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Some interesting takeouts of the election in Scotland – politicalbetting.com

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  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,432

    Bollocks to your bollocks. Numerous media outlets have raised this as a concern, in our recent general election and elsewhere. For example:

    FT https://www.ft.com/video/4f473456-ca0e-4f0b-a9aa-9bac1e3220a6
    Reuters https://youtu.be/2e9eFprxP1I?feature=shared
    British Computer Society https://www.bcs.org/articles-opinion-and-research/deepfakes-a-major-risk-for-the-general-election-according-to-research-with-the-tech-profession/
    The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-election-rigged-deepfakes-ai-b2502385.html
    Sky News https://news.sky.com/story/warning-to-uk-politicians-over-risk-of-audio-deepfakes-that-could-derail-the-general-election-13146573 and https://news.sky.com/story/gravely-concerning-claims-of-russian-interference-in-general-election-to-spread-support-for-farages-reform-13161235
    Metro https://metro.co.uk/2024/07/02/spot-election-bot-fake-accounts-flood-social-media-21143917/

    And more broadly:
    CBC (Canada) https://youtu.be/B4jNttRvbpU?feature=shared
    Al Jazeera (on the US) https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/19/a-lack-of-trust-how-deepfakes-and-ai-could-rattle-the-us-elections
    Politico (on UK, EU elections and beyond) https://www.politico.eu/article/deepfakes-distrust-disinformation-welcome-ai-election-2024/
    The Sun (on the US) https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/28973865/ai-deepfakes-us-election-artificial-intelligence-fake-videos-voice/
    Scientific American (globally) https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-ai-bots-could-sabotage-2024-elections-around-the-world/


    Yes, but media feeds on other media. As an academic you must have experienced this? I have - a story in the local Dorset press gets picked up by the Daily Mail which is then picked up by the BBC and the rest.

    So how many of these stories that you list are stories about stories?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,477
    ..

    To be fair, after the campaign they have just fought, which managed to be both shameful and ineffective, I'd want to memory hole the whole thing. Presumably The Internet Never Forgets applies, though?

    See also the joke about Isaac Levido's next job interview:

    "About this gap in your CV in 2024..."

    "Prison. I was in prision."
    By all accounts, Levido wasn't listened to. He was against the premature election for a start.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Selebian said:

    There was, I believe, a design competition for new HV pylons, with some really interesting entries, but the selected one(s) were pretty uninspiring, presumably as cheaper than the fancier ones

    ETA: This wasn't what I was thinking of, but shows new pylon designs for UK at the end and some ideas from elsewhere. I'd guess the giant ones near the top would be quite expensive! The new ones in the UK, T design, do look better than the old.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66404487
    They had a design comp;etition in the 1920s-30s IIRC too.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited July 2024

    Yes, but media feeds on other media. As an academic you must have experienced this? I have - a story in the local Dorset press gets picked up by the Daily Mail which is then picked up by the BBC and the rest.

    So how many of these stories that you list are stories about stories?
    The classic is wikipedia sourcing....a source links to a newspaper article, that links to another newspaper article, whose source is wikipedia / social media that got their info from the original wikipedia article.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,373

    That wasn't my point. Its was BBC Verify have desperately tried to make a story when there wasn't one. They aren't reporting the news, they are trying to make news. The Reform one being a classic example, there was no story, but it lead major part of 10pm news.
    People are always claiming conspiracies, that the news is highlighting what it shouldn’t or not highlighting what it should. Bollocks to it all. There was a broad and real concern about deep fakes, bots etc. The BBC, among hundreds of pieces, has written on this topic with the URL you gave first, claiming they were “desperate”. Unable to defend this characterisation, you are now moving the goalposts to pick on something else. Get over yourself. Everyone isn’t out to get you.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,200
    Why am I struggling to sell my £1.6 Million house.

    Perhaps someone should tell her.....

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buying-selling/market-1m-plus-homes-slowing-families-are-suffering/
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,813

    The Tories have deleted their Twitter account.

    The Nigel Farage coup is under way. He has stormed CCHQ and captured the modern equivalent of the radio station.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,785

    No need. There's a film they can watch, Io Capitano. From this they will learn that people smugglers appoint the most clued up looking clients as captain and have no presence on the boats and no need to be in the UK at all, it's not like they are waiting at this end with medals and goody bags for successful finishers. So how a Home Office op works is anyone's guess.
    The fact that the BBC managed to get some people smugglers arrested following fairly simple investigation does rather point to the current Home Office not being up to the job.

    Incidentally, no new small boats so far under the Starmer government.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats-last-7-days
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited July 2024

    People are always claiming conspiracies, that the news is highlighting what it shouldn’t or not highlighting what it should. Bollocks to it all. There was a broad and real concern about deep fakes, bots etc. The BBC, among hundreds of pieces, has written on this topic with the URL you gave first, claiming they were “desperate”. Unable to defend this characterisation, you are now moving the goalposts to pick on something else. Get over yourself. Everyone isn’t out to get you.
    Nobody is out to get me. BBC Verify is just shit at their job and they have run a load of pieces that are bullshit and were desperate to find something, anything, and twisted things that weren't.

