politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » David Herdson on Saturday: We might have passed peak UKIP?
Comments
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I do it has made the narrative easier.CarlottaVance said:
You don't think Mr Miliband's intervention has made Cameron's life (a lot) easier?Yorkcity said:
Give over even without the tweet, Cameron and the Conservatives were going no where near a brick wall.CarlottaVance said:
Yep - that's about the long & short of it - Labour Uncut had a pretty devastating dissection of the whole mess and the New Statesman pulled few punches in critiquing Miliband's office. I think Nick Robinson yesterday observed that Cameron was in a car hurtling at 100mph towards a brick wall until Miliband inexplicably threw himself in front of it.....SouthamObserver said:
I think she was stupid and that she revealed how out of touch she was. I think Ed over-reacted massively, because he saw a sneer when there wasn't one - which tells us a lot more about Ed than it does about her.isam said:
What is your view on the Thornberry incident then?SouthamObserver said:
But not "a large proportion". Some working class people are very patriotic. Just like some people from other social classes.JohnLilburne said:
Doesn't mean it is an uncommon sight, though. If only 1% of people hang flags from their windows, that is still an awful lot of houses.SouthamObserver said:
I guess my problem is that I base my views on reality. The vast majority of white working class people do not fly flags from their windows or anywhere else and they do not drive white vans.MarqueeMark said:
You need to widen your circle of Lefties if you hold that view.SouthamObserver said:
No they don't. On all counts.Itajai said:
A large proportion of white working class voters hang England flags outside their homes, especially during sporting events. Their fabled vehicle of choice is a white van.AndreaParma_82 said:I've yet not understood the Thornberry fuss. Really, from an outsider it's really difficult to understand the problem of her tweet.
Leftist middle class types think the flag is racist. And uncouth. And flown by the ill educated.
There excuses were practised and in place.
If you believe the brick wall metaphor, you are deluded.
And you think I'm deluded......
However you seem to always belief the party line.
100 MPH to a brick wall , do you honestly believe that ?
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But I have noticed the English flag only in the last 10/15 years or so and only around England team and some tournament. It rapidly gets withdrawn as England usually makes the exit fast.CarlottaVance said:
When asked a couple of days ago (rather than 2 years, in the article you link to)Socrates said:@SouthamObserver
24% of people in this country consider the English flag to be racist:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9217620/St-Georges-flag-is-a-racist-symbol-says-a-quarter-of-the-English.html
Do you think these people are politically right of centre?
@Populus Just 7% of public surprised to see England flag on someone's house. 28% feel patriotic, 28% indifferent, 24% proud.
Only 1% (each) felt excluded, offended or intimidated.0 -
I think MikeK is about the only one on this site who can look back at what they did 80 years ago!Indigo said:
Eighty or more years ago... why dont we hold all the things we did a Eighty or more years ago up to the light and see how they look.Ninoinoz said:
Yes, like you British integrated in India.Socrates said:
Yes, they are. But Muslim girls and Bengali girls shouldn't have to face a massive social pressure to give up on dreams of achieving things outside the homes because the culture of their community is so backwards. Muslims and Bengalis living in our country need to integrate with our mainstream British culture, not build up separate little enclaves that are mini-Bangladeshs.Ninoinoz said:
But you are not Muslims or Bengalis.Charles said:
1) It's when you impose those rules as a matter of course purely because of someone's gender. My wife and I decided she would give up work when our daughter was born, because we feel that is a better way to raise a child. But we have the luxury of choice: she should not have been obliged to do so because she is a woman.Ninoinoz said:
1) It was a CofE school. They were taught in the home and mosque. In any case, what's wrong with precisely defined gender roles?Socrates said:
1) There's a huge bloody difference between it being acceptable for some women to choose to be homemakers and the belief that it's a woman's "job" to stay at home purely because she's a woman. The latter is highly sexist, and it's appalling that kids in 21st Century Britain are being taught it in schools.
2) Secular law isn't the views of "whatever totalitarian clique" is in power. That's the case in places like Afghanistan and Zimbabwe where the executive comes above the law. We are not like Afghanistan and Zimbabwe. We are a superior society where law is held above the executive. Muslim kids need to know that. And they need to know that their arbitrary beliefs about which animals are ok for eating are just something voluntary upon their part, and not something required of everyone.
