Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
JRM I’d love.
Mordaunt possibly ?
Penny's swordsmanship ensures she survives. .
But she’s in big trouble with her seat isn’t she? I’d say odds on now to lose.
I still think 50/50 - and if their polling position does improve, probably safe.
From what I understand she has built a personal vote in her seat, and is considered to be quite a decent MP, and plus has been visible in government without attracting the particular stench of much of the rest of the Tory Party. Partly because she’s been carrying swords etc.
Certainly possible the tide carries her away, but of all the risky senior MP losses I think she’s got one of the better chances of clinging on.
Personal vote will be overridden this time around, which means that there will be some genuinely decent people who are steamrollered by the momentum (whilst shits like Michael Gove bail). Electoral Calculus reckon it’s 83% likely Labour that Penny loses her seat and I wouldn’t disagree with that.
We’ll see. But then I know you are forecasting Tory apocalypse whereas my gut is something like 1997. We will see as the campaign progresses.
We oscillate between 1997, hung parliament or small majority, and wipeout. There’s surely a non-negligible (read, highly likely) scenario of a big majority, borderline small landslide. A majority between 80 and say 120.
Part of the problem with all this is that by surprising his own Party, Sunak not only left 100 constituencies unselected, but we also now have the incredible optics of rats appearing to flee the sinking hip.
It’s either staggering levels of ineptitude or deliberate sabotage. Either way, this is going to sink them lower, at least for a time.
Catching up, I've had a good laugh tonight. The desperate attempts to resuscitate Sunak by suggesting he's a self-made man born into the most humble of circumstances who pulled himself up by his bootstraps because his parents worked 168 hours a week and he's earned every penny of his multi-millionaire privilege and we could all do the same if we just worked as hard as him and his parents...... Don't think it's going to catch on, somehow.
I feel personally attacked by that comment.
Anyhoo, as somebody who is the victim of the politics of envy, I know it wouldn't catch on.
Paywalled. Can you give us a summary - is it an attack piece or broadly balanced?
I'd say broadly balanced. Testimonials from his co-workers. some personal statements from himself saying he loves a challenge is determined when he gets his teeth into something and works hard. It's a character portrayal rather than a review of his politics.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Is that George Osborne, son of Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock and Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet, co-founder of the firm of fabric and wallpaper designers Osborne & Little?
Yes. Bullied because his parents were "in trade" rather than being landowners. Madness, eh?
But even Sunak, a couple of notches further down the social scale, was still far beyond what the vast majority of us will ever experience. Or Gordon Brown, "humble son of the manse" - except that was a deeply respected position (and his father did a stint as Moderator of the CoS!), and he'd almost certainly have been the poshest boy in his school.
The Uk class system is the scourge of this country. It leads to horrible behaviour at the top and worse massive economic underperformance. Sometimes I wonder is it better to be germany in 1945 starting from scrtach again.
The UK class system remains a ridiculous who's who of old school ties, secret handshakes and pecking orders. And we all know it. We're just not supposed to say it.
We claim it has become more meritocratic in the 21st century, but there will always be a difference between, say BoJo and Cameron, vs Rishi and Osborne. And this is the narcissism of small differences - the top 0.1% vs the top 1%. With the other 99% not getting a look in.
And, as Leon points out, this is all increasingly irrelevant against the cavalcade of foreign oligarchs, who could buy the entire lot of us out and still have change left for the jukebox, and a few goes on the pool table.
But the private education system still trains us to think in those old outdated class terms, and it's probably inescapable for anyone who went through the system, at least at that point in time.
As I said on a thread the other day, there is a certain type of chap who went to Charterhouse (et al), who still thinks he's better than Elon Musk even if he's living in a bedsit above a bookies, because that was the order of things.
It's probably why the UK feels the way it does in the 21st century - a strutting peacock, with no feathers.
Yes, exactly right
And it's gone from being quaint and maybe charming (at its best) to being absolutely comical and embarrassing, which is why I cringe when people try the snob thing on me, now
And that's setting aside the detrimental affect on society, like racism in America
That said, I agree with other commenters that the same exists across Europe. Some of the greatest snobs I've met in my life have been in Germany, Holland and Sweden, appalling people!
Notably the worst snobs are always those who have absolutely nothing else to boast about. They've joined the family firm, done the usual shit, had some kids, wear red socks/trousers, that's it. It is the under-achievers who are most obsessed with their lineage/schooling/uni/club, and are desperate to talk about it, even tangentially - because it is all they have
The BBC in particular have been relentless in their dismissal of Starmer. I suspect the point is to even the field and make a contest out of the election.
In other news Johnson has already invoked the ghost of SJS. Now then, now then.
An interesting figure. I never felt Gove really reached the heights in government he could have done. I think he probably himself was aware that he did not have the public-facing persona to ever lead a party, but he should have had the chance at a great office.
I don’t deny the man is flawed, and certainly can be deeply unlikeable, but he is intelligent and interesting.
To my mind the best minister of the last 14 years by a long way. Also interesting that right across the House and outside it people are also saying he was one of the politest and most considerate to those he worked with.
I am not necessarily sorry to see him go as I don't think he was a particularly good politician - which is what you need to be if you are working in Opposition rather than Government - but I certainly think he had more decency in him than practially every other member of the Government (or the Opposition for that matter)
At justice and environment, certainly.
And yes, I’ve never heard anything other than he was a scrupulously polite and pleasant person to to deal with.
To my mind the best minister of the last 14 years by a long way. Also interesting that right across the House and outside it people are also saying he was one of the politest and most considerate to those he worked with.
Paywalled. Can you give us a summary - is it an attack piece or broadly balanced?
Its pretty balanced, in fact broadly positive, but it doesn't really say anything we don't already know. He serious, but quite dull, occasionally sweary, worked hard to get Labour away from Corbyn, likes footy and music. I think Team Starmer will happy with that from the Telegraph, its a million miles from a hit piece.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Is that George Osborne, son of Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock and Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet, co-founder of the firm of fabric and wallpaper designers Osborne & Little?
Yes. Bullied because his parents were "in trade" rather than being landowners. Madness, eh?
But even Sunak, a couple of notches further down the social scale, was still far beyond what the vast majority of us will ever experience. Or Gordon Brown, "humble son of the manse" - except that was a deeply respected position (and his father did a stint as Moderator of the CoS!), and he'd almost certainly have been the poshest boy in his school.
The Uk class system is the scourge of this country. It leads to horrible behaviour at the top and worse massive economic underperformance. Sometimes I wonder is it better to be germany in 1945 starting from scrtach again.
I know some guys with names like Bismarck whose families seem not to have got the memo about the level playing field
Indeed
You haven’t encountered snobbery until you’ve encountered German aristocratic snobbery.
I remember a Rick Stein programme where he opined "The Indians do 'posh' rather better than the English".
I think Surrey Heath will stay Tory although it could be close, if the Tories are sensible though they will pick a well known local councillor as it will certainly be a LD target seat
The LibDems seem to be up for the fight, according to last night’s Evening Standard, as well as Godalming & Ash. I think Guildford will turn yellow.
Yes. And there will be a poll showing the gap narrowing - the day the polls turned - and I expect the mood on here is as febrile as in the nation at large, and the sense of panic and dismay will be palpable. I can feel it in myself just thinking about it.
And if Starmer himself panics, then the wheels could come off the Labour campaign. It feels like a long time until polling day.
Catching up, I've had a good laugh tonight. The desperate attempts to resuscitate Sunak by suggesting he's a self-made man born into the most humble of circumstances who pulled himself up by his bootstraps because his parents worked 168 hours a week and he's earned every penny of his multi-millionaire privilege and we could all do the same if we just worked as hard as him and his parents...... Don't think it's going to catch on, somehow.
I feel personally attacked by that comment.
Anyhoo, as somebody who is the victim of the politics of envy, I know it wouldn't catch on.
I think Surrey Heath will stay Tory although it could be close, if the Tories are sensible though they will pick a well known local councillor as it will certainly be a LD target seat
It being day 2 of the campaign have the Tories gone after woke EDI stuff yet? I did attend a pretty bad example the other week - the people leading it were actually pretty reasonable and open to discussion, but some of the external materials they used were pretty darn ridiculous and political (literally blaming capitalism for example), and that surely must be enough to hook an entire 6 week campaign around.
To my mind the best minister of the last 14 years by a long way. Also interesting that right across the House and outside it people are also saying he was one of the politest and most considerate to those he worked with.
So farewell Michael Gove, a minister so scrupulously polite that he had to hire Dominic Cummings to insult people on his behalf.
He can't fuck off fast enough or far enough
When the Brexiteering Tories finally depart, could you please revert to your pre-Brexit self, which I dimly remember as being occasionally interesting and not entirely and terminally embittered?
A lot of us would be grateful, also it might be good for you
Catching up, I've had a good laugh tonight. The desperate attempts to resuscitate Sunak by suggesting he's a self-made man born into the most humble of circumstances who pulled himself up by his bootstraps because his parents worked 168 hours a week and he's earned every penny of his multi-millionaire privilege and we could all do the same if we just worked as hard as him and his parents...... Don't think it's going to catch on, somehow.
