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  • I'm not sure what to make of this, as I'm opposed to the death penalty

    A rapist and murderer is to be put to death in Belgium this week, despite Europe’s ban on the death penalty, after a court granted him the right to euthanasia.

    Frank Van Den Bleeken, 52, is not physically ill but claims his “psychological suffering” is unbearable and that he would prefer to die than spend more of his life behind bars.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/11324579/Belgian-rapist-and-murderer-to-be-put-to-death-by-lethal-injection.html

    I'm not sure what to make of it as I'm opposed to euthanasia.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    As for the Morning Star, had the headline writer been mainlining on a send up of Gordon Brown's hard man image?

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2010/apr/01/general-election-2010-gordon-brown
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    Sean_F said:

    No British government will join the Euro in the next Parliament, whatever the outcome of the election.

    That's not what Ed said
    When did Ed commit a future Labour government to joining the Euro?
    Scott has an habit of making things up as he goes along. It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    edited January 2015

    Off topic

    Am I the only one who thinks Darts isn't a real sport and doesn't understand all the hype?

    I never watch it but the mother in law is staying and loves it, I have to say the standard is fantastic.
  • I'm not sure what to make of this, as I'm opposed to the death penalty

    A rapist and murderer is to be put to death in Belgium this week, despite Europe’s ban on the death penalty, after a court granted him the right to euthanasia.

    Frank Van Den Bleeken, 52, is not physically ill but claims his “psychological suffering” is unbearable and that he would prefer to die than spend more of his life behind bars.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/11324579/Belgian-rapist-and-murderer-to-be-put-to-death-by-lethal-injection.html

    I'm not sure what to make of it as I'm opposed to euthanasia.
    I also have doubts about euthanasia as well.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,123
    edited January 2015

    I think YouGov will be back tomorrow night.

    Been asked to partake in a VI poll.

    UKIP again I hope just to take the mick?
    Lib Dem, after all I am planning to vote Lib Dem in May.
    Splitter!!
    I'm voting tactically to ensure Dave remains PM post May.
    Why not just vote for the Tory? All you're doing is maximising the chances of Nick "Tuition Fees" Clegg remaining DPM!
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012



    But the actual numbers are very similar.

    Australia gets about the same number of immigrants as us, so roughly 3 times the per-capita rate as the UK.

    In Norway 14% of the population are immigrants or who have two parents who were immigrants. Apart from Swedes the main immigrant groups are Polish, Lithuanian, Somali and Pakistani.

    Sounds more like they have a higher rate of immigration than us, and not an especially highly skilled one.

    Both Australia and Norway have high unemployment and other social issues in immigrant communities much as we do. UKIP and the BOOers are selling snake oil cures for immigration and they know it.

    Far better to have active programmes to integrate migrants with English lessons etc, I would also encourage EU migrants to take British citizenship so that they can involve themselves fully in our society.

    Hardly comparable given that Australia is the 3rd least densely populated country in the world and Norway the 27th.

    And of course you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot because Norway being in the EEA cannot control EU migration.

    As I say I am not opposed to more migration if it is for the benefit of the country but you cannot even start to have that debate if you have no control over migration in the first place.

    And As I have said before a system that says - as you have done in an earlier post this evening - that it would rather have a Pole than, for example, an Indian as an immigrant is straying dangerously close to bigotry.
    Norway is all mountains and lakes. Last time I looked Australia was all desert and poisonous spiders. You really cannot face the truth can you.
    No one is shooting anyone in the foot except you. If we want a trade deal with the EU we would have to accept the EU single market. And Norway is part of Schengen.
    One major point about the EU trade deal with Canada is that it will promote free movement of labour. It is not just 'trade' it is about labour standards. Do you really think if we walk away from the EU we could do anything different? Both you and the wise foxinsox should take a look at Canadian immigration figures.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548



    But the actual numbers are very similar.

    Australia gets about the same number of immigrants as us, so roughly 3 times the per-capita rate as the UK.

    In Norway 14% of the population are immigrants or who have two parents who were immigrants. Apart from Swedes the main immigrant groups are Polish, Lithuanian, Somali and Pakistani.

    Sounds more like they have a higher rate of immigration than us, and not an especially highly skilled one.

    Both Australia and Norway have high unemployment and other social issues in immigrant communities much as we do. UKIP and the BOOers are selling snake oil cures for immigration and they know it.

    Far better to have active programmes to integrate migrants with English lessons etc, I would also encourage EU migrants to take British citizenship so that they can involve themselves fully in our society.

    Hardly comparable given that Australia is the 3rd least densely populated country in the world and Norway the 27th.

    And of course you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot because Norway being in the EEA cannot control EU migration.

    As I say I am not opposed to more migration if it is for the benefit of the country but you cannot even start to have that debate if you have no control over migration in the first place.

    And As I have said before a system that says - as you have done in an earlier post this evening - that it would rather have a Pole than, for example, an Indian as an immigrant is straying dangerously close to bigotry.
    My point is that no country in the world with a successful economy has stopped immigration in the way you are demanding. All comparable countries that you want us to copy have similar or higher immigration rates.

    I am happy to feel part of a common European culture and am not surprised that Poles and other Eastern Europeans integrate so well, both in the past and in the present. We have a lot in common with our EU neighbours.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    surbiton said:

    It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

    Ed was asked if he wanted to join the Euro. His answer?

    "Depends how long I am PM"
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Scott_P said:

    surbiton said:

    It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

    Ed was asked if he wanted to join the Euro. His answer?

