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How the general election would have looked under different voting systems – politicalbetting.com

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  • Leon said:

    On the strictest definition, only one postwar parliament has ever gone the full term. John Major.

    I would include 2010-2015 since the FTPA didn't allow any alternative date.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,520

    I have said the same about Biden's aggressive economic policies - which also included getting biddable countries to increase Corporation Tax. Oddly, PB's Biden defenders (of which there are many) take the rather dickless stance that that's OK for the gaffer but we shouldn't do the same in case we offend someone. Or something.
    The US has far more leeway on the public finances than we do.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    Phil said:

    The massed waves of regretful detransitioners we were promised by the GCs don’t seem to have appeared, despite multiple law firms trolling for clients in the press. A small number of cases seems probable though?

    (To put numbers on these: IIRC the press was claimed that there were 1000s of regretful post teenage detransitioners out there. So far there seem to be 10s, maybe? Happy to be proven wrong, as usual.)
    1. It’s hard to define “regret”
    2. Conjuring counterfactuals with human emotions is basically impossible
    3. “First, do no harm” is still a good rule, as is “never operate on a healthy organ”

    The fact is many thousands of kids have had life-altering drugs and surgery that harmed them, and which were physiologically unnecessary

    That’s bad and wrong
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,826
    Andy_JS said:

    This is the biggest lot of nonsense you will ever read.

    "73.7% of votes did not directly affect the outcome in 2024 –21.2 million votes in total."

    Every vote was important in deciding whether or not a constituency was marginal or not. We see this all the time. Seats which used to be safe are now marginal, because voters decided they ought to be, and vice versa.

    Yes. It's like saying that the only vote that ever counts in an election is the extra one in a vote won by a single vote, and all the others are wasted. In some sort of rationalist sense this is true. But it is not ttrue about politics.

    If (I think they won't) Reform sweep the board next time, all those pent up thousands of 'wasted' votes in Bootle and South Holland in 2024 will form part of the causation process by which it occurred.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295

    I would include 2010-2015 since the FTPA didn't allow any alternative date.
    I exclude it BECAUSE of the FTPA. The argument is about how and why UK governments so rarely go the full term. The 2010-15 parliament didn’t have any choice
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,520
    algarkirk said:

    Yes. It's like saying that the only vote that ever counts in an election is the extra one in a vote won by a single vote, and all the others are wasted. In some sort of rationalist sense this is true. But it is not ttrue about politics.

    If (I think they won't) Reform sweep the board next time, all those pent up thousands of 'wasted' votes in Bootle and South Holland in 2024 will form part of the causation process by which it occurred.
    Yes, reductively every vote is a wasted one because the overall outcome would be the same without it.
  • Leon said:

    Looking at my own data, if it’s right, and if we define “going the full term” as closer than, say, two months - eight weeks - of the legal maximum term, it looks like only 3 parliaments out of 21 since the war have gone “full term”. 2010 doesn’t count coz of the FTPA
    Everyone who went early by choice (as Callaghan got VONCd) thought they'd win though (including Wilson in 70 and Heath in 74, who both lost) or had a pretty good shot of winning (Major 92). Sunak is the only PM who called an election before he needed to who knew he would lose.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,967
    Leon said:

    I exclude it BECAUSE of the FTPA. The argument is about how and why UK governments so rarely go the full term. The 2010-15 parliament didn’t have any choice
    What you seem to be missing is that Starmer will call the election early if it’s in his party’s interest, but if your (probably absurd) prediction that Farage is heading for a win, he will wait and this parliament will go the full term.
  • ...

    I am guessing anything earlier than Euro6 and they pay double bubble. With £3m plus estates they can afford it.
    They will probably write it off as part of the business
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,967
    algarkirk said:

    Yes. It's like saying that the only vote that ever counts in an election is the extra one in a vote won by a single vote, and all the others are wasted. In some sort of rationalist sense this is true. But it is not ttrue about politics.

    No. If a candidate wins by one vote, every single vote for him or her has counted since if any one of those voters had stayed on the sofa, they wouldn’t have won (barring the coin toss that follows a tie).

    The problem with our voting system is that large numbers of people can vote for a party across the country, that has a distinct viewpoint and significant but broadly-spread appeal, and come out of the election with next to no representation at all.
  • Does the Irn Bru advert count?
    I've no idea what it is. The advert, not Irn Bru, which for some reason I did like in my youth but I suspect would horrify my palate now.

    However on the basis the advert is bound to be far shorter than the listed films, sure, it'll do.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,311
    MattW said:

    The Health Secretary Statement is making a statement on Puberty Blockers on in the Commons.

    An indefinite ban is being imposed.

    'These should never have been used until after enough evidence being available' sounds like a potential large incoming compensation bill, if the NHS or NHS staff were involved.

    If the chances of winning substantial compensation become significantly higher, more people might suddenly decide their formerly desirable transition was actually an injury after all.

    Good afternoon, everybody.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    IanB2 said:

    What you seem to be missing is that Starmer will call the election early if it’s in his party’s interest, but if your (probably absurd) prediction that Farage is heading for a win, he will wait and this parliament will go the full term.
    No, my argument was that UK parliaments almost never go the full term, for a myriad of reasons perhaps overlying one psychological law: a fear of going right to the end

    I’ve adduced the evidence; only Major went the full term; I am therefore correct
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    kinabalu said:

    The US has far more leeway on the public finances than we do.
    They still have to pay their debts eventually. The US economy is strong but remeber they've got a massive current account deficit and national debt keeps rising.
  • IanB2 said:

    What you seem to be missing is that Starmer will call the election early if it’s in his party’s interest, but if your (probably absurd) prediction that Farage is heading for a win, he will wait and this parliament will go the full term.
    If Farage is heading for victory Lab, LD, Greens, Nats and half the Tory Party should seek emergency legislation to extend fixed term to 10 years

    Take them on head on.

