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Tory members want Badenoch but will she make the final two? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,417
edited September 2024 in General
imageTory members want Badenoch but will she make the final two? – politicalbetting.com

When polled against other candidates head to head, Kemi Badenoch leads in every contestvs Cleverly: 47% – 38%vs Jenrick: 48% – 33%vs Tugendhat: 49% – 31%vs Patel: 55% – 26%vs Stride: 61% – 14%not shown are those who answered don’t know/would not vote… pic.twitter.com/HdJNpueArF

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Comments

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,204
    Well. Quite a difference from the previous polling.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    2nd like Kamala Harris.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,855
    One thing Kemi Badenoch has going for her. She's not Robert Jenrick.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733

    Wherever has the most green land can support more new homes.

    The idea of scaling by population is insane, so you want to pile new homes on top of existing ones do you?

    Building futuristic cities would be a better objective than allowing suburban sprawl all over the countryside.

    image
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,281
    edited August 2024
    An important announcement from James Esses about a new collaboration with Matt Goodwin.

    https://www.jamesesses.com/p/exciting-announcement
  • Labour and Tories blame each other for energy bill rise
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce814gz08n8o
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,878
    edited August 2024
    Yes, Badenoch remains Conservative members favourite but I can't see Tory MPs putting her in the last 2 anymore than they did in 2022. I think more likely it will be Jenrick v either Tugendhat or Cleverly which on the Yougov members' poll Jenrick would narrowly win against Tugendhat but Cleverly could win against Jenrick. Jenrick leads Tugenhat 38% to 36%


    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50368-kemi-badenoch-leads-in-first-yougov-poll-of-tory-members-for-2024-leadership-contest

    One thing we can certainly say is Stride or Patel are not going to win given their poor polling with members
  • Andy_JS said:

    An important announcement from James Esses about a new collaboration with Matt Goodwin.

    https://www.jamesesses.com/p/exciting-announcement

    Who is James Esses?
  • Andy_JS said:

    An important announcement from James Esses about a new collaboration with Matt Goodwin.

    https://www.jamesesses.com/p/exciting-announcement

    Leon's been on Substack for five minutes and already the others are scrabbling for cover.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,417
    If Badenoch isn't in the final two and Jenrick wins this then I will see you in the poorhouse @TSE !!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,417
    HYUFD said:

    Yes, Badenoch remains Conservative members favourite but I can't see Tory MPs putting her in the last 2 anymore than they did in 2022. I think more likely it will be Jenrick v either Tugendhat or Cleverly which on the Yougov members' poll Jenrick would narrowly win against Tugendhat but Cleverly could win against Jenrick.

    One thing we can certainly say is Stride or Patel are not going to win given their poor polling with members

    Do they drop out in exchange for some goodies?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,480
    Sandpit said:

    2nd like Kamala Harris.

    "This fall Donald Trump will finally know what it's like when you get left for a younger woman."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,878
    FF43 said:

    One thing Kemi Badenoch has going for her. She's not Robert Jenrick.

    Jenrick has a better net approval rating with the public than Badenoch on -1% to her -8%

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/james-cleverly-tops-list-who-would-make-good-tory-leader-3-in-5-say-they-dont-care

  • You may be interested in this interactive map: https://www.planning.data.gov.uk/map/?dataset=ancient-woodland&dataset=area-of-outstanding-natural-beauty&dataset=conservation-area&dataset=flood-risk-zone&dataset=green-belt&dataset=local-authority-district&dataset=site-of-special-scientific-interest#51.65277149291191,-1.3717119710836414,10.298518591478354z

    I've set it to AONB, Green Belt, Flood zone, Ancient Woodland, SSI as these tend to squeeze out development.

    Safeguarded land isn't readily available, but off the top of my head, about two thirds of my ward by area is safeguarded by Thames Water for their megareservoir proposal, and there's safeguarded land south of Abingdon for a proposed bypass that never seems to be coming.

    The Local Plan (which contains those safeguardings) is here: https://www.whitehorsedc.gov.uk/vale-of-white-horse-district-council/planning-and-development/local-plan-and-planning-policies/local-plan-2031/

    Have fun.
    Had a play with the map. I'll grant you AONB, Ancient Woodland and SSI. Flood risk is questionable - risk means actions need to be taken to minimise risk, it doesn't mean zero potential, but even left that on against my better judgment.

    Green Belt should be abolished entirely. It should not exist at all. If we are to encourage more sprawl so we can have more developments for people to live in, as I think we should, then the Green Belt just gets in the way of that for no justifiable reason.

    Playing with the map, I can see whole swathes of undeveloped land in Vale, which are ripe for potential development, that are not in AONB or Woodland etc.

