Never go full Corbyn 2019 – politicalbetting.com

megasaur said:

Carnyx said:

EPG said:

Carnyx said:

EPG said:

Casino_Royale said:

EPG said:

megasaur said:

eristdoof said:

megasaur said:

EPG said:

If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.

It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do

Private schools are businesses.

They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.

Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.

So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?

They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.

Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.

PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.

As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.

Actually, the charity in question does seal with that sort of thing, albeit with a little mroe organization. It gives me is a printout of sticky labels with "my" number on it - every time I drop off a bagof stuff I put one of the labels on it, and the volunteers prepare the price labels accordingly.

But for me it's as much about recycling unwanted goods as far as possible.

"Dead white man’s clothes
It’s the dirty secret behind the world’s fashion addiction. Many of the clothes we donate to charity end up dumped in landfill, creating an environmental catastrophe on the other side of the world."

Troubling stuff

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-12/fast-fashion-turning-parts-ghana-into-toxic-landfill/100358702

Foxy said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

To me instinctively, it feels like Labour have the most impressive social media campaign they've ever had.

That probably doesn't mean an awful lot - but the Tories were very good in 2019 so I find it odd they seem to have left the field. Cummings to his credit, understood this. Something they did very intelligently, was to run lots of ads for most of the campaign, check their response and then run the best ones in the last week.

I think the other parties had prepped for a May election as a precaution so had stuff ready to go.

I think this is further evidence that the Tory campaign is not ready, ant Sunak caught his own party on the hop.

FrancisUrquhart said:

kyf_100 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Fuck me, the policy gets worse, I mean the NHS is buggered.

Exclusive: Rishi Sunak is considering requiring future applicants for public sector jobs to have completed National Service

It’s one of the enforcement options that would go to the Royal Commission for consideration if he gets to enact the policy

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1794837181657493854?s=46

I joked down thread about Sunak proposing reintroducing corporal punishment....I am not sure it is pie in the sky.

About 10 minutes ago I joked about them making national service a requirement to vote... I'm not laughing now. This latest development makes me think they would, if they could.

The Conservative Party is beyond parody at this point.

I just can't work out what focus groups they have done that have said #1 priority not inflation, not cost of living, not interest rates, not crime, not immigration, not getting GP appointment, not NHS waiting lists....no its making kids do voluntary work....two days and counting worth of media.

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

...

kle4 said:

wooliedyed said:

33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Refirm vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.

I agree the theory is sound in focusing on core vote red meat to salvage as best they can.

But is this really what the Tory core vote was looking for? I know a lot of Tories, and to be fair I haven't had a chance to check in with most of them since the announcement in an organic way, but I struggle to think this is the sort of thing that would get their pulses racing.

Increased funding for the military, a deeper crackdown on benefit scroungers, more word on Rwanda, that's what I'd have expected.

FrancisUrquhart said:

kyf_100 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Fuck me, the policy gets worse, I mean the NHS is buggered.

Exclusive: Rishi Sunak is considering requiring future applicants for public sector jobs to have completed National Service

It’s one of the enforcement options that would go to the Royal Commission for consideration if he gets to enact the policy

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1794837181657493854?s=46

I joked down thread about Sunak proposing reintroducing corporal punishment....I am not sure it is pie in the sky.

About 10 minutes ago I joked about them making national service a requirement to vote... I'm not laughing now. This latest development makes me think they would, if they could.

The Conservative Party is beyond parody at this point.

I just can't work out what focus groups they have done that have said #1 priority not inflation, not cost of living, not interest rates, not crime, not immigration, not getting GP appointment, not NHS waiting lists....no its making kids do voluntary work....two days and counting worth of media.

wooliedyed said:

kle4 said:

wooliedyed said:

33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Refirm vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.

I agree the theory is sound in focusing on core vote red meat to salvage as best they can.

But is this really what the Tory core vote was looking for? I know a lot of Tories, and to be fair I haven't had a chance to check in with most of them since the announcement in an organic way, but I struggle to think this is the sort of thing that would get their pulses racing.

Increased funding for the military, a deeper crackdown on benefit scroungers, more word on Rwanda, that's what I'd have expected.

