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Your chart du jour – politicalbetting.com

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  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,285
    edited June 2024
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Not sure if this has been reported elsewhere - if so, apologies but we have a London GE poll:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/london-general-election-poll-labour-tories-reform-lib-dems-b1166266.html

    Labour 55%, Conservative 22%, LD 10%, Reform 8%, Greens 5%.

    Since 2019, that's Labour +6, Conservative -10, LD -5, Reform +6.5, Green +2

    A swing of 8% from Conservative to Labour and 2.5% from Conservative to Liberal Democrat so not the big moves we've seen in other parts of the country. We did see from the Holborn & St Pancras poll yesterday some Green strength and Labour weakness in Inner London and I expect we're seeing stronger Labour scores in Outer London.

    Just to remind you, I have the following London bets:

    Harrow East – CON 9/4
    Ruislip, Northwood & Pinner – CON 4/5
    Bromley & Biggin Hill – CON 11/8
    Croydon East – CON 10/1
    Croydon South – CON 2/1
    Sutton & Cheam – LD 11/10
    Romford – CON 6/4

    Apart from Croydon East, which has gone - I'm concerned about Harrow East but I'm happy with the other five and while we can see the Conservatives being reduced from the 21 sats they won last time down to single figures, I don't see a wipeout on these numbers.

    This poll is the perfect illustration of what's going on at this election. The reason the Tories are down so much overall is because of a swing to Ref, but because Farage's party is much less popular in London, the Tories are correspondingly doing much better. On the other hand, Lab +6 is pretty much the same as the rest of the country.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,153
    Nunu5 said:

    Are the MRPs taking into account that REFORM and the Brexit parties are basically the same parties?
    I think at least some of them are, but this will tend to lead them astray in Tory-held seats where BXP didn't stand in 2019.

    But mostly the MRP approach uses the demographics of each seat, not the electoral history.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585

    Britain is not even joining the Single Market until some kind of arrangement on freedom of movement can be made.

    Which may be never.

    Having said that, clearly immigration is rising up the political agenda across Europe and a near-future EU may be amendable to qualifying freedom of movement somehow.

    The biggest problem with Free Movement is that if it ever returns everyone in Britain will flee
  • New article exploring the rise of tactical voting

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/labour-supporters-canvassing-lib-dems-push-tactical-voting

    However, PoliticsHome soon discovered that many of those milling around the beach were campaigning for the party in the area despite not describing themselves as Lib Dems.

    “I would describe myself as left-wing Labour,” local resident Christine told PoliticsHome. Christine, like most of the people gathered here, has been canvassing for the Lib Dems over the last few weeks.

    As a traditional Labour supporter on the left of the party, does she think the Lib Dems are actually now to the political left of Labour? “I think they are to be honest,” she replied, adding that she also perceived Ed Davey as “much more approachable” than Starmer in the election debates.


    This is why I’m still pretty bullish on the Lib Dems beating the Tories. I still think it’s value. The tactical vote this year is gonna far eclipse anything we’ve seen before - all the conditions are there for it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,525
    Leon said:

    The biggest problem with Free Movement is that if it ever returns everyone in Britain will flee
    I would like to have seen HS2...
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 981

    Oh, FocalData MRP is out

    https://x.com/mattsingh_/status/1805227899617710511?s=46

    LAB 450
    CON 110
    LD 50
    SNP 16
    REF 1
    GRN 1

    Time will tell if this is one of those which has Corbyn on 0.6% or something stupid in his seat which calls the rest of the model into question
    Damn tories survive on those numbers.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 981
    Leon said:

    The biggest problem with Free Movement is that if it ever returns everyone in Britain will flee
    Lol
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,608
    edited June 2024
    Nunu5 said:

    Are the MRPs taking into account that REFORM and the Brexit parties are basically the same parties?
    Yes, and the word "basically" isn't needed. It is exactly the same party.
  • Remember that MrEd/TheKitchenCabinet/MisterBedfrdshire is himself a Trumpian shill. So view his posts through that prism…
    I am not The Kitchen Cabinet
    viewcode said:

    IIUC TheKitchenCabinet and MisterBedfordshire are not the same person
    Correct. I am not Mr Ed either. I would need the Correct Horse Battery to be a talking horse.

    (For yhe avoidance of doubt I am not CorrectBatteryHorse either)
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,628

    Oh, FocalData MRP is out

    https://x.com/mattsingh_/status/1805227899617710511?s=46

    LAB 450
    CON 110
    LD 50
    SNP 16
    REF 1
    GRN 1

    Time will tell if this is one of those which has Corbyn on 0.6% or something stupid in his seat which calls the rest of the model into question
    Isn't it the way with MRPs that some of the individual seat predictions are a bit peculiar, nut the overall picture is pretty accurate?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,182
    edited June 2024
    Leon said:

    The biggest problem with Free Movement is that if it ever returns everyone in Britain will flee
    Well essentially, by numbers at least, Britain elected for FOM++++ in recent times.

    Changes made by Cleverly/Sunak are expected to cut inbound immigration numbers significantly, even if Cooper/Starmer do nothing.

