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Could the economy win it for Kamala Harris? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,047
edited August 27 in General
Could the economy win it for Kamala Harris? – politicalbetting.com

Kamala Harris' economic platform resonates across party lines.(@taylor_orth @YouGovAmerica)More, via Opinion Today:https://t.co/zLCBxNJaKf pic.twitter.com/gV3ShQGBZe

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  • Second like Don
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,470
    Issue for Harris could well be recession arriving this autumn.

  • TazTaz Posts: 13,605

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    The MSM are too busy fawning over her to give her any scrutiny.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    Taz said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    The MSM are too busy fawning over her to give her any scrutiny.
    This MSM?


  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,091

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    TBF she's had a lot less time than Starmer to set out her stall. And how many voters vote based on policy detail anyway?

    (There's a reasonable argument for not putting too much weight on policy detail when deciding who to vote for -- a lot of a government's decisions will be about and in the context of unpredictable future events. So it's more important to pick someone you trust to be making decisions on a set of principles and values you agree with, than to pick someone who's currently saying they'd do XYZ -- though of course what they say they'll do is evidence for their principles and values.)


  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,214
    I get the sense that the Trump campaign is really struggling. It is difficult for them to appeal to 'the middle ground' because they have inbuilt inclination towards radical ideas/policies.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,069
    Amazed to see that offers of free money have support from the general public in the USA. This is deeply counter intuitive and could never happen here.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,605

    Taz said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    The MSM are too busy fawning over her to give her any scrutiny.
    This MSM?


    Micro v Macro. Of course a few are critical but as has been pointed out by the likes of Michael Crick and Andrew Neil these are very much the exception.
  • Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Are policies a good thing?

    I’d vote character. Events and practicality will probably do for the policy agenda soon enough.

    But who you have dealing with events matters. I think it is where Starmer shines in his dull way. Sure he will play it to his advantage, but he will engage.

    Playing at politics like Johnson, that’s what we don’t want.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    pm215 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    TBF she's had a lot less time than Starmer to set out her stall. And how many voters vote based on policy detail anyway?

    (There's a reasonable argument for not putting too much weight on policy detail when deciding who to vote for -- a lot of a government's decisions will be about and in the context of unpredictable future events. So it's more important to pick someone you trust to be making decisions on a set of principles and values you agree with, than to pick someone who's currently saying they'd do XYZ -- though of course what they say they'll do is evidence for their principles and values.)


    She has principles and if ypu dont like them she has others.

    https://www.axios.com/2024/08/27/kamala-harris-flip-flops-border-wall
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    pm215 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    TBF she's had a lot less time than Starmer to set out her stall. And how many voters vote based on policy detail anyway?

    (There's a reasonable argument for not putting too much weight on policy detail when deciding who to vote for -- a lot of a government's decisions will be about and in the context of unpredictable future events. So it's more important to pick someone you trust to be making decisions on a set of principles and values you agree with, than to pick someone who's currently saying they'd do XYZ -- though of course what they say they'll do is evidence for their principles and values.)


    she's been the veep for 4 years, at the heart of government. How much longer does she need ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,551

    pm215 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    TBF she's had a lot less time than Starmer to set out her stall. And how many voters vote based on policy detail anyway?

    (There's a reasonable argument for not putting too much weight on policy detail when deciding who to vote for -- a lot of a government's decisions will be about and in the context of unpredictable future events. So it's more important to pick someone you trust to be making decisions on a set of principles and values you agree with, than to pick someone who's currently saying they'd do XYZ -- though of course what they say they'll do is evidence for their principles and values.)


    She has principles and if ypu dont like them she has others.

    https://www.axios.com/2024/08/27/kamala-harris-flip-flops-border-wall
    Good point. I despise the kind of politician who has two contrary speeches in his jacket pockets and pulls out the one simply because it will curry favour with his next voter cohort.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314
    Taz said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    The MSM are too busy fawning over her to give her any scrutiny.
    She’s done no interviews at all in the last 40 days, and when she’s spoken at all unscripted it’s been nothing but word salad.

    The closest their conference got to a policy was price controls, and the biggest cheers of the week were for abortions, while everyone does their best to ignore that she’s been VP for the past three years.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Are policies a good thing?

    I’d vote character. Events and practicality will probably do for the policy agenda soon enough.

    But who you have dealing with events matters. I think it is where Starmer shines in his dull way. Sure he will play it to his advantage, but he will engage.

    Playing at politics like Johnson, that’s what we don’t want.

    Well if you want serious politics polices matter. Otherwise you might as well have BGT elections.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,214
    Rory Stewart had a brilliant insight on Starmer. He suggested that he had realised people didn't want to deal with difficult questions and so the way to win an election, is by running a campaign that avoids difficult questions. What I think we see now is that, when in power, the difficult questions are unavoidable.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,196

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    So, she'll win by a huge margin? Phew!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    So, she'll win by a huge margin? Phew!
    She may well do. And then she will drown in a poonami of her own making.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,605
    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You seem to be conceding that being Starmer 2.0 would be a bad thing.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,196
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    The MSM are too busy fawning over her to give her any scrutiny.
    This MSM?


    Micro v Macro. Of course a few are critical but as has been pointed out by the likes of Michael Crick and Andrew Neil these are very much the exception.
    Bollocks. The US media is very divided. The GOP-supporting hate her, the Dem-supporting love her.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206

    pm215 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    TBF she's had a lot less time than Starmer to set out her stall. And how many voters vote based on policy detail anyway?

    (There's a reasonable argument for not putting too much weight on policy detail when deciding who to vote for -- a lot of a government's decisions will be about and in the context of unpredictable future events. So it's more important to pick someone you trust to be making decisions on a set of principles and values you agree with, than to pick someone who's currently saying they'd do XYZ -- though of course what they say they'll do is evidence for their principles and values.)