    We cannot allow Fascists to take over the UK to destroy the freedom our ancestors fought so hard to protect.

    The fascists can beat as much as they like if all none Fascist Parties created a Government of National Unity in the face of evil.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,951
    Leon said:

    I’ve got a feeling the Tories will bin her. It’s a shame. I like her. I wished her well. But the early signs aren’t great. She’s got maybe 18-20 months to shape up

    One advantage the Tories have is that everyone knows they are brutal with leaders. It won’t be a shock or particularly damaging if they defenestrate Kemi
    Feel much the same. She has a problem coming up in May next year when the Tories will be defending council seats won when Boris was still on a high and before the LibDem revival. May cause a wobble or two.

    But who would replace her? Short of by-elections bringing in contenders the only plausible candidate would be Cleverly. NOT Jenrick!

    I think it's far too early to write her off. She's not IDS. There is definitely a bit of stardust about her even if its shining dimly just now.
  • IanB2 said:

    What you seem to be missing is that Starmer will call the election early if it’s in his party’s interest, but if your (probably absurd) prediction that Farage is heading for a win, he will wait and this parliament will go the full term.
    I can only guess Leon thinks that Starmer might make a similar calculation Rishi did and think that going the full-term might be even worse and the party could cling as the main opposition by going now (possibly thinking Reform will shit bed the bed in government, collapse, and Labour will be back in the office within a couple of years).
    I think it's more likely Starmer would resign though and give someone else the remaining year to turn things round. The Tories didn't have the option because they'd already had two leadership elections by the time Sunak called the GE.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534
    Leon said:

    I’ve got a feeling the Tories will bin her. It’s a shame. I like her. I wished her well. But the early signs aren’t great. She’s got maybe 18-20 months to shape up

    One advantage the Tories have is that everyone knows they are brutal with leaders. It won’t be a shock or particularly damaging if they defenestrate Kemi
    She will survive. Kemi won the Tory MPs and members votes and already the Conservatives lead some polls which would have been unbelievable in July
  • If Farage is heading for victory Lab, LD, Greens, Nats and half the Tory Party should seek emergency legislation to extend fixed term to 10 years

    Take them on head on.

    We cannot allow Fascists to take over the UK to destroy the freedom our ancestors fought so hard to protect.

    The fascists can beat as much as they like if all none Fascist Parties created a Government of National Unity in the face of evil.
    Do you know the symbolism off 88? Google it if not.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,967
    Leon said:

    No, my argument was that UK parliaments almost never go the full term, for a myriad of reasons perhaps overlying one psychological law: a fear of going right to the end

    I’ve adduced the evidence; only Major went the full term; I am therefore correct
    Since you are almost invariably incorrect, you clearly need to go back and rethink your working,
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Eabhal said:

    That's true, particularly in Scotland. The underlying issue is that everyone wants to live in or around Edinburgh.

    But it still doesn't explain why house prices are increasing so quickly even where there are more houses being built and the population (and the number of households) is falling. The only area this isn't happening is around Aberdeen.
    There are other factors at play as well, such as the increased costs of building new homes due to regulations, materials, and labour - and also the availability of mortgage finance.

    If banks moved from lending 4x to lending 6x income, prices would rise with all other factors held constant.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,491
    IanB2 said:

    What you seem to be missing is that Starmer will call the election early if it’s in his party’s interest, but if your (probably absurd) prediction that Farage is heading for a win, he will wait and this parliament will go the full term.
    Politicians often think that they can avoid the inevitable with a well-timed campaign. We have the example of Sunak this year. It's totally conceivable that Starmer could call an election at some point even while the polls are against him.
  • If Farage is heading for victory Lab, LD, Greens, Nats and half the Tory Party should seek emergency legislation to extend fixed term to 10 years

    Take them on head on.

    We cannot allow Fascists to take over the UK to destroy the freedom our ancestors fought so hard to protect.

    The fascists can beat as much as they like if all none Fascist Parties created a Government of National Unity in the face of evil.
    It's more likely you'd have a situation like the last French legislative elections and the centre and left parties tactically voted for one another to stop the populist right party getting in. You could end up with a situation where Farage won the popular vote, but Labour won the most seats and formed a coalition with the Lib Dems and Greens.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,902

    I have said the same about Biden's aggressive economic policies - which also included getting biddable countries to increase Corporation Tax. Oddly, PB's Biden defenders (of which there are many) take the rather dickless stance that that's OK for the gaffer but we shouldn't do the same in case we offend someone. Or something.
    Luckyguy straw-manning again, I see.

    And let me remind you again that you're essentially whining that he was tough on tax havens. Given our CT rates are higher than those in the US, I don't find that particularly worrying.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,459
    kinabalu said:

    The US has far more leeway on the public finances than we do.
    That's not true. The US and UK budget deficits have been pretty similar over the last few years, at around 4-7% of GDP depending on the year, and ten year government debt yields are also similar, at around 4%. The UK has a slightly better medium term outlook on the public finances while the US's growth prospects are currently much better.

    US credit default swaps are higher than the UK at 29 bps compared to 21 bps.

    https://uk.investing.com/rates-bonds/world-cds

    We are both advanced countries that borrow largely in our own currencies, and we seem to have pretty similar "leeway" in this area.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,967
    edited December 2024
    HYUFD said:

    She will survive. Kemi won the Tory MPs and members votes and already the Conservatives lead some polls which would have been unbelievable in July
    Probably you are right. Only that chump IDS got binned before he had the chance to fight an election, and only because it was apparent to almost everyone that he was a fish truly out of water.

