Not a bet for me. Even if Badenoch flops spectacularly, Farage is a worse choice.
Nothing would ensure a second Starmer government more certainly.
I'm not so sure. Farage strikes me as someone that the centrist Establishment often underestimate.
People might be annoyed enough with five years - well, actually by then about 20 - of mass immigration and economic stagnation to give Farage a whirl in 2029, especially if Kemi (and a successor?) disappoint. The Ukraine war might be over by then and Trump will be on his way out.
It's certainly not the likeliest scenario, and the logistics are daunting, but stranger things have happened ...
I can only speak for myself. But there is a growing thought in this country - and on here - that embraces shit like the Great Replacement Theory. I think that theory is nasty b/s, but politically it plays well amongst people who like conspiracy theories, are borderline or fully racist, and who want someone to blame for things they don't like.
And I can see Farage playing that sort of card to that crowd. After all, that card has helped Trump.
PB is just too upper middle class to understand the appeal of Farage.
Absolutely and with that comes the sneering at left behind communities and people who support Reform.
At times it really is an upper middle class circle jerk here.
So what exactly has Trump/Farage/brexit/Boris offered the left behind communities, other than false hopes?
A leader going down on beach to get wet as tide comes in probably far more honest and constructive.
Would you like to list what the BSing populists have offered that actually turns back decades of erosion from globalisation? What actually reverses post industrial society? What turns back time on populations getting older and taking not paying in causing costs, inflation and poverty?
You need to list a few, as there is only one thing that partially helped UK with all this in recent decades I can think of - the pooled EU money for investment in infrastructure and re-skilling that places like Wales and North East definitely benefitted from.
Morning, PB'ers.
Largely, nothing sl , other than the promise of a more monocultural society, and other culture wars.
That's not going to close the income gap any further, but does offer large financial interests to cash in on the back of regulation, through blaming metropolitan liberals for the social effects of Thatcherism and Reaganism.
Hence the Legatum Institute is behind GB News, for example.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
I don’t think your last point is valid. It's overusing past precedent as a guide to the future. There will be a party that comes in with a plan to cut the public sector radically - they will need to.
In my lifetime only four politicians have taken their party from opposition into government and I am really reallyold!
Starmer Cameron Blair Thatcher
Each one started out by seriously challenging the orthodoxy and comfort zone within their own party and reaching out to new voters. Early doors for Badenoch, but no sign yet that she is following the winning path. If anything she is looking to the core,
Looking at opinion polls for 1979 Thatcher after four months was being hammered by Labour. Starmer is by an order of magnitude doing better than she was. Maybe he wants to pick even more fights with the entrenched Tory vested interests
In my lifetime only four politicians have taken their party from opposition into government and I am really reallyold!
Starmer Cameron Blair Thatcher
Each one started out by seriously challenging the orthodoxy and comfort zone within their own party and reaching out to new voters. Early doors for Badenoch, but no sign yet that she is following the winning path. If anything she is looking to the core,
Looking at opinion polls for 1979 Thatcher after four months was being hammered by Labour. Starmer is by an order of magnitude doing better than she was. Maybe he wants to pick even more fights with the entrenched Tory vested interests
OT but something one needs to know: not only are banks sometimes imposing an upper limit on scam refunds, many are now bringing in an £100 excess deduction.
If the banks (as they do) have to cover the entire cost it creates no incentive for customers to be careful
I think that's an excellent idea.
The only issue I can see is people not complaining about smaller frauds due to the "excess", like a scratch on your car. So you'll get thousands of £99 frauds, or fraudsters testing out methods unnoticed before going for the big one.
Another one: to be rather frank, a large proportion of people who fall for these kind of frauds are not financially literate, and sometimes barely literate at all. This correlates with not having much cash. Apparently 1/3 of UK adults have savings of less than £1,000 - £100 to them would be a big, big hit.
The stories that hit the headlines are the pensioner who loses £20,000. But the kind of person who loses that much is likely to be rather rich anyway, possibly through a mortgage-free home.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
That's a good analysis.
I'm astonished at how extreme I find the views of some of my peer group but they seem to be seen as normal by most.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
100% true. It's a myth that revolutions are mostly fronted by working-class people. They're almost always propelled by disgruntled middle-class people whose expectations haven't been fulfilled.
Who the f**k voted SKS Labour so they could sell everything to Blackrock?
Some SKS Fans (naively) voted for Labour because they wanted change from Tory neoliberalism, instead they're getting Tory neoliberalism on steroids.
In what SKS Fan universe is this "putting money into the pockets of ordinary people"?
You need medical help.
This government is socialist not neoliberal.
But it’s fun having a crazed Corbynite still on the site, like having a court jester - we can laugh at them and poke them with a stick to set them off. 😀
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
I don’t think your last point is valid. It's overusing past precedent as a guide to the future. There will be a party that comes in with a plan to cut the public sector radically - they will need to.
I don't think we're ready to accept that we can't afford to pay for everyone's healthcare, keep people in clover over the age of 65 and give those who find work hard to perform the same lifestyle of those who do.
Who the f**k voted SKS Labour so they could sell everything to Blackrock?
Some SKS Fans (naively) voted for Labour because they wanted change from Tory neoliberalism, instead they're getting Tory neoliberalism on steroids.
In what SKS Fan universe is this "putting money into the pockets of ordinary people"?
You need medical help.
This government is socialist not neoliberal.
Its neither socialist nor neoliberal.
It combines a love of the corporate state, hence its support of big finance, with a resentment of successful 'little people', hence its hostility to private schools and family farms.
Who the f**k voted SKS Labour so they could sell everything to Blackrock?
Some SKS Fans (naively) voted for Labour because they wanted change from Tory neoliberalism, instead they're getting Tory neoliberalism on steroids.
In what SKS Fan universe is this "putting money into the pockets of ordinary people"?
You need medical help.
This government is socialist not neoliberal.
I 'liked' the post but I agree that the Government is nowhere near neoliberal.
The last Conservative administration rode the votes of the elderly for social democracy to do a very modest amount of tax reform and spending cutbacks for the rest.
But, I'd argue they cut into bone not fat in justice, home affairs and defence.
A lot of woke-ists have quite right-wing views on economics, although they usually keep them quiet. Big John is right on that part of it. It's only when they're hit with an unexpected tax, or someone decides to built low-cost housing in their back yard, that you find out about those views.
Not a bet for me. Even if Badenoch flops spectacularly, Farage is a worse choice.
Nothing would ensure a second Starmer government more certainly.
I'm not so sure. Farage strikes me as someone that the centrist Establishment often underestimate.
People might be annoyed enough with five years - well, actually by then about 20 - of mass immigration and economic stagnation to give Farage a whirl in 2029, especially if Kemi (and a successor?) disappoint. The Ukraine war might be over by then and Trump will be on his way out.
It's certainly not the likeliest scenario, and the logistics are daunting, but stranger things have happened ...
I can only speak for myself. But there is a growing thought in this country - and on here - that embraces shit like the Great Replacement Theory. I think that theory is nasty b/s, but politically it plays well amongst people who like conspiracy theories, are borderline or fully racist, and who want someone to blame for things they don't like.
And I can see Farage playing that sort of card to that crowd. After all, that card has helped Trump.
PB is just too upper middle class to understand the appeal of Farage.
Absolutely and with that comes the sneering at left behind communities and people who support Reform.
At times it really is an upper middle class circle jerk here.
So what exactly has Trump/Farage/brexit/Boris offered the left behind communities, other than false hopes?
A leader going down on beach to get wet as tide comes in probably far more honest and constructive.
Would you like to list what the BSing populists have offered that actually turns back decades of erosion from globalisation? What actually reverses post industrial society? What turns back time on populations getting older and taking not paying in causing costs, inflation and poverty?
You need to list a few, as there is only one thing that partially helped UK with all this in recent decades I can think of - the pooled EU money for investment in infrastructure and re-skilling that places like Wales and North East definitely benefitted from.
Morning, PB'ers.
Largely, nothing sl , other than the promise of a more monocultural society, and other culture wars.
That's not going to close the income gap any further, but does offer large financial interests to cash in on the back of regulation, through blaming metropolitan liberals for the social effects of Thatcherism and Reaganism.
Hence the Legatum Institute is behind GB News, for example.
Spot on. The stronger Conservative politics and its leaders a few decades ago, Thatcher and Reagan, would have whackamoled these daft disrupters and vandals right out of existence. It’s sooooooo easy. They have zilch to offer - they have zero policies that can actually deliver something better or remotely get near the BS promise.
Nigel Farage political career and achievements has mutilated my country. The fact he is still around as a player is an insanity.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
100% true. It's a myth that revolutions are mostly fronted by working-class people. They're almost always propelled by disgruntled middle-class people whose expectations haven't been fulfilled.
You have to be careful not to mix up age and education level though*, with so many more younger people with degrees than older generations. Which way does the causality lie?
Incidentally, Green votes don't really follow a eductation level pattern in the same way Labour/Tory/Reform votes do. That might be because they contain two distinct groups - Gaza protest and, err, people like me.
*note that while education level is a strong predictor of Tory/Labour vote patterns, social grade is not.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
Inviting Hitler and chums was a theatrical joke at posh soirées in Weimar Germany
As was inviting the Bolsheviks to similar events in Imperial Russia.
Who the f**k voted SKS Labour so they could sell everything to Blackrock?
Some SKS Fans (naively) voted for Labour because they wanted change from Tory neoliberalism, instead they're getting Tory neoliberalism on steroids.
In what SKS Fan universe is this "putting money into the pockets of ordinary people"?
You need medical help.
This government is socialist not neoliberal.
But it’s fun having a crazed Corbynite still on the site, like having a court jester - we can laugh at them and poke them with a stick to set them off. 😀
I think BJO is absolutely on the money to question why Labour supporters who claim to be interested in social justice have supported and continue to support a Government that is so utterly craven toward the interests of an overmighty US corporation that it delivers a grovelling Tweet confirming as much.
He misidentifies this as neoliberalism, but I think what he is really referring to is a vast appropriation of funds from the non wealthy to the wealthy. Real neoliberalism would create a very fluid and mobile economy and society with lots of competition, which is not what the huge corporations want at all.
Who the f**k voted SKS Labour so they could sell everything to Blackrock?
Some SKS Fans (naively) voted for Labour because they wanted change from Tory neoliberalism, instead they're getting Tory neoliberalism on steroids.
In what SKS Fan universe is this "putting money into the pockets of ordinary people"?
You need medical help.
This government is socialist not neoliberal.
