Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Poor Kemi Badenoch, the victim of the voting system – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,045
edited September 10 in General
Poor Kemi Badenoch, the victim of the voting system – politicalbetting.com

? Shadow housing secretary’s camp worry that she may be overtaken by her rival James Cleverly because of ‘vote lending’ by other candidatesRead more ??https://t.co/5aV6EdOZdk pic.twitter.com/lVj1IB6lnf

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,910
    First, unlike Kemi
  • Second, quite possibly also unlike Kemi.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,495
    edited September 10
    Survation brings despair for Scottish independence

    Researchers at Survation spoke to 1,021 people in Scotland eligible to vote in a survey commissioned by the campaign group Scotland in Union.

    They were questioned between between August 27 and 29 and, according to the poll, both the SNP and Scottish Labour are on 28 per cent support in the constituency vote among likely voters.

    Anas Sarwar’s Scottish Labour Party enjoys a one-point lead over John Swinney’s SNP at 25 per cent and 24 per cent respectively in the regional list vote.

    The Scottish Greens, meanwhile, landed on 6 per cent support in constituencies and 9 per cent in the regional list, the Scottish Lib Dems had 9 per cent in both areas and Alba recorded 1 per cent in the constituencies and 2 per cent in the regions...

    ....the Tories would win just 11 per cent of votes on the proportional regional list, which is where most of their MSPs were returned in the 2021 Scottish parliament election.

    Reform would win 8 per cent, which would result in the party gaining a handful of seats despite having next to no campaigning presence north of the border.

    In constituency votes, the Conservative share would halve to 11 per cent while Reform would jump to 9 per cent....

    The poll also sought to assess the level of support for Scottish independence as the ten-year anniversary of the referendum in 2014 approaches....

    ...The 2014 question asked was, “should Scotland be an independent country?” with 55 per cent answering “no” and 45 per cent “yes”.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/nigel-farages-reform-surges-in-support-to-rival-scottish-tories-vwr7p8hjl
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,855
    Coming forth ...
  • OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

  • Her fate does show the risk of going for the all-out radical vote- that someone will come along and out-radical you.

    See also: the Conservative right and Reform.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,280
    Polaris Dawn mission on hold for weather. Looks like it’s going to end up being scrubbed again.

    Edit: first launch window scrubbed, now working towards another theoretical attempt possible in 2h20’, but the met guys don’t sound too positive about it.

    https://x.com/spacex/status/1833358277805039800
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,495
    edited September 10
    Matt is stealing my jokes.

    (edit - I actually do like stealing money from the selfish generation to give to the train drivers because I use the trains a lot.)


  • Survation brings despair for Scottish independence
    ... [big snip] ...
    The poll also sought to assess the level of support for Scottish independence as the ten-year anniversary of the referendum in 2014 approaches....


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/nigel-farages-reform-surges-in-support-to-rival-scottish-tories-vwr7p8hjl

    Just to register my dislike of X year anniversary which is even worse than X month anniversary since the latter at least expresses a new thought.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,504
    Reading a bit about Jenrick (better late than never) I am now a huge fan.

    Done for speeding twice on arguably the two most irritating stretches of speed-controlled roads on the planet - the M1 variable speed section, presumably where they have those stupid metal barriers up, and, as people will know on PB, my personal bete noir - the Westway in London.

    Good for him.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    edited September 10
    In EU internal politics

    Germany are introducing border guards to stop illegal migrants entering the country - it's an attempt to reduce AfD votes.

    Hungary are planning to ship migrants on buses to Brussels - slight problem is they need to go through Germany which won't be possible because of point 1...

    Illegal immigration is getting to be a bigger problem there - it's no longer just Italy and Calais that has problems.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,522
    Mr. Eagles, ironic you describe a generation as 'selfish' when you support taking money from them to give it to people whose services you use personally.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,415
    Sandpit said:

    Polaris Dawn mission on hold for weather. Looks like it’s going to end up being scrubbed again.

    Edit: first launch window scrubbed, now working towards another theoretical attempt possible in 2h20’, but the met guys don’t sound too positive about it.

    https://x.com/spacex/status/1833358277805039800

    And the reason they are continuing to try is that they need to clear the pad for reconfiguration to F9 Heavy. Which is launching Europa Clipper on 10th October.

    Unlike the interval between F9 regular launches - which can be hours - they need a month for the physical work.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,726
    On the subject of Snowflake Kemi, it is worth reading the MiC focus groups.

    https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/general-election-2024/conservative-leadership-election-focus-groups/

    Though these are at best lukewarm all round.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,495
    edited September 10

    Survation brings despair for Scottish independence
    ... [big snip] ...
    The poll also sought to assess the level of support for Scottish independence as the ten-year anniversary of the referendum in 2014 approaches....


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/nigel-farages-reform-surges-in-support-to-rival-scottish-tories-vwr7p8hjl

    Just to register my dislike of X year anniversary which is even worse than X month anniversary since the latter at least expresses a new thought.
    Next Wednesday I have the greatest PB thread ever celebrating the 10th anniversary of David Cameron's victory over the Scot Nats.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,495
    edited September 10

    Mr. Eagles, ironic you describe a generation as 'selfish' when you support taking money from them to give it to people whose services you use personally.

    It is for the greater good/the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
  • OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    Presumably not the actual science adviser, that was Valance.

    Given the timeline and CV (https://jameswphillips.substack.com/about), was he one of the 'wierdo and misfit' Diddy Doms?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,042

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    Presumably not the actual science adviser, that was Valance.

    Given the timeline and CV (https://jameswphillips.substack.com/about), was he one of the 'wierdo and misfit' Diddy Doms?
    If I see both 'Telegraph' and 'Boris Johnson' I have to admit I tend to assume that all the nearby words are bullshit
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,855
    edited September 10
    FPT:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    As a general thing I think we should stop lauding politicians for announcing initiatives and take a cynical attitude because mostly its all fart and no follow through. If Labour manages to build 1.5 million houses I will be the first to applaud.

    Till they actually do however they deserve no plaudit's for announcing stuff and bunging money at initiatives because lets face it is not like history shows us its easy to make announcements....levelling up, immigration down to 10s of thousand, building 1.5 million houses in 5 years.

    When it happens then its time to say well done, not when some scheme is announced. We would all be better being more cynical about these things and show politicians if they want to reap the benefit they have to actually achieve

    It's spin .

    We built about 1,2 million houses in the last 5 years. So Starmer is only proposing another 300k new builds. In reality we need 1.5 million houses in the next 5 years on top of the 1.2 million we already build if it is to have any impact.

    According to the official ONS statistics, those numbers are way over the top - by about 35-40%.

    Starts Apr 2019 to Mar 2024: 886,867
    Completions Apr 2019 to Mar 2024: 976,167

    For comparison

    Starts Apr 2014 to Mar 2019: 815,620
    Completions Apr 2014 to Mar 2019: 761,840

    The 2019 to 2024 numbers include my straight line extrapolation over the 2 year COVID period, which is very generous and may be adding an extra 100k to the number. There are adjustments and minor category inclusions and exclusion I expect, but not to that extent.

    It is notable that starts in the 2023-2024 period were only ~150k, which I suggest is down to the Election and Sunak's NIMBY-pandering.

    For the Starmer promise, I think they may hit around 1.2 million in the first 5 years, and 1.5 million in the second 5 years if they get 2 terms. That will be doing well.

    It's worth remembering that we will not know the out-turn until around 5.5 years from now, so it will be a guessing game at the next Election.

    Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/datasets/ukhousebuildingpermanentdwellingsstartedandcompleted
    SKS and AlanBrooke will be pleased to know that the Pointers are doing their bit - we've just bought a building pot and plan to build our own (planners permitting). Exciting times.
    Completion 2032 if you do well :smile: .
    Mrs P has specified completion by Christmas 2026.

    Planners, architects, builders, building inspectors... you have been warned.
    I'm nearly inclined to offer you a charity bet on that, @Benpointer - being in for Christmas 2026, which TBF is slightly different from Completion, depending on how it is defined. Starting from a naked plot with no PP that would be nearly unprecedented in my experience. Have you already applied for Planning already?

    I think the only way I can see that being achieved is a turnkey package from a TF company, possibly with a professional half -> full time project manager, and services in place.

    Though I appreciate you very much know the ropes.

    Say loser pays £100 to Wheels for Wellbeing.

    How confident are you, and what would your terms be?

    I can't think of any Grand Designs that did this, but they always start with planning in place. The quickest build I recall is probably the early water tower off a roundabout, with the Herb Alpert style music.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    TOPPING said:

    Reading a bit about Jenrick (better late than never) I am now a huge fan.

    Done for speeding twice on arguably the two most irritating stretches of speed-controlled roads on the planet - the M1 variable speed section, presumably where they have those stupid metal barriers up, and, as people will know on PB, my personal bete noir - the Westway in London.

    Good for him.

    We need to know what car he has before we can be fully paid up Jenrick dick riders.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,415
    edited September 10
    eek said:

    In EU internal politics

    Germany are introducing border guards to stop illegal migrants entering the country - it's an attempt to reduce AfD votes.

