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TheScreamingEagles said:

I'm not sure what to make of this, as I'm opposed to the death penalty

A rapist and murderer is to be put to death in Belgium this week, despite Europe’s ban on the death penalty, after a court granted him the right to euthanasia.

Frank Van Den Bleeken, 52, is not physically ill but claims his “psychological suffering” is unbearable and that he would prefer to die than spend more of his life behind bars.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/11324579/Belgian-rapist-and-murderer-to-be-put-to-death-by-lethal-injection.html

tory_up_north said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I'm not sure what to make of this, as I'm opposed to the death penalty

A rapist and murderer is to be put to death in Belgium this week, despite Europe’s ban on the death penalty, after a court granted him the right to euthanasia.

Frank Van Den Bleeken, 52, is not physically ill but claims his “psychological suffering” is unbearable and that he would prefer to die than spend more of his life behind bars.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/11324579/Belgian-rapist-and-murderer-to-be-put-to-death-by-lethal-injection.html

I'm not sure what to make of it as I'm opposed to euthanasia.

Richard_Tyndall said:

foxinsoxuk said:

But the actual numbers are very similar.

Australia gets about the same number of immigrants as us, so roughly 3 times the per-capita rate as the UK.

In Norway 14% of the population are immigrants or who have two parents who were immigrants. Apart from Swedes the main immigrant groups are Polish, Lithuanian, Somali and Pakistani.

Sounds more like they have a higher rate of immigration than us, and not an especially highly skilled one.

Both Australia and Norway have high unemployment and other social issues in immigrant communities much as we do. UKIP and the BOOers are selling snake oil cures for immigration and they know it.

Far better to have active programmes to integrate migrants with English lessons etc, I would also encourage EU migrants to take British citizenship so that they can involve themselves fully in our society.

Hardly comparable given that Australia is the 3rd least densely populated country in the world and Norway the 27th.

And of course you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot because Norway being in the EEA cannot control EU migration.

As I say I am not opposed to more migration if it is for the benefit of the country but you cannot even start to have that debate if you have no control over migration in the first place.

And As I have said before a system that says - as you have done in an earlier post this evening - that it would rather have a Pole than, for example, an Indian as an immigrant is straying dangerously close to bigotry.

surbiton said:

It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Scrapheap_as_was said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I think YouGov will be back tomorrow night.

Been asked to partake in a VI poll.

UKIP again I hope just to take the mick?

Lib Dem, after all I am planning to vote Lib Dem in May.

Splitter!!

I'm voting tactically to ensure Dave remains PM post May.

Why not just vote for the Tory? All you're doing is maximising the chances of Nick "Tuition Fees" Clegg remaining DPM!

Scrapheap_as_was said:

So that's why we've got Vorm..... Hugo going for £25m....

I wonder to where.

foxinsoxuk said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

foxinsoxuk said:

@Justin 124

I think that you are right. The pressures on immigration are such that the countries the BOOers want to emulate (Australia, Canada, USA, Norway, Switzerland etc) have immigration rates and similar or higher per capita immigration, and similar social issues as we do. Take Montreal or Martin Place as examples...

I think UKIPs promises on immigration cannot be met, but as they are not going to have the opportunity to form a government they will never be exposed.

Australia and Canada have vast areas of country and actively encourage migration - though of course Australia only encourages what it perceives to be the right sort of migration based on what is good for its economy at the time. As an example for many years you could not emigrate to Australia if you were a Geologist as they had a surplus of qualified people in that profession.

Norway controls its migration very strictly and sets rather onerous conditions on the right to settle in the country (including 300 hours compulsory lessons in Norwegian language and culture followed by exams).

The important point is that these countries try, with greater or lesser success, to control migration and direct it so that it benefits the country as a whole. Something that is impossible whilst we remain a member of the EU.

But the actual numbers are very similar.

Australia gets about the same number of immigrants as us, so roughly 3 times the per-capita rate as the UK.

In Norway 14% of the population are immigrants or who have two parents who were immigrants. Apart from Swedes the main immigrant groups are Polish, Lithuanian, Somali and Pakistani.

Sounds more like they have a higher rate of immigration than us, and not an especially highly skilled one.

Both Australia and Norway have high unemployment and other social issues in immigrant communities much as we do. UKIP and the BOOers are selling snake oil cures for immigration and they know it.

Far better to have active programmes to integrate migrants with English lessons etc, I would also encourage EU migrants to take British citizenship so that they can involve themselves fully in our society.