2) A truly laughable point when the executive controls parliament through whipping. Great example of parliament restraining the executive, that Iraq War.
Other people are allowed to organise their lives differently.0 -
That's a shame. Maybe next time.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Royale, I'm afraid I wasn't there.
Not sure if it's related to Ladbrokes falling asleep [maybe there's some sort of strange inquiry delaying an official grid, but there's nothing on the BBC site] but Betfair's also sluggish.
I'll wait a short time but may come back later if it doesn't kick off soon.
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Or the Italians in Libya or Somalia?Ninoinoz said:
Yes, like you British integrated in India.Socrates said:
Yes, they are. But Muslim girls and Bengali girls shouldn't have to face a massive social pressure to give up on dreams of achieving things outside the homes because the culture of their community is so backwards. Muslims and Bengalis living in our country need to integrate with our mainstream British culture, not build up separate little enclaves that are mini-Bangladeshs.Ninoinoz said:
But you are not Muslims or Bengalis.Charles said:
1) It's when you impose those rules as a matter of course purely because of someone's gender. My wife and I decided she would give up work when our daughter was born, because we feel that is a better way to raise a child. But we have the luxury of choice: she should not have been obliged to do so because she is a woman.Ninoinoz said:
1) It was a CofE school. They were taught in the home and mosque. In any case, what's wrong with precisely defined gender roles?Socrates said:
1) There's a huge bloody difference between it being acceptable for some women to choose to be homemakers and the belief that it's a woman's "job" to stay at home purely because she's a woman. The latter is highly sexist, and it's appalling that kids in 21st Century Britain are being taught it in schools.
2) Secular law isn't the views of "whatever totalitarian clique" is in power. That's the case in places like Afghanistan and Zimbabwe where the executive comes above the law. We are not like Afghanistan and Zimbabwe. We are a superior society where law is held above the executive. Muslim kids need to know that. And they need to know that their arbitrary beliefs about which animals are ok for eating are just something voluntary upon their part, and not something required of everyone.
2) A truly laughable point when the executive controls parliament through whipping. Great example of parliament restraining the executive, that Iraq War.
Other people are allowed to organise their lives differently.
PS. Nice meeting you last night at the PB bash!0 -
Fair enough, the gist was correct.Socrates said:
In India, it was the other way round. It was the low class workers that went out for the East India Company that integrated. It was when the elite turned up during the British Raj that didn't integrate and brought over their own women.Swiss_Bob said:
I don't suppose you thought much about the ghettoes in England when you wrote that.
Edit There actually was a lot of integration in SA and India in the beginning, it changed when the lower orders turned up ;-)
I have less knowledge of South Africa, but it's my understanding the Afrikaans that got their first were the most racist.0 -
Do you think a quarter of people in the country should be disenfranchised?Socrates said:@SouthamObserver
24% of people in this country consider the English flag to be racist:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9217620/St-Georges-flag-is-a-racist-symbol-says-a-quarter-of-the-English.html
Do you think these people are politically right of centre?0 -
Nope, just pointing out the difference between a masculine settlement and a mass immigration.Swiss_Bob said:
Pathetic.
Why didn't you add homophobic, racist, transgenderist etc and go the whole hog you moron.
Compare the wartime Polish emigration to Britain and the more recent economic immigration.0 -
Thing is Roger old boy Tolhurst is that rarity in politics someone authentic albeit rough edged. Blair was the advertiser's dream and we all know how that went.Roger said:
FPT.Having just flicked through this thread and following the zeitgeist of white van man and his flags I couldn't help but notice that some on here now think the Tory lady from Rochester was the ideal choice and it was just the champagne socialist snobs and yound Tory zealots who couldn't see it.
Well I'm sorry but she came accross as a sneering half cooked moron. I understand that someone from the highlands might not understand the nuances of English accents but there is no excuse for anyone else.