    I actually know somebody who does this work for governments, investigating bots and misleading information disseminated via social media, and put it this way, they aren't doing what BBC Verify did.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,477

    That wasn't my point. Its was BBC Verify have desperately tried to make a story when there wasn't one. They aren't reporting the news, they are trying to make news. The Reform one being a classic example, there was no story, but it lead major part of 10pm news.

    Is there concern over generative AI yes. Have BBC Verify stories found real evidence of its widespread use influencing our general election, no.
    There's also the Farage episode of QT where one of the 'plucky members of the voting public' asking a question was a BBC producer and the supposedly representative audience was somewhere to the left of Lenin.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,432

    The Tories are so incompetent, however, that their failure to do something doesn’t prove it wasn’t their number one priority. They said reducing immigration was a priority and look what happened there.
    The most recent bunch were incompetent for sure, but I don't think they all have been.

    Basically the idea that the Tories (and now the Red Tories) are just desperate to privatise ("sell-off") the NHS is a fake news story beloved of the left. What all governments should want is the NHS to be the best it can, giving as good a care as it can given the constraints it suffers. There is not infinite money, consultants, operating theatres, social care etc. If there are ways to use the private sector to do things better then so be it. If the state does it better then so be it.

    Its just that here we are in 2024, with plenty of Tory government time in the past and the NHS has somehow NOT been sold off.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,373
    Pulpstar said:

    I've published the full vote counts in a single sheet. Have any results been changed after LA verification ever ? It must be an exceedingly rare event.
    I do recall cases previously, although they were rare and minor.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617

    In Portugal, they have cell phone towers disguised as trees.
    Specially for Horse: 200 years ago the Admiralty built a comms tower right next to the M25. And made provision for holiday residence. Clever clogs.

    https://www.landmarktrust.org.uk/search-and-book/properties/semaphore-tower-58731/#Overview
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,200

    OT - anyone else get emails from LinkedIn and read Co-workers as cow workers?

    Or just me?

    It is usually stories of astonishing generosity from a well paid CEO of a business buying a bagel and a coffee for a tramp and then saying how wonderful it made them feel and it isn't all about working, or some other such guff, that seems to come to me.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    Foxy said:

    The fact that the BBC managed to get some people smugglers arrested following fairly simple investigation does rather point to the current Home Office not being up to the job.

    Incidentally, no new small boats so far under the Starmer government.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats-last-7-days
    But I think they had to go to Belgium to find the guy?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617

    The most recent bunch were incompetent for sure, but I don't think they all have been.

    Basically the idea that the Tories (and now the Red Tories) are just desperate to privatise ("sell-off") the NHS is a fake news story beloved of the left. What all governments should want is the NHS to be the best it can, giving as good a care as it can given the constraints it suffers. There is not infinite money, consultants, operating theatres, social care etc. If there are ways to use the private sector to do things better then so be it. If the state does it better then so be it.

    Its just that here we are in 2024, with plenty of Tory government time in the past and the NHS has somehow NOT been sold off.
    Quite a bit has, if you look more closely. Patient data processing: the recent hack was in a commercial firm.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    Eabhal said:

    I don't think they need to have a monopoly in a general sense. Even in a competitive market, the profit maximising quantity and type of house to provide is not necessarily the best for housing as many people as possible.

    Even within the Edinburgh bypass, developers are building detached houses with tiny gardens. When my flat was built 150 years ago, they transformed a field into tenements. You can house 6x as many people on the same footprint as those detached houses, and it's still only medium density.
    Planning guidance means that a certain density has to achieved (hence proliferation of three storey houses with small gardens) and not enough parking is provided (The bane of new build estates particularly at the end of a cul-de-sac.) In a free market we would see some development that had more space for more money, but most higher end builds are now redevelopment of a single older property to significantly enlarge and improve.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,158

    Cheers - I found it and then went for a drive on google maps! As you know I am not that far away in Warminster and we often head south for walks etc
    It's not far from Melbury Beacon, you'll be able to see our house from there (along with quite a few others as I think you can see for 30 miles on a clear day).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,520

    To quote a film in a setting not unadjacent to the constituency he ran in, 'You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself.'
    Though he's not averse to using his fists in certain advantageous circumstance I believe.
    Ah Caine, I'm thinking. That film where he comes out of a house bollock naked holding a shotgun.

    No, that's not Liddle. Not the shotgun part anyway.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,902

    Cow orkers for me. I always wonder what orking is and whether doing it to cows is legal, decent and humane.
    It sounds like a bad hobbit to me.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,373

    Yes, but media feeds on other media. As an academic you must have experienced this? I have - a story in the local Dorset press gets picked up by the Daily Mail which is then picked up by the BBC and the rest.