    Hungary are planning to ship migrants on buses to Brussels - slight problem is they need to go through Germany which won't be possible because of point 1...

    Illegal immigration is getting to be a bigger problem there - it's no longer just Italy and Calais that has problems.

    But I recall being told that Free Movement in Europe was an inviolable part of the Single Market.

    Or is this another instance of the silent clause in European Legislation?

    ”This Legislation Can Be Overridden By Germany And France When They Feel Like It”
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    As a general thing I think we should stop lauding politicians for announcing initiatives and take a cynical attitude because mostly its all fart and no follow through. If Labour manages to build 1.5 million houses I will be the first to applaud.

    Till they actually do however they deserve no plaudit's for announcing stuff and bunging money at initiatives because lets face it is not like history shows us its easy to make announcements....levelling up, immigration down to 10s of thousand, building 1.5 million houses in 5 years.

    When it happens then its time to say well done, not when some scheme is announced. We would all be better being more cynical about these things and show politicians if they want to reap the benefit they have to actually achieve

    It's spin .

    We built about 1,2 million houses in the last 5 years. So Starmer is only proposing another 300k new builds. In reality we need 1.5 million houses in the next 5 years on top of the 1.2 million we already build if it is to have any impact.

    According to the official ONS statistics, those numbers are way over the top - by about 35-40%.

    Starts Apr 2019 to Mar 2024: 886,867
    Completions Apr 2019 to Mar 2024: 976,167

    For comparison

    Starts Apr 2014 to Mar 2019: 815,620
    Completions Apr 2014 to Mar 2019: 761,840

    The 2019 to 2024 numbers include my straight line extrapolation over the 2 year COVID period, which is very generous and may be adding an extra 100k to the number. There are adjustments and minor category inclusions and exclusion I expect, but not to that extent.

    It is notable that starts in the 2023-2024 period were only ~150k, which I suggest is down to the Election and Sunak's NIMBY-pandering.

    For the Starmer promise, I think they may hit around 1.2 million in the first 5 years, and 1.5 million in the second 5 years if they get 2 terms. That will be doing well.

    It's worth remembering that we will not know the out-turn until around 5.5 years from now, so it will be a guessing game at the next Election.

    Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/datasets/ukhousebuildingpermanentdwellingsstartedandcompleted
    SKS and AlanBrooke will be pleased to know that the Pointers are doing their bit - we've just bought a building pot and plan to build our own (planners permitting). Exciting times.
    Completion 2032 if you do well :smile: .
    Mrs P has specified completion by Christmas 2026.

    Planners, architects, builders, building inspectors... you have been warned.
    I'm nearly inclined to offer you a charity bet on that, @Benpointer - being in for Christmas 2026, which TBF is slightly different from Completion, depending on how it is defined. Starting from a naked plot with no PP that would be nearly unprecedented in my experience. Have you already applied for Planning already?

    I think the only way I can see that being achieved is a turnkey package from a TF company, possibly with a professional half -> full time project manager, and services in place.

    Though I appreciate you very much know the ropes.

    Say loser pays £100 to Wheels for Wellbeing.

    How confident are you, and what would your terms be?
    I have the disadvantage of not knowing where Ben is but I think if you get planning permission before Christmas you will be doing very well...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,415
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    As a general thing I think we should stop lauding politicians for announcing initiatives and take a cynical attitude because mostly its all fart and no follow through. If Labour manages to build 1.5 million houses I will be the first to applaud.

    Till they actually do however they deserve no plaudit's for announcing stuff and bunging money at initiatives because lets face it is not like history shows us its easy to make announcements....levelling up, immigration down to 10s of thousand, building 1.5 million houses in 5 years.

    When it happens then its time to say well done, not when some scheme is announced. We would all be better being more cynical about these things and show politicians if they want to reap the benefit they have to actually achieve

    It's spin .

    We built about 1,2 million houses in the last 5 years. So Starmer is only proposing another 300k new builds. In reality we need 1.5 million houses in the next 5 years on top of the 1.2 million we already build if it is to have any impact.

    According to the official ONS statistics, those numbers are way over the top - by about 35-40%.

    Starts Apr 2019 to Mar 2024: 886,867
    Completions Apr 2019 to Mar 2024: 976,167

    For comparison

    Starts Apr 2014 to Mar 2019: 815,620
    Completions Apr 2014 to Mar 2019: 761,840

    The 2019 to 2024 numbers include my straight line extrapolation over the 2 year COVID period, which is very generous and may be adding an extra 100k to the number. There are adjustments and minor category inclusions and exclusion I expect, but not to that extent.

    It is notable that starts in the 2023-2024 period were only ~150k, which I suggest is down to the Election and Sunak's NIMBY-pandering.

    For the Starmer promise, I think they may hit around 1.2 million in the first 5 years, and 1.5 million in the second 5 years if they get 2 terms. That will be doing well.

    It's worth remembering that we will not know the out-turn until around 5.5 years from now, so it will be a guessing game at the next Election.

    Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/datasets/ukhousebuildingpermanentdwellingsstartedandcompleted
    SKS and AlanBrooke will be pleased to know that the Pointers are doing their bit - we've just bought a building pot and plan to build our own (planners permitting). Exciting times.
    Completion 2032 if you do well :smile: .
    Mrs P has specified completion by Christmas 2026.

    Planners, architects, builders, building inspectors... you have been warned.
    I'm nearly inclined to offer you a charity bet on that, @Benpointer - being in for Christmas 2026, which TBF is slightly different from Completion, depending on how it is defined. Starting from a naked plot with no PP that would be nearly unprecedented in my experience. Have you already applied for Planning already?

    I think the only way I can see that being achieved is a turnkey package from a TF company, possibly with a professional half -> full time project manager, and services in place.

    Though I appreciate you very much know the ropes.

    Say loser pays £100 to Wheels for Wellbeing.

    How confident are you, and what would your terms be?
    I have the disadvantage of not knowing where Ben is but I think if you get planning permission before Christmas you will be doing very well...
    There was that guy from Northern Ireland on Grand Designs - block construction, used standard shop glass panels. Had the thing watertight before you could say Huff House three times…
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,847

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


  • Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading a bit about Jenrick (better late than never) I am now a huge fan.

    Done for speeding twice on arguably the two most irritating stretches of speed-controlled roads on the planet - the M1 variable speed section, presumably where they have those stupid metal barriers up, and, as people will know on PB, my personal bete noir - the Westway in London.

    Good for him.

    We need to know what car he has before we can be fully paid up Jenrick dick riders.
    Land Rover apparently (no model info available unfortunately for full eeugh/dick riding potential).
  • OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    The suggestion is that none of the above are competent to assess the evidence. There might not even have been a trial if they had been.
  • OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    Yes, but this is where the Diddy Dom aspect is relevant. The mindset of people like that (and, to be fair, they don't all become Cummings followers) is:

    1. I don't understand X.
    2. I am extremely clever.
    3. Therefore X is wrong.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,042
    edited September 10
    Latest 538 forecast has Harris 54% to win
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/

    I'm slightly surprised that Nate Silver's forecast is so different as I assumed their models would use similar approaches - I think his latest forecast has Trump on 64%?

    I prefer the 538 forecast because:

    1. It seems to fit the available data better - Harris has a slight polling lead and there's quite some time to go, so it should be close to 50-50 but Harris slightly favoured.
    2. The Silver forecast seems to be noisier with big shifts resulting from a single poll being published, this seems a bit dodgy to me.
    3. The Silver model seems to put more weight on dodgy assumptions, which are just basically guesses about which way the polls will move in the future.
    4. I'd rather that Trump had less than 64% chance of winning.

    I wonder if Silver has deliberately made the model more 'aggressive' so that it stands out a bit more - if so I think it has worked as his high Trump forecasts have got quite a bit of attention when otherwise people might have just kept on going to 538 without maybe even realising that Silver is now doing his own thing. I mean he proudly claims that he is a 'risk-taker' who will do whatever has the highest EV in his books.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,855
    TOPPING said:

    Reading a bit about Jenrick (better late than never) I am now a huge fan.

    Done for speeding twice on arguably the two most irritating stretches of speed-controlled roads on the planet - the M1 variable speed section, presumably where they have those stupid metal barriers up, and, as people will know on PB, my personal bete noir - the Westway in London.

    Good for him.

    Is this a new ban, or the one from 2023? Same excuse as Andy Burnham - "I didn't notice the sign".

    That should also make you a fan of Tom Tugendhat btw, who got himself banned in 2022, and is mentioned in the same article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/04/robert-jenrick-banned-from-driving-for-six-months-for-speeding
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,078
    edited September 10

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    Presumably not the actual science adviser, that was Valance.

    Given the timeline and CV (https://jameswphillips.substack.com/about), was he one of the 'wierdo and misfit' Diddy Doms?
    That page describes himself as a SpAd, by the look of it, so a science adviser rather than the (chief) science adviser.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,847

    eek said:

    In EU internal politics

    Germany are introducing border guards to stop illegal migrants entering the country - it's an attempt to reduce AfD votes.