    She has principles and if ypu dont like them she has others.

    https://www.axios.com/2024/08/27/kamala-harris-flip-flops-border-wall
    Good point. I despise the kind of politician who has two contrary speeches in his jacket pockets and pulls out the one simply because it will curry favour with his next voter cohort.
    Pedro so do I. There we agree on something.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,520

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    At least she seems able to inspire people, rather than send them into a doom spiral of misery.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    .

    pm215 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    TBF she's had a lot less time than Starmer to set out her stall. And how many voters vote based on policy detail anyway?

    (There's a reasonable argument for not putting too much weight on policy detail when deciding who to vote for -- a lot of a government's decisions will be about and in the context of unpredictable future events. So it's more important to pick someone you trust to be making decisions on a set of principles and values you agree with, than to pick someone who's currently saying they'd do XYZ -- though of course what they say they'll do is evidence for their principles and values.)


    She has principles and if ypu dont like them she has others.

    https://www.axios.com/2024/08/27/kamala-harris-flip-flops-border-wall
    She pledged, if President, to advocate for, and to sign the border bill which Republicans in Congress rejected.
    It was a bipartisan deal - hence the commitment to spend the unspent funds for the 'wall'. Trump instructed his GOP followers to sink it, which they duly did.

    Try harder.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,440
    Between Kamala's mad unrealised gains tax & Trump's tariffs it's a rum choice on the economy for US voters.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You are really living in the wrong country. Go stateside and buy a house in Massachusetts.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You seem to be conceding that being Starmer 2.0 would be a bad thing.
    No, I'm making the point that it's a risible comparison.
    Not least since the ability of a President to enact policy is far more constrained than that of a PM.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,196

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Are policies a good thing?

    I’d vote character. Events and practicality will probably do for the policy agenda soon enough.

    But who you have dealing with events matters. I think it is where Starmer shines in his dull way. Sure he will play it to his advantage, but he will engage.

    Playing at politics like Johnson, that’s what we don’t want.

    Well if you want serious politics polices matter. Otherwise you might as well have BGT elections.
    Well, if you want serious politics, you could turn to Trum... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    Nigelb said:

    .

    pm215 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    TBF she's had a lot less time than Starmer to set out her stall. And how many voters vote based on policy detail anyway?

    (There's a reasonable argument for not putting too much weight on policy detail when deciding who to vote for -- a lot of a government's decisions will be about and in the context of unpredictable future events. So it's more important to pick someone you trust to be making decisions on a set of principles and values you agree with, than to pick someone who's currently saying they'd do XYZ -- though of course what they say they'll do is evidence for their principles and values.)


    She has principles and if ypu dont like them she has others.

    https://www.axios.com/2024/08/27/kamala-harris-flip-flops-border-wall
    She pledged, if President, to advocate for, and to sign the border bill which Republicans in Congress rejected.
    It was a bipartisan deal - hence the commitment to spend the unspent funds for the 'wall'. Trump instructed his GOP followers to sink it, which they duly did.

    Try harder.
    I dont need to. She could have stop illegals and chose not to. Now shes aping Trump. Badly.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    At least she seems able to inspire people, rather than send them into a doom spiral of misery.
    Well Starmer has his on style.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,196

    Nigelb said:

    .

    pm215 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    TBF she's had a lot less time than Starmer to set out her stall. And how many voters vote based on policy detail anyway?

    (There's a reasonable argument for not putting too much weight on policy detail when deciding who to vote for -- a lot of a government's decisions will be about and in the context of unpredictable future events. So it's more important to pick someone you trust to be making decisions on a set of principles and values you agree with, than to pick someone who's currently saying they'd do XYZ -- though of course what they say they'll do is evidence for their principles and values.)


    She has principles and if ypu dont like them she has others.

    https://www.axios.com/2024/08/27/kamala-harris-flip-flops-border-wall
    She pledged, if President, to advocate for, and to sign the border bill which Republicans in Congress rejected.
    It was a bipartisan deal - hence the commitment to spend the unspent funds for the 'wall'. Trump instructed his GOP followers to sink it, which they duly did.

    Try harder.
    I dont need to. She could have stop illegals and chose not to. Now shes aping Trump. Badly.
    How is she aping Trump? Has she sexually assaulted anyone? Has she tried to overthrow any democratic elections?

    Has she insulted the military? Has she insulted those with disabilities?

    Has she started waving to empty airfields and cheating at golf?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You are really living in the wrong country. Go stateside and buy a house in Massachusetts.
    You're just sore about your ignorance.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You seem to be conceding that being Starmer 2.0 would be a bad thing.
    No, I'm making the point that it's a risible comparison.
    Not least since the ability of a President to enact policy is far more constrained than that of a PM.
    You also made the point that Biden was fit for office.

    I refer you to Bondegezou's recent post to save on pixels.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You are really living in the wrong country. Go stateside and buy a house in Massachusetts.
    You're just sore about your ignorance.
    I get quite a lot of US politics from my brother who follows the stuff. I just feel sorry for mugs who believe all their told.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,446

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You seem to be conceding that being Starmer 2.0 would be a bad thing.
    He may have a landslide majority in the Commons, but the party he led received only 33.7% of the vote. The only concession is to reality - Starmer is clearly not a colossus of electoral politics.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357
    Since Cameron no PMs have lasted in office longer than about 3 years. It'll be interesting to see if Starmer can do any better.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    I think that as people start to pay attention the economic record of Biden will stand Harris in good stead. Unemployment has fallen from 6.4% to 3.9%. Under Trump it increased from 4.7% to 6.4%. USA has been the fastest growing economy in the G7 for the last 2 years. Real wages are now growing rapidly. The US is doing very well.

    So, why so many think otherwise? I think that they have been fed a diet of relentless gloom by the lies of Fox and, increasingly, CNN who have been very critical of Biden. They have not liked the fact that taxes on the better paid have increased as the Trump tax cuts faded out. They are also (rightly) somewhat concerned with the deficit, although curiously that didn't worry them so much under Trump.

