They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
Usual southern centric bollox, loony southern party with 2 defectors in parliament is supposed to be big news. Shows how poor and pathetic Tories and Labour are when these half wits have them scared.
What did you think of Sturgeon's cabinet appointments? I posted the results yesterday but not much interest.
seems reasonable pick, just got rid of a few old duffers and promoted some capable women. Will be interesting to see the outcome , her initial tone was very inclusive and will be interesting to see if the other parties (Tories )can get over their bitterness and try to work with her. Lib dems are goners and Labour are too stupid to do anything sensible. I have not been impressed at all by Davidson so far and so will be interesting to see how she plays it. Labour getting crushed can only help the Tories.
Where do you think SLAB's travails will help the Tartan Tories the most? And, what about Davidson so 'unimpresses' you?
I have yet to see her have any original thought, she really is just a puppet of London. She got in by the back door and to me is just a toady. Has fallen into the same mode as Labour and just follows the "SNP bad" routine. You never hear the Tories coming up with anything that would be beneficial for Scotland or any utterance that maybe some of the London policies really are crap for us. They are happy just to be hangers on, a completely talentless set of muppets. I cannot think of any Scottish Tory that I could say was a decent person who had any interest whatsoever in Scotland, they are that bad.
Davidson has seen off loser Salmond and she"ll see the back of Sturgeon.
Scrapping Trident would not be unpopular. Even some ex-military friends would be quite happy to see it scrapped in favour of keeping more front line ships, soldiers and planes.
Indeed, but the chances of money like that staying in the defense budget are remote, if they scrapped trident that money would (if we are lucky) pay of some deficit, although the record of doing that isnt good, or more likely disappear into the welfare budget or the health budget, where it would hardly make a ripple.
At a time of Russian resurgence the UK would be mad to scrap it's deterrent.
The Russian navy would park off the Firth of Moray and sit there as a malevolent shadow over the British Govt.
Trident is a weapon designed for cold war Mutual Assured Destruction. The idea is now as obsolete as cavalry. It is designed to be concealed in the deepest ocean to retaliate by laying waste to all the cities of our enemy. Flattening cities does seem a little old school nowadays surely?
The Russians off Moray would be more deterred by having some planes on the UK carriers, and IS could be taken out by cruise missiles much more effectively than 256 MIRV Trident warheads.
Tell it to the Israelis.
Edit. And the Indians, Japanese and S Koreans.
The Israelis did not flatten a city, indeed they took heavy casualties by moving in infantry. They could have turned Gaza into radioactive dust if they had wanted.
If IS were to attack us, would we nuke Raqqa? Alleppo? Mosul? Kobane?
You misunderstood.
It is the Israelis that are under a realistic threat of having Tel Aviv nuked by the Iranians,India by Pakistan and Japan and S Korea by N Korea.
I ALWAYS go hair of the dog on the rare occasions I feel a bit peculiar. Works wonders. I know I've really gone too far when I can't look at the empties.
Guinness? That's like drinking soil. Not my tipple! On cornflakes? Ewwww - that makes me feel queasy just imaging it coming back up to say Hello!!
I'm blessed with what I can only put down to excessive teenage drinking knowledge. So my body intervenes and sends me to sleep first - and can go on the wagon for weeks without it bothering me. It must be horrible to be unable to resist the ski-slope addiction some experience with just one even years later.
May I recommend a mug of hot water with at least a spoon of sugar in it.
It will give you a little chirp up and won't kick start your stomach or rest of your body into something unpleasant. Then have another one. Then a banana or something similarly bland. That'll stop you feeling so spaced out.
I used to get evil hangovers [it took me two days to recover from Charlie's wedding to Di] - then somehow I crossed the plonk barrier and very rarely get them or helicopters. And never ill no matter how much is glugged.
Good luck and my sympathies. Oh - and if you've a sore head - drink lots and lots of water. I don't know how it works - but it will somehow wash out the pounding/karate chopped neck.
FPT: Mr. Royale, even *I* [who hardly ever drinks] know that happens! Your comment reminds me a bit of Sir Edric, or a skit I wrote somewhere or other about a Viking waking up with a headache after drinking his own weight in mead, and reaching the inevitable conclusion Saxon sorcery was to blame.
Have some food and drink some water.
I never learn my lesson, do I?
Didn't order any food at the pub. Didn't feel like any at the station. Hungry when I got back home, but nothing in the fridge or freezer. And by then all the takeaways had closed.
Cue giving up and going straight to bed, hoping I'd feel better in the morning.
I don't.
Hair of the dog! May I recommend Guinness on cornflakes?
(This is not a prescription to be taken regularly, but suits occasional lazy mornings after the night before. It is when you can drink 5 pints and feel no ill effects that you are drinking too much)
I think after the Lib Dems got beaten into fifth place by the Bus Pass Elvis party they lost all credibility.
That was at a local by-election and as you say, even that caused much embarrassment / laughter (depending on which side, if any, you support). But were it to happen at a Westminster by-election, that would be a different matter altogether. It would be the sort of event that consistently gets referenced in the popular media, HIGNFY and so on, and does serious and lasting damage to the image of a party which is already struggling.
This is getting tedious David. I would have voted Tory in Rochester on Thursday to keep UKIP out. This is what you get with first past the past and your repeated posts don't appear to comprehend how the electoral system works.
Some of our more excitable PBers and media commentaterate need a heavy dose of reality - it was a by-election you plonkers !!
Nigel Farage Will Never Be Prime Minister
Just could, though, and the thought gives me the shudders, be king-maker.
A tad difficult to be kingmaker with only a handful of seats.
More likely for Salmond to be kingmaker.
I think a Con minority government the most likely outcome. I cannot see any party entering formal coalition with either Labour or Conservatives after seeing what has happened to the Libdems.
It is only when we experience minority government that people will see that the LD/Con coalition was a golden era of sane government.
Absolutely not.
The SNP will not put the Conservatives in power at any price and a weak minority government will put the economic recovery at risk.
It comes down to bums on seats but a broadly a Con/LibDem Coalition MkII looks likely as the latest ARSE indicates.
Ed Miliband will resign a day or so after the general election and Farage MP will be highly animated at his failure to garner more than half a dozen MPs at the outside. The SNP will have more than doubled their seats but to little Westminster effect and the irony of FPTP coming to the aid of the LibDems will see Nick Clegg laughing all the way to the Deputy PM's office.
Funny old world.
The SNP would not support a Tory government, but would they support a Miliband one?.
Sturgeon said yes provided they got Devo ultra and moved Trident. That'll go down a treat with White Van Man (but may wash in London Labour, where half the members are.....)
Usual southern centric bollox, loony southern party with 2 defectors in parliament is supposed to be big news. Shows how poor and pathetic Tories and Labour are when these half wits have them scared.
What did you think of Sturgeon's cabinet appointments? I posted the results yesterday but not much interest.
seems reasonable pick, just got rid of a few old duffers and promoted some capable women. Will be interesting to see the outcome , her initial tone was very inclusive and will be interesting to see if the other parties (Tories )can get over their bitterness and try to work with her. Lib dems are goners and Labour are too stupid to do anything sensible. I have not been impressed at all by Davidson so far and so will be interesting to see how she plays it. Labour getting crushed can only help the Tories.
Where do you think SLAB's travails will help the Tartan Tories the most? And, what about Davidson so 'unimpresses' you?
I have yet to see her have any original thought, she really is just a puppet of London. She got in by the back door and to me is just a toady. Has fallen into the same mode as Labour and just follows the "SNP bad" routine. You never hear the Tories coming up with anything that would be beneficial for Scotland or any utterance that maybe some of the London policies really are crap for us. They are happy just to be hangers on, a completely talentless set of muppets. I cannot think of any Scottish Tory that I could say was a decent person who had any interest whatsoever in Scotland, they are that bad.
Davidson has seen off loser Salmond and she"ll see the back of Sturgeon.
This is one of the most thoughtful and incisive threads of the year, David. It won't endear you to UKIP but it is a brilliant piece that will repay careful consideration.
I have nothing useful to add. I don't think anyone else has either.
speak for yourself I have added wit and gravitas to enhance David's piece , by the bucketful.
You have a bit better chance being 500 miles away rather than a few miles, hence it is nowhere near London, that was not by chance.
Poor, very poor. London is surrounded by first strike targets if not being one itself. From memory capital cities are themselves not first strike targets because who do you have left to negotiate with?
Maybe UKIP are correct and we in the UK are going to versions of USA Identity politics.
In America there has been arguments that the democrats should try to represent the southern confederate flag pick-up truck voters.
However Obama did not win that way. Or as now with his new extensive reshaping of the nation’s immigration system seems to be far away from the so called white trash vote agenda.
I think Obama's executive action on immigration is one of the two biggest mistakes of his presidency.
Usual southern centric bollox, loony southern party with 2 defectors in parliament is supposed to be big news. Shows how poor and pathetic Tories and Labour are when these half wits have them scared.
What did you think of Sturgeon's cabinet appointments? I posted the results yesterday but not much interest.
seems reasonable pick, just got rid of a few old duffers and promoted some capable women. Will be interesting to see the outcome , her initial tone was very inclusive and will be interesting to see if the other parties (Tories )can get over their bitterness and try to work with her. Lib dems are goners and Labour are too stupid to do anything sensible. I have not been impressed at all by Davidson so far and so will be interesting to see how she plays it. Labour getting crushed can only help the Tories.
Where do you think SLAB's travails will help the Tartan Tories the most? And, what about Davidson so 'unimpresses' you?
I have yet to see her have any original thought, she really is just a puppet of London. She got in by the back door and to me is just a toady. Has fallen into the same mode as Labour and just follows the "SNP bad" routine. You never hear the Tories coming up with anything that would be beneficial for Scotland or any utterance that maybe some of the London policies really are crap for us. They are happy just to be hangers on, a completely talentless set of muppets. I cannot think of any Scottish Tory that I could say was a decent person who had any interest whatsoever in Scotland, they are that bad.