    Hungary are planning to ship migrants on buses to Brussels - slight problem is they need to go through Germany which won't be possible because of point 1...

    Illegal immigration is getting to be a bigger problem there - it's no longer just Italy and Calais that has problems.

    But I recall being told that Free Movement in Europe was an inviolable part of the Single Market.

    Or is this another instance of the silent clause in European Legislation?

    ”This Legislation Can Be Overridden By Germany And France When They Feel Like It”
    How can Hungary anyone anywhere?

    They are landlocked and the Danube can barely take a boat let alone a ship once you get upstream
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,415

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    Which does make one wonder about improvements.

    If no one in the chain could check the use of statistical evidence…

    Brings to mind some convictions that turned out to be flawed - the DNA evidence didn’t actually prove beyond reasonable doubt.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,182

    eek said:

    In EU internal politics

    Germany are introducing border guards to stop illegal migrants entering the country - it's an attempt to reduce AfD votes.

    Hungary are planning to ship migrants on buses to Brussels - slight problem is they need to go through Germany which won't be possible because of point 1...

    Illegal immigration is getting to be a bigger problem there - it's no longer just Italy and Calais that has problems.

    But I recall being told that Free Movement in Europe was an inviolable part of the Single Market.

    Or is this another instance of the silent clause in European Legislation?

    ”This Legislation Can Be Overridden By Germany And France When They Feel Like It”
    The border guards, who already operate on other parts of the German border, aren’t stopping anyone covered by free movement rules.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    The suggestion is that none of the above are competent to assess the evidence. There might not even have been a trial if they had been.
    It was up to the defence to put up a defence - the issue seems to be that there wasn't much of one - possibly because there isn't much that can be defended.

    It's remarkable how a pretty young nurse is getting a lot of attention in the way that Harold Shipman didn't given they seem to have had a similar viewpoint in life.
  • eek said:

    In EU internal politics

    Germany are introducing border guards to stop illegal migrants entering the country - it's an attempt to reduce AfD votes.

    Hungary are planning to ship migrants on buses to Brussels - slight problem is they need to go through Germany which won't be possible because of point 1...

    Illegal immigration is getting to be a bigger problem there - it's no longer just Italy and Calais that has problems.

    But I recall being told that Free Movement in Europe was an inviolable part of the Single Market.

    Or is this another instance of the silent clause in European Legislation?

    ”This Legislation Can Be Overridden By Germany And France When They Feel Like It”
    The border guards, who already operate on other parts of the German border, aren’t stopping anyone covered by free movement rules.
    So roughly how it was here a decade ago- wave the papers to prove they exist, but that's about it?
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,533

    Survation brings despair for Scottish independence

    Researchers at Survation spoke to 1,021 people in Scotland eligible to vote in a survey commissioned by the campaign group Scotland in Union.

    They were questioned between between August 27 and 29 and, according to the poll, both the SNP and Scottish Labour are on 28 per cent support in the constituency vote among likely voters.

    Anas Sarwar’s Scottish Labour Party enjoys a one-point lead over John Swinney’s SNP at 25 per cent and 24 per cent respectively in the regional list vote.

    The Scottish Greens, meanwhile, landed on 6 per cent support in constituencies and 9 per cent in the regional list, the Scottish Lib Dems had 9 per cent in both areas and Alba recorded 1 per cent in the constituencies and 2 per cent in the regions...

    ....the Tories would win just 11 per cent of votes on the proportional regional list, which is where most of their MSPs were returned in the 2021 Scottish parliament election.

    Reform would win 8 per cent, which would result in the party gaining a handful of seats despite having next to no campaigning presence north of the border.

    In constituency votes, the Conservative share would halve to 11 per cent while Reform would jump to 9 per cent....

    The poll also sought to assess the level of support for Scottish independence as the ten-year anniversary of the referendum in 2014 approaches....

    ...The 2014 question asked was, “should Scotland be an independent country?” with 55 per cent answering “no” and 45 per cent “yes”.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/nigel-farages-reform-surges-in-support-to-rival-scottish-tories-vwr7p8hjl

    It wasn't even 8am!
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,042

    eek said:

    In EU internal politics

    Germany are introducing border guards to stop illegal migrants entering the country - it's an attempt to reduce AfD votes.

    Hungary are planning to ship migrants on buses to Brussels - slight problem is they need to go through Germany which won't be possible because of point 1...

    Illegal immigration is getting to be a bigger problem there - it's no longer just Italy and Calais that has problems.

    But I recall being told that Free Movement in Europe was an inviolable part of the Single Market.

    Or is this another instance of the silent clause in European Legislation?

    ”This Legislation Can Be Overridden By Germany And France When They Feel Like It”
    In case you're not trolling:

    a) This has absolutely nothing to do with freedom of movement within the EU. You might not remember because it was a few years ago now, but the UK used to be within the EU and had border controls. This is about Schengen.

    b) Germany has had temporary border controls with Austria since 2015, and with Poland, Czechia and Switzerland since 2023. Other Schengen countries with current temporary border controls include Austria, Slovenia, Italy, Denmark, France, Sweden
    https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en

    During Covid there were a lot more. Though I have to say I drove across the border between Germany and the Netherlands a few times in the height of Covid when 'temporary border controls' were in place, and never saw any sign of any actual border controls.

    So, no nothing to do with freedom of movement, and no legislation being overridden, and nothing to do with exceptions for Germany and France. Congratulations!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,107
    edited September 10
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    As a general thing I think we should stop lauding politicians for announcing initiatives and take a cynical attitude because mostly its all fart and no follow through. If Labour manages to build 1.5 million houses I will be the first to applaud.

    Till they actually do however they deserve no plaudit's for announcing stuff and bunging money at initiatives because lets face it is not like history shows us its easy to make announcements....levelling up, immigration down to 10s of thousand, building 1.5 million houses in 5 years.

    When it happens then its time to say well done, not when some scheme is announced. We would all be better being more cynical about these things and show politicians if they want to reap the benefit they have to actually achieve

    It's spin .

    We built about 1,2 million houses in the last 5 years. So Starmer is only proposing another 300k new builds. In reality we need 1.5 million houses in the next 5 years on top of the 1.2 million we already build if it is to have any impact.

    According to the official ONS statistics, those numbers are way over the top - by about 35-40%.

    Starts Apr 2019 to Mar 2024: 886,867
    Completions Apr 2019 to Mar 2024: 976,167

    For comparison

    Starts Apr 2014 to Mar 2019: 815,620
    Completions Apr 2014 to Mar 2019: 761,840

    The 2019 to 2024 numbers include my straight line extrapolation over the 2 year COVID period, which is very generous and may be adding an extra 100k to the number. There are adjustments and minor category inclusions and exclusion I expect, but not to that extent.

    It is notable that starts in the 2023-2024 period were only ~150k, which I suggest is down to the Election and Sunak's NIMBY-pandering.

    For the Starmer promise, I think they may hit around 1.2 million in the first 5 years, and 1.5 million in the second 5 years if they get 2 terms. That will be doing well.

    It's worth remembering that we will not know the out-turn until around 5.5 years from now, so it will be a guessing game at the next Election.

    Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/datasets/ukhousebuildingpermanentdwellingsstartedandcompleted
    SKS and AlanBrooke will be pleased to know that the Pointers are doing their bit - we've just bought a building pot and plan to build our own (planners permitting). Exciting times.
    Completion 2032 if you do well :smile: .
    Mrs P has specified completion by Christmas 2026.

    Planners, architects, builders, building inspectors... you have been warned.
    I'm nearly inclined to offer you a charity bet on that, @Benpointer - being in for Christmas 2026, which TBF is slightly different from Completion, depending on how it is defined. Starting from a naked plot with no PP that would be nearly unprecedented in my experience. Have you already applied for Planning already?

    I think the only way I can see that being achieved is a turnkey package from a TF company, possibly with a professional half -> full time project manager, and services in place.

    Though I appreciate you very much know the ropes.

    Say loser pays £100 to Wheels for Wellbeing.

    How confident are you, and what would your terms be?

    I can't think of any Grand Designs that did this, but they always start with planning in place. The quickest build I recall is probably the early water tower off a roundabout, with the Herb Alpert style music.
    My friend built a house in Herefordshire an early series and it was a bish bash bosh move in type of affair. But looking back it was hardly typical: father in law ran a local timber framed house building company (which he’s since bequeathed to my friend) and pretty much did the build.

    That’s the secret isn’t it: building to a standardised blueprint and letting someone professional run with it.

    Whereas our just completed barn conversion in Burgundy - essentially a complete rebuild from ruin - has taken nigh on 21 months and that’s under a very strict architect/project manager.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    kamski said:

    eek said:

    In EU internal politics

    Germany are introducing border guards to stop illegal migrants entering the country - it's an attempt to reduce AfD votes.

    Hungary are planning to ship migrants on buses to Brussels - slight problem is they need to go through Germany which won't be possible because of point 1...

