first. (I doubt if the UK is ready for unbridled gangster oligarchy, yet.) This may prove quite hard. It will be interesting to watch.

Sandpit · January 22

FrancisUrquhart said:
Convicted benefits cheats who fail to pay back the taxpayer could be stripped of their driving licences, under government plans to crack down on fraud. Those who repeatedly cheat the system and have debts of £1,000 or more could be punished with a driving ban of up to two years.

The plans also include new powers to force banks to hand over account information about benefit claimants to help target investigations, echoing a scheme announced by the previous Conservative government. But this is likely to face strong opposition from the banks and privacy campaigners.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg9px4q0y6o

How does it possibly help society to remove driving licences for non-driving offences?

All that happens is that someone working to pay their debts ends up losing their job, which isn’t going to help the situation.

Mexicanpete · January 22

Sandpit said:

noneoftheabove said:

Sandpit said:

boulay said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Yes, I think he’s a bit socially inept, confused about ideologies, probably not overly versed in real history - more a basic highlights that suit kinda guy, got a bit excited saluting and high on his own supply but I don’t think he was feeling a Nuremberg rally buzz.
He’s a bit of a weird character, very socially awkward, clearly out of his comfort zone at political events rather than engineering meetings, and often wrong when mouthing off about international issues.

But let’s not call people Nazis unless they’re committing genocide, we should all agree to save the extreme language for the atrocities committed by China, Russia, Hamas etc.
Being a Nazi does not mean you have to commit genocide. Can we agree Hitler was clearly a Nazi well before the genocide started?
Hitler was indeed a Nazi before the genocide, we can agree on that.

However, modern-day comparisons to Hitler and Nazis should be reserved for those actually committing the worst atrocities committed by Hitler and the Nazis.

How does carpet bombing Gaza measure up?

Asking for a friend.

noneoftheabove · January 22

Sandpit said:

noneoftheabove said:

Sandpit said:

boulay said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Yes, I think he’s a bit socially inept, confused about ideologies, probably not overly versed in real history - more a basic highlights that suit kinda guy, got a bit excited saluting and high on his own supply but I don’t think he was feeling a Nuremberg rally buzz.
He’s a bit of a weird character, very socially awkward, clearly out of his comfort zone at political events rather than engineering meetings, and often wrong when mouthing off about international issues.

But let’s not call people Nazis unless they’re committing genocide, we should all agree to save the extreme language for the atrocities committed by China, Russia, Hamas etc.
Being a Nazi does not mean you have to commit genocide. Can we agree Hitler was clearly a Nazi well before the genocide started?
Hitler was indeed a Nazi before the genocide, we can agree on that.

However, modern-day comparisons to Hitler and Nazis should be reserved for those actually committing the worst atrocities committed by Hitler and the Nazis.

Why? It is a political philisophy, not a crime sheet. Some communists might approve of Stalins worst actions, but most don't.

Leon · January 22

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!
If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were
All that is as maybe,

However, in all the years of my involvement in ASD charities and referrals to specialists, you are the only Autism expert I have come across using the term "Aspie".

Really? Then I suggest you’re not trying very hard

Let me introduce you to

https://www.reddit.com/r/AspieGirls/s/DWbuDSe9Og

Eabhal · January 22

Sandpit said:

noneoftheabove said:

Sandpit said:

boulay said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Yes, I think he’s a bit socially inept, confused about ideologies, probably not overly versed in real history - more a basic highlights that suit kinda guy, got a bit excited saluting and high on his own supply but I don’t think he was feeling a Nuremberg rally buzz.
He’s a bit of a weird character, very socially awkward, clearly out of his comfort zone at political events rather than engineering meetings, and often wrong when mouthing off about international issues.

But let’s not call people Nazis unless they’re committing genocide, we should all agree to save the extreme language for the atrocities committed by China, Russia, Hamas etc.
Being a Nazi does not mean you have to commit genocide. Can we agree Hitler was clearly a Nazi well before the genocide started?
Hitler was indeed a Nazi before the genocide, we can agree on that.

However, modern-day comparisons to Hitler and Nazis should be reserved for those actually committing the worst atrocities committed by Hitler and the Nazis.

By then it's too late.

Nigelb · January 22

Eabhal said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
He's just joking bro. /s

The context of this in the UK is also worth noting. The country's top podcast, The Rest is History, is doing a harrowing series on the Nazi invasion of eastern Europe at the moment. Lots of echoes to what is going on right now, particularly the pardons for the Jan 6th rioters and the farcical behaviour of the top people in the regime. People will make the link.