    The Tories are likely to wait the verdict of the voters before ditching young Badenoch.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    edited December 2024
    Honestly, these attempts to keep the right out of power are literally insane and self harming. Remainery 2nd vote madness

    eg Hitler won fair and square in 1933 and keeping him out of power “coz he looks a bit dodgy” would have been crazy - and also counter productive. He then went on to stabilise the German economy, modernise the transport system (eg autobahns), host a great Olympics, and generally revitalise the whole nation. Yes he let things get out of hand in the 1940s, to an extent, but that’s true of all parties that stay too long in power. They get stale and run out of ideas. Hitler was no different
  • Leon said:

    Yeah. Cancelling democracy cause you don’t like the outcome is always a good call

    🙄
    Interesting chat between the Narrator and Tyler Durden.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,140
    edited December 2024
    The centre-left is still doing better in the UK than most other European countries. Collectively they're on about 50% in the polling average, ie. Lab+LD+Greens+SNP+PC. (Although not all LD voters would preference Labour over the Tories).
  • If Farage is heading for victory Lab, LD, Greens, Nats and half the Tory Party should seek emergency legislation to extend fixed term to 10 years

    Take them on head on.

    We cannot allow Fascists to take over the UK to destroy the freedom our ancestors fought so hard to protect.

    The fascists can beat as much as they like if all none Fascist Parties created a Government of National Unity in the face of evil.
    This is probably the one comment which is more deranged that Keir Starmer himself - you aren't Keir starmer in disguise by any chance ?
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,200

    If Farage is heading for victory Lab, LD, Greens, Nats and half the Tory Party should seek emergency legislation to extend fixed term to 10 years

    Take them on head on.

    We cannot allow Fascists to take over the UK to destroy the freedom our ancestors fought so hard to protect.

    The fascists can beat as much as they like if all none Fascist Parties created a Government of National Unity in the face of evil.
    Just get Hope not Hate on the case for the next few years. Bound to nip the Reform surge in the bud.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,200

    This is probably the one comment which is more deranged that Keir Starmer himself - you aren't Keir starmer in disguise by any chance ?
    I think it is hard to gauge Shecorns88's politics from their posts so I am not sure how you can say that.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,877

    Interesting chat between the Narrator and Tyler Durden.
    THIS CONVERSATION IS OVER.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Taz said:

    Young Londoner jailed in Dubai for a year for "holiday romance" with 17 year old girl.

    Must be more to this than meets the eye.

    The girl's mother made a complaint and that was that for the young lad.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/londoner-18-sentenced-to-a-year-in-dubai-prison-over-holiday-romance-with-17-year-old-girl/ar-AA1vEWVR?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=2b1db61995894b42d7510ef35d01fa81&ei=12

    Was wondering how long this one would take to come up!

    Yes, having sex with a 17-year-old, even when consentual, is illegal in loads of places.

    Also, criminal justice works differently in different countries.

    The usual MO from Brits arrested in Dubai is to scream half a story at the Daily Mail, and hope the negative headlines can help the British Ambassador plead for clemency on the basis of the bad publicity. Sometimes it works, other times not.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,841

    If Farage is heading for victory Lab, LD, Greens, Nats and half the Tory Party should seek emergency legislation to extend fixed term to 10 years

    Take them on head on.

    We cannot allow Fascists to take over the UK to destroy the freedom our ancestors fought so hard to protect.

    The fascists can beat as much as they like if all none Fascist Parties created a Government of National Unity in the face of evil.
    Indefinite extension of parliament?

    We could call that an Enabling Act, eh, HH?

    You never did answer my question - a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border. Which side do you bury the survivors?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,976
    Sandpit said:

    There are other factors at play as well, such as the increased costs of building new homes due to regulations, materials, and labour - and also the availability of mortgage finance.

    If banks moved from lending 4x to lending 6x income, prices would rise with all other factors held constant.
    I'm not convinced that the cost of building houses has had much of an impact at all, with the price largely set by this apparently insatiable demand.

    I also think the market is extremely sticky and inefficient, with total house sales down significantly over the last 20 years, even as the number of houses has increased faster the population. That means new builds are a much larger proportion of those being sold than previously.

    The combination of LBTT, perverse council tax bandings, WFH, CGT and IHT exemptions makes moving house deeply unattractive for most, particularly when downsizing.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,085

    If Farage is heading for victory Lab, LD, Greens, Nats and half the Tory Party should seek emergency legislation to extend fixed term to 10 years

    Take them on head on.

    We cannot allow Fascists to take over the UK to destroy the freedom our ancestors fought so hard to protect.

    The fascists can beat as much as they like if all none Fascist Parties created a Government of National Unity in the face of evil.
    Is your day-job sitting in the Romanian constitutional court ?
  • Interesting chat between the Narrator and Tyler Durden.
    When you associate with the likes of Tommy Robinson and Andrew Tate you cross a line of decency.

    When you cross a line of decency then democracy must do all it can to crush it.

    39 to 45 a Government of National Unity crushed it

    Which side do you think Farage would have been on in 1939.

    With Rothermere, The Daily Mail and Moseley and all the utter closet Fascists.

    Do you seriously suggest any exponential of centre let alone left thinking views. Any person if colour, non approved religion, gay, trans et Al would be safe with Robinson running the Streets and Tate social media.

    To step aside is to take sides Facism has to be destroyed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,841
    Eabhal said:

    I'm not convinced that the cost of building houses has had much of an impact at all, with the price largely set by this apparently insatiable demand.

    I also think the market is extremely sticky and inefficient, with total house sales down significantly over the last 20 years, even as the number of houses has increased faster the population. That means new builds are a much larger proportion of those being sold than previously.