In advertising there are very specific voices and accents which people use for particular products. Seductive trustworthy honest dishonest sharp stupid simple etc etc. It is something that is understood by our subconscious. Anyone wanting to sell insurance for example is not going to seek out Kelly Tolhurst but might well use the soft Edinburgh accent of Alastaire Darling.
So enough of this inverted snobbery. Ed's was crass enough yesterday but let's not make ourselves look ridiculous by following him.0 -
Or the French in Algeria.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Or the Italians in Libya or Somalia?Ninoinoz said:
Yes, like you British integrated in India.Socrates said:
Yes, they are. But Muslim girls and Bengali girls shouldn't have to face a massive social pressure to give up on dreams of achieving things outside the homes because the culture of their community is so backwards. Muslims and Bengalis living in our country need to integrate with our mainstream British culture, not build up separate little enclaves that are mini-Bangladeshs.Ninoinoz said:
But you are not Muslims or Bengalis.Charles said:
1) It's when you impose those rules as a matter of course purely because of someone's gender. My wife and I decided she would give up work when our daughter was born, because we feel that is a better way to raise a child. But we have the luxury of choice: she should not have been obliged to do so because she is a woman.Ninoinoz said:
1) It was a CofE school. They were taught in the home and mosque. In any case, what's wrong with precisely defined gender roles?Socrates said:
1) There's a huge bloody difference between it being acceptable for some women to choose to be homemakers and the belief that it's a woman's "job" to stay at home purely because she's a woman. The latter is highly sexist, and it's appalling that kids in 21st Century Britain are being taught it in schools.
2) Secular law isn't the views of "whatever totalitarian clique" is in power. That's the case in places like Afghanistan and Zimbabwe where the executive comes above the law. We are not like Afghanistan and Zimbabwe. We are a superior society where law is held above the executive. Muslim kids need to know that. And they need to know that their arbitrary beliefs about which animals are ok for eating are just something voluntary upon their part, and not something required of everyone.
2) A truly laughable point when the executive controls parliament through whipping. Great example of parliament restraining the executive, that Iraq War.
Other people are allowed to organise their lives differently.
PS. Nice meeting you last night at the PB bash!
PS. Nice seeing you, too.0 -
I'll be honest I really think she was sneering. To me the image saidCarlottaVance said:
I suspect she was bored...knocking on doors with no one home - sent to campaign in a seat the party weren't making a serious effort in.....oh look - a house with a lot of flags! Snap! Tweet! "Hello, can I count on your support in today's election?"isam said:
If she wasn't sneering, what do you think her motivation to tweet the picture was?SouthamObserver said:
I think she was stupid and that she revealed how out of touch she was. I think Ed over-reacted massively, because he saw a sneer when there wasn't one - which tells us a lot more about Ed than it does about her.isam said:
What is your view on the Thornberry incident then?SouthamObserver said:
But not "a large proportion". Some working class people are very patriotic. Just like some people from other social classes.JohnLilburne said:SouthamObserver said:MarqueeMark said:
You need to widen your circle of Lefties if you hold that view.SouthamObserver said:
No they don't. On all counts.Itajai said:
A large proportion of white working class voters hang England flags outside their homes, especially during sporting events. Their fabled vehicle of choice is a white van.AndreaParma_82 said:I've yet not understood the Thornberry fuss. Really, from an outsider it's really difficult to understand the problem of her tweet.
Leftist middle class types think the flag is racist. And uncouth. And flown by the ill educated.
What's revealing is Miliband's hypersensitivity to relations with traditional WWC supporters and gross over reaction to a single, simple tweet. He, or his office, panicked badly and turned a 5 minute wonder into a story we're still discussing days later.....
"This is what a place where UKIP do well looks like..."
