I think the crucial point was that the gambler and his assistant contrived the situation so that they had an edge, rather than the house, in what was otherwise a game of chance. They were not merely passively observing the cards (which would be the case with card-counting, another technique which casinos have to watch out for but which, I believe, is lawful.)
I assume PBers are familiar with the book (or the movie) 21, the tale of a group of MIT students who took millions in Vegas and Atlantic City by counting cards as a team.
They are part of the reason casinos now use continuous shuffle
Remember it well.
I first learned about card-counting in connection with a chess player, Larry Byrne, who used to clean up in the casinos between matches many years ago. Chess players tend to have the kind of mental skills that enables them to remember cards and calculate odds quickly. In those days, the casinos used six packs of cards per table. The MIT team demonstrated that that was nowhere near enough.
I seem to recall that when the Monaco authorities found out what the kids were up to, they made them an offer that simply couldn't be refused.
If the current trends continue, a result like this isn't out of the question, however it would only take a swing of a further 2% to Reform to wipe out the Labour majority entirely so it would be very volatile.
Notable where almost all those Reform seats are. Not in the Red Wall as repeatedly asserted.
Very white, very Leave, relatively poor - these would be the criteria for Reform seat targeting, I'd have thought.
This kind of projection demonstrates how models like Electoral Calculus break down if fed very extreme inputs. Most of Eastern England, certain run down coastal areas notwithstanding, is categorically not poor, and vast swathes of it going Farageiste even with RefUK on a quarter of the popular vote are implausible.
Sounds depressingly like the old British National Front!
Yes, I remember copious NF signs in Margtte in the early '80s, still in my teens.
Clacton is the Brighton and Margate of 40 years ago.
If the current trends continue, a result like this isn't out of the question, however it would only take a swing of a further 2% to Reform to wipe out the Labour majority entirely so it would be very volatile.
Notable where almost all those Reform seats are. Not in the Red Wall as repeatedly asserted.
Very white, very Leave, relatively poor - these would be the criteria for Reform seat targeting, I'd have thought.
This kind of projection demonstrates how models like Electoral Calculus break down if fed very extreme inputs. Most of Eastern England, certain run down coastal areas notwithstanding, is categorically not poor, and vast swathes of it going Farageiste even with RefUK on a quarter of the popular vote are implausible.
It is very hard to model. But 25% could bring them lots of seats and if so I'd expect a cluster in that region. However I agree it almost certainly won't be happening.
I think the crucial point was that the gambler and his assistant contrived the situation so that they had an edge, rather than the house, in what was otherwise a game of chance. They were not merely passively observing the cards (which would be the case with card-counting, another technique which casinos have to watch out for but which, I believe, is lawful.)
I assume PBers are familiar with the book (or the movie) 21, the tale of a group of MIT students who took millions in Vegas and Atlantic City by counting cards as a team.
They are part of the reason casinos now use continuous shuffle
Remember it well.
I first learned about card-counting in connection with a chess player, Larry Byrne, who used to clean up in the casinos between matches many years ago. Chess players tend to have the kind of mental skills that enables them to remember cards and calculate odds quickly. In those days, the casinos used six packs of cards per table. The MIT team demonstrated that that was nowhere near enough.
I seem to recall that when the Monaco authorities found out what the kids were up to, they made them an offer that simply couldn't be refused.
For those interesting in some cheating the casino stories, this is quite a good YouTube channel retelling some you may not of heard of.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
What if the new regime were to bring the CGT rates in to line with income tax, so (roughly) 0 for disposals in a year up to 12.5K, 20% on the 12.5 to 50K part and 40% above that -- would that change your calculations? I guess it depends whether your capital gain is in a single asset (like those business owners cashing out) or if it's in investments you'd be happy holding for the longer term and gradually drawing down as income.
My guess is most would not be in the "making an immediate one off seven figure capital gain in a single year" boat.
Imagine, for example, buying 10k of nvda in 2014 for $0.48 and still having it 10 years later now it's trading around $130. You would have approx £1m in unrealized gains and, most likely, a very unbalanced portfolio you were seeking to de risk, especially if you think tech/AI stocks are in a bubble. So quite possible you would want to sell the whole lot in one go.
I have considered my options re my own portfolio and "derisking the lot into old-man dividend stocks asap" is the right answer for me.
Ultimately the potential switch from 20% to 40% tax isn't just a tax rise, it's a huge shock that will have a major impact on people's behaviour. If (when) the government suddenly implements a tax change that makes it cheaper for me to take a five year holiday than carry on working and paying tax in the UK, the laffer curve is well and truly in effect here and tax take will be down.
If I'd put 10k into nvda a decade ago and never sold it then I would consider that a massive unearned and very lucky windfall. I would have no issues with the taxman taking the same percentage of that as they took of my salary. But as I say, I don't think that's going to be the common case. Most stocks don't 200x in value like that and most people aren't heavily invested in single stocks.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
Go away then. Go be morose in Dubai or the UAE or Saudi or Monaco. You've done your bit and taken your share. Hand your passport in and live a new unmoored life as a tax exile unencumbered by social norms. You could even meet up with our resident shit and chat about the wrongs of CGT.
Just don't come back if you need a new hip or your liver stops working or a Gulf sheikh acting in rational self interest has confiscated your cash.
I’ve probably paid more in tax to the UK than you’ve earned in total
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
What's the big moan for? Just take your 5 year holiday. Sounds great.
There seems to be a bit of an air of f##k business / rich people creeping in. Haven't we already had enough of that over the past 5 years?
Every time there's a whiff of a Labour government some of the rich threaten to up sticks and relocate away. It's nothing new. Not that many actually do. But I don't see why we can't criticise their lack of patriotism; they're just sore losers. If they loved their country, they'd stay. And if they're not happy with their tax rates, they're more than welcome to campaign for a change of government.
There seems to be a bit of an air of f##k business / rich people creeping in. Haven't we already had enough of that over the past 5 years?
It is the excesses of large corporations (financial and behavioural) that have caused this.
However it will likely be the small entrepreneurs who get kicked as extracting money out of the large corporations is much harder.
Yes, I have made this point a number of times. Its a serious issue and it is also stopping small businesses becoming medium sized ones. Our economy has become terribly imbalanced by large mega corporations and then 1000s and 1000s of tiny ones. The problem is with the focus on trying to get more out of the mega corps, medium businesses in particular get hit with more and more turn over taxes, rather than on profit, because we know mega corps can play the globalised game. It also is massively disincentives small businesses getting any bigger as then they increasingly run into this and all the extra paperwork that will be coming down the pipeline with race equality pay reporting etc.
As I said, its a really tricky problem that many western countries are struggling with.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
What's the big moan for? Just take your 5 year holiday. Sounds great.
Yep - off you go. I expect when you discover the modern requirements to actually avoid UK tax you will probably not be able to achieve it anyway...
Polling due tonight looks like at least Savanta for the Sunday Telegraph teased with 'let's just say there's been some movement' (was Reforms lowest and one of the Tories and Labour better ones last time) Should be a Deltapoll in the Mail, huge Lab lead last time Opinium in the Observer will be their first to constituency prompt in this GE
There seems to be a bit of an air of f##k business / rich people creeping in. Haven't we already had enough of that over the past 5 years?
Every time there's a whiff of a Labour government some of the rich threaten to up sticks and relocate away. It's nothing new. Not that many actually do. But I don't see why we can't criticise their lack of patriotism; they're just sore losers. If they loved their country, they'd stay. And if they're not happy with their tax rates, they're more than welcome to campaign for a change of government.
I think there's often an air of spoiling the Lefties' fun: you may get your socialist government but the massive downside is that you lose me!
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
Go away then. Go be morose in Dubai or the UAE or Saudi or Monaco. You've done your bit and taken your share. Hand your passport in and live a new unmoored life as a tax exile unencumbered by social norms. You could even meet up with our resident shit and chat about the wrongs of CGT.
Just don't come back if you need a new hip or your liver stops working or a Gulf sheikh acting in rational self interest has confiscated your cash.
I have already contributed more, via income tax, and cgt, in my 40s than most people will contribute in a lifetime. And I'm more than happy to continue paying 20% on my investments. Which, again, are made on the back of income that's already been taxed at 40%. Perhaps I should have just bought a giant flat screen telly and a range rover like most of my contemporaries instead of daring to invest my money.
If what you're saying is you don't want that money, then yes, I'm more than happy to eff off out of the country and go somewhere else.
The amount of money I save will more than pay for a hip replacement - which, by the way, most middle class retirees are paying for our of pocket in the UK anyway given nhs waiting lists.
I wish the sheik the best of luck confiscating the wealth I hold in the crown dependencies. The UK, of course, is no stranger to loopholes and global tax avoidance.
I'm asking to pay a sensible rate of tax. Not a punitive one.
Smells distinctly of 1970s "tax the rich till the pips squeak" in here today, and we all know how that one worked out last time it was tried.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
Go away then. Go be morose in Dubai or the UAE or Saudi or Monaco. You've done your bit and taken your share. Hand your passport in and live a new unmoored life as a tax exile unencumbered by social norms. You could even meet up with our resident shit and chat about the wrongs of CGT.
Just don't come back if you need a new hip or your liver stops working or a Gulf sheikh acting in rational self interest has confiscated your cash.
