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Lib Dems! Winning here? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,428
edited June 2024 in General
imageLib Dems! Winning here? – politicalbetting.com

Rishi Sunak's 'unfavourable' rating is now at its highest level everFavourable: 21% (-3 from 4-5 Jun)Unfavourable: 72% (+2)https://t.co/ziVA6BwJE6 pic.twitter.com/lkQb7ADWRf

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Comments

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,939
    edited June 2024
    First.
    Won here!!
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,818
    I'd say 42-49 looks at the low end of about right to me.
  • SKS is seeing something of a Corbyn 2017 effect.

    And Rishi Sunak is seeing something of a May 2017 effect but just a lot worse. Is he the most popular PM on record yet?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,423
    edited June 2024
    Carnyx said:

    You're picking variables to try and accuse me of lying.

    I wasn't talking aboiut a county but about a town. And not just over ten years either, but my lifetime. If it gets any bigger then we will end up with the sort of problems you will have when only houses are built without facilities near by. That's already a point of contention.

    If this is the way you treat people who are already fairly sympathetic then I'm going to go and vote bloody LD as a result.
    So sympathetic you back any excuse to prevent construction?

    There is a chronic housing shortage today, not years from now, but right now. Here and now, people living in this country - both migrants, people born here, old people and young people, who need a home and there are not enough of them.

    Waiting for Godot to sort out every problem prior to building houses is not a solution when the people who need the houses are already in this country today.

    You need to build the houses and build the facilities. Right here, right now.

    If its expanded over a lifetime, then there's been a lifetime to build new facilities too - but either way its not enough to reverse the chronic housing shortage that already exists. So sorry "build elsewhere" is not a solution, that's what every NIMBY wants, we need millions of homes and that means building everywhere. Immediately, without delays.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,581
    It'd take a very brave person to spread bet on Reform, wouldn't it?

    I mean, I think they're a sell but the potential reward is tiny compared to the risk that Con really implodes and they become a viable right wing stop Labour option.

    Is anyone on Reform on the spreads? I would like to raise a figurative hat to your chutzpah if so.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,189
    The real news from the Labour Party manifesto launch is buried away on page 103.

    Labour is committed to reducing gambling-related harm. Recognising the evolution of the gambling landscape since 2005, Labour will reform gambling regulation, strengthening protections. We will continue to work with the industry on how to ensure responsible gambling.
    https://labour.org.uk/change/build-an-nhs-fit-for-the-future/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,502
    Other than one Yougov poll, I’m not seeing a rise in the Lib Dem’s.

    Starmer’s rating is rising because people see him as a winner. OTOH, people see Sunak as a loser.
  • Also, I do think the polling is not really showing any trouble for Labour. The 47 and 50 scores always seemed too high. Around 40-43% is where we will end up and the polls are going that direction.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    Labour Manifesto Part 3
    Break down the barriers to opportunity
    • ‘Review’ universal credit
    • ‘take initial steps’ to confront poverty, protect renters from arbitrary eviction, slash fuel poverty, ban ‘exploitative’ zero hours contracts (note – is this that they are exploitative by nature, or only some are?)
    • Enact proposals on leasehold enfranchisement, right to manage, and commonhold.
    • 3000 more nurseries through space in primary schools.
    • End VAT exemption for private schools.
    • 6500 teachers. Will tackle retention issues (note – how?)
    • Excellence in leadership programme to mentor headteachers to improve schools.
    • Limit number of branded items of uniform and PE kit that schools can require.
    • Mental health professionals in every school (note – so far I think everyone has promises this, or nearly this).
    • Technical Excellent Colleges to provide better job opportunities.
    • Reform apprenticeships levy.
    • Public museums to increase collection loans to communities.
    • National music education network.
    • Independent Football Regulator.
    • Disability and ethnicity pay gap reporting.
    • Conversion therapy ban.
    • ‘simplify’ gender recognition law which is intrusive, but retain need for diagnosis (note – unclear what they are doing then?)

    Build an NHS fit for the future
    • Another ‘former conservative voter’ photo
    • Labour founded the NHS, it is not broken, and not due to Covid. ‘Winter crisis’ now normal (note – it is finally true, though I’m sure this was the media reporting when I was growing up too). Labour will save the NHS.
    • Lot of stuff about changing how the NHS works, but not all of it can have been due to Tories, so admission things were not all well?
    • 18 weeks from referral to treatment of non urgent matters.
    • 40k more appointments every week
    • ‘reset’ relations with staff by moving away from Tory approach (note – no detail. In what way will you move away?)
    • New Hospitals Programme.
    • Fit for the future fund to double CT and MI scanners.
    • Too many not treated with respect in medicine (note – is that the Tories’ fault too?)
    • Thousands more midwives.
    • Royal college of clinical leadership.
    • Implement Cass review.
    • Thousands more GPs
    • Community pharmacists to have more prescribing rights.
    • 700k more urgent detail appointments. Reform dental contract, focus on prevention (note – such an innovation!)
    • Social care needs reform – national care service. Fair pay agreement in adult social care. Will consult widely on it before implementing. Guarantee rights of those in residential care to see their families.
    • 8500 new staff to treat mental health. Mental Health Act discriminates against black people.
    • Next generation not able to buy cigarettes.
    • ‘work with industry on how to ensure responsible gambling’ (note – nothing of substance mentioned)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    Sean_F said:

    Other than one Yougov poll, I’m not seeing a rise in the Lib Dem’s.

    Starmer’s rating is rising because people see him as a winner. OTOH, people see Sunak as a loser.