    If you're going to build entire new towns, or large sprawling developments, then placing them in places like Vale where there is open land available to be developed is better than placing them on top of pre-existing buildings in places like Birmingham that have already been developed.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,298
    edited August 2024

    Building futuristic cities would be a better objective than allowing suburban sprawl all over the countryside.

    image
    If people want that, then great, and they will choose that. But if people want a house and garden of their own then why should we force people high into slums with no open spaces and no private gardens of their own?

    Sprawling into the countryside is far superior, it means everyone can have a house of their own, with a garden of their own.

    Remarkable how many people propose this who live in a house with a garden themselves. Really mean they want plebs to be in cities and not spoiling their view.
  • HYUFD said:

    Yes, Badenoch remains Conservative members favourite but I can't see Tory MPs putting her in the last 2 anymore than they did in 2022. I think more likely it will be Jenrick v either Tugendhat or Cleverly which on the Yougov members' poll Jenrick would narrowly win against Tugendhat but Cleverly could win against Jenrick. Jenrick leads Tugenhat 38% to 36%


    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50368-kemi-badenoch-leads-in-first-yougov-poll-of-tory-members-for-2024-leadership-contest

    One thing we can certainly say is Stride or Patel are not going to win given their poor polling with members

    If you take the 2022 final order and cross out those who are tragically unavailable, Badenoch is top of the list. What might do for her is the perception that she's just too awful a person, even to be leader of the opposition.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    FF43 said:

    One thing Kemi Badenoch has going for her. She's not Robert Jenrick.

    JENRICK
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Andy_JS said:

    An important announcement from James Esses about a new collaboration with Matt Goodwin.

    https://www.jamesesses.com/p/exciting-announcement

    I reckon you are the chief Goodwinner on PB. Something like 70% of all Goodwins can be laid at your door Andy.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    Who is James Esses?
    Who cares?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,050
    ...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733

    JENRICK
    Jenrick's policies in full:

    - Ozempic for all
    - New National Chivvying Service to get everyone out of bed at 6am for their morning exercise
    - Fines for Fatties - on the spot penalties for being out in public while overweight
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,540
    edited August 2024
    I'm going to FPT this, as I think it is important though quite niche. And even quite on-topic :smile: .
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting though on the politics front that Richard Tice, Farage's Deputy and now a Reform party MP and before a wealthy businessman and CEO of CLS Holdings attended the same Iwerne muscular Christian camps Welby did led by John Smyth QC, now with abuse allegations made against Smyth.

    As well as funding HTB with millions, Sir Paul Marshall also has given millions to GB News and helped fund Gove's leadership bid.
    He was also once an Orange Book LD before defecting to the Tories due to backing Brexit

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ideas/media/65415/the-marshall-plan-paul-marshall-gb-news
    Yes - agree that there is much that of interest.

    One of the things that I find interesting is how many try to use Archbishop Welby as a blank slate / straw man to use in their politics as a fake-up icon of things they oppose.

    On one end Andrew Graystone who wrote that piece is trying to in a way paint him as a Muscular Evangelical something something taking over the Church of England for the HTB tendency - HTB being defined as the heart of CofE evangelicalism (it isn't, and CofE evangelicalism is far more complex).

    If you look at the National Conservative types (Truss, Braverman, Rees-Mogg possibly shading into Tice, Bridgen, Carl Benjamin type rhetoric) they attempt to portray Welby as representing liberal toleration of gay marriage and 'transgenderism' being imported wholesale into the CofE. Those are themes also being deployed by the near-edge of the far tight, shading into Tommy Robinson's "Patriotic Christian" allies / useful idiots.

    (There I'm using Tommy Robinson as my own icon.)

    Both of those positions are caricatures of where Welby stands, one trying to link him to a harder edged conservative evangelical tradition that is more accurately defined by Reform (evangelical movement not political party) movement linked to Rev David Holloway / Evangelical Times or even James Anderton (the Manchester anti-gay policeman) type emphases, the other trying to make him a liberal icon.

    Reality is much more subtle, as I am sure we agree.

    One of my concerns is UK Natcons adopting more simplistic / dogmatic ideas from some US Evangelical traditions. Neither UK conservatives or the UK itself will swallow that except at the margins. There imo lies a wrecked future if the Conservative Party goes in that direction.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,878
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Truss was 'unambigiously pro growth' but it led to disaster as she pushed through massive tax cuts while keeping spending high but her heavy demand and growth increasing policies just led to high inflation and interest rates as debt rose and there was no accompanying supply side productivity increases.