But it’s fun having a crazed Corbynite still on the site, like having a court jester - we can laugh at them and poke them with a stick to set them off. 😀
I like having Corbynites on the site but when they start talking about Blackrock when there's a genocide going on in Gaza I worry that they've lost their soul
I wouldn't say very right-wing but they certainly squeel if the tax rises hit them.
I remember a conversation with a fellow soft Conservative back in 2014 who was annoyed Osborne only cut top-rate tax to 45p rather than 40p. He was affluent, lived in London, and worked for a Big4 accountant, but he was excoriating about any concerns on immigration, the EU, and detested ordinary Conservative activists. We actually argued about it with quite some passion.
I didn't realise it at the time but that was a real canary down the coal mine.
Who the f**k voted SKS Labour so they could sell everything to Blackrock?
Some SKS Fans (naively) voted for Labour because they wanted change from Tory neoliberalism, instead they're getting Tory neoliberalism on steroids.
In what SKS Fan universe is this "putting money into the pockets of ordinary people"?
You need medical help.
This government is socialist not neoliberal.
Its neither socialist nor neoliberal.
It combines a love of the corporate state, hence its support of big finance, with a resentment of successful 'little people', hence its hostility to private schools and family farms.
I'd say it is classically socialist because it's putting through big tax rises, expanding and deifying the State, and is pressing traditional left-wing erogenous zones on "landowners", private schools, private jets and big employers, whilst trying to exempt its own.
I think aspects of its secret distaste for Britain, its culture and its heritage are also creeping into its foreign policy.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
100% true. It's a myth that revolutions are mostly fronted by working-class people. They're almost always propelled by disgruntled middle-class people whose expectations haven't been fulfilled.
Revolutions do not occur when peasants starve; they happen when lawyers starve.
In my lifetime only four politicians have taken their party from opposition into government and I am really reallyold!
Starmer Cameron Blair Thatcher
Each one started out by seriously challenging the orthodoxy and comfort zone within their own party and reaching out to new voters. Early doors for Badenoch, but no sign yet that she is following the winning path. If anything she is looking to the core,
Looking at opinion polls for 1979 Thatcher after four months was being hammered by Labour. Starmer is by an order of magnitude doing better than she was. Maybe he wants to pick even more fights with the entrenched Tory vested interests
Rather reminiscent of Lord Haw Haw in the bunker.
Roger’s point does have echo of historical truth to it tbh. The actual next General Election voting day, May 3rd 2029 will be a different question and answer than a lot of voting and polling between now and then. The early years of Lady Thatcher is a good example, but 2010-2015 better example of how the full thing pans out. More recently how Trumpism was unpopular in 2022 mid terms but swept the board 2024 is example of how things move.
A converse example example is 1974-1979 - Labour started off with a giveaway budget, and seemed in a strong place politically at first, but that giveaway budget, where more prudence had actually been required, was the root cause of all the pain to come that shredded them.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
That's a good analysis.
I'm astonished at how extreme I find the views of some of my peer group but they seem to be seen as normal by most.
Do you wonder how many Jaguars are driven by women or men under 50?
Well, I'm one of them. And I bought mine in my 30s.
Jaguar are targeting a market that simply doesn't exist and, to the extent it does, it's the distinct Britishness and heritage of the marque that attracts customers to it as a luxury brand, just as for RR or Bentley.
In my lifetime only four politicians have taken their party from opposition into government and I am really reallyold!
Starmer Cameron Blair Thatcher
Each one started out by seriously challenging the orthodoxy and comfort zone within their own party and reaching out to new voters. Early doors for Badenoch, but no sign yet that she is following the winning path. If anything she is looking to the core,
Looking at opinion polls for 1979 Thatcher after four months was being hammered by Labour. Starmer is by an order of magnitude doing better than she was. Maybe he wants to pick even more fights with the entrenched Tory vested interests
Rather reminiscent of Lord Haw Haw in the bunker.
Roger’s point does have echo of historical truth to it tbh. The actual next General Election voting day, May 3rd 2029 will be a different question and answer than a lot of voting and polling between now and then. The early years of Lady Thatcher is a good example, but 2010-2015 better example of how the full thing pans out. More recently how Trumpism was unpopular in 2022 mid terms but swept the board 2024 is example of how things move.
A converse example example is 1974-1979 - Labour started off with a giveaway budget, and seemed in a strong place politically at first, but that giveaway budget, where more prudence had actually been required, was the root cause of all the pain to come that shredded them.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
That's a good analysis.
I'm astonished at how extreme I find the views of some of my peer group but they seem to be seen as normal by most.
Do you wonder how many Jaguars are driven by women or men under 50?
Well, I'm one of them. And I bought mine in my 30s.
Jaguar are targeting a market that simply doesn't exist and, to the extent it does, it's the distinct Britishness and heritage of the marque that attracts customers to it as a luxury brand, just as for RR or Bentley.
Who the f**k voted SKS Labour so they could sell everything to Blackrock?
Some SKS Fans (naively) voted for Labour because they wanted change from Tory neoliberalism, instead they're getting Tory neoliberalism on steroids.
In what SKS Fan universe is this "putting money into the pockets of ordinary people"?
You need medical help.
This government is socialist not neoliberal.
But it’s fun having a crazed Corbynite still on the site, like having a court jester - we can laugh at them and poke them with a stick to set them off. 😀
I think BJO is absolutely on the money to question why Labour supporters who claim to be interested in social justice have supported and continue to support a Government that is so utterly craven toward the interests of an overmighty US corporation that it delivers a grovelling Tweet confirming as much.
He misidentifies this as neoliberalism, but I think what he is really referring to is a vast appropriation of funds from the non wealthy to the wealthy. Real neoliberalism would create a very fluid and mobile economy and society with lots of competition, which is not what the huge corporations want at all.
We are only 4 month in - and they revealed zero thoughts in opposition. But I think there are veins of neoliberalism economics in how they are going about it. Private-public money in partnership will be big over the next 5 years. They will invite market idea’s and solutions into public sector under guise of reform. They have already started cutting the size of the state and number of civil servants.
Okay to be fair, I agree with you. There is a place for BJO and his arguments and point of view. Maybe the actual funny bit is he is so alone, the rest of the PB lefties are “they are my government and I’m right behind them.”
There often appears a world of difference between you and Casino - but how often in UK politics have you both voted for same people and party?
Time for PR, and people can more honestly go their separate ways?
Neoliberalism is contemporarily used to refer to market-oriented reform policies such as "eliminating price controls, deregulating capital markets, lowering trade barriers" and reducing, especially through privatization and austerity, state influence in the economy.
The socialist political movement includes political philosophies that originated in the revolutionary movements of the mid-to-late 18th century and out of concern for the social problems that socialists associated with capitalism.[28] By the late 19th century, after the work of Karl Marx and his collaborator Friedrich Engels, socialism had come to signify anti-capitalism and advocacy for a post-capitalist system based on some form of social ownership of the means of production.
OT but something one needs to know: not only are banks sometimes imposing an upper limit on scam refunds, many are now bringing in an £100 excess deduction.
I think there has to be at least a small element of personal responsibility for where you send your money. As long as the bank didn’t do anything wrong, why should they have to pay for your mistake?
The banks haven't been that great, it must be said. The delays in bringing in checking of the destination account and name were very telling (!). But either way somerthing to know about.
I'm actually surprised at how many scams are for less than £100 - once it's set up, why settle for so little?
I had one where someone managed to spend 2.99 GBP on my Amazon account. Spotted the and rang them. They said it was a scam and they used a small amount first hoping it was not noticed. Then they’d spend big,after a few days,
I had one where they ordered chocolates , car air fresheners, putty and a few other items to my home address, sent money e-cards to themselves. We enjoyed the chocolates etc, never found a use for the modelling putty mind you and Amazon refunded everything
Tom Bacon @TomABacon So, I've just spent a bit of time looking into the debate on IHT and farming. I... got a shock. First, a note: I have a friend who runs a family farm. In his view, the whole thing is a something and nothing. 🧵
Tom Bacon @TomABacon · Nov 20 How big a problem is this? Well, almost half of all farms have less than 20 hectares of land. Incredibly, though, the average UK farm is 82 hectares - a staggeringly high sum that indicates how much land is owned by a minority. /6
OT but something one needs to know: not only are banks sometimes imposing an upper limit on scam refunds, many are now bringing in an £100 excess deduction.
I think there has to be at least a small element of personal responsibility for where you send your money. As long as the bank didn’t do anything wrong, why should they have to pay for your mistake?
The banks haven't been that great, it must be said. The delays in bringing in checking of the destination account and name were very telling (!). But either way somerthing to know about.
I'm actually surprised at how many scams are for less than £100 - once it's set up, why settle for so little?
I had one where someone managed to spend 2.99 GBP on my Amazon account. Spotted the and rang them. They said it was a scam and they used a small amount first hoping it was not noticed. Then they’d spend big,after a few days,
I had one where they ordered chocolates , car air fresheners, putty and a few other items to my home address, sent money e-cards to themselves. We enjoyed the chocolates etc, never found a use for the modelling putty mind you and Amazon refunded everything
Afternoon Malc.
How's Storm Bert for you? Been much snow in the north?
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
That's a good analysis.
I'm astonished at how extreme I find the views of some of my peer group but they seem to be seen as normal by most.
Do you wonder how many Jaguars are driven by women or men under 50?
Well, I'm one of them. And I bought mine in my 30s.
Jaguar are targeting a market that simply doesn't exist and, to the extent it does, it's the distinct Britishness and heritage of the marque that attracts customers to it as a luxury brand, just as for RR or Bentley.
OT but something one needs to know: not only are banks sometimes imposing an upper limit on scam refunds, many are now bringing in an £100 excess deduction.
I think there has to be at least a small element of personal responsibility for where you send your money. As long as the bank didn’t do anything wrong, why should they have to pay for your mistake?
The banks haven't been that great, it must be said. The delays in bringing in checking of the destination account and name were very telling (!). But either way somerthing to know about.
I'm actually surprised at how many scams are for less than £100 - once it's set up, why settle for so little?
I had one where someone managed to spend 2.99 GBP on my Amazon account. Spotted the and rang them. They said it was a scam and they used a small amount first hoping it was not noticed. Then they’d spend big,after a few days,
I had one where they ordered chocolates , car air fresheners, putty and a few other items to my home address, sent money e-cards to themselves. We enjoyed the chocolates etc, never found a use for the modelling putty mind you and Amazon refunded everything
Afternoon Malc.