    It's as simple as that. And LDs are pootling along in their usual way, with Davey doing his best to get attention.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,788
    DON’T say I didn’t warn you


    “Aliens May Already Live on Earth, Harvard Researchers Say”

    https://www.newsweek.com/alien-life-extraterrestrial-living-earth-harvard-1912264
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,189
    maxh said:

    It'd take a very brave person to spread bet on Reform, wouldn't it?

    I mean, I think they're a sell but the potential reward is tiny compared to the risk that Con really implodes and they become a viable right wing stop Labour option.

    Is anyone on Reform on the spreads? I would like to raise a figurative hat to your chutzpah if so.

    Any bet on RefUK wins or loses on vote efficiency. They need to find out from the LibDems how to get lots of MPs from the same share of the vote. (Tories too, the way the polls are going!) As things are, their likely result is one if they are lucky.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,680
    Sean_F said:

    Other than one Yougov poll, I’m not seeing a rise in the Lib Dem’s.

    Starmer’s rating is rising because people see him as a winner. OTOH, people see Sunak as a loser.

    Since Farage became ReFuk leader the LDs are averaging 10% across all polls; was 9% up to that point.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,636
    maxh said:

    It'd take a very brave person to spread bet on Reform, wouldn't it?

    I mean, I think they're a sell but the potential reward is tiny compared to the risk that Con really implodes and they become a viable right wing stop Labour option.

    Is anyone on Reform on the spreads? I would like to raise a figurative hat to your chutzpah if so.

    Absolutely right.

    I had a good look at it a week or so ago, and the risk/reward ratio is frightening.

    I'm a buyer of LDs now. That's fairly low risk.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    Labour Manifesto Part 4
    Serving the country
    • Partying in Downing Street mentioned.
    • SNP as bad as Tories (note – implied)
    • Labour transformed from party of protest (note – we’re not Corbyn anymore!)
    • Ethics and Integrity Commission, restrict lobbying for ex ministers.
    • Modernisation Committee to reform procedures and improve working practices (note – I’m 100% sure committees like this exist or have existed before)
    • Ban on taking up paid advisory roles for MPs.
    • ‘Immediate modernisation’ of Lords – end hereditary peers and mandate retirement age, 80 years. Participation requirement, make removal easier. Committed to new second chamber more representative of regions and nations (note – small scale, but worthwhile start without wasting time on wholesale change right way – much vaguer on second chamber than previous manifestos)
    • 16 year old votes.
    • Address inconsistencies in voter ID rules (note – not abolishing? Interesting)
    • Council of Nations and Regions (note - includes mayors of combined authorities, which seems a bit grand for them)
    • Wales and Scotland – basically they will work with both etc
    • NI – repeal legacy act, implement Windsor framework in full.
    Britain reconnected
    • Unshakeable commitment to NATO
    • Confident outside EU, but leading nation in continent again. Make Brexit work. (note – such a 2019 slogan)
    • No return to single market, customs union or freedom of movement.
    • UK-EU security pact
    • Military strategic headquarters and national armaments director for stronger defence centre.
    • Committed to AUKUS, Ukraine, protecting Falklands.
    • 1st mission to regrow economy. Trade strategy published, seek sector specific deals.
    • Immediate ceasefire in Gaza. Statehood inalienable right not in gift of neighbour (well, technically it is for everyone – if you are not recognised you are not a state)
    • 0.7% for international aid ‘ as soon as fiscal circumstances allow’ (note – the same as the Tory pledge I believe).
    Labour’s fiscal plan
    • Fiscal rules are non-negotiable and will apply to every decision.
    • Budget must move into balance.
    • Table of finances included - could be nonsense, I have no way of knowing
    • Also Green prosperity plan funded in part by windfall tax, an changes in departmental spending. Includes halving consultancy spend (note – I doubt that is easy or it’d already be done).
    Change
    • In case you’d forgotten the theme, a final section to say stop the chaos, turn the page, start to rebuild, and that this manifesto is the plan.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,788

    Labour leads by 24%.

    Lowest EVER Conservative % (worse than Truss).

    Highest Lib Dem % in 2024.

    🇬🇧 Westminster Voting Intention (12-13 June):

    Labour 42% (-3)
    Conservative 18% (-1)
    Reform 17% (–)
    Lib Dem 13% (+3)
    Green 5% (–)
    SNP 3% (–)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 7-10 June


    https://x.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1801291564997636520

    What a weird election, another notable slip in the Labour VI, yet they remain miles ahead

    Reform need some major new breakthrough
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085

    Labour leads by 24%.

    Lowest EVER Conservative % (worse than Truss).

    Highest Lib Dem % in 2024.

    🇬🇧 Westminster Voting Intention (12-13 June):

    Labour 42% (-3)
    Conservative 18% (-1)
    Reform 17% (–)
    Lib Dem 13% (+3)
    Green 5% (–)
    SNP 3% (–)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 7-10 June


    https://x.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1801291564997636520

    Ooof that’s close to Con-Ref crossover!
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,302

    Labour leads by 24%.

    Lowest EVER Conservative % (worse than Truss).

    Highest Lib Dem % in 2024.

    🇬🇧 Westminster Voting Intention (12-13 June):

    Labour 42% (-3)
    Conservative 18% (-1)
    Reform 17% (–)
    Lib Dem 13% (+3)
    Green 5% (–)
    SNP 3% (–)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 7-10 June


    https://x.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1801291564997636520

    The move from Lab to LD indicated by another poll.