    In 2016 the Tory PM of the time David Cameron led the Remain campaign but it was 52% of British voters who voted for Brexit, then they gave Boris a landslide majority to deliver it in 2019.

    Even now the majority of Tory voters still back staying outside the EU and EEA and even most voters overall would reject rejoin if it required the Euro for instance
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,878

    Who is James Esses?
    Joey Essex's long lost, more brainy brother?
  • Tim_in_RuislipTim_in_Ruislip Posts: 439
    edited August 2024

    Jenrick's policies in full:

    - Ozempic for all
    - New National Chivvying Service to get everyone out of bed at 6am for their morning exercise
    - Fines for Fatties - on the spot penalties for being out in public while overweight
    (a) Who would be your pick?
    and
    (b) Who d'y'recon gets the gig?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,878
    edited August 2024

    If you take the 2022 final order and cross out those who are tragically unavailable, Badenoch is top of the list. What might do for her is the perception that she's just too awful a person, even to be leader of the opposition.
    Currently 10 Tory MPs openly back Jenrick, Badenoch is tied for second with Tugendhat on 6 each

    https://conservativehome.com/2024/08/21/next-tory-leader-which-mp-is-backing-whom-cleverly-surges-ahead-to-two-supporters/
  • The Conservative Party is still allowing members to pick a leader?

    Hmmm....they don't exactly have a great track record.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,087

    If people want that, then great, and they will choose that. But if people want a house and garden of their own then why should we force people high into slums with no open spaces and no private gardens of their own?

    Sprawling into the countryside is far superior, it means everyone can have a house of their own, with a garden of their own.

    Remarkable how many people propose this who live in a house with a garden themselves. Really mean they want plebs to be in cities and not spoiling their view.
    If you compare the cost of a one-bed tenement in Edinburgh with a detached house in Bathgate, it's clear what people want.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,480
    If @TheScreamingEagles wants an alternative for his favourite Farage pic, I offer this, from Trump's Arizona visit yesterday.
    https://x.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1826817115526951416
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733

    (a) Who would be your pick?
    and
    (b) Who d'y'recon gets the gig?
    Not sure but not Cleverly, Tugendhat or Stride.

    Badenoch will probably win.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,878
    edited August 2024

    The Conservative Party is still allowing members to pick a leader?

    Hmmm....they don't exactly have a great track record.

    Conservative members voted for Cameron in 2005 and Johnson in 2019, the only Conservative leaders this century to win a GE majority.

  • Eabhal said:

    If you compare the cost of a one-bed tenement in Edinburgh with a detached house in Bathgate, it's clear what people want.
    Not really, that's just comparing Edinburgh with Bathgate.

    Comparing like for like, its clear that everywhere people prefer detached houses over semis, semis over terraces, and terraces over flats. That's consistent everywhere.

    Let people build what they want and let them choose. If they choose flats then great and if they choose homes then great, let them have what they want.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,690
    HYUFD said:

    Conservative members voted for Cameron in 2005 and Johnson in 2019, the only Conservative leaders this century to win a GE majority.

    But they also voted for Truss, while Labour members voted for Jeremy Corbyn...

    The prosecution rests their case
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733

    Not really, that's just comparing Edinburgh with Bathgate.

    Comparing like for like, its clear that everywhere people prefer detached houses over semis, semis over terraces, and terraces over flats. That's consistent everywhere.

    Let people build what they want and let them choose. If they choose flats then great and if they choose homes then great, let them have what they want.
    And people prefer mansions with 10 acres of land over detached houses, but not everyone can have one. Your problem is that you don't recognise the reality of scarcity.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,298
    edited August 2024

    And people prefer mansions with 10 acres of land over detached houses, but not everyone can have one. Your problem is that you don't recognise the reality of scarcity.
    I recognise the reality of scarcity and have a solution to it.

    Abolish planning consent and allow people to build what they want wherever they want it.

    See how long scarcity lasts then.

    If 20 million mansions get built, then everyone can live in a mansion and the housing crisis is over.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,087
    edited August 2024

    Not really, that's just comparing Edinburgh with Bathgate.

    Comparing like for like, its clear that everywhere people prefer detached houses over semis, semis over terraces, and terraces over flats. That's consistent everywhere.

    Let people build what they want and let them choose. If they choose flats then great and if they choose homes then great, let them have what they want.
    I would like a mansion personally.

    Please cater for me too.
  • Eabhal said:

    I would like a mansion personally.

    Please cater for me too.
    Good.

    You should be able to build a mansion wherever you want in my eyes, so long as its your land.

    If that's what you want, then what's stopping you?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733

    I recognise the reality of scarcity and have a solution to it.

    Abolish planning consent and allow people to build what they want wherever they want it.

