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The worst appointment since Incitatus – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,442
    Foxy said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Good morning to one and all!
    All sorts of things concerning us today aren’t there! Do I gather that Leon has either flounced or been banned?
    I am somewhat bothered, though, by the fact that the BBC website has its main feature, the covering over of some graffiti, allegedly, by Banksy.

    I get "Public satisfaction with NHS at lowest ever level, survey shows" as the lead item when I go to the BBC.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68669866

    Makes me wonder, are the BBC tailoring their feed to some big data assessment of your concerns? And if so, why are you so concerned about lost Banksies OKC?
    Time to privatise the NHS, Andy Burnham was right when he was Health Secretary to privatise the NHS.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/who-privatised-hinchingbrooke-hospital-and-does-it-matter/
    Or just get rid of the Tories. NHS satisfaction was 70% in 2010.
    And NHS employment was half a million lower.

    Still I look forward to all the people claiming 'everything is broken' changing their line after they think a suitable amount of Labour government has passed.
    I thought you Tories were all for value for money and in particular optimum personal productivity. You Tories seem to have dropped the ball and have far more people doing far less. For goodness sake shape up!
    Variations of this glib style response seem to have a panicky undertone.

    A horrified acceptance perhaps that more money and more people (both of which unlikely to be available in any case) aren't going to solve the nation's health problems.

    Meaning that Starmer, Reeves and Streeting are going to have to find ways of increasing NHS productivity.

    Which means more output from the same level of input.

    They'll need more than good luck to achieve that.

    These it seems are going to be Streeting's long term strategies:

    "from an excessive focus on hospital care to more focus on neighbourhood and community services; from an analogue service to one that embraces the technological revolution; and from sickness to prevention."

    All very well meaning but will face NHS inertial opposition, will take many years to be implemented and then many more years for any positive results to show.
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/02/04/the-state-of-process-the-process-state/
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/03/08/we-need-more-bureaucracy/

    Imagine the fun politics of investing less in nurses (say) and more in testing technology, so that in 5 years time, test will come back 38% faster on average.

    Or spending less on the NHS itself and more on hospice style beds for elderly people, so that they aren't occupying hospital beds?

    Or more on admin staff, and less on nurses?

    Or a Vitality style scheme - less nurses, but spend the money on free cinema tickets for those who do a demonstrable amount of exercise per week?
    I'd be curious if anyone has done any morbid mathematics to determine whether exercise actually does reduce cost to the Exchequer over the long-term, its quite possibly the opposite.

    I recall a statistic that smoking is good for the Exchequer, despite the vast cost of smoking-related illnesses on the NHS, not simply because of the duties on tobacco, but because smokers die younger they claim less in pensions so the Exchequer ends up better off net.
    Exercise is almost certainly a net benefit, as it will reduce the incidence of costly chronic disease.
    Smoking is good as it reduces lifespan sufficiently to save more on geriatric healthcare than it costs in treating smoking related diseases..

    There's probably a degree of uncertainty about longer term effects on the cost of geriatric medicine - but we'll only find out long after any such scheme is implemented in a large scale.
    The ideal is probably someone like my paternal grandmother, who died at age 86 in her sleep having been independent and on - I think - no medications and with only one hospital stay about 8 years earlier for a broken hip after being hit by a car.

    I'm not quite sure how we engineer that, though. My dad is currently 81 and has statins, but that is it. As far as I know, he's never had a hospital admission, so we probably need some selective breeding :wink: (My mum has long term illness with multiple hospital admissions and frequent outpatient visits and is only mid-70s; her mum also had illness for the last five years of her life)
    Disability Free life expectancy at age 65 is about 10 years across most of the UK. It correlates quite well with income, so for the average PBer, 80 years is pretty much par.
    I guess my gran could have made it to 96 had she been well off :wink:
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    edited March 27

    Foxy said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Good morning to one and all!
    All sorts of things concerning us today aren’t there! Do I gather that Leon has either flounced or been banned?
    I am somewhat bothered, though, by the fact that the BBC website has its main feature, the covering over of some graffiti, allegedly, by Banksy.

    I get "Public satisfaction with NHS at lowest ever level, survey shows" as the lead item when I go to the BBC.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68669866

    Makes me wonder, are the BBC tailoring their feed to some big data assessment of your concerns? And if so, why are you so concerned about lost Banksies OKC?
    Time to privatise the NHS, Andy Burnham was right when he was Health Secretary to privatise the NHS.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/who-privatised-hinchingbrooke-hospital-and-does-it-matter/
    Or just get rid of the Tories. NHS satisfaction was 70% in 2010.
    And NHS employment was half a million lower.