Thanks; it's hard to get a clear picture when you only listen to your own side. Are there specific constituencies where a sharp Labour fall would most help the Conservatives?
This is one of the most thoughtful and incisive threads of the year, David. It won't endear you to UKIP but it is a brilliant piece that will repay careful consideration.
I have nothing useful to add. I don't think anyone else has either.
speak for yourself I have added wit and gravitas to enhance David's piece , by the bucketful.
Scrapping Trident would not be unpopular. Even some ex-military friends would be quite happy to see it scrapped in favour of keeping more front line ships, soldiers and planes.
Indeed, but the chances of money like that staying in the defense budget are remote, if they scrapped trident that money would (if we are lucky) pay of some deficit, although the record of doing that isnt good, or more likely disappear into the welfare budget or the health budget, where it would hardly make a ripple.
At a time of Russian resurgence the UK would be mad to scrap it's deterrent.
The Russian navy would park off the Firth of Moray and sit there as a malevolent shadow over the British Govt.
Trident is a weapon designed for cold war Mutual Assured Destruction. The idea is now as obsolete as cavalry. It is designed to be concealed in the deepest ocean to retaliate by laying waste to all the cities of our enemy. Flattening cities does seem a little old school nowadays surely?
The Russians off Moray would be more deterred by having some planes on the UK carriers, and IS could be taken out by cruise missiles much more effectively than 256 MIRV Trident warheads.
Having the ability to turn your opponents capital city into a radioactive hole in the ground at five minutes notice, courtesy of the Royal Navy, dosen't do us any harm when dealing with the likes of Russia and China. To quote Nye Bevan at the 1957 Labour Conference, unilateral nuclear disarmament "would send a British Foreign Secretary naked into the conference-chamber"
Deluded , the Russians and Chinese piss them selves laughing at the UK. They are doing it the easy way and buying the country.
That might well be true on one level. However, laughter often covers fear.
While not trying to pretend that the UK is a great power why If the UK is such an unimportant player on the world stage do they even bother laughing at us?
Edit I spent some time in China. No one laughed, quite the contrary, everyone wanted to talk.
Bob, the UK could not fight their way out of a wet paper poke. Some sense of reality is needed in this country, we are no longer a power never mind a world power. We would struggle to invade Monaco.
Some of our more excitable PBers and media commentaterate need a heavy dose of reality - it was a by-election you plonkers !!
Nigel Farage Will Never Be Prime Minister
Just could, though, and the thought gives me the shudders, be king-maker.
A tad difficult to be kingmaker with only a handful of seats.
More likely for Salmond to be kingmaker.
I think a Con minority government the most likely outcome. I cannot see any party entering formal coalition with either Labour or Conservatives after seeing what has happened to the Libdems.
It is only when we experience minority government that people will see that the LD/Con coalition was a golden era of sane government.
Absolutely not.
The SNP will not put the Conservatives in power at any price and a weak minority government will put the economic recovery at risk.
It comes down to bums on seats but a broadly a Con/LibDem Coalition MkII looks likely as the latest ARSE indicates.
Ed Miliband will resign a day or so after the general election and Farage MP will be highly animated at his failure to garner more than half a dozen MPs at the outside. The SNP will have more than doubled their seats but to little Westminster effect and the irony of FPTP coming to the aid of the LibDems will see Nick Clegg laughing all the way to the Deputy PM's office.
Funny old world.
The SNP would not support a Tory government, but would they support a Miliband one?.
Sturgeon said yes provided they got Devo ultra and moved Trident. That'll go down a treat with White Van Man (but may wash in London Labour, where half the members are.....)
Only in certain areas and certainly not where people are cursed by having it on their doorstep.
No.
Scotland:
Trident Replacement: 16 Cheaper Deterrent: 35 No Nukes: 40
So a majority in Scotland are still in favour of a nuclear deterrent......
the cheaper deterrent would not be parked outside Glasgow though ( probably would actually ).
It would - for brevity I omitted the full details but the "cheaper deterrent" was 2 subs vs 4. While the Scots clearly are the most anti-nuke, it's still a minority view in Scotland.
Miss Plato, the bad second response (anti-Islington prejudice apparently mentioned) of Thornberry aside, I think there's been a dramatic over-reaction to her tweet.
Not a Thornberry fan. Patronising and smug, and shan't be missed, but the manner of her departure is not great. To an extent, Labour have been hoist by their petard, given the shrieking over-reaction to UKIP having a policy not in the little Guardian book of permissible opinions included nonsense like 'euracism'.
You can't shriek like a banshee then complain the neighbours are being too loud.
Correct Morris.
Talk about an over reaction to a tweet.
In the real world banking fraud goes on and on and no one is charged with any offence. The debt rises beyond anyone's comprehension. Interest rates have been nearly zero for six years. Quantitative easing never ends. Japan has tried all this and never mind a lost decade , it is a lost generation. We will be following them.
Miss Plato, the bad second response (anti-Islington prejudice apparently mentioned) of Thornberry aside, I think there's been a dramatic over-reaction to her tweet.
Not a Thornberry fan. Patronising and smug, and shan't be missed, but the manner of her departure is not great. To an extent, Labour have been hoist by their petard, given the shrieking over-reaction to UKIP having a policy not in the little Guardian book of permissible opinions included nonsense like 'euracism'.
You can't shriek like a banshee then complain the neighbours are being too loud.
Correct Morris.
Talk about an over reaction to a tweet.
In the real world banking fraud goes on and on and no one is charged with any offence. The debt rises beyond anyone's comprehension. Interest rates have been nearly zero for six years. Quantitative easing never ends. Japan has tried all this and never mind a lost decade , it is a lost generation. We will be following them.
EdM's overreaction to Thornberry's humorous tweet was deranged, he's absolutely unfit to be PM.
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
I think after the Lib Dems got beaten into fifth place by the Bus Pass Elvis party they lost all credibility.
That was at a local by-election and as you say, even that caused much embarrassment / laughter (depending on which side, if any, you support). But were it to happen at a Westminster by-election, that would be a different matter altogether. It would be the sort of event that consistently gets referenced in the popular media, HIGNFY and so on, and does serious and lasting damage to the image of a party which is already struggling.
This is getting tedious David. I would have voted Tory in Rochester on Thursday to keep UKIP out. This is what you get with first past the past and your repeated posts don't appear to comprehend how the electoral system works.
Rather sour, Mike, against one of our best thread providers! Bear with a sore head after DDs?
I think it will be the LibDems who don't comprehend how the electoral system works next May "But...but...but...INCUMBENCY????"
Scrapping Trident would not be unpopular. Even some ex-military friends would be quite happy to see it scrapped in favour of keeping more front line ships, soldiers and planes.
Indeed, but the chances of money like that staying in the defense budget are remote, if they scrapped trident that money would (if we are lucky) pay of some deficit, although the record of doing that isnt good, or more likely disappear into the welfare budget or the health budget, where it would hardly make a ripple.
At a time of Russian resurgence the UK would be mad to scrap it's deterrent.
The Russian navy would park off the Firth of Moray and sit there as a malevolent shadow over the British Govt.
Trident is a weapon designed for cold war Mutual Assured Destruction. The idea is now as obsolete as cavalry. It is designed to be concealed in the deepest ocean to retaliate by laying waste to all the cities of our enemy. Flattening cities does seem a little old school nowadays surely?
The Russians off Moray would be more deterred by having some planes on the UK carriers, and IS could be taken out by cruise missiles much more effectively than 256 MIRV Trident warheads.
Having the ability to turn your opponents capital city into a radioactive hole in the ground at five minutes notice, courtesy of the Royal Navy, dosen't do us any harm when dealing with the likes of Russia and China. To quote Nye Bevan at the 1957 Labour Conference, unilateral nuclear disarmament "would send a British Foreign Secretary naked into the conference-chamber"
Deluded , the Russians and Chinese piss them selves laughing at the UK. They are doing it the easy way and buying the country.
That might well be true on one level. However, laughter often covers fear.
While not trying to pretend that the UK is a great power why If the UK is such an unimportant player on the world stage do they even bother laughing at us?
Edit I spent some time in China. No one laughed, quite the contrary, everyone wanted to talk.
Bob, the UK could not fight their way out of a wet paper poke. Some sense of reality is needed in this country, we are no longer a power never mind a world power. We would struggle to invade Monaco.
At this point I get to recite one of my favourite observations picked up and used by some retired staff officer pontificating on Sky News.
'The thing about the English (and the Scots, Welsh and Irish) is that they like fighting.'
Usual southern centric bollox, loony southern party with 2 defectors in parliament is supposed to be big news. Shows how poor and pathetic Tories and Labour are when these half wits have them scared.
What did you think of Sturgeon's cabinet appointments? I posted the results yesterday but not much interest.
seems reasonable pick, just got rid of a few old duffers and promoted some capable women. Will be interesting to see the outcome , her initial tone was very inclusive and will be interesting to see if the other parties (Tories )can get over their bitterness and try to work with her. Lib dems are goners and Labour are too stupid to do anything sensible. I have not been impressed at all by Davidson so far and so will be interesting to see how she plays it. Labour getting crushed can only help the Tories.
Where do you think SLAB's travails will help the Tartan Tories the most? And, what about Davidson so 'unimpresses' you?
I have yet to see her have any original thought, she really is just a puppet of London. She got in by the back door and to me is just a toady. Has fallen into the same mode as Labour and just follows the "SNP bad" routine. You never hear the Tories coming up with anything that would be beneficial for Scotland or any utterance that maybe some of the London policies really are crap for us. They are happy just to be hangers on, a completely talentless set of muppets. I cannot think of any Scottish Tory that I could say was a decent person who had any interest whatsoever in Scotland, they are that bad.