    See how long scarcity lasts then.

    If 20 million mansions get built, then everyone can live in a mansion and the housing crisis is over.
    20 million mansions with 10 acres each is 200 million acres. Do you see the problem?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,115

    I recognise the reality of scarcity and have a solution to it.

    Abolish planning consent and allow people to build what they want wherever they want it.

    See how long scarcity lasts then.

    If 20 million mansions get built, then everyone can live in a mansion and the housing crisis is over.
    And how on earth do we plan for sewage, water, reservoirs, roads, mains electricity, school places, GP surgeries etc etc on that basis? Planning is not just about the use of the individual plot, its not even mainly about that. We simply cannot have people randomly adding to the demand on essential services without some form of control.
  • 20 million mansions with 10 acres each is 200 million acres. Do you see the problem?
    Yes, the problem is you were being absurd with the 10 acres each suggestion.

    You can easily fit five detached houses within an acre. 20 million of those would take 4 million acres then, which the UK easily has available undeveloped.

    So no, absence of land to build on is not our problem. Everyone could live in a detached house, no problem. Let alone a semi-detached house.
  • Not really, that's just comparing Edinburgh with Bathgate.

    Comparing like for like, its clear that everywhere people prefer detached houses over semis, semis over terraces, and terraces over flats. That's consistent everywhere.

    Let people build what they want and let them choose. If they choose flats then great and if they choose homes then great, let them have what they want.
    What people want is a big house with a big garden with all the amenities of a big city within walking distance. After all, there are houses like that, and they are bonkers expensive.

    But we can't all live like that; too many big gardens and the amenities stop being within walking distance. Even if you liberalise planning, you can't change geometry. So we have to make tradeoffs. Looking at prices, most people prefer a smaller gaff with life they don't have to drive to to something bigger and remoter.

    Keep building the second for those who really want it, sure, but choice points to building more urbia than suburbia. The downside is that it needs more thought and (trigger alert) planning to make it work.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733

    Yes, the problem is you were being absurd with the 10 acres each suggestion.

    You can easily fit five detached houses within an acre. 20 million of those would take 4 million acres then, which the UK easily has available undeveloped.

    So no, absence of land to build on is not our problem. Everyone could live in a detached house, no problem. Let alone a semi-detached house.
    But people prefer more land. If you had a choice of an estate of 5 acres or 10 acres, you'd want the 10 acres, wouldn't you?
  • DavidL said:

    And how on earth do we plan for sewage, water, reservoirs, roads, mains electricity, school places, GP surgeries etc etc on that basis? Planning is not just about the use of the individual plot, its not even mainly about that. We simply cannot have people randomly adding to the demand on essential services without some form of control.
    We don't, we adapt and react and people pay for their own connections as required.

    Just as if people have kids in a house that was previously owned by pensioners, or if a house that was owned by people with kids is sixty years later still owned by the same family who now don't have kids but do need care instead, then we need to adapt to those changes too.
  • But people prefer more land. If you had a choice of an estate of 5 acres or 10 acres, you'd want the 10 acres, wouldn't you?
    I'm not proposing people get the land for free, I'm proposing they can do what they want with their own land and that people can buy and sell land to do with what the prospective new owner wants to do with it.

    If someone owns land and wants to sell it to someone who wants to build houses on it, why should that not be allowed?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,087

    But people prefer more land. If you had a choice of an estate of 5 acres or 10 acres, you'd want the 10 acres, wouldn't you?
    Have you tried to mow 10 acres of land?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,087

    Good.

    You should be able to build a mansion wherever you want in my eyes, so long as its your land.

    If that's what you want, then what's stopping you?
    All the other selfish arseholes trying to build their own mansions
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,540
    edited August 2024
    For my today's photo quota, I'm very tempted by Farage Black Shorts, but I'll go for another Accidental Renaissance Painting.

    The Morning After The Night Before. Beautiful natural side-lighting.


    The decor is a good example of Modern Hipster style which is on-trend in student houses.
  • Eabhal said:

    All the other selfish arseholes trying to build their own mansions
    No that's not a problem, there's plenty of land out there that's not been developed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,480

    Yes, the problem is you were being absurd with the 10 acres each suggestion...
    Yes but it's essentially a reductio of your argument.
    The simple amount of land available in the UK isn't, of course, the only practical constraint on housebuilding.
  • Tim_in_RuislipTim_in_Ruislip Posts: 439
    edited August 2024

    Not sure but not Cleverly, Tugendhat or Stride.

    Badenoch will probably win.
    Thanks.

    I think the situation is still somewhat existential for the party, but the odds of fading into electoral irrelevance are lower than they were, not all that long ago.