    Still I look forward to all the people claiming 'everything is broken' changing their line after they think a suitable amount of Labour government has passed.
    I thought you Tories were all for value for money and in particular optimum personal productivity. You Tories seem to have dropped the ball and have far more people doing far less. For goodness sake shape up!
    Variations of this glib style response seem to have a panicky undertone.

    A horrified acceptance perhaps that more money and more people (both of which unlikely to be available in any case) aren't going to solve the nation's health problems.

    Meaning that Starmer, Reeves and Streeting are going to have to find ways of increasing NHS productivity.

    Which means more output from the same level of input.

    They'll need more than good luck to achieve that.

    These it seems are going to be Streeting's long term strategies:

    "from an excessive focus on hospital care to more focus on neighbourhood and community services; from an analogue service to one that embraces the technological revolution; and from sickness to prevention."

    All very well meaning but will face NHS inertial opposition, will take many years to be implemented and then many more years for any positive results to show.
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/02/04/the-state-of-process-the-process-state/
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/03/08/we-need-more-bureaucracy/

    Imagine the fun politics of investing less in nurses (say) and more in testing technology, so that in 5 years time, test will come back 38% faster on average.

    Or spending less on the NHS itself and more on hospice style beds for elderly people, so that they aren't occupying hospital beds?

    Or more on admin staff, and less on nurses?

    Or a Vitality style scheme - less nurses, but spend the money on free cinema tickets for those who do a demonstrable amount of exercise per week?
    I'd be curious if anyone has done any morbid mathematics to determine whether exercise actually does reduce cost to the Exchequer over the long-term, its quite possibly the opposite.

    I recall a statistic that smoking is good for the Exchequer, despite the vast cost of smoking-related illnesses on the NHS, not simply because of the duties on tobacco, but because smokers die younger they claim less in pensions so the Exchequer ends up better off net.
    Exercise is almost certainly a net benefit, as it will reduce the incidence of costly chronic disease.
    Smoking is good as it reduces lifespan sufficiently to save more on geriatric healthcare than it costs in treating smoking related diseases..

    There's probably a degree of uncertainty about longer term effects on the cost of geriatric medicine - but we'll only find out long after any such scheme is implemented in a large scale.
    The ideal is probably someone like my paternal grandmother, who died at age 86 in her sleep having been independent and on - I think - no medications and with only one hospital stay about 8 years earlier for a broken hip after being hit by a car.

    I'm not quite sure how we engineer that, though. My dad is currently 81 and has statins, but that is it. As far as I know, he's never had a hospital admission, so we probably need some selective breeding :wink: (My mum has long term illness with multiple hospital admissions and frequent outpatient visits and is only mid-70s; her mum also had illness for the last five years of her life)
    Disability Free life expectancy at age 65 is about 10 years across most of the UK. It correlates quite well with income, so for the average PBer, 80 years is pretty much par.
    *checks disabilities*
    *looks at the numbers beginning 5 on latest birthday card*
    *has a little cry*
    I've just turned 57.

    My dad died at 57.

    I'm living in the moment.
    Not liking for losing your Dad, liking for the moment!
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,955

    Btw, how was your Cheltenham? It was the first I missed since 1986. There were personal reasons, but I find the expense and relatively uncompetetive racing are serious disincentives these days. I am not sure I will be returning.

    Ah, I did look for you and wondered.

    It is a very expensive day out, but I found the relative quiet made it a more pleasant experience overall.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Good morning to one and all!
    All sorts of things concerning us today aren’t there! Do I gather that Leon has either flounced or been banned?
    I am somewhat bothered, though, by the fact that the BBC website has its main feature, the covering over of some graffiti, allegedly, by Banksy.

    I get "Public satisfaction with NHS at lowest ever level, survey shows" as the lead item when I go to the BBC.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68669866

    Makes me wonder, are the BBC tailoring their feed to some big data assessment of your concerns? And if so, why are you so concerned about lost Banksies OKC?
    Time to privatise the NHS, Andy Burnham was right when he was Health Secretary to privatise the NHS.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/who-privatised-hinchingbrooke-hospital-and-does-it-matter/
    Or just get rid of the Tories. NHS satisfaction was 70% in 2010.
    And NHS employment was half a million lower.