    The combination of LBTT, perverse council tax bandings, WFH, CGT and IHT exemptions makes moving house deeply unattractive for most, particularly when downsizing.
    The number of houses hasn’t increased faster than population. The rate of building may have increased, but it is total mismatch, still.

    Look at occupancy rates.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,841

    When you associate with the likes of Tommy Robinson and Andrew Tate you cross a line of decency.

    When you cross a line of decency then democracy must do all it can to crush it.

    39 to 45 a Government of National Unity crushed it

    Which side do you think Farage would have been on in 1939.

    With Rothermere, The Daily Mail and Moseley and all the utter closet Fascists.

    Do you seriously suggest any exponential of centre let alone left thinking views. Any person if colour, non approved religion, gay, trans et Al would be safe with Robinson running the Streets and Tate social media.

    To step aside is to take sides Facism has to be destroyed.
    Rothermere and the Daily Mail demanded that Chamberlin go and someone capable prosecute the war. They were 100% behind that to the end of the war.

    Mosley had about 3 supporters.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,200
    Sandpit said:

    Was wondering how long this one would take to come up!

    Yes, having sex with a 17-year-old, even when consentual, is illegal in loads of places.

    Also, criminal justice works differently in different countries.

    The usual MO from Brits arrested in Dubai is to scream half a story at the Daily Mail, and hope the negative headlines can help the British Ambassador plead for clemency on the basis of the bad publicity. Sometimes it works, other times not.
    The story just says a holiday romance, it doesn't go into any of the gruesome details. Sex with a minor is a different matter. The article says he is jailed over a holiday romance which seems pretty benign.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,976
    edited December 2024

    The number of houses hasn’t increased faster than population. The rate of building may have increased, but it is total mismatch, still.

    Look at occupancy rates.
    It certainly has in Scotland - about 3x faster than the population in the last 10 years. We can see that from council tax stats.
  • Leon said:

    Yeah. Cancelling democracy cause you don’t like the outcome is always a good call

    🙄
    It worked between 1939 and 1945 did it not?

    Or did you want Herr Hitler to win.

    You should stay in Columbia with the descendents of Bormann and co
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,841
    Sandpit said:

    Was wondering how long this one would take to come up!

    Yes, having sex with a 17-year-old, even when consentual, is illegal in loads of places.

    Also, criminal justice works differently in different countries.

    The usual MO from Brits arrested in Dubai is to scream half a story at the Daily Mail, and hope the negative headlines can help the British Ambassador plead for clemency on the basis of the bad publicity. Sometimes it works, other times not.
    Besides, I thought we were supposed to learn from and embrace other cultures. Not tell them what to do.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,955
    Cookie said:

    I have just been asked, in all sincerity, and in relation to a conversation which arose organically, by a younger colleague, presumably in the expectation that, as a man of the world of a certain age that I would know this, what the difference is between a stoat and a weasel.

    Other men of a certain age – i.e. everybody here – will, I’m sure, recognise the relish with which I savoured the moment before slamming the ball gleefully into the open goal in front of me.

    It was all I could do not to pull my jumper over my head and wheel around the office in celebration. Days in the office rarely get much better than this. Friends, I feel so ALIVE.

    My younger colleagues celebrated by rolling their eyes in a way I have chosen to interpret as “indulgently.”

    (frantically googles)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Eabhal said:

    I'm not convinced that the cost of building houses has had much of an impact at all, with the price largely set by this apparently insatiable demand.

    I also think the market is extremely sticky and inefficient, with total house sales down significantly over the last 20 years, even as the number of houses has increased faster the population. That means new builds are a much larger proportion of those being sold than previously.

    The combination of LBTT, perverse council tax bandings, WFH, CGT and IHT exemptions makes moving house deeply unattractive for most, particularly when downsizing.
    Stamp duty is another factor, making the market ‘sticky’ and reducing the number of steps on the ladder for the average person.

    Most young couples getting married now will totally max out whatever they can get from the bank, and hope to only move once more if at all.

    This also affects labour mobility, especially where both partners are working which is now almost always the case.
  • If Farage is heading for victory Lab, LD, Greens, Nats and half the Tory Party should seek emergency legislation to extend fixed term to 10 years

    Take them on head on.

    We cannot allow Fascists to take over the UK to destroy the freedom our ancestors fought so hard to protect.

    The fascists can beat as much as they like if all none Fascist Parties created a Government of National Unity in the face of evil.
    We live in a democracy and as such we cannot chose to overthrow it no matter how much we disagree

    The question in that scenario is just why all those you mentioned did not win the argument
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,017
    edited December 2024
    Taz said:

    The story just says a holiday romance, it doesn't go into any of the gruesome details. Sex with a minor is a different matter. The article says he is jailed over a holiday romance which seems pretty benign.
    I think you need to read between the lines, they probably didnt just write some poetry to each other.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,976
    Sandpit said:

    Stamp duty is another factor, making the market ‘sticky’ and reducing the number of steps on the ladder for the average person.

    Most young couples getting married now will totally max out whatever they can get from the bank, and hope to only move once more if at all.

    This also affects labour mobility, especially where both partners are working which is now almost always the case.
    That's LBTT in Scots Gaelic ;)
  • HYUFD said:

    She will survive. Kemi won the Tory MPs and members votes and already the Conservatives lead some polls which would have been unbelievable in July
    It is too soon to dismiss her and as those who excuse Starmer's woeful government insist there is 4 plus years to go and lots of water to flow under the bridge

    Indeed the only important voices anti Kemi would be conservatives and as you say they do actually lead in some polls
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,135
    edited December 2024
    Taz said:

    The story just says a holiday romance, it doesn't go into any of the gruesome details. Sex with a minor is a different matter. The article says he is jailed over a holiday romance which seems pretty benign.
    Over on mumsnet they're upset about it because the 17 year old involved was also a tourist from Britain, and her mother didn't contact the authorities in Dubai until they were back in London (so that her daughter wouldn't get in trouble for having sex out of marriage).