    That's probably a good thing for the country and our politics.

    Could be a long road back to power, though.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,417

    Who is James Esses?
    No idea but I'd wager he is obsessed with some kind of mythical elite who are flooding the country with migrants whilst spending every evening at n london dinner parties waxing over the joys of migrant labour and multi-cultural cooking.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,394

    Have you tried to mow 10 acres of land?
    Why would I mow it when the gov will pay me to plant trees on it?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,087

    No that's not a problem, there's plenty of land out there that's not been developed.
    You're not really interested in housing people at all. For you it's all about how much of the countryside you can cover in concrete.
  • Nigelb said:

    Yes but it's essentially a reductio of your argument.
    The simple amount of land available in the UK isn't, of course, the only practical constraint on housebuilding.
    Its not a constraint at all.

    Prior to the awful introduction of the planning act in the UK land was worth a meagre 2% of the cost of a house.

    Today land is typically worth 33% of the cost of houses.

    That's not because land is magically higher demand now, its because of planning.

    Land without consent that gains it can see 100x increase in its value. Again not due to the land actually being worth more or greater or lesser supply, all artificial due to the planning system.

    Deregulation would solve the problems here.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,540
    edited August 2024

    But people prefer more land. If you had a choice of an estate of 5 acres or 10 acres, you'd want the 10 acres, wouldn't you?
    Have you tried to mow 10 acres of land?
    ----------------- Quotes buggered.
    I'd do something sheepish, then have a lamb sandwich.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733

    I'm not proposing people get the land for free, I'm proposing they can do what they want with their own land and that people can buy and sell land to do with what the prospective new owner wants to do with it.

    If someone owns land and wants to sell it to someone who wants to build houses on it, why should that not be allowed?
    So you would be in favour of a consortium of people against development buying up 90% of the land and letting people who want housing to make do with the rest?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,281
    Is it true that if you invest in gold sovereigns you don't have to pay capital gains tax?
  • Eabhal said:

    You're not really interested in housing people at all. For you it's all about how much of the countryside you can cover in concrete.
    I couldn't care less how much of the countryside gets covered in concrete.

    I want everyone to be able to have a house of their own. Not a shitty flat.

    Countryside is a secondary concern. Its a place that houses could be built on, that haven't been.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,690

    Have you tried to mow 10 acres of land?
    Fleet of 5 robotic mowers and you won't have a problem...
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,298
    edited August 2024

    So you would be in favour of a consortium of people against development buying up 90% of the land and letting people who want housing to make do with the rest?
    If they want to pay for the land and pay the taxes on the land (I equally think we should income less and tax land more and tax it based on its undeveloped value so those holding undeveloped land pay the same as those holding developed land) then that's their choice. Free market.

    Voting to tell other people they can't build on their land, that I do not support.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733

    I couldn't care less how much of the countryside gets covered in concrete.

    I want everyone to be able to have a house of their own. Not a shitty flat.

    Countryside is a secondary concern. Its a place that houses could be built on, that haven't been.
    There is a total contradiction between your aesthetic dislike of "shitty flats" and your advocacy of indefinite population growth.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,115

    We don't, we adapt and react and people pay for their own connections as required.

    Just as if people have kids in a house that was previously owned by pensioners, or if a house that was owned by people with kids is sixty years later still owned by the same family who now don't have kids but do need care instead, then we need to adapt to those changes too.
    It really honestly doesn't work that way. The first stage is a structural plan. That plan forecasts demand for an area depending on likely development and growth. It then considers the likes of sewage in a location. If the existing sewage plants don't have sufficient capacity, and they often don't, then a decision has to be made as to whether or not to increase that provision. This will involve the spending of tens of millions. Those that gain from that additional provision may be asked to pay some of that back as a condition of any consent.

    Once you move from the structural plan you can move to a more detailed plan. That helps determine where in the area the additional housing supply is best placed for reasons of the existing roads, schools, etc. If I owned 10 acres and built 30 houses on it I may cause serious logjams in the local roads or a very difficult to deal with surge in membership of the local primary school.

    These are the issues that cause planning delay. And we simply cannot operate a society without them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,480

    Its not a constraint at all.

    Prior to the awful introduction of the planning act in the UK land was worth a meagre 2% of the cost of a house.
    And nothing else has changed since 1947 ?

    I'm sorry, but the onus is on you to demonstrate the practicality of your libertarian utopia, which almost no one else is advocating. A few rhetorical points aren't going to do it.
  • There is a total contradiction between your aesthetic dislike of "shitty flats" and your advocacy of indefinite population growth.
    Not really since we have the entire population in less than 5% of England's land and over 80% of people live in houses, not flats.