    As people look more at the figures some are coming to the view that the gloom has been overdone. Biden has pushed investment in both infrastructure (driven by Buttigieg) and encouraging domestic production, principally in chip manufacturing. Despite all the anxiety about ecological matters the US has become the largest oil producer in the world. None of the sort of nonsense we are seeing in the North Sea here. Their economy is in a better state than most looking forward.

    Trump still tends to lead on the economy but his lead has fallen sharply. He prefers to focus on immigration, crime and a smorgasbord of cultural issues. He is probably right to do so.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,196

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You seem to be conceding that being Starmer 2.0 would be a bad thing.
    He may have a landslide majority in the Commons, but the party he led received only 33.7% of the vote. The only concession is to reality - Starmer is clearly not a colossus of electoral politics.
    The reality that matters is the landslide majority in the Commons. You play the rules of the game. If we had a different electoral system, Starmer would have campaigned differently.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,643
    darkage said:

    Rory Stewart had a brilliant insight on Starmer. He suggested that he had realised people didn't want to deal with difficult questions and so the way to win an election, is by running a campaign that avoids difficult questions. What I think we see now is that, when in power, the difficult questions are unavoidable.

    That's hardly insight. It's basically what Blair did in 1997 and Cameron in 2010 (the "Big Society" anyone?).

    Stodge's Seventh Law of Politics states the truth may sometimes hurt, losing an election through being truthful always hurts.

    What did people expect? It may be Starmer has the answers - at least he's prepared to have a go unlike Sunak whose last 12 months in office were an exercise in inertia. Starmer has had to deal with the poor old battered can which has been kicked down the road so many times as to be almost inrecognisable.

    The painful truth for those of a Conservative inclination is we couldn't go on as we were - adrift. The Starmer Government will make mistakes - all Governments do - but at least they are trying to do something.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    HYUFD said:
    The policy is unworkable and will be killed off
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,766
    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.
    She's doing the classic sleazy politician's ruse of promising things that aren't in her gift. Industrial strategy, support for Ukraine, tariffs and the Trump tax cuts will be decided by Congress, where the Senate at least is highly likely to be Republican, or, if Democrat, only by a seat or two. Housing is for the states and localities and abortion is the states and the courts.

    So when, like most Presidents, she delivers maybe 5% of what she promises, she'll have plenty of other people to blame.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You seem to be conceding that being Starmer 2.0 would be a bad thing.
    He may have a landslide majority in the Commons, but the party he led received only 33.7% of the vote. The only concession is to reality - Starmer is clearly not a colossus of electoral politics.
    Also 20% of registered voters, which is probably about 18-19% of the adult population.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    HYUFD said:
    The corporate tax rate change requires only allowing the Trump tax cut (the single most expensive tax bill in history) to expire.

    Effective tax rates before and after the Trump tax law:

    Verizon
    Before: 21%
    After: 8%

    Walmart
    Before: 31%
    After: 17%

    AT&T
    Before: 13%
    After: 3%

    Walt Disney
    Before: 26%
    After: 8%

    FedEx
    Before: 18%
    After: 1%

    https://x.com/RBReich/status/1828152959563149683
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,661
    DavidL said:

    I think that as people start to pay attention the economic record of Biden will stand Harris in good stead. Unemployment has fallen from 6.4% to 3.9%. Under Trump it increased from 4.7% to 6.4%. USA has been the fastest growing economy in the G7 for the last 2 years. Real wages are now growing rapidly. The US is doing very well.

    So, why so many think otherwise? I think that they have been fed a diet of relentless gloom by the lies of Fox and, increasingly, CNN who have been very critical of Biden. They have not liked the fact that taxes on the better paid have increased as the Trump tax cuts faded out. They are also (rightly) somewhat concerned with the deficit, although curiously that didn't worry them so much under Trump.

    As people look more at the figures some are coming to the view that the gloom has been overdone. Biden has pushed investment in both infrastructure (driven by Buttigieg) and encouraging domestic production, principally in chip manufacturing. Despite all the anxiety about ecological matters the US has become the largest oil producer in the world. None of the sort of nonsense we are seeing in the North Sea here. Their economy is in a better state than most looking forward.

    Trump still tends to lead on the economy but his lead has fallen sharply. He prefers to focus on immigration, crime and a smorgasbord of cultural issues. He is probably right to do so.

    So far as Trump's enduring appeal on economics, I think you also have to bear in mind three other factors:

    1) The Republicans have always had a reputation for being economic managers and despite Trump's best efforts he is probably still benefiting from that subconscious bias among voters, regardless of the evidence. Bit like the Tories over here.

    2) Trump's reputation as a "very brilliant" businessman bolstered by his reality career on The Apprentice. It's obviously all smoke and mirrors but the impression persists particularly among "low information" voters who are impressed by golden escalators and glamour models.

    3) The self-interested support of the likes of Musk do give him some credibility to be good for business.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357
    RealClearPolitics still has Trump ahead in Pennsylvania by 0.2%.

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,003
    edited August 27
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:
    The corporate tax rate change requires only allowing the Trump tax cut (the single most expensive tax bill in history) to expire.

    Effective tax rates before and after the Trump tax law:

    Verizon
    Before: 21%
    After: 8%

    Walmart
    Before: 31%
    After: 17%

    AT&T
    Before: 13%
    After: 3%

    Walt Disney
    Before: 26%
    After: 8%

    FedEx
    Before: 18%
    After: 1%

    https://x.com/RBReich/status/1828152959563149683
    If Harris wins the US would have a corporation tax rate at 28%, even higher than ours at 25% and the OECD average rate of 23%
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,507
    stodge said:

    darkage said:

    Rory Stewart had a brilliant insight on Starmer. He suggested that he had realised people didn't want to deal with difficult questions and so the way to win an election, is by running a campaign that avoids difficult questions. What I think we see now is that, when in power, the difficult questions are unavoidable.

    That's hardly insight. It's basically what Blair did in 1997 and Cameron in 2010 (the "Big Society" anyone?).

    Stodge's Seventh Law of Politics states the truth may sometimes hurt, losing an election through being truthful always hurts.