    I think that puts a slightly different spin on things.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    edited December 2024

    I think you need to read between the lines, they probably didnt just write some poetry to each other.
    OMG you’re saying an 18 year old and a 17 year old who fancied each other got together and consensually… had sex???
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,955
    To: @MattW, @Alphabet_Soup, @Phil, @Leon
    Re: Puberty blockers bans and matters arising

    * The number of detransitioners
    Unknown. If I were to guess I'd say 10-100 in UK, presumably much bigger in US. Terminology makes things difficult: are we talking about reverting pronouns, regretting surgery, what? Terms such as "desister" and "detransitioner" have grown up to describe this, but as ever are imprecise: I'd go for "date started hormones", "date stopped hormones", "date switched pronouns", "date switched pronouns back", etc.

    * The upcoming study
    The study protocol is due to be published around now (it's late). When it is published it will contain details like study type, study design, number of arms, sample size calc and power, duration, etc. I assume it will be public domain: if not I'll try to get a copy to you if I can get one (I'm not working on it!)

    * The US/UK gap
    The situation in the US is much more different in the UK. In the UK the numbers are much smaller (genital surgery for under-16s isn't UK legal) and the combination of that and UK bureaucracy makes the number of UK trans people (however defined) considerably smaller than the US. IIUC the US has got thousands (tens-of-thousands?) of operated-upon children regarding primary or secondary sex characteristics, the UK number would be two-or-more magnitudes smaller. I promised @MaxPB I would try to do a CONSORT-ish diagram for the Tavistock before EOY: it'll be tight but I'll try

    * Syntactic review
    I started the promised syntactic review of the Final Cass Report last weekend, and will have to scale it back: I didn't realise how big the report is (around 120,000 words). I have done a word cloud and a sentiment analysis of one of the sections and will do the Shannon information entropy this weekend: If I work out how to get Visio I'll do a flow chart as well. It might not be the kind of thing the mods will want for PB and I might be able to get it published in the stats mags (eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chance_(magazine)), but I'll run it past the mods first

    * Mayhem
    Incidentally, regarding Leon's remark on “never operate on a healthy organ”, you may be interested to know that one of the meanings of "mayhem" is "the removal of a healthy organ"


  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    Cookie said:

    A weasel is weaselly recognisable and a stoat is stoatally different.
    If you actually came right back with that you should get a Nobel
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,200

    When you associate with the likes of Tommy Robinson and Andrew Tate you cross a line of decency.

    When you cross a line of decency then democracy must do all it can to crush it.

    39 to 45 a Government of National Unity crushed it

    Which side do you think Farage would have been on in 1939.

    With Rothermere, The Daily Mail and Moseley and all the utter closet Fascists.

    Do you seriously suggest any exponential of centre let alone left thinking views. Any person if colour, non approved religion, gay, trans et Al would be safe with Robinson running the Streets and Tate social media.

    To step aside is to take sides Facism has to be destroyed.
    It doesn't help that the Beeb keeps enabling Farage as he is on Question Time every ruddy week talking about annexing the Sudetenland.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,955
    Cookie said:

    I have just been asked, in all sincerity, and in relation to a conversation which arose organically, by a younger colleague, presumably in the expectation that, as a man of the world of a certain age that I would know this, what the difference is between a stoat and a weasel.

    Other men of a certain age – i.e. everybody here – will, I’m sure, recognise the relish with which I savoured the moment before slamming the ball gleefully into the open goal in front of me.

    It was all I could do not to pull my jumper over my head and wheel around the office in celebration. Days in the office rarely get much better than this. Friends, I feel so ALIVE.

    My younger colleagues celebrated by rolling their eyes in a way I have chosen to interpret as “indulgently.”

    What is the difference between a joist and a girder?
    What is the difference between an enzyme and a hormone?

    (both of these are jokes, btw)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,135
    edited December 2024
    Taz said:

    It doesn't help that the Beeb keeps enabling Farage as he is on Question Time every ruddy week talking about annexing the Sudetenland.
    I think he prefers the name "Continental Kent" for the region.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,491
    Taz said:


    It doesn't help that the Beeb keeps enabling Farage as he is on Question Time every ruddy week talking about annexing the Sudetenland.
    If the Beeb is a threat to democracy then it too will surely have to go.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,951

    We live in a democracy and as such we cannot chose to overthrow it no matter how much we disagree

    The question in that scenario is just why all those you mentioned did not win the argument
    The possibility of a Farage surge is why I have mixed thoughts about Starmer.

    While I have little doubt that Angela Rayner would - being red-haired, passionate, leftish, etc - do much better in rallying the troops and leading the charge in an election against, say the Tories.

    But what if there is a real prospect of Farage in power? Then, I suspect, all those horrified at the prospect (which is very different from the return of the Tories) would very likely rally more easily to a more moderate Labour option even if the person concerned is a bit "meh". Starmer fits the bill. A known quantity: dull but safe.

    The Labour position is stronger than the 34% indicates - that was due to the inevitability of the Tory defeat, leading to a low turnout and a drift to the Greens, various Indys, etc. They likely would revert to type faced with the Faragists.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,116
    Leon said:

    If you actually came right back with that you should get a Nobel
    It's a really old joke. One my dad told me when I was a kid, and I, in turn, tell my son. To a suitable roll of the eyes.