    Crossover sooooo close again.
  • MuesliMuesli Posts: 202
    Is it not a bit odd that YouGov sought favourability ratings for Carla Denyer and Richard Tice (who isn't even Reform UK leader now) and not Sir Ed Davey? And Vaughan Gething but nobody else from either Wales or Scotland? Do they have a fixed list of names from the main two parties and then draw a few wildcards out of a hat?
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,581

    Any bet on RefUK wins or loses on vote efficiency. They need to find out from the LibDems how to get lots of MPs from the same share of the vote. (Tories too, the way the polls are going!) As things are, their likely result is one if they are lucky.
    Agreed, that's why I'd sell them.

    But presumably there is a percentage above which they suddenly take a whole bunch of previously safe Con seats. Very very unlikely they reach that level, I admit, but the risk/reward in the
    spreads just seems... off-putting.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568

    Labour leads by 24%.

    Lowest EVER Conservative % (worse than Truss).

    Highest Lib Dem % in 2024.

    🇬🇧 Westminster Voting Intention (12-13 June):

    Labour 42% (-3)
    Conservative 18% (-1)
    Reform 17% (–)
    Lib Dem 13% (+3)
    Green 5% (–)
    SNP 3% (–)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 7-10 June


    https://x.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1801291564997636520

    Every day that passes extinction becomes more probable for the Tories. Another week of this and sub 100 will be the standard expectation.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,302
    Do Reform actually have a manifesto/launch etc? Last big chance to try and cannibalise the Tory vote?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,636

    Labour leads by 24%.

    Lowest EVER Conservative % (worse than Truss).

    Highest Lib Dem % in 2024.

    🇬🇧 Westminster Voting Intention (12-13 June):

    Labour 42% (-3)
    Conservative 18% (-1)
    Reform 17% (–)
    Lib Dem 13% (+3)
    Green 5% (–)
    SNP 3% (–)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 7-10 June


    https://x.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1801291564997636520

    Now be honest, TSE, did you know that before you wrote the thread piece?

    Tell the truth and shame the devil.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    Leon said:

    What a weird election, another notable slip in the Labour VI, yet they remain miles ahead

    Reform need some major new breakthrough
    Nah, destroying the Tories will be enough for them - any surviving Tory MPs will go full scale Farage even if there are only a few Reform MPs.

    Heck, they might make him deputy leader in exchange for a formal merger.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    So sympathetic you back any excuse to prevent construction?

    There is a chronic housing shortage today, not years from now, but right now. Here and now, people living in this country - both migrants, people born here, old people and young people, who need a home and there are not enough of them.

    Waiting for Godot to sort out every problem prior to building houses is not a solution when the people who need the houses are already in this country today.

    You need to build the houses and build the facilities. Right here, right now.

    If its expanded over a lifetime, then there's been a lifetime to build new facilities too - but either way its not enough to reverse the chronic housing shortage that already exists. So sorry "build elsewhere" is not a solution, that's what every NIMBY wants, we need millions of homes and that means building everywhere. Immediately, without delays.
    I'm not the one who has been objecting. Can't you get that into your head? But my place is now so bigt it needs a new bloody town centre or two. And you need planning for that.

    And you have the discourtesy to treat me like the shit you want to see overflowing from your new estates becvause you don't believe in planning.

    No wonder we get Nimbies when we have libertarians like you.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,938
    edited June 2024
    Re; the Ultraterrestrial paper, it's quite interesting.

    The "as yet to be peer reviewed" is nevertheless a hint of amusement, a bit like Wikipedia's "Citation Needed." At the same time, we could be in for some surprises in the next few decades on this topic, though. I don't think most people have adjusted to , or are aware of the greater expert interest in the topic, at the moment.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Thanks so much for the Apple Watch advice folks (other thread). Very much appreciated xx
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,244
    Beyond_Topline is very good - I've been following him for a while. Would be fascinated to learn who he is.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    Labour Manifesto Conclusion
    Dense text, could have used some bullet pointing of key pledges more often. Hard to get into what is proposed sometimes. Lots of ‘will reform’ with no more detail, and lots of unnecessary fluff.

    I don’t fully believe some of the stuff around housing in it, but it is more realistic and positive about it than any manifesto so far, which is good. Very little on climate, which surprised me. Punchy on foreign policy and policing.

    Most of it was far too long, with a lot of caveated phrasing.

    Call it a C-. Functional, but I didn’t feel like I learned much from it.

    On a minor point, honestly the SDP’s rather loony manifesto was the best in relation to clear headings. Everyone else has weird, tortured chapter headings instead of just ‘Energy’ ‘Local Government’ ‘Industry’ etc.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,840

    SKS is seeing something of a Corbyn 2017 effect.

    And Rishi Sunak is seeing something of a May 2017 effect but just a lot worse. Is he the most popular PM on record yet?

    I don't think either of them really compare with 2017. When that election was called, May initially got a bounce and had a net positive rating of +10, and Corbyn's rating hit a record low of -42 before climbing to -14 just before the election.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/18407-theresa-may-now-almost-unpopular-pre-campaign-corb
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,671

    Now be honest, TSE, did you know that before you wrote the thread piece?

    Tell the truth and shame the devil.
    No.