I'd been working really hard on my Trump Derangement Syndrome, but I'm afraid the inaugaration speech, pardons and actual Nazi salute have set me back a few months.

The "we'll pardon some of them, but not the violent rioters" lasted all of one week.
I said a little while back that we should judge Trump on how he governs; the first couple of days haven't given much grounds for optimism.

Leon · January 22

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!
If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were
Everyone knows, and most still think juvenile twat is quite correct. Your desperate, constant need for attention doesn't trump the holocaust.
On the other hand, the spectacle of the PB left having a collective meltdown of asinine piety and moral hysteria, complete with uterine prolapse, at anything to do with Trump or Musk, is deeply hilarious

So if my humble efforts keep that going, or even inflame it, we’re all winners

You get to vent and rage, we get to quietly laugh
I am laughing too, not worth venting and raging over what we cannot control and is going to last at least 4 years, probably a decade or two. Sadness though at the end of western democracy.

“The end of western democracy”

Right

Cf my remarks: “a collective meltdown of asinine piety and moral HYSTERIA”

algarkirk · January 22

The most important figures in the YouGov chart at the head are that in every single case 'Neither'+'DK' has a clear majority. Neither party gets even one third support on anything.

FrancisUrquhart · January 22

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Convicted benefits cheats who fail to pay back the taxpayer could be stripped of their driving licences, under government plans to crack down on fraud. Those who repeatedly cheat the system and have debts of £1,000 or more could be punished with a driving ban of up to two years.

The plans also include new powers to force banks to hand over account information about benefit claimants to help target investigations, echoing a scheme announced by the previous Conservative government. But this is likely to face strong opposition from the banks and privacy campaigners.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg9px4q0y6o
How does it possibly help society to remove driving licences for non-driving offences?

All that happens is that someone working to pay their debts ends up losing their job, which isn’t going to help the situation.

It feels like a gimmick and one that won't actually happen, beyond perhaps a couple of people who get made an example of.

If I was the government and looking to go after / sanction properly people cheating the system....child benefits payments from absent parents (mostly fathers). The Child Support Agency / Child Maintenance Service is an absolute shit show these days.

Jonathan · January 22

The right rage impotently against Starmer, the left rage impotently against Trump. Their opponents wind them up.

🤷‍♂️ 2025 politics 🤷‍♂️

Luckyguy1983 · January 22

Pulpstar said:

Foxy said:
I see Trump has withdrawn John Boltons security.

https://bsky.app/profile/w7voa.journa.host.ap.brid.gy/post/3lgbpikucq2e2

Gangster times.
😂 No bigger warmonger than ol' Bolton

Quite.

Very easy to constantly advocate dropping bombs on brown people when you have precisely zero fear of blowback.

JosiasJessop · January 22

Sandpit said:

noneoftheabove said:

Sandpit said:

boulay said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Yes, I think he’s a bit socially inept, confused about ideologies, probably not overly versed in real history - more a basic highlights that suit kinda guy, got a bit excited saluting and high on his own supply but I don’t think he was feeling a Nuremberg rally buzz.
He’s a bit of a weird character, very socially awkward, clearly out of his comfort zone at political events rather than engineering meetings, and often wrong when mouthing off about international issues.

But let’s not call people Nazis unless they’re committing genocide, we should all agree to save the extreme language for the atrocities committed by China, Russia, Hamas etc.
Being a Nazi does not mean you have to commit genocide. Can we agree Hitler was clearly a Nazi well before the genocide started?
Hitler was indeed a Nazi before the genocide, we can agree on that.

However, modern-day comparisons to Hitler and Nazis should be reserved for those actually committing the worst atrocities committed by Hitler and the Nazis.

Why?

Surely early comparisons might allow people to detect, and stop, modern-day Nazis from committing the worst sort of atrocities.

bondegezou · January 22

Sandpit said:

boulay said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I’m still on the “Musk is a moron” bus rather than the “Musk is a Nazi” bus. Albeit one where the appalling timing really doesn’t help.

Curious the reaction from the right. Twitter doing its best to remove it from history as it it never happened, and otherwise sensible people trying to make out that lefties also do Nazi salutes. Pleeeeease stop embarrassing yourselves
Yes, I think he’s a bit socially inept, confused about ideologies, probably not overly versed in real history - more a basic highlights that suit kinda guy, got a bit excited saluting and high on his own supply but I don’t think he was feeling a Nuremberg rally buzz.
He’s a bit of a weird character, very socially awkward, clearly out of his comfort zone at political events rather than engineering meetings, and often wrong when mouthing off about international issues.