    I bet a lot of kids nowadays don't even know what a stoat or a weasel are. My son only knew about a 'weasel' from the nursery rhyme.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    In another blow to SKS Fans

    Labour approval hits all-time low (-41)

    ✅ Approve 18% (-4)
    ❌ Disapprove 59% (+1)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 9 Dec (+/- vs 2 Dec)
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,374
    MattW said:

    The Health Secretary Statement is making a statement on Puberty Blockers on in the Commons.

    An indefinite ban is being imposed.

    'These should never have been used until after enough evidence being available' sounds like a potential large incoming compensation bill, if the NHS or NHS staff were involved.

    (a) Compensation would require someone who had them to sue, but most people who had them were eager to take them. It's not those who received them who are concerned about them, by and large.

    (b) I doubt such comments now would mean the prescriptions at the time would fail the Bolam test.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295

    It's a really old joke. One my dad told me when I was a kid, and I, in turn, tell my son. To a suitable roll of the eyes.

    I bet a lot of kids nowadays don't even know what a stoat or a weasel are. My son only knew about a 'weasel' from the nursery rhyme.
    I’ve never heard it before. I thought @Cookie was just exulting in his chance to explain different mustelids to underlings. And I gave him a like just for THAT

    But if he had this old joke ready to roll and shot it straight back he deserves ten likes. Ten thousand!
  • The possibility of a Farage surge is why I have mixed thoughts about Starmer.

    While I have little doubt that Angela Rayner would - being red-haired, passionate, leftish, etc - do much better in rallying the troops and leading the charge in an election against, say the Tories.

    But what if there is a real prospect of Farage in power? Then, I suspect, all those horrified at the prospect (which is very different from the return of the Tories) would very likely rally more easily to a more moderate Labour option even if the person concerned is a bit "meh". Starmer fits the bill. A known quantity: dull but safe.

    The Labour position is stronger than the 34% indicates - that was due to the inevitability of the Tory defeat, leading to a low turnout and a drift to the Greens, various Indys, etc. They likely would revert to type faced with the Faragists.

    I just do not see Farage gaining the support to win a GE but as I said to @Shecorns88 you have to win the argument not subvert democracy as he/she ludicrously suggested
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,276
    edited December 2024
    Wanders back onto PB.

    Sees the current debate is shall we just cancel elections or not if there’s a risk that Labour will lose.

    Wanders back out of PB again.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,374

    I'd be interested to know how they'd manage a double-blind trial to establish 'evidence'.
    You don't need a double blind trial. Lots of things can't be blinded or aren't suitable for a randomised trial design at all. You can do an unblinded trial and there are plenty of other research methods available.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295

    In another blow to SKS Fans

    Labour approval hits all-time low (-41)

    ✅ Approve 18% (-4)
    ❌ Disapprove 59% (+1)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 9 Dec (+/- vs 2 Dec)

    This explains why I haven’t met many people who approve of the Labour government. They barely exist
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,785

    (a) Compensation would require someone who had them to sue, but most people who had them were eager to take them. It's not those who received them who are concerned about them, by and large.

    (b) I doubt such comments now would mean the prescriptions at the time would fail the Bolam test.
    And of course litigation could go the other way if evidence does emerge of puberty blockers being safe and effective, as motivated patients would have been denied them and minded to litigate.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,967
    edited December 2024
    Leon said:

    This explains why I haven’t met many people who approve of the Labour government. They barely exist
    You’re certainly not going to find them in France or Colombia or Cambodia or suchlike
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,459
    edited December 2024

    The number of houses hasn’t increased faster than population. The rate of building may have increased, but it is total mismatch, still.

    Look at occupancy rates.
    Yes and there's two other crucial factors. Family size is shrinking, so fewer and fewer people occupy each house.

    And the houses built are much smaller than the average (750 sq ft vs 1500 sq ft iirc, compared to 1600 sq ft for new houses in Germany) so there is much less space even for the smaller families we now have.

    So the mismatch is much bigger even than the usual obsessive focus on numbers of houses vs population growth indicates.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,200

    Over on mumsnet they're upset about it because the 17 year old involved was also a tourist from Britain, and her mother didn't contact the authorities in Dubai until they were back in London (so that her daughter wouldn't get in trouble for having sex out of marriage).

    I think that puts a slightly different spin on things.
    That's an incredibly shitty thing to do. Of course it probably means the girl cannot go back to Dubai as she may be in trouble if she does.
  • We live in a democracy and as such we cannot chose to overthrow it no matter how much we disagree

    The question in that scenario is just why all those you mentioned did not win the argument
    I'd agree 100% in all circumstances besides this.

    Farage is backed by dirty money from Putin, from the excesses of Bannon and Putin

    This is not home grown Fascism like we saw from NF / BNP this is foreign funded Facism imported in to the UK to support Tommy Robinson and Andrew Tate.

    Farage is Farage a spiv chancer ready to head up any anti democratic bandwagon

    He has a window of opportunity with Trump and Musk in Washington on power and before Putin wanes.

    He would destroy democracy in one of the great democracies.

    We postponed democracy for 6 years 1939 to 1945 to fight for our freedoms and may need to do so again.

    We can all agree or disagree across the spectrum when fundamentally decent people challenge for power, however misguided we may think they are or not

    However the threat we now face from foreign funded Fascism under the guise of Reform is greater than at any time since 1939. Greater than any threat from Communism, greater than any threat from Islam.

    Trump and Putin have their finger on the majority of nuclear arms, they have allowed Musk to control the heavens....

    The threat is very very real

    Does anyone seriously believe this Country would be safe under a Reform Government.

    It would be a fascist dystopia hell. We had a glimpse of it on the streets of Lancashire, Tamworth and other places in the summer.

    I'll say nothing else about this
    ..