It's not an anathema to them i'd think. I assume this is targeted at Faragists, with the assumption it doesn't drive away core voters

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Tories now saying that teenagers who agree to do a year of military service could get 'fast tracked interviews for grad schemes in private and public sectors' afterwards.

Sunak: "We want to make sure Britain's future generations can get the most out of national service."

https://x.com/HugoGye/status/1794836849124405431

They are literally making it up as they go along, aren't they?

Scott_xP said:

The Telegraph has the splash that National Service would also include Royals

I wonder when Richi will notice that every Royal serves already...

DM_Andy said:

Does being an MP count as public sector?

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

There is a Labour mole.

And he's the Prime Minister.

Carnyx said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

EPG said:

Carnyx said:

EPG said:

Casino_Royale said:

EPG said:

megasaur said:

eristdoof said:

megasaur said:

EPG said:

If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.

It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do

Private schools are businesses.

They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.

Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.

So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?

They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.

Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.

PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.

As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.

I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.

https://www.charitytaxgroup.org.uk/tax/donations/gift-aid/gift-aid-on-donated-goods/

Ah - I've got where we are at cross purposes. THis is what happens: "However, a charity can offer to act as an agent for supporters and sell goods on their behalf. If the supporter agrees to donate the sale proceeds, and signs a Gift Aid declaration, that donation can then qualify for Gift Aid, under the Retail Gift Aid scheme."

Another charity wanted to apply that to clearing a relative's house, but they left it too late - by the time it was happening, it was the executors rather than a beneficiary who were handing over the stuff so no GA to confer. Point is it does happen.

FrancisUrquhart said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Tories now saying that teenagers who agree to do a year of military service could get 'fast tracked interviews for grad schemes in private and public sectors' afterwards.

Sunak: "We want to make sure Britain's future generations can get the most out of national service."

https://x.com/HugoGye/status/1794836849124405431

They are literally making it up as they go along, aren't they?

Its also totally unconservative.

rottenborough said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Tories now saying that teenagers who agree to do a year of military service could get 'fast tracked interviews for grad schemes in private and public sectors' afterwards.

Sunak: "We want to make sure Britain's future generations can get the most out of national service."

https://x.com/HugoGye/status/1794836849124405431

They are literally making it up as they go along, aren't they?

Its also totally unconservative.

I think that ship sailed a long time ago frankly.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Carnyx said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

EPG said:

Carnyx said:

EPG said:

Casino_Royale said:

EPG said:

megasaur said:

eristdoof said:

megasaur said:

EPG said:

If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.

It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do

Private schools are businesses.

They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.

Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.

So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?

They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.

Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.

PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.

As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.

I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.

https://www.charitytaxgroup.org.uk/tax/donations/gift-aid/gift-aid-on-donated-goods/

Ah - I've got where we are at cross purposes. THis is what happens: "However, a charity can offer to act as an agent for supporters and sell goods on their behalf. If the supporter agrees to donate the sale proceeds, and signs a Gift Aid declaration, that donation can then qualify for Gift Aid, under the Retail Gift Aid scheme."

Another charity wanted to apply that to clearing a relative's house, but they left it too late - by the time it was happening, it was the executors rather than a beneficiary who were handing over the stuff so no GA to confer. Point is it does happen.

Yep. I was thinking more of the people just wandering in and donating books to Oxfam etc. Unless they are set up as a regular donation with the money signed over to the charity at the end of each fiancial year then gift aid cannot apply.

I assume that in theory gift aid could apply to Prvate School fees if they are charities. Is this something that is already done? If not it seems an obvious way to offset the VAT imposition.

Jonathan said:

Sunak to Truss, “hold my pint”

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Leaked documents suggest teens would be jailed for refusing National Service, despite senior Tories claiming otherwise

https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1794842931406266625

DM_Andy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Carnyx said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

EPG said:

Carnyx said:

EPG said:

Casino_Royale said:

EPG said:

megasaur said:

eristdoof said:

megasaur said:

EPG said:

If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.

It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do

Private schools are businesses.

They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.

Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.

So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?

They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.

Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.

PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.

As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.

