Latin and French are the best languages to swear in, it is like wiping your arse with silk.
Rabelais, no slouch at swearing in french, has a whole chapter in Gargantua about what makes the best torche-cul and concludes that it is the neck of a live goose.
The logistics of this baffle me. Are you meant to sit and.. produce.. with an actual goose standing there staring at you while it awaits an experience that its tiny mind cannot begin to predict. Or does someone fetch one to you when you're good and ready? How does it work, mechanically? Is there a risk of it pecking you in places you don't want pecked? What happens afterwards? Do you have a panicked goose running around hitting the walls, leaving unpleasant streaks at approximately neck height? Does any of this seem remotely worth the trouble? Oh, who am I kidding, I want still want to try it.
Pehaps you are to have someone sedate the goose before the whole messy business begins.
I imagine it's quite peaceful to sit there, nudging a loaf out, with a goose lying on the tiles by your feet, slowly breathing a dreamless bird sleep, completely unaware of the state it's going to wake up in.
Latin and French are the best languages to swear in, it is like wiping your arse with silk.
Izal was like wiping your arse with greaseproof paper.
I remember being I'm York and being so desperate for a shit that I knocked on a random house door and asking if I could use there toilet.
What we're the odds of them having f***ing Izal!
5 hrs earlier I had proposed to Mrs BJ in a romantic gesture in an Italian Restaurant.
She wasn't impressed that 5 hrs later after 2 closed public toilets I was shuffling up to houses clenched cheek style and asking random strangers for use of their facilities.
She said I deserved Izal!
She didn't revoke her acceptance of my proposal mind.
Weren't we supposed to be getting an avalanche of stand downs this weekend? Has anyone since Leadsom? Todays family reactions to the Draft was fairly positive but 'not gonna happen is it?'
Latin and French are the best languages to swear in, it is like wiping your arse with silk.
Izal was like wiping your arse with greaseproof paper.
I remember being I'm York and being so desperate for a shit that I knocked on a random house door and asking if I could use there toilet.
What we're the odds of them having f***ing Izal!
*Disinfectant-scented* greaseproof paper.
Never been an effective toilet paper.
I remember only too well. Especially if one had the runs. My school had it ...
PS Just to maintain the relevance to earlier discussion of national service - the Army compo rations given to us cadets in the 1970s also issued niggardly amounts of shiny toilet paper (unscented) in the tins with sweets and matches etc. As a friend said, one sheet up, one down, and one to polish. No fun at all in the rain in the hills.
No wildfowl on the fell? A duck on the bluff? A swan on the muir?
Latin and French are the best languages to swear in, it is like wiping your arse with silk.
Izal was like wiping your arse with greaseproof paper.
I remember being I'm York and being so desperate for a shit that I knocked on a random house door and asking if I could use there toilet.
What we're the odds of them having f***ing Izal!
*Disinfectant-scented* greaseproof paper.
Never been an effective toilet paper.
I remember only too well. Especially if one had the runs. My school had it ...
PS Just to maintain the relevance to earlier discussion of national service - the Army compo rations given to us cadets in the 1970s also issued niggardly amounts of shiny toilet paper (unscented) in the tins with sweets and matches etc. As a friend said, one sheet up, one down, and one to polish. No fun at all in the rain in the hills.
No wildfowl on the fell? A duck on the bluff? A swan on the muir?
Hadn't got as far as Rabelais! And, in any case, feather lice and ticks ...
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
So Labour says no changes to IC and NI...so my guess would be new council tax bands, IHT threshold being cut, raid on pensions and capital gains cut to zero allowance / increase in tax rate, as a minimum to raise extra taxes.
I don't think they'll cut the IHT threshold. IHT isn't popular and the basic threshold has already been frozen at £325k for 15 years. I think they'll probably leave IHT completely as it is.
But I suspect they will:
- Bring CGT rates in line with IT rates - which is a big increase
- Dramatically cut back ISAs. Firstly reduce the £20k annual investment limit to about £5k. Maybe also put a cap on the total amount you can have invested in ISAs - say £100k or £200k. If they do that, the question is what happens to people with ISAs already above the cap? But whatever the detail, it'll be a dramatic reduction in the scope for investing completely outside of tax.
Cutting the IHT threshold just means more people put their property in trust etc.
Cutting the ISA limits seems clever - it’s well known that excessive savings are the weak point of the British economy.
It'd be a pretty rotten thing to do to people with modest savings if they tried. Would be a less bitter pill to swallow if the wealthy were also given a good whack though. We could really do with much heavier property taxes, but failing that the abolition of higher rate tax relief on pension contributions would raise a lot of money - somewhere in the ballpark of £15bn, That'd be sufficient to raise defence spending from 2.3% to 2.5% (£4bn), abolish the two child benefit cap (£2bn), double the rate of Carer's Allowance (£3.5bn), double subsidies for bus travel in England (£2.5bn, allowing for Barnett consequentials), and still leave £3bn to spend on other goodies.
The idea that there's no money left for anything is bollocks. The main hope for meaningful change post-election is that Labour will stick to its excessively meek and cautious plans for only so long as it takes to persuade the Tory core to switch sides or sit on their hands come July 4th - and then grab them by the ankles and give them a bloody good shake as soon as the election is out of the way.
Don't forget reducing the deficit, paying down the debt. We pay £116bn a year just to service borrowing.
I like the idea of a, "paying off Tory debt," tax. 0.5% annual charge on all property sort of thing.
But I understand that the Treasury doesn't like hypothecated taxes.
Latin and French are the best languages to swear in, it is like wiping your arse with silk.
Izal was like wiping your arse with greaseproof paper.
I remember being I'm York and being so desperate for a shit that I knocked on a random house door and asking if I could use there toilet.
What we're the odds of them having f***ing Izal!
*Disinfectant-scented* greaseproof paper.