How's Storm Bert for you? Been much snow in the north?
Tom Bacon @TomABacon So, I've just spent a bit of time looking into the debate on IHT and farming. I... got a shock. First, a note: I have a friend who runs a family farm. In his view, the whole thing is a something and nothing. 🧵
Tom Bacon @TomABacon · Nov 20 How big a problem is this? Well, almost half of all farms have less than 20 hectares of land. Incredibly, though, the average UK farm is 82 hectares - a staggeringly high sum that indicates how much land is owned by a minority. /6
One big thing that is missed in that thread and the wider media discussion is that it isn't just the IHT changes. There were a whole load of other changes in the budget that whacked farmers e.g. a popular YouTuber found out that a very small change that no bean counter probably realised the extent of has cost him £50k.
Which is the why the even if you do get hit with the IHT bill, but it will only cost you say £20k a year every year for 10 years is grinding the gears of a load of farmers, as its another bill on top of a load of other bills / increases, when they aren't making mega bucks in the first place.
Actual state sanctioned sexual assault on women by men. Also forcing women to change and shower with men.
With every vile policy like this, he can add a % or two. Someone yesterday questioned about the trans lobby having captured the police. Can't believe they questioned it.
Badenoch and Farage will gain a % or two every time this happens.
OT but something one needs to know: not only are banks sometimes imposing an upper limit on scam refunds, many are now bringing in an £100 excess deduction.
I think there has to be at least a small element of personal responsibility for where you send your money. As long as the bank didn’t do anything wrong, why should they have to pay for your mistake?
The banks haven't been that great, it must be said. The delays in bringing in checking of the destination account and name were very telling (!). But either way somerthing to know about.
I'm actually surprised at how many scams are for less than £100 - once it's set up, why settle for so little?
I had one where someone managed to spend 2.99 GBP on my Amazon account. Spotted the and rang them. They said it was a scam and they used a small amount first hoping it was not noticed. Then they’d spend big,after a few days,
I had one where they ordered chocolates , car air fresheners, putty and a few other items to my home address, sent money e-cards to themselves. We enjoyed the chocolates etc, never found a use for the modelling putty mind you and Amazon refunded everything
Afternoon Malc.
How's Storm Bert for you? Been much snow in the north?
He's not in the North. Ayrshire is dahn sarf.
For a soft southerner like me, he's "in the north" 😂
Jaguar's an interesting marque. My view for a while has been this: they are not mass-market enough, and not high-end enough, to survive. They make good cars, but they're in a middle ground that is getting squeezed by both ends. They needed either to go back to being really high-end cars (I don't think going to the low end would help).
The £40-70K+ new market is absolutely stuffed with competitors, and whilst Jaguar has an image and a storied history, I'm unsure that's anywhere near enough for it to survive as anything other than a badge.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
That's a good analysis.
I'm astonished at how extreme I find the views of some of my peer group but they seem to be seen as normal by most.
Do you wonder how many Jaguars are driven by women or men under 50?
Well, I'm one of them. And I bought mine in my 30s.
Jaguar are targeting a market that simply doesn't exist and, to the extent it does, it's the distinct Britishness and heritage of the marque that attracts customers to it as a luxury brand, just as for RR or Bentley.
The Porsche 993 ad posted the other day got it - a fast car on a winding road. A good driver - note the *not* piling on the brakes at the obstacle (looking ahead). A connection across the generations. The implication of the new generation taking on the joy of Porsche.
Neoliberalism is contemporarily used to refer to market-oriented reform policies such as "eliminating price controls, deregulating capital markets, lowering trade barriers" and reducing, especially through privatization and austerity, state influence in the economy.
The socialist political movement includes political philosophies that originated in the revolutionary movements of the mid-to-late 18th century and out of concern for the social problems that socialists associated with capitalism.[28] By the late 19th century, after the work of Karl Marx and his collaborator Friedrich Engels, socialism had come to signify anti-capitalism and advocacy for a post-capitalist system based on some form of social ownership of the means of production.
Which is SKS closest to
Did you mean the word “Collaborator” 😄
The 19th Century was the “liberal” century. Marx, Lenin et el were over throwing Feudalism, not 21st Century Capitalism. Marx and his “collaborators” stole the word Communist from the French anarchists, and tried to con the world communism was something different than it really was. The term “Socialist” was British - you and many other Britons before you, would always have been better served listening to those who invented the term Socialism, and totally ignoring Marx and his collaborators.
If you have a country that’s feudal and a country that’s been liberalised, how does the same Marxist text book revolution apply to both? It’s bonkers. Marxism made feudal societies more… Capitalist! 😀
I don’t want to get too philosophical and abstract - I’m busy baking at the moment - but you’ll find it’s hard to be a God. Take your Marxist revolution and its Bible and Scientifically worked out instructions somewhere, but rather than steering things in the direction you want, you will just end up going native before getting anywhere.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
Jaguar's an interesting marque. My view for a while has been this: they are not mass-market enough, and not high-end enough, to survive. They make good cars, but they're in a middle ground that is getting squeezed by both ends. They needed either to go back to being really high-end cars (I don't think going to the low end would help).
The £40-70K+ new market is absolutely stuffed with competitors, and whilst Jaguar has an image and a storied history, I'm unsure that's anywhere near enough for it to survive as anything other than a badge.
Is this a reasonable view?
The move to only electric cars is tricky sell against this history / perception / branding. And also against a background where everybody is struggling to sell £100k+ EVs.
Tom Bacon @TomABacon So, I've just spent a bit of time looking into the debate on IHT and farming. I... got a shock. First, a note: I have a friend who runs a family farm. In his view, the whole thing is a something and nothing. 🧵
Tom Bacon @TomABacon · Nov 20 How big a problem is this? Well, almost half of all farms have less than 20 hectares of land. Incredibly, though, the average UK farm is 82 hectares - a staggeringly high sum that indicates how much land is owned by a minority. /6
I’ve come across a bit of that something nothing attitude, though generally with the younger farmers especially those hoping to inherit rather than those in their later years. But plenty are very cross. I think it’s because it’s change: the old certainties are gone and the estate planning will have to change. Notably, gifting the estate 7 years or more before death.
As Roy Jenkins said, “Inheritance tax is, broadly speaking, a voluntary levy paid by those who distrust their heirs more than they dislike the Inland Revenue”.
One thing can be said about Jag campaign, if they wanted to get people talking about them again (as they aren't even making cars at the moment), that certainly worked.
Surrey, Gin and Tonic, Roger Moore in the business class lounge at Heathrow. By the 1990's, more like Alan Partridge, although his favourite was the Rover Vitesse.
Jaguar's an interesting marque. My view for a while has been this: they are not mass-market enough, and not high-end enough, to survive. They make good cars, but they're in a middle ground that is getting squeezed by both ends. They needed either to go back to being really high-end cars (I don't think going to the low end would help).
The £40-70K+ new market is absolutely stuffed with competitors, and whilst Jaguar has an image and a storied history, I'm unsure that's anywhere near enough for it to survive as anything other than a badge.
Is this a reasonable view?
The move to only electric cars is tricky sell against this history / perception / branding. And also against a background where everybody is struggling to sell £100k+ EVs.
They are struggling to sell £100k vehicles to more than a small group.
Tom Bacon @TomABacon So, I've just spent a bit of time looking into the debate on IHT and farming. I... got a shock. First, a note: I have a friend who runs a family farm. In his view, the whole thing is a something and nothing. 🧵
Tom Bacon @TomABacon · Nov 20 How big a problem is this? Well, almost half of all farms have less than 20 hectares of land. Incredibly, though, the average UK farm is 82 hectares - a staggeringly high sum that indicates how much land is owned by a minority. /6
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
As I've said in the past, we have so much more to spend money on. In the mid-1980s, when I was growing up, we did not need mobile phones or contracts. All we needed to watch TV was a TV licence; not expensive contracts to Sky/Netflix/Prime etc. You were very lucky if you had a computer in the home; now everyone needs at least a tablet. Wristwatches have got more complex and expensive. People eat out much more AFACIT, and coffee-shop visits are often obligatory. You do not need many subscriptions to services to start spending £50a month, or more, on them.
Yes, housing and other similar costs to back then may have got more expensive, but I cannot help but think that we simply have too many costs our parents never had, and we may not always need.
Modern life is very expensive - and more so if you let it.
Tom Bacon @TomABacon So, I've just spent a bit of time looking into the debate on IHT and farming. I... got a shock. First, a note: I have a friend who runs a family farm. In his view, the whole thing is a something and nothing. 🧵
Tom Bacon @TomABacon · Nov 20 How big a problem is this? Well, almost half of all farms have less than 20 hectares of land. Incredibly, though, the average UK farm is 82 hectares - a staggeringly high sum that indicates how much land is owned by a minority. /6
I doubt there are many full time farmers getting a living of that.
By comparison Clarkson's farm is 1000 acres.
This seems to be part of the issue when they say only x% will be effected. They are often including hobby farmers and quite a lot of them have done partly for IHT reasons. They have made good money in London, sell up and move to the countryside for quieter life, ticking over doing a bit of small holding farming making artisanal cheese or small amounts of rare breed cattle, and can pass it all on IHT free.
OT but something one needs to know: not only are banks sometimes imposing an upper limit on scam refunds, many are now bringing in an £100 excess deduction.
I think there has to be at least a small element of personal responsibility for where you send your money. As long as the bank didn’t do anything wrong, why should they have to pay for your mistake?
The banks haven't been that great, it must be said. The delays in bringing in checking of the destination account and name were very telling (!). But either way somerthing to know about.
I'm actually surprised at how many scams are for less than £100 - once it's set up, why settle for so little?
I had one where someone managed to spend 2.99 GBP on my Amazon account. Spotted the and rang them. They said it was a scam and they used a small amount first hoping it was not noticed. Then they’d spend big,after a few days,
I had one where they ordered chocolates , car air fresheners, putty and a few other items to my home address, sent money e-cards to themselves. We enjoyed the chocolates etc, never found a use for the modelling putty mind you and Amazon refunded everything
Afternoon Malc.
How's Storm Bert for you? Been much snow in the north?
He's not in the North. Ayrshire is dahn sarf.
No, it's out west as any fule kno. Was out this morning channelling my inner Cherry-Garrard, but no Emperor Penguins though I did have a close communion with the remarkably relaxed dippers in the burn that goes behind the supermarket. But I did score my flu/covid jag
Jaguar's an interesting marque. My view for a while has been this: they are not mass-market enough, and not high-end enough, to survive. They make good cars, but they're in a middle ground that is getting squeezed by both ends. They needed either to go back to being really high-end cars (I don't think going to the low end would help).