    "Depends how long I am PM"
    So, that's means "Yes". And how come you are the only person in the world who has interpreted that as an "Yes".
  • I think YouGov will be back tomorrow night.

    Been asked to partake in a VI poll.

    UKIP again I hope just to take the mick?
    Lib Dem, after all I am planning to vote Lib Dem in May.
    Splitter!!
    I'm voting tactically to ensure Dave remains PM post May.
    Why not just vote for the Tory? All you're doing is maximising the chances of Nick "Tuition Fees" Clegg remaining DPM!
    It is a straight fight between Lab and the Lib Dems.

    A Lib Dem MP is more likely to support a Con/LD coalition.
  • So that's why we've got Vorm..... Hugo going for £25m....

    I wonder to where.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,962
    edited January 2015

    So that's why we've got Vorm..... Hugo going for £25m....

    I wonder to where.

    Liverpool

    (I hope)
  • Ed Miliband will on Monday declare day one of Labour’s general election battle as he promises to run a campaign of “hope, not falsehood” that will see him holding weekly question-time sessions with voters.

    Well, that's already fallen apart, given that Labour opened their campaign with a poster based on fear and falsehood.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    @Justin 124

    I think that you are right. The pressures on immigration are such that the countries the BOOers want to emulate (Australia, Canada, USA, Norway, Switzerland etc) have immigration rates and similar or higher per capita immigration, and similar social issues as we do. Take Montreal or Martin Place as examples...

    I think UKIPs promises on immigration cannot be met, but as they are not going to have the opportunity to form a government they will never be exposed.

    Australia and Canada have vast areas of country and actively encourage migration - though of course Australia only encourages what it perceives to be the right sort of migration based on what is good for its economy at the time. As an example for many years you could not emigrate to Australia if you were a Geologist as they had a surplus of qualified people in that profession.

    Norway controls its migration very strictly and sets rather onerous conditions on the right to settle in the country (including 300 hours compulsory lessons in Norwegian language and culture followed by exams).

    The important point is that these countries try, with greater or lesser success, to control migration and direct it so that it benefits the country as a whole. Something that is impossible whilst we remain a member of the EU.
    But the actual numbers are very similar.

    Australia gets about the same number of immigrants as us, so roughly 3 times the per-capita rate as the UK.

    In Norway 14% of the population are immigrants or who have two parents who were immigrants. Apart from Swedes the main immigrant groups are Polish, Lithuanian, Somali and Pakistani.

    Sounds more like they have a higher rate of immigration than us, and not an especially highly skilled one.

    Both Australia and Norway have high unemployment and other social issues in immigrant communities much as we do. UKIP and the BOOers are selling snake oil cures for immigration and they know it.

    Far better to have active programmes to integrate migrants with English lessons etc, I would also encourage EU migrants to take British citizenship so that they can involve themselves fully in our society.
    Yes
    Switzerland and Norway both accept more EU migrants per capita than the UK.
    In 2012 (according to Eurostat) gross EU immigration to Switzerland was 90,107. That is an inflow of 11.33 EU migrants per 1000 of its population. Gross EU migration to the UK was 157,554, ie a rate of 2.48 per 1000 of its population. Norway, in the EEA, had a rate of gross EU immigration of 7.38 EU migrants per 1000 of its population.
    11.33
    7.38
    2.48
    It makes you rather think that Farage should emigrate to Norway where he might gain more traction.


  • My point is that no country in the world with a successful economy has stopped immigration in the way you are demanding. All comparable countries that you want us to copy have similar or higher immigration rates.

    I am happy to feel part of a common European culture and am not surprised that Poles and other Eastern Europeans integrate so well, both in the past and in the present. We have a lot in common with our EU neighbours.

    Not so. Australia very effectively controlled immigration to the levels they wanted. They continue to do so and make adjustments to their migration policy on an annual basis. They control it to the extent of deciding which skills sets they wish to import and which they wish to exclude. I fail to see what is so difficult or controversial about this

    And you are absolutely incorrect to claim I want to stop immigration. I have consistently said that what we need to do is control it, not stop it. We need immigration to work for the benefit of the existing population of the country - something I would contend it does not currently do.

    I find it staggering that you could claim that the best way to have a working immigration policy is to have a large section of that migration with no controls at all. Which is exactly what we have currently with our membership of the EU.

    Mind you I was also staggered to hear you say you would prefer a Pole to a Non-European migrant. I thought you were supposed to be one of us colour-blind protagonists. I am afraid the idea that a Pole has more cultural affinity to us than an Indian is verging on pure racism.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    I'm not sure what to make of this, as I'm opposed to the death penalty

    A rapist and murderer is to be put to death in Belgium this week, despite Europe’s ban on the death penalty, after a court granted him the right to euthanasia.

    Frank Van Den Bleeken, 52, is not physically ill but claims his “psychological suffering” is unbearable and that he would prefer to die than spend more of his life behind bars.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/11324579/Belgian-rapist-and-murderer-to-be-put-to-death-by-lethal-injection.html

    The Belgians have become very keen on euthanasia. They even euthanaise children. I could see this as a way of reintroducing capital punishment in the guise of upholding the right to die with dignity.

    Given that he wants to die, I think he should be made to live, in captivity.


  • But the actual numbers are very similar.

    Australia gets about the same number of immigrants as us, so roughly 3 times the per-capita rate as the UK.

    In Norway 14% of the population are immigrants or who have two parents who were immigrants. Apart from Swedes the main immigrant groups are Polish, Lithuanian, Somali and Pakistani.

    Sounds more like they have a higher rate of immigration than us, and not an especially highly skilled one.