    So how many of these stories that you list are stories about stories?
    I have experienced media feeding on media. I appeared on the Today programme and then got flooded with requests by all and sundry! However, on a quick scan, none of the articles I posted are sourced to BBC investigation. FU’s claim that the BBC are pushing a line to create a story is baloney.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,432
    Carnyx said:

    They had a design comp;etition in the 1920s-30s IIRC too.
    I kinda wanted them to go with an Anthony Gormley style man/woman holding the wires in upraised hands, but would have been a little bit Gates of Argonath...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,520
    kjh said:

    I saw that Ian, but I need it NOW. I have withdrawal symptoms. Thanks everyone else also.
    Saturday Times had them all in a special pullout.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,502
    Foxy said:

    The fact that the BBC managed to get some people smugglers arrested following fairly simple investigation does rather point to the current Home Office not being up to the job.

    Incidentally, no new small boats so far under the Starmer government.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats-last-7-days
    Ah, so it was 0 when the Tories left office. :wink:
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617

    I can see one on the horizon from my kitchen, up on the downs above Fontmell Magna. It's pretty good tbf, you have to get quite close to see it's not a scots pine. We use it to mark the turning of winter as the sun rises directly behind it for just one or two days around 5th January.

    Not sure if this link will work:

    https://maps.app.goo.gl/HiPtL1EvDJhMGhgh9
    Nice to see the megalithic tradition alive and well!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited July 2024
    Foxy said:

    The fact that the BBC managed to get some people smugglers arrested following fairly simple investigation does rather point to the current Home Office not being up to the job.

    Incidentally, no new small boats so far under the Starmer government.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats-last-7-days
    I think the Home Office not being fit for purpose has been going on for as long as the Home Office been about. It is why it was also thought of as the job no aspiring politician wanted as likely to damage your career. Also why a reason given that May might actually be good, because she survived her time there, obviously reality didn't quite work out like that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,840

    Awaits to see an open and fair application process for the head of the Command. Does not hold breath. Will be member of the new 10K. An ex post office worker could do it...
    Paula Vennels?
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    Taz said:

    Why am I struggling to sell my £1.6 Million house.

    Perhaps someone should tell her.....

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buying-selling/market-1m-plus-homes-slowing-families-are-suffering/

    Her surname is Lane Fox, so you would think some relatives could give her a clue

    Presumably she is besties with the Tel property editor and getting free advertising for her actually £1.0m house
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited July 2024

    I have experienced media feeding on media. I appeared on the Today programme and then got flooded with requests by all and sundry! However, on a quick scan, none of the articles I posted are sourced to BBC investigation. FU’s claim that the BBC are pushing a line to create a story is baloney.
    They literally did....I gave you two concentrate examples where they ran absolute horseshit stories on this topic.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,432

    It's not far from Melbury Beacon, you'll be able to see our house from there (along with quite a few others as I think you can see for 30 miles on a clear day).
    I wonder how far north you can see - maybe the Longleat woods? Tip of Cley Hill?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,785

    UK constituencies ranked by deprivation: https://automaticknowledge.org/images/ge2024-uk-chart-600dpi.png

    Poor areas vote Labour (or Sinn Fein or Reform UK). Rich areas vote LibDem or Tory.

    I see that Labour won the bottom 8 columns and had significant presence in the top 2.

    Pretty impressive range.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,158
    Foxy said:

    The fact that the BBC managed to get some people smugglers arrested following fairly simple investigation does rather point to the current Home Office not being up to the job.

    Incidentally, no new small boats so far under the Starmer government.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats-last-7-days
    I now have a vision of Starmer as Prospero up on the Dover cliffs whipping up a series of squalls to put-off the people smugglers. Seems to be working so far.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,534

    @alexwickham
    Exclusive:

    — Reeves looking to convene Treasury investors’ taskforce tomorrow bringing in private finance
    — Border Security Command launching imminently, as soon as Tues
    — new non-dom figures published Tues ahead of crackdown
    — GB Energy launch next week


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1810261295129583730

    Not bad for a party with "No plan".

    — Onshore wind ban dumped
    — Planning regulations to change
    — Data centre planning applications that have been refused called in.

    Which party was supposed to be the party of business again?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited July 2024

    @alexwickham
    Exclusive:

    — Reeves looking to convene Treasury investors’ taskforce tomorrow bringing in private finance
    — Border Security Command launching imminently, as soon as Tues
    — new non-dom figures published Tues ahead of crackdown
    — GB Energy launch next week


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1810261295129583730

    Not bad for a party with "No plan".

    I am not sure government figures published as always is "plan", and the first two are basically rebadging existing approaches.

    What is obviously important is delivery. If they can get the Home Office running smoothly that will be amazing achievement that virtually no politician has managed, regardless of party. Last time in power, Labour, was it Darling? said it wasn't fit for purpose and they split it, and it was still a disaster zone.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,092
    Trump is widely expected to announce his vice-presidential pick this week - ny times
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,085
    edited July 2024
    Here's an interesting fact, the Lib Dems got more votes in Winchester than the entire voting population in three constituencies.

    Orkney and Shetland & Western Isles are no surprise as they're particularly small constituencies (By population) but the third was Manchester Rusholme.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,847

    Nobody is out to get me. BBC Verify is just shit at their job and they have run a load of pieces that are bullshit and were desperate to find something, anything, and twisted things that weren't.