    What did people expect? It may be Starmer has the answers - at least he's prepared to have a go unlike Sunak whose last 12 months in office were an exercise in inertia. Starmer has had to deal with the poor old battered can which has been kicked down the road so many times as to be almost inrecognisable.

    The painful truth for those of a Conservative inclination is we couldn't go on as we were - adrift. The Starmer Government will make mistakes - all Governments do - but at least they are trying to do something.
    Exactly right it's not searing insight (something I would credit neither Stewart or Campbell with the ability to provide), it's just bleedin' obvious.

    But we, the electorate, have shown time and again that's the way we prefer it. We prefer politicians to lie like cheap NAAFI watches before elections and then we love to hate them after the election when they need to tell the truth. Because they always need to tell the truth at some point.

    And do you know who we can thank for all of this? Lockdown and the various measures we implemented during Covid (at the risk of being boring - perish the thought - all foretold by @contrarian). And we the public applauded every single restrictive, expensive measure which has contributed so much to our present state. So we can hardly complain now when the bills have to be paid.

    Not that any politician will make any mention of that.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,135

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You seem to be conceding that being Starmer 2.0 would be a bad thing.
    He may have a landslide majority in the Commons, but the party he led received only 33.7% of the vote. The only concession is to reality - Starmer is clearly not a colossus of electoral politics.
    The reality that matters is the landslide majority in the Commons. You play the rules of the game. If we had a different electoral system, Starmer would have campaigned differently.
    And voters would have voted differently.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627

    DavidL said:

    I think that as people start to pay attention the economic record of Biden will stand Harris in good stead. Unemployment has fallen from 6.4% to 3.9%. Under Trump it increased from 4.7% to 6.4%. USA has been the fastest growing economy in the G7 for the last 2 years. Real wages are now growing rapidly. The US is doing very well.

    So, why so many think otherwise? I think that they have been fed a diet of relentless gloom by the lies of Fox and, increasingly, CNN who have been very critical of Biden. They have not liked the fact that taxes on the better paid have increased as the Trump tax cuts faded out. They are also (rightly) somewhat concerned with the deficit, although curiously that didn't worry them so much under Trump.

    As people look more at the figures some are coming to the view that the gloom has been overdone. Biden has pushed investment in both infrastructure (driven by Buttigieg) and encouraging domestic production, principally in chip manufacturing. Despite all the anxiety about ecological matters the US has become the largest oil producer in the world. None of the sort of nonsense we are seeing in the North Sea here. Their economy is in a better state than most looking forward.

    Trump still tends to lead on the economy but his lead has fallen sharply. He prefers to focus on immigration, crime and a smorgasbord of cultural issues. He is probably right to do so.

    So far as Trump's enduring appeal on economics, I think you also have to bear in mind three other factors:

    1) The Republicans have always had a reputation for being economic managers and despite Trump's best efforts he is probably still benefiting from that subconscious bias among voters, regardless of the evidence. Bit like the Tories over here.

    2) Trump's reputation as a "very brilliant" businessman bolstered by his reality career on The Apprentice. It's obviously all smoke and mirrors but the impression persists particularly among "low information" voters who are impressed by golden escalators and glamour models.

    3) The self-interested support of the likes of Musk do give him some credibility to be good for business.
    Although Musk’s mishandling of Twitter must cast doubt on his credentials as a businessman.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,003
    Andy_JS said:

    RealClearPolitics still has Trump ahead in Pennsylvania by 0.2%.

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris

    Harris led in the state by 2% when Kennedy Jr was included but he has now dropped out and endorsed Trump

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris-vs-kennedy-vs-west-vs-stein
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    The MSM are too busy fawning over her to give her any scrutiny.
    This MSM?


    Micro v Macro. Of course a few are critical but as has been pointed out by the likes of Michael Crick and Andrew Neil these are very much the exception.
    It's true: by far the most viewed news channel is nothing but pro-Kamala programming.

    I mean, they don't mean it to be, but whenever Jeanine Pirro comes on the screen, I feel an almost animalistic desire to vote for for Kamala Harris.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,643
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You seem to be conceding that being Starmer 2.0 would be a bad thing.
    He may have a landslide majority in the Commons, but the party he led received only 33.7% of the vote. The only concession is to reality - Starmer is clearly not a colossus of electoral politics.
    Also 20% of registered voters, which is probably about 18-19% of the adult population.
    All that means is a larger minority voted for Labour than voted Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Reform, Green or whatever.

    It doesn't invalidate or reduce Starmer's mandate one iota - if we're looking at actual votes, why not call the 1951 Conservative Government illegitimate? After all, Labour got more votes.

    No, July 4th illustrated the bankruptcy and absurdity of FPTP for those who hadn't realised it in the past. That's not the question, however, or the fact. The fact is Starmer won a majority in the Commons and has a mandate to govern. Whether he does so well or badly time will tell and we can pass judgement both on that and on the credibility of any of the alternative offerings at the next General Election.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,446

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You seem to be conceding that being Starmer 2.0 would be a bad thing.
    He may have a landslide majority in the Commons, but the party he led received only 33.7% of the vote. The only concession is to reality - Starmer is clearly not a colossus of electoral politics.
    The reality that matters is the landslide majority in the Commons. You play the rules of the game. If we had a different electoral system, Starmer would have campaigned differently.
    I don't buy the argument that Starmer is a master electoral strategist, marshalling voters only where he needed them, to win a huge majority with an economy of effort.

    He won a landslide majority only because the shambles of a Conservative party in government fell to their worst ever election result by a very wide margin. But it leaves Starmer as an exceptionally unpopular new PM with a majority built on sand.

    Maybe he can win the public round with effective action rather than rhetoric, but I tend to think that a leader who wants the country to follow them needs to be able to convince the country it's worth their while.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Let’s hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    She supported Trump?