But let’s not call people Nazis unless they’re committing genocide, we should all agree to save the extreme language for the atrocities committed by China, Russia, Hamas etc.

The Nazis were Nazis before they started committing genocide. It's useful to recognise and stop Nazis before they get to the genocide stage.

And it's a bit weird you coming along sharing libsoftiktok tweets and then railing against people overusing "extreme language".

Mexicanpete · January 22

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!
If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were
All that is as maybe,

However, in all the years of my involvement in ASD charities and referrals to specialists, you are the only Autism expert I have come across using the term "Aspie".
Really? Then I suggest you’re not trying very hard

Let me introduce you to

https://www.reddit.com/r/AspieGirls/s/DWbuDSe9Og

I seem to remember you referencing "Aspie Girls" last time we had this debate.

Anyway haven't you got some Far Eastern hookers to settle payment with? What are you doing on here when there are better things to do?

Foss · January 22

FrancisUrquhart said:
Convicted benefits cheats who fail to pay back the taxpayer could be stripped of their driving licences, under government plans to crack down on fraud. Those who repeatedly cheat the system and have debts of £1,000 or more could be punished with a driving ban of up to two years.

The plans also include new powers to force banks to hand over account information about benefit claimants to help target investigations, echoing a scheme announced by the previous Conservative government. But this is likely to face strong opposition from the banks and privacy campaigners.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg9px4q0y6o

That's just the warmup act before they move onto people skipping out on student loans and their passports.

Nigelb · January 22

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:
Wow!

US President Donald Trump says he has signed a full and unconditional pardon for Ross Ulbricht, who operated Silk Road, the dark web marketplace where illegal drugs were sold.

Ulbricht was convicted in 2015 in New York in a narcotics and money laundering conspiracy and sentenced to life in prison.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform that he had called Ulbricht's mother to inform her that he had granted a pardon to her son.

Silk Road, which was shut down in 2013 after police arrested Ulbricht, sold illegal drugs using Bitcoin, as well as hacking equipment and stolen passports.

"The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me," Trump said in his post online on Tuesday evening. "He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o
Ordering a murder and paying for it, while running organised crime, tends to trigger the Legally Non Challenged Community.

It ought not to come as a surprise, though.
Trump said he'd do this when campaigning.

Leon · January 22

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!
If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were
All that is as maybe,

However, in all the years of my involvement in ASD charities and referrals to specialists, you are the only Autism expert I have come across using the term "Aspie".
Really? Then I suggest you’re not trying very hard

Let me introduce you to

https://www.reddit.com/r/AspieGirls/s/DWbuDSe9Og
I seem to remember you referencing "Aspie Girls" last time we had this debate.

Anyway haven't you got some Far Eastern hookers to settle payment with? What are you doing on here when there are better things to do?

I’ve just proved that you are wrong, the normal reaction is to say “fair enough, I was wrong”

But no, you can’t do that, instead you make some bizarre ad hominem attack, presumably because you’re embarrassed

Unedifying

Theuniondivvie · January 22

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky

Err, what were the good bits of the Holocaust?

rottenborough · January 22

FrancisUrquhart said:

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Convicted benefits cheats who fail to pay back the taxpayer could be stripped of their driving licences, under government plans to crack down on fraud. Those who repeatedly cheat the system and have debts of £1,000 or more could be punished with a driving ban of up to two years.

The plans also include new powers to force banks to hand over account information about benefit claimants to help target investigations, echoing a scheme announced by the previous Conservative government. But this is likely to face strong opposition from the banks and privacy campaigners.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg9px4q0y6o
How does it possibly help society to remove driving licences for non-driving offences?

All that happens is that someone working to pay their debts ends up losing their job, which isn’t going to help the situation.
It feels like a gimmick and one that won't actually happen, beyond perhaps a couple of people who get made an example of.

If I was the government and looking to go after / sanction properly people cheating the system....child benefits payments from absent parents (mostly fathers). The Child Support Agency / Child Maintenance Service is an absolute shit show these days.

I'm sure it is only yesterday we were being told of government plans to digitise the driving licence and stick on phones and thereby create a national id.