    I actually know somebody who does this work for governments, investigating bots and misleading information disseminated via social media, and put it this way, they aren't doing what BBC Verify did.
    I have literally dozens of followers on TwiX, yet have posted nothing. I'd not rule out their being bot accounts building credibility. If your mate knows anything...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,432

    Paula Vennels?
    She'd do a job, surely?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,785

    But I think they had to go to Belgium to find the guy?
    Yep, shows how co operating with our continental neighbours gets results.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,534
    Nigelb said:

    I'm old enough to recall Luckyguy's dogged scepticism about the Russian strike on a maternity hospital, back at the beginning of the war.

    I am sorry if I seem sarcastic. It is exasperating seeing people downplay this. It is an act of barbaric terrorism. Targeting hospitals, intentionally. A CHILDRENS HOSPITAL. I have seen a video of a young child covered in surgical scars being treated for shrapnel wounds. I don't know what those scars are from. Maybe a cancer? Why should a children then be shot at with missiles? Only a terrorist would target them.

    These are intentional strikes on hospitals.

    https://x.com/AndrewPerpetua/status/1810274934356144265

    Russians 🤝 Warcrimes

    Some things never change do they?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,220

    The one with a fixed direction turbine? That’s just stupid.
    Well, indeed. It also seems to be missing a support for the central pivot point, unless there's a fancy rim bearing/power transfer system.

    Personally, I like the giant ants or - of the sane ones - the Arup one
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,392
    Pulpstar said:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ed3dPoQSbmeOQKdZ3klOspS6uZDJ6x5W5xacgX-oWk4/edit?usp=sharing

    Tab "Detailed results"
    Excellent.
  • Foxy said:

    The fact that the BBC managed to get some people smugglers arrested following fairly simple investigation does rather point to the current Home Office not being up to the job.

    Incidentally, no new small boats so far under the Starmer government.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats-last-7-days
    Yep - I was going to suggest the HO / NCA could just get a transcript of the BBC scorpion podcast and leave it at that.

    On that point, what struck me in that boats were the cheapest (and most dangerous way) over. However, trucks are still an option, and in that documentary they even covered a VIP option where you get to go on the ferry as an ordinary passenger.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited July 2024

    Yep - I was going to suggest the HO / NCA could just get a transcript of the BBC scorpion podcast and leave it at that.

    On that point, what struck me in that boats were the cheapest (and most dangerous way) over. However, trucks are still an option, and in that documentary they even covered a VIP option where you get to go on the ferry as an ordinary passenger.
    This problem wasn't new with small boats. In 2000s it was trucks, but over the years they made it harder and harder to get on to them and so the approach transferred to using boats.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,200

    Nobody is out to get me. BBC Verify is just shit at their job and they have run a load of pieces that are bullshit and were desperate to find something, anything, and twisted things that weren't.

    I actually know somebody who does this work for governments, investigating bots and misleading information disseminated via social media, and put it this way, they aren't doing what BBC Verify did.

    Nobody is out to get me. BBC Verify is just shit at their job and they have run a load of pieces that are bullshit and were desperate to find something, anything, and twisted things that weren't.

    I actually know somebody who does this work for governments, investigating bots and misleading information disseminated via social media, and put it this way, they aren't doing what BBC Verify did.
    Here's a Deepfake story on the BBC.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3grw7l19v2o
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,902

    Trump is widely expected to announce his vice-presidential pick this week - ny times

    I expect the news to be a nothingburgum.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,847
    Nigelb said:

    I'm old enough to recall Luckyguy's dogged scepticism about the Russian strike on a maternity hospital, back at the beginning of the war.

    I am sorry if I seem sarcastic. It is exasperating seeing people downplay this. It is an act of barbaric terrorism. Targeting hospitals, intentionally. A CHILDRENS HOSPITAL. I have seen a video of a young child covered in surgical scars being treated for shrapnel wounds. I don't know what those scars are from. Maybe a cancer? Why should a children then be shot at with missiles? Only a terrorist would target them.

    These are intentional strikes on hospitals.

    https://x.com/AndrewPerpetua/status/1810274934356144265

    PMQs writes itself. Will the PM condemn blowing up hospitals in Ukraine? Followed by will the PM condemn blowing up hospitals in Gaza? It would not surprise me if VVP set the trap himself.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited July 2024
    Taz said:



    Here's a Deepfake story on the BBC.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3grw7l19v2o

    One piece of advice I would have, if you use those authentic by voice for your banking service, disable it now.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Nigelb said:

    No kidding.

    Supreme Court immunity ruling raises questions about military orders
    https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4757168-supreme-court-immunity-military-orders/
    ...Victor Hansen, professor of law at the New England School of Law in Boston, explained that service members still have to adhere to legal standards even if the president does not and said the Supreme Court ruling “flips the dynamic on its head.”
    “Now you have the subordinates who have not all of the authority but all of the responsibility,” said Hansen, who served a 20-year career as a military lawyer in the U.S. Army. “And you have a guy at the top who has all the authority and none of the responsibility.”
    “It is, in my humble opinion, an absurd and damaging ruling,” he added. ..