    Illegal immigration is getting to be a bigger problem there - it's no longer just Italy and Calais that has problems.

    But I recall being told that Free Movement in Europe was an inviolable part of the Single Market.

    Or is this another instance of the silent clause in European Legislation?

    ”This Legislation Can Be Overridden By Germany And France When They Feel Like It”
    In case you're not trolling:

    a) This has absolutely nothing to do with freedom of movement within the EU. You might not remember because it was a few years ago now, but the UK used to be within the EU and had border controls. This is about Schengen.

    b) Germany has had temporary border controls with Austria since 2015, and with Poland, Czechia and Switzerland since 2023. Other Schengen countries with current temporary border controls include Austria, Slovenia, Italy, Denmark, France, Sweden
    https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en

    During Covid there were a lot more. Though I have to say I drove across the border between Germany and the Netherlands a few times in the height of Covid when 'temporary border controls' were in place, and never saw any sign of any actual border controls.

    So, no nothing to do with freedom of movement, and no legislation being overridden, and nothing to do with exceptions for Germany and France. Congratulations!
    I used to travel from Slovenia to Austria very often in 2017/18 - there were border guards at the top of the mountain all the time (it must have been on awful job in December to March)..

    It wasn't a road I would want to drive, thankfully the end client was happy to provide a taxi..
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,504
    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading a bit about Jenrick (better late than never) I am now a huge fan.

    Done for speeding twice on arguably the two most irritating stretches of speed-controlled roads on the planet - the M1 variable speed section, presumably where they have those stupid metal barriers up, and, as people will know on PB, my personal bete noir - the Westway in London.

    Good for him.

    Is this a new ban, or the one from 2023? Same excuse as Andy Burnham - "I didn't notice the sign".

    That should also make you a fan of Tom Tugendhat btw, who got himself banned in 2022, and is mentioned in the same article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/04/robert-jenrick-banned-from-driving-for-six-months-for-speeding
    It's the two stretches of road that are important. That M1 speed restriction goes on for miles and miles for no apparent reason (the speed restriction); and as I have said many times, the Westway is a three-lane dual carriageway with a 30mph speed limit which is ridiculous.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,533

    Mr. Eagles, ironic you describe a generation as 'selfish' when you support taking money from them to give it to people whose services you use personally.

    It is for the greater good/the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
    You're particularly impish this morning. I approve.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,415
    kamski said:

    eek said:

    In EU internal politics

    Germany are introducing border guards to stop illegal migrants entering the country - it's an attempt to reduce AfD votes.

    Hungary are planning to ship migrants on buses to Brussels - slight problem is they need to go through Germany which won't be possible because of point 1...

    Illegal immigration is getting to be a bigger problem there - it's no longer just Italy and Calais that has problems.

    But I recall being told that Free Movement in Europe was an inviolable part of the Single Market.

    Or is this another instance of the silent clause in European Legislation?

    ”This Legislation Can Be Overridden By Germany And France When They Feel Like It”
    In case you're not trolling:

    a) This has absolutely nothing to do with freedom of movement within the EU. You might not remember because it was a few years ago now, but the UK used to be within the EU and had border controls. This is about Schengen.

    b) Germany has had temporary border controls with Austria since 2015, and with Poland, Czechia and Switzerland since 2023. Other Schengen countries with current temporary border controls include Austria, Slovenia, Italy, Denmark, France, Sweden
    https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en

    During Covid there were a lot more. Though I have to say I drove across the border between Germany and the Netherlands a few times in the height of Covid when 'temporary border controls' were in place, and never saw any sign of any actual border controls.

    So, no nothing to do with freedom of movement, and no legislation being overridden, and nothing to do with exceptions for Germany and France. Congratulations!
    The point I was making was that Free Movement actually has lots of ifs and buts in it.

    Both sides in the EU referendum were presenting it as an absolute. Why? Obvious for Farage & Co, but why Remain?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,042

    eek said:

    In EU internal politics

    Germany are introducing border guards to stop illegal migrants entering the country - it's an attempt to reduce AfD votes.

    Hungary are planning to ship migrants on buses to Brussels - slight problem is they need to go through Germany which won't be possible because of point 1...

    Illegal immigration is getting to be a bigger problem there - it's no longer just Italy and Calais that has problems.

    But I recall being told that Free Movement in Europe was an inviolable part of the Single Market.

    Or is this another instance of the silent clause in European Legislation?

    ”This Legislation Can Be Overridden By Germany And France When They Feel Like It”
    The border guards, who already operate on other parts of the German border, aren’t stopping anyone covered by free movement rules.
    So roughly how it was here a decade ago- wave the papers to prove they exist, but that's about it?
    Very unlikely to be that much control I guess - at least for cars. There is simply not enough infrastructure on the roads, and too much cross-border traffic. They will do occasional spot checks, and maybe have places/times where buses and lorries are pulled out and checked. It might be different on routes that are known to be used a lot.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,847

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    The suggestion is that none of the above are competent to assess the evidence. There might not even have been a trial if they had been.
    They are not supposed to

    But it’s also possible they had access to more information than a non name ex SpAd hack writing a hit piece in the Telegraph. Just possible.

  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,042
    edited September 10

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    In EU internal politics

    Germany are introducing border guards to stop illegal migrants entering the country - it's an attempt to reduce AfD votes.

    Hungary are planning to ship migrants on buses to Brussels - slight problem is they need to go through Germany which won't be possible because of point 1...

    Illegal immigration is getting to be a bigger problem there - it's no longer just Italy and Calais that has problems.

    But I recall being told that Free Movement in Europe was an inviolable part of the Single Market.

    Or is this another instance of the silent clause in European Legislation?

    ”This Legislation Can Be Overridden By Germany And France When They Feel Like It”
    In case you're not trolling:

    a) This has absolutely nothing to do with freedom of movement within the EU. You might not remember because it was a few years ago now, but the UK used to be within the EU and had border controls. This is about Schengen.

    b) Germany has had temporary border controls with Austria since 2015, and with Poland, Czechia and Switzerland since 2023. Other Schengen countries with current temporary border controls include Austria, Slovenia, Italy, Denmark, France, Sweden
    https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en

    During Covid there were a lot more. Though I have to say I drove across the border between Germany and the Netherlands a few times in the height of Covid when 'temporary border controls' were in place, and never saw any sign of any actual border controls.

    So, no nothing to do with freedom of movement, and no legislation being overridden, and nothing to do with exceptions for Germany and France. Congratulations!
    The point I was making was that Free Movement actually has lots of ifs and buts in it.

    Both sides in the EU referendum were presenting it as an absolute. Why? Obvious for Farage & Co, but why Remain?
    Huh? You were making a point about Germany introducing border controls that has absolutely nothing to do with freedom of movement. Everything in your post was 100% wrong.
  • eek said:

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    The suggestion is that none of the above are competent to assess the evidence. There might not even have been a trial if they had been.
    It was up to the defence to put up a defence - the issue seems to be that there wasn't much of one - possibly because there isn't much that can be defended.

    It's remarkable how a pretty young nurse is getting a lot of attention in the way that Harold Shipman didn't given they seem to have had a similar viewpoint in life.
    Eh? Harold Shipman did get a lot of attention, and was played by James Bolam on the telly.

    And that Alan Bates geezer in the Post Office row. He must be a right looker.

    The idea that Letby's convictions are in question because she is "pretty" (is she?) is the laziest trope, and for which there are numerous counter-examples.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,847

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    Which does make one wonder about improvements.

    If no one in the chain could check the use of statistical evidence…

    Brings to mind some convictions that turned out to be flawed - the DNA evidence didn’t actually prove beyond reasonable doubt.
    I’ve not spent a huge amount of time thinking about this.

    But I thought the criticism was of the partial selection of the statistical evidence *presented to the jury*.

    Not that it was wrong, but that it was partial and designed to convince the jury of the case.

    And you can’t take a single piece of evidence in isolation and say “this didn’t work therefore the conviction is flawed”. Juries form their view based on the totality of evidence
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,107

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    In EU internal politics

    Germany are introducing border guards to stop illegal migrants entering the country - it's an attempt to reduce AfD votes.

    Hungary are planning to ship migrants on buses to Brussels - slight problem is they need to go through Germany which won't be possible because of point 1...

    Illegal immigration is getting to be a bigger problem there - it's no longer just Italy and Calais that has problems.

    But I recall being told that Free Movement in Europe was an inviolable part of the Single Market.

    Or is this another instance of the silent clause in European Legislation?

    ”This Legislation Can Be Overridden By Germany And France When They Feel Like It”
    In case you're not trolling:

    a) This has absolutely nothing to do with freedom of movement within the EU. You might not remember because it was a few years ago now, but the UK used to be within the EU and had border controls. This is about Schengen.

    b) Germany has had temporary border controls with Austria since 2015, and with Poland, Czechia and Switzerland since 2023. Other Schengen countries with current temporary border controls include Austria, Slovenia, Italy, Denmark, France, Sweden
    https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en

    During Covid there were a lot more. Though I have to say I drove across the border between Germany and the Netherlands a few times in the height of Covid when 'temporary border controls' were in place, and never saw any sign of any actual border controls.