I realise now that where I went wrong was not having my parents send me to a top private school, and then not marrying a billionaire. Stupid mistakes which I'll just have to own.
The BBC in particular have been relentless in their dismissal of Starmer. I suspect the point is to even the field and make a contest out of the election.
In other news Johnson has already invoked the ghost of SJS. Now then, now then.
Or it could be youve been so used to SKS getting no scrutiny its a shock when he does.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Is that George Osborne, son of Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock and Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet, co-founder of the firm of fabric and wallpaper designers Osborne & Little?
Yes. Bullied because his parents were "in trade" rather than being landowners. Madness, eh?
But even Sunak, a couple of notches further down the social scale, was still far beyond what the vast majority of us will ever experience. Or Gordon Brown, "humble son of the manse" - except that was a deeply respected position (and his father did a stint as Moderator of the CoS!), and he'd almost certainly have been the poshest boy in his school.
The Uk class system is the scourge of this country. It leads to horrible behaviour at the top and worse massive economic underperformance. Sometimes I wonder is it better to be germany in 1945 starting from scrtach again.
The UK class system remains a ridiculous who's who of old school ties, secret handshakes and pecking orders. And we all know it. We're just not supposed to say it.
We claim it has become more meritocratic in the 21st century, but there will always be a difference between, say BoJo and Cameron, vs Rishi and Osborne. And this is the narcissism of small differences - the top 0.1% vs the top 1%. With the other 99% not getting a look in.
And, as Leon points out, this is all increasingly irrelevant against the cavalcade of foreign oligarchs, who could buy the entire lot of us out and still have change left for the jukebox, and a few goes on the pool table.
But the private education system still trains us to think in those old outdated class terms, and it's probably inescapable for anyone who went through the system, at least at that point in time.
As I said on a thread the other day, there is a certain type of chap who went to Charterhouse (et al), who still thinks he's better than Elon Musk even if he's living in a bedsit above a bookies, because that was the order of things.
It's probably why the UK feels the way it does in the 21st century - a strutting peacock, with no feathers.
I'm astonished that so many people think the class system is still important in the UK. Look at Keir Starmer - from an ordinary background.
To my mind the best minister of the last 14 years by a long way. Also interesting that right across the House and outside it people are also saying he was one of the politest and most considerate to those he worked with.
So farewell Michael Gove, a minister so scrupulously polite that he had to hire Dominic Cummings to insult people on his behalf.
He can't fuck off fast enough or far enough
When the Brexiteering Tories finally depart, could you please revert to your pre-Brexit self, which I dimly remember as being occasionally interesting and not entirely and terminally embittered?
A lot of us would be grateful, also it might be good for you
Must be very tiring to be that angry for 8 years straight.
An interesting figure. I never felt Gove really reached the heights in government he could have done. I think he probably himself was aware that he did not have the public-facing persona to ever lead a party, but he should have had the chance at a great office.
I don’t deny the man is flawed, and certainly can be deeply unlikeable, but he is intelligent and interesting.
To my mind the best minister of the last 14 years by a long way. Also interesting that right across the House and outside it people are also saying he was one of the politest and most considerate to those he worked with.
I am not necessarily sorry to see him go as I don't think he was a particularly good politician - which is what you need to be if you are working in Opposition rather than Government - but I certainly think he had more decency in him than practially every other member of the Government (or the Opposition for that matter)
He always struck me as hard-working and diligent. If often wrong. But I appreciate him getting into cabinet and staying there - so he must have had something. And I also give him credit for making the leap from newspaper pundit to practising politician. There's not many who are brave enough to put their words to the test.
An interesting figure. I never felt Gove really reached the heights in government he could have done. I think he probably himself was aware that he did not have the public-facing persona to ever lead a party, but he should have had the chance at a great office.
I don’t deny the man is flawed, and certainly can be deeply unlikeable, but he is intelligent and interesting.
To my mind the best minister of the last 14 years by a long way. Also interesting that right across the House and outside it people are also saying he was one of the politest and most considerate to those he worked with.
I am not necessarily sorry to see him go as I don't think he was a particularly good politician - which is what you need to be if you are working in Opposition rather than Government - but I certainly think he had more decency in him than practially every other member of the Government (or the Opposition for that matter)
Gove's education reforms have left England doing notably well in PISA scores, compared to the other Home Nations, and many European countries
I note that the Labour party have sworn to undo them, so England can be as shit as Scotland and Wales
This is the worst election launch in British history, isn’t it?
I suspect if I’m completely honest it’s only us obsessives who are really paying any attention. At the moment I suspect most of the country are simply aware there’s an election coming and Sunak got rained on, and are probably looking forward to the bank holiday.
But yes, it’s been pretty bad.
Most people are focusing on Euro 2024!
But not so much in Wales (Rishi to note) 😈
If Rishi had mentioned the football in a factory in England then he would have been hammered for assuming everyone in the factory was English or Scottish so had a team in the tournament. How awful he is for not having the sensitivity that there are workers in factories that don’t support purely the teams who have qualified - see, he’s so out of touch. Just because your nations team isn’t in the tournament it doesn’t mean you can’t be looking forward to it. Or some such.
The coverage as a whole is symptomatic of how utterly fucking pathetic our media has become. Obsessed with comedy photo ops and 'gotcha' moments to clip for social media, and daft questions that provide nothing in terms of illumination. Woodward and Bernstein they ain't.
It was perfectly encapsulated yesterday morning on Today. The morning after the election being called on the flagship current affairs programme and the lead angle was that some Tory MPs were flabbergasted, annoyed etc. not that we were getting a general election, the general election everyone was calling for and what that meant for the country, the correspondents had been spending their time whatsappung and being briefed how annoyed MPs were.
It’s a fucking pantomime and the politics is crap because the people who are supposed to be holding their feet to the fire are too invested in the pantomime themselfves. It’s a lot easier to earn your money as a politics journalist by repeating gossip than actually analysing the crap politicians are saying because the journalists, like the politicians, have very rarely actually done anything else of note which would make themselves think, “hang on a minute, when I was working in the steel industry if a boss did this they would be fucked, etc”.
Everything about this turd of a nation is fucked. The politics, the media, the economics, the attitudes, the morality. The way the entire deck is stacked against anyone getting out of their box for a moment. And the slack jaws hose down their bread and circuses clapping like seals for any shit they are told to. We are in the last days of Rome. I like a rant. Cleansing.
Certainly when you go to countries like Spain people seem happier despite their economy not being that great either. Better social bonds between people and of course better weather is likely the difference.
An irrationally large part of my brain is imagining a news programme decal on 4 July at 10pm saying "too close to call - Conservatives 315-330 seats - majority possible".
I have a Labour friend who says lots of people focus on 1992 and 2015 but Labour memories are seared by
1987 - It was a common observation by the media that Labour had the best campaign, on election night the BBC had a poll (not an exit poll) that showed a hung parliament - The result a Tory majority of over 100.
So after 1987 and 1992 even when the 1997 exit poll showed a massive Labour landslide, he was wired up for the worst result, it was only after Portillo lost he realised Labour were about to win.
Perceptions are strange things. I was an ardent Thatcherite in 1987 and knew she was going to win easily. It was a heady moment of total optimism for the UK - and a lot of my friends were going into the City which was just beginning to surge. You could feel London rising from its decades of decline - the long boom was commencing
Probably felt a bit different if you were in a Yorkshire coal town but fuck em
Battersea and Walthamstow went Tory in 1987. The Labour majority in Tottenham was reduced to 4,000 votes.
Battersea! I remember those heady days on the PB of the late 00s when the Tory contingent were revelling in the demographic change that was going to deliver them Battersea, Hammersmith etc for ever.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Is that George Osborne, son of Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock and Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet, co-founder of the firm of fabric and wallpaper designers Osborne & Little?
Yes. Bullied because his parents were "in trade" rather than being landowners. Madness, eh?
But even Sunak, a couple of notches further down the social scale, was still far beyond what the vast majority of us will ever experience. Or Gordon Brown, "humble son of the manse" - except that was a deeply respected position (and his father did a stint as Moderator of the CoS!), and he'd almost certainly have been the poshest boy in his school.
The Uk class system is the scourge of this country. It leads to horrible behaviour at the top and worse massive economic underperformance. Sometimes I wonder is it better to be germany in 1945 starting from scrtach again.
The UK class system remains a ridiculous who's who of old school ties, secret handshakes and pecking orders. And we all know it. We're just not supposed to say it.
We claim it has become more meritocratic in the 21st century, but there will always be a difference between, say BoJo and Cameron, vs Rishi and Osborne. And this is the narcissism of small differences - the top 0.1% vs the top 1%. With the other 99% not getting a look in.
And, as Leon points out, this is all increasingly irrelevant against the cavalcade of foreign oligarchs, who could buy the entire lot of us out and still have change left for the jukebox, and a few goes on the pool table.