    Starmer has pledged to reduce immigration but refused to concede a target.

    In an era of shrinking populations there is going to be a global race for youthful talent. How to balance that with the negative effects of unchecked mass migration, and the need to repair trading relations with Europe?

    That’s the debate one wants to hear…

    It’s definitely “one to watch”.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,879
    edited June 2024

    Oh, FocalData MRP is out

    https://x.com/mattsingh_/status/1805227899617710511?s=46

    LAB 450
    CON 110
    LD 50
    SNP 16
    REF 1
    GRN 1

    Time will tell if this is one of those which has Corbyn on 0.6% or something stupid in his seat which calls the rest of the model into question
    Some sighs of relief at CCHQ they remain over 100 seats I expect and well ahead of the LDs, although obviously still terrible, not apocalyptic at least.

    Great poll for Labour, 450 would be even higher than the number of MPs Blair won. OK for the LDs who are back to Ashdown and early Kennedy levels.

    Poor poll for Reform, only 1 seat, Clacton and not great for SNP either as they lose over half their seats
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Oh, FocalData MRP is out

    https://x.com/mattsingh_/status/1805227899617710511?s=46

    LAB 450
    CON 110
    LD 50
    SNP 16
    REF 1
    GRN 1

    Time will tell if this is one of those which has Corbyn on 0.6% or something stupid in his seat which calls the rest of the model into question
    Be interesting to trawl that once on the website, it's pretty in line with Ipsos and YG seats wise
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,956
    Nigelb said:

    After observing our experience of the last decade, who on earth would believe that ?

    The barriers to leaving or (re)joining are far more matters of practicality than pure legislation.
    Note I've said anything myself about our rejoining during today's discussion. I'm just noting merely that the prospect being raised seems to prompt a rash of irrationally definitive arguments in response.
    At the moment rejoining is never a thinkable prospect. What is thinkable within 5-10 years is a manifesto pledge to hold a referendum to get permission for the UK government to enter discussions about our relationships WRT EU/EEA/EFTA on condition that the full text of any proposed deal would be the subject of a second referendum.

    The Brexit referendum result has one fruitful outcome: No-one can believe that either the UK government nor the EU can 'fix' a referendum result with the UK, even if it can happen with so many other countries. So there is a chance of the process being worthy of trust.

    (Outcome: EFTA/EEA membership, as should have happened by about 2018.)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,182
    I love France to bits but CDG is so chaotically designed.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,608

    Oh, FocalData MRP is out

    https://x.com/mattsingh_/status/1805227899617710511?s=46

    LAB 450
    CON 110
    LD 50
    SNP 16
    REF 1
    GRN 1

    Time will tell if this is one of those which has Corbyn on 0.6% or something stupid in his seat which calls the rest of the model into question
    MRPs work in the same way. None of them can do much to successfully model Islington N. That's not a reason to dismiss their predictions more generally.

    My gut says Reform UK and the Greens will do better than 1 apiece. (My gut is not reliable and can't even cope with a bit of gluten, so DYOR.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,879
    ClippP said:

    I would hope not, young HY. Not if he is a member of the House of Lords.....
    His house is in the close, I didn't say he was in a care home
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Nunu5 said:

    Damn tories survive on those numbers.
    I am confident Greens will get more than 1

    The current trend of Reform % going up should mean they get more than 1 too
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,087
    Nunu5 said:

    Lol
    If the U.K. is so shit relative to Europe, why is it that people are paying savage organised crime syndicates the equivalent of the price of a house (in their home country) to get into the U.K. from France? By extremely (and obviously) dangerous routes, no less.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,153

    Isn't it the way with MRPs that some of the individual seat predictions are a bit peculiar, nut the overall picture is pretty accurate?
    Yes. You wouldn't expect an MRP to predict whether an independent candidate would win a specific seat. Most people with the same demographic as Islington live all over the country in seats where Corbyn is not a candidate.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,299
    edited June 2024

    If the U.K. is so shit relative to Europe, why is it that people are paying savage organised crime syndicates the equivalent of the price of a house (in their home country) to get into the U.K. from France? By extremely (and obviously) dangerous routes, no less.
    Obviously France is a third world country.

    They have oil too and weapons of mass destruction that could hit us within 45 minute too, we should invade.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,303
    HYUFD said:

    Some sighs of relief at CCHQ they remain over 100 seats I expect and well ahead of the LDs, although obviously still terrible, not apocalyptic at least.

    Great poll for Labour, 450 would be even higher than the number of MPs Blair won. OK for the LDs who are back to Ashdown and early Kennedy levels.

    Poor poll for Reform, only 1 seat, Clacton and not great for SNP either as they lose over half their seats
    It's not rational- it just follows from having eight fingers and two thumbs- but 100 feels like an important threshold. Above that, the Conservatives (just about) live to fight another day. Below that, even if they are still in second place, and the death spiral may have begun.

