Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

How the Greens have changed – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,027
edited August 26 in General
How the Greens have changed – politicalbetting.com

In 2019, one in ten Green voters was from the most progressive/left segment of voters; now that’s one in four. Big difference in policy preferences, priorities and pressure on the leadership, as we’ve seen in e.g reaction to Denyer’s Biden statement.

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 977
    edited August 11
    First -Like Harris and Walz
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 977
    edited August 11
    Isn't the problem that Labour activists from the left of the Labour -some actually expelled - needed a party to play in and have adopted the Greens.

    I wonder if similarly some Liberal Democrats will miss being in a fringe party with no power or money and join the Conservatives as they drop into insignificance in council elections and at the next General Election.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,384
    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,738
    edited August 11
    FPT:
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    ANECDOTE KLAXON

    I had drinks tonight with an old lefty friend. Firmly Labour, and always has been

    He was notably reluctant to defend Starmer. He was unaware of the varied discourse over the riots, so that wasn't a fact (he thought it was just football hoons having a go). Yet, still notably dispirited. He had no idea how Labour might make things better and no confidence they will, and admitted as much

    That's quite striking, and he can be quite forceful if he really believes something. eg he was an impassioned Remainer

    There is no enthusiasm behind Starmer. even his alleged supporters don't like him. The Tories, if they are clever, can sweep this putrid government away in one term

    Shape up. Tories!

    Do we expect the next set of local elections to be a GE hangover, and therefore bad for the tories, or the first green shoots of a recovery? Overall the tories kept hold of a surprising number of council seats over their years in national governent - many more than Labour did 1997-2010 for comparison.
    I seriously believe the Tories can undo this pathetic Woke Labour government in one term. Starmer only got 33.7% on a shit turnout, this can be overturned in moments, and Starmer is a clueless nasal-voiced Woke twat like all his Cabinet, he won't fix anything, he will make most things worse

    But the Tories need a really good leader, able to harness Reform voters yet stay centre right, and unfortunately I cannot see who that is - yet
    I don't think that's necessarily true. If Labour f*ck up badly enough it won't matter much who the Conservative leader is or what they say. As you say, Starmer is a dismal politician with no judgement, vision or charisma but still trounced an exhausted, discredited government while Corbyn got within a couple of points of Theresa May. Obviously a decent leader helps, but if the government is dismal enough, people will give the opposition a shot.

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,587
    Early days, but there does need to be a voice for the formerly Corbynite left made homeless by timid yet authoritarian Starmerism.

    It isn't any easier for Labour to recover these voters than for the Tories to pick up Reform voters.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,587
    Be careful too of Green subsamples, the windfarm poll has only 141 respondents.

    Additionally note that the 2019 Green vote was distorted by an electoral pact with Lib Dems over Brexit so a lot of that 2019 vote was LD voters rather than true Greens (and vice versa of course).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,315
    Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,468

    Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
    I think though you really Pict it just to annoy certain posters...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,530
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
    I think though you really Pict it just to annoy certain posters...
    He's Scot a track record...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,468

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
    I think though you really Pict it just to annoy certain posters...
    He's Scot a track record...
    A Stirling reply.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,800
    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc
  • Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
    Whalley in Lancashire is the nearest settlement to the centre of mainland Britain

    Sheffield is slightly to the south of Whalley
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,897
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
    I think though you really Pict it just to annoy certain posters...
    We ignore his childish attempts at humour
  • malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
    I think though you really Pict it just to annoy certain posters...
    We ignore his childish attempts at humour
    Caledonia cannae condone ya
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,897
    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,941
    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,505
    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    I feel the decisison was taken for security reasons. If you look at Fukushima and Zaporiza (sp?), nuclear installations are pretty dangerous things to have. Viewed in that regard, it cannot really be seen as a policy failure yet - if the situation in Europe deteriorates (as I hope it will not) it may prove wise in the long term.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,501
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 1983, that does suggest Germany has the same earthquake/tsunami risk as Japan, which is not necessarily the case.
  • Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,558
    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    I didnt take note of who wrote the above but a sentence in and it was absolutely clear as to who had....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,315
    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    It will be fascinating where Scottish independence supporters go.

    I cannot see Alba getting much more than the 1.7% they received in 2021 so the Greens might do very well with those supporters.
  • Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    I feel the decisison was taken for security reasons. If you look at Fukushima and Zaporiza (sp?), nuclear installations are pretty dangerous things to have. Viewed in that regard, it cannot really be seen as a policy failure yet - if the situation in Europe deteriorates (as I hope it will not) it may prove wise in the long term.
    Fukushima was the final straw in Germany. At the time, Merkel was resisting strong pressure to phase out nuclear power, but she eventually crumbled after public opinion turned strongly against it after Fukushima.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,843
    The Green Party has become The Red Party.