But the private education system still trains us to think in those old outdated class terms, and it's probably inescapable for anyone who went through the system, at least at that point in time.
As I said on a thread the other day, there is a certain type of chap who went to Charterhouse (et al), who still thinks he's better than Elon Musk even if he's living in a bedsit above a bookies, because that was the order of things.
It's probably why the UK feels the way it does in the 21st century - a strutting peacock, with no feathers.
I'm astonished that so many people think the class system is still important in the UK.
The inverse class thing is still going strong. One was brought up so working class, one understands the little folk isn't it?
To my mind the best minister of the last 14 years by a long way. Also interesting that right across the House and outside it people are also saying he was one of the politest and most considerate to those he worked with.
So farewell Michael Gove, a minister so scrupulously polite that he had to hire Dominic Cummings to insult people on his behalf.
He can't fuck off fast enough or far enough
When the Brexiteering Tories finally depart, could you please revert to your pre-Brexit self, which I dimly remember as being occasionally interesting and not entirely and terminally embittered?
A lot of us would be grateful, also it might be good for you
Must be very tiring to be that angry for 8 years straight.
One thing the modern generation is better at is maintaining intense online opinions constantly. Which is impressive when attention span is apparently down.
Scott is a master of persistance, I'll give him that.
Catching up, I've had a good laugh tonight. The desperate attempts to resuscitate Sunak by suggesting he's a self-made man born into the most humble of circumstances who pulled himself up by his bootstraps because his parents worked 168 hours a week and he's earned every penny of his multi-millionaire privilege and we could all do the same if we just worked as hard as him and his parents...... Don't think it's going to catch on, somehow.
I realise now that where I went wrong was not having my parents send me to a top private school, and then not marrying a billionaire. Stupid mistakes which I'll just have to own.
Have you ever tried to marry a billionaire? I’ll tell you it’s fucking hard, harder than becoming an MP to get to become PM. Firstly there aren’t lots hanging around dodgy clubs where you can pull them on a night out. Second, they’ve got a lot of suitors by virtue of being a billionaire and even if you are as ridiculously good looking as I am you’ve got to decide whether you could wake up to that face every day to survive the pre-nup time bars when you could be waking up to pretty people because there are a lot of ugly billionaires out there - take Jocelyn Wildenstein, she’s like the hottest female billionaire who’s single. It’s a tough gig Ben. Don’t knock the effort.
An interesting figure. I never felt Gove really reached the heights in government he could have done. I think he probably himself was aware that he did not have the public-facing persona to ever lead a party, but he should have had the chance at a great office.
I don’t deny the man is flawed, and certainly can be deeply unlikeable, but he is intelligent and interesting.
To my mind the best minister of the last 14 years by a long way. Also interesting that right across the House and outside it people are also saying he was one of the politest and most considerate to those he worked with.
I am not necessarily sorry to see him go as I don't think he was a particularly good politician - which is what you need to be if you are working in Opposition rather than Government - but I certainly think he had more decency in him than practially every other member of the Government (or the Opposition for that matter)
I agree (perhaps not the best, but one of the better ones). British politics has a history of “slimy” or smarmy characters actually being pretty effective operators. Peter Mandelson is another. Kenneth Baker too. Well OK, that’s just 3 examples so not statistically significant but enough for a comment.
That's a completely non-exhaustive list, and not intended to be a ranking. But it's 25 without needing to think about it.
Whether you agree or disagree about Brexit, Gove made Brexit happen, that makes him profound.
We will be living with that legacy for decades.
He certainly didn't make Brexit happen more than Farage, Johnson, or indeed Cameron.
He supported it, but I very much doubt it was decisive, and he certainly wasn't the prime mover in that, let alone in the past seven decades. That's bonkers.
Part of the problem with all this is that by surprising his own Party, Sunak not only left 100 constituencies unselected, but we also now have the incredible optics of rats appearing to flee the sinking hip.
It’s either staggering levels of ineptitude or deliberate sabotage. Either way, this is going to sink them lower, at least for a time.
I think Labour have 100 to fill too so plenty of chances for Jared OMaras all round especially with the uncertainty of formally safe seats and paper candidates
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Is that George Osborne, son of Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock and Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet, co-founder of the firm of fabric and wallpaper designers Osborne & Little?
Yes. Bullied because his parents were "in trade" rather than being landowners. Madness, eh?
But even Sunak, a couple of notches further down the social scale, was still far beyond what the vast majority of us will ever experience. Or Gordon Brown, "humble son of the manse" - except that was a deeply respected position (and his father did a stint as Moderator of the CoS!), and he'd almost certainly have been the poshest boy in his school.
The Uk class system is the scourge of this country. It leads to horrible behaviour at the top and worse massive economic underperformance. Sometimes I wonder is it better to be germany in 1945 starting from scrtach again.
Very much agreed, except that it's (largely) the English class system that fucks us so badly. Sure, there are some class gradations elsewhere, but they're much more primary-coloured - where you live, what you do for a living, maybe a little about where you went to school. Nothing like as much of a weight around people's necks as the English have.
We would all be better off if we had a better understanding of how and why Germany managed to overtake us within 25 years of being completely flattened, though.
Some on the right fantasise about doing a zero-based spending review - I have some sympathy for that view, though I suspect that many who call for it wouldn't like the result! Perhaps, without going that far, we might think about some of the long-held assumptions that have been baked into our society. How many would we keep if we were forced to start again from scratch?
Bollocks. The class system doesn't end at Gretna Green. Lord Hopetoun is as Lordy as Lord Salisbury. The suggestion that it does is bizarre.
An interesting figure. I never felt Gove really reached the heights in government he could have done. I think he probably himself was aware that he did not have the public-facing persona to ever lead a party, but he should have had the chance at a great office.
I don’t deny the man is flawed, and certainly can be deeply unlikeable, but he is intelligent and interesting.
To my mind the best minister of the last 14 years by a long way. Also interesting that right across the House and outside it people are also saying he was one of the politest and most considerate to those he worked with.
I am not necessarily sorry to see him go as I don't think he was a particularly good politician - which is what you need to be if you are working in Opposition rather than Government - but I certainly think he had more decency in him than practially every other member of the Government (or the Opposition for that matter)
He always struck me as hard-working and diligent. If often wrong. But I appreciate him getting into cabinet and staying there - so he must have had something. And I also give him credit for making the leap from newspaper pundit to practising politician. There's not many who are brave enough to put their words to the test.
Gove is at least, as Richard Tyndall noted, interesting, which is more than most Ministers have ever been. That comes with negatives and positives, we've heard before praise for him even from Labour figures on some issues, but he has had impacts at least.
I think Surrey Heath will stay Tory although it could be close, if the Tories are sensible though they will pick a well known local councillor as it will certainly be a LD target seat
The LibDems seem to be up for the fight, according to last night’s Evening Standard, as well as Godalming & Ash. I think Guildford will turn yellow.
An interesting figure. I never felt Gove really reached the heights in government he could have done. I think he probably himself was aware that he did not have the public-facing persona to ever lead a party, but he should have had the chance at a great office.
I don’t deny the man is flawed, and certainly can be deeply unlikeable, but he is intelligent and interesting.
To my mind the best minister of the last 14 years by a long way. Also interesting that right across the House and outside it people are also saying he was one of the politest and most considerate to those he worked with.
I am not necessarily sorry to see him go as I don't think he was a particularly good politician - which is what you need to be if you are working in Opposition rather than Government - but I certainly think he had more decency in him than practially every other member of the Government (or the Opposition for that matter)
He always struck me as hard-working and diligent. If often wrong. But I appreciate him getting into cabinet and staying there - so he must have had something. And I also give him credit for making the leap from newspaper pundit to practising politician. There's not many who are brave enough to put their words to the test.
Two things that stick in my mind.
As Justice Minister believing that prison is about reform and improvement as much (if not more) than punishment. Exemplified by his reversing the decision of his predecessor to ban books in prisons.
As DEFRA Minister reaching out to the Green Lobby and the science community to understand insect collapse and soil depletion and then actually trying to find ways to do something about it whilst bringing the farmers along. I know that Nick Palmer of this parish had good words to say about him even though he was on the other side of the political divide.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Is that George Osborne, son of Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock and Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet, co-founder of the firm of fabric and wallpaper designers Osborne & Little?
Yes. Bullied because his parents were "in trade" rather than being landowners. Madness, eh?
But even Sunak, a couple of notches further down the social scale, was still far beyond what the vast majority of us will ever experience. Or Gordon Brown, "humble son of the manse" - except that was a deeply respected position (and his father did a stint as Moderator of the CoS!), and he'd almost certainly have been the poshest boy in his school.
The Uk class system is the scourge of this country. It leads to horrible behaviour at the top and worse massive economic underperformance. Sometimes I wonder is it better to be germany in 1945 starting from scrtach again.
The UK class system remains a ridiculous who's who of old school ties, secret handshakes and pecking orders. And we all know it. We're just not supposed to say it.