    It is an insane ruling, and SCOTUS know it. They just don't care, because they've set it up in a way that means it always comes back up to them. So, if they like it and it's done by a Republican, it will be immune, and if they don't like it and it's done by a Democrat, it won't be. This is pure political power being wielded from the bench - and the sooner the Dems wake up to that fact and start fighting back, the better.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,432

    PMQs writes itself. Will the PM condemn blowing up hospitals in Ukraine? Followed by will the PM condemn blowing up hospitals in Gaza? It would not surprise me if VVP set the trap himself.
    Blackadder had the answer in series 4, when discussing spies.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,534
    kjh said:

    Excellent.
    Or, if you like your data in json form, grab https://interactive.guim.co.uk/2024/07/elex-data/production/data/ge/thinresults.json from the Guardian Election page.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,419
    UEFA - corrupt as fuck if England lose on Wednesday


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,902
    Reeves getting her rebuttals in before any opposition attacks.

    ..I have repeatedly warned that whoever won the general election would inherit the worst set of circumstances since the second world war.
    What I have seen in the past 72 hours has only confirmed that. Our economy has been held back by decisions deferred and decisions ducked. Political self-interest put ahead of the national interest. A government that put party first and country second.
    We face the legacy of 14 years of chaos and economic irresponsibility.
    That is why over the weekend, I instructed Treasury officials to provide an assessment of the state of our spending inheritance so that I can understand the full scale of the challenge. And I will present this to parliament before the summer recess.
    This will be separate from a budget that will be held later this year...


    In all fairness, she's not entirely wrong.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,847

    Blackadder had the answer in series 4, when discussing spies.
    You know that was actually based in fact? Churchill sent a memo:-

    Enemy submarines are to be called U-boats. The term "submarine" is to be reserved for Allied underwater vessels.

    U-boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs.


  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited July 2024
    Foxy said:

    The fact that the BBC managed to get some people smugglers arrested following fairly simple investigation does rather point to the current Home Office not being up to the job.

    Incidentally, no new small boats so far under the Starmer government.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats-last-7-days
    Erhhh....

    Border Force brings small boat migrants ashore in Dover today
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/08/politics-election-keir-starmer-tories-latest-news/
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,158

    I wonder how far north you can see - maybe the Longleat woods? Tip of Cley Hill?
    I'm afraid Shaftesbury (249m) will be in the way of Cley Hill (245m). NW you can see the Mendips 30-40 miles away. NNW Long Knoll (288m) is just south of Longleat.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited July 2024

    UEFA - corrupt as fuck if England lose on Wednesday


    I remember the story about the corrupt German refs. If I remember it was a big piece in the Athletic, it was incredibly serious yet swept under the carpet. How are they even still working?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,220

    She'd do a job, surely?
    Good at securing convictions...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,158

    Erhhh....

    Border Force brings small boat migrants ashore in Dover today
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/08/politics-election-keir-starmer-tories-latest-news/
    Honeymoon over!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,432
    Nigelb said:

    Reeves getting her rebuttals in before any opposition attacks.

    ..I have repeatedly warned that whoever won the general election would inherit the worst set of circumstances since the second world war.
    What I have seen in the past 72 hours has only confirmed that. Our economy has been held back by decisions deferred and decisions ducked. Political self-interest put ahead of the national interest. A government that put party first and country second.
    We face the legacy of 14 years of chaos and economic irresponsibility.
    That is why over the weekend, I instructed Treasury officials to provide an assessment of the state of our spending inheritance so that I can understand the full scale of the challenge. And I will present this to parliament before the summer recess.
    This will be separate from a budget that will be held later this year...


    In all fairness, she's not entirely wrong.

    Worse than 2010?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited July 2024
    Nigelb said:

    Reeves getting her rebuttals in before any opposition attacks.

    ..I have repeatedly warned that whoever won the general election would inherit the worst set of circumstances since the second world war.
    What I have seen in the past 72 hours has only confirmed that. Our economy has been held back by decisions deferred and decisions ducked. Political self-interest put ahead of the national interest. A government that put party first and country second.
    We face the legacy of 14 years of chaos and economic irresponsibility.
    That is why over the weekend, I instructed Treasury officials to provide an assessment of the state of our spending inheritance so that I can understand the full scale of the challenge. And I will present this to parliament before the summer recess.
    This will be separate from a budget that will be held later this year...


    In all fairness, she's not entirely wrong.

    Paul Johnson of the IFS rather amusing said this is what she will do and then in a few weeks will express shock and horror that things are far worse than anybody knew. He said its all play acting, all the information you need is available these days should you want to do your own assessment.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,158

    UEFA - corrupt as fuck if England lose on Wednesday


    Or inspired, if we win.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,537

    Worse than 2010?
    Yes by miles.

    Just look at our roads, local government, NHS...