    Still I look forward to all the people claiming 'everything is broken' changing their line after they think a suitable amount of Labour government has passed.
    I thought you Tories were all for value for money and in particular optimum personal productivity. You Tories seem to have dropped the ball and have far more people doing far less. For goodness sake shape up!
    Variations of this glib style response seem to have a panicky undertone.

    A horrified acceptance perhaps that more money and more people (both of which unlikely to be available in any case) aren't going to solve the nation's health problems.

    Meaning that Starmer, Reeves and Streeting are going to have to find ways of increasing NHS productivity.

    Which means more output from the same level of input.

    They'll need more than good luck to achieve that.

    These it seems are going to be Streeting's long term strategies:

    "from an excessive focus on hospital care to more focus on neighbourhood and community services; from an analogue service to one that embraces the technological revolution; and from sickness to prevention."

    All very well meaning but will face NHS inertial opposition, will take many years to be implemented and then many more years for any positive results to show.
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/02/04/the-state-of-process-the-process-state/
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/03/08/we-need-more-bureaucracy/

    Imagine the fun politics of investing less in nurses (say) and more in testing technology, so that in 5 years time, test will come back 38% faster on average.

    Or spending less on the NHS itself and more on hospice style beds for elderly people, so that they aren't occupying hospital beds?

    Or more on admin staff, and less on nurses?

    Or a Vitality style scheme - less nurses, but spend the money on free cinema tickets for those who do a demonstrable amount of exercise per week?
    I'd be curious if anyone has done any morbid mathematics to determine whether exercise actually does reduce cost to the Exchequer over the long-term, its quite possibly the opposite.

    I recall a statistic that smoking is good for the Exchequer, despite the vast cost of smoking-related illnesses on the NHS, not simply because of the duties on tobacco, but because smokers die younger they claim less in pensions so the Exchequer ends up better off net.
    Exercise is almost certainly a net benefit, as it will reduce the incidence of costly chronic disease.
    Smoking is good as it reduces lifespan sufficiently to save more on geriatric healthcare than it costs in treating smoking related diseases..

    There's probably a degree of uncertainty about longer term effects on the cost of geriatric medicine - but we'll only find out long after any such scheme is implemented in a large scale.
    The ideal is probably someone like my paternal grandmother, who died at age 86 in her sleep having been independent and on - I think - no medications and with only one hospital stay about 8 years earlier for a broken hip after being hit by a car.

    I'm not quite sure how we engineer that, though. My dad is currently 81 and has statins, but that is it. As far as I know, he's never had a hospital admission, so we probably need some selective breeding :wink: (My mum has long term illness with multiple hospital admissions and frequent outpatient visits and is only mid-70s; her mum also had illness for the last five years of her life)
    Disability Free life expectancy at age 65 is about 10 years across most of the UK. It correlates quite well with income, so for the average PBer, 80 years is pretty much par.
    *checks disabilities*
    *looks at the numbers beginning 5 on latest birthday card*
    *has a little cry*
    And of course disability doesn't make life a burden, just needing adaptions.
    No, I know, I just get wistful occasionally. Of course I'm also incredibly cantankerous and planning on seeing us settle Mars so I can say how rubbish it looks and isn't a patch on 70s Norwich.
    Or something.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,620

    Leon said:

    Seriously. Look at the prices for averagely poor Japanese food at schiphol. A so called bento box, with a dozen sad pieces of sushi. How much is that in the UK? £8? £12 absolute max at Pret?

    €30 here

    Really really bad sandwiches are £7-£10



    It would be ok if the food was superb. It’s not, it’s obviously bad. Weird

    The entire GDP growth in the West is based on Airport and Train Station prices
    FACT
    Railway Station. Railway Station.
  • Options
    Got Lib Dem leaflets through the door again this weekend, for the local elections. Again nothing NIMBY on them, so I think I might vote for them again this year.

    Am curious though, the Focus leaflet had the flagship headline that the Lib Dems had supported extra money in the Council to fix potholes in the roads, with a picture of an LD Councillor next to a car getting its tyre changed, and that the Conservatives in the Council had voted against that.

    A few months ago I had LD canvassers knock on the door and ask what I thought should be done to improve the area, I said that the roads need improving.

    Curious if that's a coincidence, or if I'm now on an LD database and getting a Focus leaflet targeted to me, while someone else would get a Focus leaflet trumpeting some other policy.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    ToryJim said:

    GIN1138 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Can anyone make sense of this?