    So, no nothing to do with freedom of movement, and no legislation being overridden, and nothing to do with exceptions for Germany and France. Congratulations!
    The point I was making was that Free Movement actually has lots of ifs and buts in it.

    Both sides in the EU referendum were presenting it as an absolute. Why? Obvious for Farage & Co, but why Remain?
    Free movement is about the right to live and work, not the right to cross the border. So while it’s true there are many ifs and buts to it, they’re completely different from Schengen ifs and buts.

    Switzerland and Monaco being examples: in Schengen so you can just hop across the border, but no “free movement”.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,002
    Nigelb said:

    This is crazy stuff.

    Not only did the Romanian air force not shoot down russian drones in their airspace, they escorted them with F-16s for over 100 km from Năvodari to the UA-RO international border so they could strike targets in Odesa region.
    https://x.com/mhmck/status/1832815563371848143

    I don't particularly blame Romania, as it's likely NATO consensus not to 'escalate'.
    The message it sends is that NATO doesn't even have the resolve to defend its own airspace.
    That does not augur well for any peace agreement after the war in Ukraine. Without credible deterrence, Russia will try again.

    NATO is just a front for a big jobs for the boys club where they can play at soldiers. They would be scared they creased their uniforms or that the Russians would throw a cabbage at them.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,855
    edited September 10
    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading a bit about Jenrick (better late than never) I am now a huge fan.

    Done for speeding twice on arguably the two most irritating stretches of speed-controlled roads on the planet - the M1 variable speed section, presumably where they have those stupid metal barriers up, and, as people will know on PB, my personal bete noir - the Westway in London.

    Good for him.

    Is this a new ban, or the one from 2023? Same excuse as Andy Burnham - "I didn't notice the sign".

    That should also make you a fan of Tom Tugendhat btw, who got himself banned in 2022, and is mentioned in the same article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/04/robert-jenrick-banned-from-driving-for-six-months-for-speeding
    Quick check.

    Tugendhat was using his mobile phone in his hand for navigation in Wandsworth, but did the slopey-shoulder weasel words thing : "I was holding my mobile phone not using it."
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/17/security-minister-tom-tugendhat-given-six-month-driving-ban

    But I think he's out, isn't he?

    Cleverly had an incident on the motorway where he hit somebody else's new car and denied he was using his phone, and got quite shirty about it.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/james-cleverly-car-crash-tory-mp-braintree-essex-a9072686.html

    I can't check on Mel Stride, because his listings about "car crashes" are all about interviews :smiley: .

    Kemi seems clear.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,726
    kamski said:

    Latest 538 forecast has Harris 54% to win
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/

    I'm slightly surprised that Nate Silver's forecast is so different as I assumed their models would use similar approaches - I think his latest forecast has Trump on 64%?

    I prefer the 538 forecast because:

    1. It seems to fit the available data better - Harris has a slight polling lead and there's quite some time to go, so it should be close to 50-50 but Harris slightly favoured.
    2. The Silver forecast seems to be noisier with big shifts resulting from a single poll being published, this seems a bit dodgy to me.
    3. The Silver model seems to put more weight on dodgy assumptions, which are just basically guesses about which way the polls will move in the future.
    4. I'd rather that Trump had less than 64% chance of winning.

    I wonder if Silver has deliberately made the model more 'aggressive' so that it stands out a bit more - if so I think it has worked as his high Trump forecasts have got quite a bit of attention when otherwise people might have just kept on going to 538 without maybe even realising that Silver is now doing his own thing. I mean he proudly claims that he is a 'risk-taker' who will do whatever has the highest EV in his books.

    You also have to consider who now employs Silver.

    ..In May 2022, Polymarket appointed J. Christopher Giancarlo, a former Commissioner of the CFTC, as chairman of its advisory board.[5] In May 2024, it was announced that Polymarket had raised $70 million across two rounds of funding.[6] The rounds included investments from Vitalik Buterin, the co-founder of Ethereum, and Founders Fund, a venture capital firm founded by Peter Thiel...

    ...In 2024, the outcome of U.S. elections became the most active market on the platform,[6] with over $776 million (as of September 2, 2024) wagered on the presidential race between the Republican candidate Donald Trump and Democratic candidate Kamala Harris.[1] Nate Silver, founder of polling analysis firm FiveThirtyEight, became an advisor to Polymarket in 2024.[9] The site allows users to leave comments on markets however the content is largely unmoderated...


    There is, at the very least, the appearance of a conflict of interest.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,380
    On topic, Badenoch has - once again - misdiagnosed the problem. It's not tactical voting that is scuppering her chances, it's the blistering editorial critique of her campaign and her record on the influential site politicalbetting.com :wink:
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,056

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    Not in a position to read this. If anyone does, please let us know if the article contains anything that could properly be described as an argument based on the actual evidence.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,380

    eek said:

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    The suggestion is that none of the above are competent to assess the evidence. There might not even have been a trial if they had been.
    It was up to the defence to put up a defence - the issue seems to be that there wasn't much of one - possibly because there isn't much that can be defended.

    It's remarkable how a pretty young nurse is getting a lot of attention in the way that Harold Shipman didn't given they seem to have had a similar viewpoint in life.
    Eh? Harold Shipman did get a lot of attention, and was played by James Bolam on the telly.

    And that Alan Bates geezer in the Post Office row. He must be a right looker.

    The idea that Letby's convictions are in question because she is "pretty" (is she?) is the laziest trope, and for which there are numerous counter-examples.
    I also don't get the 'pretty young nurse' thing - eye of the beholder, I guess. Either that or all the press photos are highly unflattering.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,107
    Selebian said:

    On topic, Badenoch has - once again - misdiagnosed the problem. It's not tactical voting that is scuppering her chances, it's the blistering editorial critique of her campaign and her record on the influential site politicalbetting.com :wink:

    Her reactions in this election are unfortunately reinforcing what was already a weak point: the perception of her as thin skinned and entitled. I’m not sure what she thinks she will gain from complaining loudly to the media.

    A shame, because she’s by far the most interesting of the candidates from a neutral’s point of view.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,056
    edited September 10
    Selebian said:

    On topic, Badenoch has - once again - misdiagnosed the problem. It's not tactical voting that is scuppering her chances, it's the blistering editorial critique of her campaign and her record on the influential site politicalbetting.com :wink:

    It's not really complicated. If 41 MPs really want her then it is extremely easy to ensure she goes to the members. A smaller number may suffice, but if you don't have the loyalty of a third of the MPs you should not be in the last two. The same rules apply to them all.

    BTW is Cleverly positioning himself as the only one who can get votes from drys and wets?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,107
    This polling result is hilarious. Conservative members’ views on why they lost the election vs those of the general public:

    https://x.com/yougov/status/1833413364434808915?s=46
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,449
    For what it's worth, high Tory Charles Moore thinks the three who definitely should go forward are: Kemi Badenoch, Robert Jenrick and Tom Tugendhat.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading a bit about Jenrick (better late than never) I am now a huge fan.

    Done for speeding twice on arguably the two most irritating stretches of speed-controlled roads on the planet - the M1 variable speed section, presumably where they have those stupid metal barriers up, and, as people will know on PB, my personal bete noir - the Westway in London.

    Good for him.

    We need to know what car he has before we can be fully paid up Jenrick dick riders.
    Land Rover apparently (no model info available unfortunately for full eeugh/dick riding potential).
    Haha,
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,280
    edited September 10
    Well it’s the US Presidential debate tonight, although early tomorrow morning for most of us.

    Last night the Harris campaign published some policy ideas on their website:
    https://kamalaharris.com/issues/

    And JD Vance responded to it, obviously disagreeing and pointing to actual policy enacted by Harris in the last four years.
    https://x.com/jdvance/status/1833175793066713371

    Worth a read to get an idea of what the two campaigns are thinking, and how they might want to steer the debate.
  • TimS said:

    This polling result is hilarious. Conservative members’ views on why they lost the election vs those of the general public:

    https://x.com/yougov/status/1833413364434808915?s=46

    That divergence is probably pretty normal a few months after a defeat.

    Hard to see the party progressing that far (beyond the odd spark of life in response to events) until there is a bit more agreement.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,380
    algarkirk said:

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    Not in a position to read this. If anyone does, please let us know if the article contains anything that could properly be described as an argument based on the actual evidence.
    No (via 12ft.io).

    The main argument seems to be that evidence relies on evidence, e.g. "As a simple example, the confidence you would have in a piece of evidence being presented as evidence for murder via air embolism is altered by your confidence that there was an abnormal cluster in the first place." Which is a valid point, but both the prosecution and defence seem to have accepted that there were murders. Now, it's possible that the defence were completely inept and should have argued that there were no murders. If there's been a miscarriage of justice then it looks to have been down to the defence team being numpties rather than anything else.

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    edited September 10
    My friend Mishal Husain eviscerated Kemi Badenoch on R4’s Today, and that was on her strongest wrecking ball: anti-woke trans hatred.