TheScreamingEagles said:

I'm not sure what to make of this, as I'm opposed to the death penalty

A rapist and murderer is to be put to death in Belgium this week, despite Europe’s ban on the death penalty, after a court granted him the right to euthanasia.

Frank Van Den Bleeken, 52, is not physically ill but claims his “psychological suffering” is unbearable and that he would prefer to die than spend more of his life behind bars.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/11324579/Belgian-rapist-and-murderer-to-be-put-to-death-by-lethal-injection.html

foxinsoxuk said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

foxinsoxuk said:

But the actual numbers are very similar.

Australia gets about the same number of immigrants as us, so roughly 3 times the per-capita rate as the UK.

In Norway 14% of the population are immigrants or who have two parents who were immigrants. Apart from Swedes the main immigrant groups are Polish, Lithuanian, Somali and Pakistani.

Sounds more like they have a higher rate of immigration than us, and not an especially highly skilled one.

Both Australia and Norway have high unemployment and other social issues in immigrant communities much as we do. UKIP and the BOOers are selling snake oil cures for immigration and they know it.

Far better to have active programmes to integrate migrants with English lessons etc, I would also encourage EU migrants to take British citizenship so that they can involve themselves fully in our society.

Hardly comparable given that Australia is the 3rd least densely populated country in the world and Norway the 27th.

And of course you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot because Norway being in the EEA cannot control EU migration.

As I say I am not opposed to more migration if it is for the benefit of the country but you cannot even start to have that debate if you have no control over migration in the first place.

And As I have said before a system that says - as you have done in an earlier post this evening - that it would rather have a Pole than, for example, an Indian as an immigrant is straying dangerously close to bigotry.

My point is that no country in the world with a successful economy has stopped immigration in the way you are demanding. All comparable countries that you want us to copy have similar or higher immigration rates.

I am happy to feel part of a common European culture and am not surprised that Poles and other Eastern Europeans integrate so well, both in the past and in the present. We have a lot in common with our EU neighbours.

Flightpath said:

Yes
Switzerland and Norway both accept more EU migrants per capita than the UK.
In 2012 (according to Eurostat) gross EU immigration to Switzerland was 90,107. That is an inflow of 11.33 EU migrants per 1000 of its population. Gross EU migration to the UK was 157,554, ie a rate of 2.48 per 1000 of its population. Norway, in the EEA, had a rate of gross EU immigration of 7.38 EU migrants per 1000 of its population.
11.33
7.38
2.48
It makes you rather think that Farage should emigrate to Norway where he might gain more traction.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Off topic

Am I the only one who thinks Darts isn't a real sport and doesn't understand all the hype?

Flightpath said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

foxinsoxuk said:

But the actual numbers are very similar.

Australia gets about the same number of immigrants as us, so roughly 3 times the per-capita rate as the UK.

In Norway 14% of the population are immigrants or who have two parents who were immigrants. Apart from Swedes the main immigrant groups are Polish, Lithuanian, Somali and Pakistani.

Sounds more like they have a higher rate of immigration than us, and not an especially highly skilled one.

Both Australia and Norway have high unemployment and other social issues in immigrant communities much as we do. UKIP and the BOOers are selling snake oil cures for immigration and they know it.

Far better to have active programmes to integrate migrants with English lessons etc, I would also encourage EU migrants to take British citizenship so that they can involve themselves fully in our society.

Hardly comparable given that Australia is the 3rd least densely populated country in the world and Norway the 27th.

And of course you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot because Norway being in the EEA cannot control EU migration.

As I say I am not opposed to more migration if it is for the benefit of the country but you cannot even start to have that debate if you have no control over migration in the first place.

And As I have said before a system that says - as you have done in an earlier post this evening - that it would rather have a Pole than, for example, an Indian as an immigrant is straying dangerously close to bigotry.

Norway is all mountains and lakes. Last time I looked Australia was all desert and poisonous spiders. You really cannot face the truth can you.
No one is shooting anyone in the foot except you. If we want a trade deal with the EU we would have to accept the EU single market. And Norway is part of Schengen.
One major point about the EU trade deal with Canada is that it will promote free movement of labour. It is not just 'trade' it is about labour standards. Do you really think if we walk away from the EU we could do anything different? Both you and the wise foxinsox should take a look at Canadian immigration figures.

surbiton said:

Scott_P said:

surbiton said:

It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

Ed was asked if he wanted to join the Euro. His answer?

"Depends how long I am PM"

So, that's means "Yes". And how come you are the only person in the world who has interpreted that as an "Yes".

glw said:

surbiton said:

Scott_P said:

surbiton said:

It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

Ed was asked if he wanted to join the Euro. His answer?

