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Sunak’s legacy – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,694
edited April 28 in General
Sunak’s legacy – politicalbetting.com

''The fate of this government was sealed in two six-week periods… Boris Johnson's interpretation of the covid regulations and the Liz Truss fiscal event.''Conservatives need a well-proven, effective campaigner who could change this 'near-impossible situation',@JohnCurticeOnTV… pic.twitter.com/7bsmgKDS4H

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,110
    Obviously correct. Boris and Truss screwed the Tories. At least Boris stumbled on a good strategy (economically moderate, socially populist) first.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    WillG said:

    Obviously correct. Boris and Truss screwed the Tories. At least Boris stumbled on a good strategy (economically moderate, socially populist) first.

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.
  • Options
    ajbajb Posts: 123
    edited April 9
    The political system has two responsibilities: personnel and strategy. The current political and media culture puts 95% of it's energy into personnel: who should be in power? Are they being competent right now? You can argue that this is bad for thought-through policy, but the really damning aspect is how bad the results have been in the part they are paying attention to.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732
    WillG said:

    Obviously correct. Boris and Truss screwed the Tories. At least Boris stumbled on a good strategy (economically moderate, socially populist) first.

    Johnson was only socially populist by spending money like a drunken sailor with 2 days in port. Like Sunak as CoE, it isn't something that can last.

  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302
    Thanks @TSE

    Sums up the tory predicament and they’re not getting out of it this side of the election.

    I know a lot of people just wishing now to get it over with. That’s one of the reasons I think things could get worse for them as the year progresses.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732
    Pretty hard hitting Biden Ad on the consequences of Republicans Abortion laws.

    https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1777379338574352399?t=fntRFPURLkq0ipbyL9cfSQ&s=19
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732
    Heathener said:

    Thanks @TSE

    Sums up the tory predicament and they’re not getting out of it this side of the election.

    I know a lot of people just wishing now to get it over with. That’s one of the reasons I think things could get worse for them as the year progresses.

    I think that the Tories will have a bad but not disastrous round of local elections.

    1) not many Reform candidates standing, so not many Reform votes accumulated.

    2) it's the national party rather than local Conservatives that are deeply unpopular.

    3) LDs, Greens and Independents likely to have a good night as they have much better prospects in council than national elections. This will often be at the expense of Labour.

    Overall these will tend to inflate Tory vote share and suppress Labour share and deliver false hope to Sunak.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,363
    The Tories will have bad election results . The reality will come when people realise that the alternative was even worse.
    How long will it be before the Lib Dems are loathed in Horsham... strikes me the seeds of discontent are already present.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Thanks @TSE

    Sums up the tory predicament and they’re not getting out of it this side of the election.

    I know a lot of people just wishing now to get it over with. That’s one of the reasons I think things could get worse for them as the year progresses.

    I think that the Tories will have a bad but not disastrous round of local elections.

    1) not many Reform candidates standing, so not many Reform votes accumulated.

    2) it's the national party rather than local Conservatives that are deeply unpopular.

    3) LDs, Greens and Independents likely to have a good night as they have much better prospects in council than national elections. This will often be at the expense of Labour.

    Overall these will tend to inflate Tory vote share and suppress Labour share and deliver false hope to Sunak.
    That could be a very good call @Foxy

    I wonder if it might prompt Sunak to go for June? I doubt he will because he is a ditherer, eclipsing even Theresa May.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,748
    Trump's GOP is now just openly peddling Russian propaganda.

    RNC Chair Michael Whatley says the quiet part loud on Maria Bartiromo's show and portrays Ukraine as an "aggressive" adversary of the US
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1776986542038192360
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,457
    It's very difficult to disagree with Sir John Curtice's analysis.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081
    Foxy said:

    Pretty hard hitting Biden Ad on the consequences of Republicans Abortion laws.

    https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1777379338574352399?t=fntRFPURLkq0ipbyL9cfSQ&s=19

    I understand the moral dilemma about abortion.

    But how they can prevent appropriate medical intervention in a situation like this is beyond me
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081
    Nigelb said:

    Trump's GOP is now just openly peddling Russian propaganda.

    RNC Chair Michael Whatley says the quiet part loud on Maria Bartiromo's show and portrays Ukraine as an "aggressive" adversary of the US
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1776986542038192360

    If you listen to the clip it was almost certainly a misspeak (Biden is weak… China, Ukraine, Iran are all more aggressive [my paraphrase])

    But Bartiromo was unimpressive on not calling him out on it
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,389
    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Thanks @TSE

    Sums up the tory predicament and they’re not getting out of it this side of the election.

    I know a lot of people just wishing now to get it over with. That’s one of the reasons I think things could get worse for them as the year progresses.

    I think that the Tories will have a bad but not disastrous round of local elections.

    1) not many Reform candidates standing, so not many Reform votes accumulated.

    2) it's the national party rather than local Conservatives that are deeply unpopular.

    3) LDs, Greens and Independents likely to have a good night as they have much better prospects in council than national elections. This will often be at the expense of Labour.

    Overall these will tend to inflate Tory vote share and suppress Labour share and deliver false hope to Sunak.
    That could be a very good call @Foxy

    I wonder if it might prompt Sunak to go for June? I doubt he will because he is a ditherer, eclipsing even Theresa May.
    ...eclipsing...

    I saw what you did there..

    :smiley:
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Thanks @TSE

    Sums up the tory predicament and they’re not getting out of it this side of the election.

    I know a lot of people just wishing now to get it over with. That’s one of the reasons I think things could get worse for them as the year progresses.

    I think that the Tories will have a bad but not disastrous round of local elections.

    1) not many Reform candidates standing, so not many Reform votes accumulated.

    2) it's the national party rather than local Conservatives that are deeply unpopular.

    3) LDs, Greens and Independents likely to have a good night as they have much better prospects in council than national elections. This will often be at the expense of Labour.

    Overall these will tend to inflate Tory vote share and suppress Labour share and deliver false hope to Sunak.
    That could be a very good call @Foxy

    I wonder if it might prompt Sunak to go for June? I doubt he will because he is a ditherer, eclipsing even Theresa May.
    ...eclipsing...

    I saw what you did there..

    :smiley:
    ;)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,056
    Did the Rapture not happen?

    Oh well, I'd better pay my council tax then...
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302
    On which subject, I mentioned this yesterday but there’s a handy eclipse schedule here:

    https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/list-total-solar.html

    For some time I’ve had an eye on either the August 2026 or August 2027 ones, partly because of the potential for cloudless conditions.

    I missed a very good chance a few years ago in Indonesia through messing up my travel. I would definitely like to see a total solar eclipse.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,082
    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
  • Options
    CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 223
    Curtice's analysis overlooks two other variables:

    3) the broken nature of the tory party has become clear to all > you don't know if you are voting for a big state one nationer, a small state low tax libertarian or a jingoistic ethnonationalist and it is clear to the electorate that they cannot collaborate sufficiently to govern the country.

    4) the institutions of the country have become so dysfunctional (due to compounding bad governance) that it cannot be ignored.