    Environmentalists, my arse. Shame.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,843

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    I feel the decisison was taken for security reasons. If you look at Fukushima and Zaporiza (sp?), nuclear installations are pretty dangerous things to have. Viewed in that regard, it cannot really be seen as a policy failure yet - if the situation in Europe deteriorates (as I hope it will not) it may prove wise in the long term.
    Fukushima was the final straw in Germany. At the time, Merkel was resisting strong pressure to phase out nuclear power, but she eventually crumbled after public opinion turned strongly against it after Fukushima.
    But doesn't Germany still use plenty of nuclear power, just as long as it is generated in another country?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,198
    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    Surely not. Their contribution to the SNP government was so catastrophically bad that they stood out clearly even against a background of SNP incompetence. The bottle recycling scheme which has cost tens of millions, the unnecessary deaths on the A9, the absurd rent freeze that gave Edinburgh the fastest rising rents in the UK and Patrick Harvie, a man so odious that words simply fail me.
    The Scottish Greens gained considerably from the second vote for an alternative independence party but having destroyed the government of Yousaf (admittedly because of his own stupidity) I would not think that they would get the same again.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,897

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
    I get your point but our Greens are a lot worse than your average.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,897

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    It will be fascinating where Scottish independence supporters go.

    I cannot see Alba getting much more than the 1.7% they received in 2021 so the Greens might do very well with those supporters.
    Only the ones with IQ's in single digits. The greens are not Independence supporters.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,035
    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    Surely not. Their contribution to the SNP government was so catastrophically bad that they stood out clearly even against a background of SNP incompetence. The bottle recycling scheme which has cost tens of millions, the unnecessary deaths on the A9, the absurd rent freeze that gave Edinburgh the fastest rising rents in the UK and Patrick Harvie, a man so odious that words simply fail me.
    The Scottish Greens gained considerably from the second vote for an alternative independence party but having destroyed the government of Yousaf (admittedly because of his own stupidity) I would not think that they would get the same again.
    Ah, rent controls. Just about the only government policy that can be definitively proved to have failed every time it’s ever been introduced. Yet there are still politicians who like to think it can work.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,812
    edited August 11
    In England and Wales and Scotland the green parties are largely socialist, socially liberal, republican and in Scotland pro independence too so for leftwingers who backed Corbyn in 2017 and 2019 and for whom Starmer is too centrist they offer an ideal home. Especially in England.

    The LDs are also no longer an option for hard leftwingers as they were under Charles Kennedy after having been in a coalition government with the Tories
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,035

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    I feel the decisison was taken for security reasons. If you look at Fukushima and Zaporiza (sp?), nuclear installations are pretty dangerous things to have. Viewed in that regard, it cannot really be seen as a policy failure yet - if the situation in Europe deteriorates (as I hope it will not) it may prove wise in the long term.
    Fukushima was the final straw in Germany. At the time, Merkel was resisting strong pressure to phase out nuclear power, but she eventually crumbled after public opinion turned strongly against it after Fukushima.
    Which is nuts, as Germany isn’t exactly famous for earthquakes and tsunamis. Angela Merkel, with a doctorate in chemistry and an academic career as a scientist, should really have been able to explain this.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,324

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    I didnt take note of who wrote the above but a sentence in and it was absolutely clear as to who had....
    Very true. Quite a few posters are easily identifiable from their posting style: HY, Dura, Pagan, Morris, AlanBrooke, Leon of course...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,650

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    I didnt take note of who wrote the above but a sentence in and it was absolutely clear as to who had....
    Very true. Quite a few posters are easily identifiable from their posting style: HY, Dura, Pagan, Morris, AlanBrooke, Leon of course...
    Don't lump me in with those shits. (HY excepted)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,501
    Mr. Pointer, I must disagree. My own posting style is as difficult to discern as the political arrangements between Anastasius and Theoderic.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,324
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    I feel the decisison was taken for security reasons. If you look at Fukushima and Zaporiza (sp?), nuclear installations are pretty dangerous things to have. Viewed in that regard, it cannot really be seen as a policy failure yet - if the situation in Europe deteriorates (as I hope it will not) it may prove wise in the long term.
    Fukushima was the final straw in Germany. At the time, Merkel was resisting strong pressure to phase out nuclear power, but she eventually crumbled after public opinion turned strongly against it after Fukushima.
    Which is nuts, as Germany isn’t exactly famous for earthquakes and tsunamis. Angela Merkel, with a doctorate in chemistry and an academic career as a scientist, should really have been able to explain this.
    The counter argument is that quite a few scientists and engineers with doctorates etc. were no doubt involved in the design and build of Fukushima.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,097
    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    I didnt take note of who wrote the above but a sentence in and it was absolutely clear as to who had....
    Very true. Quite a few posters are easily identifiable from their posting style: HY, Dura, Pagan, Morris, AlanBrooke, Leon of course...
    Don't lump me in with those shits. (HY excepted)
    How disappointing I always feel we have an affinity of expression
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,097

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    I feel the decisison was taken for security reasons. If you look at Fukushima and Zaporiza (sp?), nuclear installations are pretty dangerous things to have. Viewed in that regard, it cannot really be seen as a policy failure yet - if the situation in Europe deteriorates (as I hope it will not) it may prove wise in the long term.
    Fukushima was the final straw in Germany. At the time, Merkel was resisting strong pressure to phase out nuclear power, but she eventually crumbled after public opinion turned strongly against it after Fukushima.
    Which is nuts, as Germany isn’t exactly famous for earthquakes and tsunamis. Angela Merkel, with a doctorate in chemistry and an academic career as a scientist, should really have been able to explain this.
    The counter argument is that quite a few scientists and engineers with doctorates etc. were no doubt involved in the design and build of Fukushima.
    Which is in Japan not Germany
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,324

    Mr. Pointer, I must disagree. My own posting style is as difficult to discern as the political arrangements between Anastasius and Theoderic.