We claim it has become more meritocratic in the 21st century, but there will always be a difference between, say BoJo and Cameron, vs Rishi and Osborne. And this is the narcissism of small differences - the top 0.1% vs the top 1%. With the other 99% not getting a look in.
And, as Leon points out, this is all increasingly irrelevant against the cavalcade of foreign oligarchs, who could buy the entire lot of us out and still have change left for the jukebox, and a few goes on the pool table.
But the private education system still trains us to think in those old outdated class terms, and it's probably inescapable for anyone who went through the system, at least at that point in time.
As I said on a thread the other day, there is a certain type of chap who went to Charterhouse (et al), who still thinks he's better than Elon Musk even if he's living in a bedsit above a bookies, because that was the order of things.
It's probably why the UK feels the way it does in the 21st century - a strutting peacock, with no feathers.
I'm astonished that so many people think the class system is still important in the UK.
The inverse class thing is still going strong. One was brought up so working class, one understands the little folk isn't it?
I'd say class is evolving. Its not so much about lineage and more about how much money you have. Having the bling, gadgets and university is more the trick. The most tiresome part is people claiming theyre better because they have a degree.
Well at least Gove was on the right side of the Brexit divide, unlike that chancer Cameron.
Except he wasn't. That was the oddest thing. Gove for years had been Eurosceptic because he blamed the EU for destroying his parents' fishing business. Then his father popped up and said it wasn't the EU, and he'd just retired. Gove's political philosophy (or at least that part of it) was founded on a misapprehension.
She was apparantly the one asking the 1922 if she could send in her No Confidence letter. She lost all credibility after her 'she's not a mum' garbage against May
Catching up, I've had a good laugh tonight. The desperate attempts to resuscitate Sunak by suggesting he's a self-made man born into the most humble of circumstances who pulled himself up by his bootstraps because his parents worked 168 hours a week and he's earned every penny of his multi-millionaire privilege and we could all do the same if we just worked as hard as him and his parents...... Don't think it's going to catch on, somehow.
I realise now that where I went wrong was not having my parents send me to a top private school, and then not marrying a billionaire. Stupid mistakes which I'll just have to own.
Have you ever tried to marry a billionaire? I’ll tell you it’s fucking hard, harder than becoming an MP to get to become PM. Firstly there aren’t lots hanging around dodgy clubs where you can pull them on a night out. Second, they’ve got a lot of suitors by virtue of being a billionaire and even if you are as ridiculously good looking as I am you’ve got to decide whether you could wake up to that face every day to survive the pre-nup time bars when you could be waking up to pretty people because there are a lot of ugly billionaires out there - take Jocelyn Wildenstein, she’s like the hottest female billionaire who’s single. It’s a tough gig Ben. Don’t knock the effort.
There's a great play to be written about the courtship of Rishi and Akshata. How do even do that stuff on Coke Zero?
The most bizarre moment in recent British politics - the infamous march on Downing Street, orchestrated by Andrea Leadsom supporters, lead by Tim Loughton.
@benrileysmith Now **eleven** Tory MPs have said they’re standing down in the 2 days since Sunak called the election
Andrea Leadsom (just now) Michael Gove Greg Clark Craig Mackinlay John Redwood David Evennett Eleanor Laing Jo Churchill Huw Merriman James Grundy Michael Ellis
This is the worst election launch in British history, isn’t it?
I suspect if I’m completely honest it’s only us obsessives who are really paying any attention. At the moment I suspect most of the country are simply aware there’s an election coming and Sunak got rained on, and are probably looking forward to the bank holiday.
But yes, it’s been pretty bad.
Most people are focusing on Euro 2024!
But not so much in Wales (Rishi to note) 😈
If Rishi had mentioned the football in a factory in England then he would have been hammered for assuming everyone in the factory was English or Scottish so had a team in the tournament. How awful he is for not having the sensitivity that there are workers in factories that don’t support purely the teams who have qualified - see, he’s so out of touch. Just because your nations team isn’t in the tournament it doesn’t mean you can’t be looking forward to it. Or some such.
The coverage as a whole is symptomatic of how utterly fucking pathetic our media has become. Obsessed with comedy photo ops and 'gotcha' moments to clip for social media, and daft questions that provide nothing in terms of illumination. Woodward and Bernstein they ain't.
It was perfectly encapsulated yesterday morning on Today. The morning after the election being called on the flagship current affairs programme and the lead angle was that some Tory MPs were flabbergasted, annoyed etc. not that we were getting a general election, the general election everyone was calling for and what that meant for the country, the correspondents had been spending their time whatsappung and being briefed how annoyed MPs were.
It’s a fucking pantomime and the politics is crap because the people who are supposed to be holding their feet to the fire are too invested in the pantomime themselfves. It’s a lot easier to earn your money as a politics journalist by repeating gossip than actually analysing the crap politicians are saying because the journalists, like the politicians, have very rarely actually done anything else of note which would make themselves think, “hang on a minute, when I was working in the steel industry if a boss did this they would be fucked, etc”.
Everything about this turd of a nation is fucked. The politics, the media, the economics, the attitudes, the morality. The way the entire deck is stacked against anyone getting out of their box for a moment. And the slack jaws hose down their bread and circuses clapping like seals for any shit they are told to. We are in the last days of Rome. I like a rant. Cleansing.
Certainly when you go to countries like Spain people seem happier despite their economy not being that great either. Better social bonds between people and of course better weather is likely the difference.
Not being miserable grumblers might go against our national character, but we may have been overdoing it lately.
This is the worst election launch in British history, isn’t it?
I suspect if I’m completely honest it’s only us obsessives who are really paying any attention. At the moment I suspect most of the country are simply aware there’s an election coming and Sunak got rained on, and are probably looking forward to the bank holiday.
But yes, it’s been pretty bad.
Most people are focusing on Euro 2024!
But not so much in Wales (Rishi to note) 😈
If Rishi had mentioned the football in a factory in England then he would have been hammered for assuming everyone in the factory was English or Scottish so had a team in the tournament. How awful he is for not having the sensitivity that there are workers in factories that don’t support purely the teams who have qualified - see, he’s so out of touch. Just because your nations team isn’t in the tournament it doesn’t mean you can’t be looking forward to it. Or some such.
The coverage as a whole is symptomatic of how utterly fucking pathetic our media has become. Obsessed with comedy photo ops and 'gotcha' moments to clip for social media, and daft questions that provide nothing in terms of illumination. Woodward and Bernstein they ain't.
It was perfectly encapsulated yesterday morning on Today. The morning after the election being called on the flagship current affairs programme and the lead angle was that some Tory MPs were flabbergasted, annoyed etc. not that we were getting a general election, the general election everyone was calling for and what that meant for the country, the correspondents had been spending their time whatsappung and being briefed how annoyed MPs were.
It’s a fucking pantomime and the politics is crap because the people who are supposed to be holding their feet to the fire are too invested in the pantomime themselfves. It’s a lot easier to earn your money as a politics journalist by repeating gossip than actually analysing the crap politicians are saying because the journalists, like the politicians, have very rarely actually done anything else of note which would make themselves think, “hang on a minute, when I was working in the steel industry if a boss did this they would be fucked, etc”.
Everything about this turd of a nation is fucked. The politics, the media, the economics, the attitudes, the morality. The way the entire deck is stacked against anyone getting out of their box for a moment. And the slack jaws hose down their bread and circuses clapping like seals for any shit they are told to. We are in the last days of Rome. I like a rant. Cleansing.
If it's so awful here, why is this country one of the top destinations for people from all over the world?
I think Surrey Heath will stay Tory although it could be close, if the Tories are sensible though they will pick a well known local councillor as it will certainly be a LD target seat
The LibDems seem to be up for the fight, according to last night’s Evening Standard, as well as Godalming & Ash. I think Guildford will turn yellow.
Sorry, I know I’m around a bit on here at the moment but I’m still only an occasional visitor.
Posting in the last couple of days. You can find by going into my profile as I haven't made that many posts so easy to find. I found your posts in the past re Woking, in particular Hook Heath, interesting. I know the area well. I know Woking, Guildford, Surrey Heath and Mole Valley (now Dorking and Horley) well and the 2 constituencies created from South West Surrey fairly well from a LD perspective.
Catching up, I've had a good laugh tonight. The desperate attempts to resuscitate Sunak by suggesting he's a self-made man born into the most humble of circumstances who pulled himself up by his bootstraps because his parents worked 168 hours a week and he's earned every penny of his multi-millionaire privilege and we could all do the same if we just worked as hard as him and his parents...... Don't think it's going to catch on, somehow.
He is a second generation Asian immigrant, and his not-highborn parents - from East Africa - worked all hours to send him to a great school, and he made the most of that by going into banking, and he did all this with a brown skin, obviously Indian, and being five foot six
And he worked as a waiter in a curry house as a lad, did David Cameron do that? Did Sir Kir Royale Starmer do that? Boris?