Never been an effective toilet paper.
I remember only too well. Especially if one had the runs. My school had it ...
PS Just to maintain the relevance to earlier discussion of national service - the Army compo rations given to us cadets in the 1970s also issued niggardly amounts of shiny toilet paper (unscented) in the tins with sweets and matches etc. As a friend said, one sheet up, one down, and one to polish. No fun at all in the rain in the hills.
No wildfowl on the fell? A duck on the bluff? A swan on the muir?
Hadn't got as far as Rabelais! And, in any case, feather lice and ticks ...
Handful of moss, then. The smooth gravel from an ox-bow lake. There's always a way.
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
Actually, the charity in question does seal with that sort of thing, albeit with a little mroe organization. It gives me is a printout of sticky labels with "my" number on it - every time I drop off a bagof stuff I put one of the labels on it, and the volunteers prepare the price labels accordingly.
But for me it's as much about recycling unwanted goods as far as possible.
I joked down thread about Sunak proposing reintroducing corporal punishment....I am not sure it is pie in the sky.
About 10 minutes ago I joked about them making national service a requirement to vote... I'm not laughing now. This latest development makes me think they would, if they could.
The Conservative Party is beyond parody at this point.
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
Actually, the charity in question does seal with that sort of thing, albeit with a little mroe organization. It gives me is a printout of sticky labels with "my" number on it - every time I drop off a bagof stuff I put one of the labels on it, and the volunteers prepare the price labels accordingly.
But for me it's as much about recycling unwanted goods as far as possible.
"Dead white man’s clothes It’s the dirty secret behind the world’s fashion addiction. Many of the clothes we donate to charity end up dumped in landfill, creating an environmental catastrophe on the other side of the world."
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
Actually, the charity in question does seal with that sort of thing, albeit with a little mroe organization. It gives me is a printout of sticky labels with "my" number on it - every time I drop off a bagof stuff I put one of the labels on it, and the volunteers prepare the price labels accordingly.
But for me it's as much about recycling unwanted goods as far as possible.
"Dead white man’s clothes It’s the dirty secret behind the world’s fashion addiction. Many of the clothes we donate to charity end up dumped in landfill, creating an environmental catastrophe on the other side of the world."
I joked down thread about Sunak proposing reintroducing corporal punishment....I am not sure it is pie in the sky.
About 10 minutes ago I joked about them making national service a requirement to vote... I'm not laughing now. This latest development makes me think they would, if they could.
The Conservative Party is beyond parody at this point.
I just can't work out what focus groups they have done that have said #1 priority not inflation, not cost of living, not interest rates, not crime, not immigration, not getting GP appointment, not NHS waiting lists....no its making kids do voluntary work....two days and counting worth of media.
33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Reform vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.
I joked down thread about Sunak proposing reintroducing corporal punishment....I am not sure it is pie in the sky.
About 10 minutes ago I joked about them making national service a requirement to vote... I'm not laughing now. This latest development makes me think they would, if they could.
The Conservative Party is beyond parody at this point.
I just can't work out what focus groups they have done that have said #1 priority not inflation, not cost of living, not interest rates, not crime, not immigration, not getting GP appointment, not NHS waiting lists....no its making kids do voluntary work.
To me instinctively, it feels like Labour have the most impressive social media campaign they've ever had.
That probably doesn't mean an awful lot - but the Tories were very good in 2019 so I find it odd they seem to have left the field. Cummings to his credit, understood this. Something they did very intelligently, was to run lots of ads for most of the campaign, check their response and then run the best ones in the last week.
I think the other parties had prepped for a May election as a precaution so had stuff ready to go.
I think this is further evidence that the Tory campaign is not ready, ant Sunak caught his own party on the hop.
Our Lib Dem election leaflet was being delivered the evening of the 4th July announcement. We had it printed and bundled and ready to go.
33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Refirm vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.
I agree the theory is sound in focusing on core vote red meat to salvage as best they can.
But is this really what the Tory core vote was looking for? I know a lot of Tories, and to be fair I haven't had a chance to check in with most of them since the announcement in an organic way, but I struggle to think this is the sort of thing that would get their pulses racing.
Increased funding for the military, a deeper crackdown on benefit scroungers, more word on Rwanda, that's what I'd have expected.
I joked down thread about Sunak proposing reintroducing corporal punishment....I am not sure it is pie in the sky.
About 10 minutes ago I joked about them making national service a requirement to vote... I'm not laughing now. This latest development makes me think they would, if they could.
The Conservative Party is beyond parody at this point.
I just can't work out what focus groups they have done that have said #1 priority not inflation, not cost of living, not interest rates, not crime, not immigration, not getting GP appointment, not NHS waiting lists....no its making kids do voluntary work....two days and counting worth of media.
They haven't. They are filling the void between call and manifesto with red meat.
33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Reform vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.
Surely then you go low tax, raise IHT threshold, tough on crime, much stronger rules on work visas....that's red meat to the core strategy.
Fight an election on protecting private schools and you will lose.
Nothing to do with arguments or morality it is simply a case of numbers.
I know that. But morality should play a part. I am no fan of private schools either in concept or execution but they are merely an expression of the urge of the wealthy to give their children the best education they can pay for, and for the life of me I don't feel the need to stop them. Wealth redistribution should be done via redistributive taxation, not thru actions like this.
Remembered earlier about the Assisted Places Scheme, which New Labour also canned:
I joked down thread about Sunak proposing reintroducing corporal punishment....I am not sure it is pie in the sky.
About 10 minutes ago I joked about them making national service a requirement to vote... I'm not laughing now. This latest development makes me think they would, if they could.
The Conservative Party is beyond parody at this point.