Today's announcement feels very much like a panicked response of 'get a headline' from Liz K in response to briefings from no 10 at weekend that she is not moving fast enough on slashing welfare.

bondegezou · January 22

Theuniondivvie said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
Err, what were the good bits of the Holocaust?

He's just being an edgelord. Ignore him.

Leon · January 22

Theuniondivvie said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
Err, what were the good bits of the Holocaust?

Freed up a lot of parking in krakow - did you see it in 1938? Terrible

Theuniondivvie · January 22

bondegezou said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
Err, what were the good bits of the Holocaust?
He's just being an edgelord. Ignore him.

I’m hoping for at least a ‘they didn’t manage to round up and gas all the lefties but they had a good go’.

FF43 · January 22

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:
Wow!

US President Donald Trump says he has signed a full and unconditional pardon for Ross Ulbricht, who operated Silk Road, the dark web marketplace where illegal drugs were sold.

Ulbricht was convicted in 2015 in New York in a narcotics and money laundering conspiracy and sentenced to life in prison.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform that he had called Ulbricht's mother to inform her that he had granted a pardon to her son.

Silk Road, which was shut down in 2013 after police arrested Ulbricht, sold illegal drugs using Bitcoin, as well as hacking equipment and stolen passports.

"The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me," Trump said in his post online on Tuesday evening. "He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o
A pardon for Ulbricht was Trump’s promise to the Libertarian Party Conference last year.

He’s spent 12 years in prison for running a Bitcoin marketplace, convicted as a drug dealer because others were using the platform to sell drugs.

For some reason the authorities didn’t care much to go after Facebook, Craigslist, or any other online platform full of illegal goods and services, only Ulbricht, and the judge made a point of throwing the book at him.

eBay but not eBay.

The site was modeled, sensibly, on Amazon and eBay. And that’s what it looked like: a well-organized community marketplace, complete with profiles, listings, and transaction reviews. Everything was anonymous, and shipments often went through the regular old postal service. No need for fake names—you put your real address, and if any one asks, you just say you didn’t order all that heroin!

Silk Road’s “Seller’s Guide” had helpful instructions on how to vacuum-seal or otherwise hide drugs to evade electronic sensors or canine olfactories. Most shipments made it to happy customers. That the small percentage of intercepted Silk Road packages represented an uptick spoke to the quickly rising volume of the site’s trade, a vast pharmacopeia covering dozens of categories with 13,000 listings. It was a colorful smorgasbord for every type of connoisseur: fishscale Colombian cocaine, Afghan No. 4 heroin, strawberry LSD, Caramello hash, Mercury’s Famous uncut cocaine flakes, Mario Invincibility Star XTC, white Mitsubishi MDMA, a black tar heroin called the Devil’s Licorice.

Then there were the prescription meds, everything from Oxycontin and Xanax to Fentanyl and Dilaudid. Silk Road’s product descriptions and user ratings amounted to an encyclopedic information source.

Well worth a read. Not at all the OK kind of guy people of a political persuasion make him out to be:

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/silk-road-1/

williamglenn · January 22

https://x.com/realchrisrufo/status/1881910254935626011

President Trump has signed an executive order rescinding Lyndon Johnson's EO 11246, which established affirmative action, and banning all federal contractors and publicly-funded universities from practicing race-based discrimination, including DEI.

A massive shift.

JosiasJessop · January 22

"The new Syrian government has terminated the lease contract of the Tartus port to the Russian state, effective immediately. Originally, it was scheduled to run until the year 2068.

The Russian chapter in Syria is now formally over."

https://x.com/Tendar/status/1881976840031781202

kenObi · January 22

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Convicted benefits cheats who fail to pay back the taxpayer could be stripped of their driving licences, under government plans to crack down on fraud. Those who repeatedly cheat the system and have debts of £1,000 or more could be punished with a driving ban of up to two years.

The plans also include new powers to force banks to hand over account information about benefit claimants to help target investigations, echoing a scheme announced by the previous Conservative government. But this is likely to face strong opposition from the banks and privacy campaigners.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg9px4q0y6o
How does it possibly help society to remove driving licences for non-driving offences?

All that happens is that someone working to pay their debts ends up losing their job, which isn’t going to help the situation.

If you employ more than a couple of people then chances are you will have received an attachment of earnings order from a court that relates to a whole host of unpaid debts.
I have had employees with deductions that have gone back as far as 15 years from the original magistrates order (employee had worked for us for 15 months before I recieved notification).