    Your classical references are a give away but the refusal to use blockquotes is the clearest indicator.

    Did they not have blockquotes in ancient Rome?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,506

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    I didnt take note of who wrote the above but a sentence in and it was absolutely clear as to who had....
    Very true. Quite a few posters are easily identifiable from their posting style: HY, Dura, Pagan, Morris, AlanBrooke, Leon of course...
    It is quite difficult to hide, like a person's gait that allows them to be recognised from afar

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,035

    Mr. Pointer, I must disagree. My own posting style is as difficult to discern as the political arrangements between Anastasius and Theoderic.

    Your classical references are a give away but the refusal to use blockquotes is the clearest indicator.

    Did they not have blockquotes in ancient Rome?
    Mr Dancer once replied to one of my posts, and I took a screenshot of it because it happens so rarely!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,750

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    I feel the decisison was taken for security reasons. If you look at Fukushima and Zaporiza (sp?), nuclear installations are pretty dangerous things to have. Viewed in that regard, it cannot really be seen as a policy failure yet - if the situation in Europe deteriorates (as I hope it will not) it may prove wise in the long term.
    Germany does not face tsunami risk

    And it has not been invaded by Russia recently
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,506
    John Burn-Murdoch is surely the king of the telling graph, and his analysis of the watermelon party spot on
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,750

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    Are you sure (I haven’t checked recently) but part of the issue was Germany switched to lignite (“dirty”) coal
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    I feel the decisison was taken for security reasons. If you look at Fukushima and Zaporiza (sp?), nuclear installations are pretty dangerous things to have. Viewed in that regard, it cannot really be seen as a policy failure yet - if the situation in Europe deteriorates (as I hope it will not) it may prove wise in the long term.
    Fukushima was the final straw in Germany. At the time, Merkel was resisting strong pressure to phase out nuclear power, but she eventually crumbled after public opinion turned strongly against it after Fukushima.
    Which is nuts, as Germany isn’t exactly famous for earthquakes and tsunamis. Angela Merkel, with a doctorate in chemistry and an academic career as a scientist, should really have been able to explain this.
    The problem is that electorates are notoriously resistant to rational explanation. When Fukushima happened, Merkel's government was deeply unpopular, and Merkel was simply unable to resist the pressure of public opinion. Hence her about-turn on nuclear power.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,442

    Mr. Pointer, I must disagree. My own posting style is as difficult to discern as the political arrangements between Anastasius and Theoderic.

    Your classical references are a give away but the refusal to use blockquotes is the clearest indicator.

    Did they not have blockquotes in ancient Rome?
    They did keep things short. Had to, doing their postings on bits of digital wood.

    https://minimusthemouse.blogspot.com/2020/04/virtual-vindolanda-tablet.html?m=1
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,506

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    Are you sure (I haven’t checked recently) but part of the issue was Germany switched to lignite (“dirty”) coal
    switched back

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,442
    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    Surely not. Their contribution to the SNP government was so catastrophically bad that they stood out clearly even against a background of SNP incompetence. The bottle recycling scheme which has cost tens of millions, the unnecessary deaths on the A9, the absurd rent freeze that gave Edinburgh the fastest rising rents in the UK and Patrick Harvie, a man so odious that words simply fail me.
    The Scottish Greens gained considerably from the second vote for an alternative independence party but having destroyed the government of Yousaf (admittedly because of his own stupidity) I would not think that they would get the same again.
    "fastest rising rents" - but held down for some time, no? Do be fair with your comparators.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,097

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    worth a read

    https://ejfoundation.org/resources/downloads/EJF-German-Coal-Usage-Briefing-June-2023.pdf
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,501
    Mr. Sandpit, the screenshot must be a deepfake ;)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,097

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    Are you sure (I haven’t checked recently) but part of the issue was Germany switched to lignite (“dirty”) coal
    Germany's gaslighting us on its green credentials
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,015

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    Are you sure (I haven’t checked recently) but part of the issue was Germany switched to lignite (“dirty”) coal
    I did like the elaborate arguments, by some, that Germany using lignite was greener than nuclear power.

    And that lignite was greener than LNG imports. Though not *piped* gas.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,750

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    Are you sure (I haven’t checked recently) but part of the issue was Germany switched to lignite (“dirty”) coal
    Germany's gaslighting us on its green credentials
    That’s totally unfair of you.