You think you get free hips and livers here any more? Dream on
Polling due tonight looks like at least Savanta for the Sunday Telegraph teased with 'let's just say there's been some movement' (was Reforms lowest and one of the Tories and Labour better ones last time) Should be a Deltapoll in the Mail, huge Lab lead last time Opinium in the Observer will be their first to constituency prompt in this GE
Constituency prompting usually less good for Lab/Con so could be interesting
Polling due tonight looks like at least Savanta for the Sunday Telegraph teased with 'let's just say there's been some movement' (was Reforms lowest and one of the Tories and Labour better ones last time) Should be a Deltapoll in the Mail, huge Lab lead last time Opinium in the Observer will be their first to constituency prompt in this GE
Feast after famine !
I'll have to prepare my bib, like the Neapolitan men I've seen gorging on Bolognese.
Another issue the UK has a particular problem, start-ups.
"how undergraduates at top US universities start companies at more than 5x the rate of their British-educated peers. Oxford is ranked 50th in the world, while Cambridge is 61st. Imperial just makes the list at #100. I have been thinking a lot about why this is. The UK certainly doesn’t lack the talent or education, and I don’t think it’s any longer about access to capital."
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
Polling due tonight looks like at least Savanta for the Sunday Telegraph teased with 'let's just say there's been some movement' (was Reforms lowest and one of the Tories and Labour better ones last time) Should be a Deltapoll in the Mail, huge Lab lead last time Opinium in the Observer will be their first to constituency prompt in this GE
Constituency prompting usually less good for Lab/Con so could be interesting
We know Lab are down 2 LD up 2 from a Guardian article but don't yet know any other figures
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
My calculation is very different. I don’t have much in the way of assets - just some shares, a flat, ISAs. I’m certainly not POOR but I’m probably not in seven figures - mainly because despite earning loads of money I have also spent loads of money. I have had an absolute blast. I don’t regret it - what is money for?!
However I am still earning nicely and can expect to do so for a few years yet. So I want to protect my income. I’m done with giving 40-50% of that income to a country which spunks it on rubbish public services, endless woke nonsense, a declining civic realm, asylum seekers in hotels, a migrant incoming every minute, and then coolly regards me as a toxic cis-het white male who should be at the back of every queue
I’ve paid a lot of tax to HMRC. They’ve got more out of me than I ever got from them
But I’m not paying any more to UK PLC, and certainly not under Labour
Sounds like we'll see a flood of aggrieved patriots departing our shores.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
250k UK citizens have moved to Dubai in the past decade and the numbers have been increasing year on year. These aren't poor people doing this, to go and work slave labour jobs in construction. Its happening already.
Its actually something that is not getting talked about during immigration debate. 1+ million people in, ~0.5 million out. Its record in, and record out. Who are these people, how skilled are they, why are they leaving? I think a good chunk will be students, but would be interesting to know the break down.
There seems to be a bit of an air of f##k business / rich people creeping in. Haven't we already had enough of that over the past 5 years?
Every time there's a whiff of a Labour government some of the rich threaten to up sticks and relocate away. It's nothing new. Not that many actually do. But I don't see why we can't criticise their lack of patriotism; they're just sore losers. If they loved their country, they'd stay. And if they're not happy with their tax rates, they're more than welcome to campaign for a change of government.
What preposterous gibberish. People move abroad all the time. Its got nothing to do with patriotism
People that leave America cause they don’t like its polarised politics and gun culture, the hideous debate on abortion and the grave inequality, are they all lacking in patriotism?
Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today? Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?
A Man For All Seasons on BBC2 is looking better.
Wonderful cinematography and direction, and the country in 1966 and 1967 visible through the period setting.
That was the first film I saw at the cinema.
What was the experience like ?
I remember my first film too.
I remember it mainly for the fact my dad took me. Bit of aspirational parenting, I think, because it's quite a serious film for a 6 year old ... ah no, I was more like 9 and this came out in 1966 so it can't have been this film. It must have been the 1970 film, Cromwell. Yes that's more like it. He also took me to Live And Let Die.
What was yours then?
Not much later, it must have been Diamonds Are Forever, which I don't know how my parents got me into.
My main memory was my fascination with Jill St. John's bra, and amusement at the Russian baddies. One of the louchest and most offbeat of Bond films, as I remember; ;goofy humour, slow and languid scenes, and leopardprint sofas ; 1970's Las Vegas.
Ha yes. The Bond girls. And sat with a parent. Squirm. Me too.
The phrase "unite the right" is pure undiluted, explicit fascism and racism ... I can hardly forget that Braverman used that phrase or that the author doesn't hight that fact.
Polling due tonight looks like at least Savanta for the Sunday Telegraph teased with 'let's just say there's been some movement' (was Reforms lowest and one of the Tories and Labour better ones last time) Should be a Deltapoll in the Mail, huge Lab lead last time Opinium in the Observer will be their first to constituency prompt in this GE
And the Opinium figure for Labour and LibDem has leaked: 40% Labour and 12% LibDem
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
What's the big moan for? Just take your 5 year holiday. Sounds great.
Honestly - I like living here and I like contributing a reasonable amount of tax. My bill jumping from, say, 200k to 400k next year means I'd be a muppet to stay, as I guarantee I won't get 400k back in better service from the government.
200k on every million? Fine. I'm prepared to pay it and I'm doing my part. If that gets doubled next year, I will a) be off for obvious reasons but b) feel bad because I was perfectly happy paying the 200k. It's right that, being richer, I pay more. but there's a huge difference between paying more and being taken for a ride. It's similar to the arguments about being on benefits paying more than work. Tax is about altering behaviour - and the behaviour the UK government needs from people like me is to tax us just enough to maximize their tax take without taxing us so much we bugger off. 20% is about right. At 40%, I have better options.
I have probably paid more tax than most people on this board - and I've paid it gladly. But there is a threshold beyond which it's simply throwing money away.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
The problem with that is there aren’t enough tustifarian millionaires to get real money from. If you want to raise serious money you need to include the middle classes.
The ONS estimates that 300,000 people have an income of more than £200k, IIRC
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
So Britain will be able to rely on the taxes you pay, as a failed writer living on his own in a bed sit in Aberdeen shouting incoherently at motorcycles. That’s at least £6.87 a year. Should cover the NHS, no problem
Most of the people saying who cares tax them more that are left wing here are exactly the people that are going to be taxed more and don't seem to realise that the people being taxed more will be them at which I expect the squealing to begin.
The simple truth is even if you dug an extra 5 to 10% tax out of the top 10% its not going to be nearly enough for all the public services you think need extra funding. It will also need probably a few% on the higher rate and a couple of percent on the basic rate plus fiscal drag.
You might say thats fine but then you keep telling us basic rate tax payers often have to use food banks and you want to take more money of them in tax
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
The problem with that is there aren’t enough tustifarian millionaires to get real money from. If you want to raise serious money you need to include the middle classes.
The ONS estimates that 300,000 people have an income of more than £200k, IIRC
And of course we have a totally dumb tax cliff edge at £100k. The UK is losing tax and productivity because of it, because no numpty is going to take a pay rise of £10-15k and pay 90% effective rate on it, instead they go on holiday more, only work 4 days etc.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
Go away then. Go be morose in Dubai or the UAE or Saudi or Monaco. You've done your bit and taken your share. Hand your passport in and live a new unmoored life as a tax exile unencumbered by social norms. You could even meet up with our resident shit and chat about the wrongs of CGT.
Just don't come back if you need a new hip or your liver stops working or a Gulf sheikh acting in rational self interest has confiscated your cash.
I’ve probably paid more in tax to the UK than you’ve earned in total
So I’ll do what I like, within the law
By your own account you're already something of a tax exile ?
But agreed, it's rather counterproductive to berate you for that.
Equally, if you do become a permanent exile, your ongoing stake in our politics (not that it will, or should bother you) is seriously diminished.
Since I seem to be preoccupied with the Yellows today, I may as well mention that Sporting have tweaked the spread on their seat numbers up to 53-57. I wouldn't buy or sell at that level, but I do think it is inconsistent with the Betfair market on Most Seats Without Labour, where the LDs are available at 4.5 (7/2 in old money.)
That looks like a back to me, but I may be talking my own book a bit.
Thoughts anyone?
I think the prices of 4.5 for LDs greater than CON, 6 for CON seats less than 50 and middle of LD seat spread at 55 are consistent. I can't see arbitrage.
17% chance that CON seats is less than 50 seats. 22% chance that CON seats is less than LD seats (middle 55 seats).
I've got £900 on Con as second party. I fervently hope to lose. What a turn up it would be. Worth £900.
Government benches crammed to over flowing with Labour. LDs as official opposition facing them. A few dozen Tories in the corner with a few SNP and other odds and sods. Yes definitely worth £900.
And if it doesn't happen, well I have some financial compensation.
PS I don't often bet this way but I couldn't resist it.
The phrase "unite the right" is pure undiluted, explicit fascism and racism ... I can hardly forget that Braverman used that phrase or that the author doesn't hight that fact.
There seems to be a bit of an air of f##k business / rich people creeping in. Haven't we already had enough of that over the past 5 years?
Every time there's a whiff of a Labour government some of the rich threaten to up sticks and relocate away. It's nothing new. Not that many actually do. But I don't see why we can't criticise their lack of patriotism; they're just sore losers. If they loved their country, they'd stay. And if they're not happy with their tax rates, they're more than welcome to campaign for a change of government.
What preposterous gibberish. People move abroad all the time. Its got nothing to do with patriotism
People that leave America cause they don’t like its polarised politics and gun culture, the hideous debate on abortion and the grave inequality, are they all lacking in patriotism?
Thanks. I'll take it as a compliment that you've referenced the USA, rather than the UK that I was obviously talking about.