    True, BJ and Truss were very very bad, but it goes beyond just that. It seems that the electorate and the press in general (even the times and the telegraph) has assessed the last 14 years as a whole and determined it to be a total failure, which has revealed the illusory nature of right wing political assumptions.

    Brexit and British exceptionalism is clearly dying. It simply has no credibility. National experiences since 2016 have totally nixed that notion.

    The idea that individual hard work is enough makes no sense if there are structural impediments to social mobility.

    Building a society around 1 generational cohort (boomers) and their desire to live off passive rent while everybody under 55 is taxed to the hilt on work won't fly, especially as the boomer cohort is irreversibly contracting due to demography. The numerical possibility of millenials to cause a changing of the guard has erased voting apathy among millenials.

    The end of globalisation and the American world order has recontextualised britain and its security outlook and changed the priorities of its people. The global mood is simply changing
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,712
    WillG said:

    Obviously correct. Boris and Truss screwed the Tories. At least Boris stumbled on a good strategy (economically moderate, socially populist) first.

    He stumbled upon some successful campaign promises. He never had an actual strategy for how to deliver what he promised.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,056
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
    I think that's going a little far. But I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732
    Heathener said:

    On which subject, I mentioned this yesterday but there’s a handy eclipse schedule here:

    https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/list-total-solar.html

    For some time I’ve had an eye on either the August 2026 or August 2027 ones, partly because of the potential for cloudless conditions.

    I missed a very good chance a few years ago in Indonesia through messing up my travel. I would definitely like to see a total solar eclipse.

    The August 2026 one looks partial for most of England. I remember the one in 2000 or so that was partial but impressive.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732
    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
    Yes Boris didn’t really believe in Brexit at all. He was motivated by what worked best for Boris.

    Brexit has been an unmitigated disaster for Britain.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,470
    Heathener said:

    On which subject, I mentioned this yesterday but there’s a handy eclipse schedule here:

    https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/list-total-solar.html

    For some time I’ve had an eye on either the August 2026 or August 2027 ones, partly because of the potential for cloudless conditions.

    I missed a very good chance a few years ago in Indonesia through messing up my travel. I would definitely like to see a total solar eclipse.

    We had one in 1999. A must-see but anticlimactic because once you've seen it for a few seconds, there is not much to look at.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    On which subject, I mentioned this yesterday but there’s a handy eclipse schedule here:

    https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/list-total-solar.html

    For some time I’ve had an eye on either the August 2026 or August 2027 ones, partly because of the potential for cloudless conditions.

    I missed a very good chance a few years ago in Indonesia through messing up my travel. I would definitely like to see a total solar eclipse.

    The August 2026 one looks partial for most of England. I remember the one in 2000 or so that was partial but impressive.
    Yes I want to head off to either Spain or north Africa for the 2026 or 2027 ones. Somewhere like Luxor on 2nd August 2027 could be spectacular.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
    I think that's going a little far. But I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.
    As you may know, I felt and still do that parliament should have voted through Theresa May’s deal. Economically it was better for Britain.

    Unfortunately it didn’t suit the political hardliners, illustrating the point that Brexit was never about the economic benefits for Britain.
  • Options
    CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 223
    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
  • Options
    IcarusIcarus Posts: 908

    Heathener said:

    On which subject, I mentioned this yesterday but there’s a handy eclipse schedule here:

    https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/list-total-solar.html

    For some time I’ve had an eye on either the August 2026 or August 2027 ones, partly because of the potential for cloudless conditions.

    I missed a very good chance a few years ago in Indonesia through messing up my travel. I would definitely like to see a total solar eclipse.

    We had one in 1999. A must-see but anticlimactic because once you've seen it for a few seconds, there is not much to look at.
    Drove down to Portland Bill in 1999 where it was total -just. - though quite a lot of cloud was really worth doing - Planning for Spain in 2026.
  • Options
    CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 223
    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
    You can call me Gen X if you want... no hard feelings. It is just an age cohort descriptor. 😃
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,082

    I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.

    I am not sure that statement is true.

    The purgatory we are in now is we lost all the benefits of being a member and there are no benefits of being a third country.

    We spent billions on customs facilities we will never use.

    We are weaker, economically and politically then we were.

    We elected a Parliament who committed to get it done, and they are a collection of incompetent idiots, nutters, fruitcakes and swivel-eyed loons, not to mention the appalling behaviour and morals.

    Where, exactly, is the "better"?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,532
    Travellers move onto Tesco Extra car park in Leyland, petrol station stops taking cash

    Travellers have been ordered to leave a Tesco car park in Leyland.

    A fleet of caravans moved onto the Tesco Extra car park in Towngate on Sunday afternoon, close to the petrol station.

    It was reported to Lancashire Police and officers visited the group last night. However, the car park is private land and legal efforts must be taken to remove them.

    The Tesco website says parking at the Leyland superstore is free and unlimited, but is subject to conditions.

    Petrol - pay at pump only

    As a temporary measure, the supermarket’s petrol station is restricting payments to card only at the pumps. Cash will not be accepted until further notice, said staff.

    Tesco were approached for comment.


    https://www.lep.co.uk/news/traffic-and-travel/travellers-move-onto-tesco-car-park-petrol-station-goes-card-only-4583245
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732
    Icarus said:

    Heathener said:

    On which subject, I mentioned this yesterday but there’s a handy eclipse schedule here:

    https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/list-total-solar.html

    For some time I’ve had an eye on either the August 2026 or August 2027 ones, partly because of the potential for cloudless conditions.

    I missed a very good chance a few years ago in Indonesia through messing up my travel. I would definitely like to see a total solar eclipse.

    We had one in 1999. A must-see but anticlimactic because once you've seen it for a few seconds, there is not much to look at.
    Drove down to Portland Bill in 1999 where it was total -just. - though quite a lot of cloud was really worth doing - Planning for Spain in 2026.
    Be careful of the sun @Icarus 🌞

    In the East Midlands it wasn't a total eclipse like the West Country, but as I recall we had clear skies so a better view.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,265

    Heathener said:

    On which subject, I mentioned this yesterday but there’s a handy eclipse schedule here:

    https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/list-total-solar.html

    For some time I’ve had an eye on either the August 2026 or August 2027 ones, partly because of the potential for cloudless conditions.

    I missed a very good chance a few years ago in Indonesia through messing up my travel. I would definitely like to see a total solar eclipse.

    We had one in 1999. A must-see but anticlimactic because once you've seen it for a few seconds, there is not much to look at.
    Might be interesting to be in a culture that has strong eclipse superstitions. I remember a (partial) solar eclipse in India was really shocking because the streets were completely deserted for a couple of hours - it was almost like being back in England!
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
    I think that's going a little far. But I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.
    The whole thing was done back to front.

    First there should have been a specific deal to vote on, then you vote.

    Having a referendum on simply leaving or not leaving was voting on having a problem or not.