    The stats are as trustworthy as their diesel emissions testing
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,735

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
    Normal countries are independent.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,442

    Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
    But that would mean admitting that Kendal is the centre of Britain (which it is, more or less) and that Manchester is in the poncey south. See? Can't have it both ways.
  • On topic - I have a lot of respect for Burn-Murdoch but he is perhaps overstating things here. The Greens have always been much more left-wing than most of their voters. Since at least the early 1990s. That only seriously becomes a problem when they are in power. At the UK level that seems a way away!

    TSE is absolutely right about the fact a Lab decline will not automatically help the Cons. But then in the collapse of the Cons most didn't auto go to Lab. Those sorts of assumptions are now very outdated.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,750
    edited August 11

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
    Normal countries are independent.
    Normal countries are whatever the population wants it to be.

    In Scotland the voters decided it should remain part of the UK.
  • Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    Are you sure (I haven’t checked recently) but part of the issue was Germany switched to lignite (“dirty”) coal
    I have checked recently, and Germany's use of both anthracite and lignite has fallen since 2011, but obviously not by as much as it would have if they'd kept nuclear power.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,035

    Mr. Sandpit, the screenshot must be a deepfake ;)

    Okay, so have the link instead! ;)

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4778644/#Comment_4778644
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,015

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    I feel the decisison was taken for security reasons. If you look at Fukushima and Zaporiza (sp?), nuclear installations are pretty dangerous things to have. Viewed in that regard, it cannot really be seen as a policy failure yet - if the situation in Europe deteriorates (as I hope it will not) it may prove wise in the long term.
    Fukushima was the final straw in Germany. At the time, Merkel was resisting strong pressure to phase out nuclear power, but she eventually crumbled after public opinion turned strongly against it after Fukushima.
    Which is nuts, as Germany isn’t exactly famous for earthquakes and tsunamis. Angela Merkel, with a doctorate in chemistry and an academic career as a scientist, should really have been able to explain this.
    The problem is that electorates are notoriously resistant to rational explanation. When Fukushima happened, Merkel's government was deeply unpopular, and Merkel was simply unable to resist the pressure of public opinion. Hence her about-turn on nuclear power.
    Joking aside, much of the real issue was about power station age. Much as in France and the U.K., most nuclear power stations needed replacement.

    Shutting the existing ones down *earlier than might have been managed* was suboptimal.

    But keeping them running would have meant granting life extensions to a number. And to keep nuclear power gong would have required a commitment to and starting building new ones
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,735
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
    But that would mean admitting that Kendal is the centre of Britain (which it is, more or less) and that Manchester is in the poncey south. See? Can't have it both ways.
    Haltwhistle sells itself as being the centre of Britain, which makes @TSE a soft southerner.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,015

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    Are you sure (I haven’t checked recently) but part of the issue was Germany switched to lignite (“dirty”) coal
    Germany's gaslighting us on its green credentials
    That’s totally unfair of you.

    The stats are as trustworthy as their diesel emissions testing
    I always liked the fact that under California emissions testing laws, electric cars were initially, technically illegal.

    No exhaust pipe for a testing probe to be placed in, to check the emissions….
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,442
    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    Pity that the SSP had such a terminally difficult time. Would have made things even more interesting.

    We still have to see how far Slab can tolerate being subordinated to Starmerism, too. Probably quite far, but can it split? Probably not, but I am not clear on the mechanics and specifically what happens to list seats - precedent has been that people in a list seat who shift parties or go independent haven't been ejected, but IIRC that was perhaps because there was little point in the circumstances of the time for the deprived party to raise a fuss (near election, or much the same politically).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,442

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
    But that would mean admitting that Kendal is the centre of Britain (which it is, more or less) and that Manchester is in the poncey south. See? Can't have it both ways.
    Haltwhistle sells itself as being the centre of Britain, which makes @TSE a soft southerner.
    HAltwhistle has obviously not updated itself to consider the recent annexation of Sgeir Rocail.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,501
    Mr. Sandpit, you're clearly using some sort of false coding shenanigans.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,750

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    Are you sure (I haven’t checked recently) but part of the issue was Germany switched to lignite (“dirty”) coal
    I have checked recently, and Germany's use of both anthracite and lignite has fallen since 2011, but obviously not by as much as it would have if they'd kept
    nuclear power.
    Please post a link

    According to this report (Jan 23) hard coal/lignite accounts for 35% of German power production, more than the entire renewables industry

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/coal-germany

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,315
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
    But that would mean admitting that Kendal is the centre of Britain (which it is, more or less) and that Manchester is in the poncey south. See? Can't have it both ways.
    Many years ago I met a Scot at a wedding, we became really good friends but this was our initial conversation

    James: I cannot place your accent, where are you from?

    Me: I am a Northerner

    James: Nah, you're not from Aberdeen

    Me: No, I'm originally from Sheffield

    James: Oh so you're a Midlander because Yorkshire is in the middle of Britain
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,442

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
    Normal countries are independent.
    Normal countries are whatever the population wants it to be.

    In Scotland the voters decided it should remain part of the UK.
    In Scotland the voters decided they wanted to consider changing their mind. That was not allowed on spurious grounds (vide HYUFD postings ad nauseam).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,442

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    ‘North Britain’ - Naughty !