...and she let her followers fill in the blanks
But I could be wrong, it could all be innocent
I canvassed for UKIP/Carswell in Jaywick and that really was an eye opener. I can honestly say I have never seen anything like it. But I wouldn't have taken a picture as it would have been a bit insulting,not to mention embarrassing had the person whose house it was asked why I was doing so
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Fascinating - thank you!isam said:
I only noticed because it's a poll that I think is very significant to the whole immigration debate. It was what made me quite sure that UKIP could make big inroads, and has come in handy for betting as a resultCarlottaVance said:
Well spotted - nearly four - Jan 2011 - they re-tweeted it yesterday.isam said:
I thought that Populus poll was three years old?CarlottaVance said:
When asked a couple of days ago (rather than 2 years, in the article you link to)Socrates said:@SouthamObserver
24% of people in this country consider the English flag to be racist:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9217620/St-Georges-flag-is-a-racist-symbol-says-a-quarter-of-the-English.html
Do you think these people are politically right of centre?
@Populus Just 7% of public surprised to see England flag on someone's house. 28% feel patriotic, 28% indifferent, 24% proud.
Only 1% (each) felt excluded, offended or intimidated.
However, since the BNP have all but disappeared, one would hope people still don't feel 'excluded', 'offended' or 'intimidated' by an English flag, as SO observes, flying an English flag in England is hardly noteworthy......
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/feb/27/support-poll-support-far-right
Huge numbers of Britons would support an anti-immigration English nationalist party if it was not associated with violence and fascist imagery, according to the largest survey into identity and extremism conducted in the UK.0 -
No. Just consistently outvoted.rcs1000 said:
Do you think a quarter of people in the country should be disenfranchised?Socrates said:@SouthamObserver
24% of people in this country consider the English flag to be racist:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9217620/St-Georges-flag-is-a-racist-symbol-says-a-quarter-of-the-English.html
Do you think these people are politically right of centre?0 -
I haven't been in a job centre in 20 years (fortunately), but I have been in an Armed Forces Resettlement Centre.ZenPagan said:
Every job centre should have a small business advisor style person who can arrange for someone to get on an HGV course, a course in plumbing, a course in brick laying etc. They should also offer courses on how to run a small business.
The facilities in the resettlement centres are superb and include those you've cited (as well as CV courses, job hunting tips and tricks (including a great handbook on how to do it). The success rate in resettlement courses is very high (or at least it was when I went through in 2012 - and that was a pretty lean time in the job market). If job centres don't currently provide such facilities, they really bloody should.0 -
I don't think the tweet that did for her it was the spin and lies that followed. Her attempted spin made it sound even worse, and as part of it she lied.
As I said a couple of days ago, in the days of Bad Al, this would have been spun properly and she would still be in a job. The other problem Ed has, is he has spent 2 years blasting at every lefty liberal metro elite favourite bogey men the Daily Mail and the Sun. They are just waiting to stick the boot.
What this means, if anything, I don't know. Its a good job that the BBC have a similar world view to that allegedly of Thornberry in relation to flag flying white van men.0 -
Rejoice in one of the infrequent occasions you agree with Ed then!isam said:
I'll be honest I really think she was sneering.CarlottaVance said:
I suspect she was bored...knocking on doors with no one home - sent to campaign in a seat the party weren't making a serious effort in.....oh look - a house with a lot of flags! Snap! Tweet! "Hello, can I count on your support in today's election?"isam said:
If she wasn't sneering, what do you think her motivation to tweet the picture was?SouthamObserver said:
I think she was stupid and that she revealed how out of touch she was. I think Ed over-reacted massively, because he saw a sneer when there wasn't one - which tells us a lot more about Ed than it does about her.isam said:
What is your view on the Thornberry incident then?SouthamObserver said:
But not "a large proportion". Some working class people are very patriotic. Just like some people from other social classes.JohnLilburne said:SouthamObserver said:MarqueeMark said:
You need to widen your circle of Lefties if you hold that view.SouthamObserver said:
No they don't. On all counts.Itajai said:
A large proportion of white working class voters hang England flags outside their homes, especially during sporting events. Their fabled vehicle of choice is a white van.AndreaParma_82 said:I've yet not understood the Thornberry fuss. Really, from an outsider it's really difficult to understand the problem of her tweet.
Leftist middle class types think the flag is racist. And uncouth. And flown by the ill educated.
What's revealing is Miliband's hypersensitivity to relations with traditional WWC supporters and gross over reaction to a single, simple tweet. He, or his office, panicked badly and turned a 5 minute wonder into a story we're still discussing days later.....