    Huge, if true.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,196
    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.
    She's doing the classic sleazy politician's ruse of promising things that aren't in her gift. Industrial strategy, support for Ukraine, tariffs and the Trump tax cuts will be decided by Congress, where the Senate at least is highly likely to be Republican, or, if Democrat, only by a seat or two. Housing is for the states and localities and abortion is the states and the courts.

    So when, like most Presidents, she delivers maybe 5% of what she promises, she'll have plenty of other people to blame.
    The President has huge influence on what happens in Congress, including veto powers. Some industrial strategy and action on Ukraine can be done directly by the President. She is also effectively standing as the head of her party, who are standing in the congressional elections at the same time, so it is simpler to talk of the party's policies than to say get saying, "Well, vote for me, I can do this, and vote for your Senator who can do this, and vote for your representative who can do this."

    The President and Congress can also act on housing and abortion. The current situation on abortion is a direct result of Trump being elected President and appointing anti-abortion Supreme Court justices.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,605
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Let’s hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    She supported Trump?

    Huge, if true.
    I guess Welsh doesn't have indefinite articles?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Let’s hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    She supported Trump?

    Huge, if true.
    Huge.

    In fact ginormous.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:
    The corporate tax rate change requires only allowing the Trump tax cut (the single most expensive tax bill in history) to expire.

    Effective tax rates before and after the Trump tax law:

    Verizon
    Before: 21%
    After: 8%

    Walmart
    Before: 31%
    After: 17%

    AT&T
    Before: 13%
    After: 3%

    Walt Disney
    Before: 26%
    After: 8%

    FedEx
    Before: 18%
    After: 1%

    https://x.com/RBReich/status/1828152959563149683
    If Harris wins the US would have a corporation tax rate at 28%, even higher than ours at 25% and the OECD average rate of 23%
    So, it would have a corporate income tax level very slightly higher than average.

    Is there any evidence, beyond a few tax havens, that reducing corporation tax below (say) 20% actually benefits jobs and growth?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,766
    DavidL said:

    I think that as people start to pay attention the economic record of Biden will stand Harris in good stead. Unemployment has fallen from 6.4% to 3.9%. Under Trump it increased from 4.7% to 6.4%. USA has been the fastest growing economy in the G7 for the last 2 years. Real wages are now growing rapidly. The US is doing very well.

    So, why so many think otherwise? I think that they have been fed a diet of relentless gloom by the lies of Fox and, increasingly, CNN who have been very critical of Biden. They have not liked the fact that taxes on the better paid have increased as the Trump tax cuts faded out. They are also (rightly) somewhat concerned with the deficit, although curiously that didn't worry them so much under Trump.

    As people look more at the figures some are coming to the view that the gloom has been overdone. Biden has pushed investment in both infrastructure (driven by Buttigieg) and encouraging domestic production, principally in chip manufacturing. Despite all the anxiety about ecological matters the US has become the largest oil producer in the world. None of the sort of nonsense we are seeing in the North Sea here. Their economy is in a better state than most looking forward.

    Trump still tends to lead on the economy but his lead has fallen sharply. He prefers to focus on immigration, crime and a smorgasbord of cultural issues. He is probably right to do so.

    America's GDP growth rate is flattered by its population growth - if you adjust to GDP/capita, the growth is less impressive. I agree about energy - the US is doing moderately well partly by having much lower energy prices than Europe and mostly by drowning itself in debt. Most people in America that I talked to anyway when I was over a couple of months ago, even the economically unsophisticated ones, seemed to realise this. I was suprised by how many people there told me they were spending their pandemic-era savings from the generous direct support the US government provided and were now living off credit cards. Credit card delinquency rates have doubled since 2021.

    That might be alright if the US government were saving to compensate, but it is running a deficit of more than 6% of GDP, leading to debt/GDP ratios more than France and closing in on Italy. Lots of the investment has been wasted - many of the projects were never cost-effective, and others are well behind schedule, as repeatedly chronicled in e.g. the Economist, the WSJ and the FT

    And then there's the Biden-era inflation ...

    Overall, Biden's record on the economy is pretty poor if not disastrous.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,867

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You seem to be conceding that being Starmer 2.0 would be a bad thing.
    He may have a landslide majority in the Commons, but the party he led received only 33.7% of the vote. The only concession is to reality - Starmer is clearly not a colossus of electoral politics.
    The reality that matters is the landslide majority in the Commons. You play the rules of the game. If we had a different electoral system, Starmer would have campaigned differently.
    I don't buy the argument that Starmer is a master electoral strategist, marshalling voters only where he needed them, to win a huge majority with an economy of effort.

    He won a landslide majority only because the shambles of a Conservative party in government fell to their worst ever election result by a very wide margin. But it leaves Starmer as an exceptionally unpopular new PM with a majority built on sand.

    Maybe he can win the public round with effective action rather than rhetoric, but I tend to think that a leader who wants the country to follow them needs to be able to convince the country it's worth their while.
    Starmer's majority may be 'built on sand' but it will last five years and that is enough time to turn things around. Whether he will do that is another matter.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    edited August 27
    Andy_JS said:

    RealClearPolitics still has Trump ahead in Pennsylvania by 0.2%.

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris

    They seem to ignore polls that indicate otherwise and, of course, they use Rasmussen. 538 has Harris 1.6% ahead in Pennsylvania: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/pennsylvania/. On their average she has had a small but consistent lead in the State for a month.

    I still worry that Harris might regret not choosing Shapiro. Pennsylvania is the keystone state for this election. If Harris wins it, she wins. If she loses it it is going to be incredibly close.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    How quaint...

    @oasis

    The guns have fallen silent.
    The stars have aligned.
    The great wait is over.
    Come see.
    It will not be televised.

    https://x.com/oasis/status/1828341740572479734


    No

    It will be livestreamed on TikTok and Instagram for hundreds of thousands of people to watch instead...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,135
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:
    The corporate tax rate change requires only allowing the Trump tax cut (the single most expensive tax bill in history) to expire.