    It's geographically accurate.
    But that would mean admitting that Kendal is the centre of Britain (which it is, more or less) and that Manchester is in the poncey south. See? Can't have it both ways.
    Many years ago I met a Scot at a wedding, we became really good friends but this was our initial conversation

    James: I cannot place your accent, where are you from?

    Me: I am a Northerner

    James: Nah, you're not from Aberdeen

    Me: No, I'm originally from Sheffield

    James: Oh so you're a Midlander because Yorkshire is in the middle of Britain
    Quite right too. Some of us are *real* Northerners.
  • Environmental NIMBY is an oxymoron.

    Objecting to wind farms or pylons etc does worse than nothing for the environment, it makes climate change and the environment worse.
  • MuesliMuesli Posts: 195
    edited August 11
    As I’m instinctively in favour of rent controls and against nuclear power, please could someone (SKS fan or otherwise) explain, patiently, objectively, and without resorting to insults:

    - why rent controls don’t work, and
    - how nuclear power is good for the environment?

    I am asking this with an open mind.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,750
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
    Normal countries are independent.
    Normal countries are whatever the population wants it to be.

    In Scotland the voters decided it should remain part of the UK.
    In Scotland the voters decided they wanted to consider changing their mind. That was not allowed on spurious grounds (vide HYUFD postings ad nauseam).
    When did they do that?

    An election for a representative body is on a much broader range of topics than a single issue
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,530
    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    It will be fascinating where Scottish independence supporters go.

    I cannot see Alba getting much more than the 1.7% they received in 2021 so the Greens might do very well with those supporters.
    Only the ones with IQ's in single digits. The greens are not Independence supporters.
    Indeed. A double-digit IQ is a prerequisite to support the SNP.
  • Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    Are you sure (I haven’t checked recently) but part of the issue was Germany switched to lignite (“dirty”) coal
    I did like the elaborate arguments, by some, that Germany using lignite was greener than nuclear power.

    And that lignite was greener than LNG imports. Though not *piped* gas.
    Back in the day, I had a number of arguments with German Greens about the need to prioritise the replacement of fossil fuels over the closure of nuclear plants. Some agreed with me, but in the end it was politically easier to go after nuclear because of its poor public image. Sadly.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,442

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
    Normal countries are independent.
    Normal countries are whatever the population wants it to be.

    In Scotland the voters decided it should remain part of the UK.
    In Scotland the voters decided they wanted to consider changing their mind. That was not allowed on spurious grounds (vide HYUFD postings ad nauseam).
    When did they do that?

    An election for a representative body is on a much broader range of topics than a single issue
    Manifestoes for Holyrood and Westminster elections.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,750
    Muesli said:

    As I’m instinctively in favour of rent controls and against nuclear power, please could someone (SKS fan or otherwise) explain, patiently, objectively, and without resorting to insults:

    - why rent controls don’t work, and
    - how nuclear power is good for the environment?

    I am asking this with an open mind.

    For simplicity assume that rents are completely fixed.

    Each year the real value of that rental income goes down

    Consequently no one will invest in expanding / improving the housing stock so it declines in aggregate quality.

    Furthermore when owners can, they take houses out of the stock for alternative uses reducing the pool of available housing

    Additionally it reduces social mobility because moving house can trigger a rent review - this has all sorts of economic impacts
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,310
    edited August 11

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    Are you sure (I haven’t checked recently) but part of the issue was Germany switched to lignite (“dirty”) coal
    I have checked recently, and Germany's use of both anthracite and lignite has fallen since 2011, but obviously not by as much as it would have if they'd kept
    nuclear power.
    Please post a link

    According to this report (Jan 23) hard coal/lignite accounts for 35% of German power production, more than the entire renewables industry

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/coal-germany

    Our two statements are not incompatible. Yes, Germany does still produce marginally more power from coal then renewables. And yes, Germany's use of coal has fallen since 2011.

    Edit: I'm on a phone so a bit tricky to post links, but easy to see on e.g. Wikipedia.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,750
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
    Normal countries are independent.
    Normal countries are whatever the population wants it to be.

    In Scotland the voters decided it should remain part of the UK.
    In Scotland the voters decided they wanted to consider changing their mind. That was not allowed on spurious grounds (vide HYUFD postings ad nauseam).
    When did they do that?

    An election for a representative body is on a much broader range of topics than a single issue
    Manifestoes for Holyrood and Westminster elections.
    To repeat: An election for a representative body is on a much broader range of topics than a single issue

    It’s a fairly basic constitutional principle.

    Additionally the UK is a partnership - it’s not reasonable for one party to be able to perpetually destabilise the arrangement. A periodic vote is fair (to quote Alex Salmond “once in a generation”) but more frequent than that is an imposition on your partners
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,750

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been a worse policy anywhere in Europe this century, than the German decision to shut down nuclear in favour of using mostly Russian gas for electricity generation?

    Not only did it lead to a rise in carbon emissions, but also left the continent’s largest economy totally dependent on an adversary, with the inevitable gas price spike once that adversary became a little too, well, adversary.