    John Curtice says there is a 99% chance of Labour forming the next administration

    https://twitter.com/Richard_Hayton/status/1772681460916359201

    While Hills have Rishi as PM after the General Election at 6/1.

    That's a bookie fishing for the muggiest of mug money.

    I wonder what they offer on SKS?
    1/7. Value?
    IMO, yes. You're almost down to 'actuarial risk' with Starmer now.
    Still a risk Tories swap Sunak again. I mean it seems mad but hard to rule it out when Liz Truss, JRM et al involved.
    Sunak is doing such an appalling job its not remotely mad to replace him.

    The idea that just because they've swapped leaders already they can't do so again is simply an example of the Sunk Cost Fallacy. Perhaps we should rename it the Sunak Cost Fallacy.
    I am increasingly coming around to the idea that the Tories have nothing to lose by getting rid of Sunak - It can't possibly get any worse?

    That ridiculous attack ad for the London Mayoralty was the final straw for me. The Tories should use the time Squatter Sunak is trying to string out for himself to roll the dice one last time and get rid...
    Yes.

    Unless the next one is even worse, in which case they shouldn't. What is the record of the Conservative Party choosing new leaders? They won't want a Liz Truss, who tanked the polls, or a Theresa May who underperformed the polls and turned a landslide into a hung parliament, or a David Cameron for the same reason. What the blue team needs is a new Boris because the old one is off the table and there probably isn't one.

    Sticking with Rishi might still be the party's best bet.
    It almost certainly is, no guarantee a leadership change wouldn’t backfire. Even if they found someone with superhuman political skills and appeal I doubt they’d move the needle. The more serious option might be to send a delegation to demand he stop delaying the election. Deciding yourself when the guillotine falls is probably better than it looming over you with ever increasing menace.
    The point of delaying is to allow time for some sort of black swan to happen with Labour. I think that's what it boils down to. There's nothing the Tories can do on their side.
  • Options

    Leon said:

    Seriously. Look at the prices for averagely poor Japanese food at schiphol. A so called bento box, with a dozen sad pieces of sushi. How much is that in the UK? £8? £12 absolute max at Pret?

    €30 here

    Really really bad sandwiches are £7-£10



    It would be ok if the food was superb. It’s not, it’s obviously bad. Weird

    The entire GDP growth in the West is based on Airport and Train Station prices
    FACT
    Railway Station. Railway Station.
    You call it a bus stop, not a road stop, so why not a train station?
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,955
    Leon said:

    Schiphol is a massive overpriced Gatwick. KLM Biz Class is desperately mediocre, but you still get that stupid ceramic house with gin inside

    That is my opinion of the morning

    When I was working in Sweden the connecting flights were through Schipol, until somebody realised we could use Brussels instead. That's a great airport for transit.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,442

    Got Lib Dem leaflets through the door again this weekend, for the local elections. Again nothing NIMBY on them, so I think I might vote for them again this year.

    Am curious though, the Focus leaflet had the flagship headline that the Lib Dems had supported extra money in the Council to fix potholes in the roads, with a picture of an LD Councillor next to a car getting its tyre changed, and that the Conservatives in the Council had voted against that.

    A few months ago I had LD canvassers knock on the door and ask what I thought should be done to improve the area, I said that the roads need improving.

    Curious if that's a coincidence, or if I'm now on an LD database and getting a Focus leaflet targeted to me, while someone else would get a Focus leaflet trumpeting some other policy.

    When you get the pro-Brexit LD leaflet, you'll have proof of their data-driven skullduggery! :wink:
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,820
    edited March 27
    The odd thing is, I didn't think Sunak was too bad at the start. He made a few decent calls when it came to clearing up the messes left by Johnson and Truss, but somehow it's all fallen apart in the past year.

    Was is when he changed strategy from being a competent if rather dull manager to doing all the negative/culture wars stuff? The culmination of which is the appalling attack ad for the London Mayoralty.

    It seems to me he alone has turned what could have been a reasonable defeat and Con still in the game for 2029 into a potential extinction event.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,994
    Trent said:

    Barnesian said:

    Trent said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    It’s Trump isn’t it? People are scared this might somehow “benefit Trump” if it turns out to be sabotage so they are insanely allergic to the notion

    Get a grip

    Its Trump derangement syndrome. Im convinced the covid lockdowns only went on as long as they did in some areas of the US because people wanted to stick it to Trump.
    I’m still shocked by this amazing statistic

    https://unherd.com/newsroom/six-in-10-democrats-believe-covid-19-pandemic-isnt-over/

    lol. If this is China and Russia driving America insane they are doing a bang up job
    To be fair they are not wrong.