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LOL
It's like large tattoos. I think they're fascinating and not odd at all. I see many more huge tattoos on white van delivery drivers than anywhere else. And shaved fashion statement blokes. I wish more became local councilors and got airtime as they're smart and hardworking people who have strong values and opinions.
Or keeping a patched horse on the verge outside your house so your kids can learn to ride. Or wearing a football shirt to the supermarket when you're older than 9yrs. All those things are telling me they're proud and distinctive individuals who want to get on/be part of tribe and have their say.
It's all about understanding what a culture is saying about themselves - and being interested in what worries them, understanding it/trying to make life better on their terms. Not on yours. Or pretending to respect them as EdM did. Even if you're a barrister specialising in human rights and live in a £3m house in Islington. Ms Emily really got it wrong because a) she clearly didn't get it when this is precisely the sort Labour have courted for years b) she looked down on them like another species and c) got all uppity when challenged.
It was an epic example of not knowing your own audience.JohnLilburne said:SouthamObserver said:Socrates said:
She ought to, she will represent a number. They probably come to her surgeries.SouthamObserver said:
As I said, she was commenting as a middle class politician, who like most middle class politicians of all parties, does not spend much time with people that hang multiple flags from their windows, drive white vans and are covered in tattoos.Socrates said:
She said she'd "never seen anything like it". Now I would have thought people flying two flags, or one big flag out their house would have been something "like it". The woman was utterly astonished at a fairly common site among working class and lower middle class people. Was it a sackable offence? No. But it showed that she was deeply out of touch.SouthamObserver said:
And she will see the same in the many council estates that there are in Islington. What was out of the ordinary was the number and the fact that they covered so much of the house. Astonishing? No, of course not. Unusual, yes.Charles said:
It sounds like you don't go out much either. I know plenty of council estates from places like Hatfield and Basildon where people hang flags out their window on a permanent basis.SouthamObserver said:0 -
Why? Do you think I've somehow managed to change race?Socrates said:0 -
Yes that is correct, flags, also flying out of cars sold from all major supermarkets alongside cheap lager and constant Carling adverts.surbiton said:
But I have noticed the English flag only in the last 10/15 years or so and only around England team and some tournament. It rapidly gets withdrawn as England usually makes the exit fast.CarlottaVance said:
When asked a couple of days ago (rather than 2 years, in the article you link to)Socrates said:@SouthamObserver
24% of people in this country consider the English flag to be racist:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9217620/St-Georges-flag-is-a-racist-symbol-says-a-quarter-of-the-English.html
Do you think these people are politically right of centre?
@Populus Just 7% of public surprised to see England flag on someone's house. 28% feel patriotic, 28% indifferent, 24% proud.
Only 1% (each) felt excluded, offended or intimidated.
Apart from that when you see English flags flying outside houses, if you look up there are on many occasions trainers tied to telephone wires marking out territory.0 -
Is that the sound of furious back-pedalling because you said nothing of the sort.Ninoinoz said:
Nope, just pointing out the difference between a masculine settlement and a mass immigration.Swiss_Bob said:
Pathetic.
Why didn't you add homophobic, racist, transgenderist etc and go the whole hog you moron.
Compare the wartime Polish emigration to Britain and the more recent economic immigration.0 -
Re SA:
Before union, the Cape Colony had traditionally implemented a system of non-racial franchise, whereby qualifications for suffrage were applied equally to all males, regardless of race. During the union negotiations, the Cape Prime Minister, John X. Merriman fought unsuccessfully to extend this multi-racial franchise system to the rest of South Africa. This failed, as it was strongly opposed by the other constituent states which were determined to entrench white rule. After union, the Cape Province was permitted to keep a restricted version of its multi-racial qualified franchise, and thus became the only province where coloureds (mixed-race people) and Black Africans could vote.
Over the following years, successive acts were passed to erode this colour-blind voters roll. In 1931, the restricting franchise qualifications were removed for white voters, but kept for Black and Coloured voters. In 1956, the Apartheid government removed all remaining suffrage rights for "non-whites". The government had to appoint many extra senators in parliament to force through this change.