POLL WORKER: "Sorry madam, you need to produce ID to vote" WOULD-BE VOTER: "But I've given you my passport, driver's licence AND my birth certificate" POLL WORKER: "We only accept NSID or IDs issues by fee-paying schools" WOULD-BE VOTER: "But I haven't done National Service! I'm fifty seven and it was only introduced ten years ago" POLL WORKER: "Madam, please, you are disrupting this polling station, kindly move on or we'll have to sedate you under the Terrorism Act 2026 and have you removed to Burundi"
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.
33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Refirm vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.
I agree the theory is sound in focusing on core vote red meat to salvage as best they can.
But is this really what the Tory core vote was looking for? I know a lot of Tories, and to be fair I haven't had a chance to check in with most of them since the announcement in an organic way, but I struggle to think this is the sort of thing that would get their pulses racing.
Increased funding for the military, a deeper crackdown on benefit scroungers, more word on Rwanda, that's what I'd have expected.
It's not an anathema to them i'd think. I assume this is targeted at Faragists, with the assumption it doesn't drive away core voters
I joked down thread about Sunak proposing reintroducing corporal punishment....I am not sure it is pie in the sky.
About 10 minutes ago I joked about them making national service a requirement to vote... I'm not laughing now. This latest development makes me think they would, if they could.
It's a question they will now legitimately be asked. They'll say that's ridiculous.
But why would it be? If they are restricting jobs based on whether you've done national service why not other things?
I joked down thread about Sunak proposing reintroducing corporal punishment....I am not sure it is pie in the sky.
About 10 minutes ago I joked about them making national service a requirement to vote... I'm not laughing now. This latest development makes me think they would, if they could.
The Conservative Party is beyond parody at this point.
I just can't work out what focus groups they have done that have said #1 priority not inflation, not cost of living, not interest rates, not crime, not immigration, not getting GP appointment, not NHS waiting lists....no its making kids do voluntary work....two days and counting worth of media.
Three rancid and bitter pensioners in their late 80s who well up every time they hear Vera Lynn.
33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Reform vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.
Surely then you go low tax, raise IHT threshold, tough on crime, much stronger rules on work visas....that's red meat to the core strategy.
Manifesto for the core, fill the void until it with Faragist friendly fun
33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Refirm vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.
I agree the theory is sound in focusing on core vote red meat to salvage as best they can.
But is this really what the Tory core vote was looking for? I know a lot of Tories, and to be fair I haven't had a chance to check in with most of them since the announcement in an organic way, but I struggle to think this is the sort of thing that would get their pulses racing.
Increased funding for the military, a deeper crackdown on benefit scroungers, more word on Rwanda, that's what I'd have expected.
It's not an anathema to them i'd think. I assume this is targeted at Faragists, with the assumption it doesn't drive away core voters
Well I fear they may have missed the mark on that one. Staying at home was a real risk already, it may have increased.
Tories now saying that teenagers who agree to do a year of military service could get 'fast tracked interviews for grad schemes in private and public sectors' afterwards.
Sunak: "We want to make sure Britain's future generations can get the most out of national service."
Tories now saying that teenagers who agree to do a year of military service could get 'fast tracked interviews for grad schemes in private and public sectors' afterwards.
Sunak: "We want to make sure Britain's future generations can get the most out of national service."
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.
Ah - I've got where we are at cross purposes. THis is what happens: "However, a charity can offer to act as an agent for supporters and sell goods on their behalf. If the supporter agrees to donate the sale proceeds, and signs a Gift Aid declaration, that donation can then qualify for Gift Aid, under the Retail Gift Aid scheme."
Another charity wanted to apply that to clearing a relative's house, but they left it too late - by the time it was happening, it was the executors rather than a beneficiary who were handing over the stuff so no GA to confer. Point is it does happen.
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.
Ah - I've got where we are at cross purposes. THis is what happens: "However, a charity can offer to act as an agent for supporters and sell goods on their behalf. If the supporter agrees to donate the sale proceeds, and signs a Gift Aid declaration, that donation can then qualify for Gift Aid, under the Retail Gift Aid scheme."
Another charity wanted to apply that to clearing a relative's house, but they left it too late - by the time it was happening, it was the executors rather than a beneficiary who were handing over the stuff so no GA to confer. Point is it does happen.
Yep. I was thinking more of the people just wandering in and donating books to Oxfam etc. Unless they are set up as a regular donation with the money signed over to the charity at the end of each fiancial year then gift aid cannot apply.
I assume that in theory gift aid could apply to Prvate School fees if they are charities. Is this something that is already done? If not it seems an obvious way to offset the VAT imposition.
Tories now saying that teenagers who agree to do a year of military service could get 'fast tracked interviews for grad schemes in private and public sectors' afterwards.
Sunak: "We want to make sure Britain's future generations can get the most out of national service."
Tories now saying that teenagers who agree to do a year of military service could get 'fast tracked interviews for grad schemes in private and public sectors' afterwards.
Sunak: "We want to make sure Britain's future generations can get the most out of national service."
For the Conservatives to lose to him... that means the public must really hate the Tories.
And they do. And a lot of it is utterly self-inflicted.
To return to Casino's school problem for a moment (sorry), if we accept the premise that the school is closing "because Labour are going to win", then the blame for that falls squarely on
BoZo Truss Richi
Casino should be focusing his righteous anger on those cretins for screwing the pooch so completely
I think this is one you're struggling with as the reality of a Labour government comes into focus somewhere deep in the annals of your mind, so instead you're trying to fingerpoint to what you're comfortable fingerpointing toward instead.
The school operated on just a 2% gross margin last year. A 20% demand shock (everyone knows Labour is going to win) has led to a significant drop in the pupil roll for next year and that's been enough to put it into administration.
That wouldn't have happened were it not for Labour's VAT on private schools policy. It's killed it off.
If it helps, I think the scenario you present is all too plausible. I'm sorry that it's happened, and for the parents, pupils and teachers affected.
The pushback you're getting on this is interesting.