    Everyone could afford a house and we could quite literally double our population and we still wouldn't have covered most of the countryside with housing.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,450

    But people prefer more land. If you had a choice of an estate of 5 acres or 10 acres, you'd want the 10 acres, wouldn't you?
    I like a house with a big garden, but I suspect most people don't, these days.
  • Nigelb said:

    And nothing else has changed since 1947 ?

    I'm sorry, but the onus is on you to demonstrate the practicality of your libertarian utopia, which almost no one else is advocating. A few rhetorical points aren't going to do it.
    Its been done elsewhere and works.

    https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,298
    I see PB is still in the middle of this circuitous discussion on housing.

    It must now surely have replaced cash (or the lack thereof) as the perennial debate on here…
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733

    Not really since we have the entire population in less than 5% of England's land and over 80% of people live in houses, not flats.

    Everyone could afford a house and we could quite literally double our population and we still wouldn't have covered most of the countryside with housing.
    How big would London be if everyone lived in a house?
  • HYUFD said:

    Conservative members voted for Cameron in 2005 and Johnson in 2019, the only Conservative leaders this century to win a GE majority.

    So by that very narrow criterion it's a fifty percent success rate.

    Is that a pass mark?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,214
    HYUFD said:

    Truss was 'unambigiously pro growth' but it led to disaster as she pushed through massive tax cuts while keeping spending high but her heavy demand and growth increasing policies just led to high inflation and interest rates as debt rose and there was no accompanying supply side productivity increases.

    In 2016 the Tory PM of the time David Cameron led the Remain campaign but it was 52% of British voters who voted for Brexit, then they gave Boris a landslide majority to deliver it in 2019.

    Even now the majority of Tory voters still back staying outside the EU and EEA and even most voters overall would reject rejoin if it required the Euro for instance
    Indeed the author should really have pointed out that the PM unambiguously pro growth is not sufficient on its own. They should also be both sane and competent enough to last longer than a lettuce. Please bear this in mind for the Tory leadership election.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733

    Its been done elsewhere and works.

    https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60
    Japan also has a declining population. What works there would have different effects here when combined with mass immigration.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,480
    An interesting analysis.

    Terms used in Harris speech:

    America, American, Americans: 34 times.
    Country or nation: ~ 20 times.
    Democrats or Democratic Party: 0 times.

    Freedom: 12 times.
    Family or families: 8 times.
    Opportunity: 6 times.
    Race or gender: Once ("regardless of party, race, or gender").

    https://x.com/BillKristol/status/1826950713622036770
  • How big would London be if everyone lived in a house?
    What difference does that make?

    There's plenty of land in the South East that those who want a house could sprawl into.

    And I never advocated that we should only have houses, merely that everyone who wants one should be able to build one.

    People who prefer a flat in a city centre should have that choice too.

    I'm pro-choice.
  • Japan also has a declining population. What works there would have different effects here when combined with mass immigration.
    Tokyo does not have a declining population.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733
    Nigelb said:

    An interesting analysis.

    Terms used in Harris speech:

    America, American, Americans: 34 times.
    Country or nation: ~ 20 times.
    Democrats or Democratic Party: 0 times.

    Freedom: 12 times.
    Family or families: 8 times.
    Opportunity: 6 times.
    Race or gender: Once ("regardless of party, race, or gender").

    https://x.com/BillKristol/status/1826950713622036770

    She's copying the Starmer strategy of going big on nationalist symbolism and rhetoric.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,214
    Sean_F said:

    I like a house with a big garden, but I suspect most people don't, these days.
    Whats my remaining budget like for gardeners?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,281
    Well I made a big mistake in deciding to go to watch the cricket tomorrow instead of today. Looks like tomorrow is now more likely to be washed out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,878

    Not really since we have the entire population in less than 5% of England's land and over 80% of people live in houses, not flats.

    Everyone could afford a house and we could quite literally double our population and we still wouldn't have covered most of the countryside with housing.
    We don't want a concrete jungle either, new homes should be focused on brownbelt land and high rise first if possible
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045

    I see PB is still in the middle of this circuitous discussion on housing.

    It must now surely have replaced cash (or the lack thereof) as the perennial debate on here…

    I'm quite disappointed that no-one bothered engaging with my five solution elements (least of all Barty).
    Given that I am, after all, on a planning committee and have been very active in development, Local Plan creation, and engaging with the issues actually coming up with development and infrastructure, I might be expected to have had some thoughts of use on it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,152
    Andy_JS said:

    Is it true that if you invest in gold sovereigns you don't have to pay capital gains tax?