    But golly gosh, it would be a Terrible Night for the Tories. Probably hasn't really sunk in how terrible.
  • https://x.com/redfieldwilton/status/1805228129272963190?s=46

    Redfield poll of 10,000 people out at 5pm, looks like fieldwork will account for Farage Putin comments (but they might not have cut through entirely at time of asking?)

    Redfield poll 4 days ago:
    LAB 42 REF 19 CON 18 LIB 11 GRN 5
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Be interesting to trawl that once on the website, it's pretty in line with Ipsos and YG seats wise
    Have they given the implied VI yet?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,285

    Isn't it the way with MRPs that some of the individual seat predictions are a bit peculiar, nut the overall picture is pretty accurate?
    Yes, in that sense it's similar to the exit poll. Good at overall numbers, but doesn't mean each seat will be correctly forecast. But they balance each other out overall.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 981

    If the U.K. is so shit relative to Europe, why is it that people are paying savage organised crime syndicates the equivalent of the price of a house (in their home country) to get into the U.K. from France? By extremely (and obviously) dangerous routes, no less.
    Bloody stupid comparison. The UK accepts 98% of asylum claims that's why and most of Europe including France.

    British people retiring to the south of France or the Costa Del Sol are not escaping poverty and violence.

    (we do however need to reduce the rate of asylum granted back to what they were under Labour).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,879
    edited June 2024

    I am confident Greens will get more than 1

    The current trend of Reform % going up should mean they get more than 1 too
    In theory, in practice Reform canvass data accuracy and GOTV effort will likely be the worst of the main parties
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,087

    Obviously France is a third world country.

    They have oil too and weapons of mass destruction that could hit us within 45 minute too, we should invade.
    Hey, that’s my line.

    What are you? Some kind of pirate?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Have they given the implied VI yet?
    No it's not up on the site yet, I think there's a presentation ongoing somewhere
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,050
    @robbiehawkins__

    NEW: Former Secretary General of NATO George Robertson - who Farage has pointed to as supporting his view - tells
    @TomSwarbrick1
    Nigel Farage is talking "total nonsense".

    Says Farage + far right "cuddling up to Kremlin" - accuses him of "appeasement"

    https://x.com/robbiehawkins__/status/1805229265727750566
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,285
    "Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton

    🇬🇧 GENERAL ELECTION MEGA POLL!

    Over the weekend, we asked 10,000 respondents across Britain how they will vote on 4 July. 🗳️

    Where do things stand with just 10 days to go until polling day?

    Follow us
    @redfieldwilton
    to see the results at 5pm... ⏰"

    https://x.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1805228129272963190
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    MRPs work in the same way. None of them can do much to successfully model Islington N. That's not a reason to dismiss their predictions more generally.

    My gut says Reform UK and the Greens will do better than 1 apiece. (My gut is not reliable and can't even cope with a bit of gluten, so DYOR.)
    If Reform get to high teens they'll win a handful at least
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,956

    Oh, FocalData MRP is out

    https://x.com/mattsingh_/status/1805227899617710511?s=46

    LAB 450
    CON 110
    LD 50
    SNP 16
    REF 1
    GRN 1

    Time will tell if this is one of those which has Corbyn on 0.6% or something stupid in his seat which calls the rest of the model into question
    That we are in uncharted territory is shown by the fact that these figures look pretty good for the Tories. For myself, I would rather go with Meeks's guess of 75.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,913
    edited June 2024
    MattW said:

    Yep - I agree it's a can or worms, which I think is why New Labour only went so far.

    AIUI the Scottish setup has been quite effective, so that is a good, but maybe partial due to population density etc, model.

    The RoW network is very badly neglected, with some bizarre general practices such as newly created publicly funded multiuser paths not being dedicated as RoWs. The current Govt has been as chaotic about this, as they are about everything else - with for example Theresa Coffey being a patsy for the landowner lobby.

    My preference is for the role of LHAs to be broadened to be Public Highway bodies, rather than "Roads" Bodies with nods to other things, and public highway policing to become a statutory responsibility of police forces.

    Access land in England is a mess - there are hundreds of areas of access land everywhere which cannot be reached without trespassing to get there. There's a good video by Paul Whitewick on that issue here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0GiPtOHI7U

    It all seems ripe for a tidy up, and it will be popular with pretty much all of Sir Keir Starmer's support base. I don't see a political downside for him.
    Agree, a tidy up would be good.

    I'm not averse to a bit of trespass myself depending on the circumstances but I always do so responsibly. :smile:

    A number of RoWs round here are impassible to sane people (very high vegetation, rutted and swampy) but also have very rare plants on them which would not benefit from them being cleared and surfaced.

    We were asked to collect some seeds for Kew from one.

    Poor maintainance of signage and stiles / gates is endemic, though, and that could be fixed with a few quid.

  • It's not rational- it just follows from having eight fingers and two thumbs- but 100 feels like an important threshold. Above that, the Conservatives (just about) live to fight another day. Below that, even if they are still in second place, and the death spiral may have begun.

    But golly gosh, it would be a Terrible Night for the Tories. Probably hasn't really sunk in how terrible.
    Actually, it probably doesn't realistically matter much.