"Depends how long I am PM"

So, that's means "Yes". And how come you are the only person in the world who has interpreted that as an "Yes".

If he was against it he'd rule it out, everybody who is actually against joining the Euro has no problem answering that question. That Ed quibbles pretty much confirms he'd be keen on it if it was palatable to the public.

MarkSenior said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

MarkSenior said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Scrapheap_as_was said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I think YouGov will be back tomorrow night.

Been asked to partake in a VI poll.

UKIP again I hope just to take the mick?

Lib Dem, after all I am planning to vote Lib Dem in May.

Splitter!!

I'm voting tactically to ensure Dave remains PM post May.

Why not just vote for the Tory? All you're doing is maximising the chances of Nick "Tuition Fees" Clegg remaining DPM!

It is a straight fight between Lab and the Lib Dems.

A Lib Dem MP is more likely to support a Con/LD coalition.

I think you're looking for any old excuse NOT to vote Tory!

Alanbrooke said:

Flightpath said:

Alanbrooke said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Alanbrooke said:

as a non-kipper Conservative on vote strike, I also think Cameron is pretty useless at politics. I suspect you;ll find I am not the only one.

The more widely shared that view is, the more incomprehensible it is that the Kippers and BOOers feel that they can't win unless he's on their side.

The truth, of course, is that the result of the EU referendum (if we ever get one, which depends on the 2015 GE result) will depend not a jot on David Cameron. We all know what he's going to say, we could probably even have a good stab at guessing the words in which he'll say it. He has, after all, been completely consistent all along. No-one is going to be persuaded one way or the other by what he says.

You seem to have a blind spot that anyone who doesn't see Cameron as a great PM is automatically someone who bangs on abour Europe. Europe is not really that high on my agenda.

I object to weak economnic management, an overblown state, the erosion of privacy. his inability to manage his party or keep his core voters on board simply reinforce the perception that he's struggling in thejob.

An 'overblown state' (?!?!?) One where the major criticism by the tory party's principle opponents is to complain that it plans to reduce spending as a part of GDP to levels of 1935?

Your analysis is hilarious.

As has been pointed out numerous times on this blog you are a vacuous twat, your posts have neither insight, logic nor wit. You are guano with a keyboard.

You now ask me to take Ed Miliband spin at face value. Says it all.

I shall now go back to normal state of ignoring your drivel, but you could do yourself a favour and try to post something sensible this year never too late to start there are still 361 days left.

foxinsoxuk said:

Australia now has a higher unemployment rate than us (6.4% vs 6%) and many of those getting visas are not in shortage areas (cooks and accountants are amongst the main recipients despite not being on the shortage list). Many who get in on a fruit picking visa reside in major cities. Their immigration policy is at least as dysfunctional as ours!

Incidentally Australia may be vast, but it is one of the most urbanised countries in the world. Those immigrants want to live in Sydney, not "Back of Bourke".

My preference for European immigrants is on the basis of integration and assimilation to British life. Past waves of European immigrants over the centuries have integrated well (whether Hugenot or Polish Army). The experience of other groups is much more varied. The test should be "Would you be happy with your child setting up house and family with a native Briton and living like they do?" Some non-European cultures will say "Yes" some will say "No". I would strongly favour the former.

NickPalmer said:

I see SeanT has been reflecting again on my (lack of) vigorous patriotism. Usually I read pulp fiction for relaxation (Game of Thrones is about my level), but for a change I'm reading the seriously riveting The Quest for a Moral Compass - The Global History of Ethics, by Kenan Malik. There's a passage on the Stoics that works for me -

'In his famous "Elements of Ethics", Hierocles imagines every individual as standing at the centre of a series of concentric circles. The first circle is the individual, next comes the immediate family, followed by the extended family, the local community, the country and finally the entire human race. Hirocles suggested that we should try to draw these circles together, constantly transferring them from outer to inner circles, to treat strangers and cousins and cousins as brothers, making all human beings part of your concern. The Stoics called this oikeisosis, a word that is almost untranslatable but means something like the process by which everything is made into your home...'Never in reply to what country you belong say that you are an Athenian or a Corinthian', Epictictus wrote, 'but that you are a citizen of the world. For why do you say you are an Athenian, and not that you just belong to the small nook into which you were born at birth?"