    I think the referendum was only ever meant to be a kind of theatrics to destroy ukip. Cameron and even the populists never ever thought it would come to this. It was never meant to happen. And yet here we are ..... due to careless tory politics.


    Why would the EU bother to negotiate a theory? Any negotiation was going to tie up 2 years minimum of multiple governments’ time and capacity

    What we *should* have done was have a vote on the Lisbon Treaty.

    But Gordon Brown had a cunning plan…

  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    Posh demi-billionaire Sunak gets time of day from people who like that sort of thing, but has achieved worse polling results for his party than Johnson and even Truss.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,096
    WillG said:

    Obviously correct. Boris and Truss screwed the Tories. At least Boris stumbled on a good strategy (economically moderate, socially populist) first.

    And Boris did beat Corbyn and get Brexit done
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,263
    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    .
    Same applies to you and Trans

    HTH
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081
    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
    I think that's going a little far. But I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.
    As you may know, I felt and still do that parliament should have voted through Theresa May’s deal. Economically it was better for Britain.

    Unfortunately it didn’t suit the political hardliners, illustrating the point that Brexit was never about the economic benefits for Britain.
    Of course it wasn’t.

    At the margin there is a debate on trade policy. But fundamentally the debate was whether the economic benefits were worth the political and social (net) costs.

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
    You can call me Gen X if you want... no hard feelings. It is just an age cohort descriptor. 😃
    I’m often described as a cross between Millennial and Gen Z in my attitudes which tells me that the categorisations are pretty meaningless. Like a lot of social constructs they are designed to control others and sow divisions. When ideas challenge our own we seek to box people in.

    I hope after the election that this country will move on from these social divisions and, albeit gradually, we begin to work together with greater mutual respect, understanding, and cohesion. Certainly we need to see an end to this 'anti-woke' and 'anti-gammon’ hatred.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062

    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
    I think that's going a little far. But I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.
    As you may know, I felt and still do that parliament should have voted through Theresa May’s deal. Economically it was better for Britain.

    Unfortunately it didn’t suit the political hardliners, illustrating the point that Brexit was never about the economic benefits for Britain.
    Of course it wasn’t.

    At the margin there is a debate on trade policy. But fundamentally the debate was whether the economic benefits were worth the political and social (net) costs.

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    and repent at leisure
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,082

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081

    Travellers move onto Tesco Extra car park in Leyland, petrol station stops taking cash

    Travellers have been ordered to leave a Tesco car park in Leyland.

    A fleet of caravans moved onto the Tesco Extra car park in Towngate on Sunday afternoon, close to the petrol station.

    It was reported to Lancashire Police and officers visited the group last night. However, the car park is private land and legal efforts must be taken to remove them.

    The Tesco website says parking at the Leyland superstore is free and unlimited, but is subject to conditions.

    Petrol - pay at pump only

    As a temporary measure, the supermarket’s petrol station is restricting payments to card only at the pumps. Cash will not be accepted until further notice, said staff.

    Tesco were approached for comment.


    https://www.lep.co.uk/news/traffic-and-travel/travellers-move-onto-tesco-car-park-petrol-station-goes-card-only-4583245

    I would probably look at giving the police the power to move people along in a situation like this. There is a clear trespass. It’s not worth prosecuting, but it is unjust that it takes weeks to sort out through the civil courts.

  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302
    edited April 9
    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    .
    Same applies to you and Trans

    HTH
    I’ve no idea what this means in the context, and I’m not really sure you do either. And I can’t be bothered to go and google the acronym.

    The reason I don’t enter the bear pit on here about transgenderism is that I don’t believe it’s the right context for an informed and well-mannered, open-minded, discussion. This despite being nationally recognised on the subject. And this is a political betting forum.

    In years to come I believe we will look back on the current obsession with trans issues, like Rwanda, as psychotic.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,096
    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    MPs alone picked Hague, May, Major, Sunak, Thatcher and Heath and Howard on the Tory side, Foot and Brown, Wilson and Callaghan on the Labour side.

    Tory members picked IDS, Cameron, Boris and Truss. Labour members picked Kinnock, Smith, Blair, Corbyn and Starmer and David Miliband (the unions picked Ed). It is a myth MPs always get it right and members always wrong
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,748

    Nigelb said:

    Trump's GOP is now just openly peddling Russian propaganda.

    RNC Chair Michael Whatley says the quiet part loud on Maria Bartiromo's show and portrays Ukraine as an "aggressive" adversary of the US
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1776986542038192360

    If you listen to the clip it was almost certainly a misspeak (Biden is weak… China, Ukraine, Iran are all more aggressive [my paraphrase])

    But Bartiromo was unimpressive on not calling him out on it
    The misspeak (and it probably was) is pretty telling.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,134

    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
    I think that's going a little far. But I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.
    As you may know, I felt and still do that parliament should have voted through Theresa May’s deal. Economically it was better for Britain.

    Unfortunately it didn’t suit the political hardliners, illustrating the point that Brexit was never about the economic benefits for Britain.
    Of course it wasn’t.

    At the margin there is a debate on trade policy. But fundamentally the debate was whether the economic benefits were worth the political and social (net) costs.

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    Yes I remember well the Vote Leave poster "you will be poorer but it will be worth it".
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081
    Scott_xP said:

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
    I’m not sure either positions have been based on fact-based analysis

    Prior to the vote everything was blamed on the EU. Now everything is blamed on Brexit.

    There have been a number of external shocks since 2016/2020. Brexit’s impact has been marginal in the scheme of things.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,082
    Oh, the trainers. The trainers are a new low. It’s last Friday, and Rishi Sunak, the most Instagram-savvy PM we have ever had, posts a new video. What does he say? Nobody knows. Nobody cares. What matters are the shoes. For they are Adidas Sambas, and they are very cool. Or they were.

    “Even Politicians Are Wearing Sambas Now,” wails a despairing headline in the American menswear bible GQ. Later, GQ’s British website follows up with a second column on the same subject, because that’s how important this is. “Can Rishi Sunak leave the Adidas Samba alone, please?” pleads the writer, but it’s far, far too late.

    In The Telegraph, a columnist describes a friend texting to say his own are about to be burnt. You know things are bleak when you’re less cool than the friend of a Telegraph columnist. It’s no better in The Guardian, where trends in trainers are traditionally considered at least as important as, for example, wars. Poor Rishi. This is how bad it’s got. We’ve reached the stage where he can’t even wear shoes.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/its-not-about-the-trainers-rishi-its-just-over-lzgl9bqrg
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump's GOP is now just openly peddling Russian propaganda.

    RNC Chair Michael Whatley says the quiet part loud on Maria Bartiromo's show and portrays Ukraine as an "aggressive" adversary of the US
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1776986542038192360

    If you listen to the clip it was almost certainly a misspeak (Biden is weak… China, Ukraine, Iran are all more aggressive [my paraphrase])

    But Bartiromo was unimpressive on not calling him out on it
    The misspeak (and it probably was) is pretty telling.
    Not convinced.

    If he had said “Russia” or “Russia in Ukraine” then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

    Sometimes a misspeak is just a misspeak.