PS - you know you'll really miss Camden and Primrose Hill. Those views over London, "the greatest city on earth" (Leon).
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
250k UK citizens have moved to Dubai in the last few years. Its happening already.
Given that UK citizens emigrating is about 100k per year in total, you probably need to qualify "in the last few years".
Er, in the last year 532,000 people emigrated from the UK
ONS:
“1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 532,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 685,000. This represents the balance of long-term migrants moving in and out of the country.”
There seems to be a bit of an air of f##k business / rich people creeping in. Haven't we already had enough of that over the past 5 years?
Every time there's a whiff of a Labour government some of the rich threaten to up sticks and relocate away. It's nothing new. Not that many actually do. But I don't see why we can't criticise their lack of patriotism; they're just sore losers. If they loved their country, they'd stay. And if they're not happy with their tax rates, they're more than welcome to campaign for a change of government.
What preposterous gibberish. People move abroad all the time. Its got nothing to do with patriotism
People that leave America cause they don’t like its polarised politics and gun culture, the hideous debate on abortion and the grave inequality, are they all lacking in patriotism?
Absolutely yes they're lacking patriotism. Not that that's a bad thing, mind.
There seems to be a bit of an air of f##k business / rich people creeping in. Haven't we already had enough of that over the past 5 years?
Every time there's a whiff of a Labour government some of the rich threaten to up sticks and relocate away. It's nothing new. Not that many actually do. But I don't see why we can't criticise their lack of patriotism; they're just sore losers. If they loved their country, they'd stay. And if they're not happy with their tax rates, they're more than welcome to campaign for a change of government.
I think there's often an air of spoiling the Lefties' fun: you may get your socialist government but the massive downside is that you lose me!
Yes it makes the heart bleed doesn’t it?
I expect this to be mostly puff and when they wake up on July 5th and find that the sun is shining, the earth is turning, and people are going about their lives most of them will shrug their shoulders and remain.
The UK is still a very attractive place to be based, hence why so many wish to come to these shores. And yes you can still get hips and livers on the NHS thanks @Tweedledee The tories may have (deliberately) run down public services and then shouted, ‘oh look how crap they are’ but they will gradually improve under Labour.
I’m old enough (just) to remember all this guff in the run-up to 1997.
And then people like Leon discovered that actually living under a New Labour Government was really rather Cool.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
250k UK citizens have moved to Dubai in the last few years. Its happening already.
Given that UK citizens emigrating is about 100k per year in total, you probably need to qualify "in the last few years".
Er, in the last year 532,000 people emigrated from the UK
ONS:
“1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 532,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 685,000. This represents the balance of long-term migrants moving in and out of the country.”
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
250k UK citizens have moved to Dubai in the last few years. Its happening already.
Given that UK citizens emigrating is about 100k per year in total, you probably need to qualify "in the last few years".
Er, in the last year 532,000 people emigrated from the UK
ONS:
“1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 532,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 685,000. This represents the balance of long-term migrants moving in and out of the country.”
I would like to know the break down of their incomes, what they do for a living etc. A good chunk of EU / RoW will be students, but have we already been seeing a brain / capital drain?
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
Go away then. Go be morose in Dubai or the UAE or Saudi or Monaco. You've done your bit and taken your share. Hand your passport in and live a new unmoored life as a tax exile unencumbered by social norms. You could even meet up with our resident shit and chat about the wrongs of CGT.
Just don't come back if you need a new hip or your liver stops working or a Gulf sheikh acting in rational self interest has confiscated your cash.
I’ve probably paid more in tax to the UK than you’ve earned in total
So I’ll do what I like, within the law
By your own account you're already something of a tax exile ?
But agreed, it's rather counterproductive to berate you for that.
Equally, if you do become a permanent exile, your ongoing stake in our politics (not that it will, or should bother you) is seriously diminished.
The last point is true to an extent, I can actually feel myself caring less about the UK and about UK politics. Its a definite thing
However I will still care quite a lot because I have lots of friends and family in the UK - most of all my elder daughter
I want what’s best for them so I will still be emotionally invested
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
Go away then. Go be morose in Dubai or the UAE or Saudi or Monaco. You've done your bit and taken your share. Hand your passport in and live a new unmoored life as a tax exile unencumbered by social norms. You could even meet up with our resident shit and chat about the wrongs of CGT.
Just don't come back if you need a new hip or your liver stops working or a Gulf sheikh acting in rational self interest has confiscated your cash.
I’ve probably paid more in tax to the UK than you’ve earned in total
So I’ll do what I like, within the law
By your own account you're already something of a tax exile ?
But agreed, it's rather counterproductive to berate you for that.
Equally, if you do become a permanent exile, your ongoing stake in our politics (not that it will, or should bother you) is seriously diminished.
Doesn’t sound like it - he said he was *investing* around half of a good income on PAYE.
The kind of provision for retirement the government was supposedly encouraging.
The point is that if you slam on CGT, then going offshore makes sense when you realise the gains.
Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today? Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?
One or two factors involved I think.
There are no affirmative and discussible issues of real substance about the direction of the national future dividing the parties. This is not an election in which one party is "Abolish the armed forces, pay as you go for health care" and the other is saying "abolish schools and ban the internet while declaring war on China". So there is nothing but speculation to talk about. This is boring in the end.
Opinion polls when there are so many are no longer special, except for the sorts of people who follow PB.
There are no charismatic speakers, and the nearest thing, Mr Toad of Farage Hall, is a known quantity and has nothing new to offer.
The most effective campaigning, apparently, happens invisibly on smartphones, not in newspapers, telly and the streets.
The better off have to be soaked, because someone has to pay for the upkeep of our increasingly elderly and decrepit population, and you're not going to get much more by squeezing and squeezing the wages of low and middle income earners until they scream for mercy. That said, you can understand the butt hurt being expressed by better off people who claim that higher taxes on their investments are simply punishment for working hard. That's not the intention of whatever tax rises or allowance reductions are likely coming after the election, even if it feels like it to them. We can't afford to give in to special pleading on the subject, but perhaps we can afford to give them a bit of space to vent rather than simply telling them to make sure that the door hits them full in the arse on the way out?
The bigger problem in all of this is that any revenue raising measures that do come will, ultimately, be insufficiently broad based and fail to raise enough cash to start to deal with all of our problems, because they are almost bound to ignore residential property. Crudely put, the Theresa May experience taught us that the only way to deal with the gigantic health and social care problem is to tax houses more and, simultaneously, you can't tax houses more because the population, especially the expensive to keep old people who also control most of the property wealth, will revolt if you try to do it. This problem seems, to me, to be fundamentally insoluble in a democratic system.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
So Britain will be able to rely on the taxes you pay, as a failed writer living on his own in a bed sit in Aberdeen shouting incoherently at motorcycles. That’s at least £6.87 a year. Should cover the NHS, no problem
Oh the chutzpah of this guy.
You were a successful writer once Sean but, as you know only too well, the country moved on from your tawdry tales of male sexual predation and it left you behind. So you changed your name not once, not twice, but at least three times to try and get back to bestselling books.
When that didn’t work you became an embittered old fool who, instead of holding a mirror up to himself, blamed the world that left him behind.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
So Britain will be able to rely on the taxes you pay, as a failed writer living on his own in a bed sit in Aberdeen shouting incoherently at motorcycles. That’s at least £6.87 a year. Should cover the NHS, no problem
Oh the chutzpah of this guy.
You were a successful writer once Sean but, as you know only too well, the country moved on from your tawdry tales of male sexual predation and it left you behind. So you changed your name not once, not twice, but at least three times to try and get back to bestselling books.
When that didn’t work you became an embittered old fool who, instead of holding a mirror up to himself, blamed the world that left him behind.
My income last year was greater than that of the prime minster. As it has been for all but one of the last 12 years. You’re welcome
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Do a Warren Buffet and don't crystalise your gain. Take a long term view. You don't need to realise capital. You have more than enough income. Wait it out. It seems sad to spend five years of your life as a nomad for tax reasons, unless you want the adventure anyway.
Looking at polling movevent this week, Savanta may well show a big movement from ConLab to RefLD but how that distributes defines that narrative, Deltapoll is likely to show Lab down from 46 if it moves into line but the Tories had already taken a hit to 21 last week, will they fall even further? Deltapoll is very bouncy. Opinium, probably a similar Con Ref move so lead maybe unchanged? Poll sex. Love it
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
So Britain will be able to rely on the taxes you pay, as a failed writer living on his own in a bed sit in Aberdeen shouting incoherently at motorcycles. That’s at least £6.87 a year. Should cover the NHS, no problem
Oh the chutzpah of this guy.
You were a successful writer once Sean but, as you know only too well, the country moved on from your tawdry tales of male sexual predation and it left you behind. So you changed your name not once, not twice, but at least three times to try and get back to bestselling books.
When that didn’t work you became an embittered old fool who, instead of holding a mirror up to himself, blamed the world that left him behind.
My income last year was greater than that of the prime minster. As it has been for all but one of the last 12 years. You’re welcome
Either you earned more than £2.2mn, or are referring to his prime ministerial salary?
Most of the people saying who cares tax them more that are left wing here are exactly the people that are going to be taxed more and don't seem to realise that the people being taxed more will be them at which I expect the squealing to begin.
The simple truth is even if you dug an extra 5 to 10% tax out of the top 10% its not going to be nearly enough for all the public services you think need extra funding. It will also need probably a few% on the higher rate and a couple of percent on the basic rate plus fiscal drag.