    It wasn't a good decision, but it is renewables that have taken up the slack. Since the decision to phase out nuclear power was taken in 2011, electricity generation from gas has remained roughly constant and generation from coal has fallen, while generation from renewables has risen enormously. With nuclear, of course, use of fossil fuels could have been reduced even more.
    Are you sure (I haven’t checked recently) but part of the issue was Germany switched to lignite (“dirty”) coal
    I have checked recently, and Germany's use of both anthracite and lignite has fallen since 2011, but obviously not by as much as it would have if they'd kept
    nuclear power.
    Please post a link

    According to this report (Jan 23) hard coal/lignite accounts for 35% of German power production, more than the entire renewables industry

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/coal-germany

    Our two statements are not incompatible. Yes, Germany does still produce marginally
    more power from coal then renewables. And
    yes, Germany's use of coal has fallen since
    2011.
    But you are looking in absolute terms which is pretty meaningless given that it’s been a staple of policy to reduce power generation

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,419
    edited August 11

    Environmental NIMBY is an oxymoron.

    Objecting to wind farms or pylons etc does worse than nothing for the environment, it makes climate change and the environment worse.

    I was doing some environmental stuff yesterday.

    I spoke to someone involved in a fairly high profile landscape-scale habitat restoration project.

    They were very worried about the new governments attitude with regard to wind farms and were extremely worried about plans for a VERY large wind "farm" in their local area.

    Wind farms are not an unalloyed good if they are built on peat or upland areas with significant habitat interest.

    Indeed - they can actually contribute to climate change.

    We are just getting to a phase where peat moorlands - such as in the Pennines - are being recovered for nature after decades / centuries of decline due to industrialisation. This involves stopping the degredation of the soils (which emits vast quantities of CO2) and fast run-off of rain (which leads to flooding in places like Calderdale).

    Driving large numbers of tracks through this landscape and dumping massive concrete bases are not what is needed for peat recovery or hydrology.

    We do not need to go from one disaster to another.

    What is wrong with Dogger Bank?

    PS A number of people expressed concern about the new government and how "green" they appeared to be. None of them were obviously Tories - it was more a shrug of "I thought we might get something better but it appears not".
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,384

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    I didnt take note of who wrote the above but a sentence in and it was absolutely clear as to who had....
    Very true. Quite a few posters are easily identifiable from their posting style: HY, Dura, Pagan, Morris, AlanBrooke, Leon of course...
    Don't lump me in with those shits. (HY excepted)
    How disappointing I always feel we have an affinity of expression
    Never meet your heroes.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,384

    Muesli said:

    As I’m instinctively in favour of rent controls and against nuclear power, please could someone (SKS fan or otherwise) explain, patiently, objectively, and without resorting to insults:

    - why rent controls don’t work, and
    - how nuclear power is good for the environment?

    I am asking this with an open mind.

    For simplicity assume that rents are completely fixed.

    Each year the real value of that rental income goes down

    Consequently no one will invest in expanding / improving the housing stock so it declines in aggregate quality.

    Furthermore when owners can, they take houses out of the stock for alternative uses reducing the pool of available housing

    Additionally it reduces social mobility because moving house can trigger a rent review - this has all sorts of economic impacts
    Labours upcoming renters reform act will end up making worse situations it aims to remedy and we are already seeing many smaller landlords selling up.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,442

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
    Normal countries are independent.
    Normal countries are whatever the population wants it to be.

    In Scotland the voters decided it should remain part of the UK.
    In Scotland the voters decided they wanted to consider changing their mind. That was not allowed on spurious grounds (vide HYUFD postings ad nauseam).
    When did they do that?

    An election for a representative body is on a much broader range of topics than a single issue
    Manifestoes for Holyrood and Westminster elections.
    To repeat: An election for a representative body is on a much broader range of topics than a single issue

    It’s a fairly basic constitutional principle.

    Additionally the UK is a partnership - it’s not reasonable for one party to be able to perpetually destabilise the arrangement. A periodic vote is fair (to quote Alex Salmond “once in a generation”) but more frequent than that is an imposition on your partners
    Doesnt change the fact that the policy was in the manifestoes of the relevant parties. If that is good enough to be accepted at Westminster when it pertains to Unionist parties ...
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,013
    Not sure about Burn-Murdoch's analysis of E&W Greens, but this comment on the German Greens is unconvincing:

    "We’ve seen something very similar play out with the German Greens since entering power.

    After losing progressive young voters over support for Ukraine, and moderate voters over botched heat pump policy, they’re now polling at their lowest level in 7 years, well behind the AfD."

    At the last federal election in 2021 Germans were not in power, and the 2022 invasion of Ukraine hadn't started. Greens got 14.7%. They are now polling around 12%, so they have lost about a fifth of their support. Could this be because of heat pumps, or is it more likely that it is because they are part of an extremely unpopular coalition?

    Let's check the other governing parties:
    SPD 2021 vote 25.7% current polling about 15% so they have lost over 2 fifths.
    FDP 2021 vote 11.4% current polling about 5% so they have lost more than half.