    (opens Microsoft Edge browser, clicks on Copilot symbol)

    You
    Hello Copilot. Is it true that if you purchase British gold sovereigns you don't have to pay capital gains tax when you sell them?

    Copilot
    Yes, that’s correct! British gold sovereigns, along with other bullion coins produced by The Royal Mint such as Britannia coins, are exempt from Capital Gains Tax (CGT) in the UK. This is because they are considered legal tender123. This makes them a popular choice for investors looking to avoid CGT on their gold investments.

    Are you considering investing in gold sovereigns?

    1 https://www.royalmint.com/invest/discover/invest-in-gold/all-that-investors-need-to-know-about-gold-and-tax/
    2 https://cheshiregoldxchange.co.uk/gold/do-you-pay-tax-when-selling-gold-in-the-uk-2024-25-capital-gains-tax
    3 https://www.gold.co.uk/info/capital-gains-tax/
    4 https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/info/how-to-buy-gold/paying-capital-gains-tax-on-gold/
    5 https://www.royalmint.com/gold-price/capital-gains-tax-on-investments/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,878
    edited August 2024
    DavidL said:

    And how on earth do we plan for sewage, water, reservoirs, roads, mains electricity, school places, GP surgeries etc etc on that basis? Planning is not just about the use of the individual plot, its not even mainly about that. We simply cannot have people randomly adding to the demand on essential services without some form of control.
    Bart's policy seems to be build all over the greenbelt but with no guaranteed infrastructure with it and no reduction in immigration either, which would make Rishi 2024 or Clegg 2015 or Brown 2029's policies look insanely popular!
  • HYUFD said:

    We don't want a concrete jungle either, new homes should be focused on brownbelt land and high rise first if possible
    Shitty high rise flats is a concrete jungle.

    Suburban spawl of pleasant [semi-]detached houses with gardens is the precise opposite of a concrete jungle.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,953

    They already tried this in the capital of Ireland and the city just kept Dublin.
    The problem with all these cowboy builders is that they never build towns that are big enough for the both of us.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,115
    Nigelb said:

    An interesting analysis.

    Terms used in Harris speech:

    America, American, Americans: 34 times.
    Country or nation: ~ 20 times.
    Democrats or Democratic Party: 0 times.

    Freedom: 12 times.
    Family or families: 8 times.
    Opportunity: 6 times.
    Race or gender: Once ("regardless of party, race, or gender").

    https://x.com/BillKristol/status/1826950713622036770

    Her speech, in my opinion, bordered on the banal. Sweeping generalities about what she hopes to achieve, no specifics at all about how that might be done. It was perhaps sufficient for the occasion but this lack of detail is becoming troubling. It helps, a lot, that her opponent is a mad, old, corrupt, sociopath with a predilection for law breaking, indeed it might even be enough. But the lack of clarity about her objectives or her means as President is going to make actual progress difficult.
  • I'm quite disappointed that no-one bothered engaging with my five solution elements (least of all Barty).
    Given that I am, after all, on a planning committee and have been very active in development, Local Plan creation, and engaging with the issues actually coming up with development and infrastructure, I might be expected to have had some thoughts of use on it.
    I did engage with it.

    I said I support the idea of building out infrastructure in advance of building houses as one element of boosting construction, but that it should not be a barrier to allowing people to build whatever they want elsewhere because the problem is that NIMBY politicians won't build enough infrastructure.

    You have been active but you've been actively wanting nothing like the amount of construction I support and you reacted with utter horror at the suggestion there should be considerably more houses in your area than you wanted. Which is classic NIMBYism.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,152
    Andy_JS said:

    An important announcement from James Esses about a new collaboration with Matt Goodwin.

    https://www.jamesesses.com/p/exciting-announcement

    I'm not quite sure what the synergy is here. Esses gets a reputation for being being anti-immigrant and Goodwin gets a reputation for being gender-critical? Although it does have a whiff of the Dark Avengers...he's putting together a team :open_mouth:
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,231

    I see PB is still in the middle of this circuitous discussion on housing.

    Are you suggesting the argument is just going round the houses?

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,733
    edited August 2024

    I did engage with it.

    I said I support the idea of building out infrastructure in advance of building houses as one element of boosting construction, but that it should not be a barrier to allowing people to build whatever they want elsewhere because the problem is that NIMBY politicians won't build enough infrastructure.

    You have been active but you've been actively wanting nothing like the amount of construction I support and you reacted with utter horror at the suggestion there should be considerably more houses in your area than you wanted. Which is classic NIMBYism.
    You've expressed horror about having considerably more housing in a given area than you want. You call it "piling them on top", "shitty flats", "concrete jungles", etc. Perhaps you're the real NIMBY.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,503
    edited August 2024

    I couldn't care less how much of the countryside gets covered in concrete.