    Labour is going to be in power for about a Scottish Generation. About 13-18 years. Then the Tories will return.

    Whether it be 5, 50, 100, 150 or 200 seats probably won't affect that calculation much.

    I hate going too much off precedent, but whatever precedent you look at its about the same

    1997 style defeat? 13 years to regain Downing Street.
    Reverse-1931 style defeat? 14 years to regain Downing Street.
    Canada 1993? 13 years before Stephen Harper's Conservatives won the election.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    HYUFD said:

    His house is in the close, I didn't say he was in a care home
    He is a peer, is he not? So ...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,285

    Have they given the implied VI yet?
    Someone claims it's Lab 41%, Con 23%, but I couldn't find verification.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,087
    Nunu5 said:

    Bloody stupid comparison. The UK accepts 98% of asylum claims that's why and most of Europe including France.

    British people retiring to the south of France or the Costa Del Sol are not escaping poverty and violence.

    (we do however need to reduce the rate of asylum granted back to what they were under Labour).
    The people on boats only claim asylum when caught. They are trying to join the black economy here.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,569
    edited June 2024

    I love France to bits but CDG is so chaotically designed.

    I shake my head at you.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,879

    Actually, it probably doesn't realistically matter much.

    Labour is going to be in power for about a Scottish Generation. About 13-18 years. Then the Tories will return.

    Whether it be 5, 50, 100, 150 or 200 seats probably won't affect that calculation much.

    I hate going too much off precedent, but whatever precedent you look at its about the same

    1997 style defeat? 13 years to regain Downing Street.
    Reverse-1931 style defeat? 14 years to regain Downing Street.
    Canada 1993? 13 years before Stephen Harper's Conservatives won the election.
    Except Harper was ex Reform, the Conservatives that won in Canada in 2006 were not the same as the Tories that lost in 1993.

    Indeed Reform's successor party the Canadian Alliance effectively took over the Canadian Tories in 2003 to create the new Conservative Party of Canada which formed a government under Harper
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,182

    I shake my head at you.
    You need to get out of Leeds more.
  • HYUFD said:

    In theory, in practice Reform canvass data accuracy and GOTV effort will likely be the worst of the main parties
    I think what Reform needed to really stick the landing, aside from Farage not making the dumb Putin comments, was one more debate appearance nearer the end of the campaign.

    And also, a concrete memorable policy that wasn’t immigration related, but that won over more moderate voters instead. The £20k personal allowance could have been that but they needed something stronger.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    No it's not up on the site yet, I think there's a presentation ongoing somewhere
    Twitter reckons 3pm
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,569

    You need to get out of Leeds more.
    Leeds?

    I am a globalist.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,831

    Oh, FocalData MRP is out

    https://x.com/mattsingh_/status/1805227899617710511?s=46

    LAB 450
    CON 110
    LD 50
    SNP 16
    REF 1
    GRN 1

    Time will tell if this is one of those which has Corbyn on 0.6% or something stupid in his seat which calls the rest of the model into question
    Lab gets a landslide and a decade in power, Con survive and have something to rebuild from, Lib returns to being the third biggest party, Green hang on to their seat and Nige arrives in Westminster on how own and resigns Clacton to peruse a lucrative career in America by Christmas.

    Everyone's happy/relieved? Except for the SNP?
  • If the U.K. is so shit relative to Europe, why is it that people are paying savage organised crime syndicates the equivalent of the price of a house (in their home country) to get into the U.K. from France? By extremely (and obviously) dangerous routes, no less.
    This question has already been answered a zillion times. If you have connections in the UK, speak some English and thus have a chance of earning a living there, you'd obviously want to go there. It has little to do with the objective merits or otherwise of the UK and France. This is quite obvious to anyone who takes a moment to think of the migrants as actual people.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,153
    Last night a Russian missile hit a warehouse in Odesa. Did this warehouse hold Ukrainian drones? Ammunition for HIMARS? Other vital military equipment?

    No. It was a warehouse for a grocery chain, from which food and beverages were distributed.

    A few nights previously Ukrainian missiles hit a warehouse and training complex in Russia. It's now reported that they destroyed an estimated 110 drones of various explosive and reconnaissance types, as well as causing other damage.

    The Russian targeting remains bafflingly erratic and ineffective.
  • This question has already been answered a zillion times. If you have connections in the UK, speak some English and thus have a chance of earning a living there, you'd obviously want to go there. It has little to do with the objective merits or otherwise of the UK and France. This is quite obvious to anyone who takes a moment to think of the migrants as actual people.
    So you're saying its just regular migration desires which should go through regular processes the same as everyone else and nothing to do with asylum then?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Booked a film at 4.10pm and now R&W have a MEGA POLL at 5pm rather than a poll

    Life is full of decisions may book a later screening
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,608
    Nunu5 said:

    Bloody stupid comparison. The UK accepts 98% of asylum claims that's why and most of Europe including France.

    British people retiring to the south of France or the Costa Del Sol are not escaping poverty and violence.