Started off well, went down hill.0 -
Emily Thornberry can you hear me? Emily Thornberry, your boys took one hell of a Tweeting!0
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That the people of the British Isles are a race or not is a political viewpoint:MonikerDiCanio said:
These topical questions – hot potatoes in political debates ranging from potential Scottish independence to Britain’s role in the European Union – have now also been probed at the most fundamental level of all in ground-breaking research by an eminent team of Oxford researchers. The team, led by Oxford geneticist Professor Sir Walter Bodmer, has conducted a detailed and wide-ranging study of the genetic make-up of the Peoples of the British Isles (PoBI). Fascinatingly, their findings show that most people living in the British Isles are fundamentally extremely similar, genetically-speaking at least.
http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/features/what-makes-british
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That was more to the passing of power from the British establishment to the Afrikaans National Party, rather than a change in the settlers. The Afrikaans were the ones that were there first.Swiss_Bob said:Re SA:
Before union, the Cape Colony had traditionally implemented a system of non-racial franchise, whereby qualifications for suffrage were applied equally to all males, regardless of race. During the union negotiations, the Cape Prime Minister, John X. Merriman fought unsuccessfully to extend this multi-racial franchise system to the rest of South Africa. This failed, as it was strongly opposed by the other constituent states which were determined to entrench white rule. After union, the Cape Province was permitted to keep a restricted version of its multi-racial qualified franchise, and thus became the only province where coloureds (mixed-race people) and Black Africans could vote.
Over the following years, successive acts were passed to erode this colour-blind voters roll. In 1931, the restricting franchise qualifications were removed for white voters, but kept for Black and Coloured voters. In 1956, the Apartheid government removed all remaining suffrage rights for "non-whites". The government had to appoint many extra senators in parliament to force through this change.
Started off well, went down hill.0 -
There is the New Enterprise Allowance scheme which provides advice and support on setting up your business and a small allowance (£65pw) when you start trading, loans are also available. Courses are easy to arrange but the funding is often not available for adult learners who are expected to pay their own way, having said that you can always get a Career Development Loan. However change-of-career training is often not cost-effective, as the person will often end up getting a job back in their original line of business anyway, and it is always difficult to get a job with a qualification but no experience if there are lots of trained-and-experienced people looking for a job.Andy_Cooke said:
I haven't been in a job centre in 20 years (fortunately), but I have been in an Armed Forces Resettlement Centre.ZenPagan said:
Every job centre should have a small business advisor style person who can arrange for someone to get on an HGV course, a course in plumbing, a course in brick laying etc. They should also offer courses on how to run a small business.
The facilities in the resettlement centres are superb and include those you've cited (as well as CV courses, job hunting tips and tricks (including a great handbook on how to do it). The success rate in resettlement courses is very high (or at least it was when I went through in 2012 - and that was a pretty lean time in the job market). If job centres don't currently provide such facilities, they really bloody should.
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Genetically speaking a mosquito is extremely similar to a man.Swiss_Bob said:
That the people of the British Isles are a race or not is a political viewpoint:MonikerDiCanio said:
These topical questions – hot potatoes in political debates ranging from potential Scottish independence to Britain’s role in the European Union – have now also been probed at the most fundamental level of all in ground-breaking research by an eminent team of Oxford researchers. The team, led by Oxford geneticist Professor Sir Walter Bodmer, has conducted a detailed and wide-ranging study of the genetic make-up of the Peoples of the British Isles (PoBI). Fascinatingly, their findings show that most people living in the British Isles are fundamentally extremely similar, genetically-speaking at least.
http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/features/what-makes-british
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More on how screwed up those Muslim schools are:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/education/ofsted-warns-of-extremist-influences-and-radicalisation-in-east-london-muslim-schools-9874875.html
Why are they not being closed down?0 -
I suspect that for 25% of British people, their British identity just isn't that important to them. Perhaps they regard themselves principally as Scottish, or Londoners, or Arsenal fans, or Catholic, or Jewish, or whatever.Socrates said:
No. Just consistently outvoted.rcs1000 said:
Do you think a quarter of people in the country should be disenfranchised?Socrates said:@SouthamObserver
24% of people in this country consider the English flag to be racist:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9217620/St-Georges-flag-is-a-racist-symbol-says-a-quarter-of-the-English.html
Do you think these people are politically right of centre?