I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.

https://www.charitytaxgroup.org.uk/tax/donations/gift-aid/gift-aid-on-donated-goods/

Ah - I've got where we are at cross purposes. THis is what happens: "However, a charity can offer to act as an agent for supporters and sell goods on their behalf. If the supporter agrees to donate the sale proceeds, and signs a Gift Aid declaration, that donation can then qualify for Gift Aid, under the Retail Gift Aid scheme."

Another charity wanted to apply that to clearing a relative's house, but they left it too late - by the time it was happening, it was the executors rather than a beneficiary who were handing over the stuff so no GA to confer. Point is it does happen.

Yep. I was thinking more of the people just wandering in and donating books to Oxfam etc. Unless they are set up as a regular donation with the money signed over to the charity at the end of each fiancial year then gift aid cannot apply.

I assume that in theory gift aid could apply to Prvate School fees if they are charities. Is this something that is already done? If not it seems an obvious way to offset the VAT imposition.

Isn't Gift Aid only on donations? If you go to a National Trust property and buy a keepsake from the shop the National Trust can't claim 25% on top of the sale price.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jonathan said:

Sunak to Truss, “hold my pint”

At this rate, he will be banning pints too.

kle4 said:

kyf_100 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Fuck me, the policy gets worse, I mean the NHS is buggered.

Exclusive: Rishi Sunak is considering requiring future applicants for public sector jobs to have completed National Service

It’s one of the enforcement options that would go to the Royal Commission for consideration if he gets to enact the policy

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1794837181657493854?s=46

I joked down thread about Sunak proposing reintroducing corporal punishment....I am not sure it is pie in the sky.

About 10 minutes ago I joked about them making national service a requirement to vote... I'm not laughing now. This latest development makes me think they would, if they could.

It's a question they will now legitimately be asked. They'll say that's ridiculous.

But why would it be? If they are restricting jobs based on whether you've done national service why not other things?

RochdalePioneers said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Leaked documents suggest teens would be jailed for refusing National Service, despite senior Tories claiming otherwise

https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1794842931406266625

Jailed? Where? The Tories can't even jail murderers and rapists and PPE fraudsters as the jails are full.

rottenborough said:

wooliedyed said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

wooliedyed said:

33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Reform vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.

Surely then you go low tax, raise IHT threshold, tough on crime, much stronger rules on work visas....that's red meat to the core strategy.

Manifesto for the core, fill the void until it with Faragist friendly fun

They are a bit stuck with IHT. Already under heavy Labour fire for the totally unfunded destruction of the pension fund known as NI. If they now say IHT will be slashed then another massive hole.

I think they will do it anyway.

Scott_xP said:

The Telegraph has the splash that National Service would also include Royals

I wonder when Richi will notice that every Royal serves already...

Pro_Rata said:

Foxy said:

SandyRentool said:

AlsoLei said:

Pro_Rata said:

Casino_Royale said:

bondegezou said:

Casino_Royale said:

MJW said:

Casino_Royale said:

JosiasJessop said:

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_xP said:

Stuartinromford said:

For the Conservatives to lose to him... that means the public must really hate the Tories.

And they do. And a lot of it is utterly self-inflicted.

To return to Casino's school problem for a moment (sorry), if we accept the premise that the school is closing "because Labour are going to win", then the blame for that falls squarely on

BoZo
Truss
Richi

Casino should be focusing his righteous anger on those cretins for screwing the pooch so completely

I think this is one you're struggling with as the reality of a Labour government comes into focus somewhere deep in the annals of your mind, so instead you're trying to fingerpoint to what you're comfortable fingerpointing toward instead.

The school operated on just a 2% gross margin last year. A 20% demand shock (everyone knows Labour is going to win) has led to a significant drop in the pupil roll for next year and that's been enough to put it into administration.

That wouldn't have happened were it not for Labour's VAT on private schools policy. It's killed it off.

If it helps, I think the scenario you present is all too plausible. I'm sorry that it's happened, and for the parents, pupils and teachers affected.

The pushback you're getting on this is interesting.

The pushback I'm getting is because absolutely no-one wants to hear anything negative about Keir Starmer and our prospective new Labour government.