    (we do however need to reduce the rate of asylum granted back to what they were under Labour).
    The UK does not accept 98% of asylum claims. Don't make stuff up. https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/ has figures This says, "In 2023, 33% were refused at initial decision (not counting withdrawals). The annual refusal rate was highest in 2004 (88%) and lowest in recent times in 2022 (24%)."
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Actually, it probably doesn't realistically matter much.

    Labour is going to be in power for about a Scottish Generation. About 13-18 years. Then the Tories will return.

    Whether it be 5, 50, 100, 150 or 200 seats probably won't affect that calculation much.

    I hate going too much off precedent, but whatever precedent you look at its about the same

    1997 style defeat? 13 years to regain Downing Street.
    Reverse-1931 style defeat? 14 years to regain Downing Street.
    Canada 1993? 13 years before Stephen Harper's Conservatives won the election.
    I think if we should learn anything from Johnson's large majority turning into a massive majority for Labour within a single parliament - it's that a large majority is not necessarily something that is slowly whittled away anymore and may be something that violently swings. I think many here have noted that whilst Labour are doing well in the polls that is more down to Tory collapse than any specific interest in what Labour is selling. Should they fail to make the changes needed to make people feel more secure in their lives, I could imagine a situation where they too get slung out in a rather undignified manner - especially if the Tory bogeyman is diminished and a decent fight on the left is put up by the Greens or LDs.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Booked a film at 4.10pm and now R&W have a MEGA POLL at 5pm rather than a poll

    Life is full of decisions may book a later screening

    Every Monday Redfield has been a Mega poll in the campaign , just a bigger sample
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,204
    Andy_JS said:

    This poll is the perfect illustration of what's going on at this election. The reason the Tories are down so much overall is because of a swing to Ref, but because Farage's party is much less popular in London, the Tories are correspondingly doing much better. On the other hand, Lab +6 is pretty much the same as the rest of the country.
    Here's the London implied %s from various MRPs.

    Electoral Calculus Yougov NS IPSOS

    LAB 50.90% 48.30% 52.54% 54.27%
    CON 16.19% 16.14% 16.04% 19.13%
    RFM 12.53% 10.11% 8.94% 7.46%
    LIB 12.11% 12.65% 13.70% 9.34%
    GRN 6.49% 9.82% 5.44% 7.57%
    OTH 1.78% 2.97% 3.34% 2.24%
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,608

    The people on boats only claim asylum when caught. They are trying to join the black economy here.
    Government figures say very few coming over on small boats are disappearing into the black economy. Most claim asylum.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,143
    Fuck me.

    I just got a fake phishing email with a Keir Starmer (not) joke at the end of it from CCHQ. Looks like it was written by a 12-year old, and, even if I agree with it's central premise that he's being deceitful on tax, it's still a cringeworthy begging letter.

    Please. Make it stop.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,690

    I love France to bits but CDG is so chaotically designed.

    Designed? They've basically flung things together in a way that worked at the time with no thought to the future.

    I used to have to go land side via the staff lane to make a connection because the airside transfer from the terminal I landed at to the terminal I needed to be at took 50 minutes and I had a 60 minute connection...

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,153
    GIN1138 said:

    Lab gets a landslide and a decade in power, Con survive and have something to rebuild from, Lib returns to being the third biggest party, Green hang on to their seat and Nige arrives in Westminster on how own and resigns Clacton to peruse a lucrative career in America by Christmas.

    Everyone's happy/relieved? Except for the SNP?
    16 for the SNP is still a lot more than the 6 MPs they had in 2010. I think it's just about in, "not as bad as it might have been," territory for them.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,336

    Fuck me.

    I just got a fake phishing email with a Keir Starmer (not) joke at the end of it from CCHQ. Looks like it was written by a 12-year old, and, even if I agree with it's central premise that he's being deceitful on tax, it's still a cringeworthy begging letter.

    Please. Make it stop.

    Only a week and a bit left. Then we can enjoy the years of reconstruction.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    I am confident Greens will get more than 1

    The current trend of Reform % going up should mean they get more than 1 too
    The thing about the Greens is I keep hearing and seeing positive things about the campaigns in Bristol, Waveny and Herefordshire - but I'm also used to these positive noises and nothing ever materialising - and it being very localised and therefore not really noticeable from the national polling.

    I'm sure we'll have more than 1 seat - but where we'll gain and how many I'm still not clear on...
  • GIN1138 said:

    Lab gets a landslide and a decade in power, Con survive and have something to rebuild from, Lib returns to being the third biggest party, Green hang on to their seat and Nige arrives in Westminster on how own and resigns Clacton to peruse a lucrative career in America by Christmas.

    Everyone's happy/relieved? Except for the SNP?
    If you are the Lib Dems right now you do not take 50 seats and 3rd.

    Yes, it won’t be easy to overturn the Tories and form the opposition - but it’s certainly in play now - and doing so could absolutely transform the future of the Lib Dems. Whereas 50 seats doesn’t really get you anywhere that 30-40 wouldn’t.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,087

    This question has already been answered a zillion times. If you have connections in the UK, speak some English and thus have a chance of earning a living there, you'd obviously want to go there. It has little to do with the objective merits or otherwise of the UK and France. This is quite obvious to anyone who takes a moment to think of the migrants as actual people.
    It’s more to with actually getting a job. Plenty of people working in the U.K. don’t speak very much, if any, English.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,789

    Fuck me.