    I published this thread at 5.30pm and that poll came out at 5.32pm.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    Leon said:

    What a weird election, another notable slip in the Labour VI, yet they remain miles ahead

    Reform need some major new breakthrough
    Yes, but I doubt they'll get it. A low ceiling of support plus insufficient concentrations of strength ought to stop them from troubling the seat modellers too much, fortunately.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Muesli said:

    Is it not a bit odd that YouGov sought favourability ratings for Carla Denyer and Richard Tice (who isn't even Reform UK leader now) and not Sir Ed Davey? And Vaughan Gething but nobody else from either Wales or Scotland? Do they have a fixed list of names from the main two parties and then draw a few wildcards out of a hat?

    Possibly statistical significance issues, tbf. But you'd expect SED to feature all the same.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,729
    Shortly there will be an election, in which the Lib Dems will become the opposition.
  • A clear trend now of Labour/Lib Dem votes moving around. We will see Labour go up again and then down again IMHO.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568

    Any more of this and I will publish a manifesto.

    Ninja swords are already banned as are a range of knives that almost never get used for hurting people. Most stabbings are undertaken with moderate sized kitchen knives. The ones where the blade is a bit bigger than the handle.
    Wow, the Labour government is so effective it is already succeeding before it even takes office!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,507

    The real news from the Labour Party manifesto launch is buried away on page 103.

    Labour is committed to reducing gambling-related harm. Recognising the evolution of the gambling landscape since 2005, Labour will reform gambling regulation, strengthening protections. We will continue to work with the industry on how to ensure responsible gambling.
    https://labour.org.uk/change/build-an-nhs-fit-for-the-future/

    Would be better to tax winnings, with the proceeds to reduce NI or corporation tax. It is ridiculous that income from working hard is taxed very heavily while games of chance aren't. In the US, where I am at the moment, gambling winnings are taxed as normal income.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,809
    maxh said:

    It'd take a very brave person to spread bet on Reform, wouldn't it?

    I mean, I think they're a sell but the potential reward is tiny compared to the risk that Con really implodes and they become a viable right wing stop Labour option.

    Is anyone on Reform on the spreads? I would like to raise a figurative hat to your chutzpah if so.

    I tried to psyche myself to do the sell - it's the dead eye pro trade - but I just couldn't.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,636
    kle4 said:

    Every day that passes extinction becomes more probable for the Tories. Another week of this and sub 100 will be the standard expectation.
    The idea of Harry Worth doing PMQs is growing on me.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,247

    The move from Lab to LD indicated by another poll.

    Crossover sooooo close again.
    Treble crossover with Tories in 4th...
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,818
    edited June 2024
    kinabalu said:

    You also have big thighs, I believe?
    FPT:
    I do, and I'm mildly disturbed that my musings on my mismatched body parts are memorable enough that you can recall them. Big thighs and massive calves. But short legs and a long body. Large head and a large neck, but short arms. Like, I don't know, a T-Rex or something.
    I mean, you wouldn't look at me and your eyes instantly water with the oddness of me, but finding clothes to fit is not straightforward. I have large body parts without being a large human, if that makes sense.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,356

    Labour leads by 24%.

    Lowest EVER Conservative % (worse than Truss).

    Highest Lib Dem % in 2024.

    🇬🇧 Westminster Voting Intention (12-13 June):

    Labour 42% (-3)
    Conservative 18% (-1)
    Reform 17% (–)
    Lib Dem 13% (+3)
    Green 5% (–)
    SNP 3% (–)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 7-10 June


    https://x.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1801291564997636520

    The only question remaining is how those shifts are distributed.

    A three percent Lab to LD swing everywhere is probably bad for Rishi.

    A fifteen percent swing in the right 100 or so constituencies is potentially terrifying.

    And by now, the profusion of orange diamonds means that the LibDem targeting strategy ought to be literally visible from space.
  • Lab 506
    LD 65
    Con 36
    SNP 14
    Reform 3
    Green 2

    Electoral Calculus, ouch
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,012
    Fishing said:

    Would be better to tax winnings, with the proceeds to reduce NI or corporation tax. It is ridiculous that income from working hard is taxed very heavily while games of chance aren't. In the US, where I am at the moment, gambling winnings are taxed as normal income.
    And how do they deal with losings?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    biggles said:

    Whilst I support it, releasing “lower quality green belt” is not exactly a vote winner. That’s the first local elections lost.
    I was surprised to see it in there, even caveated.

    It won't last - they will have a big enough majority to note worry, but they may want to break into areas in the south they have little locals representation, off the back of winning MPs there, so they will not want to upset them with Green Belt stuff.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,636
    edited June 2024

    No.

    I published this thread at 5.30pm and that poll came out at 5.32pm.
    OK, TSE, I'll buy it, but if you were not a lawyer I might just suspect you of fibbing.
  • Carnyx said:

    I'm not the one who has been objecting. Can't you get that into your head? But my place is now so bigt it needs a new bloody town centre or two. And you need planning for that.

    And you have the discourtesy to treat me like the shit you want to see overflowing from your new estates becvause you don't believe in planning.

    No wonder we get Nimbies when we have libertarians like you.
    So what if its got big?

    Its not big enough to resolve the housing shortage.

    That's what happens when the population changes, places get bigger.

    Not a single local authority has tripled in size, so you're exaggerating how big its grown anyway.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,504

    Do Reform actually have a manifesto/launch etc? Last big chance to try and cannibalise the Tory vote?

    I didn't think companies had manifestos, only mission statements?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,290

    The real news from the Labour Party manifesto launch is buried away on page 103.