You might say thats fine but then you keep telling us basic rate tax payers often have to use food banks and you want to take more money of them in tax
Is it not possible to adjust the tax bands and rates to be more equitable? If basic rate taxpayers, presumably nearer the £12,570 rather than the £50,270, have to use food banks then make adjustments. It's a political choice, which both main parties have said they won't make.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
So Britain will be able to rely on the taxes you pay, as a failed writer living on his own in a bed sit in Aberdeen shouting incoherently at motorcycles. That’s at least £6.87 a year. Should cover the NHS, no problem
Oh the chutzpah of this guy.
You were a successful writer once Sean but, as you know only too well, the country moved on from your tawdry tales of male sexual predation and it left you behind. So you changed your name not once, not twice, but at least three times to try and get back to bestselling books.
When that didn’t work you became an embittered old fool who, instead of holding a mirror up to himself, blamed the world that left him behind.
*pops head round door, thinks better of it, retreats*
Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today? Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?
I have been running errands in town and have passed through Leicester East and Leicester South.
Leicester East has a surprising number of Orange diamonds in gardens. One billboard for the Labour party candidate, Claudia Webbe's office looks as deserted as it has been for 4 years, but looks as if the windows have been cleaned. Keith Vaz's office plastered in posters and looked busy. Nothing visible for the Tories or other parties and Independents.
The city centre had active street stalls for animal rights, a Pentacostal Church, Muslims and Hare Krishnas but nothing political that I could see.
Leicester South has a lot of posters up for Shockhat (Pro Gaza Independent) and a single Labour poster in a shop in hipster Queens Rd. I know for sure that Jonathan Ashworth wasn't out canvassing as he was in the next chair to me at the barbers. He seemed in good spirits and seemed to have some media appearances planned as was chatting away to the barber about these. I had a brief chat to him at the till, and he seemed in good cheer but not taking anything or any voter for granted.
Likely 2 Labour holds IMO, but I have a few quid on Vaz at 41, and I think Shockat will keep his deposit and perhaps more in Leicester South.
Of course the mega mega rich don't often pay CGT, they are able to take loans out against their share holdings which they don't pay very slowly or not until death.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
So Britain will be able to rely on the taxes you pay, as a failed writer living on his own in a bed sit in Aberdeen shouting incoherently at motorcycles. That’s at least £6.87 a year. Should cover the NHS, no problem
Oh the chutzpah of this guy.
You were a successful writer once Sean but, as you know only too well, the country moved on from your tawdry tales of male sexual predation and it left you behind. So you changed your name not once, not twice, but at least three times to try and get back to bestselling books.
When that didn’t work you became an embittered old fool who, instead of holding a mirror up to himself, blamed the world that left him behind.
My income last year was greater than that of the prime minster. As it has been for all but one of the last 12 years. You’re welcome
Either you earned more than £2.2mn, or are referring to his prime ministerial salary?
If it’s the former, drinks on you next time.
lol. Yes. I mean salary sadly. Not his overall income. I wish!
There seems to be a bit of an air of f##k business / rich people creeping in. Haven't we already had enough of that over the past 5 years?
Every time there's a whiff of a Labour government some of the rich threaten to up sticks and relocate away. It's nothing new. Not that many actually do. But I don't see why we can't criticise their lack of patriotism; they're just sore losers. If they loved their country, they'd stay. And if they're not happy with their tax rates, they're more than welcome to campaign for a change of government.
I think there's often an air of spoiling the Lefties' fun: you may get your socialist government but the massive downside is that you lose me!
Yes it makes the heart bleed doesn’t it?
I expect this to be mostly puff and when they wake up on July 5th and find that the sun is shining, the earth is turning, and people are going about their lives most of them will shrug their shoulders and remain.
The UK is still a very attractive place to be based, hence why so many wish to come to these shores. And yes you can still get hips and livers on the NHS thanks @Tweedledee The tories may have (deliberately) run down public services and then shouted, ‘oh look how crap they are’ but they will gradually improve under Labour.
I’m old enough (just) to remember all this guff in the run-up to 1997.
And then people like Leon discovered that actually living under a New Labour Government was really rather Cool.
In theory. In practice you pay, if you have the money.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
So Britain will be able to rely on the taxes you pay, as a failed writer living on his own in a bed sit in Aberdeen shouting incoherently at motorcycles. That’s at least £6.87 a year. Should cover the NHS, no problem
Oh the chutzpah of this guy.
You were a successful writer once Sean but, as you know only too well, the country moved on from your tawdry tales of male sexual predation and it left you behind. So you changed your name not once, not twice, but at least three times to try and get back to bestselling books.
When that didn’t work you became an embittered old fool who, instead of holding a mirror up to himself, blamed the world that left him behind.
My income last year was greater than that of the prime minster. As it has been for all but one of the last 12 years. You’re welcome
Sunak's income was £2.3 million last year. The Gazette must pay well.
What do Alex Chalk, Mims Davies, Neil Hudson and Chris Loder have in common?
They're the only Tory MPs who don't have a Reform or Reform-endorsed SDP (there are some local deals where Reform endorsed SDP candidates) candidate running against them.
If Farage were to drop a bombshell that one of those four had defected to Reform during the campaign and they'd deliberately not run a candidate in that constituency so they could endorse him, which one do you think it would be and can anyone find a market for defections?
It won’t be Chalk. And he will be losing to the Libs anyway sadly.
Hudson is a lucky general! (Rare among Tories). MP for Penrith and Border, rejected by the new boundaries seat (Penrith and Solway) in favour of the man from Workington, this seat will go Labour. He now stands a decent chance. He's OK, and the only vet in the commons.
There seems to be a bit of an air of f##k business / rich people creeping in. Haven't we already had enough of that over the past 5 years?
Every time there's a whiff of a Labour government some of the rich threaten to up sticks and relocate away. It's nothing new. Not that many actually do. But I don't see why we can't criticise their lack of patriotism; they're just sore losers. If they loved their country, they'd stay. And if they're not happy with their tax rates, they're more than welcome to campaign for a change of government.
What preposterous gibberish. People move abroad all the time. Its got nothing to do with patriotism
People that leave America cause they don’t like its polarised politics and gun culture, the hideous debate on abortion and the grave inequality, are they all lacking in patriotism?
I seem to remember Andrew Lloyd-Webber threatening to leave the country if Labour win in 92.
Spitting Image had a sketch of him -slightly unhinged - screaming that he would 'leave the country if Labour won'. Followed by a continuity announcer stating "that was a political party broadcast from the Labour Party" 😂
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
So Britain will be able to rely on the taxes you pay, as a failed writer living on his own in a bed sit in Aberdeen shouting incoherently at motorcycles. That’s at least £6.87 a year. Should cover the NHS, no problem
Oh the chutzpah of this guy.
You were a successful writer once Sean but, as you know only too well, the country moved on from your tawdry tales of male sexual predation and it left you behind. So you changed your name not once, not twice, but at least three times to try and get back to bestselling books.
When that didn’t work you became an embittered old fool who, instead of holding a mirror up to himself, blamed the world that left him behind.
My income last year was greater than that of the prime minster. As it has been for all but one of the last 12 years. You’re welcome
Sunak's income was £2.3 million last year. The Gazette must pay well.
I predict next year it is going to be a hell of a lot more than that. Big tech pays very well as Nick Clegg found out.
The phrase "unite the right" is pure undiluted, explicit fascism and racism ... I can hardly forget that Braverman used that phrase or that the author doesn't hight that fact.
It's not *explicit* anything. You are just misapplying American cultural references. This is not the US.
That is nonsense... sigh heil may be german but we all know what it means. That kind of bracketing may be a stroy you can tell yourself, but those mental acrobatics are for you, but don't apply in the real world.
Most of the people saying who cares tax them more that are left wing here are exactly the people that are going to be taxed more and don't seem to realise that the people being taxed more will be them at which I expect the squealing to begin.
The simple truth is even if you dug an extra 5 to 10% tax out of the top 10% its not going to be nearly enough for all the public services you think need extra funding. It will also need probably a few% on the higher rate and a couple of percent on the basic rate plus fiscal drag.
You might say thats fine but then you keep telling us basic rate tax payers often have to use food banks and you want to take more money of them in tax
Is it not possible to adjust the tax bands and rates to be more equitable? If basic rate taxpayers, presumably nearer the £12,570 rather than the £50,270, have to use food banks then make adjustments. It's a political choice, which both main parties have said they won't make.
Apparently if you believe the guardian many nurses do and they are certainly nearer the upper limit than the lower
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
250k UK citizens have moved to Dubai in the last few years. Its happening already.
Given that UK citizens emigrating is about 100k per year in total, you probably need to qualify "in the last few years".
Er, in the last year 532,000 people emigrated from the UK
ONS:
“1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 532,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 685,000. This represents the balance of long-term migrants moving in and out of the country.”
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
250k UK citizens have moved to Dubai in the last few years. Its happening already.
Given that UK citizens emigrating is about 100k per year in total, you probably need to qualify "in the last few years".
Er, in the last year 532,000 people emigrated from the UK
ONS:
“1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 532,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 685,000. This represents the balance of long-term migrants moving in and out of the country.”
Exactly, and then because that's what FrancisUrquhart lead with. Just sticking to the terms of the conversation is apparently enough to make Leon dizzy and fall over.
I don’t say you were wrong I was pointing out the absurdly narrow focus of your argument. On top of 100,000 uk emigrants 400,000 others left. Who were they? How many were long term residents who actually paid a lot of tax? And how many of the trillions of incomers are going to be a net drain on the treasury, instead?