    If she can’t even manage to get a grip of her favourite topic then heaven help the tories.

    As I said yesterday, she manages to be both nasty AND incompetent.

    @TSE
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,522
    Mr. JohnL, point of order: without commenting on the Letby case specifically, being attractive (and being a woman) does increase the chance of being found innocent rather than guilty.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Nigelb said:

    This is crazy stuff.

    Not only did the Romanian air force not shoot down russian drones in their airspace, they escorted them with F-16s for over 100 km from Năvodari to the UA-RO international border so they could strike targets in Odesa region.
    https://x.com/mhmck/status/1832815563371848143

    I don't particularly blame Romania, as it's likely NATO consensus not to 'escalate'.
    The message it sends is that NATO doesn't even have the resolve to defend its own airspace.
    That does not augur well for any peace agreement after the war in Ukraine. Without credible deterrence, Russia will try again.

    Well, once RoAF light it up with 20 mil, there's no saying where the wreckage is going to end up. So if it was obviously heading for Ukraine then it's better for Romania to let it get on its way.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481

    Mr. JohnL, point of order: without commenting on the Letby case specifically, being attractive (and being a woman) does increase the chance of being found innocent rather than guilty.

    or even for people to believe you are innocent when that may not actually be the case.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,855
    algarkirk said:

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    Not in a position to read this. If anyone does, please let us know if the article contains anything that could properly be described as an argument based on the actual evidence.
    Full article link, if it helps.
    https://archive.ph/8D27d
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,726
    Baseless claims of immigrants eating pets looks like a transparent effort to win back the cat ladies.
    https://x.com/BarbMcQuade/status/1833299012851536282

    It's funny how all the MAGA people are doing this Haitian fearmongering when the person involved in this election who is most likely to have actually eaten a cat is clearly Robert F Kennedy Jr
    https://x.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1833324467352641975
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,209
    edited September 10
    Greetings from Vancouver, British Columbia

    A city which, it turns out, is doing that fantastic thing we have previously identified on PB - “fulfilling all your most cliched tourist expectations” - like going to Paris and finding an impossibly rude waiter who flamboyantly shrugs at you, while wearing a beret

    In Vancouver’s case: the expectation fulfilled is “being ridiculously scenic and obviously liveable”

    Also, cracking oysters. Of COURSE it would have great oysters

    The strange orange bread dipping sauce in the little shallow jar is a reduction of lobster shells in butter - notably delicious




  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,415

    eek said:

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    The suggestion is that none of the above are competent to assess the evidence. There might not even have been a trial if they had been.
    It was up to the defence to put up a defence - the issue seems to be that there wasn't much of one - possibly because there isn't much that can be defended.

    It's remarkable how a pretty young nurse is getting a lot of attention in the way that Harold Shipman didn't given they seem to have had a similar viewpoint in life.
    Eh? Harold Shipman did get a lot of attention, and was played by James Bolam on the telly.

    And that Alan Bates geezer in the Post Office row. He must be a right looker.

    The idea that Letby's convictions are in question because she is "pretty" (is she?) is the laziest trope, and for which there are numerous counter-examples.
    “ And that Alan Bates geezer in the Post Office row. He must be a right looker.”

    Not to mention the calendars released by the Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4….
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,895
    Leon said:

    Greetings from Vancouver, British Columbia

    A city which, it turns out, is doing that fantastic thing we have previously identified on PB - “fulfilling all your most cliched tourist expectations” - like going to Paris and finding an impossibly rude waiter who flamboyantly shrugs at you, while wearing a beret

    In Vancouver’s case: the expectation fulfilled is “being ridiculously scenic and obviously liveable”

    Also, cracking oysters. Of COURSE it would have great oysters

    The strange orange bread dipping sauce in the little shallow jar is a reduction of lobster shells in butter - notably delicious




    Haiti next?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,855
    edited September 10
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading a bit about Jenrick (better late than never) I am now a huge fan.

    Done for speeding twice on arguably the two most irritating stretches of speed-controlled roads on the planet - the M1 variable speed section, presumably where they have those stupid metal barriers up, and, as people will know on PB, my personal bete noir - the Westway in London.

    Good for him.

    We need to know what car he has before we can be fully paid up Jenrick dick riders.
    Land Rover apparently (no model info available unfortunately for full eeugh/dick riding potential).
    Haha,
    Cleverly is also a Landy boy. Tugendhat was a Skoda 4x4, but it was in Wandsworth.

    If Kemi Badenoch's claim about driving into a waist-deep "flash flood" and having to wade out of it with hubby is true, perhaps she'll be getting one too.

    As she said "the water came from nowhere", which I think is another version of "I (or husband) was driving too fast into the dip to stop in time", but that might be being a little over-sceptical in some circumstances.

    Telegraph seems very keen on mentioning the high heels:
    https://archive.ph/ozTlO
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,209
    edited September 10
    Selebian said:

    eek said:

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    The suggestion is that none of the above are competent to assess the evidence. There might not even have been a trial if they had been.
    It was up to the defence to put up a defence - the issue seems to be that there wasn't much of one - possibly because there isn't much that can be defended.

    It's remarkable how a pretty young nurse is getting a lot of attention in the way that Harold Shipman didn't given they seem to have had a similar viewpoint in life.
    Eh? Harold Shipman did get a lot of attention, and was played by James Bolam on the telly.

    And that Alan Bates geezer in the Post Office row. He must be a right looker.

    The idea that Letby's convictions are in question because she is "pretty" (is she?) is the laziest trope, and for which there are numerous counter-examples.
    I also don't get the 'pretty young nurse' thing - eye of the beholder, I guess. Either that or all the press photos are highly unflattering.
    Letby is seriously plain, if anything

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,056

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    Which does make one wonder about improvements.

    If no one in the chain could check the use of statistical evidence…

    Brings to mind some convictions that turned out to be flawed - the DNA evidence didn’t actually prove beyond reasonable doubt.
    I’ve not spent a huge amount of time thinking about this.

    But I thought the criticism was of the partial selection of the statistical evidence *presented to the jury*.

    Not that it was wrong, but that it was partial and designed to convince the jury of the case.

    And you can’t take a single piece of evidence in isolation and say “this didn’t work therefore the conviction is flawed”. Juries form their view based on the totality of evidence
    Like everyone else I have not read the transcripts of the trial, but SFAICS there is a regular confusion about statistical evidence.

    At the trial evidence was presented that in each of the alleged incidents (murder and attempted murder) Letby was on duty in a material place; and that as a matter of fact no other person was on duty at all or significant numbers of times at these incidents.

    This is not statistical evidence, it is ordinary factual evidence. Without it there could have been no case as if she could not be shown to be present there is no case to answer in each case.

    The critics now are saying: statistical evidence was not presented of the rotas more generally, about every possible incident of unexpected harm etc to a child, and this may have shown (I suppose) either other murderers as possible suspects, or a pattern to show the deaths were not criminal.

    The defence are entitled to go down that track and didn't. Probably because it could not work. The prosecution would not have wanted to go there as it was not part of their case.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,209
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Greetings from Vancouver, British Columbia

    A city which, it turns out, is doing that fantastic thing we have previously identified on PB - “fulfilling all your most cliched tourist expectations” - like going to Paris and finding an impossibly rude waiter who flamboyantly shrugs at you, while wearing a beret

    In Vancouver’s case: the expectation fulfilled is “being ridiculously scenic and obviously liveable”

    Also, cracking oysters. Of COURSE it would have great oysters

    The strange orange bread dipping sauce in the little shallow jar is a reduction of lobster shells in butter - notably delicious




    Haiti next?
    Well, I’ve heard the locals take a very unsentimental view of the domestic cat, so I’d fit right in
  • Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    eek said:

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    The suggestion is that none of the above are competent to assess the evidence. There might not even have been a trial if they had been.
    It was up to the defence to put up a defence - the issue seems to be that there wasn't much of one - possibly because there isn't much that can be defended.

    It's remarkable how a pretty young nurse is getting a lot of attention in the way that Harold Shipman didn't given they seem to have had a similar viewpoint in life.
    Eh? Harold Shipman did get a lot of attention, and was played by James Bolam on the telly.

    And that Alan Bates geezer in the Post Office row. He must be a right looker.

    The idea that Letby's convictions are in question because she is "pretty" (is she?) is the laziest trope, and for which there are numerous counter-examples.
    I also don't get the 'pretty young nurse' thing - eye of the beholder, I guess. Either that or all the press photos are highly unflattering.
    Letby is seriously plain, if anything

    Those other "nurses" weren't actually nurses, you.know.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,242
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading a bit about Jenrick (better late than never) I am now a huge fan.

    Done for speeding twice on arguably the two most irritating stretches of speed-controlled roads on the planet - the M1 variable speed section, presumably where they have those stupid metal barriers up, and, as people will know on PB, my personal bete noir - the Westway in London.

    Good for him.

    We need to know what car he has before we can be fully paid up Jenrick dick riders.
    Land Rover apparently (no model info available unfortunately for full eeugh/dick riding potential).
    Haha,
    What's that - a quiet murmur of admiration or an "I knew it" sneer of utter contempt?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    Which does make one wonder about improvements.