The £40-70K+ new market is absolutely stuffed with competitors, and whilst Jaguar has an image and a storied history, I'm unsure that's anywhere near enough for it to survive as anything other than a badge.
Is this a reasonable view?
The move to only electric cars is tricky sell against this history / perception / branding. And also against a background where everybody is struggling to sell £100k+ EVs.
I think it’s very difficult to sell in the “posh but not that posh” bracket unless you have the mass volume and fleet footprint of the German manufacturers. To do so you really need something unique that properly differentiates you from BMW, Mercedes etc. The 3 marques that manage that, to my mind, are:
- LandRover, Jag’s stablemate. The USP being decades of bossing the posh 4x4 market before SUVs became the norm. - Tesla, because of its head start in EV and because it’s the only make with Silicon Valley branding, like the iPhone for cars - Volvo (XC60 and 90) as the sine qua non of the safe, good for kids, feel nice about the planet choice
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
100% true. It's a myth that revolutions are mostly fronted by working-class people. They're almost always propelled by disgruntled middle-class people whose expectations haven't been fulfilled.
Trump is the best example of that. He won on the back of $50-60k earners who are left with less than $500 per month after living expenses. They are angry at the government and Trump is offering a way out. Not it's going to work but people will take a punt on anything if they think it's better than today.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
That's a good analysis.
I'm astonished at how extreme I find the views of some of my peer group but they seem to be seen as normal by most.
Do you wonder how many Jaguars are driven by women or men under 50?
Well, I'm one of them. And I bought mine in my 30s.
Jaguar are targeting a market that simply doesn't exist and, to the extent it does, it's the distinct Britishness and heritage of the marque that attracts customers to it as a luxury brand, just as for RR or Bentley.
You see: I knew I'd win you round.
You've said exactly what I did.
So under that Royal Blue exterior you've got a sense of humour. Using it you should enjoy the ad. Jaguar have become the Daily Express of motor cars. They aren't selling to women or men under 50 (except you) If you don't like the new ad you're not their target market. They've taken their lead from Virgin and they're aiming for the same result
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
I wonder if some of it is based on relative wealth.
A generation ago the equivalent of £75k might have been 4x average and 0.5x rich, now it might be 2x average and 0.1x rich.
Tom Bacon @TomABacon So, I've just spent a bit of time looking into the debate on IHT and farming. I... got a shock. First, a note: I have a friend who runs a family farm. In his view, the whole thing is a something and nothing. 🧵
Tom Bacon @TomABacon · Nov 20 How big a problem is this? Well, almost half of all farms have less than 20 hectares of land. Incredibly, though, the average UK farm is 82 hectares - a staggeringly high sum that indicates how much land is owned by a minority. /6
I doubt there are many full time farmers getting a living of that.
By comparison Clarkson's farm is 1000 acres.
Depends on what they’re producing. It’s enough to make a living for some orchard fruits (cherries for example), vineyards, market gardening and polytunnel agriculture, poultry, pigs, aquaculture - all of which would count in the averages - but not enough for cattle or sheep, cereals, apples & pears, vegetable crops.
ETA though my neighbours in France have about that amount and graze Charolais cattle, so it’s possible with bovines in the right environment.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
No there's a lot of buyer's remorse among the £50-70k class to voted Labour for the first time in ages or stayed home. They now realise Labour are going to destroy their jobs and tax them into poverty.
It's been a very steep learning curve for those voters and I expect out of the 2m who stayed home or switched Labour we can get 90% of them back and grab 1.5m from reform on the right. That becomes an election winning coalition in 2029 against what I think will be a deeply unpopular Labour government.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
No there's a lot of buyer's remorse among the £50-70k class to voted Labour for the first time in ages or stayed home. They now realise Labour are going to destroy their jobs and tax them into poverty.
It's been a very steep learning curve for those voters and I expect out of the 2m who stayed home or switched Labour we can get 90% of them back and grab 1.5m from reform on the right. That becomes an election winning coalition in 2029 against what I think will be a deeply unpopular Labour government.
That £50-60k bracket gets absolutely hammered every which way and have done for a while now. You are too rich for any benefits, the Tories took away the tax credits, there is the cliff edge with child benefit etc, but £50k a year isn't that much these days, particularly if you are separated with children. And now Labour will contue this e.g. higher council tax is coming.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
My parents and I were close friends with a Russian WHO translator in Denmark who was later alleged by a defector to be a KGB agent (WHO didn't take any action, and we shrugged it off) - he said wryly that his own experience was that he'd come to feel that Scandinavian social democracy was the best balance that could be achieved - generally private ownership but high taxation and strong social support.
Jaguar's an interesting marque. My view for a while has been this: they are not mass-market enough, and not high-end enough, to survive. They make good cars, but they're in a middle ground that is getting squeezed by both ends. They needed either to go back to being really high-end cars (I don't think going to the low end would help).
The £40-70K+ new market is absolutely stuffed with competitors, and whilst Jaguar has an image and a storied history, I'm unsure that's anywhere near enough for it to survive as anything other than a badge.
Is this a reasonable view?
It doesn't matter what market segment you target. What matters is being better than the competition in that market segment.
The switch to EVs is a classic technological transition that creates a big opportunity for new companies and a big challenge for existing companies. It's not surprising to see new companies come to the fore, and for some existing companies to struggle.
Jaguar were already a poor performer in the car market, so they'd have to perform really well to survive the transition. At the moment they've found themselves with no cars to sell and a poor ad.
Unless they have done some surprisingly excellent engineering and development work on the new cars I think it's a question of whether they lose enough money to drag down the Land Rover part of the business too, or just the Jaguar bit dies.
I see the MD of Jaguar, Rawdon Glover, has shown himself up to be a chronic dickhead with a markedly defensive interview in The Times today, calling the negative reaction to his ad - utterly predictably - a "blaze of intolerance". We see, now, how this idiocy was signed off in the first place.
Rattled doesn't come close.
Here's what will happen: he will lose his existing customer base, he won't gain the younger and wealthier one he craves, the brand will fail, and then he'll be sacked:
Is he claiming it's intolerant to mock an advert? ISTR the buffoon in charge of Aberdeen Asset Management tried a similar tack with criticism of their rebrand. Or is he trying to hint that the real reason people don't like the advert is that they're racists? Which rather overlooks the hundreds of non-shit adverts with black people in which people don't mock.
Missed this. Yes.
And you see, now, how this pasts muster in the Boardroom?
The Marketing Director makes a big play of how Jaguar stands for diversity and inclusion for all, and its future brand must reflect that. Maybe few jokes are made about its old-school image, of traditional Jag owners and how male, pale and stale they are. It's suggested there might be some opposition, but that would just be bigotry. The MD backs this message to the hilt, and says he has no time for intolerance.
Now, you're in that Boardroom. You're probably, but not necessarily, a White Male yourself. You've heard all this and you have very serious doubts about the logic of it all.
But, having heard all that, do you speak out? How concerned would be that it'd mark your own personal brand as being DEI-sceptic in the firm? What would that do to your career? Your reputation in the industry?
So, do you try but dress it up as something else, and actually make your input a bit of a cop-out? Or do you gently swallow your doubts, stay silent and wait for the car-crash?
It's a nice narrative you've got there, but speaking as someone who once worked in the marketing department of a large multinational, I'll tell you now that's not how it works.
You are absolutely right that people would be afraid to speak up, but what would happen is the ad would go into testing.
And the testing would come back as extremely divisive if not damaging to the brand. So instead of taking a direct stand against "DEI" in the board meeting, you'd just point to the testing and say "this ad doesn't work".
A major rebrand like this will be tested to within an inch of its life. Which implies that in Jaguar's case either
a) they're aware it's going to be incredibly divisive and decided to run with it anyway, e.g. as a 'last throw of the dice' strategy if the company was going under on its current course.
b) someone very high up overruled the testing and ran with it anyway (usually only possible in a company owned by a maverick or cult of personality type founder)
c) the testing was either not done (dereliction of duty and utter uncompetence if so) or was deliberately bodged (done in such a way or cherry picked to suit a particular narrative, possible, especially if testing is done through an in-house capacity rather than via a third party).
I'm under NDA about a lot of my previous employment, so I can't give you more specific examples. Suffice to say I've been in enough similar situations to know the situation you describe, while plausible, wouldn't be enough to overrule testing. But I have personally been in situations where I have bitten my tongue about campaigns I know are steaming piles of shit and let the testing do the work of getting rid of them for me.
If they were anti-gay views, would you say the same?
If someone didn't agree with homosexuality because of religious views and they were a talented and gifted writer, then yes. If they were arguing for a pogrom against gay people, or violence, then no.
We've got to get away from this idea that if you don't have the right views you are to be denied employment or income.
I hate that form of coercion, which is what it is.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
As I've said in the past, we have so much more to spend money on. In the mid-1980s, when I was growing up, we did not need mobile phones or contracts. All we needed to watch TV was a TV licence; not expensive contracts to Sky/Netflix/Prime etc. You were very lucky if you had a computer in the home; now everyone needs at least a tablet. Wristwatches have got more complex and expensive. People eat out much more AFACIT, and coffee-shop visits are often obligatory. You do not need many subscriptions to services to start spending £50a month, or more, on them.
Yes, housing and other similar costs to back then may have got more expensive, but I cannot help but think that we simply have too many costs our parents never had, and we may not always need.
Modern life is very expensive - and more so if you let it.
Many people will spend up to their financial limit.
They will always find a way to consume more.
And then complain that they haven't got enough money and that its someone else's fault.
Boris Johnson is an example of the mentality at the top end of the income scale.
My parents and I were close friends with a Russian WHO translator in Denmark who was later alleged by a defector to be a KGB agent (WHO didn't take any action, and we shrugged it off) - he said wryly that his own experience was that he'd come to feel that Scandinavian social democracy was the best balance that could be achieved - generally private ownership but high taxation and strong social support.
What do you think about the illiberal turn in their social democratic parties' attitudes to immigration?
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
I wonder if some of it is based on relative wealth.
A generation ago the equivalent of £75k might have been 4x average and 0.5x rich, now it might be 2x average and 0.1x rich.
It's housing costs more than anything else. I remember buying my first flat when I was on about that level of equivalent income 10 or so years ago and what it got then was a nice 2 bedroom duplex in zone 2. Today a £75k salary might get you a 2 bed in an ex-LA in zone 4 or 5.