    Yes, the AfD are ahead of the Greens in polling. This is more due to an increase in AfD support than loss in Green support. AfD 2021 vote 10.4% current polling about 17%. The AfD are also now ahead of the SPD and FDP, so the remark about the AfD being ahead of the Greens seems a bit irrelevant.

    Also I don't think many Germans have the idea that the Greens a 'hard left' party. For example, the Greens have been in coalition with the CDU in the state government of Baden-Württemberg since 2016.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,035
    edited August 11
    Muesli said:

    As I’m instinctively in favour of rent controls and against nuclear power, please could someone (SKS fan or otherwise) explain, patiently, objectively, and without resorting to insults:

    - why rent controls don’t work, and
    - how nuclear power is good for the environment?

    I am asking this with an open mind.

    (Not an SKS fan, but will nonetheless try to answer in good faith).

    Rent controls are a distortion to the market, and encourage bad behaviours from both landlords and tenants. Properties subject to rent control are usually poorly looked after on both sides, and landlords always want the tenant to leave because they get to refurb and rent at a higher rate. Tenants are often stuck in place, unable to move because they’d have to pay market rate elsewhere, affecting the mobility of labour and the makeup of families. Rents on new contracts need to take into account that they’re not going to be allowed to rise over time, so are more expensive than would be the case in a free market.

    Nuclear power is good for the environment because it mostly replaces power generation from the combustion of fossil fuels, with their associated carbon emissions. Nuclear plants don’t emit CO2 in operation, and can generate a lot of power for their physical size when compared to wind and solar farms.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,505

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 1983, that does suggest Germany has the same earthquake/tsunami risk as Japan, which is not necessarily the case.

    It has lower natural disaster risk but higher risk of invasion/war.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,468
    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    Surely not. Their contribution to the SNP government was so catastrophically bad that they stood out clearly even against a background of SNP incompetence. The bottle recycling scheme which has cost tens of millions, the unnecessary deaths on the A9, the absurd rent freeze that gave Edinburgh the fastest rising rents in the UK and Patrick Harvie, a man so odious that words simply fail me.
    The Scottish Greens gained considerably from the second vote for an alternative independence party but having destroyed the government of Yousaf (admittedly because of his own stupidity) I would not think that they would get the same again.
    You missed out the number of men of a certain age killed by red-faced apoplexy. There are many dangers out there for these chaps but the Greens have played their dastardly part.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,750
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
    Normal countries are independent.
    Normal countries are whatever the population wants it to be.

    In Scotland the voters decided it should remain part of the UK.
    In Scotland the voters decided they wanted to consider changing their mind. That was not allowed on spurious grounds (vide HYUFD postings ad nauseam).
    When did they do that?

    An election for a representative body is on a much broader range of topics than a single issue
    Manifestoes for Holyrood and Westminster elections.
    To repeat: An election for a representative body is on a much broader range of topics than a single issue

    It’s a fairly basic constitutional principle.

    Additionally the UK is a partnership - it’s not reasonable for one party to be able to perpetually destabilise the arrangement. A periodic vote is fair (to quote Alex Salmond “once in a generation”) but more frequent than that is an imposition on your partners
    Doesnt change the fact that the policy was in the manifestoes of the relevant parties. If that is good enough to be accepted at Westminster when it pertains to Unionist parties ...
    Sure it was in the manifesto. But it wasn’t in the power of the Holyrood government (it’s a reserved matter) and the SNP doesn’t have a majority in westminster
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,851
    Icarus said:

    Isn't the problem that Labour activists from the left of the Labour -some actually expelled - needed a party to play in and have adopted the Greens.

    I wonder if similarly some Liberal Democrats will miss being in a fringe party with no power or money and join the Conservatives as they drop into insignificance in council elections and at the next General Election.

    Liberals are always very good at supporting minorities, especially when they are weak, feeble and powerless.

    I think this is the most powerful argument that the Conservatives could use to entice Liberal Democrats to vote Conservative....
  • eekeek Posts: 27,325

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 1983, that does suggest Germany has the same earthquake/tsunami risk as Japan, which is not necessarily the case.

    It has lower natural disaster risk but higher risk of invasion/war.
    Really? In 2011 there was a plausible risk that Germany would be invaded?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,099

    Muesli said:

    As I’m instinctively in favour of rent controls and against nuclear power, please could someone (SKS fan or otherwise) explain, patiently, objectively, and without resorting to insults:

    - why rent controls don’t work, and
    - how nuclear power is good for the environment?

    I am asking this with an open mind.

    For simplicity assume that rents are completely fixed.

    Each year the real value of that rental income goes down

    Consequently no one will invest in expanding / improving the housing stock so it declines in aggregate quality.

    Furthermore when owners can, they take houses out of the stock for alternative uses reducing the pool of available housing

    Additionally it reduces social mobility because moving house can trigger a rent review - this has all sorts of economic impacts
    To which I would add: because the only way to change the rental level is for tht tenants to move, it encourages landlords to engage in unethical behavior in order to "encourage" tenants to move.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,700
    edited August 11
    Good morning everyone.