    Both Australia and Norway have high unemployment and other social issues in immigrant communities much as we do. UKIP and the BOOers are selling snake oil cures for immigration and they know it.

    Far better to have active programmes to integrate migrants with English lessons etc, I would also encourage EU migrants to take British citizenship so that they can involve themselves fully in our society.

    Hardly comparable given that Australia is the 3rd least densely populated country in the world and Norway the 27th.

    And of course you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot because Norway being in the EEA cannot control EU migration.

    As I say I am not opposed to more migration if it is for the benefit of the country but you cannot even start to have that debate if you have no control over migration in the first place.

    And As I have said before a system that says - as you have done in an earlier post this evening - that it would rather have a Pole than, for example, an Indian as an immigrant is straying dangerously close to bigotry.
    Norway is all mountains and lakes. Last time I looked Australia was all desert and poisonous spiders. You really cannot face the truth can you.
    No one is shooting anyone in the foot except you. If we want a trade deal with the EU we would have to accept the EU single market. And Norway is part of Schengen.
    One major point about the EU trade deal with Canada is that it will promote free movement of labour. It is not just 'trade' it is about labour standards. Do you really think if we walk away from the EU we could do anything different? Both you and the wise foxinsox should take a look at Canadian immigration figures.

    If we had been in EFTA rather than the EU we could have had a free trade agreement with Canada 7 years ago. Without the free movement of labour (if that is what people had been worried about). As always the EU has held us back.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012



    But the actual numbers are very similar.

    Australia gets about the same number of immigrants as us, so roughly 3 times the per-capita rate as the UK.

    In Norway 14% of the population are immigrants or who have two parents who were immigrants. Apart from Swedes the main immigrant groups are Polish, Lithuanian, Somali and Pakistani.

    Sounds more like they have a higher rate of immigration than us, and not an especially highly skilled one.

    Both Australia and Norway have high unemployment and other social issues in immigrant communities much as we do. UKIP and the BOOers are selling snake oil cures for immigration and they know it.

    Far better to have active programmes to integrate migrants with English lessons etc, I would also encourage EU migrants to take British citizenship so that they can involve themselves fully in our society.

    Hardly comparable given that Australia is the 3rd least densely populated country in the world and Norway the 27th.

    And of course you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot because Norway being in the EEA cannot control EU migration.

    As I say I am not opposed to more migration if it is for the benefit of the country but you cannot even start to have that debate if you have no control over migration in the first place.

    And As I have said before a system that says - as you have done in an earlier post this evening - that it would rather have a Pole than, for example, an Indian as an immigrant is straying dangerously close to bigotry.
    My point is that no country in the world with a successful economy has stopped immigration in the way you are demanding. All comparable countries that you want us to copy have similar or higher immigration rates.

    I am happy to feel part of a common European culture and am not surprised that Poles and other Eastern Europeans integrate so well, both in the past and in the present. We have a lot in common with our EU neighbours.
    You make good points. Our own levels of immigration are still needlessly high because we must surely have at least (at least) half a million people who should be more than capable of filling the jobs that immigrants do. Instead they are parked on all sorts of benefits. That is our social and educational failure nurtured over 13 years of Labour misrule.
  • I'm not sure what to make of this, as I'm opposed to the death penalty

    A rapist and murderer is to be put to death in Belgium this week, despite Europe’s ban on the death penalty, after a court granted him the right to euthanasia.

    Frank Van Den Bleeken, 52, is not physically ill but claims his “psychological suffering” is unbearable and that he would prefer to die than spend more of his life behind bars.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/11324579/Belgian-rapist-and-murderer-to-be-put-to-death-by-lethal-injection.html

    Personally I would say that having been found guilty he loses the right to decide such things. The state should not be colluding in his suicide.

  • Yes
    Switzerland and Norway both accept more EU migrants per capita than the UK.
    In 2012 (according to Eurostat) gross EU immigration to Switzerland was 90,107. That is an inflow of 11.33 EU migrants per 1000 of its population. Gross EU migration to the UK was 157,554, ie a rate of 2.48 per 1000 of its population. Norway, in the EEA, had a rate of gross EU immigration of 7.38 EU migrants per 1000 of its population.
    11.33
    7.38
    2.48
    It makes you rather think that Farage should emigrate to Norway where he might gain more traction.

    Farage (although I disagree with him on this) has made clear he does not want us in the EEA so the comparison is incorrect.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    I'm not sure what to make of this, as I'm opposed to the death penalty

    A rapist and murderer is to be put to death in Belgium this week, despite Europe’s ban on the death penalty, after a court granted him the right to euthanasia.

    Frank Van Den Bleeken, 52, is not physically ill but claims his “psychological suffering” is unbearable and that he would prefer to die than spend more of his life behind bars.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/11324579/Belgian-rapist-and-murderer-to-be-put-to-death-by-lethal-injection.html

    The libraries in Belgian jails must be exceptionally bad. Judges must be especially stupid.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Off topic

    Am I the only one who thinks Darts isn't a real sport and doesn't understand all the hype?

    You are a bit parsimonious. You will be saying wrestling is fixed next.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118



    My point is that no country in the world with a successful economy has stopped immigration in the way you are demanding. All comparable countries that you want us to copy have similar or higher immigration rates.

    I am happy to feel part of a common European culture and am not surprised that Poles and other Eastern Europeans integrate so well, both in the past and in the present. We have a lot in common with our EU neighbours.