Compared to my parents generation it's even worse, my dad bought a 4 bedroom semi-detached house in a nice suburb on an junior accountant salary in the mid 90s. Even now a junior accountant will get £35-40k, no one is getting a 4 bedroom semi in London on that kind of salary.
Due to a mixture of NIMBYism and lax legal and illegal immigration housing costs all over the country are just out of control and people aged 25-55 will continue to revolt over this until it is fixed, in the US it has resulted in a second Trump term. We had Brexit already and the Tories got wiped out here and Labour already look shaky because they've got no solution for prices being double what they were 3 years ago for basics.
I see the MD of Jaguar, Rawdon Glover, has shown himself up to be a chronic dickhead with a markedly defensive interview in The Times today, calling the negative reaction to his ad - utterly predictably - a "blaze of intolerance". We see, now, how this idiocy was signed off in the first place.
Rattled doesn't come close.
Here's what will happen: he will lose his existing customer base, he won't gain the younger and wealthier one he craves, the brand will fail, and then he'll be sacked:
Is he claiming it's intolerant to mock an advert? ISTR the buffoon in charge of Aberdeen Asset Management tried a similar tack with criticism of their rebrand. Or is he trying to hint that the real reason people don't like the advert is that they're racists? Which rather overlooks the hundreds of non-shit adverts with black people in which people don't mock.
Missed this. Yes.
And you see, now, how this pasts muster in the Boardroom?
The Marketing Director makes a big play of how Jaguar stands for diversity and inclusion for all, and its future brand must reflect that. Maybe few jokes are made about its old-school image, of traditional Jag owners and how male, pale and stale they are. It's suggested there might be some opposition, but that would just be bigotry. The MD backs this message to the hilt, and says he has no time for intolerance.
Now, you're in that Boardroom. You're probably, but not necessarily, a White Male yourself. You've heard all this and you have very serious doubts about the logic of it all.
But, having heard all that, do you speak out? How concerned would be that it'd mark your own personal brand as being DEI-sceptic in the firm? What would that do to your career? Your reputation in the industry?
So, do you try but dress it up as something else, and actually make your input a bit of a cop-out? Or do you gently swallow your doubts, stay silent and wait for the car-crash?
It's a nice narrative you've got there, but speaking as someone who once worked in the marketing department of a large multinational, I'll tell you now that's not how it works.
You are absolutely right that people would be afraid to speak up, but what would happen is the ad would go into testing.
And the testing would come back as extremely divisive if not damaging to the brand. So instead of taking a direct stand against "DEI" in the board meeting, you'd just point to the testing and say "this ad doesn't work".
A major rebrand like this will be tested to within an inch of its life. Which implies that in Jaguar's case either
a) they're aware it's going to be incredibly divisive and decided to run with it anyway, e.g. as a 'last throw of the dice' strategy if the company was going under on its current course.
b) someone very high up overruled the testing and ran with it anyway (usually only possible in a company owned by a maverick or cult of personality type founder)
c) the testing was either not done (dereliction of duty and utter uncompetence if so) or was deliberately bodged (done in such a way or cherry picked to suit a particular narrative, possible, especially if testing is done through an in-house capacity rather than via a third party).
I'm under NDA about a lot of my previous employment, so I can't give you more specific examples. Suffice to say I've been in enough similar situations to know the situation you describe, while plausible, wouldn't be enough to overrule testing. But I have personally been in situations where I have bitten my tongue about campaigns I know are steaming piles of shit and let the testing do the work of getting rid of them for me.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
As I've said in the past, we have so much more to spend money on. In the mid-1980s, when I was growing up, we did not need mobile phones or contracts. All we needed to watch TV was a TV licence; not expensive contracts to Sky/Netflix/Prime etc. You were very lucky if you had a computer in the home; now everyone needs at least a tablet. Wristwatches have got more complex and expensive. People eat out much more AFACIT, and coffee-shop visits are often obligatory. You do not need many subscriptions to services to start spending £50a month, or more, on them.
Yes, housing and other similar costs to back then may have got more expensive, but I cannot help but think that we simply have too many costs our parents never had, and we may not always need.
Modern life is very expensive - and more so if you let it.
Yes. I was trying to think of a single word to sum up something like that. Companies have had a few more decades experience in learning how to sell to us, and they seem quite adept at making sure everyone spends all their money, regardless of how much of it they have.
Edit: though, to pick up on one point, coffee shop visits have replaced pub visits for a lot of people. Similarly Netflix stands in for visiting the cinema. It's not like people in the 80s lived like frugal monks.
Jaguar's an interesting marque. My view for a while has been this: they are not mass-market enough, and not high-end enough, to survive. They make good cars, but they're in a middle ground that is getting squeezed by both ends. They needed either to go back to being really high-end cars (I don't think going to the low end would help).
The £40-70K+ new market is absolutely stuffed with competitors, and whilst Jaguar has an image and a storied history, I'm unsure that's anywhere near enough for it to survive as anything other than a badge.
Is this a reasonable view?
It doesn't matter what market segment you target. What matters is being better than the competition in that market segment.
The switch to EVs is a classic technological transition that creates a big opportunity for new companies and a big challenge for existing companies. It's not surprising to see new companies come to the fore, and for some existing companies to struggle.
Jaguar were already a poor performer in the car market, so they'd have to perform really well to survive the transition. At the moment they've found themselves with no cars to sell and a poor ad.
Unless they have done some surprisingly excellent engineering and development work on the new cars I think it's a question of whether they lose enough money to drag down the Land Rover part of the business too, or just the Jaguar bit dies.
I actually really liked the I-Pace, although it was a bit expensive.
I see the MD of Jaguar, Rawdon Glover, has shown himself up to be a chronic dickhead with a markedly defensive interview in The Times today, calling the negative reaction to his ad - utterly predictably - a "blaze of intolerance". We see, now, how this idiocy was signed off in the first place.
Rattled doesn't come close.
Here's what will happen: he will lose his existing customer base, he won't gain the younger and wealthier one he craves, the brand will fail, and then he'll be sacked:
Is he claiming it's intolerant to mock an advert? ISTR the buffoon in charge of Aberdeen Asset Management tried a similar tack with criticism of their rebrand. Or is he trying to hint that the real reason people don't like the advert is that they're racists? Which rather overlooks the hundreds of non-shit adverts with black people in which people don't mock.
Missed this. Yes.
And you see, now, how this pasts muster in the Boardroom?
The Marketing Director makes a big play of how Jaguar stands for diversity and inclusion for all, and its future brand must reflect that. Maybe few jokes are made about its old-school image, of traditional Jag owners and how male, pale and stale they are. It's suggested there might be some opposition, but that would just be bigotry. The MD backs this message to the hilt, and says he has no time for intolerance.
Now, you're in that Boardroom. You're probably, but not necessarily, a White Male yourself. You've heard all this and you have very serious doubts about the logic of it all.
But, having heard all that, do you speak out? How concerned would be that it'd mark your own personal brand as being DEI-sceptic in the firm? What would that do to your career? Your reputation in the industry?
So, do you try but dress it up as something else, and actually make your input a bit of a cop-out? Or do you gently swallow your doubts, stay silent and wait for the car-crash?
It's a nice narrative you've got there, but speaking as someone who once worked in the marketing department of a large multinational, I'll tell you now that's not how it works.
You are absolutely right that people would be afraid to speak up, but what would happen is the ad would go into testing.
And the testing would come back as extremely divisive if not damaging to the brand. So instead of taking a direct stand against "DEI" in the board meeting, you'd just point to the testing and say "this ad doesn't work".
A major rebrand like this will be tested to within an inch of its life. Which implies that in Jaguar's case either
a) they're aware it's going to be incredibly divisive and decided to run with it anyway, e.g. as a 'last throw of the dice' strategy if the company was going under on its current course.
b) someone very high up overruled the testing and ran with it anyway (usually only possible in a company owned by a maverick or cult of personality type founder)
c) the testing was either not done (dereliction of duty and utter uncompetence if so) or was deliberately bodged (done in such a way or cherry picked to suit a particular narrative, possible, especially if testing is done through an in-house capacity rather than via a third party).
I'm under NDA about a lot of my previous employment, so I can't give you more specific examples. Suffice to say I've been in enough similar situations to know the situation you describe, while plausible, wouldn't be enough to overrule testing. But I have personally been in situations where I have bitten my tongue about campaigns I know are steaming piles of shit and let the testing do the work of getting rid of them for me.
NASA used to conduct a space suit glance competition each year.
The current space suit gloves are horrible - astronauts have been known to lose fingernails.
The finalists are tested in evacuated glove boxes.
Each and every year, the winning designs were rejected by the space suit division on NASA. For being the wrong answer.
This is why astronauts on the space station are using 40 year old space suits.
Tom Bacon @TomABacon So, I've just spent a bit of time looking into the debate on IHT and farming. I... got a shock. First, a note: I have a friend who runs a family farm. In his view, the whole thing is a something and nothing. 🧵
Tom Bacon @TomABacon · Nov 20 How big a problem is this? Well, almost half of all farms have less than 20 hectares of land. Incredibly, though, the average UK farm is 82 hectares - a staggeringly high sum that indicates how much land is owned by a minority. /6
I’ve come across a bit of that something nothing attitude, though generally with the younger farmers especially those hoping to inherit rather than those in their later years. But plenty are very cross. I think it’s because it’s change: the old certainties are gone and the estate planning will have to change. Notably, gifting the estate 7 years or more before death.
As Roy Jenkins said, “Inheritance tax is, broadly speaking, a voluntary levy paid by those who distrust their heirs more than they dislike the Inland Revenue”.
Roy Jenkins as Chancellor gave a very nice Estate Duty (as it was called then), tax break to the upper classes, by exempting country houses and works of art that were made available to public view, for a number of days each year.
As it happens, most country houses have always been available to public view, if you ask the owner or manager, (that's how the Bennetts get to be shown around Pemberley), but Roy Jenkins turned it into something huge.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
As I've said in the past, we have so much more to spend money on. In the mid-1980s, when I was growing up, we did not need mobile phones or contracts. All we needed to watch TV was a TV licence; not expensive contracts to Sky/Netflix/Prime etc. You were very lucky if you had a computer in the home; now everyone needs at least a tablet. Wristwatches have got more complex and expensive. People eat out much more AFACIT, and coffee-shop visits are often obligatory. You do not need many subscriptions to services to start spending £50a month, or more, on them.
Yes, housing and other similar costs to back then may have got more expensive, but I cannot help but think that we simply have too many costs our parents never had, and we may not always need.