It would be far better making the existing system work (benefits can be reduced, attachments of earning can be swiftly processed), than adding more penalties that in all likelihood won't be imposed.

It will need a court order so there is some checks and balances - which just adds more work, delays and costs to an over worked judicial system.

It seems like a gimmick and more performative nonsense from the government to make them look 'tough'.

A similar performative nonsense was solicitor general, Lucy Rigby, referring Urfan Sharif's sentence to the Court of Appeal for undue leniency.
He was sentenced to life with a 40 year minimum tarriff. He would not even be eligible for parole until he aged 83. A heinous crime but the sentence feels right and I doubt the CoA will increase it. But appealing it makes the solicitor general look tough.
Perfomative nonsense - please stop it.

Leon · January 22

On a less satirical note there probably were “upsides to the Holocaust” - because nothing in human history is ever purely 100% evil in all possible ways, and nothing is 100% good, conversely

I imagine Zionists would say that the creation of a Jewish state and homeland is one such upside. Would surely never have happened without the Shoah

I can understand Palestinians feeling quite differently

Theuniondivvie · January 22

David Lammy guest editor obviously.

https://x.com/privateeyenews/status/1881976195224662453?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

Mexicanpete · January 22

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
You really are a juvenile tw@t!
If you weren’t such a bedwetting dimwit you’d realise I’m actually satirising those who would defend Musk on the grounds he’s an Aspie

However to get this subtlety you probably need an IQ of 120 minimum so, as you were
All that is as maybe,

However, in all the years of my involvement in ASD charities and referrals to specialists, you are the only Autism expert I have come across using the term "Aspie".
Really? Then I suggest you’re not trying very hard

Let me introduce you to

https://www.reddit.com/r/AspieGirls/s/DWbuDSe9Og
I seem to remember you referencing "Aspie Girls" last time we had this debate.

Anyway haven't you got some Far Eastern hookers to settle payment with? What are you doing on here when there are better things to do?
I’ve just proved that you are wrong, the normal reaction is to say “fair enough, I was wrong”

But no, you can’t do that, instead you make some bizarre ad hominem attack, presumably because you’re embarrassed

Unedifying

Not at all. In all the meetings, events, medical consultations I have attended over the last twenty plus years ( and that is an awful lot of meetings, events and consultations) the term has never come up.

Every day is a school day on PB.

Anyway I am about to f*** off to Carmarthen. Enjoy your posting day without my unwanted commentary.

JosiasJessop · January 22

Theuniondivvie said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:
...
Leon said:

Eabhal said:

JosiasJessop said:

boulay said:
Someone kindly placed a useful guide on Twitter for those compelled to raise their arms in public.

I hope this is a help to those on PB who might have to speak at a large rally of weirdos in the future.

There was a video on Twix showing how varied Nazi salutes were, even by the higher-ups, with camera angles mattering a fair bit as well. Just vaguely put your arm straight in the air, like an upper-quadrant signal. (*)

Musk was either stupid or deliberately using Nazi symbiology.

(*) Perhaps the GWR were the least-Nazi railway company?
Yes, and the clutching the heart thing was a Hitler-special. I hadn't realised, but that's why football ultras use it Europe. My initial attempt at Devil's advocate was misplaced.

Fascinating watching PBers trying to come to terms with it. I think Leon accepted it wasn't very good, but we still have a few people clinging on.
No, I accepted it was at least half a Heil Hitler, but I never said it was a bad thing

Like @TimS I’m keeping up with the vibeshift

Yes it was a Nazi salute - and that’s GOOD
Perhaps before you edit that post you might want to reflect on the Holocaust and all that the symbolic gesture you celebrate in your post represents.
The Holocaust was pretty bad - certainly more bad than good, even if there were positives - when have I ever tried to minimise it?

However it only happened because Hitler is on the spectrum. It’s called “stimming”. It’s what autistic people do when they are overstimulated - hence “stim”

Some autistic people jump or hum or wave their arms, some crack knuckles or roll their eyes, Hitler built a complex machine of death across all of central/Eastern Europe so as to transport around eight million people to an industrialised massacre, on a different day he might have just hopped up and down

We just got unlucky
Err, what were the good bits of the Holocaust?

I bet Leon likes the rapes. And the pulling of teeth for gold. And all the shootings of innocent civilians. Tough men doing tough jobs. His sort of people.

Some optimism for the Tories in the latest YouGov poll – politicalbetting.com

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