    Labour is committed to reducing gambling-related harm. Recognising the evolution of the gambling landscape since 2005, Labour will reform gambling regulation, strengthening protections. We will continue to work with the industry on how to ensure responsible gambling.
    https://labour.org.uk/change/build-an-nhs-fit-for-the-future/

    Yes, I spotted that too. Authoritarian bastards. I've pretty much given up on Labour now, tbh: poundshop Conservatives with not even the excuse of greed. Nice of them to protect us from ourselves, the nanny-state shits.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,725
    .
    Cookie said:

    FPT:
    I do, and I'm mildly disturbed that my musings on my mismatched body parts are memorable enough that you can recall them. Big thighs and massive calves. But short legs and a long body. Large head and a large neck, but short arms. Like, I don't know, a T-Rex or something.
    I mean, you wouldn't look at me and your eyes instantly water with the oddness of me, but finding clothes to fit is not straightforward. I have large body parts but not a large body, if that makes sense.
    "..But I, that am not shaped for sportive tricks,
    Nor made to court an amorous looking-glass;
    I, that am rudely stamp'd, and want love's majesty
    To strut before a wanton ambling nymph;
    I, that am curtail'd of this fair proportion,
    Cheated of feature by dissembling nature,
    Deformed, unfinish'd, sent before my time
    Into this breathing world, scarce half made up,
    And that so lamely and unfashionable
    That dogs bark at me as I halt by them;
    Why, I, in this weak piping time of peace,
    Have no delight to pass away the time,
    Unless to spy my shadow in the sun
    And descant on mine own deformity:.."
  • Lab 506
    LD 65
    Con 36
    SNP 14
    Reform 3
    Green 2

    Electoral Calculus, ouch

    I'm not sure how the Tory psychology could cope with the LD's having almost double the seats, and being the official opposition.

    Perhaps a third of the remaining Tories might join them, and another lot might go to Reform, in that scenario.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,818
    kle4 said:

    Every day that passes extinction becomes more probable for the Tories. Another week of this and sub 100 will be the standard expectation.
    My prediction is, I think, 70-odd*, but I'm calling the bottom for the Tories here. Tory vote to firm up from here on in.

    *On which subject, mods (@TSE), can we give a bit more publicity to @Farooq's excellent prediction competition? Perhaps a thread on it? He put a lot of thought into it and I'm worried it might have got lost among the general chat, and I don't know if he's one to blow his own trumpet so might never get mentioned again. Be a shame if it petered out with only a handful of entrants.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,788

    Re; the Ultraterrestrial paper, it's quite interesting.

    The "as yet to be peer reviewed" is nevertheless a hint of amusement, a bit like Wikipedia's "Citation Needed." At the same time, we could be in for some surprises in the next few decades on this topic, though. I don't think most people have adjusted to , or are aware of the greater expert interest in the topic, at the moment.


    It is interesting

    Check this as well. A UFO seen in Tehran by multiple witnesses, and filmed

    Looks very convincing so it’s either a rather clever hoax, or - the other main explanation - drones. What do you reckon?

    If it is a hoax it is one of the best - with several different angles - and yet we live in an era when tech can create wildly convincing fake videos, of course

    https://x.com/greatwhyteshk/status/1798071608516727270?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 942
    Fishing said:

    Would be better to tax winnings, with the proceeds to reduce NI or corporation tax. It is ridiculous that income from working hard is taxed very heavily while games of chance aren't. In the US, where I am at the moment, gambling winnings are taxed as normal income.
    If you were to tax winnings as income then surely losses should be allowed to be offset?
  • Lab 506
    LD 65
    Con 36
    SNP 14
    Reform 3
    Green 2

    Electoral Calculus, ouch

    As Beyond Topline notes - this assumes ZERO tactical voting and still has Davey LOTO!

    I’m heavily in on Lib Dem’s and Reform on the ‘Most Seats without Labour’ market - initially as a trading bet but the longer this holds the longer I’m just going to stick.

    I still think it’s value even at lower prices because the Lib Dem tactical vote and their party’s ground game, as the header here suggests, is perhaps more efficient than any other party.




  • Fishing said:

    Would be better to tax winnings, with the proceeds to reduce NI or corporation tax. It is ridiculous that income from working hard is taxed very heavily while games of chance aren't. In the US, where I am at the moment, gambling winnings are taxed as normal income.
    And so make losses tax-deductible?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,636
    Cicero said:

    Just to back up the move in the polls with a bit of anecdotal evidence.

    In a Scottish seat previously held by the Lib Dems, but where they were squeezed to third in 2017/19. Now nominally marginal between SNP and Tory. Canvassing last night, previously majority Con area, now strongly Lib Dem, Tory vote collapsed.

    Having fought in the area in 2019 it is pretty obvious that there has been a giant swing. Something big is coming.

    Cicero, what were you doing in Scotland. Did you get on the wrong flight?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,725
    It's finally happening: Senate Democrats have opened investigation into Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner for the $2 billion they received from Saudi Arabia.
    https://x.com/maddenifico/status/1801075544114544883

    Only took them three years to get around to it.
  • Dopermean said:

    If you were to tax winnings as income then surely losses should be allowed to be offset?
    The taxman regularly doesn't allow offsets.

    If you hire me to do a job and pay me a salary I pay tax on that.

    If I then privately hire someone else to do a job for me and pay them for that, then they owe tax on what I paid them - but I can't offset that against my own taxes.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,920
    edited June 2024
    viewcode said:

    Yes, I spotted that too. Authoritarian bastards. I've pretty much given up on Labour now, tbh: poundshop Conservatives with not even the excuse of greed. Nice of them to protect us from ourselves, the nanny-state shits.
    There's going to be a lot of nanny-stateism and quangocracy coming.