Modern life is very expensive - and more so if you let it.
Add to this that credit is extremely easy to obtain. Too easy, in my opinion.
I have 3 credit cards, for example. The credit limit amounts to almost my annual income. And I get offers of more all the time.
The ability of people on low to medium income to get into debt through credit and gambling should be, in my opinion, an absolute national shame
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
As I've said in the past, we have so much more to spend money on. In the mid-1980s, when I was growing up, we did not need mobile phones or contracts. All we needed to watch TV was a TV licence; not expensive contracts to Sky/Netflix/Prime etc. You were very lucky if you had a computer in the home; now everyone needs at least a tablet. Wristwatches have got more complex and expensive. People eat out much more AFACIT, and coffee-shop visits are often obligatory. You do not need many subscriptions to services to start spending £50a month, or more, on them.
Yes, housing and other similar costs to back then may have got more expensive, but I cannot help but think that we simply have too many costs our parents never had, and we may not always need.
Modern life is very expensive - and more so if you let it.
Add to this that credit is extremely easy to obtain. Too easy, in my opinion.
I have 3 credit cards, for example. The credit limit amounts to almost my annual income. And I get offers of more all the time.
The ability of people on low to medium income to get into debt through credit and gambling should be, in my opinion, an absolute national shame
Car finance....I am surprised we haven't had a massive crash due to it.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
He was an Orange Booker, when the oranges wrote the book.
I see the MD of Jaguar, Rawdon Glover, has shown himself up to be a chronic dickhead with a markedly defensive interview in The Times today, calling the negative reaction to his ad - utterly predictably - a "blaze of intolerance". We see, now, how this idiocy was signed off in the first place.
Rattled doesn't come close.
Here's what will happen: he will lose his existing customer base, he won't gain the younger and wealthier one he craves, the brand will fail, and then he'll be sacked:
Is he claiming it's intolerant to mock an advert? ISTR the buffoon in charge of Aberdeen Asset Management tried a similar tack with criticism of their rebrand. Or is he trying to hint that the real reason people don't like the advert is that they're racists? Which rather overlooks the hundreds of non-shit adverts with black people in which people don't mock.
Missed this. Yes.
And you see, now, how this pasts muster in the Boardroom?
The Marketing Director makes a big play of how Jaguar stands for diversity and inclusion for all, and its future brand must reflect that. Maybe few jokes are made about its old-school image, of traditional Jag owners and how male, pale and stale they are. It's suggested there might be some opposition, but that would just be bigotry. The MD backs this message to the hilt, and says he has no time for intolerance.
Now, you're in that Boardroom. You're probably, but not necessarily, a White Male yourself. You've heard all this and you have very serious doubts about the logic of it all.
But, having heard all that, do you speak out? How concerned would be that it'd mark your own personal brand as being DEI-sceptic in the firm? What would that do to your career? Your reputation in the industry?
So, do you try but dress it up as something else, and actually make your input a bit of a cop-out? Or do you gently swallow your doubts, stay silent and wait for the car-crash?
It's a nice narrative you've got there, but speaking as someone who once worked in the marketing department of a large multinational, I'll tell you now that's not how it works.
You are absolutely right that people would be afraid to speak up, but what would happen is the ad would go into testing.
And the testing would come back as extremely divisive if not damaging to the brand. So instead of taking a direct stand against "DEI" in the board meeting, you'd just point to the testing and say "this ad doesn't work".
A major rebrand like this will be tested to within an inch of its life. Which implies that in Jaguar's case either
a) they're aware it's going to be incredibly divisive and decided to run with it anyway, e.g. as a 'last throw of the dice' strategy if the company was going under on its current course.
b) someone very high up overruled the testing and ran with it anyway (usually only possible in a company owned by a maverick or cult of personality type founder)
c) the testing was either not done (dereliction of duty and utter uncompetence if so) or was deliberately bodged (done in such a way or cherry picked to suit a particular narrative, possible, especially if testing is done through an in-house capacity rather than via a third party).
I'm under NDA about a lot of my previous employment, so I can't give you more specific examples. Suffice to say I've been in enough similar situations to know the situation you describe, while plausible, wouldn't be enough to overrule testing. But I have personally been in situations where I have bitten my tongue about campaigns I know are steaming piles of shit and let the testing do the work of getting rid of them for me.
Of those options I think it will be a mixture of 2 and 3, a "visionary" leader who will only do the kinds of tests and user research that will give the answers they want to see. After watching the new CMO speak in that video he gives exactly those vibes. The kind of leadership who will specifically exclude negative voices and not allow any negativity around their agenda to be heard. Toxic positivity at 11/10 is the answer here.
They've gone from a forgotten old people's brand to a brand that gets ridiculed for trashing its legacy and the initial reaction to design teasers are very negative so it's not as though a good car will pull them out of the hole in which they now find themselves.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
As I've said in the past, we have so much more to spend money on. In the mid-1980s, when I was growing up, we did not need mobile phones or contracts. All we needed to watch TV was a TV licence; not expensive contracts to Sky/Netflix/Prime etc. You were very lucky if you had a computer in the home; now everyone needs at least a tablet. Wristwatches have got more complex and expensive. People eat out much more AFACIT, and coffee-shop visits are often obligatory. You do not need many subscriptions to services to start spending £50a month, or more, on them.
Yes, housing and other similar costs to back then may have got more expensive, but I cannot help but think that we simply have too many costs our parents never had, and we may not always need.
Modern life is very expensive - and more so if you let it.
Yes. I was trying to think of a single word to sum up something like that. Companies have had a few more decades experience in learning how to sell to us, and they seem quite adept at making sure everyone spends all their money, regardless of how much of it they have.
Edit: though, to pick up on one point, coffee shop visits have replaced pub visits for a lot of people. Similarly Netflix stands in for visiting the cinema. It's not like people in the 80s lived like frugal monks.
Not one word, but "Desire inflation"? We have so much more stuff we can buy, and is desirable but not necessary, than was the case.
Good point about pubs and coffee shops; except I guess people also drink alcohol at home instead of the pub. Have drinking levels gone down over the decades?
And I'd say comparatively, people in the 1980s were living like frugal monks. My son (10 yo) cannot imagine how I coped not having a computer before I was 12. And I didn't get on the Internet until I was 16!
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
I wonder if some of it is based on relative wealth.
A generation ago the equivalent of £75k might have been 4x average and 0.5x rich, now it might be 2x average and 0.1x rich.
I started work in 2004 and what was £75k then would be £132k now.
Inflation and fiscal drag does a lot to decimate real-terms pay.
I see the MD of Jaguar, Rawdon Glover, has shown himself up to be a chronic dickhead with a markedly defensive interview in The Times today, calling the negative reaction to his ad - utterly predictably - a "blaze of intolerance". We see, now, how this idiocy was signed off in the first place.
Rattled doesn't come close.
Here's what will happen: he will lose his existing customer base, he won't gain the younger and wealthier one he craves, the brand will fail, and then he'll be sacked:
Is he claiming it's intolerant to mock an advert? ISTR the buffoon in charge of Aberdeen Asset Management tried a similar tack with criticism of their rebrand. Or is he trying to hint that the real reason people don't like the advert is that they're racists? Which rather overlooks the hundreds of non-shit adverts with black people in which people don't mock.
Missed this. Yes.
And you see, now, how this pasts muster in the Boardroom?
The Marketing Director makes a big play of how Jaguar stands for diversity and inclusion for all, and its future brand must reflect that. Maybe few jokes are made about its old-school image, of traditional Jag owners and how male, pale and stale they are. It's suggested there might be some opposition, but that would just be bigotry. The MD backs this message to the hilt, and says he has no time for intolerance.
Now, you're in that Boardroom. You're probably, but not necessarily, a White Male yourself. You've heard all this and you have very serious doubts about the logic of it all.
But, having heard all that, do you speak out? How concerned would be that it'd mark your own personal brand as being DEI-sceptic in the firm? What would that do to your career? Your reputation in the industry?
So, do you try but dress it up as something else, and actually make your input a bit of a cop-out? Or do you gently swallow your doubts, stay silent and wait for the car-crash?
It's a nice narrative you've got there, but speaking as someone who once worked in the marketing department of a large multinational, I'll tell you now that's not how it works.
You are absolutely right that people would be afraid to speak up, but what would happen is the ad would go into testing.
And the testing would come back as extremely divisive if not damaging to the brand. So instead of taking a direct stand against "DEI" in the board meeting, you'd just point to the testing and say "this ad doesn't work".
A major rebrand like this will be tested to within an inch of its life. Which implies that in Jaguar's case either
a) they're aware it's going to be incredibly divisive and decided to run with it anyway, e.g. as a 'last throw of the dice' strategy if the company was going under on its current course.
b) someone very high up overruled the testing and ran with it anyway (usually only possible in a company owned by a maverick or cult of personality type founder)
c) the testing was either not done (dereliction of duty and utter uncompetence if so) or was deliberately bodged (done in such a way or cherry picked to suit a particular narrative, possible, especially if testing is done through an in-house capacity rather than via a third party).
I'm under NDA about a lot of my previous employment, so I can't give you more specific examples. Suffice to say I've been in enough similar situations to know the situation you describe, while plausible, wouldn't be enough to overrule testing. But I have personally been in situations where I have bitten my tongue about campaigns I know are steaming piles of shit and let the testing do the work of getting rid of them for me.
Yes, you make some very fair points.
You are also absolutely correct that in my two previous roles in marketing departments, people would be afraid to speak out and be branded a DEI-sceptic.
When I first joined PB I was super cautious about avoiding any kind of revealing information about myself as to be labelled right wing / pro-brexit at the time would have been utter career death.
I left the industry around Covid and now run my own business so am no longer afraid of losing my job if doxxed (though I still appreciate my privacy!)
To give you an idea of the madness, I once had casting approval on an ad rejected by a higher up for being insufficiently diverse. The ad featured three people: a mum, dad and daughter, so a family. Meaning that if you had one minority character, you would have to feature not only a minority, but also a mixed race family, which meant we got sent literal death threats when the ad aired. But I can tell you this process is why a disproportionate number of ads these days feature mixed race families.
I personally found it maddening (not the existence of mixed race families, but the constant box ticking), but conspiracy theorists tend to assume it's 'woke ad agencies pushing diversity on us' when in fact it's tick box marketing departments insisting there be at least one ethnic minority in every ad, with the result that ads that feature families always end up being mixed race. Bureaucracy, not conspiracy, as some seem to think.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
I think that's what a lot of Jaguar fans have picked up on: the company is dominated by such types who deliberately want to triangulate against them for those reasons.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
That's a good analysis.