    Effective tax rates before and after the Trump tax law:

    Verizon
    Before: 21%
    After: 8%

    Walmart
    Before: 31%
    After: 17%

    AT&T
    Before: 13%
    After: 3%

    Walt Disney
    Before: 26%
    After: 8%

    FedEx
    Before: 18%
    After: 1%

    https://x.com/RBReich/status/1828152959563149683
    If Harris wins the US would have a corporation tax rate at 28%, even higher than ours at 25% and the OECD average rate of 23%
    So, it would have a corporate income tax level very slightly higher than average.

    Is there any evidence, beyond a few tax havens, that reducing corporation tax below (say) 20% actually benefits jobs and growth?
    There is plenty of evidence that it does tend to benefit the growth of the finances of the political party in charge.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,867
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that as people start to pay attention the economic record of Biden will stand Harris in good stead. Unemployment has fallen from 6.4% to 3.9%. Under Trump it increased from 4.7% to 6.4%. USA has been the fastest growing economy in the G7 for the last 2 years. Real wages are now growing rapidly. The US is doing very well.

    So, why so many think otherwise? I think that they have been fed a diet of relentless gloom by the lies of Fox and, increasingly, CNN who have been very critical of Biden. They have not liked the fact that taxes on the better paid have increased as the Trump tax cuts faded out. They are also (rightly) somewhat concerned with the deficit, although curiously that didn't worry them so much under Trump.

    As people look more at the figures some are coming to the view that the gloom has been overdone. Biden has pushed investment in both infrastructure (driven by Buttigieg) and encouraging domestic production, principally in chip manufacturing. Despite all the anxiety about ecological matters the US has become the largest oil producer in the world. None of the sort of nonsense we are seeing in the North Sea here. Their economy is in a better state than most looking forward.

    Trump still tends to lead on the economy but his lead has fallen sharply. He prefers to focus on immigration, crime and a smorgasbord of cultural issues. He is probably right to do so.

    So far as Trump's enduring appeal on economics, I think you also have to bear in mind three other factors:

    1) The Republicans have always had a reputation for being economic managers and despite Trump's best efforts he is probably still benefiting from that subconscious bias among voters, regardless of the evidence. Bit like the Tories over here.

    2) Trump's reputation as a "very brilliant" businessman bolstered by his reality career on The Apprentice. It's obviously all smoke and mirrors but the impression persists particularly among "low information" voters who are impressed by golden escalators and glamour models.

    3) The self-interested support of the likes of Musk do give him some credibility to be good for business.
    Although Musk’s mishandling of Twitter must cast doubt on his credentials as a businessman.
    Musk should stick to engineering.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Let’s hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    She supported Trump?

    Huge, if true.
    Huge.

    In fact ginormous.
    Is it as ginormous as his crowd size?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Let’s hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    She supported Trump?

    Huge, if true.
    I guess Welsh doesn't have indefinite articles?
    No, it doesn’t actually.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,867

    Nigelb said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    We know she's in favour of industrial strategy; support for Ukraine; encouraging states to reform planning laws for housing; pro choice; against blanket tariffs; doesn't wish to renew the Trump tax cuts for billionaires.

    And she's only a third of the way through her campaign.

    Trump's one tenths through his campaign, and has yet to outline anything coherent.

    But sure, she's Starmer 2.0.
    You seem to be conceding that being Starmer 2.0 would be a bad thing.
    He may have a landslide majority in the Commons, but the party he led received only 33.7% of the vote. The only concession is to reality - Starmer is clearly not a colossus of electoral politics.
    Eh?
    He may have a landslide majority in the Commons ..... Starmer is clearly not a colossus of electoral politics.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,003
    edited August 27
    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RealClearPolitics still has Trump ahead in Pennsylvania by 0.2%.

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris

    They seem to ignore polls that indicate otherwise and, of course, they use Rasmussen. 538 has Harris 1.6% ahead in Pennsylvania: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/pennsylvania/. On their average she has had a small but consistent lead in the State for

    I still worry that Harris might regret not choosing Shapiro. Pennsylvania is the keystone state for this election. If Harris wins it, she wins. If she loses it it is going to be incredibly close.
    She might win even without Pennsylvania if she wins Michigan and Wisconsin and Nebraska 02, which Walz will help her with and Nevada which even Hillary won and one of NC or Georgia which the black vote will help her with (and Kennedy Jr is staying on the ballot in NC unlike Pennsylvania). Obama of course won NC in 2008.

    If Trump won Arizona and Georgia and Pennsylvania as well as the states he won in 2020 though Harris wins by just 273 to 265 votes, the closest EC margin since 2000 when Bush beat Gore by 271 to 266

    https://www.270towin.com/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:
    The corporate tax rate change requires only allowing the Trump tax cut (the single most expensive tax bill in history) to expire.

    Effective tax rates before and after the Trump tax law:

    Verizon
    Before: 21%
    After: 8%

    Walmart
    Before: 31%
    After: 17%

    AT&T
    Before: 13%
    After: 3%

    Walt Disney
    Before: 26%
    After: 8%

    FedEx
    Before: 18%
    After: 1%

    https://x.com/RBReich/status/1828152959563149683
    If Harris wins the US would have a corporation tax rate at 28%, even higher than ours at 25% and the OECD average rate of 23%
    So, it would have a corporate income tax level very slightly higher than average.

    Is there any evidence, beyond a few tax havens, that reducing corporation tax below (say) 20% actually benefits jobs and growth?
    It will be interesting to see the effect of the Pillar II Global Tax Agreement - and if Congress ratifies it this time around.
  • KnightOutKnightOut Posts: 115
    stodge said:

    darkage said:

    Rory Stewart had a brilliant insight on Starmer. He suggested that he had realised people didn't want to deal with difficult questions and so the way to win an election, is by running a campaign that avoids difficult questions. What I think we see now is that, when in power, the difficult questions are unavoidable.

    That's hardly insight. It's basically what Blair did in 1997 and Cameron in 2010 (the "Big Society" anyone?).

    Stodge's Seventh Law of Politics states the truth may sometimes hurt, losing an election through being truthful always hurts.