    Not so. Australia very effectively controlled immigration to the levels they wanted. They continue to do so and make adjustments to their migration policy on an annual basis. They control it to the extent of deciding which skills sets they wish to import and which they wish to exclude. I fail to see what is so difficult or controversial about this

    And you are absolutely incorrect to claim I want to stop immigration. I have consistently said that what we need to do is control it, not stop it. We need immigration to work for the benefit of the existing population of the country - something I would contend it does not currently do.

    I find it staggering that you could claim that the best way to have a working immigration policy is to have a large section of that migration with no controls at all. Which is exactly what we have currently with our membership of the EU.

    Mind you I was also staggered to hear you say you would prefer a Pole to a Non-European migrant. I thought you were supposed to be one of us colour-blind protagonists. I am afraid the idea that a Pole has more cultural affinity to us than an Indian is verging on pure racism.
    He is one of the easily offended crew who calls French people frogs... The PB moral contortionists


  • But the actual numbers are very similar.

    Australia gets about the same number of immigrants as us, so roughly 3 times the per-capita rate as the UK.

    In Norway 14% of the population are immigrants or who have two parents who were immigrants. Apart from Swedes the main immigrant groups are Polish, Lithuanian, Somali and Pakistani.

    Sounds more like they have a higher rate of immigration than us, and not an especially highly skilled one.

    Both Australia and Norway have high unemployment and other social issues in immigrant communities much as we do. UKIP and the BOOers are selling snake oil cures for immigration and they know it.

    Far better to have active programmes to integrate migrants with English lessons etc, I would also encourage EU migrants to take British citizenship so that they can involve themselves fully in our society.

    Hardly comparable given that Australia is the 3rd least densely populated country in the world and Norway the 27th.

    And of course you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot because Norway being in the EEA cannot control EU migration.

    As I say I am not opposed to more migration if it is for the benefit of the country but you cannot even start to have that debate if you have no control over migration in the first place.

    And As I have said before a system that says - as you have done in an earlier post this evening - that it would rather have a Pole than, for example, an Indian as an immigrant is straying dangerously close to bigotry.
    Norway is all mountains and lakes. Last time I looked Australia was all desert and poisonous spiders. You really cannot face the truth can you.
    No one is shooting anyone in the foot except you. If we want a trade deal with the EU we would have to accept the EU single market. And Norway is part of Schengen.
    One major point about the EU trade deal with Canada is that it will promote free movement of labour. It is not just 'trade' it is about labour standards. Do you really think if we walk away from the EU we could do anything different? Both you and the wise foxinsox should take a look at Canadian immigration figures.

    Oh and your staggering ignorance concerning the EU clearly extends to other parts of the world as well.

    Total Land area of the UK is 24 million hectares.

    Land area in use just for arable farming in Australia is 32 million hectares.
    Land area for all forms of farming in Australia is 410 million hectares.

    So Australia has 17 times more land in use for farming than the whole of the UK land area.

    So much for deserts and poisonous spiders.
  • I'm not sure what to make of this, as I'm opposed to the death penalty

    A rapist and murderer is to be put to death in Belgium this week, despite Europe’s ban on the death penalty, after a court granted him the right to euthanasia.

    Frank Van Den Bleeken, 52, is not physically ill but claims his “psychological suffering” is unbearable and that he would prefer to die than spend more of his life behind bars.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/11324579/Belgian-rapist-and-murderer-to-be-put-to-death-by-lethal-injection.html

    The libraries in Belgian jails must be exceptionally bad. Judges must be especially stupid.
    Maybe the Belgians have followed the oh so enlightened policies of the UK Government and banned prisoners from having books.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,955
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    surbiton said:

    It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

    Ed was asked if he wanted to join the Euro. His answer?

    "Depends how long I am PM"
    So, that's means "Yes". And how come you are the only person in the world who has interpreted that as an "Yes".
    If he was against it he'd rule it out, everybody who is actually against joining the Euro has no problem answering that question. That Ed quibbles pretty much confirms he'd be keen on it if it was palatable to the public.
  • I think YouGov will be back tomorrow night.

    Been asked to partake in a VI poll.

    UKIP again I hope just to take the mick?
    Lib Dem, after all I am planning to vote Lib Dem in May.
    Splitter!!
    I'm voting tactically to ensure Dave remains PM post May.
    Why not just vote for the Tory? All you're doing is maximising the chances of Nick "Tuition Fees" Clegg remaining DPM!
    It is a straight fight between Lab and the Lib Dems.

    A Lib Dem MP is more likely to support a Con/LD coalition.
    I think you're looking for any old excuse NOT to vote Tory!
  • Someone please tell me this is a spoof

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6ionuAIgAIPOsF.png
  • I think YouGov will be back tomorrow night.

    Been asked to partake in a VI poll.

    UKIP again I hope just to take the mick?
    Lib Dem, after all I am planning to vote Lib Dem in May.
    Splitter!!
    I'm voting tactically to ensure Dave remains PM post May.
    Why not just vote for the Tory? All you're doing is maximising the chances of Nick "Tuition Fees" Clegg remaining DPM!
    It is a straight fight between Lab and the Lib Dems.

    A Lib Dem MP is more likely to support a Con/LD coalition.
    I think you're looking for any old excuse NOT to vote Tory!
    I did think about re-registering myself as living in central Manchester, so I could vote Tory.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548



    My point is that no country in the world with a successful economy has stopped immigration in the way you are demanding. All comparable countries that you want us to copy have similar or higher immigration rates.

    I am happy to feel part of a common European culture and am not surprised that Poles and other Eastern Europeans integrate so well, both in the past and in the present. We have a lot in common with our EU neighbours.