I'm astonished at how extreme I find the views of some of my peer group but they seem to be seen as normal by most.
Do you wonder how many Jaguars are driven by women or men under 50?
Well, I'm one of them. And I bought mine in my 30s.
Jaguar are targeting a market that simply doesn't exist and, to the extent it does, it's the distinct Britishness and heritage of the marque that attracts customers to it as a luxury brand, just as for RR or Bentley.
You see: I knew I'd win you round.
You've said exactly what I did.
So under that Royal Blue exterior you've got a sense of humour. Using it you should enjoy the ad. Jaguar have become the Daily Express of motor cars. They aren't selling to women or men under 50 (except you) If you don't like the new ad you're not their target market. They've taken their lead from Virgin and they're aiming for the same result
Everyone doesnt like the ad.
So we can conclude their target market doesn't exist.
My parents and I were close friends with a Russian WHO translator in Denmark who was later alleged by a defector to be a KGB agent (WHO didn't take any action, and we shrugged it off) - he said wryly that his own experience was that he'd come to feel that Scandinavian social democracy was the best balance that could be achieved - generally private ownership but high taxation and strong social support.
What do you think about the illiberal turn in their social democratic parties' attitudes to immigration?
A bit inevitable, I think - the previous position welcoming all immigration was sadly impractical. Giving priority to people in desperate need plus people willing to integrate (ideally both) makes sense.
A lot of woke-ists have quite right-wing views on economics, although they usually keep them quiet. Big John is right on that part of it. It's only when they're hit with an unexpected tax, or someone decides to built low-cost housing in their back yard, that you find out about those views.
On topic, why would Farage want to lead the Tories? It is already a 50/50 toss up who will lead the forthcoming Tory-Reform administration. Reform could be running Wales soon. Kemi is going to have to be brilliant and make the most of all her opportunities not to see the Tories go the way of the Liberals.
I agree, I'd say there's a real risk the Tories become the UUP to Reform's DUP.
However, and it's a big however, the Tories can also fish for LD (home counties) and Labour (switchers and floating voters as well) so they can face and pull in multiple directions, if they get the mix and tone right.
Not sure Badenoch is quite the right candidate to go fishing for LD and centrist Labour votes. Davey is a more conservative leader and overall safer bet.
Davey is anything but conservative. He's a socialist in a yellow suit with a flying bird on it.
Not at all.
For example the LDs oppose the abolition of AR on farms and imposition of VAT on private schools.
Davey certainly wasn't a Socialist when in government either.
It will be tough to expand the number of LD seats at the next GE, as there will surely be some dead cat bounce for the Tories, but it isn't impossible. There is not a lot of love out there for either of the big two parties. We may well be in one of those decades where the tectonic plates of party politics shift.
I suggest you read the interviews with him on his background and political philosophy, which was so left-wing the interviewer even asked him why he didn't join the Labour Party then - to which he gave some weakish answer about how he didn't like its tradition.
He's a Lefty through and through.
Don't confuse political opportunism for where his real sympathies lie, and he'd be delighted to prop up a Labour administration that fell short next time.
One of the interesting curiosities of modern politics is that Conservatives don’t look or act conservative. It’s all topsy turvey
On the contrary they seem determined to trash the country rather than conserve it.
It's to do now, with party loyalty running vertically through classes, rather than horizontally, across them.
People are still used to the idea of upper middle class people being overwhelmingly Conservative, and working class people being mainly Labour (with a substantial Conservative minority).
When in reality, the Conservatives have very little in common now, with much of the Establishment, and Labour have very little in common now, with broad swathes of working class Britain.
And, the same is true of the US, France, and other rich world democracies. Quite often now, the most solidly left-leaning constituencies are the most well-heeled.
It's fascinating to consider why that's the case.
Luxury beliefs of the university educated, especially women. They have to distinguish themselves from the hoi poloi who have always had small-c conservative views. Used to be done by owning a Jaguar, etc.
Luxury beliefs come a lot cheaper than luxury living or even traditional middle class living in southern England.
I wonder how much resentment there is among many recent graduates that they're not going to get the lifestyle they expected, that their parents had or what many of their age group who didn't go to university now has.
There's a lot of resentment around. Saw a Mumsnet post from a 40-something who had worked their way up to an income of £75k, and feels their standard of living doesn't match up to their parents who had a similar inflation-adjusted salary.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
I wonder if some of it is based on relative wealth.
A generation ago the equivalent of £75k might have been 4x average and 0.5x rich, now it might be 2x average and 0.1x rich.
That's some of it.
It was one of the problems with Bidenomics. Raising the pay of people at the very bottom may be the right thing to do, but it creates fear and resentment one step up. People working in McDonald's get more, but people eating there have to pay more.
But also, it's the cost of housing. At the moment, any increases in pay are likely to cause rents and house prices to go up.
The question, how much has Ukraine captured, if any. And how costly has the defence of those 150 sq.miles been for Ukraine.
That’s not the question.
They have been in defence: that’s the nature of war. Ukraine needs to hold on until Russia is exhausted. The home team always has an advantage.
Russia is trying to maximise their negotiating position at the moment. The interesting thing is they’ve not prioritised recapturing Kursk.
Given the number of deadlines that Putin has given to recapture the Kursk territory it would suggest that Russia has prioritised it but failed to make progress.
The question, how much has Ukraine captured, if any. And how costly has the defence of those 150 sq.miles been for Ukraine.
That’s not the question.
They have been in defence: that’s the nature of war. Ukraine needs to hold on until Russia is exhausted. The home team always has an advantage.
Russia is trying to maximise their negotiating position at the moment. The interesting thing is they’ve not prioritised recapturing Kursk.
Given the number of deadlines that Putin has given to recapture the Kursk territory it would suggest that Russia has prioritised it but failed to make progress.
The price for getting Kursk back is going to be Ukraine's NATO membership.
Comments
Largely, nothing sl , other than the promise of a more monocultural society, and other culture wars.
That's not going to close the income gap any further, but does offer large financial interests to cash in on the back of regulation, through blaming metropolitan liberals for the social effects of Thatcherism and Reaganism.
Hence the Legatum Institute is behind GB News, for example.
This government is socialist not neoliberal.
The stories that hit the headlines are the pensioner who loses £20,000. But the kind of person who loses that much is likely to be rather rich anyway, possibly through a mortgage-free home.
I think that "elite overproduction" is one reason. The Greens in particular, pick up support from people who are very well-educated, but in relatively poorly-paying occupations. Revolutions are almost always driven by people who are just outside the magic circle of power and wealth, rather than the genuinely poor.
So, you have a lot of elite-adjacent people who really detest their own society, along with its history and culture.
Also economics isn't really the dividing line it once was. No genuintely socialist party can expect to come to power now, and nor can any party that believes in radically cutting back the public sector. A form of social democracy prevails in most rich world democracies. So, people seek other dividing lines.
That's a good analysis.
I'm astonished at how extreme I find the views of some of my peer group but they seem to be seen as normal by most.
But, it will come.
It combines a love of the corporate state, hence its support of big finance, with a resentment of successful 'little people', hence its hostility to private schools and family farms.
But, I'd argue they cut into bone not fat in justice, home affairs and defence.
Nigel Farage political career and achievements has mutilated my country. The fact he is still around as a player is an insanity.
I think 4-5 years ago Warner Bros would have absolutely distanced themselves from her views:
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/warner-bros-defends-jk-rowling-trans-views-l9dg0hn60
Incidentally, Green votes don't really follow a eductation level pattern in the same way Labour/Tory/Reform votes do. That might be because they contain two distinct groups - Gaza protest and, err, people like me.
*note that while education level is a strong predictor of Tory/Labour vote patterns, social grade is not.
As was inviting the Bolsheviks to similar events in Imperial Russia.
Edgy, feel the frisson of violence….
He misidentifies this as neoliberalism, but I think what he is really referring to is a vast appropriation of funds from the non wealthy to the wealthy. Real neoliberalism would create a very fluid and mobile economy and society with lots of competition, which is not what the huge corporations want at all.
I wouldn't say very right-wing but they certainly squeel if the tax rises hit them.
I remember a conversation with a fellow soft Conservative back in 2014 who was annoyed Osborne only cut top-rate tax to 45p rather than 40p. He was affluent, lived in London, and worked for a Big4 accountant, but he was excoriating about any concerns on immigration, the EU, and detested ordinary Conservative activists. We actually argued about it with quite some passion.
I didn't realise it at the time but that was a real canary down the coal mine.
I think aspects of its secret distaste for Britain, its culture and its heritage are also creeping into its foreign policy.
Will keep you updated!
Are they somehow tied up with WEF?
A converse example example is 1974-1979 - Labour started off with a giveaway budget, and seemed in a strong place politically at first, but that giveaway budget, where more prudence had actually been required, was the root cause of all the pain to come that shredded them.
I'm astonished at how extreme I find the views of some of my peer group but they seem to be seen as normal by most.
Do you wonder how many Jaguars are driven by women or men under 50?
Well, I'm one of them. And I bought mine in my 30s.
Jaguar are targeting a market that simply doesn't exist and, to the extent it does, it's the distinct Britishness and heritage of the marque that attracts customers to it as a luxury brand, just as for RR or Bentley.
If you’ve been cancelled, what chance have the rest of us?
Today has 1.6% of the light intensity compared to yesterday.
Bring back the coldth!
Well, I'm one of them. And I bought mine in my 30s.
Jaguar are targeting a market that simply doesn't exist and, to the extent it does, it's the distinct Britishness and heritage of the marque that attracts customers to it as a luxury brand, just as for RR or Bentley.
Okay to be fair, I agree with you. There is a place for BJO and his arguments and point of view. Maybe the actual funny bit is he is so alone, the rest of the PB lefties are “they are my government and I’m right behind them.”
There often appears a world of difference between you and Casino - but how often in UK politics have you both voted for same people and party?
Time for PR, and people can more honestly go their separate ways?
It's odd that in his 50's Leon seems to have only just discovered that November in Britain is a grim month. 😂
But that's the main reason we'll all put up Christmas decorations and festive lights over the next few weeks, to brighten the place up, lol?
The socialist political movement includes political philosophies that originated in the revolutionary movements of the mid-to-late 18th century and out of concern for the social problems that socialists associated with capitalism.[28] By the late 19th century, after the work of Karl Marx and his collaborator Friedrich Engels, socialism had come to signify anti-capitalism and advocacy for a post-capitalist system based on some form of social ownership of the means of production.