  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    An aim that the Tories have apparently never manage to achieve, despite being in power from 1979 to 1997, and then 2010 until last Friday. Hardly seems to be their number one priority.
    I'd be convinced to vote Labour if they were look at some form of NHS insurance model. In mad right wing failing states like France and Germany. I did a couple of days work experience during my German A-level in a health insurance office and was surprised to find out that everyone is entitled to free healthcare and the Government pays the insurance premium of those not in work. The big downside to this type of model is that healthcare outcomes are better and the whole system costs less money - sorry I meant upside. The downside is that we lose a national religion.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,902
    148grss said:

    It is an insane ruling, and SCOTUS know it. They just don't care, because they've set it up in a way that means it always comes back up to them. So, if they like it and it's done by a Republican, it will be immune, and if they don't like it and it's done by a Democrat, it won't be. This is pure political power being wielded from the bench - and the sooner the Dems wake up to that fact and start fighting back, the better.
    They're quite awake to it.

    The dilemma is how to respond without showing the same utter disregard for law and constitution that the conservatives on the court - and in Congress - have displayed.

    Without reliable majorities in Congress, and particularly a few months before an election, their room for manoeuvre is limited.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,432
    Nigelb said:

    Reeves getting her rebuttals in before any opposition attacks.

    ..I have repeatedly warned that whoever won the general election would inherit the worst set of circumstances since the second world war.
    What I have seen in the past 72 hours has only confirmed that. Our economy has been held back by decisions deferred and decisions ducked. Political self-interest put ahead of the national interest. A government that put party first and country second.
    We face the legacy of 14 years of chaos and economic irresponsibility.
    That is why over the weekend, I instructed Treasury officials to provide an assessment of the state of our spending inheritance so that I can understand the full scale of the challenge. And I will present this to parliament before the summer recess.
    This will be separate from a budget that will be held later this year...


    In all fairness, she's not entirely wrong.

    Worse than 2010?

    I'm afraid Shaftesbury (249m) will be in the way of Cley Hill (245m). NW you can see the Mendips 30-40 miles away. NNW Long Knoll (288m) is just south of Longleat.
    You can probably see the mendip aerial then, I'm guessing? I find that helps orienting myself pretty much anywhere round the area!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,172
    Nigelb said:

    Reeves getting her rebuttals in before any opposition attacks.

    ..I have repeatedly warned that whoever won the general election would inherit the worst set of circumstances since the second world war.
    What I have seen in the past 72 hours has only confirmed that. Our economy has been held back by decisions deferred and decisions ducked. Political self-interest put ahead of the national interest. A government that put party first and country second.
    We face the legacy of 14 years of chaos and economic irresponsibility.
    That is why over the weekend, I instructed Treasury officials to provide an assessment of the state of our spending inheritance so that I can understand the full scale of the challenge. And I will present this to parliament before the summer recess.
    This will be separate from a budget that will be held later this year...


    In all fairness, she's not entirely wrong.

    All together now...

    "Now I've opened the books, I've discovered that the Tories left an even worse mess than I thought.."

    Utterly predictable, but respect for saying it so well.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,158
    eek said:

    Yes by miles.

    Just look at our roads, local government, NHS...

    ...prisons, justice system, social care, education...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,902

    PMQs writes itself. Will the PM condemn blowing up hospitals in Ukraine? Followed by will the PM condemn blowing up hospitals in Gaza? It would not surprise me if VVP set the trap himself.
    It's not hard to answer.
    The answer is yes.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,534

    Worse than 2010?
    2008 left us with a bankrupt banking sector, the costs of which were allocated according to political priorities.

    In 2024 we’re left with the legacy of failing to invest in infrastructure for 15 years, with arguably years of under-investment before that: The Treasury even wanted to cancel Crossrail!

    Hard to say which is worse tbh.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Here comes the traditional Civil Service wishlist again.

    Exhibit 1: Road pricing. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/07/08/labour-must-consider-pay-per-mile-road-tax/

    We’ll probably have ID cards tomorrow.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,419

    I remember the story about the corrupt German refs. If I remember it was a big piece in the Athletic, it was incredibly serious yet swept under the carpet. How are they even still working?
    He basically snitched and helped the prosecution which got him brownie points when they convicted the ref who offered him the bribe.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,158
    Sandpit said:

    Here comes the traditional Civil Service wishlist again.

    Exhibit 1: Road pricing. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/07/08/labour-must-consider-pay-per-mile-road-tax/

    We’ll probably have ID cards tomorrow.

    Yes please.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,158
    edited July 2024

    All together now...

    "Now I've opened the books, I've discovered that the Tories left an even worse mess than I thought.."

    Utterly predictable, but respect for saying it so well.
    The worst of it is it's also utterly believable.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,419

    Or inspired, if we win.
    31 years ago it was a shit German referee whose performance cost England a place at 1994 World Cup when he gave a shit performance in our match against the Netherlands.

    He failed to send off Ronald Koeman for a blatant red card offence and Koeman a few minutes later scored the winning goal.

    Koeman is the Netherlands manager.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,541
    Sandpit said:

    Here comes the traditional Civil Service wishlist again.