    Not so. Australia very effectively controlled immigration to the levels they wanted. They continue to do so and make adjustments to their migration policy on an annual basis. They control it to the extent of deciding which skills sets they wish to import and which they wish to exclude. I fail to see what is so difficult or controversial about this

    And you are absolutely incorrect to claim I want to stop immigration. I have consistently said that what we need to do is control it, not stop it. We need immigration to work for the benefit of the existing population of the country - something I would contend it does not currently do.

    I find it staggering that you could claim that the best way to have a working immigration policy is to have a large section of that migration with no controls at all. Which is exactly what we have currently with our membership of the EU.

    Mind you I was also staggered to hear you say you would prefer a Pole to a Non-European migrant. I thought you were supposed to be one of us colour-blind protagonists. I am afraid the idea that a Pole has more cultural affinity to us than an Indian is verging on pure racism.
    Australia now has a higher unemployment rate than us (6.4% vs 6%) and many of those getting visas are not in shortage areas (cooks and accountants are amongst the main recipients despite not being on the shortage list). Many who get in on a fruit picking visa reside in major cities. Their immigration policy is at least as dysfunctional as ours!

    Incidentally Australia may be vast, but it is one of the most urbanised countries in the world. Those immigrants want to live in Sydney, not "Back of Bourke".

    My preference for European immigrants is on the basis of integration and assimilation to British life. Past waves of European immigrants over the centuries have integrated well (whether Hugenot or Polish Army). The experience of other groups is much more varied. The test should be "Would you be happy with your child setting up house and family with a native Briton and living like they do?" Some non-European cultures will say "Yes" some will say "No". I would strongly favour the former.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    surbiton said:

    It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

    Ed was asked if he wanted to join the Euro. His answer?

    "Depends how long I am PM"
    So, that's means "Yes". And how come you are the only person in the world who has interpreted that as an "Yes".
    If he was against it he'd rule it out, everybody who is actually against joining the Euro has no problem answering that question. That Ed quibbles pretty much confirms he'd be keen on it if it was palatable to the public.
    Seeing as most polls show the public want to leave the EU it takes some going to imagine joining the euro is palatable to them, and that Miliband would do it
  • Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    LOL, maybe time to disinter all those comments made by UKIP supporters about her at the time of the by-election!
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Somewhere out there tim is having a right old chuckle to himself. I look forward to the reaction from her stalwart Tory supporters on here.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,962
    edited January 2015

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Not doubting you, but do you have a link?

    I know she was removed from the Tory candidates list last year for not campaigning in Rochester
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Can anyone reliable confirm this?
    Bonus points for a link?
    Would be a shame - I quite like her style.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,962
    edited January 2015
    Maria Hutchings defecting from the Tories to UKIP would increase the average IQ of both parties.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    I don't think so
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    isam said:

    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    surbiton said:

    It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

    Ed was asked if he wanted to join the Euro. His answer?

    "Depends how long I am PM"
    So, that's means "Yes". And how come you are the only person in the world who has interpreted that as an "Yes".
    If he was against it he'd rule it out, everybody who is actually against joining the Euro has no problem answering that question. That Ed quibbles pretty much confirms he'd be keen on it if it was palatable to the public.
    Seeing as most polls show the public want to leave the EU it takes some going to imagine joining the euro is palatable to them, and that Miliband would do it
    Most polls show the majority of the public wanting to stay in the EU not leave
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928

    I think YouGov will be back tomorrow night.

    Been asked to partake in a VI poll.

    UKIP again I hope just to take the mick?
    Lib Dem, after all I am planning to vote Lib Dem in May.
    Splitter!!
    I'm voting tactically to ensure Dave remains PM post May.
    Why not just vote for the Tory? All you're doing is maximising the chances of Nick "Tuition Fees" Clegg remaining DPM!
    It is a straight fight between Lab and the Lib Dems.

    A Lib Dem MP is more likely to support a Con/LD coalition.
    I think you're looking for any old excuse NOT to vote Tory!
    It makes perfect sense for Tories to vote for Clegg in Hallam. Just as it makes sense for left wingers to vote Tory in Yeovil.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Not doubting you, but do you have a link?

    I know she was removed from the Tory candidates list last year for not campaigning in Rochester
    Apparently it is her own tweets on her Twatter sorry Twitter account
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012


    as a non-kipper Conservative on vote strike, I also think Cameron is pretty useless at politics. I suspect you;ll find I am not the only one.

    The more widely shared that view is, the more incomprehensible it is that the Kippers and BOOers feel that they can't win unless he's on their side.

    The truth, of course, is that the result of the EU referendum (if we ever get one, which depends on the 2015 GE result) will depend not a jot on David Cameron. We all know what he's going to say, we could probably even have a good stab at guessing the words in which he'll say it. He has, after all, been completely consistent all along. No-one is going to be persuaded one way or the other by what he says.
    You seem to have a blind spot that anyone who doesn't see Cameron as a great PM is automatically someone who bangs on abour Europe. Europe is not really that high on my agenda.

    I object to weak economnic management, an overblown state, the erosion of privacy. his inability to manage his party or keep his core voters on board simply reinforce the perception that he's struggling in thejob.
    An 'overblown state' (?!?!?) One where the major criticism by the tory party's principle opponents is to complain that it plans to reduce spending as a part of GDP to levels of 1935?

    Your analysis is hilarious.
    As has been pointed out numerous times on this blog you are a vacuous twat, your posts have neither insight, logic nor wit. You are guano with a keyboard.

    You now ask me to take Ed Miliband spin at face value. Says it all.