  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,082

    Scott_xP said:

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
    I’m not sure either positions have been based on fact-based analysis

    Prior to the vote everything was blamed on the EU. Now everything is blamed on Brexit.

    There have been a number of external shocks since 2016/2020. Brexit’s impact has been marginal in the scheme of things.
    Leave voters were promised unicorns and rainbows.

    Since neither have appeared, they are entitle to believe they were lied to, and change their minds
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,748
    edited April 9

    Curtice's analysis overlooks two other variables:

    3) the broken nature of the tory party has become clear to all > you don't know if you are voting for a big state one nationer, a small state low tax libertarian or a jingoistic ethnonationalist and it is clear to the electorate that they cannot collaborate sufficiently to govern the country.

    4) the institutions of the country have become so dysfunctional (due to compounding bad governance) that it cannot be ignored.

    True, BJ and Truss were very very bad, but it goes beyond just that. It seems that the electorate and the press in general (even the times and the telegraph) has assessed the last 14 years as a whole and determined it to be a total failure, which has revealed the illusory nature of right wing political assumptions.

    Brexit and British exceptionalism is clearly dying. It simply has no credibility. National experiences since 2016 have totally nixed that notion.

    The idea that individual hard work is enough makes no sense if there are structural impediments to social mobility.

    Building a society around 1 generational cohort (boomers) and their desire to live off passive rent while everybody under 55 is taxed to the hilt on work won't fly, especially as the boomer cohort is irreversibly contracting due to demography. The numerical possibility of millenials to cause a changing of the guard has erased voting apathy among millenials.

    The end of globalisation and the American world order has recontextualised britain and its security outlook and changed the priorities of its people. The global mood is simply changing

    That was essentially the analysis behind the proposed Foreign Office restructuring. (Leaving out the bit about the Tories.)

    Depending on execution (of course), it's not the worst of ideas.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,008

    Scott_xP said:

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
    I’m not sure either positions have been based on fact-based analysis

    Prior to the vote everything was blamed on the EU. Now everything is blamed on Brexit.

    There have been a number of external shocks since 2016/2020. Brexit’s impact has been marginal in the scheme of things.
    Prior to the vote you could blame things on the EU and some times the Government didn't get the blame.

    Now everything can be pinned on the Government which is problematic when its obvious stupidity...
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081

    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
    I think that's going a little far. But I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.
    As you may know, I felt and still do that parliament should have voted through Theresa May’s deal. Economically it was better for Britain.

    Unfortunately it didn’t suit the political hardliners, illustrating the point that Brexit was never about the economic benefits for Britain.
    Of course it wasn’t.

    At the margin there is a debate on trade policy. But fundamentally the debate was whether the economic benefits were worth the political and social (net) costs.

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    Yes I remember well the Vote Leave poster "you will be poorer but it will be worth it".
    Was that the one launched by Sir Stuart Rose?

    🥴

  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,525

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
    I think that's going a little far. But I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.
    Given where we were by late 2019, that's very likely the case.

    Given that, Boris's throwing bricks at TMay in 2018 and 2019 shows how poor hos judgement of the national interest was.

    Call me old fashioned, but I don't think a man deserves much credit for solving a problem that has largely been created by his own selfish opportunism.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302
    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    .
    Same applies to you and Trans
    (and, as I would have thought was obvious, I’m very pro trans rights so your comment is even more misdirected)
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,712
    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    .
    Same applies to you and Trans

    HTH
    I’ve no idea what this means in the context, and I’m not really sure you do either. And I can’t be bothered to go and google the acronym.

    The reason I don’t enter the bear pit on here about transgenderism is that I don’t believe it’s the right context for an informed and well-mannered, open-minded, discussion. This despite being nationally recognised on the subject. And this is a political betting forum.

    In years to come I believe we will look back on the current obsession with trans issues, like Rwanda, as psychotic.
    HTH = Hope this helps
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,712
    HYUFD said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    MPs alone picked Hague, May, Major, Sunak, Thatcher and Heath and Howard on the Tory side, Foot and Brown, Wilson and Callaghan on the Labour side.

    Tory members picked IDS, Cameron, Boris and Truss. Labour members picked Kinnock, Smith, Blair, Corbyn and Starmer and David Miliband (the unions picked Ed). It is a myth MPs always get it right and members always wrong
    Indeed. Your evidence suggests that it’s only Conservative Party members who get it wrong.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
    I’m not sure either positions have been based on fact-based analysis

    Prior to the vote everything was blamed on the EU. Now everything is blamed on Brexit.

    There have been a number of external shocks since 2016/2020. Brexit’s impact has been marginal in the scheme of things.
    Leave voters were promised unicorns and rainbows.

    Since neither have appeared, they are entitle to believe they were lied to, and change their minds
    Of course they are entitled to change their minds. But the litany of media wailing has coloured perceptions. Reality and perceptions are not always aligned.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349
    The reason that Sunak is doomed is that he has done nothing material to change the narrative or give us any idea what kind of country he wants. We have been in a quagmire since the Truss fiasco where, as a BBC reporter put it recently, ideas go to Downing Street to die.

    Sunak has, sadly, proved to be another Gordon Brown: desperate for the top job but with no idea whatsoever of what to do with it when he got it. We can only hope that Starmer does not turn out to be the same.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,748
    Anyone tried out Apple's first effort at an AI assisted user interface ?
    https://www.techopedia.com/apple-unveils-ferret-an-open-source-genai-for-vision-language-tasks
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,302

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    .
    Same applies to you and Trans

    HTH
    I’ve no idea what this means in the context, and I’m not really sure you do either. And I can’t be bothered to go and google the acronym.

    The reason I don’t enter the bear pit on here about transgenderism is that I don’t believe it’s the right context for an informed and well-mannered, open-minded, discussion. This despite being nationally recognised on the subject. And this is a political betting forum.

    In years to come I believe we will look back on the current obsession with trans issues, like Rwanda, as psychotic.
    HTH = Hope this helps
    Ah, thanks.

    A rather silly throwaway by Taz with whom I normally have friendly disagreements, and occasional agreements.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,096
    Lord Cameron meets Trump in Florida for talks on Ukraine and the Middle East before meeting US Secretary of State Blinken in DC to discuss foreign policy too
    "David Cameron meets Donald Trump in Florida ahead of Blinken talks - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68767194
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
    I’m not sure either positions have been based on fact-based analysis

    Prior to the vote everything was blamed on the EU. Now everything is blamed on Brexit.

    There have been a number of external shocks since 2016/2020. Brexit’s impact has been marginal in the scheme of things.
    Prior to the vote you could blame things on the EU and some times the Government didn't get the blame.

    Now everything can be pinned on the Government which is problematic when its obvious stupidity...
    And I think that it is great that the government should be held accountable for its stupidity (and praised for its wisdom, although that is rarer than Rainbow Dash at the moment).

  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,723

    Scott_xP said:

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
    I’m not sure either positions have been based on fact-based analysis

    Prior to the vote everything was blamed on the EU. Now everything is blamed on Brexit.