    Exhibit 1: Road pricing. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/07/08/labour-must-consider-pay-per-mile-road-tax/

    We’ll probably have ID cards tomorrow.

    Blair's already called for them.

    Whilst I'm against, they would solve a whole list of problems - including, partially, immigration.

    Although we would have to work out whether to regularize or deport the million or so illegal immigrants - does anyone have the stomach to deport fifty thousand indian grandmas who've overstayed their visa by ten years?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,534

    Yes please.
    Yvette Cooper has already cut the strings of that particular bit of kite flying.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,750
    edited July 2024

    I'd be convinced to vote Labour if they were look at some form of NHS insurance model. In mad right wing failing states like France and Germany. I did a couple of days work experience during my German A-level in a health insurance office and was surprised to find out that everyone is entitled to free healthcare and the Government pays the insurance premium of those not in work. The big downside to this type of model is that healthcare outcomes are better and the whole system costs less money - sorry I meant upside. The downside is that we lose a national religion.
    The Germans spend more as a percent of GDP than we do. So is healthcare cheaper in Germany?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited July 2024

    He basically snitched and helped the prosecution which got him brownie points when they convicted the ref who offered him the bribe.
    If I remember correctly, the story was three brothers from Balkans who organised widespread match fixing by bribing the refs and players, and made millions betting on the outcomes.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,172

    The worst of it is it's also utterly believable.
    And it's believeable because, at some level, we all know it's true. There aren't any easy ways out of this.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,520

    All together now...

    "Now I've opened the books, I've discovered that the Tories left an even worse mess than I thought.."

    Utterly predictable, but respect for saying it so well.
    ie There's No Money.

    Perhaps she found a jokey little note to that effect from Jeremy Hunt that Labour can keep referring to in every election for the next 20 years.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Nigelb said:

    They're quite awake to it.

    The dilemma is how to respond without showing the same utter disregard for law and constitution that the conservatives on the court - and in Congress - have displayed.

    Without reliable majorities in Congress, and particularly a few months before an election, their room for manoeuvre is limited.
    They aren't - Biden basically made a speech where he was like "the SC ruled this way, but be assured, I won't use any of the powers given to me". And there are lots of things congress can do - even if they don't achieve it - such as starting the impeachment process for all the justices who signed on to that ruling. It is a disqualifying ruling and should be treated as such. But, once again, the Dems refuse to fight. The tools of and respect for the system cannot constrain one side and not the other - I'm sorry, but the Dems will have to discard norms to deal with this. Because accepting norms assumes good faith by both sides.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,750
    Sandpit said:

    Here comes the traditional Civil Service wishlist again.

    Exhibit 1: Road pricing. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/07/08/labour-must-consider-pay-per-mile-road-tax/

    We’ll probably have ID cards tomorrow.

    In our electric era how else will we pay for the roads? 'As you go' pricing seems fairer than the alternatives.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,070

    The Germans spend more as a percent of GDP than we do. So is healthcare cheaper in Germany?
    Also your doctor/dentist asks you to check with your insurance if you are covered before they start non urgent treatment, as each of the "public health insurers" has a different policy.

    Also I am forced to have 50% private and 50% public insurance as I have a permanent public sector job.

    There are many other frustrating aspects with the fundingg side of German health care, in short, it is a beauracratic jungle.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,974
    edited July 2024
    Sandpit said:

    Here comes the traditional Civil Service wishlist again.

    Exhibit 1: Road pricing. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/07/08/labour-must-consider-pay-per-mile-road-tax/

    We’ll probably have ID cards tomorrow.

    We had an interesting and balanced debate about road pricing earlier. I personally think per mile pricing is wrong, as it punishes the wrong kind of journey. It's the shorter, urban journeys where alternatives exist that you want to make relatively less attractive, while making journeys in rural areas much cheaper.

    A general policy of reducing the fixed costs of motoring while increasing the marginal costs can only be a good thing though.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,172
    kinabalu said:

    ie There's No Money.

    Perhaps she found a jokey little note to that effect from Jeremy Hunt that Labour can keep referring to in every election for the next 20 years.
    Couldn't afford the notepaper for that.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,782

    Bollocks. They have run several stories which basically tried to dress up we didn't find anything of note as a story of note

    e.g Reform "bots", was actually real people who for all the evidence BBC Verify found are erhhh supporters of Reform. The only account they found that could be a bot had 150 followers. And this made the big headline on 10 o' clock news....

    They also ran the Trump deep fakes one that was an account that was very clear a parody meme account, there was no attempt to try to disguise it was real.
    are you a failed BBC journalist? you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time bitching about them
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    kinabalu said:

    ie There's No Money.

    Perhaps she found a jokey little note to that effect from Jeremy Hunt that Labour can keep referring to in every election for the next 20 years.
    The thing is, there is money. The government just have to be willing to go and get it. Instead of waiting for the private sector to magically invest in things and only providing carrots - provide sticks as well. You have lots of profit just going to shareholders and less and less reinvestment into anything productive - tax. You have lots of capital just sloshing around growing because of computerised number crunching and no productive labour output - tax. You have properties / land sitting empty, accruing value due to speculating and taking debts out against this speculative value - tax. You don't have to balance the budget - you are a sovereign government, not a family; money gets printed in a way you have some influence over.