Thanks; it's hard to get a clear picture when you only listen to your own side. Are there specific constituencies where a sharp Labour fall would most help the Conservatives?
Baskerville I am afraid I am not into it in that detail but there must be some opportunities where the Tories will get a shout , most will go to SNP but the borders area and a few parts up North that used to be solid Tory must be hopeful. However I would struggle to name any more than 3 Tories , Davidson due to being leader, Mundell as only MP and useless and Johnstone who is an obnoxious odious MSP. That excludes our 3 resident Tories , royalist Easterross , surgist Fitalaff and deluded unionist Davidl, two of whom at least would be far better than the party hacks.
I would be interested in PBers comments on the similarity of the geography of poorly performing hospitals (as measured by death rates) and UKIP prospects.
The match is not perfect (Lowestoft has good figures for example) but it is surprisingly good.
My hypothesis is that these areas are neglected by central government, and are unfashionable places to work, so not chosen by top class staff. The experience of poor NHS services certainly seems to have been a major issue in both Clacton and Rochester, based on the visible campaigns.
It perhaps merits looking at UKIP prospects for betting purposes at places like Crewe or Nuneaton with alarming figures.
Miss Plato, the bad second response (anti-Islington prejudice apparently mentioned) of Thornberry aside, I think there's been a dramatic over-reaction to her tweet.
Not a Thornberry fan. Patronising and smug, and shan't be missed, but the manner of her departure is not great. To an extent, Labour have been hoist by their petard, given the shrieking over-reaction to UKIP having a policy not in the little Guardian book of permissible opinions included nonsense like 'euracism'.
You can't shriek like a banshee then complain the neighbours are being too loud.
Correct Morris.
Talk about an over reaction to a tweet.
In the real world banking fraud goes on and on and no one is charged with any offence. The debt rises beyond anyone's comprehension. Interest rates have been nearly zero for six years. Quantitative easing never ends. Japan has tried all this and never mind a lost decade , it is a lost generation. We will be following them.
The creation of deafening noise around trivial events has been a standard US and especially Republican campaigning tactic for the last 20 years. Probably it's a result of the internet enabling righteous (or indeed not so righteous) indignation to be vented.
Anything to divert people's attention from the real problems they face.
FPT.Having just flicked through this thread and following the zeitgeist of white van man and his flags I couldn't help but notice that some on here now think the Tory lady from Rochester was the ideal choice and it was just the champagne socialist snobs and yound Tory zealots who couldn't see it.
Well I'm sorry but she came accross as a sneering half cooked moron. I understand that someone from the highlands might not understand the nuances of English accents but there is no excuse for anyone else.
In advertising there are very specific voices and accents which people use for particular products. Seductive trustworthy honest dishonest sharp stupid simple etc etc. It is something that is understood by our subconscious. Anyone wanting to sell insurance for example is not going to seek out Kelly Tolhurst but might well use the soft Edinburgh accent of Alastaire Darling.
So enough of this inverted snobbery. Ed's was crass enough yesterday but let's not make ourselves look ridiculous by following him.
This really is No way to be going into election mode. They can't keep him and yet? They can't dump him. How on earth did Labour end up losing the working class vote to a righter than Right wing party?
Daily Telegraph
One Labour insider said: “The whole party is incredibly depressed. We’re being run by a group of North London MPs who are totally detached from reality, who have never worked in the real world and have more in common with the Liberal Democrats than working-class voters.”
If there own party are saving this openly now when the pressure comes on during the GE can you just imagine the door step conversations. " you don't support him why should we? " it will as come down to the "postal votes" that will put Miliband in No10
Some of our more excitable PBers and media commentaterate need a heavy dose of reality - it was a by-election you plonkers !!
Nigel Farage Will Never Be Prime Minister
Just could, though, and the thought gives me the shudders, be king-maker.
A tad difficult to be kingmaker with only a handful of seats.
Westminster effect and the irony of FPTP coming to the aid of the LibDems will see Nick Clegg laughing all the way to the Deputy PM's office.
Funny old world.
The SNP would not support a Tory government, but would they support a Miliband one?.
Sturgeon said yes provided they got Devo ultra and moved Trident. That'll go down a treat with White Van Man (but may wash in London Labour, where half the members are.....)
Only in certain areas and certainly not where people are cursed by having it on their doorstep.
No.
Scotland:
Trident Replacement: 16 Cheaper Deterrent: 35 No Nukes: 40
So a majority in Scotland are still in favour of a nuclear deterrent......
the cheaper deterrent would not be parked outside Glasgow though ( probably would actually ).
It would - for brevity I omitted the full details but the "cheaper deterrent" was 2 subs vs 4. While the Scots clearly are the most anti-nuke, it's still a minority view in Scotland.
Not often I am right , but wrong again. I have to go and buy lots of rolls and square sausage , get this hangover sorted.
"Whitevangate is now turning into a political catastrophe for Milliband and Labour 4 days on and still running ...."
That is nothing. Plebgate is still running after 2 years.
Whitevangate and Plebgate are very similar, in that any offence that Mitchell or Thornbury gave should have been remedied by a simple apology. End of. It is the toxic whiff of snobbery that has given both stories enormous mileage.
Plebgate was fanned by New International, the Labour Party (& the Police Federation)
Whitevangate was fanned by News International and the Labour Party.
It is the fact that the Labour handling of the media has been so inept that is the real cause for concern. There is ample pointers that this is going to come under real strain in the General Election.
Scrapping Trident would not be unpopular. Even some ex-military friends would be quite happy to see it scrapped in favour of keeping more front line ships, soldiers and planes.
At a time of Russian resurgence the UK would be mad to scrap it's deterrent.
The Russian navy would park off the Firth of Moray and sit there as a malevolent shadow over the British Govt.
Trident is a weapon designed for cold war Mutual Assured Destruction. The idea is now as obsolete as cavalry. It is designed to be concealed in the deepest ocean to retaliate by laying waste to all the cities of our enemy. Flattening cities does seem a little old school nowadays surely?
The Russians off Moray would be more deterred by having some planes on the UK carriers, and IS could be taken out by cruise missiles much more effectively than 256 MIRV Trident warheads.
Having the ability to turn your opponents capital city into a radioactive hole in the ground at five minutes notice, courtesy of the Royal Navy, dosen't do us any harm when dealing with the likes of Russia and China. To quote Nye Bevan at the 1957 Labour Conference, unilateral nuclear disarmament "would send a British Foreign Secretary naked into the conference-chamber"
Deluded , the Russians and Chinese piss them selves laughing at the UK. They are doing it the easy way and buying the country.
That might well be true on one level. However, laughter often covers fear.
While not trying to pretend that the UK is a great power why If the UK is such an unimportant player on the world stage do they even bother laughing at us?
Edit I spent some time in China. No one laughed, quite the contrary, everyone wanted to talk.
Bob, the UK could not fight their way out of a wet paper poke. Some sense of reality is needed in this country, we are no longer a power never mind a world power. We would struggle to invade Monaco.
At this point I get to recite one of my favourite observations picked up and used by some retired staff officer pontificating on Sky News.
'The thing about the English (and the Scots, Welsh and Irish) is that they like fighting.'
Yes but we are at the punch drunk stage now, time to get real.
FPT.Having just flicked through this thread and following the zeitgeist of white van man and his flags I couldn't help but notice that some on here now think the Tory lady from Rochester was the ideal choice and it was just the champagne socialist snobs and yound Tory zealots who couldn't see it.
Well I'm sorry but she came accross as a sneering half cooked moron. I understand that someone from the highlands might not understand the nuances of English accents but there is no excuse for anyone else.
In advertising there are very specific voices and accents which people use for particular products. Seductive trustworthy honest dishonest sharp stupid simple etc etc. It is something that is understood by our subconscious. Anyone wanting to sell insurance for example is not going to seek out Kelly Tolhurst but might well use the soft Edinburgh accent of Alastaire Darling.
So enough of this inverted snobbery. Ed's was crass enough yesterday but let's not make ourselves look ridiculous by following him.
Darling does not have an Edinburgh accent , are you soft in the head.
Mr. Cwsc, that's a completely invalid comparison. The actions of the so-called plebgate incident are disputed in a court of law, nobody's denying the tweet of Thornberry.
Miss Plato, the bad second response (anti-Islington prejudice apparently mentioned) of Thornberry aside, I think there's been a dramatic over-reaction to her tweet.
Not a Thornberry fan. Patronising and smug, and shan't be missed, but the manner of her departure is not great. To an extent, Labour have been hoist by their petard, given the shrieking over-reaction to UKIP having a policy not in the little Guardian book of permissible opinions included nonsense like 'euracism'.
You can't shriek like a banshee then complain the neighbours are being too loud.
Correct Morris.
Talk about an over reaction to a tweet.
In the real world banking fraud goes on and on and no one is charged with any offence. The debt rises beyond anyone's comprehension. Interest rates have been nearly zero for six years. Quantitative easing never ends. Japan has tried all this and never mind a lost decade , it is a lost generation. We will be following them.
"Whitevangate is now turning into a political catastrophe for Milliband and Labour 4 days on and still running ...."
That is nothing. Plebgate is still running after 2 years.
Whitevangate and Plebgate are very similar, in that any offence that Mitchell or Thornbury gave should have been remedied by a simple apology. End of. It is the toxic whiff of snobbery that has given both stories enormous mileage.
Plebgate was fanned by New International, the Labour Party (& the Police Federation)
Whitevangate was fanned by News International and the Labour Party.
It is the fact that the Labour handling of the media has been so inept that is the real cause for concern. There is ample pointers that this is going to come under real strain in the General Election.
Of course one difference between the stories was that one was true and the other was a pack of lies invented by a bitter cabal of union reps.
''At that election, the Loonies won 418 votes; in Rochester, the Lib Dems won 349.''