That's the stuff. It doesn't have anything to do with reservations about the Empire or the like, as Sean suggests, and clearly a British Government should be particularly concerned with Britain and not so much with Papua New Guinea, so I'm patriotic in the sense that I think that Britain's needs should be our primary focus - if we don't look after it, nobody will. I'm fond of Britain and I want to help it flourish. But increasingly when I travel it striks me that the differences from us in people in countries as varied as Vietnam and Peru are much less than we commonly imagine, and when we trumpet Britishness as something uniquely superior, we are building up a fundamentally unhelpful division.

MarkSenior said:

isam said:

glw said:

surbiton said:

Scott_P said:

surbiton said:

It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

Ed was asked if he wanted to join the Euro. His answer?

"Depends how long I am PM"

So, that's means "Yes". And how come you are the only person in the world who has interpreted that as an "Yes".

If he was against it he'd rule it out, everybody who is actually against joining the Euro has no problem answering that question. That Ed quibbles pretty much confirms he'd be keen on it if it was palatable to the public.

Seeing as most polls show the public want to leave the EU it takes some going to imagine joining the euro is palatable to them, and that Miliband would do it

Most polls show the majority of the public wanting to stay in the EU not leave

Richard_Tyndall said:

Oh and your staggering ignorance concerning the EU clearly extends to other parts of the world as well.

Total Land area of the UK is 24 million hectares.

Land area in use just for arable farming in Australia is 32 million hectares.
Land area for all forms of farming in Australia is 410 million hectares.

So Australia has 17 times more land in use for farming than the whole of the UK land area.

So much for deserts and poisonous spiders.

isam said:

No neither are Cameron or Clegg

MarkSenior said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

Charles said:

MarkSenior said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

Perfect excuse for the Tories not to reselect her as candidate.

Is she going to run for UKIP in Eastleigh?

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Scrapheap_as_was said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I think YouGov will be back tomorrow night.

Been asked to partake in a VI poll.

UKIP again I hope just to take the mick?

Lib Dem, after all I am planning to vote Lib Dem in May.

Splitter!!

I'm voting tactically to ensure Dave remains PM post May.

Why not just vote for the Tory? All you're doing is maximising the chances of Nick "Tuition Fees" Clegg remaining DPM!

It is a straight fight between Lab and the Lib Dems.

A Lib Dem MP is more likely to support a Con/LD coalition.

I think you're looking for any old excuse NOT to vote Tory!

RobD said:

Charles said:

MarkSenior said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

Perfect excuse for the Tories not to reselect her as candidate.

Is she going to run for UKIP in Eastleigh?

Should we all be feeling sorry for Tim??

RobD said:

Charles said:

RobD said:

Charles said:

MarkSenior said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

Perfect excuse for the Tories not to reselect her as candidate.

Is she going to run for UKIP in Eastleigh?

Should we all be feeling sorry for Tim??

*tries very hard to feel sorry for Tim*

Nah.

Bless you for trying!

RobD said:

Charles said:

RobD said:

Charles said:

RobD said:

Charles said:

MarkSenior said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

Perfect excuse for the Tories not to reselect her as candidate.

Is she going to run for UKIP in Eastleigh?

Should we all be feeling sorry for Tim??

*tries very hard to feel sorry for Tim*

Nah.

Bless you for trying!

Anything for you

You're not in SF week of the 10th, right?

Unfortunately not. Up in Seattle for a bit, then off to Chile later in the month!

Indigo said:

glw said:

isam said:

No neither are Cameron or Clegg

To a degree, but I think Miliband is probably about as Europhile as Clegg but keeps his views close to his chest, where as Cameron is a fair bit less Europhile than the two of them if not a BOOer.

If Cameron is BOOer he is trying very hard to hide it, which would be strange when the vast majority of his party are eurosceptic, most of his core vote are eurosceptic and probably the majority of the country are eurosceptic. If such was his view it would be electorally advantageous to shout about it and pull back a load of votes from UKIP. The fact that he doesn't, rather suggests that he isn't.

MarkSenior said:

isam said:

glw said:

surbiton said:

Scott_P said:

surbiton said:

It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

Ed was asked if he wanted to join the Euro. His answer?

"Depends how long I am PM"

So, that's means "Yes". And how come you are the only person in the world who has interpreted that as an "Yes".

If he was against it he'd rule it out, everybody who is actually against joining the Euro has no problem answering that question. That Ed quibbles pretty much confirms he'd be keen on it if it was palatable to the public.

Seeing as most polls show the public want to leave the EU it takes some going to imagine joining the euro is palatable to them, and that Miliband would do it

Most polls show the majority of the public wanting to stay in the EU not leave