    I just hope I'm wrong
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,785

    In another blow to SKS Fans

    Labour approval hits all-time low (-41)

    ✅ Approve 18% (-4)
    ❌ Disapprove 59% (+1)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 9 Dec (+/- vs 2 Dec)

    I would think mostly disappointment from the Left. The right would disapprove anyway.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,459

    If Farage is heading for victory Lab, LD, Greens, Nats and half the Tory Party should seek emergency legislation to extend fixed term to 10 years

    Take them on head on.

    We cannot allow Fascists to take over the UK to destroy the freedom our ancestors fought so hard to protect.
    "Only people I agree with are allowed to win elections".

    Strikes me as a very Fascist comment.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,967

    I'd agree 100% in all circumstances besides this.

    Farage is backed by dirty money from Putin, from the excesses of Bannon and Putin

    This is not home grown Fascism like we saw from NF / BNP this is foreign funded Facism imported in to the UK to support Tommy Robinson and Andrew Tate.

    Farage is Farage a spiv chancer ready to head up any anti democratic bandwagon

    He has a window of opportunity with Trump and Musk in Washington on power and before Putin wanes.

    He would destroy democracy in one of the great democracies.

    We postponed democracy for 6 years 1939 to 1945 to fight for our freedoms and may need to do so again.

    We can all agree or disagree across the spectrum when fundamentally decent people challenge for power, however misguided we may think they are or not

    However the threat we now face from foreign funded Fascism under the guise of Reform is greater than at any time since 1939. Greater than any threat from Communism, greater than any threat from Islam.

    Trump and Putin have their finger on the majority of nuclear arms, they have allowed Musk to control the heavens....

    The threat is very very real

    Does anyone seriously believe this Country would be safe under a Reform Government.

    It would be a fascist dystopia hell. We had a glimpse of it on the streets of Lancashire, Tamworth and other places in the summer.

    I'll say nothing else about this
    ..

    I just hope I'm wrong
    That’s what you have in common with our Leon. Everyone hopes (and expects) that you are wrong.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    IanB2 said:

    You’re certainly not going to find them in France or Colombia or Cambodia or suchlike
    Why do you think I go to these places?
  • Leon said:

    This explains why I haven’t met many people who approve of the Labour government. They barely exist
    Lots of polls lately inordinate number

    Just saying

    Can't cast aspurtions but have we ever seen so many polls
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,698
    Leon said:

    If you actually came right back with that you should get a Nobel
    I did! I really did! I took a second or two to savour the moment, and then, as you say, came right back. It was a glorious moment. Possibly the highlight of my professional career as an office functionary.
  • I'd agree 100% in all circumstances besides this.

    Farage is backed by dirty money from Putin, from the excesses of Bannon and Putin

    This is not home grown Fascism like we saw from NF / BNP this is foreign funded Facism imported in to the UK to support Tommy Robinson and Andrew Tate.

    Farage is Farage a spiv chancer ready to head up any anti democratic bandwagon

    He has a window of opportunity with Trump and Musk in Washington on power and before Putin wanes.

    He would destroy democracy in one of the great democracies.

    We postponed democracy for 6 years 1939 to 1945 to fight for our freedoms and may need to do so again.

    We can all agree or disagree across the spectrum when fundamentally decent people challenge for power, however misguided we may think they are or not

    However the threat we now face from foreign funded Fascism under the guise of Reform is greater than at any time since 1939. Greater than any threat from Communism, greater than any threat from Islam.

    Trump and Putin have their finger on the majority of nuclear arms, they have allowed Musk to control the heavens....

    The threat is very very real

    Does anyone seriously believe this Country would be safe under a Reform Government.

    It would be a fascist dystopia hell. We had a glimpse of it on the streets of Lancashire, Tamworth and other places in the summer.

    I'll say nothing else about this
    ..

    I just hope I'm wrong
    You cannot pick and chose under a democracy

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,374
    Fishing said:

    "Only people I agree with are allowed to win elections".

    Strikes me as a very Fascist comment.
    More or less fascist than, "[Hitler] then went on to stabilise the German economy, modernise the transport system (eg autobahns), host a great Olympics, and generally revitalise the whole nation."?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    edited December 2024
    Eabhal said:

    I'm not convinced that the cost of building houses has had much of an impact at all, with the price largely set by this apparently insatiable demand.

    I also think the market is extremely sticky and inefficient, with total house sales down significantly over the last 20 years, even as the number of houses has increased faster the population. That means new builds are a much larger proportion of those being sold than previously.

    The combination of LBTT, perverse council tax bandings, WFH, CGT and IHT exemptions makes moving house deeply unattractive for most, particularly when downsizing.
    Not IHT - there is provision for downsizing as one gets old. Or at least IHT shouldn't be a worry.

    People (as so often) may be getting unnecessarily worked up about it, like the elderly relative who was getting all panicky about IHT (about ten years too late, IMV, but I didn't point that out): I had to sit him down, point out the values of his house and his savings, and explain in words of fewer than four letters that IHT was not payable on his e3state .;..
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,374

    You cannot pick and chose under a democracy

    I get what you're saying, but maybe you could've phrased it better? Picking and choosing is literally what you do under a democracy, after all.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,200

    I'd agree 100% in all circumstances besides this.

    Farage is backed by dirty money from Putin, from the excesses of Bannon and Putin

    This is not home grown Fascism like we saw from NF / BNP this is foreign funded Facism imported in to the UK to support Tommy Robinson and Andrew Tate.

    Farage is Farage a spiv chancer ready to head up any anti democratic bandwagon

    He has a window of opportunity with Trump and Musk in Washington on power and before Putin wanes.

    He would destroy democracy in one of the great democracies.

    We postponed democracy for 6 years 1939 to 1945 to fight for our freedoms and may need to do so again.