But in the general election will Conservaives and Labourites vote LD to stop UKIP where the LDs hold a seat? If there is an unofficial pact that coalition parners do not contest each other where they hold a seat then the LD seat count might well hold up. They could of course take it further where they are the best challenger to Labour. Now that the supposed, alleged, boil of nasty right wing extremism has been sucked out by UKIP, who are keen to put socialist after theit nationalist tag, then voters can see a clear point to voting Tory. A general election is a totally different thing to where you have a by election with a defector who is still esentially a different flavour of tory.
"Whitevangate is now turning into a political catastrophe for Milliband and Labour 4 days on and still running ...."
That is nothing. Plebgate is still running after 2 years.
Whitevangate and Plebgate are very similar, in that any offence that Mitchell or Thornbury gave should have been remedied by a simple apology. End of. It is the toxic whiff of snobbery that has given both stories enormous mileage.
Plebgate was fanned by New International, the Labour Party (& the Police Federation)
Whitevangate was fanned by News International and the Labour Party.
It is the fact that the Labour handling of the media has been so inept that is the real cause for concern. There is ample pointers that this is going to come under real strain in the General Election.
Similar perhaps...indeed a good point with one exception. I don't recollect Cameron standing in front of a mic and stating he respected flashy police cars or canine unit transportation vans? :-)
In the community where I am currently living, over the last five years, there has been an increasing number of people who have moved from employment to self-employment, either as sole traders or a limited company. (Hence some of GO's current problems).
These are a mix of electricians, plumbers, small builders and IT people. All require their own transport of sorts (usually a van/estate car) as public transport is sparse.
I have been privileged to have been able to help these people (always free of charge) to set up their own business, train them (and often their wife/partner) to do their own accounts, VAT and HMRC returns, get bank overdrafts and loans etc. All have been successful and many are now employers as their business has grown.
As I have got to know them more, it has become apparent that they have certain characteristics. All are proud of their skills and of doing a good job for their clients. They are quite contemptuous of the low standards and expectations they see in the local schools, NHS and Councils.
How do they vote, well certainly not Labour (in power) or LD and my feeling is they are part of the DNV - but could well support UKIP in 2015.
Maybe UKIP are correct and we in the UK are going to versions of USA Identity politics.
In America there has been arguments that the democrats should try to represent the southern confederate flag pick-up truck voters.
However Obama did not win that way. Or as now with his new extensive reshaping of the nation’s immigration system seems to be far away from the so called white trash vote agenda.
I think Obama's executive action on immigration is one of the two biggest mistakes of his presidency.
His argument seems to be that the GOP leadership "wouldn't allow a vote on it" and "that's not how democracy works".
Rule by executive fiat doesn't seem very democratic either!
I hope the GOP sticks to criticising the method rather than the substance though, at least at this point
Congrats to UKIP for winning R&S. Is there any Tory seat safe from attack now? Labour may not be surging ahead but the Tories are in total disarray - Not that you would know that from reading the usual BS from the nasty Tory trolls on here.
Ed Milliband still on course to be PM - though it's getting closer by the day.
I have said it before and unfortunately have to say it again... some of those who don't like UKIP on here have called "peak kipper" several times already... they are people who keep on short selling a stock that keeps going up... in real life they would have gone skint by now, but as there is no downside to constant repetition of selling "peak kipper" they keep doing it and pretend they hadn't said it before.
Its like selling the spread on goals on in a football match everytime a goal goes in. When its 5-3 and you go in to sell again, its time to think your original goals quote was too low
Scrapping Trident would not be unpopular. Even some ex-military friends would be quite happy to see it scrapped in favour of keeping more front line ships, soldiers and planes.
Indeed, but the chances of money like that staying in the defense budget are remote, if they scrapped trident that money would (if we are lucky) pay of some deficit, although the record of doing that isnt good, or more likely disappear into the welfare budget or the health budget, where it would hardly make a ripple.
At a time of Russian resurgence the UK would be mad to scrap it's deterrent.
The Russian navy would park off the Firth of Moray and sit there as a malevolent shadow over the British Govt.
The Russians off Moray would be more deterred by having some planes on the UK carriers, and IS could be taken out by cruise missiles much more effectively than 256 MIRV Trident warheads.
Having the ability to turn your opponents capital city into a radioactive hole in the ground at five minutes notice, courtesy of the Royal Navy, dosen't do us any harm when dealing with the likes of Russia and China. To quote Nye Bevan at the 1957 Labour Conference, unilateral nuclear disarmament "would send a British Foreign Secretary naked into the conference-chamber"
Deluded , the Russians and Chinese piss them selves laughing at the UK. They are doing it the easy way and buying the country.
That might well be true on one level. However, laughter often covers fear.
While not trying to pretend that the UK is a great power why If the UK is such an unimportant player on the world stage do they even bother laughing at us?
Edit I spent some time in China. No one laughed, quite the contrary, everyone wanted to talk.
Bob, the UK could not fight their way out of a wet paper poke. Some sense of reality is needed in this country, we are no longer a power never mind a world power. We would struggle to invade Monaco.
At this point I get to recite one of my favourite observations picked up and used by some retired staff officer pontificating on Sky News.
'The thing about the English (and the Scots, Welsh and Irish) is that they like fighting.'
A very astute observation by that man! We Brits believe we are peace-loving, but if you ask foreigners they see us differently.
@Morris_Dancer There's a lovely snippet in the opening credits of Homeland when someone says "You can't keep snakes in your backyard and expect them to only bite your neighbours"
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
Miss Plato, the bad second response (anti-Islington prejudice apparently mentioned) of Thornberry aside, I think there's been a dramatic over-reaction to her tweet.
Not a Thornberry fan. Patronising and smug, and shan't be missed, but the manner of her departure is not great. To an extent, Labour have been hoist by their petard, given the shrieking over-reaction to UKIP having a policy not in the little Guardian book of permissible opinions included nonsense like 'euracism'.
You can't shriek like a banshee then complain the neighbours are being too loud.
Correct Morris.
Talk about an over reaction to a tweet.
In the real world banking fraud goes on and on and no one is charged with any offence. The debt rises beyond anyone's comprehension. Interest rates have been nearly zero for six years. Quantitative easing never ends. Japan has tried all this and never mind a lost decade , it is a lost generation. We will be following them.
EdM's overreaction to Thornberry's humorous tweet was deranged, he's absolutely unfit to be PM.
But it was the kipperati taking yet another opportunity to give us their dog whistle about the 'WWC' who went ballistic. If Ed had a brain he would have reacted to that.
Thornberry is a fool - I don't need tweets to tell me that.
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
"The actions of the so-called plebgate incident are disputed in a court of law, nobody's denying the tweet of Thornberry."
Everyone accepts that Mitchell swore (Including AM). In my opinion, that is probably all he did. It was stupid to do, but we have all encountered jobsworths in the public sector, and have been similarly irritated.
Thornbury tweeted an ambiguous, but rather sneering, picture. In my opinion, that is all she did. It was stupid to do, but all of us have done something equally mocking.
These two incidents are completely trivial, and should have ended by Mitchell and Thornbury offering a private apology, and the individuals concerned accepting it. We are firing cabinet ministers for doing things that everyone does.
News International are clearly in he job of taking such incidents and making them into enormous publicity stunts.
Miss Plato, the bad second response (anti-Islington prejudice apparently mentioned) of Thornberry aside, I think there's been a dramatic over-reaction to her tweet.
Not a Thornberry fan. Patronising and smug, and shan't be missed, but the manner of her departure is not great. To an extent, Labour have been hoist by their petard, given the shrieking over-reaction to UKIP having a policy not in the little Guardian book of permissible opinions included nonsense like 'euracism'.
You can't shriek like a banshee then complain the neighbours are being too loud.
Correct Morris.
Talk about an over reaction to a tweet.
In the real world banking fraud goes on and on and no one is charged with any offence. The debt rises beyond anyone's comprehension. Interest rates have been nearly zero for six years. Quantitative easing never ends. Japan has tried all this and never mind a lost decade , it is a lost generation. We will be following them.
EdM's overreaction to Thornberry's humorous tweet was deranged, he's absolutely unfit to be PM.
I am not some anti Milliband person like some on here like jonny Jimmy because they say he looks weird etc. However his reaction to a tweet causes concern. Blair sacked Mandelson once in a media frenzy with out knowing the facts. Milliband needs to be more circumspect.
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
Trident... I see the usual lunatics are calling for it to be dismantled and the money saved to go to the NHS and increased welfare payments..They must never read the news..catch up time.
There is a Pyschopath in charge in the Kremlin ..who orders near over flights of the UK every day and is about to invade his neighbours. Ther is a large ..well armed, bunch of medieval savages rampaging through the middle east, trying to get their hands on some nuclear weapons..and vowing to use them ..to wipe us all out . If either group succeeds then there will not be an an NHS or any benefits of any kind to anyone.
So a good time to ditch our Nuclear deterrant...wowsa.
Maybe UKIP are correct and we in the UK are going to versions of USA Identity politics.
In America there has been arguments that the democrats should try to represent the southern confederate flag pick-up truck voters.
However Obama did not win that way. Or as now with his new extensive reshaping of the nation’s immigration system seems to be far away from the so called white trash vote agenda.
I think Obama's executive action on immigration is one of the two biggest mistakes of his presidency.
His argument seems to be that the GOP leadership "wouldn't allow a vote on it" and "that's not how democracy works".
Rule by executive fiat doesn't seem very democratic either!
I hope the GOP sticks to criticising the method rather than the substance though, at least at this point
On both the method and the substance, the GOP are on unfortunately weak ground, given both Bush and Reagan did similar things. Personally, I think Obama is wrong on both: law passed by the Congress should be enforced, and it only encourages further illegal immigration for amnesties to be granted every twenty years. It also seems very unfair that those waiting in Latin America and elsewhere are disadvantaged.