Isn't the pushback more about not seeing the bigger picture? I'm sure it's sad that this school has financial problems. But we're talking about a change to tax policy that affects a group of the most privileged people in the country, one that many other private schools and parents will negotiate, and which will allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% of kids who don't have the privilege of private schooling.

It's always possible to pick sad stories of those on the wrong end of a policy. And it's not like Tories have given a jot about the misery they've inflicted on far less privileged people over the past 14 years. But I guess the kids Tory policies pushed into poverty deserved it, unlike Tarquin and Jocasta - who might now have to mix with the hoi polloi. For shame.

Except, (a) it doesn't affect the most privileged in the country - that's just the rhetoric - because they won't be affected; it's hard-working professionals and the small independent schools that will be, (b), it will not allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% and will actually cost the taxpayer, and, (c) your last point seems to be an eye for an eye, which isn't invalidates what little merit your first two points have.

None.

People who can afford today’s private school fees are certainly at the top end of “hard-working professionals”. 7% of kids go to private schools and that’s very closely correlated with income, i.e. the top 7% earners.

1 in 5 adults in the UK has attended a private school as a child (20%) and it's actually higher amongst younger age groups:




It's much more common than you think.

I went to the source and not much background data on, for instance, the questions used to get these figures. But I'm going to call bullshit on the output number.

It implies that most of those 18-24 year olds who attended private school at some point, did so for only one or two years each. Is that really likely? What would be driving that sort of behaviour?

Example: My niece was sent to a wanky private school for a year before she started infant school. Presumably that would be included in the stats.

Mrs Foxy went to private school for a year when she came from Africa, but hated it as all of the other kids were much posher and had ponies and such. She transferred to the local Comp and was much happier there.

The discussion suggests the UK independent sector but I wonder:

- Given that, iirc, 15% of the UK population is foreign born and that is a percentage that will vary with age, might some element of private schooling involved institutions abroad where the balance of state and private provision might be different.
- Given the source is a tutor organisation, might it include the sort of private hour a week top up tuition that is prevalent especially in grammar areas? (in which case my kids, at mainstream state schools throughout, would class as privately
educated for around an hour a week for a year or two)

I think if 5.9% are in private education as their full time provision at any given time, and that that number has risen, it suggests to me that the commonly quoted 7% for the numbers that go to UK private schools full time weren't too far wide of the mark, but may be slightly out of date.

Carnyx said:

DM_Andy said:

Does being an MP count as public sector?

No. Self-employed.

Hence the way they behave in the workplace ... in all seriousness.

rottenborough said:

RochdalePioneers said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Leaked documents suggest teens would be jailed for refusing National Service, despite senior Tories claiming otherwise

https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1794842931406266625

Jailed? Where? The Tories can't even jail murderers and rapists and PPE fraudsters as the jails are full.

Tomorrow's announcement is young people will build their own prisons.

Foxy said:

Pro_Rata said:

Foxy said:

SandyRentool said:

AlsoLei said:

Pro_Rata said:

Casino_Royale said:

bondegezou said:

Casino_Royale said:

MJW said:

Casino_Royale said:

JosiasJessop said:

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_xP said:

Stuartinromford said:

For the Conservatives to lose to him... that means the public must really hate the Tories.

And they do. And a lot of it is utterly self-inflicted.

To return to Casino's school problem for a moment (sorry), if we accept the premise that the school is closing "because Labour are going to win", then the blame for that falls squarely on

BoZo
Truss
Richi

Casino should be focusing his righteous anger on those cretins for screwing the pooch so completely

I think this is one you're struggling with as the reality of a Labour government comes into focus somewhere deep in the annals of your mind, so instead you're trying to fingerpoint to what you're comfortable fingerpointing toward instead.

The school operated on just a 2% gross margin last year. A 20% demand shock (everyone knows Labour is going to win) has led to a significant drop in the pupil roll for next year and that's been enough to put it into administration.

That wouldn't have happened were it not for Labour's VAT on private schools policy. It's killed it off.

If it helps, I think the scenario you present is all too plausible. I'm sorry that it's happened, and for the parents, pupils and teachers affected.

The pushback you're getting on this is interesting.

The pushback I'm getting is because absolutely no-one wants to hear anything negative about Keir Starmer and our prospective new Labour government.