    What did people expect? It may be Starmer has the answers - at least he's prepared to have a go unlike Sunak whose last 12 months in office were an exercise in inertia. Starmer has had to deal with the poor old battered can which has been kicked down the road so many times as to be almost inrecognisable.

    The painful truth for those of a Conservative inclination is we couldn't go on as we were - adrift. The Starmer Government will make mistakes - all Governments do - but at least they are trying to do something.

    Hard disagree. You can absolutely go on 'as you were'. It's what most governments do most of the time. And is true of most projects and programmes within most organisations.

    If you sort everything out, you can no longer work on sorting everything out. The finishing line by necessity has to be moveable. Plans needs to be overtaken by events so reality can continue indefinitely.

    As a species we are hugely dishonest about this reality, because the illusion is necessary to keep everything moving. But it's moving towards an 'end goal' that is always out of sight, and when it ever comes within range is bound to move again, because it has to.

    Maintaining a sense of purpose is more vital than comprehensively achieving goals. Things will always muddle on. Can-kicking is necessary, and criticising the can-kicking is a part of the can-kicking in the slighly bigger scheme.

    This is the real hurty truth.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,605
    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    The MSM are too busy fawning over her to give her any scrutiny.
    This MSM?


    Micro v Macro. Of course a few are critical but as has been pointed out by the likes of Michael Crick and Andrew Neil these are very much the exception.
    It's true: by far the most viewed news channel is nothing but pro-Kamala programming.

    I mean, they don't mean it to be, but whenever Jeanine Pirro comes on the screen, I feel an almost animalistic desire to vote for for Kamala Harris.
    I remember Judge Jeanine on satellite here. A saner version of Extreme Akeem and Judge Judy. I found her quite hot in the way of TSE’s stepmoms.

    I really did not spend my time well before I met my wife.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Let’s hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    She supported Trump?

    Huge, if true.
    Huge.

    In fact ginormous.
    Is it as ginormous as his crowd size?
    Hand size
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,003
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:
    The corporate tax rate change requires only allowing the Trump tax cut (the single most expensive tax bill in history) to expire.

    Effective tax rates before and after the Trump tax law:

    Verizon
    Before: 21%
    After: 8%

    Walmart
    Before: 31%
    After: 17%

    AT&T
    Before: 13%
    After: 3%

    Walt Disney
    Before: 26%
    After: 8%

    FedEx
    Before: 18%
    After: 1%

    https://x.com/RBReich/status/1828152959563149683
    If Harris wins the US would have a corporation tax rate at 28%, even higher than ours at 25% and the OECD average rate of 23%
    So, it would have a corporate income tax level very slightly higher than average.

    Is there any evidence, beyond a few tax havens, that reducing corporation tax below (say) 20% actually benefits jobs and growth?
    It worked for Ireland
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
    But you don't actually know when - if at all - he became incapable of doing his job. You threw out three and a half years ago, even though that is clearly not the case.

    The voters selected Joe Biden, knowing his age. The VP doesn't get to precipitate constitutional crises just on the basis that @Alanbrooke wants one.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
    One of the big worries with Trump - apart from the crimes, assaults, subversion of justice, violent rhetoric and total incompetence - is in the last two months he seems to have stopped having any good days.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,551
    Andy_JS said:

    RealClearPolitics still has Trump ahead in Pennsylvania by 0.2%.

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris

    Did you write " Trump ahead in Pennsylvania by 0.2%"? Desperation of desperations!

    I suspect if it were the other way around we could call it a tie. MoE and all that?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
    There's a difference between four more years, and five more months.
    And no real evidence that Biden isn't fit to hold the office for the shorter period.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
    But you don't actually know when - if at all - he became incapable of doing his job. You threw out three and a half years ago, even though that is clearly not the case.

    The voters selected Joe Biden, knowing his age. The VP doesn't get to precipitate constitutional crises just on the basis that @Alanbrooke wants one.
    Well nor do you. It could have been when he was a candidate. However on PB there have been enough questions for JBs fitness for office and the standard response for the Dem faction has been to try and kill the debate. Now it tuns out the questions were more than justified and the debayte suppressers just look tits.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    IanB2 said:

    The longest steel span in the western hemisphere, and third highest bridge in the US. Plus one of National Geographic's twenty coolest places to visit in 2024, apparently - although not today as it is super hot already and a heatwave is arriving...

    Looks a bit rusty.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
    One of the big worries with Trump - apart from the crimes, assaults, subversion of justice, violent rhetoric and total incompetence - is in the last two months he seems to have stopped having any good days.
    I rather thought you would have been delighted on the day he got shot - a good day in your books.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
    There's a difference between four more years, and five more months.
    And no real evidence that Biden isn't fit to hold the office for the shorter period.
    Yeah whatever.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,962
    .

    The markets have faith in Starmer and Reeves*.

    Pound jumps to highest level in two years

    Which is roughly just before Liz Truss shat the bed.

    *More to do with US interest rates but it is a good narrative for Starmer and Reeves.

    “Starmer better than Truss”

    Damning with faint praise…!

    Starmer is also better so far than Sunak, Johnson and May. I do accept "better than" all four recent Tory prime ministers is indeed faint praise.

    Better than Cameron? Remains to be seen.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,349
    edited August 27
    Andy_JS said:

    RealClearPolitics still has Trump ahead in Pennsylvania by 0.2%.

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris

    For some reason they are not reporting:

    Redfield 15 Aug Harris +2
    Bullfinch 11 Aug Harris +4
    Franklin 11 Aug Harris +3

    but do report Bloomberg 28 July Trump +4

    538 has Harris ahead by 1.6% in Pennsylvania

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/pennsylvania/

    BetfaIr has Harris as favourite (just) at 1.94 in Pennsylvania
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
    One of the big worries with Trump - apart from the crimes, assaults, subversion of justice, violent rhetoric and total incompetence - is in the last two months he seems to have stopped having any good days.
    I rather thought you would have been delighted on the day he got shot - a good day in your books.
    He wasn't exactly shot, was he? The assassin grazed his ear.