    If no one in the chain could check the use of statistical evidence…

    Brings to mind some convictions that turned out to be flawed - the DNA evidence didn’t actually prove beyond reasonable doubt.
    I’ve not spent a huge amount of time thinking about this.

    But I thought the criticism was of the partial selection of the statistical evidence *presented to the jury*.

    Not that it was wrong, but that it was partial and designed to convince the jury of the case.

    And you can’t take a single piece of evidence in isolation and say “this didn’t work therefore the conviction is flawed”. Juries form their view based on the totality of evidence
    If it's partial and bent, er designed to reach one solution, then I suppose you are right in that it is wrong, but only in the sense that it is so bad it can't even be wrong or right.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,449
    Nigelb said:

    Baseless claims of immigrants eating pets looks like a transparent effort to win back the cat ladies.
    https://x.com/BarbMcQuade/status/1833299012851536282

    It's funny how all the MAGA people are doing this Haitian fearmongering when the person involved in this election who is most likely to have actually eaten a cat is clearly Robert F Kennedy Jr
    https://x.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1833324467352641975

    Don't mention cats on here.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,097
    algarkirk said:

    Selebian said:

    On topic, Badenoch has - once again - misdiagnosed the problem. It's not tactical voting that is scuppering her chances, it's the blistering editorial critique of her campaign and her record on the influential site politicalbetting.com :wink:

    It's not really complicated. If 41 MPs really want her then it is extremely easy to ensure she goes to the members. A smaller number may suffice, but if you don't have the loyalty of a third of the MPs you should not be in the last two. The same rules apply to them all.

    BTW is Cleverly positioning himself as the only one who can get votes from drys and wets?
    The flaw in this argument is that if one of the two on the ballot only got there because of votes "lent" by the leading candidate, then in reality they don't have the loyalty of a third or Tory MPs either.

    What I really don't see is what Tory MPs see in Jenrick. I don't like the idea of some of the other contenders, but I can make a plausible case for any of them. Jenrick just seems to have mountains of sleezey baggage and little else.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,209

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    eek said:

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    The suggestion is that none of the above are competent to assess the evidence. There might not even have been a trial if they had been.
    It was up to the defence to put up a defence - the issue seems to be that there wasn't much of one - possibly because there isn't much that can be defended.

    It's remarkable how a pretty young nurse is getting a lot of attention in the way that Harold Shipman didn't given they seem to have had a similar viewpoint in life.
    Eh? Harold Shipman did get a lot of attention, and was played by James Bolam on the telly.

    And that Alan Bates geezer in the Post Office row. He must be a right looker.

    The idea that Letby's convictions are in question because she is "pretty" (is she?) is the laziest trope, and for which there are numerous counter-examples.
    I also don't get the 'pretty young nurse' thing - eye of the beholder, I guess. Either that or all the press photos are highly unflattering.
    Letby is seriously plain, if anything

    Those other "nurses" weren't actually nurses, you.know.
    I once dated a pretty nurse at St Barts. Used to tup her in her cute nurse’s uniform barely 30 yards from where Bloody Mary burned the Protestant Martyrs

    I don’t know which turned me on more
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,280
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Greetings from Vancouver, British Columbia

    A city which, it turns out, is doing that fantastic thing we have previously identified on PB - “fulfilling all your most cliched tourist expectations” - like going to Paris and finding an impossibly rude waiter who flamboyantly shrugs at you, while wearing a beret

    In Vancouver’s case: the expectation fulfilled is “being ridiculously scenic and obviously liveable”

    Also, cracking oysters. Of COURSE it would have great oysters

    The strange orange bread dipping sauce in the little shallow jar is a reduction of lobster shells in butter - notably delicious



    Haiti next?
    Well, I’ve heard the locals take a very unsentimental view of the domestic cat, so I’d fit right in
    PB’s resident pussy eater.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452
    algarkirk said:

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    It’s not their job to weigh the evidence

    The consultants are supposed to protect patients

    The prosecution builds a case (I’m sure they were looking for weak links)

    The judges assess whether the law has been followed

    The jury makes their decision


    Which does make one wonder about improvements.

    If no one in the chain could check the use of statistical evidence…

    Brings to mind some convictions that turned out to be flawed - the DNA evidence didn’t actually prove beyond reasonable doubt.
    I’ve not spent a huge amount of time thinking about this.

    But I thought the criticism was of the partial selection of the statistical evidence *presented to the jury*.

    Not that it was wrong, but that it was partial and designed to convince the jury of the case.

    And you can’t take a single piece of evidence in isolation and say “this didn’t work therefore the conviction is flawed”. Juries form their view based on the totality of evidence
    Like everyone else I have not read the transcripts of the trial, but SFAICS there is a regular confusion about statistical evidence.

    At the trial evidence was presented that in each of the alleged incidents (murder and attempted murder) Letby was on duty in a material place; and that as a matter of fact no other person was on duty at all or significant numbers of times at these incidents.

    This is not statistical evidence, it is ordinary factual evidence. Without it there could have been no case as if she could not be shown to be present there is no case to answer in each case.

    The critics now are saying: statistical evidence was not presented of the rotas more generally, about every possible incident of unexpected harm etc to a child, and this may have shown (I suppose) either other murderers as possible suspects, or a pattern to show the deaths were not criminal.

    The defence are entitled to go down that track and didn't. Probably because it could not work. The prosecution would not have wanted to go there as it was not part of their case.
    That IS statistical evidence - effectively seeking to demonstrate certainty.

    It's been argued that the tabulation in question was selective and that the full tabulation has other persons as possible suspects, as indeed one would expect from random chance - which therefore includes Letby. If Letby's correlation canm be explained as chance ...

    There's also a suggestion that the data are unreliable (bad recording, last minute changes and swaps, early/late shift changeovers).
  • Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Greetings from Vancouver, British Columbia

    A city which, it turns out, is doing that fantastic thing we have previously identified on PB - “fulfilling all your most cliched tourist expectations” - like going to Paris and finding an impossibly rude waiter who flamboyantly shrugs at you, while wearing a beret

    In Vancouver’s case: the expectation fulfilled is “being ridiculously scenic and obviously liveable”

    Also, cracking oysters. Of COURSE it would have great oysters

    The strange orange bread dipping sauce in the little shallow jar is a reduction of lobster shells in butter - notably delicious




    Haiti next?
    Well, I’ve heard the locals take a very unsentimental view of the domestic cat, so I’d fit right in
    Probably a very unsentimental view of you and all.

    'Elon Musk, right-wing media personalities post unverified claims about cannibalism in Haiti'

    I shall be the first to say 'it's what he would have wanted' when the tragic reports of semi digested Leon come through.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452

    Nigelb said:

    Baseless claims of immigrants eating pets looks like a transparent effort to win back the cat ladies.
    https://x.com/BarbMcQuade/status/1833299012851536282

    It's funny how all the MAGA people are doing this Haitian fearmongering when the person involved in this election who is most likely to have actually eaten a cat is clearly Robert F Kennedy Jr
    https://x.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1833324467352641975

    Don't mention cats on here.
    Or dogs (XL Bully variety, or not but invariably assumed to be by the media or half of PB every time some dog bites someone).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,209
    edited September 10
    Seriously tho. Vancouver. Any other PB-ers been?

    I’ve been here 12 hours but already I’m thinking, wow, what a blessed place. Like the nicest city in the USA - minus the guns (but they do have some homeless)

    Shame it’s a bit cool and grey - tho I note they do get 2,000 hours of annual sunshine, which places it well ahead of London and about the same as Lyon or Milan
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,056
    MattW said:

    algarkirk said:

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    Not in a position to read this. If anyone does, please let us know if the article contains anything that could properly be described as an argument based on the actual evidence.
    Full article link, if it helps.
    https://archive.ph/8D27d
    Thanks. Nothing new. He even relies on the fact that there is no smoking gun, and that several cumulative threads of evidence are used as if that makes it unsafe. he assumes that scientists come to false conclusions quite easily and ignores the fact that the defence didn't call their own expert evidence. He is highly misleading on the statistics question. He claims there are several 'grounds' for an appeal, but cannot produce a sentence or short paragraph as an instance. All the critics fall down on the issue of focussing their points precisely.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,855
    edited September 10
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    As a general thing I think we should stop lauding politicians for announcing initiatives and take a cynical attitude because mostly its all fart and no follow through. If Labour manages to build 1.5 million houses I will be the first to applaud.

    Till they actually do however they deserve no plaudit's for announcing stuff and bunging money at initiatives because lets face it is not like history shows us its easy to make announcements....levelling up, immigration down to 10s of thousand, building 1.5 million houses in 5 years.

    When it happens then its time to say well done, not when some scheme is announced. We would all be better being more cynical about these things and show politicians if they want to reap the benefit they have to actually achieve

    It's spin .

    We built about 1,2 million houses in the last 5 years. So Starmer is only proposing another 300k new builds. In reality we need 1.5 million houses in the next 5 years on top of the 1.2 million we already build if it is to have any impact.