Isn't the pushback more about not seeing the bigger picture? I'm sure it's sad that this school has financial problems. But we're talking about a change to tax policy that affects a group of the most privileged people in the country, one that many other private schools and parents will negotiate, and which will allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% of kids who don't have the privilege of private schooling.

It's always possible to pick sad stories of those on the wrong end of a policy. And it's not like Tories have given a jot about the misery they've inflicted on far less privileged people over the past 14 years. But I guess the kids Tory policies pushed into poverty deserved it, unlike Tarquin and Jocasta - who might now have to mix with the hoi polloi. For shame.

Except, (a) it doesn't affect the most privileged in the country - that's just the rhetoric - because they won't be affected; it's hard-working professionals and the small independent schools that will be, (b), it will not allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% and will actually cost the taxpayer, and, (c) your last point seems to be an eye for an eye, which isn't invalidates what little merit your first two points have.

None.

People who can afford today’s private school fees are certainly at the top end of “hard-working professionals”. 7% of kids go to private schools and that’s very closely correlated with income, i.e. the top 7% earners.

1 in 5 adults in the UK has attended a private school as a child (20%) and it's actually higher amongst younger age groups:




It's much more common than you think.

I went to the source and not much background data on, for instance, the questions used to get these figures. But I'm going to call bullshit on the output number.

It implies that most of those 18-24 year olds who attended private school at some point, did so for only one or two years each. Is that really likely? What would be driving that sort of behaviour?

Example: My niece was sent to a wanky private school for a year before she started infant school. Presumably that would be included in the stats.

Mrs Foxy went to private school for a year when she came from Africa, but hated it as all of the other kids were much posher and had ponies and such. She transferred to the local Comp and was much happier there.

The discussion suggests the UK independent sector but I wonder:

- Given that, iirc, 15% of the UK population is foreign born and that is a percentage that will vary with age, might some element of private schooling involved institutions abroad where the balance of state and private provision might be different.
- Given the source is a tutor organisation, might it include the sort of private hour a week top up tuition that is prevalent especially in grammar areas? (in which case my kids, at mainstream state schools throughout, would class as privately
educated for around an hour a week for a year or two)

I think if 5.9% are in private education as their full time provision at any given time, and that that number has risen, it suggests to me that the commonly quoted 7% for the numbers that go to UK private schools full time weren't too far wide of the mark, but may be slightly out of date.

Good point. Most of my Subcontinental and African colleagues were educated privately in their original countries. I am not sure how they would fit these stats.

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

RochdalePioneers said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Leaked documents suggest teens would be jailed for refusing National Service, despite senior Tories claiming otherwise

https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1794842931406266625

Jailed? Where? The Tories can't even jail murderers and rapists and PPE fraudsters as the jails are full.

Tomorrow's announcement is young people will build their own prisons.

Why bother? It seems that under Sunak the country will be one big prison.

Richard_Tyndall said:

EPG said:

Carnyx said:

EPG said:

Casino_Royale said:

EPG said:

megasaur said:

eristdoof said:

megasaur said:

EPG said:

If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.

It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do

Private schools are businesses.

They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.

Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.

So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?

They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.

Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.

PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.

As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.

I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.

https://www.charitytaxgroup.org.uk/tax/donations/gift-aid/gift-aid-on-donated-goods/

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

RochdalePioneers said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Leaked documents suggest teens would be jailed for refusing National Service, despite senior Tories claiming otherwise

https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1794842931406266625

Jailed? Where? The Tories can't even jail murderers and rapists and PPE fraudsters as the jails are full.

Tomorrow's announcement is young people will build their own prisons.

Why bother? It seems that under Sunak the country will be one big prison.

williamglenn said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/26/rishi-sunaks-national-service-pledge-is-bonkers-says-ex-military-chief

Rishi Sunak’s national service pledge is ‘bonkers’, says ex-military chief

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

RochdalePioneers said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Leaked documents suggest teens would be jailed for refusing National Service, despite senior Tories claiming otherwise

https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1794842931406266625

Jailed? Where? The Tories can't even jail murderers and rapists and PPE fraudsters as the jails are full.

Tomorrow's announcement is young people will build their own prisons.