    I shall now go back to normal state of ignoring your drivel, but you could do yourself a favour and try to post something sensible this year never too late to start there are still 361 days left.
    There is only one drivelling vacuous twat here and its you. A hysteric with no argument.
    The tory party is busy making the state smaller and is being criticised for it by its opponents.
    Tory plans call for over a million less local and central government workers. Hundreds of thousands have already gone. This is hardly likely to encourage them to vote tory, but they have gone.
    Only in Nov the PASC praised the progress Maude has made in terms of reducing the costs of 'arm’s length government'. It also pointed to improvements in how government departments hold their arm’s length bodies to account and the fact that government now publishes much more reliable information on numbers and costs of ALBs. The govt have saved billions in reforming quangos.

    But to the nutjobs the tories are peddling an 'overblown' state.
    You are totally pathetic
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,567
    I see SeanT has been reflecting again on my (lack of) vigorous patriotism. Usually I read pulp fiction for relaxation (Game of Thrones is about my level), but for a change I'm reading the seriously riveting The Quest for a Moral Compass - The Global History of Ethics, by Kenan Malik. There's a passage on the Stoics that works for me -

    'In his famous "Elements of Ethics", Hierocles imagines every individual as standing at the centre of a series of concentric circles. The first circle is the individual, next comes the immediate family, followed by the extended family, the local community, the country and finally the entire human race. Hirocles suggested that we should try to draw these circles together, constantly transferring them from outer to inner circles, to treat strangers and cousins and cousins as brothers, making all human beings part of your concern. The Stoics called this oikeisosis, a word that is almost untranslatable but means something like the process by which everything is made into your home...'Never in reply to what country you belong say that you are an Athenian or a Corinthian', Epictictus wrote, 'but that you are a citizen of the world. For why do you say you are an Athenian, and not that you just belong to the small nook into which you were born at birth?"

    That's the stuff. It doesn't have anything to do with reservations about the Empire or the like, as Sean suggests, and clearly a British Government should be particularly concerned with Britain and not so much with Papua New Guinea, so I'm patriotic in the sense that I think that Britain's needs should be our primary focus - if we don't look after it, nobody will. I'm fond of Britain and I want to help it flourish. But increasingly when I travel it striks me that the differences from us in people in countries as varied as Vietnam and Peru are much less than we commonly imagine, and when we trumpet Britishness as something uniquely superior, we are building up a fundamentally unhelpful division.

  • Australia now has a higher unemployment rate than us (6.4% vs 6%) and many of those getting visas are not in shortage areas (cooks and accountants are amongst the main recipients despite not being on the shortage list). Many who get in on a fruit picking visa reside in major cities. Their immigration policy is at least as dysfunctional as ours!

    Incidentally Australia may be vast, but it is one of the most urbanised countries in the world. Those immigrants want to live in Sydney, not "Back of Bourke".

    My preference for European immigrants is on the basis of integration and assimilation to British life. Past waves of European immigrants over the centuries have integrated well (whether Hugenot or Polish Army). The experience of other groups is much more varied. The test should be "Would you be happy with your child setting up house and family with a native Briton and living like they do?" Some non-European cultures will say "Yes" some will say "No". I would strongly favour the former.

    I would suggest that basing a whole immigration policy on the bigotries of a very few cultures who might not want to integrate is extremely suspect. In spite of having grown up in a town with a very large and well integrated Polish population (pre-EU accession) I feel no more affinity to them than I do to my Indian or Asian friends. Certainly in general I find citizens of Commonwealth countries who are not overly religious (and that applies to the vast majority of immigrants I know) are better at integrating into British society and culture than EU migrants. After all, significant parts of what we now consider to be British culture are derived from Commonwealth countries.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,955
    isam said:

    Seeing as most polls show the public want to leave the EU it takes some going to imagine joining the euro is palatable to them, and that Miliband would do it

    Oh I certainly don't think Ed could sell it to the public, but I pretty sure he's keen on the whole European project. I can't recall him ever saying anything substantially critical of the EU, he might have voiced some of the usual platitudes at election time about reform and so on, but he's not anti-EU in the way a whole swathe of the right and some on the left instinctively are.

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Maria Hutchings
    @MariaHutchings
    I am not defecting OR aligning with any party. Just observing. Am bog standard citizen who's just watched Marr &Murnahan & made observation
  • Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Not doubting you, but do you have a link?

    I know she was removed from the Tory candidates list last year for not campaigning in Rochester
    Apparently it is her own tweets on her Twatter sorry Twitter account
    From her twitter feed

    https://twitter.com/MariaHutchings/status/551689404419702784
  • I see SeanT has been reflecting again on my (lack of) vigorous patriotism. Usually I read pulp fiction for relaxation (Game of Thrones is about my level), but for a change I'm reading the seriously riveting The Quest for a Moral Compass - The Global History of Ethics, by Kenan Malik. There's a passage on the Stoics that works for me -

    'In his famous "Elements of Ethics", Hierocles imagines every individual as standing at the centre of a series of concentric circles. The first circle is the individual, next comes the immediate family, followed by the extended family, the local community, the country and finally the entire human race. Hirocles suggested that we should try to draw these circles together, constantly transferring them from outer to inner circles, to treat strangers and cousins and cousins as brothers, making all human beings part of your concern. The Stoics called this oikeisosis, a word that is almost untranslatable but means something like the process by which everything is made into your home...'Never in reply to what country you belong say that you are an Athenian or a Corinthian', Epictictus wrote, 'but that you are a citizen of the world. For why do you say you are an Athenian, and not that you just belong to the small nook into which you were born at birth?"