Its not the super rich fleeing they want to worry about it is the middle giving up.
Personally I am part time now, which keeps me below £50k. Before I was stuffing huge amounts into Pension additional voluntary contributions. Don't mind paying 28% but damned if I will pay 70% marginal rate in tax and child benefit withrawals. So by trying to get 70% off me instead of 28% they get 0%.
There are similar things happening at £100k with childcare/personal allowance cliff.
The last two years have seen inflation matching benefit rises of 10% and 8% with tax allowances. on those working (and getting much lower pay rises) to pay for it.
So people are changing sides. A huge amount of those claiming working age sickness benefits are for conditions with a subjective diagnosis (backache/mental health condition). Only 16% were turned down.
Do I blame them. No. If I had no qualifications and rented and the choice was go on the sick, get my rent paid, get a stipend, get cost of living payments, get 75% of council tax paid, pay social utility rates, get a free mobility car...
...or get an unpleasant McJob that involved being treated poorly and unsocial night shifts and having 25% more cash at the end of it if I was lucky, I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same (that is before taking into account cash in hand receipts for the former).
So tax and benefit rises are already turning net contributors into net receivers. More of the same from Labour is the path to Bankruptcy
Sunak has threatened to serve 5 years as an MP even if losing overall, kind of instructing Richmond to see him off really
A leader who gets shellacked at a GE just has to go. At best you end up on the backbenchers just reminding everybody what a total disaster you made of everything or becoming this bitter and twisted Maybot type person. If you care about your party you go quickly and keep quiet.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
So Britain will be able to rely on the taxes you pay, as a failed writer living on his own in a bed sit in Aberdeen shouting incoherently at motorcycles. That’s at least £6.87 a year. Should cover the NHS, no problem
Being a failed writer is a hobby. I've never sought any income for my failed writings. For actual work I'm a failed project manager. I manage failing projects or I take on well-run projects and cause them to fail. For this, I'm suitably rewarded. My total tax paid to the government last year was probably well into double figures.
If you have a failing project you'd like me to manage, please get in touch. my rates are surprisingly reasonable.
Not all of us need the money from our writings, either. Or at least I don't any more. Quite luxurious not having to pander to editors any longer, and to spend time on stuff that doesn't all too often instantly go into the recycling bin or the electronic equivalent.
The phrase "unite the right" is pure undiluted, explicit fascism and racism ... I can hardly forget that Braverman used that phrase or that the author doesn't hight that fact.
It's not *explicit* anything. You are just misapplying American cultural references. This is not the US.
That is nonsense... sigh heil may be german but we all know what it means. That kind of bracketing may be a stroy you can tell yourself, but those mental acrobatics are for you, but don't apply in the real world.
Look at this "undiluted, explicit fascism" in Canada:
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
Go away then. Go be morose in Dubai or the UAE or Saudi or Monaco. You've done your bit and taken your share. Hand your passport in and live a new unmoored life as a tax exile unencumbered by social norms. You could even meet up with our resident shit and chat about the wrongs of CGT.
Just don't come back if you need a new hip or your liver stops working or a Gulf sheikh acting in rational self interest has confiscated your cash.
I’ve probably paid more in tax to the UK than you’ve earned in total
So I’ll do what I like, within the law
By your own account you're already something of a tax exile ?
But agreed, it's rather counterproductive to berate you for that.
Equally, if you do become a permanent exile, your ongoing stake in our politics (not that it will, or should bother you) is seriously diminished.
The last point is true to an extent, I can actually feel myself caring less about the UK and about UK politics. Its a definite thing
However I will still care quite a lot because I have lots of friends and family in the UK - most of all my elder daughter
I want what’s best for them so I will still be emotionally invested
Your predicament reminds me of the White Russians when Lenin took over.
Its not the super rich fleeing they want to worry about it is the middle giving up.
Personally I am part time now, which keeps me below £50k. Before I was stuffing huge amounts into Pension additional voluntary contributions. Don't mind paying 28% but damned if I will pay 70% marginal rate in tax and child benefit withrawals. So by trying to get 70% off me instead of 28% they get 0%.
There are similar things happening at £100k with childcare/personal allowance cliff.
The last two years have seen inflation matching benefit rises of 10% and 8% with tax allowances. on those working (and getting much lower pay rises) to pay for it.
So people are changing sides. A huge amount of those claiming working age sickness benefits are for conditions with a subjective diagnosis (backache/mental health condition). Only 16% were turned down.
Do I blame them. No. If I had no qualifications and rented and the choice was go on the sick, get my rent paid, get a stipend, get cost of living payments, get 75% of council tax paid, pay social utility rates, get a free mobility car...
...or get an unpleasant McJob that involved being treated poorly and unsocial night shifts and having 25% more cash at the end of it if I was lucky, I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same (that is before taking into account cash in hand receipts for the former).
So tax and benefit rises are already turning net contributors into net receivers. More of the same from Labour is the path to Bankruptcy
Yes, the Labour government has really set up some bad incentives these last 14 years, haven't they? We should chuck them out and give Sunaks Conservatives a try.
Since I seem to be preoccupied with the Yellows today, I may as well mention that Sporting have tweaked the spread on their seat numbers up to 53-57. I wouldn't buy or sell at that level, but I do think it is inconsistent with the Betfair market on Most Seats Without Labour, where the LDs are available at 4.5 (7/2 in old money.)
That looks like a back to me, but I may be talking my own book a bit.
Thoughts anyone?
I think the prices of 4.5 for LDs greater than CON, 6 for CON seats less than 50 and middle of LD seat spread at 55 are consistent. I can't see arbitrage.
17% chance that CON seats is less than 50 seats. 22% chance that CON seats is less than LD seats (middle 55 seats).
I've got £900 on Con as second party. I fervently hope to lose. What a turn up it would be. Worth £900.
Government benches crammed to over flowing with Labour. LDs as official opposition facing them. A few dozen Tories in the corner with a few SNP and other odds and sods. Yes definitely worth £900.
And if it doesn't happen, well I have some financial compensation.
PS I don't often bet this way but I couldn't resist it.
Won't you be peed if Con finish third behind Labour and Reform? Don't think it's going to happen, but this is a strange GE.*
I follow your logic but I don't think 5/1 [17%] is right for Tories <50. Baxter is putting them at 80 and he doesn't allow for Tactical Voting. (Doesn't allow for Swingback either, but there has been as much sign of Swingaway as Swingback.) So under <50 is no great stretch. I'd call it a 25% chance {3/1) at least. And if that comes in, LDs will definitely be ahead of them.
Anyway, I holding my LD position and buying the 4.5 on SED as LOTO.
* I was astonished when Sunak called it for 4th July, and thought it was a mistake then. I now realise that he was ignoring the major soccer tournament that has just started. People are just not going to be bothered with politics. That's not ideal for a Party that has to make up 20 points. Itstrikes me that this is another indication of his poor political antennae, and insensitivity towards the electorate generally.
The better off have to be soaked, because someone has to pay for the upkeep of our increasingly elderly and decrepit population, and you're not going to get much more by squeezing and squeezing the wages of low and middle income earners until they scream for mercy. That said, you can understand the butt hurt being expressed by better off people who claim that higher taxes on their investments are simply punishment for working hard. That's not the intention of whatever tax rises or allowance reductions are likely coming after the election, even if it feels like it to them. We can't afford to give in to special pleading on the subject, but perhaps we can afford to give them a bit of space to vent rather than simply telling them to make sure that the door hits them full in the arse on the way out?
The bigger problem in all of this is that any revenue raising measures that do come will, ultimately, be insufficiently broad based and fail to raise enough cash to start to deal with all of our problems, because they are almost bound to ignore residential property. Crudely put, the Theresa May experience taught us that the only way to deal with the gigantic health and social care problem is to tax houses more and, simultaneously, you can't tax houses more because the population, especially the expensive to keep old people who also control most of the property wealth, will revolt if you try to do it. This problem seems, to me, to be fundamentally insoluble in a democratic system.
It's simply the laffer curve in action.
I was expecting to make disposals next year which would incur £300k-ish in cgt at 20%
Which is more tax than many will pay in their entire life, and I was quite happy to do it.
If as predicted that becomes 40-45% next year, I can bugger off on holiday for five years, spending fifty grand a year wibbling about and having fun not working. And _still_ have more money left over than if I had paid the UK cgt bill at 40%
Economics is simply rational choice theory. I want to pay tax and contribute to the UK economy and indeed I have paid more in tax than most people ever will.
I'm talking about being willing to pay 300k in tax next year. How much do some of the bedsit posters in here pay in tax, if they pay any at all? 10k a year? I'm prepared to pay 30 years of sad bedsit Farooq poster tax in a single year. And more again the year after. At 20%
At 40% it's worth my while becoming a listless grumpy gammony tax exile working on my tan in Pattaya. But I don't want that to happen. I want the government to tax me a sensible amount, and I want to pay a sensible amount.
Anyone else in this thread want to own up to being happy to pay 300k in tax next year?
No?
I hope some of the people in this thread telling me to eff off and pay nothing then, enjoy it when I actually eff off and pay nothing.
Sunak has threatened to serve 5 years as an MP even if losing overall, kind of instructing Richmond to see him off really
A leader who gets shellacked at a GE just has to go. At best you end up on the backbenchers just reminding everybody what a total disaster you made of everything or becoming this bitter and twisted Maybot type person. If you care about your party you go quickly and keep quiet.