    Covid is now an endemic disease but I wouldn’t expect the average punter to do strong Josh between endemic and pandemic.

    But we have tools to manage it, and so we don’t need to reach in the extreme way we did 4 years ago
    Also, TBF, the line between epidemic/pandemic and endemic isn't a particularly clear one.

    We talk about flu seasonal flu epidemics, even is they're of fairly low severity.
    And novel variants of Covid are still reinfecting people worldwide, so it's really semantics as to whether it's now a low level
    pandemic, or
    epidemic.
    With flu it’s a different virus each year which is why it is an epidemic not an endemic disease

    That's why I said 'novel variants'.

    I agree with Foxy that it's endemic, FWIW. But it's not obviously absurd for someone to think it's still a low level pandemic.
    I find it surprising when people who are poorly are still doing Covid tests. These days, when I have had a virus I am just fussed about the symptoms and getting better, not which bug has caused it.
    I must say that when several people I know through work have been off ill with Covid recently the thing I was most surprised about was that they knew they had it. I think the last of our tests went out of date some time ago. Unless you work in the NHS I am really not sure where you would get them.
    Perhaps Manflu has now been superseded by ManCovid?
    Covid explains a lot of what is going on in society. It damages the frontal lobe, causing impulsively, aggression, poor decision making and loss of empathy. In the long term that may well be the worst effect of the pandemic.

    "These findings also have broader implications for all of society. Severe COVID-19 (hospitalized patients on ventilators) has been associated with 70 and corresponds to a 7-point decline in IQ. For those treated at home with uncomplicated respiratory symptoms, the decline approximated an average of a little over 1 IQ point (calculated from Figure 2 in the paper). Unfortunately, repeated infections can cause additive damage in those with long COVID-19; thus, even small decreases in IQ may become substantial."

    https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/view/covid-19-traffic-accidents-covid-19-personality-disorder-caused-viral-damage-prefrontal-cortex-
    What percent of the population were actually infected with covid in your view. This is shocking news for society if true.
    The IQ of AI is increasing at a faster rate than the decline in human IQ, so together we'll be fine.
    Sounds like a recipe for a fystopian nightmare.
    Evolution depends not on competition but cooperation between disparate parts, and results in enhanced function. I can't wait.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934

    Leon said:

    Seriously. Look at the prices for averagely poor Japanese food at schiphol. A so called bento box, with a dozen sad pieces of sushi. How much is that in the UK? £8? £12 absolute max at Pret?

    €30 here

    Really really bad sandwiches are £7-£10



    It would be ok if the food was superb. It’s not, it’s obviously bad. Weird

    The entire GDP growth in the West is based on Airport and Train Station prices
    FACT
    Railway Station. Railway Station.
    I like to get at least one thing wrong per post
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,407
    ToryJim said:
    It all sounds rather pointlessly icky. Why would you want to eat sushi off a scantily clad man and woman? Wouldn't it be better, and indeed racier, to have scantily-clad sushi-servers moving around? This is just a vulgar display of wealth and power. These people are arranged as human tables not because it is attractive but because someone has paid them enough money to do it.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    kinabalu said:

    ToryJim said:

    GIN1138 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Can anyone make sense of this?

    John Curtice says there is a 99% chance of Labour forming the next administration

    https://twitter.com/Richard_Hayton/status/1772681460916359201

    While Hills have Rishi as PM after the General Election at 6/1.

    That's a bookie fishing for the muggiest of mug money.

    I wonder what they offer on SKS?
    1/7. Value?
    IMO, yes. You're almost down to 'actuarial risk' with Starmer now.
    Still a risk Tories swap Sunak again. I mean it seems mad but hard to rule it out when Liz Truss, JRM et al involved.
    Sunak is doing such an appalling job its not remotely mad to replace him.

    The idea that just because they've swapped leaders already they can't do so again is simply an example of the Sunk Cost Fallacy. Perhaps we should rename it the Sunak Cost Fallacy.
    I am increasingly coming around to the idea that the Tories have nothing to lose by getting rid of Sunak - It can't possibly get any worse?