    But no - only neoliberalism allowed. Red puppet or blue puppet - just don't question the man who operates them both...
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    You're a football fan aren't you? Would you rather win 3-0 or lose 5-4?
    Jeremy Corbyn was the greatest recruiter of tory voters ever. Completely devoid from reality and open about it - there was no way to fund his policies except additional borrowing. Keir is a return to sensible Labour politics where implementation is actually considered.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,220

    Erhhh....

    Border Force brings small boat migrants ashore in Dover today
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/08/politics-election-keir-starmer-tories-latest-news/
    Check out "Telegraph readers respond to Reeves’ first speech" further down. If that's representative and Telegraph readers have gone over to the red side then the Tories really are doomed.
  • Eabhal said:

    Your problem is that at the end of the day, you'll tolerate NIMBYism as long as it is consistent with your personal views on how the country should work. In this case, property rights versus a very specific type of national energy infrastructure - wind turbines.

    I don't see why any landowner should be allowed to stymie the progress of the country. OTOH, I also don't think you should sacrifice an area of outstanding beauty like the Lake District for turbines. We're both NIMBYs, like it or not.
    Bullshit.

    NIMBYism is telling people they can't build what they want to build. It is deeply illiberal.

    People not wanting to build anything on their own land is their own free choice. It is completely liberal.

    No landowner should be allowed to stymie the progress of the country, if any landowner wants their own land to stagnate in value then that's their own choice, let others make a profit instead.

    However as I've said many times before, I would tax all land based on its undeveloped value, since land is a finite resource for this country and all landowners should pay their fair share of the upkeep of the country.

    So someone who develops their land should be paying no more taxation than someone who does not - conversely not developing land still gets the same tax as if you do.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,487
    Selebian said:

    Check out "Telegraph readers respond to Reeves’ first speech" further down. If that's representative and Telegraph readers have gone over to the red side then the Tories really are doomed.
    Labour are delivering on the deregulation agenda. It's what we would have got if Truss hadn't been brought down.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,477
    edited July 2024

    The worst of it is it's also utterly believable.
    Albeit clearly scheduled in weeks ago.

    The Tories would respond only the CCHQ geniuses have deleted their Twitter.

    Reform will be finding themselves the real opposition a bit quicker than expected if this carries on.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,581

    If I remember correctly, the story was three brothers from Balkans who organised widespread match fixing by bribing the refs and players, and made millions betting on the outcomes.
    At least they did it for money,TSE. When I was an active referee the usual drill for ambitious referees was simply to check out who was sitting in the stands and if it was anyone important you made sure you leaned the way of the club with which that person was associated.

    Pierluigi Collina did a great deal to stamp out this kind of thing at international level, but it's practically impossible to stop completely. He was certainly very successful at the Qatar World Cup, although the Brazilian in charge of the charge of the England/France game was an exception, and was plainly dishonest. In his case, I suspect it was straight bribery rather than a desire to ingratiate himself with the right people, You can never be sure though. He was roundly condemned in his own country, but Brazilians see far worse daily in their own domestic competitons so at home he would have shrugged it off easily enough.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,698
    148grss said:

    The thing is, there is money. The government just have to be willing to go and get it. Instead of waiting for the private sector to magically invest in things and only providing carrots - provide sticks as well. You have lots of profit just going to shareholders and less and less reinvestment into anything productive - tax. You have lots of capital just sloshing around growing because of computerised number crunching and no productive labour output - tax. You have properties / land sitting empty, accruing value due to speculating and taking debts out against this speculative value - tax. You don't have to balance the budget - you are a sovereign government, not a family; money gets printed in a way you have some influence over.

    But no - only neoliberalism allowed. Red puppet or blue puppet - just don't question the man who operates them both...
    It astonishes me that people think like this. "You don't have to balance the budget" implies a belief you can make money magically appear. You can't. If you try, you destroy the value of money which already exists.
  • Peter Mandelson oversaw Labour gain seats.

    Issac Levido just oversaw the worst Tory result I think ever.

    Man is an over-promoted prat. This is the second election he has "been involved with" where the incumbent has lost.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,297
    edited July 2024

    I'd be convinced to vote Labour if they were look at some form of NHS insurance model. In mad right wing failing states like France and Germany. I did a couple of days work experience during my German A-level in a health insurance office and was surprised to find out that everyone is entitled to free healthcare and the Government pays the insurance premium of those not in work. The big downside to this type of model is that healthcare outcomes are better and the whole system costs less money - sorry I meant upside. The downside is that we lose a national religion.
    Doesn't it also have a massive political upside too? If healthcare is provided by insurance companies rather than the state, every scandal, crisis and disaster is one step further away from being the direct responsibility of the Department of Health and their minister. Obviously less so if you are the minister who's just privatised it, but that's a one hit for someone, and then every successor reaps the benefits.
This discussion has been closed.