    There have been a number of external shocks since 2016/2020. Brexit’s impact has been marginal in the scheme of things.
    The trouble with that argument is that the external shocks affected the EU too.
    "Britain’s GDP per head has grown just 3.8 per cent since the referendum, while the EU’s has grown by 8.5 per cent."
    https://www.newstatesman.com/chart-of-the-day/2022/06/uk-economy-fallen-behind-eu-since-brexit

    I can see why you would want to argue the way you have, nobody wants to admit they were wrong.
  • Options
    CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 223
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
    You can call me Gen X if you want... no hard feelings. It is just an age cohort descriptor. 😃
    I’m often described as a cross between Millennial and Gen Z in my attitudes which tells me that the categorisations are pretty meaningless. Like a lot of social constructs they are designed to control others and sow divisions. When ideas challenge our own we seek to box people in.

    I hope after the election that this country will move on from these social divisions and, albeit gradually, we begin to work together with greater mutual respect, understanding, and cohesion. Certainly we need to see an end to this 'anti-woke' and 'anti-gammon’ hatred.
    We have to be able to talk about age as it is the key indicator of wealth distribution. And I guarantee you the numbers are insane. Why should we paper over social fact or silence it.


    https://res.cloudinary.com/nimblefins/image/upload/c_limit,dpr_2.0,f_auto,h_1600,q_auto,w_1600/v1/UK/economy/Average_financial_wealth_by_age_UK

    "over-50s now hold an eye-watering 78 per cent of all the UK's privately held housing wealth, with over-65s, the wealthiest age group, owning property worth a whopping £2.587 trillion net."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/baby-boomers-property-wealth-uk-london-generation-property-gap-b1077686.html#:~:text=This data shows that over,whopping £2.587 trillion net.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,082
    Hugo Rifkind's column today accurately captures the problem

    This is not, I swear, to be a column about shoes, but we’ve had three paragraphs on them already so, hey, in for a penny loafer. So, recall that in 2022, Sunak was slammed for wearing a pair of £335 Common Projects sneakers, and Nadine Dorries once had a go at him for some £450 Prada loafers. The Samba, by contrast, is a notably populist trainer, yours for a mere £90. Sorry, I drifted into mad fashion grammar there; let’s clarify, you do get two. But he’d thought about this. There was a Shoe Strategy. And it went horribly wrong.

    Small picture, the shoes. Big picture, everything. Polls are sliding, even when you’d think they can go no lower. Flagship policies — the cut to national insurance — land to utter public indifference. Unforced errors abound. This weekend, the party withdrew a bizarre poster campaign which boasted “Britain Is the Second Most Powerful Country In The World” and showed Sunak next to a losing football team that is English rather than British anyway, a fighter jet we largely buy from America, and a Swiss/South Korean container ship. Why any container ship? Have we fierce patriotic pride in our container ships? Has somebody been sniffing glue?
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,525
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
    I’m not sure either positions have been based on fact-based analysis

    Prior to the vote everything was blamed on the EU. Now everything is blamed on Brexit.

    There have been a number of external shocks since 2016/2020. Brexit’s impact has been marginal in the scheme of things.
    Leave voters were promised unicorns and rainbows.

    Since neither have appeared, they are entitle to believe they were lied to, and change their minds
    Voters are entitled to change their minds anyway. Otherwise you get the 'one man, one vote, one time' that grumpy old imperialists and racists used to predict when European empires dissolved.

    A democracy that can't change its mind ceases to be a democracy, as David Davis said.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,082

    A democracy that can't change its mind ceases to be a democracy, as David Davis said.

    And yet, having changed our minds about Brexit, where is our opportunity to express that democratically?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
    I’m not sure either positions have been based on fact-based analysis

    Prior to the vote everything was blamed on the EU. Now everything is blamed on Brexit.

    There have been a number of external shocks since 2016/2020. Brexit’s impact has been marginal in the scheme of things.
    Leave voters were promised unicorns and rainbows.

    Since neither have appeared, they are entitle to believe they were lied to, and change their minds
    Of course they are entitled to change their minds. But the litany of media wailing has coloured perceptions. Reality and perceptions are not always aligned.

    Well, that's how we got Brexit in the first place, so nothing new.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,096

    HYUFD said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    MPs alone picked Hague, May, Major, Sunak, Thatcher and Heath and Howard on the Tory side, Foot and Brown, Wilson and Callaghan on the Labour side.

    Tory members picked IDS, Cameron, Boris and Truss. Labour members picked Kinnock, Smith, Blair, Corbyn and Starmer and David Miliband (the unions picked Ed). It is a myth MPs always get it right and members always wrong
    Indeed. Your evidence suggests that it’s only Conservative Party members who get it wrong.
    Kinnock and Corbyn were picked by Labour members
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,056
    Scott_xP said:

    I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.

    I am not sure that statement is true.

    The purgatory we are in now is we lost all the benefits of being a member and there are no benefits of being a third country.

    We spent billions on customs facilities we will never use.

    We are weaker, economically and politically then we were.

    We elected a Parliament who committed to get it done, and they are a collection of incompetent idiots, nutters, fruitcakes and swivel-eyed loons, not to mention the appalling behaviour and morals.

    Where, exactly, is the "better"?
    That is true. But the point is we are now in a known end position. For three years after the vote, we were in an unknown state: leaving-but-not-left, and unable to do much in terms of deals with other people. A deal had to be done with the EU just to get ourselves into a 'known' state. And yes, that state was very far from ideal. But it was better than being in an unknown state.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081

    Scott_xP said:

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
    I’m not sure either positions have been based on fact-based analysis

    Prior to the vote everything was blamed on the EU. Now everything is blamed on Brexit.

    There have been a number of external shocks since 2016/2020. Brexit’s impact has been marginal in the scheme of things.
    The trouble with that argument is that the external shocks affected the EU too.
    "Britain’s GDP per head has grown just 3.8 per cent since the referendum, while the EU’s has grown by 8.5 per cent."
    https://www.newstatesman.com/chart-of-the-day/2022/06/uk-economy-fallen-behind-eu-since-brexit

    I can see why you would want to argue the way you have, nobody wants to admit they
    were wrong.
    Aren’t statistics fun. But that report was as of the end of 2021.

    I guess you chose not to highlight the last 2 years because of reasons?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,096

    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
    I think that's going a little far. But I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.
    As you may know, I felt and still do that parliament should have voted through Theresa May’s deal. Economically it was better for Britain.

    Unfortunately it didn’t suit the political hardliners, illustrating the point that Brexit was never about the economic benefits for Britain.
    Of course it wasn’t.

    At the margin there is a debate on trade policy. But fundamentally the debate was whether the economic benefits were worth the political and social (net) costs.

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    Yes I remember well the Vote Leave poster "you will be poorer but it will be worth it".
    "Brexit has boosted UK wages, say economists" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/19/uk-wages-brexit-boost-leave-campaigners/
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,056
    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Boris wasn't incapable of telling the truth, then his basic instincts (whether on vaccines, Ukraine, or a realization that you had to get Brexit over the line) would have stood him in good stead.