    According to the official ONS statistics, those numbers are way over the top - by about 35-40%.

    Starts Apr 2019 to Mar 2024: 886,867
    Completions Apr 2019 to Mar 2024: 976,167

    For comparison

    Starts Apr 2014 to Mar 2019: 815,620
    Completions Apr 2014 to Mar 2019: 761,840

    The 2019 to 2024 numbers include my straight line extrapolation over the 2 year COVID period, which is very generous and may be adding an extra 100k to the number. There are adjustments and minor category inclusions and exclusion I expect, but not to that extent.

    It is notable that starts in the 2023-2024 period were only ~150k, which I suggest is down to the Election and Sunak's NIMBY-pandering.

    For the Starmer promise, I think they may hit around 1.2 million in the first 5 years, and 1.5 million in the second 5 years if they get 2 terms. That will be doing well.

    It's worth remembering that we will not know the out-turn until around 5.5 years from now, so it will be a guessing game at the next Election.

    Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/datasets/ukhousebuildingpermanentdwellingsstartedandcompleted
    SKS and AlanBrooke will be pleased to know that the Pointers are doing their bit - we've just bought a building pot and plan to build our own (planners permitting). Exciting times.
    Completion 2032 if you do well :smile: .
    Mrs P has specified completion by Christmas 2026.

    Planners, architects, builders, building inspectors... you have been warned.
    I'm nearly inclined to offer you a charity bet on that, @Benpointer - being in for Christmas 2026, which TBF is slightly different from Completion, depending on how it is defined. Starting from a naked plot with no PP that would be nearly unprecedented in my experience. Have you already applied for Planning already?

    I think the only way I can see that being achieved is a turnkey package from a TF company, possibly with a professional half -> full time project manager, and services in place.

    Though I appreciate you very much know the ropes.

    Say loser pays £100 to Wheels for Wellbeing.

    How confident are you, and what would your terms be?
    I have the disadvantage of not knowing where Ben is but I think if you get planning permission before Christmas you will be doing very well...
    Ben mentioned it the other week - a smallish town Dorset / Somerset way iirc.

    I've started a new thread over on BH asking the question anonymously, as we do a "how long does it take" every so often. Since we now have nearly 20k members (though many stay for a time and then drop out), there should be a few posts. My normal suggested range is 2-5 years with PP already in place, or 3-7 from scratch.
    https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/40417-have-you-gone-from-planning-app-to-moving-in-in-~2-yeas/

    I have one example of 2 years 3 months so far, and that was on a sloping site needing a big retaining wall.

    My punt is that it will be only 5% who do it, but that most take a longer timescale to be able to be more involved and do work themselves, so it is a skewed sample.

    For me, there are too many unknowns that can throw it off, especially underground unknowns.

    But I'm delighted Ben has the plot and is moving it on.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452
    Leon said:

    Seriously tho. Vancouver. Any other PB-ers been?

    I’ve been here 12 hours but already I’m thinking, wow, what a blessed place. Like the nicest city in the USA - minus the guns (but they do have some homeless)

    Shame it’s a bit cool and grey - tho I note they do get 2,000 hours of annual sunshine, which places it well ahead of London and about the same as Lyon or Milan

    Chedck out the winter climate? I'd assume maritime like the UK, but who knows?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,209

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Greetings from Vancouver, British Columbia

    A city which, it turns out, is doing that fantastic thing we have previously identified on PB - “fulfilling all your most cliched tourist expectations” - like going to Paris and finding an impossibly rude waiter who flamboyantly shrugs at you, while wearing a beret

    In Vancouver’s case: the expectation fulfilled is “being ridiculously scenic and obviously liveable”

    Also, cracking oysters. Of COURSE it would have great oysters

    The strange orange bread dipping sauce in the little shallow jar is a reduction of lobster shells in butter - notably delicious




    Haiti next?
    Well, I’ve heard the locals take a very unsentimental view of the domestic cat, so I’d fit right in
    Probably a very unsentimental view of you and all.

    'Elon Musk, right-wing media personalities post unverified claims about cannibalism in Haiti'

    I shall be the first to say 'it's what he would have wanted' when the tragic reports of semi digested Leon come through.
    I have some extremely hardcore journalist/security friends who’ve done stints in the worst war zones - from Iraq to grozny - who independently tell me Haiti is the scariest place bar none (and this was BEFORE the recent breakdown in law n order)

    Also, is the cannibalism unverified?! IIRC there is video of a guy actually roasting an enemy and eating a chunk of him live on camera, and it has not been questioned (but I could be wrong)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,522
    Mr. Leon, is Haiti next door to the Dominican Republic? If memory serves there's a pretty stark gap in living standards at that border, up there with North and South Korea.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452
    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    algarkirk said:

    OT already

    Letby’s conviction is unsafe, says Boris Johnson’s former science adviser
    Evidence presented to the jury was so flawed as to make it not a fair trial, argues James Phillips
    ...
    “It was not, and is not, apparent to me that anyone in the chain of events leading from Letby being placed under suspicion by the consultants to the three-judge appeal being turned down had the skillset or perspective needed to detect potentially catastrophically weak links in this web of evidential relationships.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/lucy-letby-conviction-unsafe-says-boris-johnson-adviser/ (£££)

    Not in a position to read this. If anyone does, please let us know if the article contains anything that could properly be described as an argument based on the actual evidence.
    Full article link, if it helps.
    https://archive.ph/8D27d
    Thanks. Nothing new. He even relies on the fact that there is no smoking gun, and that several cumulative threads of evidence are used as if that makes it unsafe. he assumes that scientists come to false conclusions quite easily and ignores the fact that the defence didn't call their own expert evidence. He is highly misleading on the statistics question. He claims there are several 'grounds' for an appeal, but cannot produce a sentence or short paragraph as an instance. All the critics fall down on the issue of focussing their points precisely.
    But he's a neuroscientist, so presumably not a specialist statistician? As I understand it, statisticians are also unhappy. And it is a journalistic piece summarised and partly quoted rather than an op-ed essay.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,504
    Heathener said:

    My friend Mishal Husain eviscerated Kemi Badenoch on R4’s Today, and that was on her strongest wrecking ball: anti-woke trans hatred.

    If she can’t even manage to get a grip of her favourite topic then heaven help the tories.

    As I said yesterday, she manages to be both nasty AND incompetent.

    @TSE

    My friend Bob Hope is asking if you can let us know what specifically she said that is nasty.

    tia
  • TimS said:

    This polling result is hilarious. Conservative members’ views on why they lost the election vs those of the general public:

    https://x.com/yougov/status/1833413364434808915?s=46

    The hilarious thing is that all the reasons are valid ones.

    And I could add a few more.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,440
    So David Knowles, main voice of the Telegraph's "Ukraine: the latest" podcast, has died of a heart attack whilst abroad.

    Aged 32.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/09/david-knowles-journalist-telegraph-dies-ukraine-war-podcast/
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,895
    edited September 10
    Leon said:

    Seriously tho. Vancouver. Any other PB-ers been?

    I’ve been here 12 hours but already I’m thinking, wow, what a blessed place. Like the nicest city in the USA - minus the guns (but they do have some homeless)

    Shame it’s a bit cool and grey - tho I note they do get 2,000 hours of annual sunshine, which places it well ahead of London and about the same as Lyon or Milan

    Yes. Good cycling infrastructure too, which makes it very unusual for North America.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,209
    edited September 10
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Seriously tho. Vancouver. Any other PB-ers been?

    I’ve been here 12 hours but already I’m thinking, wow, what a blessed place. Like the nicest city in the USA - minus the guns (but they do have some homeless)

    Shame it’s a bit cool and grey - tho I note they do get 2,000 hours of annual sunshine, which places it well ahead of London and about the same as Lyon or Milan

    Chedck out the winter climate? I'd assume maritime like the UK, but who knows?
    Yes, similar to southern England

    But it has this spectacular location on multiple islands, backdropped by green forested mountains; add in the skyscrapers and it’s like an Alpine Hong Kong
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,107

    Mr. Leon, is Haiti next door to the Dominican Republic? If memory serves there's a pretty stark gap in living standards at that border, up there with North and South Korea.

    One of those great land use borders visible from space, like Guatemala and Belize. Eroded and degraded farmland one side, verdant forest the other.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,209
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Seriously tho. Vancouver. Any other PB-ers been?

    I’ve been here 12 hours but already I’m thinking, wow, what a blessed place. Like the nicest city in the USA - minus the guns (but they do have some homeless)

    Shame it’s a bit cool and grey - tho I note they do get 2,000 hours of annual sunshine, which places it well ahead of London and about the same as Lyon or Milan

    Yes. Good cycling infrastructure too, which makes it very unusual for North America.
    And a very walkable downtown

    And superb sweet native oysters are £2 a pop in a fairly posh local oyster bar (3 minutes from my hotel). And they offer them with shallot mignonette, ketchup and horseradish, and ponzu

    I’m smitten
Sign In or Register to comment.