    Whatever happened to Labour's plan to allow some mega-casinos to be built?

    The space for one here (created by demolishing an Odeon cinema) remains a car park to this day.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,809
    Cookie said:

    FPT:
    I do, and I'm mildly disturbed that my musings on my mismatched body parts are memorable enough that you can recall them. Big thighs and massive calves. But short legs and a long body. Large head and a large neck, but short arms. Like, I don't know, a T-Rex or something.
    I mean, you wouldn't look at me and your eyes instantly water with the oddness of me, but finding clothes to fit is not straightforward. I have large body parts without being a large human, if that makes sense.
    Well that sounds like a rather compelling package.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,671

    The taxman regularly doesn't allow offsets.

    If you hire me to do a job and pay me a salary I pay tax on that.

    If I then privately hire someone else to do a job for me and pay them for that, then they owe tax on what I paid them - but I can't offset that against my own taxes.
    Yes they do.
  • PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 587
    edited June 2024
    We have had a few years now of by-elections where the improved efficiency of tactical voting has been remarked upon and yet some people expect it to be less so for this election, surprisingly.

    The Lib Dem position as a soft Anti Labour vote AND an Anti Tory vote AND a ‘Protest, but not Farage’ vote is uniquely placed to do very well.

    I have a bit of sympathy for what Leon and others said earlier - about going more vocal with the single market / Pro-EU stance to try eat into Labour more -but I think doing so would cause a net loss of seats - it might play well in the Wimbledon type areas but it would get many Tories to go elsewhere.

    Let us not forget the much more realistic aim of the Lib Dems is to come 2nd this time round. If they do that then they could be in a position to be in Government in 2029. No point throwing that chance away by emboldening the Tory vote across the country at a time when it is at its weakest.

    The correct move instead is to soft signal it now, as they are doing, and pivot to Rejoin (or softer Rejoin) for 2029. If you’re the opposition you can hammer Labour on it in a few years’ time, and potentially even get some defections from more discontented Labour MPs, backed up by a younger population that will probably have more of an appetite for it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited June 2024
    maxh said:

    It'd take a very brave person to spread bet on Reform, wouldn't it?

    I mean, I think they're a sell but the potential reward is tiny compared to the risk that Con really implodes and they become a viable right wing stop Labour option.

    Is anyone on Reform on the spreads? I would like to raise a figurative hat to your chutzpah if so.

    Laying Reform on the spreads is a bonkers bet. There’s so much potential downside if Sunak and the Tories implode in the next three weeks, but also if Labour and SirKeir struggle to get their message across. It’s not difficult to imagine a whole load of “Red Wall” voting Reform.

    They’re most likely to get 0 or 1, but an open-ended bet against the upside at 4, no thanks.

    Same with the Greens by the way.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,938
    edited June 2024
    Leon said:


    It is interesting

    Check this as well. A UFO seen in Tehran by multiple witnesses, and filmed

    Looks very convincing so it’s either a rather clever hoax, or - the other main explanation - drones. What do you reckon?

    If it is a hoax it is one of the best - with several different angles - and yet we live in an era when tech can create wildly convincing fake videos, of course

    https://x.com/greatwhyteshk/status/1798071608516727270?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg
    That's certainly more visually convincing than many I've seen, but I no longer know whether to trust any video like this , as AI film technology advances, as you're mentioning.

    For that reason increasingly I think any breakthroughs here might come from verbal testimony first, not video or photography. Let's see what transpires in Congress.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,796
    Dopermean said:

    If you were to tax winnings as income then surely losses should be allowed to be offset?
    In the us you can offset losses
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    The real news from the Labour Party manifesto launch is buried away on page 103.

    Labour is committed to reducing gambling-related harm. Recognising the evolution of the gambling landscape since 2005, Labour will reform gambling regulation, strengthening protections. We will continue to work with the industry on how to ensure responsible gambling.
    https://labour.org.uk/change/build-an-nhs-fit-for-the-future/

    There's nothing in the public health section that requires significant deployment of new money (it's mostly about regulation and commitments to prioritise some issues over others, without any details.) One obvious way to tackle obesity would be to deal with the mass closure of swimming pools and other leisure facilities by cash strapped councils, but that would require more money and if there's any mention of that I've obviously missed it.

    The language does imply that Sunak's smoking phase out is coming back somewhere in the legislative pipeline, but the consequences of having, years in the future, 31 year olds able to buy cigarettes but 30 year olds not still haven't been thought through. Perhaps this will end with the fines for such illegal tobacco sales being made so stiff that retailers decide it is not worth the risk of selling them to anyone? I don't know - it seems to me a more effective way of stamping out the habit would be to outlaw it totally, but I suppose that Labour doesn't want to create another class C drug for policing to have to cope with...
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,400

    Cicero, what were you doing in Scotland. Did you get on the wrong flight?

    My family are scattered to the four winds, but Scotland was home until I left the UK altogether.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,754
    edited June 2024
    kle4 said:

    Labour Manifesto Conclusion
    Dense text, could have used some bullet pointing of key pledges more often. Hard to get into what is proposed sometimes. Lots of ‘will reform’ with no more detail, and lots of unnecessary fluff.

    I don’t fully believe some of the stuff around housing in it, but it is more realistic and positive about it than any manifesto so far, which is good. Very little on climate, which surprised me. Punchy on foreign policy and policing.

    Most of it was far too long, with a lot of caveated phrasing.

    Call it a C-. Functional, but I didn’t feel like I learned much from it.