    That's the stuff. It doesn't have anything to do with reservations about the Empire or the like, as Sean suggests, and clearly a British Government should be particularly concerned with Britain and not so much with Papua New Guinea, so I'm patriotic in the sense that I think that Britain's needs should be our primary focus - if we don't look after it, nobody will. I'm fond of Britain and I want to help it flourish. But increasingly when I travel it striks me that the differences from us in people in countries as varied as Vietnam and Peru are much less than we commonly imagine, and when we trumpet Britishness as something uniquely superior, we are building up a fundamentally unhelpful division.

    Not exactly the greatest quote you could have used Nick, given that the Greeks considered that effectively Greece was the world and everyone else was 'barbaros' or a barbarian, derived from someone who babbled (Did not speak Greek).

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    So the reason nobody has "mentioned it on here" yet is because it is a figment of your deranged imagination Senior you utter sheep's placenta.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    surbiton said:

    It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

    Ed was asked if he wanted to join the Euro. His answer?

    "Depends how long I am PM"
    So, that's means "Yes". And how come you are the only person in the world who has interpreted that as an "Yes".
    If he was against it he'd rule it out, everybody who is actually against joining the Euro has no problem answering that question. That Ed quibbles pretty much confirms he'd be keen on it if it was palatable to the public.
    Seeing as most polls show the public want to leave the EU it takes some going to imagine joining the euro is palatable to them, and that Miliband would do it
    Most polls show the majority of the public wanting to stay in the EU not leave
    3 out of last 12 say stay

    How's your maths?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    glw said:

    isam said:

    Seeing as most polls show the public want to leave the EU it takes some going to imagine joining the euro is palatable to them, and that Miliband would do it

    Oh I certainly don't think Ed could sell it to the public, but I pretty sure he's keen on the whole European project. I can't recall him ever saying anything substantially critical of the EU, he might have voiced some of the usual platitudes at election time about reform and so on, but he's not anti-EU in the way a whole swathe of the right and some on the left instinctively are.

    No neither are Cameron or Clegg
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758


    Oh and your staggering ignorance concerning the EU clearly extends to other parts of the world as well.

    Total Land area of the UK is 24 million hectares.

    Land area in use just for arable farming in Australia is 32 million hectares.
    Land area for all forms of farming in Australia is 410 million hectares.

    So Australia has 17 times more land in use for farming than the whole of the UK land area.

    So much for deserts and poisonous spiders.

    A large part of the 410m acres are for ranching: using land that is little more than desert and more suitable for spiders than human habitation
  • Charles said:


    Oh and your staggering ignorance concerning the EU clearly extends to other parts of the world as well.

    Total Land area of the UK is 24 million hectares.

    Land area in use just for arable farming in Australia is 32 million hectares.
    Land area for all forms of farming in Australia is 410 million hectares.

    So Australia has 17 times more land in use for farming than the whole of the UK land area.

    So much for deserts and poisonous spiders.

    A large part of the 410m acres are for ranching: using land that is little more than desert and more suitable for spiders than human habitation
    Still puts the lie to Flightpath's idiotic claims about Australia being all desert given that they have more land under arable farming than the total land area of the UK.

    His ignorance on just about everything is staggering.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,955
    isam said:

    No neither are Cameron or Clegg

    To a degree, but I think Miliband is probably about as Europhile as Clegg but keeps his views close to his chest, where as Cameron is a fair bit less Europhile than the two of them if not a BOOer.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Danny565 said:

    On the EU referendum:- I suspect we're going to get one no matter what happens in the election. The Lib Dems are probably going to commit themselves to one before long (perhaps even before the election), so one would happen in a Lib-Lab coalition in a hung parliament. In fact, even if Labour scrape together a majority, there's probably enough Kate Hoeys and Frank Fields on the Labour backbenches to force one through even then.

    Most parties are committed to EU referendums most of the time in most circumstances, but there's an important exception: Circumstances they think will actually come about, after elections they think they'll actually win.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Perfect excuse for the Tories not to reselect her as candidate.

    Is she going to run for UKIP in Eastleigh?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,567


    Not exactly the greatest quote you could have used Nick, given that the Greeks considered that effectively Greece was the world and everyone else was 'barbaros' or a barbarian, derived from someone who babbled (Did not speak Greek).

    Ah well! Perhpas Hierocles was an exception... :-)

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,036
    Charles said:

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Perfect excuse for the Tories not to reselect her as candidate.

    Is she going to run for UKIP in Eastleigh?
    Should we all be feeling sorry for Tim??
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    edited January 2015
    GeoffM said:

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    So the reason nobody has "mentioned it on here" yet is because it is a figment of your deranged imagination Senior you utter sheep's placenta.
    If she now describes herself as non aligned she has certainly defected from the Conservatives . even an imbecile like yourself would realise that .
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,036

    I think YouGov will be back tomorrow night.

    Been asked to partake in a VI poll.

    UKIP again I hope just to take the mick?
    Lib Dem, after all I am planning to vote Lib Dem in May.
    Splitter!!
    I'm voting tactically to ensure Dave remains PM post May.
    Why not just vote for the Tory? All you're doing is maximising the chances of Nick "Tuition Fees" Clegg remaining DPM!
    It is a straight fight between Lab and the Lib Dems.