I despise this rhetoric, and I am on the right and highly critical of mass immigration, but if we must have immigration (and we do need some, of course) then Sunak is absolutely exemplary, the best kind of immigration: His parents came with almost nothing, worked extrenely hard, and honestly, and their son has also worked extremely hard and done well. And, yes, he married well - good for him! And he has nice kids and seems like a nice guy
What are we meant to do? Spit on him for being an Indian that worked hard? Fuck this shit. It is ugly and nasty
Catching up, I've had a good laugh tonight. The desperate attempts to resuscitate Sunak by suggesting he's a self-made man born into the most humble of circumstances who pulled himself up by his bootstraps because his parents worked 168 hours a week and he's earned every penny of his multi-millionaire privilege and we could all do the same if we just worked as hard as him and his parents...... Don't think it's going to catch on, somehow.
I realise now that where I went wrong was not having my parents send me to a top private school, and then not marrying a billionaire. Stupid mistakes which I'll just have to own.
Have you ever tried to marry a billionaire? I’ll tell you it’s fucking hard, harder than becoming an MP to get to become PM. Firstly there aren’t lots hanging around dodgy clubs where you can pull them on a night out. Second, they’ve got a lot of suitors by virtue of being a billionaire and even if you are as ridiculously good looking as I am you’ve got to decide whether you could wake up to that face every day to survive the pre-nup time bars when you could be waking up to pretty people because there are a lot of ugly billionaires out there - take Jocelyn Wildenstein, she’s like the hottest female billionaire who’s single. It’s a tough gig Ben. Don’t knock the effort.
There's a great play to be written about the courtship of Rishi and Akshata. How do even do that stuff on Coke Zero?
Well at least Gove was on the right side of the Brexit divide, unlike that chancer Cameron.
Except he wasn't. That was the oddest thing. Gove for years had been Eurosceptic because he blamed the EU for destroying his parents' fishing business. Then his father popped up and said it wasn't the EU, and he'd just retired. Gove's political philosophy (or at least that part of it) was founded on a misapprehension.
He was still on the right side of the argument even if for mistaken reasons.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Is that George Osborne, son of Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock and Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet, co-founder of the firm of fabric and wallpaper designers Osborne & Little?
Yes. Bullied because his parents were "in trade" rather than being landowners. Madness, eh?
But even Sunak, a couple of notches further down the social scale, was still far beyond what the vast majority of us will ever experience. Or Gordon Brown, "humble son of the manse" - except that was a deeply respected position (and his father did a stint as Moderator of the CoS!), and he'd almost certainly have been the poshest boy in his school.
The Uk class system is the scourge of this country. It leads to horrible behaviour at the top and worse massive economic underperformance. Sometimes I wonder is it better to be germany in 1945 starting from scrtach again.
The UK class system remains a ridiculous who's who of old school ties, secret handshakes and pecking orders. And we all know it. We're just not supposed to say it.
We claim it has become more meritocratic in the 21st century, but there will always be a difference between, say BoJo and Cameron, vs Rishi and Osborne. And this is the narcissism of small differences - the top 0.1% vs the top 1%. With the other 99% not getting a look in.
And, as Leon points out, this is all increasingly irrelevant against the cavalcade of foreign oligarchs, who could buy the entire lot of us out and still have change left for the jukebox, and a few goes on the pool table.
But the private education system still trains us to think in those old outdated class terms, and it's probably inescapable for anyone who went through the system, at least at that point in time.
As I said on a thread the other day, there is a certain type of chap who went to Charterhouse (et al), who still thinks he's better than Elon Musk even if he's living in a bedsit above a bookies, because that was the order of things.
It's probably why the UK feels the way it does in the 21st century - a strutting peacock, with no feathers.
I'm astonished that so many people think the class system is still important in the UK.
The inverse class thing is still going strong. One was brought up so working class, one understands the little folk isn't it?
I'd say class is evolving. Its not so much about lineage and more about how much money you have. Having the bling, gadgets and university is more the trick. The most tiresome part is people claiming theyre better because they have a degree.
Agreed, degrees are two a penny. I got pissed for 3 years and they gave me one. But as Jarvis sang 'everybody hates a tourist, especially one who thinks its all such a laugh' If you've known the misery, you don't wear it like a badge
Ambassador Wu Jianghao: "Once the country of Japan is tied to the tanks plotting to split China, the Japanese people will be brought into the fire" Government’s top spokesman, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshimasa Hayashi: “extremely inappropriate remarks” “severe protest”
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
To be a true Portillo moment, doesn't the loser need to be a genuine post-election leadership contender? It's not that Hunt or Rees-Mogg losing wouldn't be entertaining, but Portillo's loss was huge as he'd have been favourite for the leadership.
And that he had behaved so obnoxiously that he was almost hated, back then.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Is that George Osborne, son of Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock and Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet, co-founder of the firm of fabric and wallpaper designers Osborne & Little?
Yes. Bullied because his parents were "in trade" rather than being landowners. Madness, eh?
But even Sunak, a couple of notches further down the social scale, was still far beyond what the vast majority of us will ever experience. Or Gordon Brown, "humble son of the manse" - except that was a deeply respected position (and his father did a stint as Moderator of the CoS!), and he'd almost certainly have been the poshest boy in his school.
The Uk class system is the scourge of this country. It leads to horrible behaviour at the top and worse massive economic underperformance. Sometimes I wonder is it better to be germany in 1945 starting from scrtach again.
The UK class system remains a ridiculous who's who of old school ties, secret handshakes and pecking orders. And we all know it. We're just not supposed to say it.
We claim it has become more meritocratic in the 21st century, but there will always be a difference between, say BoJo and Cameron, vs Rishi and Osborne. And this is the narcissism of small differences - the top 0.1% vs the top 1%. With the other 99% not getting a look in.
And, as Leon points out, this is all increasingly irrelevant against the cavalcade of foreign oligarchs, who could buy the entire lot of us out and still have change left for the jukebox, and a few goes on the pool table.
But the private education system still trains us to think in those old outdated class terms, and it's probably inescapable for anyone who went through the system, at least at that point in time.
As I said on a thread the other day, there is a certain type of chap who went to Charterhouse (et al), who still thinks he's better than Elon Musk even if he's living in a bedsit above a bookies, because that was the order of things.
It's probably why the UK feels the way it does in the 21st century - a strutting peacock, with no feathers.
I'm astonished that so many people think the class system is still important in the UK. Look at Keir Starmer - from an ordinary background.
What's the percentage of our PMs who went to public school? What's the percentage who went to Eton? How does that percentage compare to society at large?
Only 34% of barristers went to state school.
60% of charting musicians in 2010 went to private schools. Don't quote me on the number of actors. etc.
The disproportionate sway the 7% that were privately educated have over British public life is enormous, and we'd be fools to dismiss it, against all the statistical evidence. And I say this as one of the 7%.
Is it a Masonic Brotherhood, with a secret handshake where *only* those who know the secret code can get on in life? Of course not. Is it a club to which membership grants enormous perks, from networking with the right sort at an early age, to knowing how to behave at dinner? Of course.
The UK is as divided by class as it's always been.
@benrileysmith Now **eleven** Tory MPs have said they’re standing down in the 2 days since Sunak called the election
Andrea Leadsom (just now) Michael Gove Greg Clark Craig Mackinlay John Redwood David Evennett Eleanor Laing Jo Churchill Huw Merriman James Grundy Michael Ellis
How many more??
Like a reverse version of "One Hundred Bottles of Beer on the Wall".
She was apparantly the one asking the 1922 if she could send in her No Confidence letter. She lost all credibility after her 'she's not a mum' garbage against May
She should've been cast into the outer darkness over that. She denies it now, and says it was all a bit of a misunderstanding, but it was wholly deliberate and incredibly nasty.
An interesting figure. I never felt Gove really reached the heights in government he could have done. I think he probably himself was aware that he did not have the public-facing persona to ever lead a party, but he should have had the chance at a great office.
I don’t deny the man is flawed, and certainly can be deeply unlikeable, but he is intelligent and interesting.
To my mind the best minister of the last 14 years by a long way. Also interesting that right across the House and outside it people are also saying he was one of the politest and most considerate to those he worked with.
I am not necessarily sorry to see him go as I don't think he was a particularly good politician - which is what you need to be if you are working in Opposition rather than Government - but I certainly think he had more decency in him than practially every other member of the Government (or the Opposition for that matter)
How much of what he has done has actually stuck, though?
His education reforms have been gradually dismantled, his liberalisation of the prison system has been overtaken by the failure to provide enough capacity. He was likely well-suited to being Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, but in reality achieved little during the pre-Brexit limbo, and was then swamped by Covid.
So, what are we left with? He was a fairly good Environment Secretary for two years? He almost-but-not-quite got some useful stuff done at Levelling Up?
That's his problem, really - lots of potentially good ideas, not much actual delivery, and next to no ongoing support to ensure that his work took effect over the longer term.
A lot of that isn't entirely his fault, he was stymied by the dysfunctional government machine. But a truly significant figure should have done better.
Catching up, I've had a good laugh tonight. The desperate attempts to resuscitate Sunak by suggesting he's a self-made man born into the most humble of circumstances who pulled himself up by his bootstraps because his parents worked 168 hours a week and he's earned every penny of his multi-millionaire privilege and we could all do the same if we just worked as hard as him and his parents...... Don't think it's going to catch on, somehow.