Given the complete failure of immigration law over many years, were I a Congressman I could have accepted some sort of amnesty in exchange for much tougher border control, the elimination of unskilled economic migration, much tighter family migration limits (i.e. only spouses and children), easier high skilled migration, and the prevention of categories where low income people often overstay. Unfortunately, the deal on the table in the last couple of years was written by a combination of Democratic self-serving politics and corporate interest in dirt cheap labour.
May I recommend a mug of hot water with at least a spoon of sugar in it.
It will give you a little chirp up and won't kick start your stomach or rest of your body into something unpleasant. Then have another one. Then a banana or something similarly bland. That'll stop you feeling so spaced out.
I used to get evil hangovers [it took me two days to recover from Charlie's wedding to Di] - then somehow I crossed the plonk barrier and very rarely get them or helicopters. And never ill no matter how much is glugged.
Good luck and my sympathies. Oh - and if you've a sore head - drink lots and lots of water. I don't know how it works - but it will somehow wash out the pounding/karate chopped neck.
FPT: Mr. Royale, even *I* [who hardly ever drinks] know that happens! Your comment reminds me a bit of Sir Edric, or a skit I wrote somewhere or other about a Viking waking up with a headache after drinking his own weight in mead, and reaching the inevitable conclusion Saxon sorcery was to blame.
Have some food and drink some water.
I never learn my lesson, do I?
Didn't order any food at the pub. Didn't feel like any at the station. Hungry when I got back home, but nothing in the fridge or freezer. And by then all the takeaways had closed.
Cue giving up and going straight to bed, hoping I'd feel better in the morning.
I don't.
Hair of the dog! May I recommend Guinness on cornflakes?
(This is not a prescription to be taken regularly, but suits occasional lazy mornings after the night before. It is when you can drink 5 pints and feel no ill effects that you are drinking too much)
Is that 5 pints with the cornflakes or the night before
Trident I see the usual lunatics are calling for it to be dismantled and the money saved to go to the NHS and increased welfare payments..They must never read the news..catch up time.
There is a Pyschopath in charge in the Kremlin ..who orders near over flights of the UK every day and is about to invade his neighbours. Ther is a large ..well armed, bunch of medieval savages rampaging through the middle east, trying to get their hands on some nuclear weapons..and vowing to use them ..to wipe us all out . If either group succeeds then there will not be an an NHS or any benefits of any kind to anyone.
So a good time to ditch our Nuclear deterrant...wowsa.
Not quite. I advocated scrapping Trident and spending the money on frontline ships, planes and troops, all rather more effective deterrents against the foes you describe.
Trident... I see the usual lunatics are calling for it to be dismantled and the money saved to go to the NHS and increased welfare payments..They must never read the news..catch up time.
There is a Pyschopath in charge in the Kremlin ..who orders near over flights of the UK every day and is about to invade his neighbours. Ther is a large ..well armed, bunch of medieval savages rampaging through the middle east, trying to get their hands on some nuclear weapons..and vowing to use them ..to wipe us all out . If either group succeeds then there will not be an an NHS or any benefits of any kind to anyone.
So a good time to ditch our Nuclear deterrant...wowsa.
Am sure Putin was gutted to see YES lose the referendum - probably hates to see his money go to waste.
Oh another thread on why UKIP will fail to grow and has lost momentum, this time by the esteemed David Herdson.
I wonder if this is because all these purveyors of gloom for UKIP, are subconsciously content for Britain to be a star on the EU flag and can live happily with their country being run by second and third rate politicians. In fact thats how most of them make their living.
Some of our more excitable PBers and media commentaterate need a heavy dose of reality - it was a by-election you plonkers !!
Nigel Farage Will Never Be Prime Minister
Just could, though, and the thought gives me the shudders, be king-maker.
A tad difficult to be kingmaker with only a handful of seats.
More likely for Salmond to be kingmaker.
I think a Con minority government the most likely outcome. I cannot see any party entering formal coalition with either Labour or Conservatives after seeing what has happened to the Libdems.
It is only when we experience minority government that people will see that the LD/Con coalition was a golden era of sane government.
Absolutely not.
The SNP will not put the Conservatives in power at any price and a weak minority government will put the economic recovery at risk.
It comes down to bums on seats but a broadly a Con/LibDem Coalition MkII looks likely as the latest ARSE indicates.
Ed Miliband will resign a day or so after the general election and Farage MP will be highly animated at his failure to garner more than half a dozen MPs at the outside. The SNP will have more than doubled their seats but to little Westminster effect and the irony of FPTP coming to the aid of the LibDems will see Nick Clegg laughing all the way to the Deputy PM's office.
Funny old world.
The SNP would not support a Tory government, but would they support a Miliband one?.
Sturgeon said yes provided they got Devo ultra and moved Trident. That'll go down a treat with White Van Man (but may wash in London Labour, where half the members are.....)
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
Trident I see the usual lunatics are calling for it to be dismantled and the money saved to go to the NHS and increased welfare payments..They must never read the news..catch up time.
There is a Pyschopath in charge in the Kremlin ..who orders near over flights of the UK every day and is about to invade his neighbours. Ther is a large ..well armed, bunch of medieval savages rampaging through the middle east, trying to get their hands on some nuclear weapons..and vowing to use them ..to wipe us all out . If either group succeeds then there will not be an an NHS or any benefits of any kind to anyone.
So a good time to ditch our Nuclear deterrant...wowsa.
Not quite. I advocated scrapping Trident and spending the money on frontline ships, planes and troops, all rather more effective deterrents against the foes you describe.
Apart from that, spot on!
Dr Fox, do you get annoyed with self proclaimed medical experts? :-)
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
I remember saying UKIP were a significant threat on here five years ago and being much ridiculed by nearly all commenters. I now receive equal ridicule for saying fracking is totally underestimated both as a real threat to people's health and wellbeing across swathes of Britain (65% of the landmass) and its potential to swing votes. The other story being blanked on here and elsewhere is the rise of The Greens, where the left wing votes are heading, with fracking opposition the main reason. As I keep repeating, if UKIP would wake up to this threat/opportunity and oppose fracking/gas drilling near peoples' homes and businesses, they would finally break through to major party status. Will it take five years again for people to realise where politics is going? I hope not.
"The actions of the so-called plebgate incident are disputed in a court of law, nobody's denying the tweet of Thornberry."
Everyone accepts that Mitchell swore (Including AM). In my opinion, that is probably all he did. It was stupid to do, but we have all encountered jobsworths in the public sector, and have been similarly irritated.
Thornbury tweeted an ambiguous, but rather sneering, picture. In my opinion, that is all she did. It was stupid to do, but all of us have done something equally mocking.
These two incidents are completely trivial, and should have ended by Mitchell and Thornbury offering a private apology, and the individuals concerned accepting it. We are firing cabinet ministers for doing things that everyone does.
News International are clearly in he job of taking such incidents and making them into enormous publicity stunts.
On the Thornberry one, it would have been best dealt with by Ed Miliband releasing a statement saying :
"I have told Emily that the photo she tweeted was both unpleasant and out of line with the values of our party and our country. The English - as with the greater British nation they are part of - have much to be proud about in their heritage, and people showing their patriotism is a positive thing that this party welcomes. From our conversation, Emily seems to have understood why so many people took offence and appreciated why she was in the wrong. Given this was a first offence, I hope this can be the end of the matter."
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
To explain, you said "Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester " The link had Mike saying "Although UKIP looks a near certainty"
Does that make it clearer?
Oh it crossed my mind you might mean that, but I didn't think you could be that stupid
Insults rather than addressing the point, typical.
"Does that make it clearer?" wasn't an insult? It seemed rather patronising and smug, but maybe that's just your way
Mike said anything over 6/4 on the Tories was value, and right from the off advised backing against UKIP... He also constantly linked to polls that said UKIP might be in trouble... they won easily
He accepted defeat when they were 1/33 as you linked to, but so what?
I think after the Lib Dems got beaten into fifth place by the Bus Pass Elvis party they lost all credibility.
That was at a local by-election and as you say, even that caused much embarrassment / laughter (depending on which side, if any, you support). But were it to happen at a Westminster by-election, that would be a different matter altogether. It would be the sort of event that consistently gets referenced in the popular media, HIGNFY and so on, and does serious and lasting damage to the image of a party which is already struggling.
This is getting tedious David. I would have voted Tory in Rochester on Thursday to keep UKIP out. This is what you get with first past the past and your repeated posts don't appear to comprehend how the electoral system works.
OGH, David is right that if that had happened the Lib Dems would have been openly mocked. The reasons why LD 2010 voters went elsewhere, would be drowned out by the mocking.
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
To explain, you said "Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester " The link had Mike saying "Although UKIP looks a near certainty"
Does that make it clearer?
Oh it crossed my mind you might mean that, but I didn't think you could be that stupid
Insults rather than addressing the point, typical.
"Does that make it clearer?" wasn't an insult? It seemed rather patronising and smug, but maybe that's just your way
Mike said anything over 6/4 on the Tories was value, and right from the off advised backing against UKIP... he accepted defeat when they were 1/33 as you linked to, but so what?
No it wasn't an insult. It was a reaction to you saying 'What' after a quote from you and a link from Mike which completely refuted it. Mike saying a bet was 'value' is not the same as strongly tipping UKIP to lose, now is it?
"Nigel Farage is a phoney. There is a simple solution to everything that ails the United Kingdom: leave the European Union and, to all intents and purposes, close our borders. Then we shall enjoy a new Golden Age."
As someone based in London and Scotland, he completely fails to understand UKIP and their base as much as Matthew Parris does. Nobody in UKIP has ever said that all we need to do is leave the EU and end immigration. What we have said is that leaving the EU will give us the tools we need to make the necessary changes that will make a difference, and that moving from mass unfiltered immigration to limited, highly skilled immigration will really help us turn into a higher wage economy. The anti-UKIP brigade know they can't debate this actual argument and win, so they prefer to argue with a straw-man stereotype of the argument.
I think after the Lib Dems got beaten into fifth place by the Bus Pass Elvis party they lost all credibility.