    On a minor point, honestly the SDP’s rather loony manifesto was the best in relation to clear headings. Everyone else has weird, tortured chapter headings instead of just ‘Energy’ ‘Local Government’ ‘Industry’ etc.

    Can I add the observation that it’s really annoying for the Labour landing page to assume I want to read the HTML version and not present a choice (at least on my phone) unless I click “manifesto accessibility”, which is not where I would usually go for a pdf option.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,209
    kle4 said:

    Wow, the Labour government is so effective it is already succeeding before it even takes office!
    They were banned about 57 Martial Arts Weapons Panics ago. Last millennium, IIRC.

    The sensible bit was they reused the rules from the American occupation of Japan to exempt real, historic swords while condemning to the scrap heap the cheap shit.
  • Yes they do.
    What do you mean?

    If I'm paid a salary via PAYE by my employer, then I hire an electrician or plumber or anyone else to do a job for me . . . then I can't offset my PAYE by the electricians taxes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    boulay said:

    Well, Rishi might not be remembered as the best PM, not remotely the longest serving PM, not the longest serving modern day Tory PM but he might go into the history books as the very last Conservative PM. Beat that Liz and Boris.

    Probably needs a split with some joining Reform so the Tory nickname can live on.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,650
    edited June 2024

    They were banned about 57 Martial Arts Weapons Panics ago. Last millennium, IIRC.

    The sensible bit was they reused the rules from the American occupation of Japan to exempt real, historic swords while condemning to the scrap heap the cheap shit.
    I'm asking whether taking back our streets is going to include dealing with Anti-Social Parking.

    What's a "hobs bonus"?

    Is this a British response to Mr Chump's fit about banning of gas cookers?

    The Mineworkers Pension scheme one is about assets of the Mineworkers Pension Scheme not all being used on miners' pensions in some manner. It's a very long term campaign.

    Here's a local report:
    https://www.chad.co.uk/news/politics/nottinghamshire-former-mineworker-welcomes-the-labour-partys-commitment-to-end-injustice-of-mineworkers-pension-scheme-4664692
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,840
    Cicero said:

    Just to back up the move in the polls with a bit of anecdotal evidence.

    In a Scottish seat previously held by the Lib Dems, but where they were squeezed to third in 2017/19. Now nominally marginal between SNP and Tory. Canvassing last night, previously majority Con area, now strongly Lib Dem, Tory vote collapsed.

    Having fought in the area in 2019 it is pretty obvious that there has been a giant swing. Something big is coming.

    The relative weakness of Reform in Scotland must help the Lib Dems a lot because they are the only real option for unionist ex-Tories who don't like Labour.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,955

    What do you mean?

    If I'm paid a salary via PAYE by my employer, then I hire an electrician or plumber or anyone else to do a job for me . . . then I can't offset my PAYE by the electricians taxes.
    I know people who have set up ltd companies to manage their own weddings to ensure things are tax deductible...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,671

    What do you mean?

    If I'm paid a salary via PAYE by my employer, then I hire an electrician or plumber or anyone else to do a job for me . . . then I can't offset my PAYE by the electricians taxes.
    Companies can offset their profits against losses incurred in the previous years.

    On a personal level I can offset any cap gains losses against future gains.

    There are other examples.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,788
    edited June 2024
    viewcode said:

    Yes. In an age of drones, picture-perfect CGI, deepfake tech, LLMs and multiple sock accounts, "aliens" is obviously the only logical explanation.

    (facepalm)
    And of course I never actually mentioned aliens

    I offered two explanations: hoax, or drones (with an implied third explanation: modern CGI)

    It is you that leaps in and Brexit-comments: “aliens!!! You said aliens!!!!”
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,502
    boulay said:

    Well, Rishi might not be remembered as the best PM, not remotely the longest serving PM, not the longest serving modern day Tory PM but he might go into the history books as the very last Conservative PM. Beat that Liz and Boris.

    I think he’d be proud of that achievement.
  • kyf_100 said:

    I know people who have set up ltd companies to manage their own weddings to ensure things are tax deductible...
    Indeed, that's precisely my point.

    HMRC gives different rules to Ltd companies and individuals.

    Firms are often allowed to offset things that individuals are not. So the concept of HMRC refusing to allow an offset to individuals is not a unique one.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,209
    MattW said:

    I'm asking whether taking back our streets is going to include dealing with Anti-Social Parking.
    That's in my manifesto.

    Getting the Boyes rifle back into production is a key deliverable for that.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,356
    edited June 2024
    Here's another one:

    New poll

    @BMGResearch for @theipaper

    Labour 41%
    Conservatives 21%
    Reform 14%
    Lib Dems 12%
    Greens 6%

    Little movement in last week - Tories need something to turn up...


    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1801296925775233292

    Lab -1, Con -2, Ref -2, LD+3
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568

    The relative weakness of Reform in Scotland must help the Lib Dems a lot because they are the only real option for unionist ex-Tories who don't like Labour.
    I am looking forward to Scotland a lot, to see if the Tories can remarkably hold on despite terrible results due to being the current main Unionist option in several seats, or of Cicero is right and we get another massive switcharound.

    There's been so much churn in the last 10 years in Scotland, the voters may have broken out of the habits of sticking with one party and are truly judging things on an election by election basis.

    Good for them.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,189
    edited June 2024
    Fishing said:

    Would be better to tax winnings, with the proceeds to reduce NI or corporation tax. It is ridiculous that income from working hard is taxed very heavily while games of chance aren't. In the US, where I am at the moment, gambling winnings are taxed as normal income.
    We used to tax bets, and you could pay on staking or have it deducted from your winnings. We switched to the current model around 20 years ago iirc and there is no clamour to change back. It is not untaxed but the tax is hidden as a 15 per cent levy on turnover. We have never applied income tax because IR/HMRC fears tax refunds to losers.