Which is SKS closest to
If you see Bert, tell him.
Edit: Some automation would be good here.
We enjoyed the chocolates etc, never found a use for the modelling putty mind you and Amazon refunded everything
Tom Bacon
@TomABacon
So, I've just spent a bit of time looking into the debate on IHT and farming. I... got a shock. First, a note: I have a friend who runs a family farm. In his view, the whole thing is a something and nothing. 🧵
Tom Bacon
@TomABacon
·
Nov 20
How big a problem is this? Well, almost half of all farms have less than 20 hectares of land. Incredibly, though, the average UK farm is 82 hectares - a staggeringly high sum that indicates how much land is owned by a minority. /6
https://x.com/TomABacon/status/1859385352886362192
How's Storm Bert for you? Been much snow in the north?
Jaguar are targeting a market that simply doesn't exist and, to the extent it does, it's the distinct Britishness and heritage of the marque that attracts customers to it as a luxury brand, just as for RR or Bentley.
You see: I knew I'd win you round.
You've said exactly what I did.
Which is the why the even if you do get hit with the IHT bill, but it will only cost you say £20k a year every year for 10 years is grinding the gears of a load of farmers, as its another bill on top of a load of other bills / increases, when they aren't making mega bucks in the first place.
https://archive.ph/iwvtW
(I note that the guidelines discussed by the T require that such staff have a Gender Recognition Certificate.
There are enough detailed issues around that to constitute an entire rabbit warren, so I'm not going there.
Govt GRC processes are here:
https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/what-documents-you-need )
The £40-70K+ new market is absolutely stuffed with competitors, and whilst Jaguar has an image and a storied history, I'm unsure that's anywhere near enough for it to survive as anything other than a badge.
Is this a reasonable view?
The Porsche 993 ad posted the other day got it - a fast car on a winding road. A good driver - note the *not* piling on the brakes at the obstacle (looking ahead). A connection across the generations. The implication of the new generation taking on the joy of Porsche.
From past to present to future
The 19th Century was the “liberal” century. Marx, Lenin et el were over throwing Feudalism, not 21st Century Capitalism. Marx and his “collaborators” stole the word Communist from the French anarchists, and tried to con the world communism was something different than it really was. The term “Socialist” was British - you and many other Britons before you, would always have been better served listening to those who invented the term Socialism, and totally ignoring Marx and his collaborators.
If you have a country that’s feudal and a country that’s been liberalised, how does the same Marxist text book revolution apply to both? It’s bonkers. Marxism made feudal societies more… Capitalist! 😀
I don’t want to get too philosophical and abstract - I’m busy baking at the moment - but you’ll find it’s hard to be a God. Take your Marxist revolution and its Bible and Scientifically worked out instructions somewhere, but rather than steering things in the direction you want, you will just end up going native before getting anywhere.
We could argue about why that is (housing?) and what to do about it, but people aren't happy and the spectacular Tory defeat was not the cathartic experience the country was looking for.
As Roy Jenkins said, “Inheritance tax is, broadly speaking, a voluntary levy paid by those who distrust their heirs more than they dislike the Inland Revenue”.
On topic. No chance.
Surrey, Gin and Tonic, Roger Moore in the business class lounge at Heathrow. By the 1990's, more like Alan Partridge, although his favourite was the Rover Vitesse.
I doubt there are many full time farmers getting a living of that.
By comparison Clarkson's farm is 1000 acres.
Yes, housing and other similar costs to back then may have got more expensive, but I cannot help but think that we simply have too many costs our parents never had, and we may not always need.
Modern life is very expensive - and more so if you let it.
But thawing now.
- LandRover, Jag’s stablemate. The USP being decades of bossing the posh 4x4 market before SUVs became the norm.
- Tesla, because of its head start in EV and because it’s the only make with Silicon Valley branding, like the iPhone for cars
- Volvo (XC60 and 90) as the sine qua non of the safe, good for kids, feel nice about the planet choice
You see: I knew I'd win you round.
You've said exactly what I did.
So under that Royal Blue exterior you've got a sense of humour. Using it you should enjoy the ad. Jaguar have become the Daily Express of motor cars. They aren't selling to women or men under 50 (except you) If you don't like the new ad you're not their target market. They've taken their lead from Virgin and they're aiming for the same result
A generation ago the equivalent of £75k might have been 4x average and 0.5x rich, now it might be 2x average and 0.1x rich.
ETA though my neighbours in France have about that amount and graze Charolais cattle, so it’s possible with bovines in the right environment.
It's been a very steep learning curve for those voters and I expect out of the 2m who stayed home or switched Labour we can get 90% of them back and grab 1.5m from reform on the right. That becomes an election winning coalition in 2029 against what I think will be a deeply unpopular Labour government.
The switch to EVs is a classic technological transition that creates a big opportunity for new companies and a big challenge for existing companies. It's not surprising to see new companies come to the fore, and for some existing companies to struggle.
Jaguar were already a poor performer in the car market, so they'd have to perform really well to survive the transition. At the moment they've found themselves with no cars to sell and a poor ad.
Unless they have done some surprisingly excellent engineering and development work on the new cars I think it's a question of whether they lose enough money to drag down the Land Rover part of the business too, or just the Jaguar bit dies.
You are absolutely right that people would be afraid to speak up, but what would happen is the ad would go into testing.
And the testing would come back as extremely divisive if not damaging to the brand. So instead of taking a direct stand against "DEI" in the board meeting, you'd just point to the testing and say "this ad doesn't work".
A major rebrand like this will be tested to within an inch of its life. Which implies that in Jaguar's case either
a) they're aware it's going to be incredibly divisive and decided to run with it anyway, e.g. as a 'last throw of the dice' strategy if the company was going under on its current course.
b) someone very high up overruled the testing and ran with it anyway (usually only possible in a company owned by a maverick or cult of personality type founder)
c) the testing was either not done (dereliction of duty and utter uncompetence if so) or was deliberately bodged (done in such a way or cherry picked to suit a particular narrative, possible, especially if testing is done through an in-house capacity rather than via a third party).
I'm under NDA about a lot of my previous employment, so I can't give you more specific examples. Suffice to say I've been in enough similar situations to know the situation you describe, while plausible, wouldn't be enough to overrule testing. But I have personally been in situations where I have bitten my tongue about campaigns I know are steaming piles of shit and let the testing do the work of getting rid of them for me.
We've got to get away from this idea that if you don't have the right views you are to be denied employment or income.
I hate that form of coercion, which is what it is.
They will always find a way to consume more.
And then complain that they haven't got enough money and that its someone else's fault.
Boris Johnson is an example of the mentality at the top end of the income scale.
Compared to my parents generation it's even worse, my dad bought a 4 bedroom semi-detached house in a nice suburb on an junior accountant salary in the mid 90s. Even now a junior accountant will get £35-40k, no one is getting a 4 bedroom semi in London on that kind of salary.
Due to a mixture of NIMBYism and lax legal and illegal immigration housing costs all over the country are just out of control and people aged 25-55 will continue to revolt over this until it is fixed, in the US it has resulted in a second Trump term. We had Brexit already and the Tories got wiped out here and Labour already look shaky because they've got no solution for prices being double what they were 3 years ago for basics.
Edit: though, to pick up on one point, coffee shop visits have replaced pub visits for a lot of people. Similarly Netflix stands in for visiting the cinema. It's not like people in the 80s lived like frugal monks.
I definitely won't be buying one now.
The current space suit gloves are horrible - astronauts have been known to lose fingernails.
The finalists are tested in evacuated glove boxes.
Each and every year, the winning designs were rejected by the space suit division on NASA. For being the wrong answer.
This is why astronauts on the space station are using 40 year old space suits.
As it happens, most country houses have always been available to public view, if you ask the owner or manager, (that's how the Bennetts get to be shown around Pemberley), but Roy Jenkins turned it into something huge.
I have 3 credit cards, for example. The credit limit amounts to almost my annual income. And I get offers of more all the time.
The ability of people on low to medium income to get into debt through credit and gambling should be, in my opinion, an absolute national shame
They've gone from a forgotten old people's brand to a brand that gets ridiculed for trashing its legacy and the initial reaction to design teasers are very negative so it's not as though a good car will pull them out of the hole in which they now find themselves.
Good point about pubs and coffee shops; except I guess people also drink alcohol at home instead of the pub. Have drinking levels gone down over the decades?
And I'd say comparatively, people in the 1980s were living like frugal monks. My son (10 yo) cannot imagine how I coped not having a computer before I was 12. And I didn't get on the Internet until I was 16!
Inflation and fiscal drag does a lot to decimate real-terms pay.
When I first joined PB I was super cautious about avoiding any kind of revealing information about myself as to be labelled right wing / pro-brexit at the time would have been utter career death.
I left the industry around Covid and now run my own business so am no longer afraid of losing my job if doxxed (though I still appreciate my privacy!)
To give you an idea of the madness, I once had casting approval on an ad rejected by a higher up for being insufficiently diverse. The ad featured three people: a mum, dad and daughter, so a family. Meaning that if you had one minority character, you would have to feature not only a minority, but also a mixed race family, which meant we got sent literal death threats when the ad aired. But I can tell you this process is why a disproportionate number of ads these days feature mixed race families.
I personally found it maddening (not the existence of mixed race families, but the constant box ticking), but conspiracy theorists tend to assume it's 'woke ad agencies pushing diversity on us' when in fact it's tick box marketing departments insisting there be at least one ethnic minority in every ad, with the result that ads that feature families always end up being mixed race. Bureaucracy, not conspiracy, as some seem to think.
You've said exactly what I did.
So under that Royal Blue exterior you've got a sense of humour. Using it you should enjoy the ad. Jaguar have become the Daily Express of motor cars. They aren't selling to women or men under 50 (except you) If you don't like the new ad you're not their target market. They've taken their lead from Virgin and they're aiming for the same result
Everyone doesnt like the ad.
So we can conclude their target market doesn't exist.
They have been in defence: that’s the nature of war. Ukraine needs to hold on until Russia is exhausted. The home team always has an advantage.
Russia is trying to maximise their negotiating position at the moment. The interesting thing is they’ve not prioritised recapturing Kursk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ukE3jwmOcA
It was one of the problems with Bidenomics. Raising the pay of people at the very bottom may be the right thing to do, but it creates fear and resentment one step up. People working in McDonald's get more, but people eating there have to pay more.
But also, it's the cost of housing. At the moment, any increases in pay are likely to cause rents and house prices to go up.