And for another 25% of the population, their British-ness or English-ness is their defining characteristic.
But here's the thing: 30 years ago or 50 years ago, the chances of you having significant close relationships with non-British people were small. You worked in all British environment; you didn't converse on the Internet (over Skype or Facebook or politicabetting) with non-Brits. British or Englishness was much more central to people then that it is today.
A combination of globalisation, the Internet, gap years abroad, Ryanair, the Erasmus programme, the opening up of US universities, etc. etc. means that people simply have much more global views and relationships than they used to, and inevitably this means there is a dilution in the importantness of Englishness to them.
Personally, I think it's great that people celebrate their history and their shared culture. And the Union Jack and the Flag of St George are fine with me. (I always think the French and the Americans, who wear their patriotism on their sleeve, are great.)
But it's also great that people have the freedom to pursue their work and their education in an increasing number of places in the world.
I'm also reminded of the wonderful line from the Folk band Show of Hands, about the Union Jack: "It's my flag too, and I want it back."0 -
Anyone think the Ozzies will beat the Irish today?0
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Yup, and I don't think she should've been forced out despite disliking her intensely on the telly.JohnLilburne said:
It tells me he thought "Oh sh1t. Of course we all think they are frightfully vulgar but we mustn't let them realise that."SouthamObserver said:
I think she was stupid and that she revealed how out of touch she was. I think Ed over-reacted massively, because he saw a sneer when there wasn't one - which tells us a lot more about Ed than it does about her.isam said:
What is your view on the Thornberry incident then?SouthamObserver said:
But not "a large proportion". Some working class people are very patriotic. Just like some people from other social classes.JohnLilburne said:
Doesn't mean it is an uncommon sight, though. If only 1% of people hang flags from their windows, that is still an awful lot of houses.SouthamObserver said:
I guess my problem is that I base my views on reality. The vast majority of white working class people do not fly flags from their windows or anywhere else and they do not drive white vans.MarqueeMark said:
You need to widen your circle of Lefties if you hold that view.SouthamObserver said:
No they don't. On all counts.Itajai said:
A large proportion of white working class voters hang England flags outside their homes, especially during sporting events. Their fabled vehicle of choice is a white van.AndreaParma_82 said:I've yet not understood the Thornberry fuss. Really, from an outsider it's really difficult to understand the problem of her tweet.
Leftist middle class types think the flag is racist. And uncouth. And flown by the ill educated.0 -
Ladbrokes still has not got the markets up and Betfair's also not got going really. I might check again this evening, or do the pre-race piece tomorrow morning. Bit perplexed, and mildly irked.0
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In 1880......Swiss_Bob said:
That the people of the British Isles are a race or not is a political viewpoint:MonikerDiCanio said:
These topical questions – hot potatoes in political debates ranging from potential Scottish independence to Britain’s role in the European Union – have now also been probed at the most fundamental level of all in ground-breaking research by an eminent team of Oxford researchers. The team, led by Oxford geneticist Professor Sir Walter Bodmer, has conducted a detailed and wide-ranging study of the genetic make-up of the Peoples of the British Isles (PoBI). Fascinatingly, their findings show that most people living in the British Isles are fundamentally extremely similar, genetically-speaking at least.
http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/features/what-makes-british
the data gave an accurate picture of the genetic makeup of rural Britain in around 1880
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Get rid of the tilde in future, I'm Italian, as Sunil has already pointed out.MonikerDiCanio said:
I find saying I'm Italian helps to get along in this country. Insulting people's intelligence is rarely a good starting point.
The brutal truth is that Italians as a group do not have sufficient numbers to form our own institutions, but as Roman Catholics we most certainly do.
Hence my ferocious defence of Faith Schools further down thread.0 -
@DPJHodges: Just seen clip of Ed Balls absolutely hammering Thornberry. Said you would have to be from "another planet" to find that house odd.