The pushback I'm getting is because absolutely no-one wants to hear anything negative about Keir Starmer and our prospective new Labour government.
Isn't the pushback more about not seeing the bigger picture? I'm sure it's sad that this school has financial problems. But we're talking about a change to tax policy that affects a group of the most privileged people in the country, one that many other private schools and parents will negotiate, and which will allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% of kids who don't have the privilege of private schooling.
It's always possible to pick sad stories of those on the wrong end of a policy. And it's not like Tories have given a jot about the misery they've inflicted on far less privileged people over the past 14 years. But I guess the kids Tory policies pushed into poverty deserved it, unlike Tarquin and Jocasta - who might now have to mix with the hoi polloi. For shame.
Except, (a) it doesn't affect the most privileged in the country - that's just the rhetoric - because they won't be affected; it's hard-working professionals and the small independent schools that will be, (b), it will not allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% and will actually cost the taxpayer, and, (c) your last point seems to be an eye for an eye, which isn't invalidates what little merit your first two points have.
None.
People who can afford today’s private school fees are certainly at the top end of “hard-working professionals”. 7% of kids go to private schools and that’s very closely correlated with income, i.e. the top 7% earners.
1 in 5 adults in the UK has attended a private school as a child (20%) and it's actually higher amongst younger age groups:
It's much more common than you think.
I went to the source and not much background data on, for instance, the questions used to get these figures. But I'm going to call bullshit on the output number.
It implies that most of those 18-24 year olds who attended private school at some point, did so for only one or two years each. Is that really likely? What would be driving that sort of behaviour?
Example: My niece was sent to a wanky private school for a year before she started infant school. Presumably that would be included in the stats.
Mrs Foxy went to private school for a year when she came from Africa, but hated it as all of the other kids were much posher and had ponies and such. She transferred to the local Comp and was much happier there.
The discussion suggests the UK independent sector but I wonder:
- Given that, iirc, 15% of the UK population is foreign born and that is a percentage that will vary with age, might some element of private schooling involved institutions abroad where the balance of state and private provision might be different. - Given the source is a tutor organisation, might it include the sort of private hour a week top up tuition that is prevalent especially in grammar areas? (in which case my kids, at mainstream state schools throughout, would class as privately educated for around an hour a week for a year or two)
I think if 5.9% are in private education as their full time provision at any given time, and that that number has risen, it suggests to me that the commonly quoted 7% for the numbers that go to UK private schools full time weren't too far wide of the mark, but may be slightly out of date.
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.
Ah - I've got where we are at cross purposes. THis is what happens: "However, a charity can offer to act as an agent for supporters and sell goods on their behalf. If the supporter agrees to donate the sale proceeds, and signs a Gift Aid declaration, that donation can then qualify for Gift Aid, under the Retail Gift Aid scheme."
Another charity wanted to apply that to clearing a relative's house, but they left it too late - by the time it was happening, it was the executors rather than a beneficiary who were handing over the stuff so no GA to confer. Point is it does happen.
Yep. I was thinking more of the people just wandering in and donating books to Oxfam etc. Unless they are set up as a regular donation with the money signed over to the charity at the end of each fiancial year then gift aid cannot apply.
I assume that in theory gift aid could apply to Prvate School fees if they are charities. Is this something that is already done? If not it seems an obvious way to offset the VAT imposition.
Isn't Gift Aid only on donations? If you go to a National Trust property and buy a keepsake from the shop the National Trust can't claim 25% on top of the sale price.
33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Reform vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.
Surely then you go low tax, raise IHT threshold, tough on crime, much stronger rules on work visas....that's red meat to the core strategy.
Manifesto for the core, fill the void until it with Faragist friendly fun
They are a bit stuck with IHT. Already under heavy Labour fire for the totally unfunded destruction of the pension fund known as NI. If they now say IHT will be slashed then another massive hole.
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.
Ah - I've got where we are at cross purposes. THis is what happens: "However, a charity can offer to act as an agent for supporters and sell goods on their behalf. If the supporter agrees to donate the sale proceeds, and signs a Gift Aid declaration, that donation can then qualify for Gift Aid, under the Retail Gift Aid scheme."
Another charity wanted to apply that to clearing a relative's house, but they left it too late - by the time it was happening, it was the executors rather than a beneficiary who were handing over the stuff so no GA to confer. Point is it does happen.
Yep. I was thinking more of the people just wandering in and donating books to Oxfam etc. Unless they are set up as a regular donation with the money signed over to the charity at the end of each fiancial year then gift aid cannot apply.
I assume that in theory gift aid could apply to Prvate School fees if they are charities. Is this something that is already done? If not it seems an obvious way to offset the VAT imposition.
Isn't Gift Aid only on donations? If you go to a National Trust property and buy a keepsake from the shop the National Trust can't claim 25% on top of the sale price.
Not sure. There are various places I have visited (zoo's etc) where I have paid entry fee and been asked to sign a gift aid form so they get the tax back on my entry fee.
To be honest I have never really looked closely at this area so don't know. It just seemed like a bit of a whizzer scheme if it were allowed.
I joked down thread about Sunak proposing reintroducing corporal punishment....I am not sure it is pie in the sky.
About 10 minutes ago I joked about them making national service a requirement to vote... I'm not laughing now. This latest development makes me think they would, if they could.
It's a question they will now legitimately be asked. They'll say that's ridiculous.
But why would it be? If they are restricting jobs based on whether you've done national service why not other things?
It's that "yes and ho" brainstorming scene played out on the front pages of the Conservative press.
On one level, I know it's a particularly silly game the Conservatives are playing, and I don't recall Brown in 2010 or Major in 1997 taking the piss quite so shamelessly.
But leaving aside the rights and wrongs, it's worth remembering that the public sector is famous for having a huge excess of applicants for jobs. The government really really doesn't hold the cards here.
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.