    General Betting Duty, Pool Betting Duty and Remote Gaming Duty
    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/general-betting-duty-pool-betting-duty-and-remote-gaming-duty
  • Companies can offset their profits against losses incurred in the previous years.

    On a personal level I can offset any cap gains losses against future gains.

    There are other examples.
    But you've just proven my point.

    On a commercial basis firms can offset some stuff that individuals can't.

    And on an individual basis you are allowed some offsets but not others.

    Which matches what I said about the taxman regularly doesn't allow offsets. Which != the taxman never allows offsets.

    There are times offsets are permitted, and there are other times they're not. Its not like they're absolutely always permitted, or absolutely never are.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,400

    Here's another one:

    New poll

    @BMGResearch for @theipaper

    Labour 41%
    Conservatives 21%
    Reform 14%
    Lib Dems 12%
    Greens 6%

    Little movement in last week - Tories need something to turn up...


    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1801296925775233292

    Lab -1, Con -2, Ref -2, LD+3

    More Lib Dem momentum. Looks like its a thing now.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,189
    Reform UK's Lee Anderson caught parking his car in disabled space
    The ex-Tory, now standing for Nigel Farage's party, was snapped getting into his silver BMW X5, which had been parked in a disabled space in a car park in Sutton-in-Ashfield

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/reform-uks-lee-anderson-caught-33025627
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,938
    edited June 2024

    Here's another one:

    New poll

    @BMGResearch for @theipaper

    Labour 41%
    Conservatives 21%
    Reform 14%
    Lib Dems 12%
    Greens 6%

    Little movement in last week - Tories need something to turn up...


    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1801296925775233292

    Lab -1, Con -2, Ref -2, LD+3

    The polls are beginning to herd.

    And so the election is beginning to look a bit more snoozey again.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568

    Reform UK's Lee Anderson caught parking his car in disabled space
    The ex-Tory, now standing for Nigel Farage's party, was snapped getting into his silver BMW X5, which had been parked in a disabled space in a car park in Sutton-in-Ashfield

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/reform-uks-lee-anderson-caught-33025627

    Disabled parking spaces are woke, no doubt.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    biggles said:

    Can I add the observation that it’s really annoying for the Labour landing page to assume I want to read the HTML version and not present a choice (at least on my phone) unless I click “manifesto accessibility”, which is not where I would usually go for a pdf option.
    It's doubly strange as my understanding is pdfs are deemed not very accessible thesedays, though I don't know the reason.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,754

    That's in my manifesto.

    Getting the Boyes rifle back into production is a key deliverable for that.
    Have I explained my winning manifesto promise on here before? Every one who is a decent sort (enjoys Test Cricket, knows their beer, can make a decent fry up - those sorts of criteria) gets a Glock 19 with a standard 15 round magazine through the post.

    Those 15 are freebies and you can use them as you wish, but if you can justify the use of a round you get posted a replacement.

    Justifications might include “he was standing on the wrong side of the escalator” or “he had his top button done up with no tie”. All the serious offences.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568

    The polls are beginning to herd.

    And so the election is beginning to look a bit more snoozey again.
    When wasn't it?

    There's interest in how big the majority, and how bad the Tories, so it is exciting in that sense, but the outcome is as clear cut as you can get.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,788

    That's certainly more visually convincing than many I've seen, but I no longer know whether to trust any video like this , as AI film technology advances, as you're mentioning.

    For that reason increasingly I think any breakthroughs here might come from verbal testimony first, not video or photography. Let's see what transpires in Congress.
    There’s a very astute comment under that tweet from a Spanish guy. Who points out that such is the state of video fakery (superb) even if we now get the most compelling footage in history people will dismiss it as fake, indeed they are MORE likely to dismiss it as fake the better it is

    So we are now past the moment when any piece of video or photo evidence, no matter how good, will do “the job”

    And also many people are inclined to dismiss anything anyway, as we see

    That’s got me thinking - what next? This evolution leaves us with eye witness testimony, but that is all too easily dismissed as “he’s a loony” - or we may get very senior people saying “yes we have evidence” but that can likewise be dismissed as psy-ops, contagion, mass hallucination

    The conclusion is that we will now never have evidence for UFOs that convinces anyone, and indeed we will never have clinching evidence of anything - anything at all - ever again - and everyone can live in denial of anything they choose. It’s going to be mad. We will all live in our own tiny bubble of personal reality, no objective reality will exist, not any more

    The wet market hypothesis was arguably an early test run of this: post truth reality
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,266

    Lab 506
    LD 65
    Con 36
    SNP 14
    Reform 3
    Green 2

    Electoral Calculus, ouch

    Very unrealistic, the Greens only ever win the 1 seat.
  • PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 587
    edited June 2024
    Cicero said:

    Just to back up the move in the polls with a bit of anecdotal evidence.

    In a Scottish seat previously held by the Lib Dems, but where they were squeezed to third in 2017/19. Now nominally marginal between SNP and Tory. Canvassing last night, previously majority Con area, now strongly Lib Dem, Tory vote collapsed.

    Having fought in the area in 2019 it is pretty obvious that there has been a giant swing. Something big is coming.

    I’ve been wondering about just betting Lib Dem in basically every Scotland seat individually and seeing if it profits…
This discussion has been closed.