    I just got a fake phishing email with a Keir Starmer (not) joke at the end of it from CCHQ. Looks like it was written by a 12-year old, and, even if I agree with it's central premise that he's being deceitful on tax, it's still a cringeworthy begging letter.

    Please. Make it stop.

    Can some party activists not launch a coup at CCHQ? March in, round the idiots up and expel them from the building?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,285
    edited June 2024
    Last time I was at CDG I remember coming down an escalator into a holding area that was far too small, and since the escalator was crowded with passengers it almost caused a dangerous crush at the bottom. Very poor design. They may have improved it since then.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Partial implied VI for Focaldata MRP

    Lab 41
    Con 23

    Other shares not out yet
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,182

    Fuck me.

    I just got a fake phishing email with a Keir Starmer (not) joke at the end of it from CCHQ. Looks like it was written by a 12-year old, and, even if I agree with it's central premise that he's being deceitful on tax, it's still a cringeworthy begging letter.

    Please. Make it stop.

    At this stage, the only people voting Tory are doing so in wilful defiance of Rishi “Danger” Sunak, James “Two Brains” Forsyth, and Isaac “Hannibal” Levido.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,879
    edited June 2024
    GIN1138 said:

    Lab gets a landslide and a decade in power, Con survive and have something to rebuild from, Lib returns to being the third biggest party, Green hang on to their seat and Nige arrives in Westminster on how own and resigns Clacton to peruse a lucrative career in America by Christmas.

    Everyone's happy/relieved? Except for the SNP?
    Even some SNP. Kate Forbes would be secretly delighted with that as it makes her heir apparent when Swinney likely loses the next Scottish Parliament election on a similar SNP to SLab swing too and has to follow Yousaf and resign
  • So you're saying its just regular migration desires which should go through regular processes the same as everyone else and nothing to do with asylum then?
    It's quite possible to be both fleeing persecution and looking for the optimum destination. Consider: if you were forced to flee the UK, would you be happy to stay in any random, albeit safe, country, or would you try to get to a place where you already had some connection?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,479

    It’s more to with actually getting a job. Plenty of people working in the U.K. don’t speak very much, if any, English.
    It's also to do with actually looking for a job as well.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,285

    This question has already been answered a zillion times. If you have connections in the UK, speak some English and thus have a chance of earning a living there, you'd obviously want to go there. It has little to do with the objective merits or otherwise of the UK and France. This is quite obvious to anyone who takes a moment to think of the migrants as actual people.
    Tautology. The first reasons you give are objective merits.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,879
    Carnyx said:

    He is a peer, is he not? So ...
    The lunches and claret are rather better in the Lords than your average care home...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,156

    Leeds?

    I am a globalist.
    You've been to York!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,143

    At this stage, the only people voting Tory are doing so in wilful defiance of Rishi “Danger” Sunak, James “Two Brains” Forsyth, and Isaac “Hannibal” Levido.
    I really rated James Forsyth as a political journalist.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,285

    Partial implied VI for Focaldata MRP

    Lab 41
    Con 23

    Other shares not out yet

    Do you have verification for this other than the @stefanstern twitter/X account?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,834
    edited June 2024

    So you're saying its just regular migration desires which should go through regular processes the same as everyone else and nothing to do with asylum then?
    It's an interesting question this, because I think our failure to understand humans as 3 dimensional beings means we put people into mutually exclusive groups like bona fide asylum seekers, economic migrants, illegals etc. In reality people will have a mixture of motivations for leaving a country and going elsewhere. Fear of violence might well be combined with hope for a better life for their children.

    I'd take as illustrations of this some of the asylum seekers my parents spend time with at the reception centre near their village. One family: Iranian, 2 parents and a young daughter. They left because the husband was imprisoned for a couple of years for blasphemy-related crimes and beaten up a few times by regime thugs, but they are also intensely ambitious for their daughter who by all accounts is a bit of a child prodigy. She will go far, and will have opportunities here that she would never have had in Iran.

    They came across in a small boat as that was the only viable option, though nowhere near the cheapest. They first had to get out of Iran without the authorities noticing. Why come to the UK? Because they had relatives here. Could they have fled to Turkey or Azerbaijan or Armenia and just stayed there? Probably, but the new life would be a very different one, quite possibly under canvas.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    viewcode said:

    You've been to York!
    and Manchester and some of the posher parts of Sheffield
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,303

    Every Monday Redfield has been a Mega poll in the campaign , just a bigger sample
    This week's Mr Redifeld and Mr Wilton sketch is brought to us by Hugh Paddick and Kenneth Williams:

    JULIAN REDFIELD: We're anticipating an enormous mega poll this afternoon, Mr Horne.