Its not the super rich fleeing they want to worry about it is the middle giving up.
Personally I am part time now, which keeps me below £50k. Before I was stuffing huge amounts into Pension additional voluntary contributions. Don't mind paying 28% but damned if I will pay 70% marginal rate in tax and child benefit withrawals. So by trying to get 70% off me instead of 28% they get 0%.
There are similar things happening at £100k with childcare/personal allowance cliff.
The last two years have seen inflation matching benefit rises of 10% and 8% with tax allowances. on those working (and getting much lower pay rises) to pay for it.
So people are changing sides. A huge amount of those claiming working age sickness benefits are for conditions with a subjective diagnosis (backache/mental health condition). Only 16% were turned down.
Do I blame them. No. If I had no qualifications and rented and the choice was go on the sick, get my rent paid, get a stipend, get cost of living payments, get 75% of council tax paid, pay social utility rates, get a free mobility car...
...or get an unpleasant McJob that involved being treated poorly and unsocial night shifts and having 25% more cash at the end of it if I was lucky, I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same (that is before taking into account cash in hand receipts for the former).
So tax and benefit rises are already turning net contributors into net receivers. More of the same from Labour is the path to Bankruptcy
Latest in the familiar genre of “the Tories have made things shit. So you’d better not vote Labour because they might ruin it”.
Its not the super rich fleeing they want to worry about it is the middle giving up.
Personally I am part time now, which keeps me below £50k. Before I was stuffing huge amounts into Pension additional voluntary contributions. Don't mind paying 28% but damned if I will pay 70% marginal rate in tax and child benefit withrawals. So by trying to get 70% off me instead of 28% they get 0%.
There are similar things happening at £100k with childcare/personal allowance cliff.
The last two years have seen inflation matching benefit rises of 10% and 8% with tax allowances. on those working (and getting much lower pay rises) to pay for it.
So people are changing sides. A huge amount of those claiming working age sickness benefits are for conditions with a subjective diagnosis (backache/mental health condition). Only 16% were turned down.
Do I blame them. No. If I had no qualifications and rented and the choice was go on the sick, get my rent paid, get a stipend, get cost of living payments, get 75% of council tax paid, pay social utility rates, get a free mobility car...
...or get an unpleasant McJob that involved being treated poorly and unsocial night shifts and having 25% more cash at the end of it if I was lucky, I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same (that is before taking into account cash in hand receipts for the former).
So tax and benefit rises are already turning net contributors into net receivers. More of the same from Labour is the path to Bankruptcy
This has been the most amazing thing about a Tory government. What the core problem with UK PLC, productivity, what things have Tories done...reduced CGT threshold and entrepreneurial relief on CGT from first business sale, introduce pension pot limit on tax relief, NI rises, introduced new NI++, and continued £50k cliff edge, £100k cliff edge,.....all great for growth and improved productivity, not.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Do a Warren Buffet and don't crystalise your gain. Take a long term view. You don't need to realise capital. You have more than enough income. Wait it out. It seems sad to spend five years of your life as a nomad for tax reasons, unless you want the adventure anyway.
If they can change the rate they can change the 5 year rule
I already pay an effective tax rate of 53% on all my income, probably the highest on here, so in for a penny in for a pound.
Doubt it. My earnings gross last year would have been over £50k and so seen me have a marginal rate of over 70% (40% tax 2% NI ~28% Child Benefit withdrawal £250 marriage allowance withdrawal) if I hadn't put the difference into additional pension voluntary contributions through salary sacrifice. Few do.
Since I seem to be preoccupied with the Yellows today, I may as well mention that Sporting have tweaked the spread on their seat numbers up to 53-57. I wouldn't buy or sell at that level, but I do think it is inconsistent with the Betfair market on Most Seats Without Labour, where the LDs are available at 4.5 (7/2 in old money.)
That looks like a back to me, but I may be talking my own book a bit.
Thoughts anyone?
I think the prices of 4.5 for LDs greater than CON, 6 for CON seats less than 50 and middle of LD seat spread at 55 are consistent. I can't see arbitrage.
17% chance that CON seats is less than 50 seats. 22% chance that CON seats is less than LD seats (middle 55 seats).
I've got £900 on Con as second party. I fervently hope to lose. What a turn up it would be. Worth £900.
Government benches crammed to over flowing with Labour. LDs as official opposition facing them. A few dozen Tories in the corner with a few SNP and other odds and sods. Yes definitely worth £900.
And if it doesn't happen, well I have some financial compensation.
PS I don't often bet this way but I couldn't resist it.
I have that bet as a complement to my spread buy of LD seats. Both can't lose but both can (and likely will) win. Plus if the exchange bet loses it will (almost certainly) mean I've made a turbo profit of many times more on the spread bet.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
So Britain will be able to rely on the taxes you pay, as a failed writer living on his own in a bed sit in Aberdeen shouting incoherently at motorcycles. That’s at least £6.87 a year. Should cover the NHS, no problem
Being a failed writer is a hobby. I've never sought any income for my failed writings. For actual work I'm a failed project manager. I manage failing projects or I take on well-run projects and cause them to fail. For this, I'm suitably rewarded. My total tax paid to the government last year was probably well into double figures.
If you have a failing project you'd like me to manage, please get in touch. my rates are surprisingly reasonable.
Not all of us need the money from our writings, either. Or at least I don't any more. Quite luxurious not having to pander to editors any longer, and to spend time on stuff that doesn't all too often instantly go into the recycling bin or the electronic equivalent.
You're lucky to even have had an editor. My writing is so bad it usually catches fire before I've finished a page. I think it's some kind of divine warning for me to stop. I don't stop. One day I'll get it in tact into the hands of a respected editor, then await the knock on the door. If I'm lucky, it'll be the police. More likely, it'll be the clergy.
More a matter of reportage in my case, the editors being periodical rather than literary editors!
But things have changed so much in the last 50 years anyway.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
You can read this any way you are inclined: Top people are in effect generous philanthropists; broadest shoulders, greatest burden; they are paid scandalously too highly; it should be 50% not 30%; the rest of us are massively undertaxed. But most will conclude, I think, that more of us should be paid a great deal more so that we can head towards joining their unfortunate ranks.
I already pay an effective tax rate of 53% on all my income, probably the highest on here, so in for a penny in for a pound.
Doubt it. My earnings gross last year would have been over £50k and so seen me have a marginal rate of over 70% (40% tax 2% NI ~28% Child Benefit withdrawal £250 marriage allowance withdrawal) if I hadn't put the difference into additional pension voluntary contributions through salary sacrifice. Few do.
Not marginal rate. Total rate across all my earnings.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing
Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?
The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.
When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.
I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.
As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.
And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
Go away then. Go be morose in Dubai or the UAE or Saudi or Monaco. You've done your bit and taken your share. Hand your passport in and live a new unmoored life as a tax exile unencumbered by social norms. You could even meet up with our resident shit and chat about the wrongs of CGT.
Just don't come back if you need a new hip or your liver stops working or a Gulf sheikh acting in rational self interest has confiscated your cash.
I’ve probably paid more in tax to the UK than you’ve earned in total
So I’ll do what I like, within the law
By your own account you're already something of a tax exile ?
But agreed, it's rather counterproductive to berate you for that.
Equally, if you do become a permanent exile, your ongoing stake in our politics (not that it will, or should bother you) is seriously diminished.
The last point is true to an extent, I can actually feel myself caring less about the UK and about UK politics. Its a definite thing
However I will still care quite a lot because I have lots of friends and family in the UK - most of all my elder daughter
I want what’s best for them so I will still be emotionally invested
Your predicament reminds me of the White Russians when Lenin took over.
A lot of them came here - to Odessa - funnily enough. Then they moved on
The life of an exile can often be sad, morose, lonely, drunken. That’s why I’ve been experimenting with it for the last year or two. Spending more than 50% of my time abroad
Turns out I rather like it, sometimes I absolutely love it. But I only like it because I can keep moving. Seeing things and meeting people. I would become that sad lonely drunk if I was marooned on Phuket for 12 months out of 12
So I intend to keep moving and only keep the lightest foothold in some useful hub that I can call a kind of home for the few weeks/months I am there
It’s not a life for everyone or even most people. True nomadism. Most people like a nest
What do Alex Chalk, Mims Davies, Neil Hudson and Chris Loder have in common?
They're the only Tory MPs who don't have a Reform or Reform-endorsed SDP (there are some local deals where Reform endorsed SDP candidates) candidate running against them.
If Farage were to drop a bombshell that one of those four had defected to Reform during the campaign and they'd deliberately not run a candidate in that constituency so they could endorse him, which one do you think it would be and can anyone find a market for defections?
It won’t be Chalk. And he will be losing to the Libs anyway sadly.
Hudson is a lucky general! (Rare among Tories). MP for Penrith and Border, rejected by the new boundaries seat (Penrith and Solway) in favour of the man from Workington, this seat will go Labour. He now stands a decent chance. He's OK, and the only vet in the commons.
What do Alex Chalk, Mims Davies, Neil Hudson and Chris Loder have in common?
They're the only Tory MPs who don't have a Reform or Reform-endorsed SDP (there are some local deals where Reform endorsed SDP candidates) candidate running against them.
If Farage were to drop a bombshell that one of those four had defected to Reform during the campaign and they'd deliberately not run a candidate in that constituency so they could endorse him, which one do you think it would be and can anyone find a market for defections?
It won’t be Chalk. And he will be losing to the Libs anyway sadly.