I realise now that where I went wrong was not having my parents send me to a top private school, and then not marrying a billionaire. Stupid mistakes which I'll just have to own.
Have you ever tried to marry a billionaire? I’ll tell you it’s fucking hard, harder than becoming an MP to get to become PM. Firstly there aren’t lots hanging around dodgy clubs where you can pull them on a night out. Second, they’ve got a lot of suitors by virtue of being a billionaire and even if you are as ridiculously good looking as I am you’ve got to decide whether you could wake up to that face every day to survive the pre-nup time bars when you could be waking up to pretty people because there are a lot of ugly billionaires out there - take Jocelyn Wildenstein, she’s like the hottest female billionaire who’s single. It’s a tough gig Ben. Don’t knock the effort.
There's a great play to be written about the courtship of Rishi and Akshata. How do even do that stuff on Coke Zero?
She was apparantly the one asking the 1922 if she could send in her No Confidence letter. She lost all credibility after her 'she's not a mum' garbage against May
It was a very stupid thing to say.
Yet she would have been a better PM than May in almost every possible way.
@benrileysmith Now **eleven** Tory MPs have said they’re standing down in the 2 days since Sunak called the election
Andrea Leadsom (just now) Michael Gove Greg Clark Craig Mackinlay John Redwood David Evennett Eleanor Laing Jo Churchill Huw Merriman James Grundy Michael Ellis
How many more??
Probably quite a few. Sure, the likely result is helping, but a lot may have been standing down anyway.
In 2019 the average length of service of those standing down was 18.5 years.
The average for those you list there is around 17.5 years
For many of those jumping now it really is just their time.
She was apparantly the one asking the 1922 if she could send in her No Confidence letter. She lost all credibility after her 'she's not a mum' garbage against May
She should've been cast into the outer darkness over that. She denies it now, and says it was all a bit of a misunderstanding, but it was wholly deliberate and incredibly nasty.
This is the worst election launch in British history, isn’t it?
I suspect if I’m completely honest it’s only us obsessives who are really paying any attention. At the moment I suspect most of the country are simply aware there’s an election coming and Sunak got rained on, and are probably looking forward to the bank holiday.
But yes, it’s been pretty bad.
Most people are focusing on Euro 2024!
But not so much in Wales (Rishi to note) 😈
If Rishi had mentioned the football in a factory in England then he would have been hammered for assuming everyone in the factory was English or Scottish so had a team in the tournament. How awful he is for not having the sensitivity that there are workers in factories that don’t support purely the teams who have qualified - see, he’s so out of touch. Just because your nations team isn’t in the tournament it doesn’t mean you can’t be looking forward to it. Or some such.
The coverage as a whole is symptomatic of how utterly fucking pathetic our media has become. Obsessed with comedy photo ops and 'gotcha' moments to clip for social media, and daft questions that provide nothing in terms of illumination. Woodward and Bernstein they ain't.
It was perfectly encapsulated yesterday morning on Today. The morning after the election being called on the flagship current affairs programme and the lead angle was that some Tory MPs were flabbergasted, annoyed etc. not that we were getting a general election, the general election everyone was calling for and what that meant for the country, the correspondents had been spending their time whatsappung and being briefed how annoyed MPs were.
It’s a fucking pantomime and the politics is crap because the people who are supposed to be holding their feet to the fire are too invested in the pantomime themselfves. It’s a lot easier to earn your money as a politics journalist by repeating gossip than actually analysing the crap politicians are saying because the journalists, like the politicians, have very rarely actually done anything else of note which would make themselves think, “hang on a minute, when I was working in the steel industry if a boss did this they would be fucked, etc”.
Everything about this turd of a nation is fucked. The politics, the media, the economics, the attitudes, the morality. The way the entire deck is stacked against anyone getting out of their box for a moment. And the slack jaws hose down their bread and circuses clapping like seals for any shit they are told to. We are in the last days of Rome. I like a rant. Cleansing.
Certainly when you go to countries like Spain people seem happier despite their economy not being that great either. Better social bonds between people and of course better weather is likely the difference.
Not being miserable grumblers might go against our national character, but we may have been overdoing it lately.
By any historical yardstick, anyone with good health, in the modern UK, has won first prize in the lottery of life.
But, you would not believe it from all the whining.
This is the worst election launch in British history, isn’t it?
I suspect if I’m completely honest it’s only us obsessives who are really paying any attention. At the moment I suspect most of the country are simply aware there’s an election coming and Sunak got rained on, and are probably looking forward to the bank holiday.
But yes, it’s been pretty bad.
Most people are focusing on Euro 2024!
But not so much in Wales (Rishi to note) 😈
If Rishi had mentioned the football in a factory in England then he would have been hammered for assuming everyone in the factory was English or Scottish so had a team in the tournament. How awful he is for not having the sensitivity that there are workers in factories that don’t support purely the teams who have qualified - see, he’s so out of touch. Just because your nations team isn’t in the tournament it doesn’t mean you can’t be looking forward to it. Or some such.
The coverage as a whole is symptomatic of how utterly fucking pathetic our media has become. Obsessed with comedy photo ops and 'gotcha' moments to clip for social media, and daft questions that provide nothing in terms of illumination. Woodward and Bernstein they ain't.
It was perfectly encapsulated yesterday morning on Today. The morning after the election being called on the flagship current affairs programme and the lead angle was that some Tory MPs were flabbergasted, annoyed etc. not that we were getting a general election, the general election everyone was calling for and what that meant for the country, the correspondents had been spending their time whatsappung and being briefed how annoyed MPs were.
It’s a fucking pantomime and the politics is crap because the people who are supposed to be holding their feet to the fire are too invested in the pantomime themselfves. It’s a lot easier to earn your money as a politics journalist by repeating gossip than actually analysing the crap politicians are saying because the journalists, like the politicians, have very rarely actually done anything else of note which would make themselves think, “hang on a minute, when I was working in the steel industry if a boss did this they would be fucked, etc”.
Everything about this turd of a nation is fucked. The politics, the media, the economics, the attitudes, the morality. The way the entire deck is stacked against anyone getting out of their box for a moment. And the slack jaws hose down their bread and circuses clapping like seals for any shit they are told to. We are in the last days of Rome. I like a rant. Cleansing.
If it's so awful here, why is this country one of the top destinations for people from all over the world?
Catching up, I've had a good laugh tonight. The desperate attempts to resuscitate Sunak by suggesting he's a self-made man born into the most humble of circumstances who pulled himself up by his bootstraps because his parents worked 168 hours a week and he's earned every penny of his multi-millionaire privilege and we could all do the same if we just worked as hard as him and his parents...... Don't think it's going to catch on, somehow.
I realise now that where I went wrong was not having my parents send me to a top private school, and then not marrying a billionaire. Stupid mistakes which I'll just have to own.
Have you ever tried to marry a billionaire? I’ll tell you it’s fucking hard, harder than becoming an MP to get to become PM. Firstly there aren’t lots hanging around dodgy clubs where you can pull them on a night out. Second, they’ve got a lot of suitors by virtue of being a billionaire and even if you are as ridiculously good looking as I am you’ve got to decide whether you could wake up to that face every day to survive the pre-nup time bars when you could be waking up to pretty people because there are a lot of ugly billionaires out there - take Jocelyn Wildenstein, she’s like the hottest female billionaire who’s single. It’s a tough gig Ben. Don’t knock the effort.
There's a great play to be written about the courtship of Rishi and Akshata. How do even do that stuff on Coke Zero?
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Is that George Osborne, son of Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock and Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet, co-founder of the firm of fabric and wallpaper designers Osborne & Little?
Yes. Bullied because his parents were "in trade" rather than being landowners. Madness, eh?
But even Sunak, a couple of notches further down the social scale, was still far beyond what the vast majority of us will ever experience. Or Gordon Brown, "humble son of the manse" - except that was a deeply respected position (and his father did a stint as Moderator of the CoS!), and he'd almost certainly have been the poshest boy in his school.
The Uk class system is the scourge of this country. It leads to horrible behaviour at the top and worse massive economic underperformance. Sometimes I wonder is it better to be germany in 1945 starting from scrtach again.
The UK class system remains a ridiculous who's who of old school ties, secret handshakes and pecking orders. And we all know it. We're just not supposed to say it.
We claim it has become more meritocratic in the 21st century, but there will always be a difference between, say BoJo and Cameron, vs Rishi and Osborne. And this is the narcissism of small differences - the top 0.1% vs the top 1%. With the other 99% not getting a look in.
And, as Leon points out, this is all increasingly irrelevant against the cavalcade of foreign oligarchs, who could buy the entire lot of us out and still have change left for the jukebox, and a few goes on the pool table.
But the private education system still trains us to think in those old outdated class terms, and it's probably inescapable for anyone who went through the system, at least at that point in time.