    SANDY WILTON: His name's Vladimir, always pops round when he's over from Gdańsk.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,182
    Andy_JS said:

    Last time I was at CDG I remember coming down an escalator into a holding area that was far too small, and since the escalator was crowded with passengers it almost caused a dangerous crush at the bottom. Very poor design. They may have improved it since then.

    They haven’t.

    It suffers from a general French propensity to “design for design’s sake” in defiance of actual utility. This, despite a great tradition in engineering.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 981
    RobD said:

    Only a week and a bit left. Then we can enjoy the years of reconstruction.
    or total destruction.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,153
    148grss said:

    The thing about the Greens is I keep hearing and seeing positive things about the campaigns in Bristol, Waveny and Herefordshire - but I'm also used to these positive noises and nothing ever materialising - and it being very localised and therefore not really noticeable from the national polling.

    I'm sure we'll have more than 1 seat - but where we'll gain and how many I'm still not clear on...
    If the Greens ended up with zero seats I don't think it would be that surprising - loss of the Lucas personal vote in Brighton, plus the problems with the council, falling just short in Bristol Central being a harsh lesson in the difference between local and national elections, t'other seats demonstrating that Tory voters are a bit more conservative about changing their view then they often seem.

    Two seats might be more likely than zero, but I wouldn't rule zero out.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,831
    edited June 2024

    If you are the Lib Dems right now you do not take 50 seats and 3rd.

    Yes, it won’t be easy to overturn the Tories and form the opposition - but it’s certainly in play now - and doing so could absolutely transform the future of the Lib Dems. Whereas 50 seats doesn’t really get you anywhere that 30-40 wouldn’t.
    Considering what happened to the Lib-Dems in 2015, 50 seats is pretty decent.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,156
    148grss said:

    The thing about the Greens is I keep hearing and seeing positive things about the campaigns in Bristol, Waveny and Herefordshire - but I'm also used to these positive noises and nothing ever materialising - and it being very localised and therefore not really noticeable from the national polling.

    I'm sure we'll have more than 1 seat - but where we'll gain and how many I'm still not clear on...
    My head canon says between 0 and 4 Green seats. They are wildly overperforming but I think are slowly shedding support: peaked too early. We will see.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 981
    GIN1138 said:

    Lab gets a landslide and a decade in power, Con survive and have something to rebuild from, Lib returns to being the third biggest party, Green hang on to their seat and Nige arrives in Westminster on how own and resigns Clacton to peruse a lucrative career in America by Christmas.

    Everyone's happy/relieved? Except for the SNP?
    Don't think we should predict a decade in power for Labour just yet, even if they win a majority of a zillion. The electorate have been incredibly volatile these last few elections. The Tories won a 80 seat majority just 5 years ago after all, and now.........
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,156

    I really rated James Forsyth as a political journalist.
    So did I, but his utility was solely down to his friend and familial connections. Post-Sunak he will find it difficult.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    edited June 2024

    You don't believe in net zero, do you?

    If we have net zero, why do we need "equitable distribution of resources" for climate reasons, considering we can scale up or down consumption/production and anything times zero equals zero.

    If we don't have net zero, how do we stop climate change?

    If you were serious about tackling climate change, you wouldn't believe any of the garbage you're spouting.
    I mean, I don't think globally we're going to get to net zero because many of the people saying we will are hoping carbon capture works better than it currently does - atm efficiency is too low to depend on it. So to get to net zero it will not just be countries sequestering any carbon output to equal zero (as the tech to sequester is currently not good enough), it will require a reduction in emissions. Reduction in emissions will require a reduction in production and consumption. If the logic of growth for the average worker is "you get a smaller slice, but we'll grow the pie", the logic of static growth or even degrowth for the average worker should be "you get a bigger slice, but we're slowly shrinking the pie". That will have to come via wealth redistribution - those who have a huge amount will have to give up their hoarded resources for the benefits of those who have less or none.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,182
    Sheffield is the one large UK city I haven’t been to.
    In my imagination it is the rocky, sylvan “Gateway to the Peaks”. A kind of Yorkshire Grenoble, with the iconic Park Hill flats, the storied Peace Garden, and the world-famous Documentary Festival. Small children ferry bottles of Henderson’s Relish from chip shop to chip shop.

    In reality it’s probably a shit-hole.
  • It's quite possible to be both fleeing persecution and looking for the optimum destination. Consider: if you were forced to flee the UK, would you be happy to stay in any random, albeit safe, country, or would you try to get to a place where you already had some connection?
    What someone wants and what someone gets are often not the same thing.

    If someone is forced to seek asylum then yes any random, albeit safe, country provides that.

    If someone desires to migrate to the UK specifically that then desire should be processed the same as every other potential migrant who specifically desires to migrate here, for whatever reason.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Andy_JS said:

    Do you have verification for this other than the @stefanstern twitter/X account?
    Its not official but its from a couple of other accounts on Twitter not that one

    Gentlemen of the North being one
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,085
    viewcode said:

    So did I, but his utility was solely down to his friend and familial connections. Post-Sunak he will find it difficult.
    Really? He was a thing in political journalism long before Sunak was a thing in politics and before Allegra Stratton was his wife. He set up Coffee House in the speccy for example in 2007 and editor in 2009.
  • Fuck me.