    Aaaaargggghhhh ... a ginormous dose of Stretch The Viable Conclusions From The Data Guy, John Burn-Murdoch. I'll come back to that :smile: .

    On a more important point, I can't help feeling that William Henson, Youtube Table Manners Guy, is an ex-habitue of PB.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdyyin_9izI

    Test question: Is it acceptable to stir the tea in your teacup clockwise, or anticlockwise?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,897

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
    Normal countries are independent.
    Normal countries are whatever the population wants it to be.

    In Scotland the voters decided it should remain part of the UK.
    Utter bollox, only subjugated countries are NOT Independent.
  • kamski said:

    Not sure about Burn-Murdoch's analysis of E&W Greens, but this comment on the German Greens is unconvincing:

    "We’ve seen something very similar play out with the German Greens since entering power.

    After losing progressive young voters over support for Ukraine, and moderate voters over botched heat pump policy, they’re now polling at their lowest level in 7 years, well behind the AfD."

    At the last federal election in 2021 Germans were not in power, and the 2022 invasion of Ukraine hadn't started. Greens got 14.7%. They are now polling around 12%, so they have lost about a fifth of their support. Could this be because of heat pumps, or is it more likely that it is because they are part of an extremely unpopular coalition?

    Let's check the other governing parties:
    SPD 2021 vote 25.7% current polling about 15% so they have lost over 2 fifths.
    FDP 2021 vote 11.4% current polling about 5% so they have lost more than half.

    Yes, the AfD are ahead of the Greens in polling. This is more due to an increase in AfD support than loss in Green support. AfD 2021 vote 10.4% current polling about 17%. The AfD are also now ahead of the SPD and FDP, so the remark about the AfD being ahead of the Greens seems a bit irrelevant.

    Also I don't think many Germans have the idea that the Greens a 'hard left' party. For example, the Greens have been in coalition with the CDU in the state government of Baden-Württemberg since 2016.

    It does seem to be a given that the more minor coalition partners get hammered the most during their time in government.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,015
    eek said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 1983, that does suggest Germany has the same earthquake/tsunami risk as Japan, which is not necessarily the case.

    It has lower natural disaster risk but higher risk of invasion/war.
    Really? In 2011 there was a plausible risk that Germany would be invaded?
    It was already quite apparent then, that Putin was using The Gas Weapon to strong arm what he regards as the Near Abroad.

    The building of pipelines, so that he could deliver gas to Western Europe separately, was quite clearly designed so that he could create leverage between Eastern and Western Europe by threatening gas supplies to one or other (or both).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,099
    Scott_xP said:
    To be fair, Las Vegas has about 60x as many people in it as Billings, Montana
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,198
    Scott_xP said:
    I am absolutely up for a dig at Trump but what is being compared there is the audience in front of Harris and the audience behind Trump. You surely don't go to these things to see the back of his head and that fact that people are sitting there might suggest that there is not a lot of space in front of him.

    Still, if its winding him up its not time wasted.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,897

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    I still have my hunch that the Greens could do very well in the next Scottish Parliament election, bringing voters across from the SNP and Labour - now both incumbents.

    And there is a slight chance the Conservatives pick a leader who goes for a "Teal" strategy, aiming to pick up older Greens, Lib Dems and Trad Tories (basically the RSPB member cohort) with a patchwork and inconsistent policy package of NIMBYism, protection of landscape, opposition to onshore turbines (but pro offshore), anti pollution and big on EVs etc

    What you smoking, the greens in Scotland are just a bunch of weirdo degenerates, halfwits and retreads. They certainly do not espouce any normal "Green" policies.
    In any normal country they would have zero representation in any governing body, ie they are a bunch of dangerous Fcukwits.
    So, are you saying Scotland is not a normal country?
    Normal countries are independent.
    Normal countries are whatever the population wants it to be.

    In Scotland the voters decided it should remain part of the UK.
    In Scotland the voters decided they wanted to consider changing their mind. That was not allowed on spurious grounds (vide HYUFD postings ad nauseam).
    When did they do that?

    An election for a representative body is on a much broader range of topics than a single issue
    Manifestoes for Holyrood and Westminster elections.
    To repeat: An election for a representative body is on a much broader range of topics than a single issue

    It’s a fairly basic constitutional principle.

    Additionally the UK is a partnership - it’s not reasonable for one party to be able to perpetually destabilise the arrangement. A periodic vote is fair (to quote Alex Salmond “once in a generation”) but more frequent than that is an imposition on your partners
    Doesnt change the fact that the policy was in the manifestoes of the relevant parties. If that is good enough to be accepted at Westminster when it pertains to Unionist parties ...
    Sure it was in the manifesto. But it wasn’t in the power of the Holyrood government (it’s a reserved matter) and the SNP doesn’t have a majority in westminster
    The Colonial overlords decided it was reserved, usual for all slave master states.
    How the Fcuk can 59 have a majority out of 650 you halfwitted cretin. It is far far far from a partnership , master slave relationship.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,254
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    To be fair, Las Vegas has about 60x as many people in it as Billings, Montana
    Why is Trump in Montana with only 100 days to go?
This discussion has been closed.