That was at a local by-election and as you say, even that caused much embarrassment / laughter (depending on which side, if any, you support). But were it to happen at a Westminster by-election, that would be a different matter altogether. It would be the sort of event that consistently gets referenced in the popular media, HIGNFY and so on, and does serious and lasting damage to the image of a party which is already struggling.
This is getting tedious David. I would have voted Tory in Rochester on Thursday to keep UKIP out. This is what you get with first past the past and your repeated posts don't appear to comprehend how the electoral system works.
My view is that most people do not have strongly formed views and will find the most agreeable party to support them in voting against what they dislike or fear most. When Farage talks about attracting the labour vote he is after the nastiest most ignorant slice of that vote. He has stumbled into the easy comfort zone of whistling up the hate filled vote;
There is thankfully only a narow prejudiced minority who fall for UKIP. Voting Tory now does not mean that you risk voting for prejudiced bigots. What you do of course is vote for a party which will give you a referendum on the EU. Reading malcolmg we can see that the SNP is going the other way - falling back into unilateralist, loony left, old religion socialist prejudice.
PS - How strange is it that an admittedly thick labour shadow minister has resigned, but Farage can ally himself with a Polish neo nazi and of course one of his senior MEPs can hurl racial abuse at one of her own voters? All with impunity. I can imagine millions of people voting against UKIP.
I remember saying UKIP were a significant threat on here five years ago and being much ridiculed by nearly all commenters. I now receive equal ridicule for saying fracking is totally underestimated both as a real threat to people's health and wellbeing across swathes of Britain (65% of the landmass) and its potential to swing votes. The other story being blanked on here and elsewhere is the rise of The Greens, where the left wing votes are heading, with fracking opposition the main reason. As I keep repeating, if UKIP would wake up to this threat/opportunity and oppose fracking/gas drilling near peoples' homes and businesses, they would finally break through to major party status. Will it take five years again for people to realise where politics is going? I hope not.
'We' started it.
When I say 'we', of course I mean me on October the 13th.
"Whitevangate is now turning into a political catastrophe for Milliband and Labour 4 days on and still running ...."
That is nothing. Plebgate is still running after 2 years.
Whitevangate and Plebgate are very similar, in that any offence that Mitchell or Thornbury gave should have been remedied by a simple apology. End of. It is the toxic whiff of snobbery that has given both stories enormous mileage.
Plebgate was fanned by New International, the Labour Party (& the Police Federation)
Whitevangate was fanned by News International and the Labour Party.
It is the fact that the Labour handling of the media has been so inept that is the real cause for concern. There is ample pointers that this is going to come under real strain in the General Election.
It plays much worse for Labour because they are the ones that constantly bang on about PC issues and who claim (in the teeth of the evidence) to be the party of the working man. Even if if it were true, (which is strongly disputed) no one would be that surprised if Thrasher Mitchell (public school, tank regiment, banking) was a bit offhand with people, but a Labour MP, especially a Labour MP from "right-on" Islington and with a working class, council estate background is the very personification of someone that is meant to be in touch with ordinary people..
Threads like this make me wonder if like the day after the Scottish referendum humiliation and the disappearance of the NATS, May 2015, may see the disappearance of the kippers.
Reckless is quoted as saying, "Labour are party of public-sector privilege."
Ukip won in Rochester because the Labour Party now represents only the public sector elite, according to Mark Reckless......
He declared: ‘The radical tradition, which has stood and spoken for the working class, has found a new home in Ukip.
‘As Labour represents those comfortable at the top of the public sector, it is not Ed Miliband, but Ukip that represents the concerns of most working men and women.’
Will this have any impact in Labour heartlands that rely on public sector employment like the NE and S Wales?
It's a pretty bold attack line.
"The party of public sector privilege" when all the cuts are about the public sector finances.
Deficit figures show that it is pensions, including public sector ones, that Osborne can't get control of.
Then you have the alternative line to the cost of living crisis that on average we are getting wealthier, but it is those sitting in generous final salary pension schemes (mainly public sector) that are most profiting. Automatic, time served, pay progression still exists.
UKIP are going after the people that Labour have ignored.
Mr and Mrs Average who work in the private sector (83%), not the public one (17%).
They aren't multi millionaires (a few thousand people) , but they don't want handouts for empty bedrooms either (a few hundred thousand). They own their own home or are buying it, they drive rather than use state rail.
They are not part of a minority that is agitating for rights, but are part of a majority who are perhaps fed up with hearing about minority rights and having theirs diminished.
Trident I see the usual lunatics are calling for it to be dismantled and the money saved to go to the NHS and increased welfare payments..They must never read the news..catch up time.
There is a Pyschopath in charge in the Kremlin ..who orders near over flights of the UK every day and is about to invade his neighbours. Ther is a large ..well armed, bunch of medieval savages rampaging through the middle east, trying to get their hands on some nuclear weapons..and vowing to use them ..to wipe us all out . If either group succeeds then there will not be an an NHS or any benefits of any kind to anyone.
So a good time to ditch our Nuclear deterrant...wowsa.
Not quite. I advocated scrapping Trident and spending the money on frontline ships, planes and troops, all rather more effective deterrents against the foes you describe.
Apart from that, spot on!
Dr Fox, do you get annoyed with self proclaimed medical experts? :-)
Indeed I do! But patients who have consulted Dr Google are part of life now.
Thornberry might feel hard done by, but tweeting postal vote totals before personal voting started was a greater affront. Given that Kerry McCartney was also a lawyer she ought to have known better. She waz lucky to receive a caution. But ruthless Ed has still to sort out the festering mess in Rotherham.
How desperate could they be if Darling was a contender
You mean they're not desperate?
Re Reckless on Sky this morning. If it's to announce the defection of a Labour MP I'm going to look like the Seer of Peithagoras (and Mr Herdson is going to look very silly).
"Whitevangate is now turning into a political catastrophe for Milliband and Labour 4 days on and still running ...."
That is nothing. Plebgate is still running after 2 years.
Whitevangate and Plebgate are very similar, in that any offence that Mitchell or Thornbury gave should have been remedied by a simple apology. End of. It is the toxic whiff of snobbery that has given both stories enormous mileage.
Plebgate was fanned by New International, the Labour Party (& the Police Federation)
Whitevangate was fanned by News International and the Labour Party.
It is the fact that the Labour handling of the media has been so inept that is the real cause for concern. There is ample pointers that this is going to come under real strain in the General Election.
It plays much worse for Labour because they are the ones that constantly bang on about PC issues and who claim (in the teeth of the evidence) to be the party of the working man. Even if if it were true, (which is strongly disputed) no one would be that surprised if Thrasher Mitchell (public school, tank regiment, banking) was a bit offhand with people, but a Labour MP, especially a Labour MP from "right-on" Islington and with a working class, council estate background is the very personification of someone that is meant to be in touch with ordinary people..
Thornberry's claims to have grown up on a council estate are at odds with cut glass accent. I'd guess that she spent a couple of months of her childhood in council housing during some marital upheaval.
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
The main thing that Mike Smithson never mentions is that there was a 42% swing to UKIP from 0% in Rochester and Strood.
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
To explain, you said "Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester " The link had Mike saying "Although UKIP looks a near certainty"
Does that make it clearer?
Oh it crossed my mind you might mean that, but I didn't think you could be that stupid
Insults rather than addressing the point, typical.
"Does that make it clearer?" wasn't an insult? It seemed rather patronising and smug, but maybe that's just your way
Mike said anything over 6/4 on the Tories was value, and right from the off advised backing against UKIP... he accepted defeat when they were 1/33 as you linked to, but so what?
No it wasn't an insult. It was a reaction to you saying 'What' after a quote from you and a link from Mike which completely refuted it. Mike saying a bet was 'value' is not the same as strongly tipping UKIP to lose, now is it?
It didn't refute it in the slightest
"Mike saying a bet was 'value' is not the same as strongly tipping UKIP to lose, now is it?"
@BBCDouglasF: Radical Indy Campaign has gathered 3000 in Glasgow: launching 'People's Vow' against austerity, for nationalis'n, republic, enviro't #RIC
The party of public sector privilege" when all the cuts are about the public sector finances.
The fact remains that white van man is getting skinned alive through taxation to fund the fabulous lifestyles of Thornbury and her husband, team Balls, etc.etc.etc. The list is endless.
Perhaps Miliband should have gone on record saying, how dare you sneer at the people who pay for your lifestyle....
I remember saying UKIP were a significant threat on here five years ago and being much ridiculed by nearly all commenters. I now receive equal ridicule for saying fracking is totally underestimated both as a real threat to people's health and wellbeing across swathes of Britain (65% of the landmass) and its potential to swing votes. The other story being blanked on here and elsewhere is the rise of The Greens, where the left wing votes are heading, with fracking opposition the main reason. As I keep repeating, if UKIP would wake up to this threat/opportunity and oppose fracking/gas drilling near peoples' homes and businesses, they would finally break through to major party status. Will it take five years again for people to realise where politics is going? I hope not.
'We' started it.
When I say 'we', of course I mean me on October the 13th.
That's the rise of The Greens you mentioned on October 13th, Swiss Bob, or the issue of fracking driving their rise in the polls?
Reckless is quoted as saying, "Labour are party of public-sector privilege."
Ukip won in Rochester because the Labour Party now represents only the public sector elite, according to Mark Reckless......
He declared: ‘The radical tradition, which has stood and spoken for the working class, has found a new home in Ukip.
‘As Labour represents those comfortable at the top of the public sector, it is not Ed Miliband, but Ukip that represents the concerns of most working men and women.’
Will this have any impact in Labour heartlands that rely on public sector employment like the NE and S Wales?
It's a pretty bold attack line.
"The party of public sector privilege" when all the cuts are about the public sector finances.
Deficit figures show that it is pensions, including public sector ones, that Osborne can't get control of.