    I just got a fake phishing email with a Keir Starmer (not) joke at the end of it from CCHQ. Looks like it was written by a 12-year old, and, even if I agree with it's central premise that he's being deceitful on tax, it's still a cringeworthy begging letter.

    Please. Make it stop.

    Isn't that illegal?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617

    Sheffield is the one large UK city I haven’t been to.
    In my imagination it is the rocky, sylvan “Gateway to the Peaks”. A kind of Yorkshire Grenoble, with the iconic Park Hill flats, the storied Peace Garden, and the world-famous Documentary Festival. Small children ferry bottles of Henderson’s Relish from chip shop to chip shop.

    In reality it’s probably a shit-hole.

    Nice steel museums, actually; when I went one of the had leaflets for a selfguided walk to see the local steelmaking heritage.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    If the Greens ended up with zero seats I don't think it would be that surprising - loss of the Lucas personal vote in Brighton, plus the problems with the council, falling just short in Bristol Central being a harsh lesson in the difference between local and national elections, t'other seats demonstrating that Tory voters are a bit more conservative about changing their view then they often seem.

    Two seats might be more likely than zero, but I wouldn't rule zero out.
    But again, everything I'm hearing from canvas returns in Brighton - where they are specifically talking to typical Green voters and Labour voters - is that we're performing better than usual because those voters in Brighton who typically vote Labour are more willing to vote Green this election. But that could easily be the blinders of partisan campaigning
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,450
    Andy_JS said:

    This poll is the perfect illustration of what's going on at this election. The reason the Tories are down so much overall is because of a swing to Ref, but because Farage's party is much less popular in London, the Tories are correspondingly doing much better. On the other hand, Lab +6 is pretty much the same as the rest of the country.
    My own view that Harrow East will be a Conservative hold, due to its ethnic make up.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    edited June 2024
    HYUFD said:

    The lunches and claret are rather better in the Lords than your average care home...
    But irrelevant to whether he can vote in the election. Which I'm sure was ClippP's point.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,831
    Nunu5 said:

    Don't think we should predict a decade in power for Labour just yet, even if they win a majority of a zillion. The electorate have been incredibly volatile these last few elections. The Tories won a 80 seat majority just 5 years ago after all, and now.........
    Yes, you're right.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,450

    Sheffield is the one large UK city I haven’t been to.
    In my imagination it is the rocky, sylvan “Gateway to the Peaks”. A kind of Yorkshire Grenoble, with the iconic Park Hill flats, the storied Peace Garden, and the world-famous Documentary Festival. Small children ferry bottles of Henderson’s Relish from chip shop to chip shop.

    In reality it’s probably a shit-hole.

    Parts of it are. But, the Hallam constituency is a place of incredible attractiveness and wealth, leading up to some outstandingly beautiful countryside.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    Charles de Gaulle is a shite airport. Luton is superior

    Heathrow is far superior
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,450
    148grss said:

    I mean, I don't think globally we're going to get to net zero because many of the people saying we will are hoping carbon capture works better than it currently does - atm efficiency is too low to depend on it. So to get to net zero it will not just be countries sequestering any carbon output to equal zero (as the tech to sequester is currently not good enough), it will require a reduction in emissions. Reduction in emissions will require a reduction in production and consumption. If the logic of growth for the average worker is "you get a smaller slice, but we'll grow the pie", the logic of static growth or even degrowth for the average worker should be "you get a bigger slice, but we're slowly shrinking the pie". That will have to come via wealth redistribution - those who have a huge amount will have to give up their hoarded resources for the benefits of those who have less or none.
    A shrinking pie means violent conflict over resources.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    I’m staring at the BIGGEST THING EVER ERECTED BY NEOLITHIC MAN. Unfortunately it’s broken
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,780

    Sheffield is the one large UK city I haven’t been to.
    In my imagination it is the rocky, sylvan “Gateway to the Peaks”. A kind of Yorkshire Grenoble, with the iconic Park Hill flats, the storied Peace Garden, and the world-famous Documentary Festival. Small children ferry bottles of Henderson’s Relish from chip shop to chip shop.

    In reality it’s probably a shit-hole.

    Sheffield is the loveliest of the UK's industrial big cities. I fell in love with it as soon as I first visited.
    Of course, it helps that I was coming from the west. So you arrive in the city through a succession of very pleasant stone built suburbs. More than any other city, Sheffield is sectorised, with the best areas in the west and south west. But it means you can, if you want, walk from the Peak District to the city centre in about an hour and get the impression of the pleasantest and best-ordered city in the country. It's all pleasantly prosperous.
    Of course, this is a very partial view and you get quite a different impression if you arrive from the South East (still not actually grotty, but definitely not prosperous).

    The city centre used to be a little grim, but has regenerated itself better than pretty much anywhere else in the country and is now very pleasant indeed, albeit a little lacking in retail opportunities for a city of its size.

This discussion has been closed.