Will the row make it into another day?0 -
The Sun offering a free St George's flag to every reader on the masthead was hilarious retribution.FrancisUrquhart said:
I don't think the tweet that did for her it was the spin and lies that followed. Her attempted spin made it sound even worse, and as part of it she lied.
As I said a couple of days ago, in the days of Bad Al, this would have been spun properly and she would still be in a job. The other problem Ed has, is he has spent 2 years blasting at every lefty liberal metro elite favourite bogey men the Daily Mail and the Sun. They are just waiting to stick the boot.
What this means, if anything, I don't know. Its a good job that the BBC have a similar world view to that allegedly of Thornberry in relation to flag flying white van men.0 -
MD: The Red Bull cars have been declared illegal ...Morris_Dancer said:Ladbrokes still has not got the markets up and Betfair's also not got going really. I might check again this evening, or do the pre-race piece tomorrow morning. Bit perplexed, and mildly irked.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30161617
It looks as though it's a reignition of the old flexible wings saga.
As a devious aside, what would the points be like if Vettel and Ricci were dq'ed from all races this year? Not that that would happen, as wings change virtually every race.0 -
And what has that to do with the price of a loaf of bread?CarlottaVance said:
In 1880......Swiss_Bob said:
That the people of the British Isles are a race or not is a political viewpoint:MonikerDiCanio said:
These topical questions – hot potatoes in political debates ranging from potential Scottish independence to Britain’s role in the European Union – have now also been probed at the most fundamental level of all in ground-breaking research by an eminent team of Oxford researchers. The team, led by Oxford geneticist Professor Sir Walter Bodmer, has conducted a detailed and wide-ranging study of the genetic make-up of the Peoples of the British Isles (PoBI). Fascinatingly, their findings show that most people living in the British Isles are fundamentally extremely similar, genetically-speaking at least.
http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/features/what-makes-british
the data gave an accurate picture of the genetic makeup of rural Britain in around 1880
As for humans and mosquitoes you are so wrong it's laughable:
Number of human genes predicted: 20,251
Number of mosquito genes predicted: 13,683
(Predicted from sequenced genomes)0 -
Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?Socrates said:More on how screwed up those Muslim schools are:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/education/ofsted-warns-of-extremist-influences-and-radicalisation-in-east-london-muslim-schools-9874875.html
Why are they not being closed down?
They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.
It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.0 -
New Thread
Will Burnley FC hold out for another ten minutes ?0 -
new thread
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Good grief. Brilliant interception and try by Ireland. I can kiss that money goodbye.0
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MikeSmithson said:
This is getting tedious David. I would have voted Tory in Rochester on Thursday to keep UKIP out. This is what you get with first past the past and your repeated posts don't appear to comprehend how the electoral system works.david_herdson said:
That was at a local by-election and as you say, even that caused much embarrassment / laughter (depending on which side, if any, you support). But were it to happen at a Westminster by-election, that would be a different matter altogether. It would be the sort of event that consistently gets referenced in the popular media, HIGNFY and so on, and does serious and lasting damage to the image of a party which is already struggling.MaxPB said:I think after the Lib Dems got beaten into fifth place by the Bus Pass Elvis party they lost all credibility.
There was a council byelection on the 20th in R&S too. The LD vote share is identical (to 1dp).
council by-election result in full:
UKIP 2,850 (48%),
Con 1,965 (33%),
Lab 716 (12%),
Green 314 (5%),
Lib Dem 60 (1.0%).
Parliamentary by-election:
Mark Reckless (UKIP) 16,867 (42.10%),
Kelly Tolhurst (C) 13,947 (34.81%, -14.39%),
Naushabah Khan (Lab) 6,713 (16.76%, -11.70%),
Clive Gregory (Green) 1,692 (4.22%, +2.69%),
Geoff Juby (LD) 349 (0.87%, -15.39%),
"This is what you get with first past the post.."
Not disputing your motivations would cause you to tacvote agin UKIP MP.. but would any/many others have an identical visceral dislike of a new UKIP councillor..?
And with the same percentage vote share in both elections?
Perhaps more likely : the LibDems have just died as a political force in this constituency.0