Then you have the alternative line to the cost of living crisis that on average we are getting wealthier, but it is those sitting in generous final salary pension schemes (mainly public sector) that are most profiting. Automatic, time served, pay progression still exists.
UKIP are going after the people that Labour have ignored.
Mr and Mrs Average who work in the private sector (83%), not the public one (17%).
They aren't multi millionaires (a few thousand people) , but they don't want handouts for empty bedrooms either (a few hundred thousand). They own their own home or are buying it, they drive rather than use state rail.
They are not part of a minority that is agitating for rights, but are part of a majority who are perhaps fed up with hearing about minority rights and having theirs diminished.
The problem for UKIP voters is the same as for other parties. They want to punish others but not suffer themselves.
Go ahead and cut GPs salaries and pensions, and Nurses and Social Workers. All of these are posts that are underfilled at present, yet poor NHS services are a core part of the campaigns in Clacton and Rochester. 25% of GP training posts this year are unfilled already.
Import Romanian GPs and Portuguese nurses to plug the gaps maybe...
How desperate could they be if Darling was a contender
You mean they're not desperate?
Re Reckless on Sky this morning. If it's to announce the defection of a Labour MP I'm going to look like the Seer of Peithagoras (and Mr Herdson is going to look very silly).
looks to be just an anti-ec speech
Old invitation to Bruges group, from when he was still a Tory!
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
The main thing that Mike Smithson never mentions is that there was a 42% swing to UKIP from 0% in Rochester and Strood.
We also heard a lot over the last couple of week about how Reckless was going to get annihilated because he didn't have any personal vote despite being the incumbent. Well that 42% came from somewhere, so either 42% of R&S actually rather like him, or 42% of R&S rather like what UKIP are saying, or some combination of the two.
I think after the Lib Dems got beaten into fifth place by the Bus Pass Elvis party they lost all credibility.
That was at a local by-election and as you say, even that caused much embarrassment / laughter (depending on which side, if any, you support). But were it to happen at a Westminster by-election, that would be a different matter altogether. It would be the sort of event that consistently gets referenced in the popular media, HIGNFY and so on, and does serious and lasting damage to the image of a party which is already struggling.
This is getting tedious David. I would have voted Tory in Rochester on Thursday to keep UKIP out. This is what you get with first past the past and your repeated posts don't appear to comprehend how the electoral system works.
I understand perfectly well how the electoral system works. I also understand how the political media work. Rochester was the Liberals / Lib Dems worst *ever* share of the vote (admittedly, they didn't stand in a lot of elections in the 1950s and 60s); it can't just be written off. After all, they won over 16% in 2010 - they were not starting as mere also-rans.
How you would have voted is your business. As you know, I dislike so-called tactical voting both because it encourages the corrosive oppositionist mind-set (i.e. for people to vote against rather than for something), and it also encourages parties to end up a bucket-vote seeking entities that believe in nothing and stand for nothing but hope to win just because they're not someone else, which is no basis for government - and government is what serious parties aspire to. Once upon a time, the Lib Dems facing a Tory government and a weak Labour opposition would have had a shot at a constituency like R&S.
In any case, you can't have it both ways: either you accept the theory, that electors for an individual in constituencies or the practice, that voters cast their ballots for any number of reasons, which may include tactical votes but also includes national issues: parties, leaders and policies. In fact, the great majority of votes in the great majority of seats are cast on these issues, which is why national swings work if applied properly, why the Lib Dems went up in 2010 and then down in 2010, why UKIP has risen so consistently across much of the country, why the SNP has broken through across Scotland - and so on. These are not down to local factors and run counter to natural tactical voting patterns.
Tactical voting is a feature of the system with all the hallmarks of a bug. It's one reason why FPTP is unfit for purpose and why it needs replacing with a suitable system of PR (open lists being my preference).
They won their 271st seat after the Tories threw the kitchen sink at it. Obviously they're not going anywhere. /s
This is pathetic. The incumbent won rather less well than was being predicted or shown in the polls. This complaint that the Tories threw the kitchen sink at at smacks of desperation. What the hell did you expect them to do?
UKIP has got to learn to stop whingeing.
What is pathetic about it? He is not the one who is whingeing, he is just making an observation that this was not a target seat and the Tories tried their damned hardest to try and win but failed. He was merely stating a couple of facts!
Accusing someone of desperation over that comment is rather strange, now if UKIP lost then yes he would be whingeing, but they didn't. They won.
Mike strongly tipped UKIP to lose in Rochester and is bitter at doing his dough
The main thing that Mike Smithson never mentions is that there was a 42% swing to UKIP from 0% in Rochester and Strood.
We also heard a lot over the last couple of week about how Reckless was going to get annihilated because he didn't have any personal vote despite being the incumbent. Well that 42% came from somewhere, so either 42% of R&S actually rather like him, or 42% of R&S rather like what UKIP are saying, or some combination of the two.
Or neither. There are a least half a dozen other more plausible explanations. Have a think about it.
Comments
As an aside, Tom Clarkson has annoyed me all season long. To think the cretinous bigwigs got rid of Gary Anderson and replaced him with Clarkson.
Perhaps half of all Kipper MPs have signed a letter regaring the leader....
Guinness? That's like drinking soil. Not my tipple! On cornflakes? Ewwww - that makes me feel queasy just imaging it coming back up to say Hello!!
I'm blessed with what I can only put down to excessive teenage drinking knowledge. So my body intervenes and sends me to sleep first - and can go on the wagon for weeks without it bothering me. It must be horrible to be unable to resist the ski-slope addiction some experience with just one even years later.
You have a bit better chance being 500 miles away rather than a few miles, hence it is nowhere near London, that was not by chance.
Poor, very poor. London is surrounded by first strike targets if not being one itself. From memory capital cities are themselves not first strike targets because who do you have left to negotiate with?
You're blinded by your prejudice.
Are there specific constituencies where a sharp Labour fall would most help the Conservatives?
Talk about an over reaction to a tweet.
In the real world banking fraud goes on and on and no one is charged with any offence.
The debt rises beyond anyone's comprehension.
Interest rates have been nearly zero for six years.
Quantitative easing never ends.
Japan has tried all this and never mind a lost decade , it is a lost generation.
We will be following them.
I think it will be the LibDems who don't comprehend how the electoral system works next May "But...but...but...INCUMBENCY????"
'The thing about the English (and the Scots, Welsh and Irish) is that they like fighting.'
However I would struggle to name any more than 3 Tories , Davidson due to being leader, Mundell as only MP and useless and Johnstone who is an obnoxious odious MSP. That excludes our 3 resident Tories , royalist Easterross , surgist Fitalaff and deluded unionist Davidl, two of whom at least would be far better than the party hacks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15897345
The match is not perfect (Lowestoft has good figures for example) but it is surprisingly good.
My hypothesis is that these areas are neglected by central government, and are unfashionable places to work, so not chosen by top class staff. The experience of poor NHS services certainly seems to have been a major issue in both Clacton and Rochester, based on the visible campaigns.
It perhaps merits looking at UKIP prospects for betting purposes at places like Crewe or Nuneaton with alarming figures.
Anything to divert people's attention from the real problems they face.
FPT.Having just flicked through this thread and following the zeitgeist of white van man and his flags I couldn't help but notice that some on here now think the Tory lady from Rochester was the ideal choice and it was just the champagne socialist snobs and yound Tory zealots who couldn't see it.
Well I'm sorry but she came accross as a sneering half cooked moron. I understand that someone from the highlands might not understand the nuances of English accents but there is no excuse for anyone else.
In advertising there are very specific voices and accents which people use for particular products. Seductive trustworthy honest dishonest sharp stupid simple etc etc. It is something that is understood by our subconscious. Anyone wanting to sell insurance for example is not going to seek out Kelly Tolhurst but might well use the soft Edinburgh accent of Alastaire Darling.
So enough of this inverted snobbery. Ed's was crass enough yesterday but let's not make ourselves look ridiculous by following him.
Daily Telegraph
One Labour insider said: “The whole party is incredibly depressed. We’re being run by a group of North London MPs who are totally detached from reality, who have never worked in the real world and have more in common with the Liberal Democrats than working-class voters.”
If there own party are saving this openly now when the pressure comes on during the GE can you just imagine the door step conversations. " you don't support him why should we? " it will as come down to the "postal votes" that will put Miliband in No10
That is nothing. Plebgate is still running after 2 years.
Whitevangate and Plebgate are very similar, in that any offence that Mitchell or Thornbury gave should have been remedied by a simple apology. End of. It is the toxic whiff of snobbery that has given both stories enormous mileage.
Plebgate was fanned by New International, the Labour Party (& the Police Federation)
Whitevangate was fanned by News International and the Labour Party.
It is the fact that the Labour handling of the media has been so inept that is the real cause for concern. There is ample pointers that this is going to come under real strain in the General Election.
But perhaps that is more to do with easy access to the Atlantic than it is to do with any conspiracy theories you might advance?
But in the general election will Conservaives and Labourites vote LD to stop UKIP where the LDs hold a seat?
If there is an unofficial pact that coalition parners do not contest each other where they hold a seat then the LD seat count might well hold up. They could of course take it further where they are the best challenger to Labour.
Now that the supposed, alleged, boil of nasty right wing extremism has been sucked out by UKIP, who are keen to put socialist after theit nationalist tag, then voters can see a clear point to voting Tory. A general election is a totally different thing to where you have a by election with a defector who is still esentially a different flavour of tory.
:-)
In the community where I am currently living, over the last five years, there has been an increasing number of people who have moved from employment to self-employment, either as sole traders or a limited company. (Hence some of GO's current problems).
These are a mix of electricians, plumbers, small builders and IT people. All require their own transport of sorts (usually a van/estate car) as public transport is sparse.
I have been privileged to have been able to help these people (always free of charge) to set up their own business, train them (and often their wife/partner) to do their own accounts, VAT and HMRC returns, get bank overdrafts and loans etc. All have been successful and many are now employers as their business has grown.