    Getting Brexit over the line is the greatest policy disaster in living memory.

    The only reason BoZo pursued it was to get the crown, which he then befouled.
    I think that's going a little far. But I think the point is 'getting Brexit over the line' was far better than the purgatory of having voted out but not having done a deal. Even if the deal was very poor.
    As you may know, I felt and still do that parliament should have voted through Theresa May’s deal. Economically it was better for Britain.

    Unfortunately it didn’t suit the political hardliners, illustrating the point that Brexit was never about the economic benefits for Britain.
    Agree.

    I think Cameron's renegotiation was better than May's deal. And May's deal was better than Boris's. But at least we now have a deal where we can start to try to reverse some of the harm that the whole episode has caused.
  • Options
    sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 133

    HYUFD said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    MPs alone picked Hague, May, Major, Sunak, Thatcher and Heath and Howard on the Tory side, Foot and Brown, Wilson and Callaghan on the Labour side.

    Tory members picked IDS, Cameron, Boris and Truss. Labour members picked Kinnock, Smith, Blair, Corbyn and Starmer and David Miliband (the unions picked Ed). It is a myth MPs always get it right and members always wrong
    Indeed. Your evidence suggests that it’s only Conservative Party members who get it wrong.
    I'd still say, looking at those lists, that the MPs did better than the members.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
    You can call me Gen X if you want... no hard feelings. It is just an age cohort descriptor. 😃
    I’m often described as a cross between Millennial and Gen Z in my attitudes which tells me that the categorisations are pretty meaningless. Like a lot of social constructs they are designed to control others and sow divisions. When ideas challenge our own we seek to box people in.

    I hope after the election that this country will move on from these social divisions and, albeit gradually, we begin to work together with greater mutual respect, understanding, and cohesion. Certainly we need to see an end to this 'anti-woke' and 'anti-gammon’ hatred.
    We have to be able to talk about age as it is the key indicator of wealth distribution. And I guarantee you the numbers are insane. Why should we paper over social fact or silence it.


    https://res.cloudinary.com/nimblefins/image/upload/c_limit,dpr_2.0,f_auto,h_1600,q_auto,w_1600/v1/UK/economy/Average_financial_wealth_by_age_UK

    "over-50s now hold an eye-watering 78 per cent of all the UK's privately held housing wealth, with over-65s, the wealthiest age group, owning property worth a whopping £2.587 trillion net."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/baby-boomers-property-wealth-uk-london-generation-property-gap-b1077686.html#:~:text=This data shows that over,whopping £2.587 trillion net.
    When youve worked for 30+ years you tend to have accumulated wealth, Wheres the surprise ?
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081
    edited April 9
    Scott_xP said:

    A democracy that can't change its mind ceases to be a democracy, as David Davis said.

    And yet, having changed our minds about Brexit, where is our opportunity to express that democratically?
    If parliament decides it wants to have a referendum then we would get a chance to vote. Perhaps you should campaign for it?

    I suspect that Brenda from Bristol might want a word with you though

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H6-IQAdFU3w
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,748
    Scott_xP said:

    A democracy that can't change its mind ceases to be a democracy, as David Davis said.

    And yet, having changed our minds about Brexit, where is our opportunity to express that democratically?
    As the Brexit itself demonstrated, such things can take rather a long time.

    The various Brexit parties struggled to win a single seat in Parliament; the same is likely to be true of any movement built around rejoining.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758
    Scott_xP said:

    A democracy that can't change its mind ceases to be a democracy, as David Davis said.

    And yet, having changed our minds about Brexit, where is our opportunity to express that democratically?
    You have to get off your arse and create it rather than just whining.

    Ask Nigel Farage for advice.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,082

    That is true. But the point is we are now in a known end position. For three years after the vote, we were in an unknown state: leaving-but-not-left, and unable to do much in terms of deals with other people. A deal had to be done with the EU just to get ourselves into a 'known' state. And yes, that state was very far from ideal. But it was better than being in an unknown state.

    But we are not in a known end state.

    We keep not implementing anything.

    We built infrastructure for a "known" state we don't have and never will.

    We are still in purgatory.

    This is the Bad Place...
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,081
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
    I’m not sure either positions have been based on fact-based analysis

    Prior to the vote everything was blamed on the EU. Now everything is blamed on Brexit.

    There have been a number of external shocks since 2016/2020. Brexit’s impact has been marginal in the scheme of things.
    Leave voters were promised unicorns and rainbows.

    Since neither have appeared, they are entitle to believe they were lied to, and change their minds
    Of course they are entitled to change their minds. But the litany of media wailing has coloured perceptions. Reality and perceptions are not always aligned.

    Well, that's how we got Brexit in the first
    place, so nothing new.
    Which was my point.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,748
    edited April 9

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
    You can call me Gen X if you want... no hard feelings. It is just an age cohort descriptor. 😃
    I’m often described as a cross between Millennial and Gen Z in my attitudes which tells me that the categorisations are pretty meaningless. Like a lot of social constructs they are designed to control others and sow divisions. When ideas challenge our own we seek to box people in.

    I hope after the election that this country will move on from these social divisions and, albeit gradually, we begin to work together with greater mutual respect, understanding, and cohesion. Certainly we need to see an end to this 'anti-woke' and 'anti-gammon’ hatred.
    We have to be able to talk about age as it is the key indicator of wealth distribution. And I guarantee you the numbers are insane. Why should we paper over social fact or silence it.


    https://res.cloudinary.com/nimblefins/image/upload/c_limit,dpr_2.0,f_auto,h_1600,q_auto,w_1600/v1/UK/economy/Average_financial_wealth_by_age_UK

    "over-50s now hold an eye-watering 78 per cent of all the UK's privately held housing wealth, with over-65s, the wealthiest age group, owning property worth a whopping £2.587 trillion net."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/baby-boomers-property-wealth-uk-london-generation-property-gap-b1077686.html#:~:text=This data shows that over,whopping £2.587 trillion net.
    When youve worked for 30+ years you tend to have accumulated wealth, Wheres the surprise ?
    That's right - but you know, Alanb, the proportion of the country's property owned by the young has fallen substantially.

    https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/housing-needs-of-young-people/
    ..The IFS said 35% of 25- to 34-year-olds in 2017 were homeowners, a decrease from 55% in 1997. The IFS noted that the biggest fall had been seen among middle-income young adults...
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,748

    Scott_xP said:

    A democracy that can't change its mind ceases to be a democracy, as David Davis said.

    And yet, having changed our minds about Brexit, where is our opportunity to express that democratically?
    You have to get off your arse and create it rather than just whining.

    Ask Nigel Farage for advice.
    Farage spent a decade or so whining, so he has.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,507
    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    Yes - if Sunak had been a competent managerial PM, for example, the Conservatives would be doing much better.

    If such a competent managerial type had been chosen instead of Truss, there would have been a chance to win. Possibly.