Why bother? It seems that under Sunak the country will be one big prison.

No_Offence_Alan said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

EPG said:

Carnyx said:

EPG said:

Casino_Royale said:

EPG said:

megasaur said:

eristdoof said:

megasaur said:

EPG said:

If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.

It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do

Private schools are businesses.

They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.

Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.

So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?

They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.

Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.

PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.

As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.

I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.

https://www.charitytaxgroup.org.uk/tax/donations/gift-aid/gift-aid-on-donated-goods/

Is that right? I donate my old books and old clothes to Barnardo's. Every year I get a letter saying how much my donations have raised and how much Gift Aid the Government has chipped in.

Andy_JS said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

RochdalePioneers said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Leaked documents suggest teens would be jailed for refusing National Service, despite senior Tories claiming otherwise

https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1794842931406266625

Jailed? Where? The Tories can't even jail murderers and rapists and PPE fraudsters as the jails are full.

Tomorrow's announcement is young people will build their own prisons.

Why bother? It seems that under Sunak the country will be one big prison.

Bit like the Covid lockdowns.

turbotubbs said:

williamglenn said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/26/rishi-sunaks-national-service-pledge-is-bonkers-says-ex-military-chief

Rishi Sunak’s national service pledge is ‘bonkers’, says ex-military chief

The same ex military chief who is a Labour peer?

biggles said:

Carnyx said:

biggles said:

Carnyx said:

DM_Andy said:

Does being an MP count as public sector?

No. Self-employed.

Hence the way they behave in the workplace ... in all seriousness.

Engage pedant mode. Pedant mode engaged.

They are “office holders”, not employees or self employed. It is its own thing with its own rules.

Your substantive point still stands.

Thank you - quite right. Definitely needed correction. Or amendment.

It is an interesting point. Could we make them employees of the House of Commons to give them a taste of the actual standards the rest of us are held to? Don’t see why not? They need freedom to vote with their conscience but that’s all.

Would make things like the Boris discipline case easy, because you could just make lying to the House gross misconduct and the burden of proof would be that of an employment tribunal.

Andy_JS said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

...

What animal is this graph similar to? Doesn't look like a cat this time. 😊

wooliedyed said:

Andy_JS said:

wooliedyed said:

33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Reform vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.

Cameron won in 2015 and 2010 with 36-37%, and Blair with 36% in 2001. 33% isn't a million miles away from those figures.

I am guessing they are assuming 40% plus Lab though. I mean 33 is just my representative figure. It's a'fet voting % to a save 200 seats level' (or whatever benchmark they've set )

No_Offence_Alan said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

EPG said:

Carnyx said:

EPG said:

Casino_Royale said:

EPG said:

megasaur said:

eristdoof said:

megasaur said:

EPG said:

If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.

It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do

Private schools are businesses.

They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.

Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.

So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?

They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.

Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.

PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.

As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.

I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.

https://www.charitytaxgroup.org.uk/tax/donations/gift-aid/gift-aid-on-donated-goods/

Is that right? I donate my old books and old clothes to Barnardo's. Every year I get a letter saying how much my donations have raised and how much Gift Aid the Government has chipped in.

Andy_JS said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

I was reasonably confident when the GE was called that the Tories would eventually poll 30% with a enough scare the horses attacks on Starmer and standard Tory type offering.

Seems highly unlikely now.

I'm not sure. The policy may attract as many voters are it repels, which would leave us where we were before, which was 30% is possible.

Stuartinromford said:

RochdalePioneers said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Leaked documents suggest teens would be jailed for refusing National Service, despite senior Tories claiming otherwise

https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1794842931406266625

Jailed? Where? The Tories can't even jail murderers and rapists and PPE fraudsters as the jails are full.

That's fine. Use National Service Prison Guards to staff special prisons for National Service refuseniks... That doesn't work, does it.

Scott_xP said:

@gsoh31

The whole reason the Tories were so desperate to join the EEC and the Single Market is that they would stop absurd autarkic Bennery... Like making graduate schemes prioritise volunteers from state boondoggles. How lost they have become.

Scott_xP said:

@Samfr
As @thhamilton notes it would also make it easier for an immigrant to get a public sector job than a Brit. Just so much genius.