    That ridiculous attack ad for the London Mayoralty was the final straw for me. The Tories should use the time Squatter Sunak is trying to string out for himself to roll the dice one last time and get rid...
    Yes.

    Unless the next one is even worse, in which case they shouldn't. What is the record of the Conservative Party choosing new leaders? They won't want a Liz Truss, who tanked the polls, or a Theresa May who underperformed the polls and turned a landslide into a hung parliament, or a David Cameron for the same reason. What the blue team needs is a new Boris because the old one is off the table and there probably isn't one.

    Sticking with Rishi might still be the party's best bet.
    It almost certainly is, no guarantee a leadership change wouldn’t backfire. Even if they found someone with superhuman political skills and appeal I doubt they’d move the needle. The more serious option might be to send a delegation to demand he stop delaying the election. Deciding yourself when the guillotine falls is probably better than it looming over you with ever increasing menace.
    The point of delaying is to allow time for some sort of black swan to happen with Labour. I think that's what it boils down to. There's nothing the Tories can do on their side.
    Yep. Penny the Sword will, for example, allow this latest EDM on Starmer/Hoylegate in the hope of sewing some chaos and tarnishing the milquetoast old bore
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,339
    edited March 27
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    I see Andy Cooke is saying that LibDems in Didcot and Wantage are scrupulous about bar charts. I actually received one of them this week - it's the most distorted bar chart that I've ever seen. It's also effectively about a different constituency, as D&W has lost 15,000 mostly Tory and LibDem rural voters from the old Wantage seat. And it's from 2019.

    As in mid-Beds, it's a real problem in partly rural seats that LibDems feel they own the right to oppose the Tories, but the effect is that where there's a major swing to Labour it gets put at risk by LibDem leaflets that falsely purport to show it's not happening. There certainly are seats where the LibDems are the only serious challengers to the Tories - I can think of two in Surrey that I know very well. But they don't do their cause any good by trying the same tactic in seats that are effectively three-way marginals.

    I'm chair of D&W Labour, and it's now a Labour target, so I'll be spending all my time here until the election. Perhaps Andy and I can have a PB bet on the outcome.




    @NickPalmer can you explain why Labour are canvassing and leafleting in Guildford and the leaflet has a bar chart on it with Lab on on 33%, Tories 31% and LD on 30%?

    Does that beat your most distorted bar chart you have ever seen?

    These sort of tactics could cause the Tories to hold on against the LDs in Guildford and one can only assume these are Lab tactics here. Why are they doing it? What the hell is the point? Why don't they fight somewhere where their leaflets and canvassing will do some good?
    I might also add next to the bar chart it says:

    'The other parties would have you believe that Labour is not in the race in Guildford. Beware of dodgy Lib Dem statistics.'

    The irony of the 2nd sentence just makes you choke on your cornflakes being next to the bar chart.

    So Labour should put its own house in order before preaching to the LDs. At least in the cases cited the LDs are actually challengers in the case of Guildford Labour are just spoilers plain and simple.
    There are really three separate issues - how the parties get on with each other, whether the leaflets are fair, and whether national parties should reinforce one place or another.

    Re 1: I don't know much about Guildford Labour and haven't seen their leaflet, though I'm aware that the fact that the LibDems brought Labour into the LD-led coalition in Waverley has kept Labour's leaflets there restrained, whereas in Guildford Labour has been kept outside, or maybe wanted to be (I don't know the history). Godalming Labour is annoyed by the LD tactic of asking Labour voters to "lend" their support and then next time using it as evidence that Labour support is weak, but because relations are generally amicable we swallow it without going overboard in retaliation

    Re 2: I think that local parties will always want to use the most helpful evidence to boost their cause, and it's unrealistic to think that they'll all go off and help somewhere else. But that doesn't excuse deliberate manipulation.

    Re 3: More generally, national and regional parties have to make an objective decision on which seats are most promising in terms of shovelling money and resources. In the seats that I know personally, I'd think that further LD resources are well-invested in Godalming and Ash but the big Labour push coming in Didcot and Wantage objectively makes that a less promising target for the LDs. The position for Labour is the converse. That's separate from what we may feel about individual leaflets and tactics.

    Andy: would you like a £10 bet on whether Labour or LibDems will come higher in Didcot and Wantage? Winner donates to charity of the loser's choice.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,955
    @RedfieldWilton
    The UK Government holds negative net approval ratings on ALL issues polled.