    But he is a slow motion Truss.
  • Options
    CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 223

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
    You can call me Gen X if you want... no hard feelings. It is just an age cohort descriptor. 😃
    I’m often described as a cross between Millennial and Gen Z in my attitudes which tells me that the categorisations are pretty meaningless. Like a lot of social constructs they are designed to control others and sow divisions. When ideas challenge our own we seek to box people in.

    I hope after the election that this country will move on from these social divisions and, albeit gradually, we begin to work together with greater mutual respect, understanding, and cohesion. Certainly we need to see an end to this 'anti-woke' and 'anti-gammon’ hatred.
    We have to be able to talk about age as it is the key indicator of wealth distribution. And I guarantee you the numbers are insane. Why should we paper over social fact or silence it.


    https://res.cloudinary.com/nimblefins/image/upload/c_limit,dpr_2.0,f_auto,h_1600,q_auto,w_1600/v1/UK/economy/Average_financial_wealth_by_age_UK

    "over-50s now hold an eye-watering 78 per cent of all the UK's privately held housing wealth, with over-65s, the wealthiest age group, owning property worth a whopping £2.587 trillion net."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/baby-boomers-property-wealth-uk-london-generation-property-gap-b1077686.html#:~:text=This data shows that over,whopping £2.587 trillion net.
    When youve worked for 30+ years you tend to have accumulated wealth, Wheres the surprise ?
    This wealth is not the outcome of work 🤣🤣🤣🤣

    This is what happens when you buy a house for the price of a packet of cheese and onion crisps in 1983. Block the construction of homes for 40 years and then sell it for 13 times the average annual salary.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758
    edited April 9
    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
    You can call me Gen X if you want... no hard feelings. It is just an age cohort descriptor. 😃
    I’m often described as a cross between Millennial and Gen Z in my attitudes which tells me that the categorisations are pretty meaningless. Like a lot of social constructs they are designed to control others and sow divisions. When ideas challenge our own we seek to box people in.

    I hope after the election that this country will move on from these social divisions and, albeit gradually, we begin to work together with greater mutual respect, understanding, and cohesion. Certainly we need to see an end to this 'anti-woke' and 'anti-gammon’ hatred.
    We have to be able to talk about age as it is the key indicator of wealth distribution. And I guarantee you the numbers are insane. Why should we paper over social fact or silence it.


    https://res.cloudinary.com/nimblefins/image/upload/c_limit,dpr_2.0,f_auto,h_1600,q_auto,w_1600/v1/UK/economy/Average_financial_wealth_by_age_UK

    "over-50s now hold an eye-watering 78 per cent of all the UK's privately held housing wealth, with over-65s, the wealthiest age group, owning property worth a whopping £2.587 trillion net."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/baby-boomers-property-wealth-uk-london-generation-property-gap-b1077686.html#:~:text=This data shows that over,whopping £2.587 trillion net.
    When youve worked for 30+ years you tend to have accumulated wealth, Wheres the surprise ?
    That's right - but you know, Alanb, the proportion of the country's property owned by the young has fallen substantially.

    https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/housing-needs-of-young-people/
    ..The IFS said 35% of 25- to 34-year-olds in 2017 were homeowners, a decrease from 55% in 1997. The IFS noted that the biggest fall had been seen among middle-income young adults...
    Of course, thats because we dont build enough houses and infrastructure while increasing the country's population.
    If we had built houses and controlled immigation then more of our young would be accumulating wealth and the oldies wouldnt have a pile of overvalued bricks and morter. But nobody prioritised it.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
    You can call me Gen X if you want... no hard feelings. It is just an age cohort descriptor. 😃
    I’m often described as a cross between Millennial and Gen Z in my attitudes which tells me that the categorisations are pretty meaningless. Like a lot of social constructs they are designed to control others and sow divisions. When ideas challenge our own we seek to box people in.

    I hope after the election that this country will move on from these social divisions and, albeit gradually, we begin to work together with greater mutual respect, understanding, and cohesion. Certainly we need to see an end to this 'anti-woke' and 'anti-gammon’ hatred.
    We have to be able to talk about age as it is the key indicator of wealth distribution. And I guarantee you the numbers are insane. Why should we paper over social fact or silence it.


    https://res.cloudinary.com/nimblefins/image/upload/c_limit,dpr_2.0,f_auto,h_1600,q_auto,w_1600/v1/UK/economy/Average_financial_wealth_by_age_UK

    "over-50s now hold an eye-watering 78 per cent of all the UK's privately held housing wealth, with over-65s, the wealthiest age group, owning property worth a whopping £2.587 trillion net."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/baby-boomers-property-wealth-uk-london-generation-property-gap-b1077686.html#:~:text=This data shows that over,whopping £2.587 trillion net.
    When youve worked for 30+ years you tend to have accumulated wealth, Wheres the surprise ?
    The surprise is the unprecedented age gradient in wealth.

    Yesterday Nicky Campbells phone in on 5Live was about the Triple lock. There was the outstanding figure quoted that a quarter of pensioners had over a million pounds in assets. Not sure if this included pension pots or the source of the figure. I suspect that a very large proportion is mortgage free residential property.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The electorate, in their great wisdom, decided they weren’t.

    And have now decided they were wrong
    I’m not sure either positions have been based on fact-based analysis

    Prior to the vote everything was blamed on the EU. Now everything is blamed on Brexit.

    There have been a number of external shocks since 2016/2020. Brexit’s impact has been marginal in the scheme of things.
    Leave voters were promised unicorns and rainbows.

    Since neither have appeared, they are entitle to believe they were lied to, and change their minds
    Of course they are entitled to change their minds. But the litany of media wailing has coloured perceptions. Reality and perceptions are not always aligned.

    Well, that's how we got Brexit in the first
    place, so nothing new.
    Which was my point.

    If we were sold a false prospectus, then there is no shame in reversing it.

    When you are in a hole, stop digging.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,457

    Travellers move onto Tesco Extra car park in Leyland, petrol station stops taking cash

    Travellers have been ordered to leave a Tesco car park in Leyland.

    A fleet of caravans moved onto the Tesco Extra car park in Towngate on Sunday afternoon, close to the petrol station.

    It was reported to Lancashire Police and officers visited the group last night. However, the car park is private land and legal efforts must be taken to remove them.

    The Tesco website says parking at the Leyland superstore is free and unlimited, but is subject to conditions.

    Petrol - pay at pump only

    As a temporary measure, the supermarket’s petrol station is restricting payments to card only at the pumps. Cash will not be accepted until further notice, said staff.

    Tesco were approached for comment.


    https://www.lep.co.uk/news/traffic-and-travel/travellers-move-onto-tesco-car-park-petrol-station-goes-card-only-4583245

    Travellers know the law better than many lawyers do. They could be there for weeks.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
    You can call me Gen X if you want... no hard feelings. It is just an age cohort descriptor. 😃
    I’m often described as a cross between Millennial and Gen Z in my attitudes which tells me that the categorisations are pretty meaningless. Like a lot of social constructs they are designed to control others and sow divisions. When ideas challenge our own we seek to box people in.