Hudson is a lucky general! (Rare among Tories). MP for Penrith and Border, rejected by the new boundaries seat (Penrith and Solway) in favour of the man from Workington, this seat will go Labour. He now stands a decent chance. He's OK, and the only vet in the commons.
There will be another vet in the House - Lib Dem Danny Chambers in Winchester.
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
250k UK citizens have moved to Dubai in the last few years. Its happening already.
Given that UK citizens emigrating is about 100k per year in total, you probably need to qualify "in the last few years".
Er, in the last year 532,000 people emigrated from the UK
ONS:
“1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 532,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 685,000. This represents the balance of long-term migrants moving in and out of the country.”
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
250k UK citizens have moved to Dubai in the last few years. Its happening already.
Given that UK citizens emigrating is about 100k per year in total, you probably need to qualify "in the last few years".
Er, in the last year 532,000 people emigrated from the UK
ONS:
“1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 532,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 685,000. This represents the balance of long-term migrants moving in and out of the country.”
Exactly, and then because that's what FrancisUrquhart lead with. Just sticking to the terms of the conversation is apparently enough to make Leon dizzy and fall over.
I don’t say you were wrong I was pointing out the absurdly narrow focus of your argument. On top of 100,000 uk emigrants 400,000 others left. Who were they? How many were long term residents who actually paid a lot of tax? And how many of the trillions of incomers are going to be a net drain on the treasury, instead?
I fear the details won’t be good for UK PLC
The tax system is very harsh on writers who get big sums then very little for potentially years.
James Herriot's sons autobiography of him recounts how during the Labour 74-79 era he handed the vast majority of his book earnings to the treasury and attempted to contact the only other well earning writer who was still in the country only to find that he too had bolted.
I believe in lower taxes generally, but I am not against contributing a little more at the moment, if it helps kick start our economy and improve services. My fear is that unless you tackle the structural problems in our economy, it’s not going to make much difference.
But Labour deserve a chance. That’s what I’ve believed for some time. I will give them a fair hearing and I will see how things look in a few years time.
The better off have to be soaked, because someone has to pay for the upkeep of our increasingly elderly and decrepit population, and you're not going to get much more by squeezing and squeezing the wages of low and middle income earners until they scream for mercy. That said, you can understand the butt hurt being expressed by better off people who claim that higher taxes on their investments are simply punishment for working hard. That's not the intention of whatever tax rises or allowance reductions are likely coming after the election, even if it feels like it to them. We can't afford to give in to special pleading on the subject, but perhaps we can afford to give them a bit of space to vent rather than simply telling them to make sure that the door hits them full in the arse on the way out?
The bigger problem in all of this is that any revenue raising measures that do come will, ultimately, be insufficiently broad based and fail to raise enough cash to start to deal with all of our problems, because they are almost bound to ignore residential property. Crudely put, the Theresa May experience taught us that the only way to deal with the gigantic health and social care problem is to tax houses more and, simultaneously, you can't tax houses more because the population, especially the expensive to keep old people who also control most of the property wealth, will revolt if you try to do it. This problem seems, to me, to be fundamentally insoluble in a democratic system.
It's simply the laffer curve in action.
I was expecting to make disposals next year which would incur £300k-ish in cgt at 20%
Which is more tax than many will pay in their entire life, and I was quite happy to do it.
If as predicted that becomes 40-45% next year, I can bugger off on holiday for five years, spending fifty grand a year wibbling about and having fun not working. And _still_ have more money left over than if I had paid the UK cgt bill at 40%
Economics is simply rational choice theory. I want to pay tax and contribute to the UK economy and indeed I have paid more in tax than most people ever will.
I'm talking about being willing to pay 300k in tax next year. How much do some of the bedsit posters in here pay in tax, if they pay any at all? 10k a year? I'm prepared to pay 30 years of sad bedsit Farooq poster tax in a single year. And more again the year after. At 20%
At 40% it's worth my while becoming a listless grumpy gammony tax exile working on my tan in Pattaya. But I don't want that to happen. I want the government to tax me a sensible amount, and I want to pay a sensible amount.
Anyone else in this thread want to own up to being happy to pay 300k in tax next year?
No?
I hope some of the people in this thread telling me to eff off and pay nothing then, enjoy it when I actually eff off and pay nothing.
Well said
And then you’re accused of being “unpatriotic” by feckless losers who have probably been a net drain on HMRC all their wanky lives. Fuck em
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
250k UK citizens have moved to Dubai in the last few years. Its happening already.
Given that UK citizens emigrating is about 100k per year in total, you probably need to qualify "in the last few years".
Er, in the last year 532,000 people emigrated from the UK
ONS:
“1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 532,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 685,000. This represents the balance of long-term migrants moving in and out of the country.”
Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
But not CGT from other avenues.
Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.
Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.
Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)
So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.
Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
How much of the income do they get?
It doesn’t matter if half of them fuck off. Suddenly you’ve got an ENORMOUS hole in already stretched HMG finances, and Britain is bankrupt. Bravo
I tired of rich people holding the country hostage. I say, tax them more. I'm willing to bet most of them stay put. Most people have friends and family and lives here. Uprooting your life is a huge time and emotional cost. It most cases it won't be worth the trouble. I say, bring it on.
250k UK citizens have moved to Dubai in the last few years. Its happening already.
Given that UK citizens emigrating is about 100k per year in total, you probably need to qualify "in the last few years".
Er, in the last year 532,000 people emigrated from the UK
ONS:
“1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 532,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 685,000. This represents the balance of long-term migrants moving in and out of the country.”
Exactly, and then because that's what FrancisUrquhart lead with. Just sticking to the terms of the conversation is apparently enough to make Leon dizzy and fall over.
I don’t say you were wrong I was pointing out the absurdly narrow focus of your argument. On top of 100,000 uk emigrants 400,000 others left. Who were they? How many were long term residents who actually paid a lot of tax? And how many of the trillions of incomers are going to be a net drain on the treasury, instead?
I fear the details won’t be good for UK PLC
The tax system is very harsh on writers who get big sums then very little for potentially years.
James Herriot's sons autobiography of him recounts how during the Labour 74-79 era he handed the vast majority of his book earnings to the treasury and attempted to contact the only other well earning writer who was still in the country only to find that he too had bolted.
It was iirc George Osborne who put a stop to authors being able to spread their earnings over several years
p.s. be sure to pass this back to your masters in CCHQ
Comments
I first learned about card-counting in connection with a chess player, Larry Byrne, who used to clean up in the casinos between matches many years ago. Chess players tend to have the kind of mental skills that enables them to remember cards and calculate odds quickly. In those days, the casinos used six packs of cards per table. The MIT team demonstrated that that was nowhere near enough.
I seem to recall that when the Monaco authorities found out what the kids were up to, they made them an offer that simply couldn't be refused.
Clacton is the Brighton and Margate of 40 years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/@TILT223
However it will likely be the small entrepreneurs who get kicked as extracting money out of the large corporations is much harder.
So I’ll do what I like, within the law
But I don't see why we can't criticise their lack of patriotism; they're just sore losers. If they loved their country, they'd stay. And if they're not happy with their tax rates, they're more than welcome to campaign for a change of government.
As I said, its a really tricky problem that many western countries are struggling with.
Savanta for the Sunday Telegraph teased with 'let's just say there's been some movement' (was Reforms lowest and one of the Tories and Labour better ones last time)
Should be a Deltapoll in the Mail, huge Lab lead last time
Opinium in the Observer will be their first to constituency prompt in this GE
If what you're saying is you don't want that money, then yes, I'm more than happy to eff off out of the country and go somewhere else.
The amount of money I save will more than pay for a hip replacement - which, by the way, most middle class retirees are paying for our of pocket in the UK anyway given nhs waiting lists.
I wish the sheik the best of luck confiscating the wealth I hold in the crown dependencies. The UK, of course, is no stranger to loopholes and global tax avoidance.
I'm asking to pay a sensible rate of tax. Not a punitive one.
Smells distinctly of 1970s "tax the rich till the pips squeak" in here today, and we all know how that one worked out last time it was tried.
I'll have to prepare my bib, like the Neapolitan men I've seen gorging on Bolognese.
"how undergraduates at top US universities start companies at more than 5x the rate of their British-educated peers. Oxford is ranked 50th in the world, while Cambridge is 61st. Imperial just makes the list at #100. I have been thinking a lot about why this is. The UK certainly doesn’t lack the talent or education, and I don’t think it’s any longer about access to capital."
https://tomblomfield.com/post/750852175114174464/taking-risk
Its actually something that is not getting talked about during immigration debate. 1+ million people in, ~0.5 million out. Its record in, and record out. Who are these people, how skilled are they, why are they leaving? I think a good chunk will be students, but would be interesting to know the break down.
People that leave America cause they don’t like its polarised politics and gun culture, the hideous debate on abortion and the grave inequality, are they all lacking in patriotism?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/15/we-offer-the-most-ambitious-change-ed-davey-vows-to-push-a-labour-government-for-radical-action
200k on every million? Fine. I'm prepared to pay it and I'm doing my part. If that gets doubled next year, I will a) be off for obvious reasons but b) feel bad because I was perfectly happy paying the 200k. It's right that, being richer, I pay more. but there's a huge difference between paying more and being taken for a ride. It's similar to the arguments about being on benefits paying more than work. Tax is about altering behaviour - and the behaviour the UK government needs from people like me is to tax us just enough to maximize their tax take without taxing us so much we bugger off. 20% is about right. At 40%, I have better options.