    I want everyone to be able to have a house of their own. Not a shitty flat.

    Countryside is a secondary concern. Its a place that houses could be built on, that haven't been.
    Given that about 80% of farmland is used to raise animals: grazing, barns and agricultural land used to grow crops to feed the animals, you being a carnivore shouldn't be keen to concrete over the countryside.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,878

    Shitty high rise flats is a concrete jungle.

    Suburban spawl of pleasant [semi-]detached houses with gardens is the precise opposite of a concrete jungle.
    There are some beautiful high rise flats for young people with great views over London now even in Sratford with private balconies etc. Some come with on site gyms, pools, concierges, porters etc too

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/146603273#/?channel=RES_BUY


    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/144952808#/?channel=RES_BUY
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/140947838#/?channel=RES_BUY
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,480

    I'm quite disappointed that no-one bothered engaging with my five solution elements (least of all Barty).
    Given that I am, after all, on a planning committee and have been very active in development, Local Plan creation, and engaging with the issues actually coming up with development and infrastructure, I might be expected to have had some thoughts of use on it.
    I gave it a like.
  • Tim_in_RuislipTim_in_Ruislip Posts: 439
    edited August 2024

    Thanks.

    I think the situation is still somewhat existential for the party, but the odds of fading into electoral irrelevance are lower than they were, not all that long ago.

    That's probably a good thing for the country and our politics.

    Could be a long road back to power, though.
    A fairly immediate problem the new leader/party will have is developing a by-election strategy fit for the new political context. Greens/LD's/Reform and even independents have professionalised and will fancy their chances, depending on the seat.

    I forsee an interesting challenge for Starmer, but perhaps even more of a challenge for the new tory leader - just to stay relevant.
  • You've expressed horror about having considerably more housing in a given area than you want. You call it "piling them on top", "shitty flats", "concrete jungles", etc. Perhaps you're the real NIMBY.
    Except for the fact I've said every time if people want to build or live in shitty flats, that would be their choice and I'm pro-choice and would respect their right to make that choice if that's what they want.

    What I oppose is forcing people to live in urban slums piled on top of each other when they want a house of thei own, not to live in a slum, because those who live in houses are saying no more houses near me.
  • How big would London be if everyone lived in a house?
    There are houses and houses.

    But let's suppose you wanted to house everyone in London at the density of Havering (and that's about fifty percent green belt).

    Havering is 2300 people per square km. London's population is about 9 million. So you would need about 4000 square kilometres or a radius of about 35 km. That's not much more than London already is, going East/West, though a fair bit bigger North/South. Croydon is about 15km from central London.

    TLDR: Most of London already is houses, and is pretty low density for a capital city.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,540
    Video with some analysis suggestion how Bayesian may have sunk from a 50-year career yacht designer:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFOpw5UCn8s
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,878
    HYUFD said:

    Bart's policy seems to be build all over the greenbelt but with no guaranteed infrastructure with it and no reduction in immigration either, which would make Rishi 2024 or Clegg 2015 or Brown 2029's policies look insanely popular!
    Sorry, Brown 2010
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,152
    MattW said:

    Video with some analysis suggestion how Bayesian may have sunk from a 50-year career yacht designer:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFOpw5UCn8s

    I will view that video and update my internal estimate of the probabilities accordingly. :)
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,394
    viewcode said:

    (opens Microsoft Edge browser, clicks on Copilot symbol)

    You
    Hello Copilot. Is it true that if you purchase British gold sovereigns you don't have to pay capital gains tax when you sell them?

    Copilot
    Yes, that’s correct! British gold sovereigns, along with other bullion coins produced by The Royal Mint such as Britannia coins, are exempt from Capital Gains Tax (CGT) in the UK. This is because they are considered legal tender123. This makes them a popular choice for investors looking to avoid CGT on their gold investments.

    Are you considering investing in gold sovereigns?

    1 https://www.royalmint.com/invest/discover/invest-in-gold/all-that-investors-need-to-know-about-gold-and-tax/
    2 https://cheshiregoldxchange.co.uk/gold/do-you-pay-tax-when-selling-gold-in-the-uk-2024-25-capital-gains-tax
    3 https://www.gold.co.uk/info/capital-gains-tax/
    4 https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/info/how-to-buy-gold/paying-capital-gains-tax-on-gold/
    5 https://www.royalmint.com/gold-price/capital-gains-tax-on-investments/
    Security might be an issue so it's a good job I'm going to have 10 acres of land to bury them in!
This discussion has been closed.