Ah - I've got where we are at cross purposes. THis is what happens: "However, a charity can offer to act as an agent for supporters and sell goods on their behalf. If the supporter agrees to donate the sale proceeds, and signs a Gift Aid declaration, that donation can then qualify for Gift Aid, under the Retail Gift Aid scheme."
Another charity wanted to apply that to clearing a relative's house, but they left it too late - by the time it was happening, it was the executors rather than a beneficiary who were handing over the stuff so no GA to confer. Point is it does happen.
Yep. I was thinking more of the people just wandering in and donating books to Oxfam etc. Unless they are set up as a regular donation with the money signed over to the charity at the end of each fiancial year then gift aid cannot apply.
I assume that in theory gift aid could apply to Prvate School fees if they are charities. Is this something that is already done? If not it seems an obvious way to offset the VAT imposition.
Quite so.
On the private schools, my impression from dealing with subs etc for learned and county societies and the like is that it's OK to pony up to support their activities with gift aid, and HMRC doesn't mind too much if you get the Proceedings of the Barsetshire Antiquarian and Natural History Society every year, but that's pretty much generalised and part of the normal doings for everyone. It'd be different if you paid them for a specific service like classifying your potsherd collection, etc.
You could likewise send a cheque to Borchester College for the warm feeling in your heart, and get GA, but not if you send your brat there.
IANAE, but I've noticed that there's a tendency to split the commercial/operating activities from the charitable organization in many museums and schools, too, which hints that this is a real issue.
Jailed? Where? The Tories can't even jail murderers and rapists and PPE fraudsters as the jails are full.
Sorry Mrs Jones, we can't deal with the armed robbery on your shop as we are tied up right now trying to find your son as he missed his National Service induction. And aggravated the crime by saying some nasty things about Mr Sunak on Tiktok.
33% strategy. The Tories are running a William Hague strategy, get 33% or as close as possible and save as many as you can. It will be a red meat election. Strategically in a lost cause its sensible and with the fury over Farage deserting the good ship UK it could work with a Reform vote to target, and by 'work' I mean hold 200 seats.
Surely then you go low tax, raise IHT threshold, tough on crime, much stronger rules on work visas....that's red meat to the core strategy.
Manifesto for the core, fill the void until it with Faragist friendly fun
They are a bit stuck with IHT. Already under heavy Labour fire for the totally unfunded destruction of the pension fund known as NI. If they now say IHT will be slashed then another massive hole.
Tories now saying that teenagers who agree to do a year of military service could get 'fast tracked interviews for grad schemes in private and public sectors' afterwards.
Sunak: "We want to make sure Britain's future generations can get the most out of national service."
For the Conservatives to lose to him... that means the public must really hate the Tories.
And they do. And a lot of it is utterly self-inflicted.
To return to Casino's school problem for a moment (sorry), if we accept the premise that the school is closing "because Labour are going to win", then the blame for that falls squarely on
BoZo Truss Richi
Casino should be focusing his righteous anger on those cretins for screwing the pooch so completely
I think this is one you're struggling with as the reality of a Labour government comes into focus somewhere deep in the annals of your mind, so instead you're trying to fingerpoint to what you're comfortable fingerpointing toward instead.
The school operated on just a 2% gross margin last year. A 20% demand shock (everyone knows Labour is going to win) has led to a significant drop in the pupil roll for next year and that's been enough to put it into administration.
That wouldn't have happened were it not for Labour's VAT on private schools policy. It's killed it off.
If it helps, I think the scenario you present is all too plausible. I'm sorry that it's happened, and for the parents, pupils and teachers affected.
The pushback you're getting on this is interesting.
The pushback I'm getting is because absolutely no-one wants to hear anything negative about Keir Starmer and our prospective new Labour government.
Isn't the pushback more about not seeing the bigger picture? I'm sure it's sad that this school has financial problems. But we're talking about a change to tax policy that affects a group of the most privileged people in the country, one that many other private schools and parents will negotiate, and which will allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% of kids who don't have the privilege of private schooling.
It's always possible to pick sad stories of those on the wrong end of a policy. And it's not like Tories have given a jot about the misery they've inflicted on far less privileged people over the past 14 years. But I guess the kids Tory policies pushed into poverty deserved it, unlike Tarquin and Jocasta - who might now have to mix with the hoi polloi. For shame.
Except, (a) it doesn't affect the most privileged in the country - that's just the rhetoric - because they won't be affected; it's hard-working professionals and the small independent schools that will be, (b), it will not allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% and will actually cost the taxpayer, and, (c) your last point seems to be an eye for an eye, which isn't invalidates what little merit your first two points have.
None.
People who can afford today’s private school fees are certainly at the top end of “hard-working professionals”. 7% of kids go to private schools and that’s very closely correlated with income, i.e. the top 7% earners.
1 in 5 adults in the UK has attended a private school as a child (20%) and it's actually higher amongst younger age groups:
It's much more common than you think.
I went to the source and not much background data on, for instance, the questions used to get these figures. But I'm going to call bullshit on the output number.
It implies that most of those 18-24 year olds who attended private school at some point, did so for only one or two years each. Is that really likely? What would be driving that sort of behaviour?
Example: My niece was sent to a wanky private school for a year before she started infant school. Presumably that would be included in the stats.
Mrs Foxy went to private school for a year when she came from Africa, but hated it as all of the other kids were much posher and had ponies and such. She transferred to the local Comp and was much happier there.
The discussion suggests the UK independent sector but I wonder:
- Given that, iirc, 15% of the UK population is foreign born and that is a percentage that will vary with age, might some element of private schooling involved institutions abroad where the balance of state and private provision might be different. - Given the source is a tutor organisation, might it include the sort of private hour a week top up tuition that is prevalent especially in grammar areas? (in which case my kids, at mainstream state schools throughout, would class as privately educated for around an hour a week for a year or two)
I think if 5.9% are in private education as their full time provision at any given time, and that that number has risen, it suggests to me that the commonly quoted 7% for the numbers that go to UK private schools full time weren't too far wide of the mark, but may be slightly out of date.