    I hope after the election that this country will move on from these social divisions and, albeit gradually, we begin to work together with greater mutual respect, understanding, and cohesion. Certainly we need to see an end to this 'anti-woke' and 'anti-gammon’ hatred.
    We have to be able to talk about age as it is the key indicator of wealth distribution. And I guarantee you the numbers are insane. Why should we paper over social fact or silence it.


    https://res.cloudinary.com/nimblefins/image/upload/c_limit,dpr_2.0,f_auto,h_1600,q_auto,w_1600/v1/UK/economy/Average_financial_wealth_by_age_UK

    "over-50s now hold an eye-watering 78 per cent of all the UK's privately held housing wealth, with over-65s, the wealthiest age group, owning property worth a whopping £2.587 trillion net."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/baby-boomers-property-wealth-uk-london-generation-property-gap-b1077686.html#:~:text=This data shows that over,whopping £2.587 trillion net.
    When youve worked for 30+ years you tend to have accumulated wealth, Wheres the surprise ?
    This wealth is not the outcome of work 🤣🤣🤣🤣

    This is what happens when you buy a house for the price of a packet of cheese and onion crisps in 1983. Block the construction of homes for 40 years and then sell it for 13 times the average annual salary.
    Certainly. But the extreme price rises wouldnt have happened if the population wasnt increasing at an unsustainable rate. It's basic supply and demand. And no UK government has kept up to speed with housing and infrastructure as the population expanded.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    .
    Same applies to you and Trans
    (and, as I would have thought was obvious, I’m very pro trans rights so your comment is even more misdirected)
    Very telling , ok for you to pontificate constantly on your hobby horse but other people are chided by you when they do similar.
  • Options
    CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 223

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
    You can call me Gen X if you want... no hard feelings. It is just an age cohort descriptor. 😃
    I’m often described as a cross between Millennial and Gen Z in my attitudes which tells me that the categorisations are pretty meaningless. Like a lot of social constructs they are designed to control others and sow divisions. When ideas challenge our own we seek to box people in.

    I hope after the election that this country will move on from these social divisions and, albeit gradually, we begin to work together with greater mutual respect, understanding, and cohesion. Certainly we need to see an end to this 'anti-woke' and 'anti-gammon’ hatred.
    We have to be able to talk about age as it is the key indicator of wealth distribution. And I guarantee you the numbers are insane. Why should we paper over social fact or silence it.


    https://res.cloudinary.com/nimblefins/image/upload/c_limit,dpr_2.0,f_auto,h_1600,q_auto,w_1600/v1/UK/economy/Average_financial_wealth_by_age_UK

    "over-50s now hold an eye-watering 78 per cent of all the UK's privately held housing wealth, with over-65s, the wealthiest age group, owning property worth a whopping £2.587 trillion net."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/baby-boomers-property-wealth-uk-london-generation-property-gap-b1077686.html#:~:text=This data shows that over,whopping £2.587 trillion net.
    When youve worked for 30+ years you tend to have accumulated wealth, Wheres the surprise ?
    It is these kinds of comments that enrage younger age cohorts.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    A democracy that can't change its mind ceases to be a democracy, as David Davis said.

    And yet, having changed our minds about Brexit, where is our opportunity to express that democratically?
    You have to get off your arse and create it rather than just whining.

    Ask Nigel Farage for advice.
    Farage spent a decade or so whining, so he has.
    He did more than just whine, he pressurise the Tories on a vote.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    ToryJim said:

    Whilst it is easy to see Boris’ party problems as being a factor, indeed they certainly undermined the Conservative position, I personally don’t think it was irreversible. The fatal error was made by Conservative members who chose the wrong replacement for Boris. It was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that Truss was an utterly abysmal candidate who didn’t have the first clue. That her brief premiership was an ocean going clusterfuck was predictable and fairly well predicted. After that calling up the Archangel Gabriel wasn’t going to help the Conservative Party.

    Once the inevitable election defeat occurs then clearly new leadership will be necessary, but any candidate who doesn’t tell the membership the truths they need to hear isn’t going to be worth bothering with. We now have object lessons from either side of the political divide in the dangers of allowing members too much say in the choice of leader. If you look at the experience of both parties since giving members their head in leadership elections it’s a succession of absolute duds with the very occasional half decent choice.

    I get your point on members choosing duds, but it was MPs that gave them the choice between Truss and Sunak. Similarly it was MPs that added Corbyn to the shortlist.
    Corbyn and the popcons are all cut from the same eu hating boomer cloth. 30p Lee.was campaigning for corbyn just a few years ago. The boomer working class vote went all the way out on the left and came out all the way on the right (the political spectrum went full circle) and now the tories and reform have their own unpragmatic ideological headache to work with
    Your posts would work so much better if you didn’t use ‘boomer’ in every sentence. It’s not so much the repetition but the air of throwaway disdain that seems to come with it?

    True, I’ve occasionally used the word ‘gammon’ with equal opprobrium, but I do so sparingly and only when riled.

    There are plenty from either demographic who have worked hard and given good service. The systemic problems of this country cannot be laid at the feet of one or other group and we risk falling into the trap of what I mentioned here yesterday, namely scapegoating.
    You can call me Gen X if you want... no hard feelings. It is just an age cohort descriptor. 😃
    I’m often described as a cross between Millennial and Gen Z in my attitudes which tells me that the categorisations are pretty meaningless. Like a lot of social constructs they are designed to control others and sow divisions. When ideas challenge our own we seek to box people in.

    I hope after the election that this country will move on from these social divisions and, albeit gradually, we begin to work together with greater mutual respect, understanding, and cohesion. Certainly we need to see an end to this 'anti-woke' and 'anti-gammon’ hatred.
    We have to be able to talk about age as it is the key indicator of wealth distribution. And I guarantee you the numbers are insane. Why should we paper over social fact or silence it.


    https://res.cloudinary.com/nimblefins/image/upload/c_limit,dpr_2.0,f_auto,h_1600,q_auto,w_1600/v1/UK/economy/Average_financial_wealth_by_age_UK

    "over-50s now hold an eye-watering 78 per cent of all the UK's privately held housing wealth, with over-65s, the wealthiest age group, owning property worth a whopping £2.587 trillion net."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/baby-boomers-property-wealth-uk-london-generation-property-gap-b1077686.html#:~:text=This data shows that over,whopping £2.587 trillion net.
    When youve worked for 30+ years you tend to have accumulated wealth, Wheres the surprise ?
    The surprise is the unprecedented age gradient in wealth.

    Yesterday Nicky Campbells phone in on 5Live was about the Triple lock. There was the outstanding figure quoted that a quarter of pensioners had over a million pounds in assets. Not sure if this included pension pots or the source of the figure. I suspect that a very large proportion is mortgage free residential property.
    Quite obviously will be mainly pensioners with properties in London and south who may well have little to no actual money.
This discussion has been closed.