    A Lib Dem MP is more likely to support a Con/LD coalition.
    I think you're looking for any old excuse NOT to vote Tory!
    TSE is waiting for the new dry-but-not-obsessed-by-Europe-and-the-gays Tory party to field a candidate in his constituency ;)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,123
    edited January 2015

    GeoffM said:

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    So the reason nobody has "mentioned it on here" yet is because it is a figment of your deranged imagination Senior you utter sheep's placenta.
    If she now describes herself as non aligned she has certainly defected from the Conservatives . even an imbecile like yourself would realise that .
    But you stated that she defected to UKIP:
    "Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP"

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Perfect excuse for the Tories not to reselect her as candidate.

    Is she going to run for UKIP in Eastleigh?
    Should we all be feeling sorry for Tim??
    *tries very hard to feel sorry for Tim*

    Nah.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,036
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Perfect excuse for the Tories not to reselect her as candidate.

    Is she going to run for UKIP in Eastleigh?
    Should we all be feeling sorry for Tim??
    *tries very hard to feel sorry for Tim*

    Nah.
    Bless you for trying!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Perfect excuse for the Tories not to reselect her as candidate.

    Is she going to run for UKIP in Eastleigh?
    Should we all be feeling sorry for Tim??
    *tries very hard to feel sorry for Tim*

    Nah.
    Bless you for trying!
    Anything for you ;)

    You're not in SF week of the 10th, right?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,036
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Perfect excuse for the Tories not to reselect her as candidate.

    Is she going to run for UKIP in Eastleigh?
    Should we all be feeling sorry for Tim??
    *tries very hard to feel sorry for Tim*

    Nah.
    Bless you for trying!
    Anything for you ;)

    You're not in SF week of the 10th, right?
    Unfortunately not. Up in Seattle for a bit, then off to Chile later in the month!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but Maria Hutchings Conservative Eastleigh by election candidate has defected to UKIP

    Perfect excuse for the Tories not to reselect her as candidate.

    Is she going to run for UKIP in Eastleigh?
    Should we all be feeling sorry for Tim??
    *tries very hard to feel sorry for Tim*

    Nah.
    Bless you for trying!
    Anything for you ;)

    You're not in SF week of the 10th, right?
    Unfortunately not. Up in Seattle for a bit, then off to Chile later in the month!
    I'll be back next year in the second week of January if you are around then.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    glw said:

    isam said:

    No neither are Cameron or Clegg

    To a degree, but I think Miliband is probably about as Europhile as Clegg but keeps his views close to his chest, where as Cameron is a fair bit less Europhile than the two of them if not a BOOer.
    If Cameron is BOOer he is trying very hard to hide it, which would be strange when the vast majority of his party are eurosceptic, most of his core vote are eurosceptic and probably the majority of the country are eurosceptic. If such was his view it would be electorally advantageous to shout about it and pull back a load of votes from UKIP. The fact that he doesn't, rather suggests that he isn't.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Indigo said:

    glw said:

    isam said:

    No neither are Cameron or Clegg

    To a degree, but I think Miliband is probably about as Europhile as Clegg but keeps his views close to his chest, where as Cameron is a fair bit less Europhile than the two of them if not a BOOer.
    If Cameron is BOOer he is trying very hard to hide it, which would be strange when the vast majority of his party are eurosceptic, most of his core vote are eurosceptic and probably the majority of the country are eurosceptic. If such was his view it would be electorally advantageous to shout about it and pull back a load of votes from UKIP. The fact that he doesn't, rather suggests that he isn't.

    He's not a BOOer: he's sceptical about the loss of sovereignty, but sees the economic advantages and the importance of cooperation in certain areas.

    Definitely a Eurosceptic, but not a BOOer.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Charles said:


    Oh and your staggering ignorance concerning the EU clearly extends to other parts of the world as well.

    Total Land area of the UK is 24 million hectares.

    Land area in use just for arable farming in Australia is 32 million hectares.
    Land area for all forms of farming in Australia is 410 million hectares.

    So Australia has 17 times more land in use for farming than the whole of the UK land area.

    So much for deserts and poisonous spiders.

    A large part of the 410m acres are for ranching: using land that is little more than desert and more suitable for spiders than human habitation
    His ignorance on just about everything is staggering.
    That's a tad uncharitable.

    He's on the ball when it comes to 'the line to take' from Russia Today......

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    isam said:

    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    surbiton said:

    It was Brown [ and Balls ] who effectively vetoed us going into the Euro with his 5 tests which could not be met !

    Ed was asked if he wanted to join the Euro. His answer?

    "Depends how long I am PM"
    So, that's means "Yes". And how come you are the only person in the world who has interpreted that as an "Yes".
    If he was against it he'd rule it out, everybody who is actually against joining the Euro has no problem answering that question. That Ed quibbles pretty much confirms he'd be keen on it if it was palatable to the public.
    Seeing as most polls show the public want to leave the EU it takes some going to imagine joining the euro is palatable to them, and that Miliband would do it
    Most polls show the majority of the public wanting to stay in the EU not leave
    No. A close plurality, but not a 'majority' - and a majority want vote on it.....

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015
    .
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    In the Lib/Con marginals,there may be potential for an anti-LibDem vote to triumph.With the Orange bookers no different to Tories, and bound to throw their hat in with them anyway,Labour voters could easily be persuaded to vote Tory to defeat the LibDem.This is how the Greek people destroyed Pasok.It did not matter if ND-Tories-win the seat because there is no difference between Orange bookers and Tories.Laws is a goner with this approach.Alexander could well fall by the opposition coalescing across the board supporting the SNP to get the evil LibDems out.The ones who survive will be exceptional,like Norman Baker and,probably,Julian Huppert and one or two who did not support the H&SCA,whilst Clegg and Alexander banged the table in joy when it passed.They will both suffer a huge political price for their mendacity.
This discussion has been closed.