Good point. Most of my Subcontinental and African colleagues were educated privately in their original countries. I am not sure how they would fit these stats.
@Tomorrow'sMPs @tomorrowsmps · 42m 🔵 I reckon the Conservatives don't yet have candidates in 32 of the seats they currently hold (quite apart from the 150 or so other seats where they don't seem to have picked candidates yet either). Contrast that with Labour who now lack candidates in only 31 seats of all kinds
For the Conservatives to lose to him... that means the public must really hate the Tories.
And they do. And a lot of it is utterly self-inflicted.
To return to Casino's school problem for a moment (sorry), if we accept the premise that the school is closing "because Labour are going to win", then the blame for that falls squarely on
BoZo Truss Richi
Casino should be focusing his righteous anger on those cretins for screwing the pooch so completely
I think this is one you're struggling with as the reality of a Labour government comes into focus somewhere deep in the annals of your mind, so instead you're trying to fingerpoint to what you're comfortable fingerpointing toward instead.
The school operated on just a 2% gross margin last year. A 20% demand shock (everyone knows Labour is going to win) has led to a significant drop in the pupil roll for next year and that's been enough to put it into administration.
That wouldn't have happened were it not for Labour's VAT on private schools policy. It's killed it off.
If it helps, I think the scenario you present is all too plausible. I'm sorry that it's happened, and for the parents, pupils and teachers affected.
The pushback you're getting on this is interesting.
The pushback I'm getting is because absolutely no-one wants to hear anything negative about Keir Starmer and our prospective new Labour government.
Isn't the pushback more about not seeing the bigger picture? I'm sure it's sad that this school has financial problems. But we're talking about a change to tax policy that affects a group of the most privileged people in the country, one that many other private schools and parents will negotiate, and which will allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% of kids who don't have the privilege of private schooling.
It's always possible to pick sad stories of those on the wrong end of a policy. And it's not like Tories have given a jot about the misery they've inflicted on far less privileged people over the past 14 years. But I guess the kids Tory policies pushed into poverty deserved it, unlike Tarquin and Jocasta - who might now have to mix with the hoi polloi. For shame.
Except, (a) it doesn't affect the most privileged in the country - that's just the rhetoric - because they won't be affected; it's hard-working professionals and the small independent schools that will be, (b), it will not allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% and will actually cost the taxpayer, and, (c) your last point seems to be an eye for an eye, which isn't invalidates what little merit your first two points have.
None.
People who can afford today’s private school fees are certainly at the top end of “hard-working professionals”. 7% of kids go to private schools and that’s very closely correlated with income, i.e. the top 7% earners.
1 in 5 adults in the UK has attended a private school as a child (20%) and it's actually higher amongst younger age groups:
It's much more common than you think.
I went to the source and not much background data on, for instance, the questions used to get these figures. But I'm going to call bullshit on the output number.
It implies that most of those 18-24 year olds who attended private school at some point, did so for only one or two years each. Is that really likely? What would be driving that sort of behaviour?
Example: My niece was sent to a wanky private school for a year before she started infant school. Presumably that would be included in the stats.
Mrs Foxy went to private school for a year when she came from Africa, but hated it as all of the other kids were much posher and had ponies and such. She transferred to the local Comp and was much happier there.
The discussion suggests the UK independent sector but I wonder:
- Given that, iirc, 15% of the UK population is foreign born and that is a percentage that will vary with age, might some element of private schooling involved institutions abroad where the balance of state and private provision might be different. - Given the source is a tutor organisation, might it include the sort of private hour a week top up tuition that is prevalent especially in grammar areas? (in which case my kids, at mainstream state schools throughout, would class as privately educated for around an hour a week for a year or two)
I think if 5.9% are in private education as their full time provision at any given time, and that that number has risen, it suggests to me that the commonly quoted 7% for the numbers that go to UK private schools full time weren't too far wide of the mark, but may be slightly out of date.
Good point. Most of my Subcontinental and African colleagues were educated privately in their original countries. I am not sure how they would fit these stats.
Very easily answered. The stat would be a big fat zero. Not allowed to apply to be your colleagues in the NHS without completed UK national service card, see.
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.
Is that right? I donate my old books and old clothes to Barnardo's. Every year I get a letter saying how much my donations have raised and how much Gift Aid the Government has chipped in.
For the Conservatives to lose to him... that means the public must really hate the Tories.
And they do. And a lot of it is utterly self-inflicted.
To return to Casino's school problem for a moment (sorry), if we accept the premise that the school is closing "because Labour are going to win", then the blame for that falls squarely on
BoZo Truss Richi
Casino should be focusing his righteous anger on those cretins for screwing the pooch so completely
I think this is one you're struggling with as the reality of a Labour government comes into focus somewhere deep in the annals of your mind, so instead you're trying to fingerpoint to what you're comfortable fingerpointing toward instead.
The school operated on just a 2% gross margin last year. A 20% demand shock (everyone knows Labour is going to win) has led to a significant drop in the pupil roll for next year and that's been enough to put it into administration.
That wouldn't have happened were it not for Labour's VAT on private schools policy. It's killed it off.
If it helps, I think the scenario you present is all too plausible. I'm sorry that it's happened, and for the parents, pupils and teachers affected.
The pushback you're getting on this is interesting.
The pushback I'm getting is because absolutely no-one wants to hear anything negative about Keir Starmer and our prospective new Labour government.
Isn't the pushback more about not seeing the bigger picture? I'm sure it's sad that this school has financial problems. But we're talking about a change to tax policy that affects a group of the most privileged people in the country, one that many other private schools and parents will negotiate, and which will allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% of kids who don't have the privilege of private schooling.