    We can all agree or disagree across the spectrum when fundamentally decent people challenge for power, however misguided we may think they are or not

    However the threat we now face from foreign funded Fascism under the guise of Reform is greater than at any time since 1939. Greater than any threat from Communism, greater than any threat from Islam.

    Trump and Putin have their finger on the majority of nuclear arms, they have allowed Musk to control the heavens....

    The threat is very very real

    Does anyone seriously believe this Country would be safe under a Reform Government.

    It would be a fascist dystopia hell. We had a glimpse of it on the streets of Lancashire, Tamworth and other places in the summer.

    I'll say nothing else about this
    ..

    I just hope I'm wrong
    We need a benevolent dictatorship.

    SKS needs to follow the playbook of His Excellency Robert Gabriel Mugabe when it comes to winning elections he may look like losing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,902
    MattW said:

    I missed barbarism.
    I've never really missed barbarism.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    Cookie said:

    I did! I really did! I took a second or two to savour the moment, and then, as you say, came right back. It was a glorious moment. Possibly the highlight of my professional career as an office functionary.
    Drink well, tonight, my friend

    Drink well and know that, from this day forth, your name lives long
  • Lots of polls lately inordinate number

    Just saying

    Can't cast aspurtions but have we ever seen so many polls
    There are fewer polls since the election and maybe you need to learn how to spell
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,967
    Leon said:

    Why do you think I go to these places?
    Because you are running away from something that it would be off topic for us to even begin to consider.
  • I just do not see Farage gaining the support to win a GE but as I said to @Shecorns88 you have to win the argument not subvert democracy as he/she ludicrously suggested
    We subverted democracy in technical terms with the Government of National Unity in 1939 to 1945 did we not.

    Please read what I have suggested.

    Not a 10 year Labour Govt but a genuine Government of national unity
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,826
    edited December 2024

    Over on mumsnet they're upset about it because the 17 year old involved was also a tourist from Britain, and her mother didn't contact the authorities in Dubai until they were back in London (so that her daughter wouldn't get in trouble for having sex out of marriage).

    I think that puts a slightly different spin on things.
    I think mumsnet has raised the right issue. The other issue is whether the 17 y.o. wanted to raise the issue. And finally, if you have a mum like that, why on earth are you telling her stuff about a young man you liked well enough at the time. Do they teach 17 yo girls nothing about how to shut up?
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,200

    There are fewer polls since the election and maybe you need to learn how to spell
    The one word per post spelling error is, of course, deliberate as as they would write deliberute.

    Edgy stuff.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,432
    Leon said:

    Honestly, these attempts to keep the right out of power are literally insane and self harming. Remainery 2nd vote madness

    eg Hitler won fair and square in 1933 and keeping him out of power “coz he looks a bit dodgy” would have been crazy - and also counter productive. He then went on to stabilise the German economy, modernise the transport system (eg autobahns), host a great Olympics, and generally revitalise the whole nation. Yes he let things get out of hand in the 1940s, to an extent, but that’s true of all parties that stay too long in power. They get stale and run out of ideas. Hitler was no different

    There's a counterfactual where Hitler dies in 1938 after the Anschluss with Austria but before the really naughty stuff started. He would probably be remembered as a great German who saved the nation from chaos (and communism), got the nation going again and revitalised German pride. And never forget that for very many Germans, a lot of the bad stuff that happened would have been stopped if only the Fuhrer knew, such was his image even quite deep into the war.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,432
    Leon said:

    This explains why I haven’t met many people who approve of the Labour government. They barely exist
    Another explanation is that as you are not actually ever in the country with the Labour government the locals have no clue what the foreign idiot is asking about...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,841
    Fishing said:

    Yes and there's two other crucial factors. Family size is shrinking, so fewer and fewer people occupy each house.

    And the houses built are much smaller than the average (750 sq ft vs 1500 sq ft iirc, compared to 1600 sq ft for new houses in Germany) so there is much less space even for the smaller families we now have.

    So the mismatch is much bigger even than the usual obsessive focus on numbers of houses vs population growth indicates.
    Under my UnDictatorship, all rooms built will have a minimum dimension of 4x4x4 meters.

    Including the throne room.

    Every man a king!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    edited December 2024

    More or less fascist than, "[Hitler] then went on to stabilise the German economy, modernise the transport system (eg autobahns), host a great Olympics, and generally revitalise the whole nation."?
    Did it not occur to you that I might just be joking? I mean, the line where I said “Hitler let things get a bit out of hand in the 1940s” was a clue, as was the bit where I said the main problem with Hitler’s later career was that he “got stale and ran out of ideas”

    I mean, I know that lacking a sense of humour correlates with low intelligence, but you don’t have to prove it so emphatically
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Taz said:

    The one word per post spelling error is, of course, deliberate as as they would write deliberute.

    Edgy stuff.
    Is inordinate number a spelling error or a spacing error?
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,200
    algarkirk said:

    I think mumsnet has raised the right issue. The other issue is whether the 17 y.o. wanted to raise the issue. And finally, if you have a mum like that, why on earth are you telling her stuff about a young man you liked well enough at the time. Do they teach 17 yo girls nothing about how to shut up?
    Maybe she walked in and discovered them humping ? The girl may not have told her but she found out inadvertently as seems to be the case quite a bit from Reddit threads about people found in the middle of the act.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,400
    Leon said:

    Why do you think I go to these places?
    Well the women.

    But as to supporting governments. I rather approve of this Labour government whilst the Tory party is sorting itself out. It really is an improvement on what the Tories managed to do. Boris/Brexit/Whatever - it was a car crash, and you can't have a government that's all noise and no action.

This discussion has been closed.