    To hear some of his supporters talk, you'd think he had a miraculous survival after a Nelson-style severing of the spinal column.

    It was the person behind him got shot.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
    But you don't actually know when - if at all - he became incapable of doing his job. You threw out three and a half years ago, even though that is clearly not the case.

    The voters selected Joe Biden, knowing his age. The VP doesn't get to precipitate constitutional crises just on the basis that @Alanbrooke wants one.
    Well nor do you. It could have been when he was a candidate. However on PB there have been enough questions for JBs fitness for office and the standard response for the Dem faction has been to try and kill the debate. Now it tuns out the questions were more than justified and the debayte suppressers just look tits.
    Wait: so the PB commentariat should be enough to overturn democratically elected leaders?

    The hurdle for evicting our democratically elected representatives is rightly very high.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757

    Andy_JS said:

    RealClearPolitics still has Trump ahead in Pennsylvania by 0.2%.

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris

    Did you write " Trump ahead in Pennsylvania by 0.2%"? Desperation of desperations!

    I suspect if it were the other way around we could call it a tie. MoE and all that?

    We'll have to wait for a reasonable amount of post-convention polling, but it does seem, for now at least, that Harris hasn't had the same sort of bounce in PA that she's seen in other swing states.

    One thing that's certain is that the advertising markets in state will make a LOT of money this autumn.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
    One of the big worries with Trump - apart from the crimes, assaults, subversion of justice, violent rhetoric and total incompetence - is in the last two months he seems to have stopped having any good days.
    I rather thought you would have been delighted on the day he got shot - a good day in your books.
    He wasn't exactly shot, was he? The assassin grazed his ear.

    To hear some of his supporters talk, you'd think he had a miraculous survival after a Nelson-style severing of the spinal column.

    It was the person behind him got shot.
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
    One of the big worries with Trump - apart from the crimes, assaults, subversion of justice, violent rhetoric and total incompetence - is in the last two months he seems to have stopped having any good days.
    I rather thought you would have been delighted on the day he got shot - a good day in your books.
    He wasn't exactly shot, was he? The assassin grazed his ear.

    To hear some of his supporters talk, you'd think he had a miraculous survival after a Nelson-style severing of the spinal column.

    It was the person behind him got shot.
    So what was a good day for Trump was a bad day for you.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nobody has much of a clue what Harris policies are - she's Starmer 2.0

    Her policy is not having dementia, and not having instigated an attempted coup.

    I'm not sure she needs to have much beyond that to win my support.
    She was quite happy to support a guy with dementia. Lets hope she can do riot control better than Nancy Pelosi
    How do you know she supported him? How do you know it wasn't her that put the knife in?
    Well I assume for the 3.5 years she sat happily by his side and said all was well shewas good. with it, If however you are implying she;s a backstabbing Lady Macbeth type, thats probably not going to be a good outcome for the USA.
    Oh come on, dementia is not an on-off switch, as you surely must know.

    When he was elected three and a half years ago, he was clearly able to manage the rigors of a campaign. He wasn't - I think you'll agree - demented.

    Times change, and people with cognitive decline have good days and bad days. He has rightly taken the decision to stand down.

    But what you seem to be suggesting is that the best thing for America (not the Democrats, but America), was for the VP to cause a constitutional crisis by publicly claiming the President was unable to fulfil his duties, and demanding the invocation of the 25th Amendment.

    Yeah, like that was going to happen, irrespective of which party was in power, and absent an "event".
    He was forced to stand down and if he was not up to the job the VP should have moved him out. A Prez going down the Diane Finkelstein route is not a good idea, The thing about constitutional crises is the system can deal with them.

    On the other hand since Trumpty Dumpty has similar features we can all rejoice he has more good days and be as safe as we were with Joe.
    But you don't actually know when - if at all - he became incapable of doing his job. You threw out three and a half years ago, even though that is clearly not the case.

    The voters selected Joe Biden, knowing his age. The VP doesn't get to precipitate constitutional crises just on the basis that @Alanbrooke wants one.
    Well nor do you. It could have been when he was a candidate. However on PB there have been enough questions for JBs fitness for office and the standard response for the Dem faction has been to try and kill the debate. Now it tuns out the questions were more than justified and the debayte suppressers just look tits.
    Wait: so the PB commentariat should be enough to overturn democratically elected leaders?

    The hurdle for evicting our democratically elected representatives is rightly very high.
    Yeah I can see you want to move away from whether Biden was fit for office.

    Probably a wise move.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RealClearPolitics still has Trump ahead in Pennsylvania by 0.2%.

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris

    Did you write " Trump ahead in Pennsylvania by 0.2%"? Desperation of desperations!

    I suspect if it were the other way around we could call it a tie. MoE and all that?

    We'll have to wait for a reasonable amount of post-convention polling, but it does seem, for now at least, that Harris hasn't had the same sort of bounce in PA that she's seen in other swing states.

    One thing that's certain is that the advertising markets in state will make a LOT of money this autumn.
    Vance is practically planning to live there. Whether that will help Trump or not may be a suitable subject for a discussion.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    Chortle.

    SNP ministers are being forced to consider axing some of Scotland’s “freebies” such as prescriptions and university tuition to plug a huge black hole in the public finances caused by their spending choices.

    A leaked briefing by the head of Scotland’s NHS disclosed that civil servants were drawing up options for ministers to cut, including “some of the universal benefits.”

    Caroline Lamb, chief executive of NHS Scotland and the director-general for health and social care, said her department alone had a £1.1 billion spending “gap”.

    SNP ministers attempted to blame impending spending cuts by the new Labour Government for the shortfall but their claims were demolished by the Scottish Fiscal Commission (SFC), their official economic forecasters.

    The SFC said “much of the pressure comes from the Scottish Government’s own decisions”, particularly public sector pay offers that have greatly exceeded ministers’ budgets.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/27/snp-axe-scottish-freebies-black-hole-spending/
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