It's always possible to pick sad stories of those on the wrong end of a policy. And it's not like Tories have given a jot about the misery they've inflicted on far less privileged people over the past 14 years. But I guess the kids Tory policies pushed into poverty deserved it, unlike Tarquin and Jocasta - who might now have to mix with the hoi polloi. For shame.
Except, (a) it doesn't affect the most privileged in the country - that's just the rhetoric - because they won't be affected; it's hard-working professionals and the small independent schools that will be, (b), it will not allow more money to be spent on the education of the 93% and will actually cost the taxpayer, and, (c) your last point seems to be an eye for an eye, which isn't invalidates what little merit your first two points have.
None.
People who can afford today’s private school fees are certainly at the top end of “hard-working professionals”. 7% of kids go to private schools and that’s very closely correlated with income, i.e. the top 7% earners.
1 in 5 adults in the UK has attended a private school as a child (20%) and it's actually higher amongst younger age groups:
It's much more common than you think.
I went to the source and not much background data on, for instance, the questions used to get these figures. But I'm going to call bullshit on the output number.
It implies that most of those 18-24 year olds who attended private school at some point, did so for only one or two years each. Is that really likely? What would be driving that sort of behaviour?
Example: My niece was sent to a wanky private school for a year before she started infant school. Presumably that would be included in the stats.
Mrs Foxy went to private school for a year when she came from Africa, but hated it as all of the other kids were much posher and had ponies and such. She transferred to the local Comp and was much happier there.
The discussion suggests the UK independent sector but I wonder:
- Given that, iirc, 15% of the UK population is foreign born and that is a percentage that will vary with age, might some element of private schooling involved institutions abroad where the balance of state and private provision might be different. - Given the source is a tutor organisation, might it include the sort of private hour a week top up tuition that is prevalent especially in grammar areas? (in which case my kids, at mainstream state schools throughout, would class as privately educated for around an hour a week for a year or two)
I think if 5.9% are in private education as their full time provision at any given time, and that that number has risen, it suggests to me that the commonly quoted 7% for the numbers that go to UK private schools full time weren't too far wide of the mark, but may be slightly out of date.
Good point. Most of my Subcontinental and African colleagues were educated privately in their original countries. I am not sure how they would fit these stats.
Very easily answered. The stat would be a big fat zero. Not allowed to apply to be your colleagues in the NHS without completed UK national service card, see.
Well, how else can it be interpreted?
I was thinking of the 20% private education stat, but good point about whether international recruits would need to do National Service first.
Hence the way they behave in the workplace ... in all seriousness.
Engage pedant mode. Pedant mode engaged.
They are “office holders”, not employees or self employed. It is its own thing with its own rules.
Your substantive point still stands.
Thank you - quite right. Definitely needed correction. Or amendment.
It is an interesting point. Could we make them employees of the House of Commons to give them a taste of the actual standards the rest of us are held to? Don’t see why not? They need freedom to vote with their conscience but that’s all.
Would make things like the Boris discipline case easy, because you could just make lying to the House gross misconduct and the burden of proof would be that of an employment tribunal.
If education can't even function with VAT, like any old retailer or professional services firm, then maybe it's a highly inefficient business that can't deliver value for money, and maybe the upper-middle class tax break pushed far too much resources into an inefficient sector.
It's not a business at all. And it's not recovering much in the way of inputs to match it's outputs like retailers do
Private schools are businesses.
They are not, on average. Nothing stopping them being, but the ones I went to and sent my children to (5 in all) were in all cases not for profit trusts. So unlike a business you can't hike profitability to deal with VAT shocks.
Lots of businesses are not for profit. A charity shop's a business. If you charge service users a fee for your offer, you are a business.
So, you favour charging VAT on charity shops then?
They do have to pay VAT for goods they buy in. They pay no VAT for donated goods because those are treated like donations for the aims of the charity but are not subject to Gift Aid. In principle, I would have no problem with VAT on donated goods if Gift Aid were then permitted.
Eh, Gift Aid *is* permitted on donated goods, the value being determined by the actual sale. However, this needs a recording system with sticky labels and numbers and all, so not all charities are organised enough for that.
PS Obviously this depends if the donor is a taxpayer with enough tax, and so on. I get a periodic return from one such charity for my records.
As you say, for your typical charity shop donation of second-hand books or clothes, it will not be the case that gift aid is available. At present, the current system is a fairly low-cost substitute that is probably simpler overall to administer.
I think Carynx is wrong anyway. According to the Charity Tax Group, Gift Aid only applies to money. It does not apply to donated goods.
Is that right? I donate my old books and old clothes to Barnardo's. Every year I get a letter saying how much my donations have raised and how much Gift Aid the Government has chipped in.
the loophole is that the shop sells the item on the donor's behalf, the donor of the copy of Gyles Brandreth's 'Breaking the Code' or whatever donates the cash to the charity and then the charity claims gift aid on that.
Seems like a rum way to run a country.
(See also the admission price/donation with free admission thrown in thing.)
Comments
I imagine it's quite peaceful to sit there, nudging a loaf out, with a goose lying on the tiles by your feet, slowly breathing a dreamless bird sleep, completely unaware of the state it's going to wake up in.
https://youtu.be/FNZJneLEsGM?si=9bpY9fwHnFISByFN
Todays family reactions to the Draft was fairly positive but 'not gonna happen is it?'
But I understand that the Treasury doesn't like hypothecated taxes.
Liz Kendall
@leicesterliz
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2h
A message to the pensioners of Britain from the Labour Party
https://x.com/leicesterliz/status/1794801009786834961
Exclusive: Rishi Sunak is considering requiring future applicants for public sector jobs to have completed National Service
It’s one of the enforcement options that would go to the Royal Commission for consideration if he gets to enact the policy
https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1794837181657493854?s=46
Exclusive: Rishi Sunak is considering requiring future applicants for public sector jobs to have completed National Service
It’s one of the enforcement options that would go to the Royal Commission for consideration if he gets to enact the policy
But for me it's as much about recycling unwanted goods as far as possible.