As I have got to know them more, it has become apparent that they have certain characteristics. All are proud of their skills and of doing a good job for their clients. They are quite contemptuous of the low standards and expectations they see in the local schools, NHS and Councils.
How do they vote, well certainly not Labour (in power) or LD and my feeling is they are part of the DNV - but could well support UKIP in 2015.
Rule by executive fiat doesn't seem very democratic either!
I hope the GOP sticks to criticising the method rather than the substance though, at least at this point
Congrats to UKIP for winning R&S. Is there any Tory seat safe from attack now? Labour may not be surging ahead but the Tories are in total disarray - Not that you would know that from reading the usual BS from the nasty Tory trolls on here.
Ed Milliband still on course to be PM - though it's getting closer by the day.
Its like selling the spread on goals on in a football match everytime a goal goes in. When its 5-3 and you go in to sell again, its time to think your original goals quote was too low
http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/11/19/rochester-betting-although-ukip-looks-a-near-certainty-there-are-still-some-interesting-markets/
If Ed had a brain he would have reacted to that.
Thornberry is a fool - I don't need tweets to tell me that.
Mr. Root, a few chaps will be P45 after the race this weekend.
Everyone accepts that Mitchell swore (Including AM). In my opinion, that is probably all he did. It was stupid to do, but we have all encountered jobsworths in the public sector, and have been similarly irritated.
Thornbury tweeted an ambiguous, but rather sneering, picture. In my opinion, that is all she did. It was stupid to do, but all of us have done something equally mocking.
These two incidents are completely trivial, and should have ended by Mitchell and Thornbury offering a private apology, and the individuals concerned accepting it. We are firing cabinet ministers for doing things that everyone does.
News International are clearly in he job of taking such incidents and making them into enormous publicity stunts.
However his reaction to a tweet causes concern.
Blair sacked Mandelson once in a media frenzy with out knowing the facts.
Milliband needs to be more circumspect.
The link had Mike saying "Although UKIP looks a near certainty"
Does that make it clearer?
There is a Pyschopath in charge in the Kremlin ..who orders near over flights of the UK every day and is about to invade his neighbours.
Ther is a large ..well armed, bunch of medieval savages rampaging through the middle east, trying to get their hands on some nuclear weapons..and vowing to use them ..to wipe us all out
.
If either group succeeds then there will not be an an NHS or any benefits of any kind to anyone.
So a good time to ditch our Nuclear deterrant...wowsa.
Given the complete failure of immigration law over many years, were I a Congressman I could have accepted some sort of amnesty in exchange for much tougher border control, the elimination of unskilled economic migration, much tighter family migration limits (i.e. only spouses and children), easier high skilled migration, and the prevention of categories where low income people often overstay. Unfortunately, the deal on the table in the last couple of years was written by a combination of Democratic self-serving politics and corporate interest in dirt cheap labour.
22/11/2014 09:56
Has the Conservative Party retrieved the kitchen sink from Rochester? It will be needed again.......
Apart from that, spot on!
I wonder if this is because all these purveyors of gloom for UKIP, are subconsciously content for Britain to be a star on the EU flag and can live happily with their country being run by second and third rate politicians. In fact thats how most of them make their living.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/04/nigel-farage-is-just-russell-brand-for-old-people/
totally underestimated both as a real threat to people's health and wellbeing across
swathes of Britain (65% of the landmass) and its potential to swing votes. The other
story being blanked on here and elsewhere is the rise of The Greens, where the left wing votes are heading, with fracking opposition the main reason. As I keep repeating, if UKIP
would wake up to this threat/opportunity and oppose fracking/gas drilling near peoples' homes and businesses, they would finally break through to major party status. Will it
take five years again for people to realise where politics is going? I hope not.
A few times on these threads I have mentioned that Steven Kinnock might be vulnerable to a Nugee type assault in Aberavon....
"I have told Emily that the photo she tweeted was both unpleasant and out of line with the values of our party and our country. The English - as with the greater British nation they are part of - have much to be proud about in their heritage, and people showing their patriotism is a positive thing that this party welcomes. From our conversation, Emily seems to have understood why so many people took offence and appreciated why she was in the wrong. Given this was a first offence, I hope this can be the end of the matter."
Mike said anything over 6/4 on the Tories was value, and right from the off advised backing against UKIP... He also constantly linked to polls that said UKIP might be in trouble... they won easily
He accepted defeat when they were 1/33 as you linked to, but so what?
My Week: Emily Thornberry
Monday
Shadow Cabinet campaign meeting. Ed Miliband says I should go campaigning in Rochester and Strood.
“But I haven’t had my jabs,” I tell him.
Ed says I won’t need them. “Except maybe for tetanus,” he adds.
“And rabies,” adds Ed Balls. “Plenty of rabid Ukippers in Rochester and Strood!”
Out of interest, I say, why do they keep pronouncing Stroud like that?
“Different place,” says Harriet Harman, uncertainly. “You’re thinking of the Cotswolds.”
Yeah,” says Chuka. “This one is near Manchester.”
“Not Essex?” says Ed Balls.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4274785.ece
Mike saying a bet was 'value' is not the same as strongly tipping UKIP to lose, now is it?
As someone based in London and Scotland, he completely fails to understand UKIP and their base as much as Matthew Parris does. Nobody in UKIP has ever said that all we need to do is leave the EU and end immigration. What we have said is that leaving the EU will give us the tools we need to make the necessary changes that will make a difference, and that moving from mass unfiltered immigration to limited, highly skilled immigration will really help us turn into a higher wage economy. The anti-UKIP brigade know they can't debate this actual argument and win, so they prefer to argue with a straw-man stereotype of the argument.
There is thankfully only a narow prejudiced minority who fall for UKIP. Voting Tory now does not mean that you risk voting for prejudiced bigots. What you do of course is vote for a party which will give you a referendum on the EU.
Reading malcolmg we can see that the SNP is going the other way - falling back into unilateralist, loony left, old religion socialist prejudice.
PS - How strange is it that an admittedly thick labour shadow minister has resigned, but Farage can ally himself with a Polish neo nazi and of course one of his senior MEPs can hurl racial abuse at one of her own voters? All with impunity. I can imagine millions of people voting against UKIP.
When I say 'we', of course I mean me on October the 13th.
The choice isn't isolation or the EU, it's governing ourselves or having unelected meddlesome eunuchs from Brussels do it.
And that's without the inherently unsustainable insanity of the eurozone.
Edited extra bit: Ron Dennis still talks like a robot. More human than Miliband, though.
"The party of public sector privilege" when all the cuts are about the public sector finances.
Deficit figures show that it is pensions, including public sector ones, that Osborne can't get control of.
Then you have the alternative line to the cost of living crisis that on average we are getting wealthier, but it is those sitting in generous final salary pension schemes (mainly public sector) that are most profiting. Automatic, time served, pay progression still exists.
UKIP are going after the people that Labour have ignored.
Mr and Mrs Average who work in the private sector (83%), not the public one (17%).
They aren't multi millionaires (a few thousand people) , but they don't want handouts for empty bedrooms either (a few hundred thousand). They own their own home or are buying it, they drive rather than use state rail.
They are not part of a minority that is agitating for rights, but are part of a majority who are perhaps fed up with hearing about minority rights and having theirs diminished.
Watching now, will switch over at 1100 for the let down.
Am tucking in to a plate of bacon, with burnt crunchy bits, fried eggs and voluminous amounts of HP. Hope to feel better soon (Re hangovers).
No rosti or polenta though as carbs are bad for you as Dr Fox will agree I'm sure.
"Mike saying a bet was 'value' is not the same as strongly tipping UKIP to lose, now is it?"
He did both
@BBCDouglasF: Radical Indy Campaign has gathered 3000 in Glasgow: launching 'People's Vow' against austerity, for nationalis'n, republic, enviro't #RIC
Peter Kellner has demonstrated that since January 2013, the age profile of UKIP's support has become much younger.
The fact remains that white van man is getting skinned alive through taxation to fund the fabulous lifestyles of Thornbury and her husband, team Balls, etc.etc.etc. The list is endless.
Perhaps Miliband should have gone on record saying, how dare you sneer at the people who pay for your lifestyle....
That's the rise of The Greens you mentioned on October 13th, Swiss Bob, or the issue of fracking driving their rise in the polls?
Go ahead and cut GPs salaries and pensions, and Nurses and Social Workers. All of these are posts that are underfilled at present, yet poor NHS services are a core part of the campaigns in Clacton and Rochester. 25% of GP training posts this year are unfilled already.
Import Romanian GPs and Portuguese nurses to plug the gaps maybe...
"very bad for Labour"
To say nothing of the collapse in Lib Dems.....
How you would have voted is your business. As you know, I dislike so-called tactical voting both because it encourages the corrosive oppositionist mind-set (i.e. for people to vote against rather than for something), and it also encourages parties to end up a bucket-vote seeking entities that believe in nothing and stand for nothing but hope to win just because they're not someone else, which is no basis for government - and government is what serious parties aspire to. Once upon a time, the Lib Dems facing a Tory government and a weak Labour opposition would have had a shot at a constituency like R&S.
In any case, you can't have it both ways: either you accept the theory, that electors for an individual in constituencies or the practice, that voters cast their ballots for any number of reasons, which may include tactical votes but also includes national issues: parties, leaders and policies. In fact, the great majority of votes in the great majority of seats are cast on these issues, which is why national swings work if applied properly, why the Lib Dems went up in 2010 and then down in 2010, why UKIP has risen so consistently across much of the country, why the SNP has broken through across Scotland - and so on. These are not down to local factors and run counter to natural tactical voting patterns.
Tactical voting is a feature of the system with all the hallmarks of a bug. It's one reason why FPTP is unfit for purpose and why it needs replacing with a suitable system of PR (open lists being my preference).