As I said on a thread the other day, there is a certain type of chap who went to Charterhouse (et al), who still thinks he's better than Elon Musk even if he's living in a bedsit above a bookies, because that was the order of things.
It's probably why the UK feels the way it does in the 21st century - a strutting peacock, with no feathers.
I'm astonished that so many people think the class system is still important in the UK. Look at Keir Starmer - from an ordinary background.
What's the percentage of our PMs who went to public school? What's the percentage who went to Eton? How does that percentage compare to society at large?
Only 34% of barristers went to state school.
60% of charting musicians in 2010 went to private schools. Don't quote me on the number of actors. etc.
The disproportionate sway the 7% that were privately educated have over British public life is enormous, and we'd be fools to dismiss it, against all the statistical evidence. And I say this as one of the 7%.
Is it a Masonic Brotherhood, with a secret handshake where *only* those who know the secret code can get on in life? Of course not. Is it a club to which membership grants enormous perks, from networking with the right sort at an early age, to knowing how to behave at dinner? Of course.
The UK is as divided by class as it's always been.
Bit more complicated than that. I am just listening to early Genesis and I am not thinking it's good because it's by some Charterhouse boys but because it's actually good.
Well at least Gove was on the right side of the Brexit divide, unlike that chancer Cameron.
Except he wasn't. That was the oddest thing. Gove for years had been Eurosceptic because he blamed the EU for destroying his parents' fishing business. Then his father popped up and said it wasn't the EU, and he'd just retired. Gove's political philosophy (or at least that part of it) was founded on a misapprehension.
He was still on the right side of the argument even if for mistaken reasons.
IMV subsequent events have shown that Brexit was the wrong side of the argument. A divisive, pointless argument which has damaged the country.
I have a vague impression, perhaps wrong, that you will disagree with me on this...
@Peston Senior Tories expect a significant number of further MP resignations over the weekend, in the wake of Gove’s and Leadsom’s decisions not to fight the election. Quite a number who have been re-approved as candidates have been in two minds, and thought they had till the autumn to decide. The party has more than 150 seats and rising with no candidate. That is a lot of candidates for CCHQ to find before 7 June and a lot of wasted campaigning days. It does rather indicate Sunak called the election before his party was ready
Catching up, I've had a good laugh tonight. The desperate attempts to resuscitate Sunak by suggesting he's a self-made man born into the most humble of circumstances who pulled himself up by his bootstraps because his parents worked 168 hours a week and he's earned every penny of his multi-millionaire privilege and we could all do the same if we just worked as hard as him and his parents...... Don't think it's going to catch on, somehow.
I realise now that where I went wrong was not having my parents send me to a top private school, and then not marrying a billionaire. Stupid mistakes which I'll just have to own.
Have you ever tried to marry a billionaire? I’ll tell you it’s fucking hard, harder than becoming an MP to get to become PM. Firstly there aren’t lots hanging around dodgy clubs where you can pull them on a night out. Second, they’ve got a lot of suitors by virtue of being a billionaire and even if you are as ridiculously good looking as I am you’ve got to decide whether you could wake up to that face every day to survive the pre-nup time bars when you could be waking up to pretty people because there are a lot of ugly billionaires out there - take Jocelyn Wildenstein, she’s like the hottest female billionaire who’s single. It’s a tough gig Ben. Don’t knock the effort.
There's a great play to be written about the courtship of Rishi and Akshata. How do even do that stuff on Coke Zero?
They found each other at Stanford afaiaa. Home of the Cardinals, Kamala and Coke Zero
This is the worst election launch in British history, isn’t it?
I suspect if I’m completely honest it’s only us obsessives who are really paying any attention. At the moment I suspect most of the country are simply aware there’s an election coming and Sunak got rained on, and are probably looking forward to the bank holiday.
But yes, it’s been pretty bad.
Most people are focusing on Euro 2024!
But not so much in Wales (Rishi to note) 😈
If Rishi had mentioned the football in a factory in England then he would have been hammered for assuming everyone in the factory was English or Scottish so had a team in the tournament. How awful he is for not having the sensitivity that there are workers in factories that don’t support purely the teams who have qualified - see, he’s so out of touch. Just because your nations team isn’t in the tournament it doesn’t mean you can’t be looking forward to it. Or some such.
The coverage as a whole is symptomatic of how utterly fucking pathetic our media has become. Obsessed with comedy photo ops and 'gotcha' moments to clip for social media, and daft questions that provide nothing in terms of illumination. Woodward and Bernstein they ain't.
It was perfectly encapsulated yesterday morning on Today. The morning after the election being called on the flagship current affairs programme and the lead angle was that some Tory MPs were flabbergasted, annoyed etc. not that we were getting a general election, the general election everyone was calling for and what that meant for the country, the correspondents had been spending their time whatsappung and being briefed how annoyed MPs were.
It’s a fucking pantomime and the politics is crap because the people who are supposed to be holding their feet to the fire are too invested in the pantomime themselfves. It’s a lot easier to earn your money as a politics journalist by repeating gossip than actually analysing the crap politicians are saying because the journalists, like the politicians, have very rarely actually done anything else of note which would make themselves think, “hang on a minute, when I was working in the steel industry if a boss did this they would be fucked, etc”.
Everything about this turd of a nation is fucked. The politics, the media, the economics, the attitudes, the morality. The way the entire deck is stacked against anyone getting out of their box for a moment. And the slack jaws hose down their bread and circuses clapping like seals for any shit they are told to. We are in the last days of Rome. I like a rant. Cleansing.
If it's so awful here, why is this country one of the top destinations for people from all over the world?
This is the worst election launch in British history, isn’t it?
I suspect if I’m completely honest it’s only us obsessives who are really paying any attention. At the moment I suspect most of the country are simply aware there’s an election coming and Sunak got rained on, and are probably looking forward to the bank holiday.
But yes, it’s been pretty bad.
Most people are focusing on Euro 2024!
But not so much in Wales (Rishi to note) 😈
If Rishi had mentioned the football in a factory in England then he would have been hammered for assuming everyone in the factory was English or Scottish so had a team in the tournament. How awful he is for not having the sensitivity that there are workers in factories that don’t support purely the teams who have qualified - see, he’s so out of touch. Just because your nations team isn’t in the tournament it doesn’t mean you can’t be looking forward to it. Or some such.
The coverage as a whole is symptomatic of how utterly fucking pathetic our media has become. Obsessed with comedy photo ops and 'gotcha' moments to clip for social media, and daft questions that provide nothing in terms of illumination. Woodward and Bernstein they ain't.
It was perfectly encapsulated yesterday morning on Today. The morning after the election being called on the flagship current affairs programme and the lead angle was that some Tory MPs were flabbergasted, annoyed etc. not that we were getting a general election, the general election everyone was calling for and what that meant for the country, the correspondents had been spending their time whatsappung and being briefed how annoyed MPs were.
It’s a fucking pantomime and the politics is crap because the people who are supposed to be holding their feet to the fire are too invested in the pantomime themselfves. It’s a lot easier to earn your money as a politics journalist by repeating gossip than actually analysing the crap politicians are saying because the journalists, like the politicians, have very rarely actually done anything else of note which would make themselves think, “hang on a minute, when I was working in the steel industry if a boss did this they would be fucked, etc”.
Everything about this turd of a nation is fucked. The politics, the media, the economics, the attitudes, the morality. The way the entire deck is stacked against anyone getting out of their box for a moment. And the slack jaws hose down their bread and circuses clapping like seals for any shit they are told to. We are in the last days of Rome. I like a rant. Cleansing.
Certainly when you go to countries like Spain people seem happier despite their economy not being that great either. Better social bonds between people and of course better weather is likely the difference.
Not being miserable grumblers might go against our national character, but we may have been overdoing it lately.
By any historical yardstick, anyone with good health, in the modern UK, has won first prize in the lottery of life.
But, you would not believe it from all the whining.
I think the UK is overall still pretty great, but I have a lot of concerns that we are this kind of low grade malaise - nothing seems to work quite right, we seen incapable of building things, fixing simple things, so much seems to be a little crappy, it does wear me down a bit.
This is the worst election launch in British history, isn’t it?
I suspect if I’m completely honest it’s only us obsessives who are really paying any attention. At the moment I suspect most of the country are simply aware there’s an election coming and Sunak got rained on, and are probably looking forward to the bank holiday.
But yes, it’s been pretty bad.
Most people are focusing on Euro 2024!
But not so much in Wales (Rishi to note) 😈
If Rishi had mentioned the football in a factory in England then he would have been hammered for assuming everyone in the factory was English or Scottish so had a team in the tournament. How awful he is for not having the sensitivity that there are workers in factories that don’t support purely the teams who have qualified - see, he’s so out of touch. Just because your nations team isn’t in the tournament it doesn’t mean you can’t be looking forward to it. Or some such.
The coverage as a whole is symptomatic of how utterly fucking pathetic our media has become. Obsessed with comedy photo ops and 'gotcha' moments to clip for social media, and daft questions that provide nothing in terms of illumination. Woodward and Bernstein they ain't.