Monday’s GUARDIAN: “Sunak’s national service plan is ‘bonkers,’ says ex-military chief” #TomorrowsPapersToday
I'm really not sure that brainstorming enforcement mechanisms is the angle they want to focus on here.
And what about anyone who wants to be an apprentice at 16 in the public sector?
The Conservative Party is beyond parody at this point.
It’s the dirty secret behind the world’s fashion addiction. Many of the clothes we donate to charity end up dumped in landfill, creating an environmental catastrophe on the other side of the world."
Troubling stuff
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-12/fast-fashion-turning-parts-ghana-into-toxic-landfill/100358702
I wonder when Richi will notice that every Royal serves already...
Most of my donations are books and oddments.
...
But is this really what the Tory core vote was looking for? I know a lot of Tories, and to be fair I haven't had a chance to check in with most of them since the announcement in an organic way, but I struggle to think this is the sort of thing that would get their pulses racing.
Increased funding for the military, a deeper crackdown on benefit scroungers, more word on Rwanda, that's what I'd have expected.
It’s one of the enforcement options that would go to the Royal Commission for consideration if he gets to enact the policy
https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1794837181657493854
WOULD-BE VOTER: "But I've given you my passport, driver's licence AND my birth certificate"
POLL WORKER: "We only accept NSID or IDs issues by fee-paying schools"
WOULD-BE VOTER: "But I haven't done National Service! I'm fifty seven and it was only introduced ten years ago"
POLL WORKER: "Madam, please, you are disrupting this polling station, kindly move on or we'll have to sedate you under the Terrorism Act 2026 and have you removed to Burundi"
https://www.charitytaxgroup.org.uk/tax/donations/gift-aid/gift-aid-on-donated-goods/
COMING SOON: Voters need to have gone to Private School to get a vote
Under Richi's scheme he would have had to join the Army for a year...
Oh, wait.
And he's the Prime Minister.
But why would it be? If they are restricting jobs based on whether you've done national service why not other things?
Sunak: "We want to make sure Britain's future generations can get the most out of national service."
https://x.com/HugoGye/status/1794836849124405431
They are literally making it up as they go along, aren't they?
Another charity wanted to apply that to clearing a relative's house, but they left it too late - by the time it was happening, it was the executors rather than a beneficiary who were handing over the stuff so no GA to confer. Point is it does happen.
"You Idiot, thats Fucking Mental"
I assume that in theory gift aid could apply to Prvate School fees if they are charities. Is this something that is already done? If not it seems an obvious way to offset the VAT imposition.
Hence the way they behave in the workplace ... in all seriousness.
https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1794842931406266625
- Given that, iirc, 15% of the UK population is foreign born and that is a percentage that will vary with age, might some element of private schooling involved institutions abroad where the balance of state and private provision might be different.
- Given the source is a tutor organisation, might it include the sort of private hour a week top up tuition that is prevalent especially in grammar areas? (in which case my kids, at mainstream state schools throughout, would class as privately
educated for around an hour a week for a year or two)
I think if 5.9% are in private education as their full time provision at any given time, and that that number has risen, it suggests to me that the commonly quoted 7% for the numbers that go to UK private schools full time weren't too far wide of the mark, but may be slightly out of date.
I think they will do it anyway.
and PPE fraudstersas the jails are full.To be honest I have never really looked closely at this area so don't know. It just seemed like a bit of a whizzer scheme if it were allowed.
On one level, I know it's a particularly silly game the Conservatives are playing, and I don't recall Brown in 2010 or Major in 1997 taking the piss quite so shamelessly.
But leaving aside the rights and wrongs, it's worth remembering that the public sector is famous for having a huge excess of applicants for jobs. The government really really doesn't hold the cards here.
On the private schools, my impression from dealing with subs etc for learned and county societies and the like is that it's OK to pony up to support their activities with gift aid, and HMRC doesn't mind too much if you get the Proceedings of the Barsetshire Antiquarian and Natural History Society every year, but that's pretty much generalised and part of the normal doings for everyone. It'd be different if you paid them for a specific service like classifying your potsherd collection, etc.
You could likewise send a cheque to Borchester College for the warm feeling in your heart, and get GA, but not if you send your brat there.
IANAE, but I've noticed that there's a tendency to split the commercial/operating activities from the charitable organization in many museums and schools, too, which hints that this is a real issue.
Top tip - if you want to assume a smart arse tone, try and make sure you actually know what you’re talking about.
@tomorrowsmps
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42m
🔵 I reckon the Conservatives don't
yet have candidates in 32 of the seats they currently hold (quite apart from the 150 or so other seats where they don't
seem to have picked candidates yet either). Contrast that with Labour who now lack candidates in only 31 seats of all kinds
Rishi Sunak’s national service pledge is ‘bonkers’, says ex-military chief
They are “office holders”, not employees or self employed. It is its own thing with its own rules.
Your substantive point still stands.
Sunak doubles down on national service plan as Tory discontent mounts
Monday’s Daily MAIL: “Rishi Fights Back After His National Service Plan Is Ridiculed” #TomorrowsPapersToday
Well, how else can it be interpreted?
Would make things like the Boris discipline case easy, because you could just make lying to the House gross misconduct and the burden of proof would be that of an employment tribunal.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gift-aid-what-donations-charities-and-cascs-can-claim-on
the loophole is that the shop sells the item on the donor's behalf, the donor of the copy of Gyles Brandreth's 'Breaking the Code' or whatever donates the cash to the charity and then the charity claims gift aid on that.
Seems like a rum way to run a country.
(See also the admission price/donation with free admission thrown in thing.)