I have probably paid more tax than most people on this board - and I've paid it gladly. But there is a threshold beyond which it's simply throwing money away.
The ONS estimates that 300,000 people have an income of more than £200k, IIRC
The simple truth is even if you dug an extra 5 to 10% tax out of the top 10% its not going to be nearly enough for all the public services you think need extra funding. It will also need probably a few% on the higher rate and a couple of percent on the basic rate plus fiscal drag.
You might say thats fine but then you keep telling us basic rate tax payers often have to use food banks and you want to take more money of them in tax
But agreed, it's rather counterproductive to berate you for that.
Equally, if you do become a permanent exile, your ongoing stake in our politics (not that it will, or should bother you) is seriously diminished.
17% chance that CON seats is less than 50 seats.
22% chance that CON seats is less than LD seats (middle 55 seats).
I've got £900 on Con as second party. I fervently hope to lose. What a turn up it would be. Worth £900.
Government benches crammed to over flowing with Labour. LDs as official opposition facing them. A few dozen Tories in the corner with a few SNP and other odds and sods. Yes definitely worth £900.
And if it doesn't happen, well I have some financial compensation.
PS I don't often bet this way but I couldn't resist it.
PS - you know you'll really miss Camden and Primrose Hill. Those views over London, "the greatest city on earth" (Leon).
ONS:
“1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 532,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 685,000. This represents the balance of long-term migrants moving in and out of the country.”
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06077/
I expect this to be mostly puff and when they wake up on July 5th and find that the sun is shining, the earth is turning, and people are going about their lives most of them will shrug their shoulders and remain.
The UK is still a very attractive place to be based, hence why so many wish to come to these shores. And yes you can still get hips and livers on the NHS thanks @Tweedledee The tories may have (deliberately) run down public services and then shouted, ‘oh look how crap they are’ but they will gradually improve under Labour.
I’m old enough (just) to remember all this guff in the run-up to 1997.
And then people like Leon discovered that actually living under a New Labour Government was really rather Cool.
I would like to know the break down of their incomes, what they do for a living etc. A good chunk of EU / RoW will be students, but have we already been seeing a brain / capital drain?
myself caring less about the UK and about UK politics. Its a definite thing
However I will still care quite a lot because I have lots of friends and family in the UK - most of all my elder daughter
I want what’s best for them so I will still be emotionally invested
The kind of provision for retirement the government was supposedly encouraging.
The point is that if you slam on CGT, then going offshore makes sense when you realise the gains.
There are no affirmative and discussible issues of real substance about the direction of the national future dividing the parties. This is not an election in which one party is "Abolish the armed forces, pay as you go for health care" and the other is saying "abolish schools and ban the internet while declaring war on China". So there is nothing but speculation to talk about. This is boring in the end.
Opinion polls when there are so many are no longer special, except for the sorts of people who follow PB.
There are no charismatic speakers, and the nearest thing, Mr Toad of Farage Hall, is a known quantity and has nothing new to offer.
The most effective campaigning, apparently, happens invisibly on smartphones, not in newspapers, telly and the streets.
It's cold.
The bigger problem in all of this is that any revenue raising measures that do come will, ultimately, be insufficiently broad based and fail to raise enough cash to start to deal with all of our problems, because they are almost bound to ignore residential property. Crudely put, the Theresa May experience taught us that the only way to deal with the gigantic health and social care problem is to tax houses more and, simultaneously, you can't tax houses more because the population, especially the expensive to keep old people who also control most of the property wealth, will revolt if you try to do it. This problem seems, to me, to be fundamentally insoluble in a democratic system.
You were a successful writer once Sean but, as you know only too well, the country moved on from your tawdry tales of male sexual predation and it left you behind. So you changed your name not once, not twice, but at least three times to try and get back to bestselling books.
When that didn’t work you became an embittered old fool who, instead of holding a mirror up to himself, blamed the world that left him behind.
Opinium, probably a similar Con Ref move so lead maybe unchanged?
Poll sex. Love it
If it’s the former, drinks on you next time.
If basic rate taxpayers, presumably nearer the £12,570 rather than the £50,270, have to use food banks then make adjustments. It's a political choice, which both main parties have said they won't make.
Leicester East has a surprising number of Orange diamonds in gardens. One billboard for the Labour party candidate, Claudia Webbe's office looks as deserted as it has been for 4 years, but looks as if the windows have been cleaned. Keith Vaz's office plastered in posters and looked busy. Nothing visible for the Tories or other parties and Independents.
The city centre had active street stalls for animal rights, a Pentacostal Church, Muslims and Hare Krishnas but nothing political that I could see.
Leicester South has a lot of posters up for Shockhat (Pro Gaza Independent) and a single Labour poster in a shop in hipster Queens Rd. I know for sure that Jonathan Ashworth wasn't out canvassing as he was in the next chair to me at the barbers. He seemed in good spirits and seemed to have some media appearances planned as was chatting away to the barber about these. I had a brief chat to him at the till, and he seemed in good cheer but not taking anything or any voter for granted.
Likely 2 Labour holds IMO, but I have a few quid on Vaz at 41, and I think Shockat will keep his deposit and perhaps more in Leicester South.
Spitting Image had a sketch of him -slightly unhinged - screaming that he would 'leave the country if Labour won'. Followed by a continuity announcer stating "that was a political party broadcast from the Labour Party" 😂
I fear the details won’t be good for UK PLC
Personally I am part time now, which keeps me below £50k. Before I was stuffing huge amounts into Pension additional voluntary contributions. Don't mind paying 28% but damned if I will pay 70% marginal rate in tax and child benefit withrawals. So by trying to get 70% off me instead of 28% they get 0%.
There are similar things happening at £100k with childcare/personal allowance cliff.
The last two years have seen inflation matching benefit rises of 10% and 8% with tax allowances. on those working (and getting much lower pay rises) to pay for it.
So people are changing sides. A huge amount of those claiming working age sickness benefits are for conditions with a subjective diagnosis (backache/mental health condition). Only 16% were turned down.
Do I blame them. No. If I had no qualifications and rented and the choice was go on the sick, get my rent paid, get a stipend, get cost of living payments, get 75% of council tax paid, pay social utility rates, get a free mobility car...
...or get an unpleasant McJob that involved being treated poorly and unsocial night shifts and having 25% more cash at the end of it if I was lucky, I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same (that is before taking into account cash in hand receipts for the former).
So tax and benefit rises are already turning net contributors into net receivers. More of the same from Labour is the path to Bankruptcy
Harper and MacKay announce deal to unite the right
- https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/harper-and-mackay-announce-deal-to-unite-the-right-1.391784
I follow your logic but I don't think 5/1 [17%] is right for Tories <50. Baxter is putting them at 80 and he doesn't allow for Tactical Voting. (Doesn't allow for Swingback either, but there has been as much sign of Swingaway as Swingback.) So under <50 is no great stretch. I'd call it a 25% chance {3/1) at least. And if that comes in, LDs will definitely be ahead of them.
Anyway, I holding my LD position and buying the 4.5 on SED as LOTO.
* I was astonished when Sunak called it for 4th July, and thought it was a mistake then. I now realise that he was ignoring the major soccer tournament that has just started. People are just not going to be bothered with politics. That's not ideal for a Party that has to make up 20 points. Itstrikes me that this is another indication of his poor political antennae, and insensitivity towards the electorate generally.
I was expecting to make disposals next year which would incur £300k-ish in cgt at 20%
Which is more tax than many will pay in their entire life, and I was quite happy to do it.
If as predicted that becomes 40-45% next year, I can bugger off on holiday for five years, spending fifty grand a year wibbling about and having fun not working. And _still_ have more money left over than if I had paid the UK cgt bill at 40%
Economics is simply rational choice theory. I want to pay tax and contribute to the UK economy and indeed I have paid more in tax than most people ever will.
I'm talking about being willing to pay 300k in tax next year. How much do some of the bedsit posters in here pay in tax, if they pay any at all? 10k a year? I'm prepared to pay 30 years of sad bedsit Farooq poster tax in a single year. And more again the year after. At 20%
At 40% it's worth my while becoming a listless grumpy gammony tax exile working on my tan in Pattaya. But I don't want that to happen. I want the government to tax me a sensible amount, and I want to pay a sensible amount.
Anyone else in this thread want to own up to being happy to pay 300k in tax next year?
No?
I hope some of the people in this thread telling me to eff off and pay nothing then, enjoy it when I actually eff off and pay nothing.
But things have changed so much in the last 50 years anyway.
The life of an exile can often be sad, morose, lonely, drunken. That’s why I’ve been experimenting with it for the last year or two. Spending more than 50% of my time abroad
Turns out I rather like it, sometimes I absolutely love it. But I only like it because I can keep moving. Seeing things and meeting people. I would become that sad lonely drunk if I was marooned on Phuket for 12 months out of 12
So I intend to keep moving and only keep the lightest foothold in some useful hub that I can call a kind of home for the few weeks/months I am there
It’s not a life for everyone or even most people. True nomadism. Most people like a nest
James Herriot's sons autobiography of him recounts how during the Labour 74-79 era he handed the vast majority of his book earnings to the treasury and attempted to contact the only other well earning writer who was still in the country only to find that he too had bolted.
But Labour deserve a chance. That’s what I’ve believed for some time. I will give them a fair hearing and I will see how things look in a few years time.
And then you’re accused of being “unpatriotic” by feckless losers who have probably been a net drain on HMRC all their wanky lives. Fuck em
p.s. be sure to pass this back to your masters in CCHQ