It was perfectly encapsulated yesterday morning on Today. The morning after the election being called on the flagship current affairs programme and the lead angle was that some Tory MPs were flabbergasted, annoyed etc. not that we were getting a general election, the general election everyone was calling for and what that meant for the country, the correspondents had been spending their time whatsappung and being briefed how annoyed MPs were.
It’s a fucking pantomime and the politics is crap because the people who are supposed to be holding their feet to the fire are too invested in the pantomime themselfves. It’s a lot easier to earn your money as a politics journalist by repeating gossip than actually analysing the crap politicians are saying because the journalists, like the politicians, have very rarely actually done anything else of note which would make themselves think, “hang on a minute, when I was working in the steel industry if a boss did this they would be fucked, etc”.
Everything about this turd of a nation is fucked. The politics, the media, the economics, the attitudes, the morality. The way the entire deck is stacked against anyone getting out of their box for a moment. And the slack jaws hose down their bread and circuses clapping like seals for any shit they are told to. We are in the last days of Rome. I like a rant. Cleansing.
Certainly when you go to countries like Spain people seem happier despite their economy not being that great either. Better social bonds between people and of course better weather is likely the difference.
Not being miserable grumblers might go against our national character, but we may have been overdoing it lately.
By any historical yardstick, anyone with good health, in the modern UK, has won first prize in the lottery of life.
But, you would not believe it from all the whining.
So, those of us who are disabled, we get what, a lucky dip for the next draw? Unfortunately you can only rail against what you know, not what you don't.
@benrileysmith Now **eleven** Tory MPs have said they’re standing down in the 2 days since Sunak called the election
Andrea Leadsom (just now) Michael Gove Greg Clark Craig Mackinlay John Redwood David Evennett Eleanor Laing Jo Churchill Huw Merriman James Grundy Michael Ellis
How many more??
The significance is that if constituencies are only now learning their MPs are standing down, they have only two weeks to find successors for their often safe seats (candidates must be in place by 7 June). One imagines CCHQ might impose candidates but that can easily backfire as well.
@Peston Senior Tories expect a significant number of further MP resignations over the weekend, in the wake of Gove’s and Leadsom’s decisions not to fight the election. Quite a number who have been re-approved as candidates have been in two minds, and thought they had till the autumn to decide. The party has more than 150 seats and rising with no candidate. That is a lot of candidates for CCHQ to find before 7 June and a lot of wasted campaigning days. It does rather indicate Sunak called the election before his party was ready
Perhaps he’ll end up having to ask Farage to stand as a Tory candidate.
Comments
It’s either staggering levels of ineptitude or deliberate sabotage. Either way, this is going to sink them lower, at least for a time.
Anyhoo, as somebody who is the victim of the politics of envy, I know it wouldn't catch on.
And it's gone from being quaint and maybe charming (at its best) to being absolutely comical and embarrassing, which is why I cringe when people try the snob thing on me, now
And that's setting aside the detrimental affect on society, like racism in America
That said, I agree with other commenters that the same exists across Europe. Some of the greatest snobs I've met in my life have been in Germany, Holland and Sweden, appalling people!
Notably the worst snobs are always those who have absolutely nothing else to boast about. They've joined the family firm, done the usual shit, had some kids, wear red socks/trousers, that's it. It is the under-achievers who are most obsessed with their lineage/schooling/uni/club, and are desperate to talk about it, even tangentially - because it is all they have
In other news Johnson has already invoked the ghost of SJS. Now then, now then.
And yes, I’ve never heard anything other than he was a scrupulously polite and pleasant person to to deal with.
So farewell Michael Gove, a minister so scrupulously polite that he had to hire Dominic Cummings to insult people on his behalf.
He can't fuck off fast enough or far enough
When and where? Can you link to it?
Sorry, I know I’m around a bit on here at the moment but I’m still only an occasional visitor.
I am so embarrassed and I cannot recall the email.
The shame, the shame, THE SHAME.
And if Starmer himself panics, then the wheels could come off the Labour campaign. It feels like a long time until polling day.
Gove would be up for it I am sure.
Churchill (even ignoring pre-1945). Attlee. Bevin. Bevan. Eden. Super Mac. Butler. Jenkins. Wilson. Heath. Healy. Thatcher. Howe. Lawson. Powell. Major. Clarke. Heseltine. Blair. Brown. Mandelson. Cameron. Osborne. Farage. Johnson.
That's a completely non-exhaustive list, and not intended to be a ranking. But it's 25 without needing to think about it.
A lot of us would be grateful, also it might be good for you
We will be living with that legacy for decades.
Both true of course, but how well shielded he is and how powerful the guns will be the significant point.
I note that the Labour party have sworn to undo them, so England can be as shit as Scotland and Wales
https://x.com/andrealeadsom/status/1794088040148721827
One was brought up so working class, one understands the little folk isn't it?
Scott is a master of persistance, I'll give him that.
He supported it, but I very much doubt it was decisive, and he certainly wasn't the prime mover in that, let alone in the past seven decades. That's bonkers.
As Justice Minister believing that prison is about reform and improvement as much (if not more) than punishment. Exemplified by his reversing the decision of his predecessor to ban books in prisons.
As DEFRA Minister reaching out to the Green Lobby and the science community to understand insect collapse and soil depletion and then actually trying to find ways to do something about it whilst bringing the farmers along. I know that Nick Palmer of this parish had good words to say about him even though he was on the other side of the political divide.
She lost all credibility after her 'she's not a mum' garbage against May
Now **eleven** Tory MPs have said they’re standing down in the 2 days since Sunak called the election
Andrea Leadsom (just now)
Michael Gove
Greg Clark
Craig Mackinlay
John Redwood
David Evennett
Eleanor Laing
Jo Churchill
Huw Merriman
James Grundy
Michael Ellis
How many more??
The UNOFFICIAL Monster Raving Loony Party.
Seeing as how the current OFRMP has morphed into yet another worn-out, over-entitled wing of The Not-So-Great British Establishment?
Bring back the populist fervor of the late, truly great Screaming Lord Sutch!
And he worked as a waiter in a curry house as a lad, did David Cameron do that? Did Sir Kir Royale Starmer do that? Boris?
I despise this rhetoric, and I am on the right and highly critical of mass immigration, but if we must have immigration (and we do need some, of course) then Sunak is absolutely exemplary, the best kind of immigration: His parents came with almost nothing, worked extrenely hard, and honestly, and their son has also worked extremely hard and done well. And, yes, he married well - good for him! And he has nice kids and seems like a nice guy
What are we meant to do? Spit on him for being an Indian that worked hard? Fuck this shit. It is ugly and nasty
But as Jarvis sang 'everybody hates a tourist, especially one who thinks its all such a laugh'
If you've known the misery, you don't wear it like a badge
https://x.com/joel_p_atkinson/status/1793424845356839304
Ambassador Wu Jianghao: "Once the country of Japan is tied to the tanks plotting to split China, the Japanese people will be brought into the fire"
Government’s top spokesman, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshimasa Hayashi: “extremely inappropriate remarks” “severe protest”
Only 34% of barristers went to state school.
60% of charting musicians in 2010 went to private schools. Don't quote me on the number of actors. etc.
The disproportionate sway the 7% that were privately educated have over British public life is enormous, and we'd be fools to dismiss it, against all the statistical evidence. And I say this as one of the 7%.
Is it a Masonic Brotherhood, with a secret handshake where *only* those who know the secret code can get on in life? Of course not. Is it a club to which membership grants enormous perks, from networking with the right sort at an early age, to knowing how to behave at dinner? Of course.
The UK is as divided by class as it's always been.
BUT with 100 being the floor NOT the ceiling.
His education reforms have been gradually dismantled, his liberalisation of the prison system has been overtaken by the failure to provide enough capacity. He was likely well-suited to being Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, but in reality achieved little during the pre-Brexit limbo, and was then swamped by Covid.
So, what are we left with? He was a fairly good Environment Secretary for two years? He almost-but-not-quite got some useful stuff done at Levelling Up?
That's his problem, really - lots of potentially good ideas, not much actual delivery, and next to no ongoing support to ensure that his work took effect over the longer term.
A lot of that isn't entirely his fault, he was stymied by the dysfunctional government machine. But a truly significant figure should have done better.
Yet she would have been a better PM than May in almost every possible way.
In 2019 the average length of service of those standing down was 18.5 years.
The average for those you list there is around 17.5 years
For many of those jumping now it really is just their time.
But, you would not believe it from all the whining.
(You *were* asking for it.)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0377981/
I have a vague impression, perhaps wrong, that you will disagree with me on this...
Senior Tories expect a significant number of further MP resignations over the weekend, in the wake of Gove’s and Leadsom’s decisions not to fight the election. Quite a number who have been re-approved as candidates have been in two minds, and thought they had till the autumn to decide. The party has more than 150 seats and rising with no candidate. That is a lot of candidates for CCHQ to find before 7 June and a lot of wasted campaigning days. It does rather indicate Sunak called the election before his party was ready
Unfortunately you can only rail against what you know, not what you don't.