    UK Government Policy Approval Ratings (24 March):

    Coronavirus -3%
    Defence -6%
    Foreign policy -9%
    Education -16%
    Crime -22%
    Economy -23% 👈
    Housing -31%
    Immigration -36% 👈
    NHS -36% 👈
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,231
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Schiphol is a massive overpriced Gatwick. KLM Biz Class is desperately mediocre, but you still get that stupid ceramic house with gin inside

    That is my opinion of the morning

    When I was working in Sweden the connecting flights were through Schipol, until somebody realised we could use Brussels instead. That's a great airport for transit.
    I will never diss Heathrow again. Indeed my schiphol experience is making me look more kindly on stansted. Or nairobi

    It’s understaffed and overpriced and there isn’t a bar in the terminal. Huge queues for everything especially McDonalds as it’s the only food source which doesn’t charge £700 for a bad sandwich

    Weirdly weirdly poor

    And biz class on KLM was several tiers below their “partner” Air France. It was more likel flying Biz Class on as aspiring airline from South America

    I wonder if Air France are deliberately running down KLM so they can eventually absorb it - loss making! - and get rid of the brand
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,407

    Leon said:

    Seriously. Look at the prices for averagely poor Japanese food at schiphol. A so called bento box, with a dozen sad pieces of sushi. How much is that in the UK? £8? £12 absolute max at Pret?

    €30 here

    Really really bad sandwiches are £7-£10



    It would be ok if the food was superb. It’s not, it’s obviously bad. Weird

    The entire GDP growth in the West is based on Airport and Train Station prices
    FACT
    Railway Station. Railway Station.
    You call it a bus stop, not a road stop, so why not a train station?
    It's a station. Petrol stations are garages, and bus stations are bus garages. Stations have trains. At least, that's how it used to be and how it should be. Jumpers for goalposts...
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    GIN1138 said:

    The odd thing is, I didn't think Sunak was too bad at the start. He made a few decent calls when it came to clearing up the messes left by Johnson and Truss, but somehow it's all fallen apart in the past year.

    Was is when he changed strategy from being a competent if rather dull manager to doing all the negative/culture wars stuff? The culmination of which is the appalling attack ad for the London Mayoralty.

    It seems to me he alone has turned what could have been a reasonable defeat and Con still in the game for 2029 into a potential extinction event.

    He's got desperate for a poll changer and thus lost sight of just doing a Gordon and 'getting on with yadda yadda yadda', unfortunately the only people that will now shift his polling are the 2019 Tory to DKs and scared of Reds under the Beds who won't bother making any thought on it until there is a date to focus on
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,442

    ToryJim said:
    It all sounds rather pointlessly icky. Why would you want to eat sushi off a scantily clad man and woman? Wouldn't it be better, and indeed racier, to have scantily-clad sushi-servers moving around? This is just a vulgar display of wealth and power. These people are arranged as human tables not because it is attractive but because someone has paid them enough money to do it.
    Race to the bottom :hushed:
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,231
    edited March 27

    ToryJim said:
    It all sounds rather pointlessly icky. Why would you want to eat sushi off a scantily clad man and woman? Wouldn't it be better, and indeed racier, to have scantily-clad sushi-servers moving around? This is just a vulgar display of wealth and power. These people are arranged as human tables not because it is attractive but because someone has paid them enough money to do it.
    It’s a well known erotic byway. Started in Japan (obvs) but is popular amongst kinksters in the west

    The women volunteer and get aroused by being objectified

    They are almost certainly naked not scantily clad, the latter wouid be RIDIC
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934

    GIN1138 said:

    The odd thing is, I didn't think Sunak was too bad at the start. He made a few decent calls when it came to clearing up the messes left by Johnson and Truss, but somehow it's all fallen apart in the past year.

    Was is when he changed strategy from being a competent if rather dull manager to doing all the negative/culture wars stuff? The culmination of which is the appalling attack ad for the London Mayoralty.

    It seems to me he alone has turned what could have been a reasonable defeat and Con still in the game for 2029 into a potential extinction event.

    He's got desperate for a poll changer and thus lost sight of just doing a Gordon and 'getting on with yadda yadda yadda', unfortunately the only people that will now shift his polling are the 2019 Tory to DKs and scared of Reds under the Beds who won't bother making any thought on it until there is a date to focus on
    Having said that yesterday's 'triple lock for a decade' might firm up and stabilise his pitifully low core
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,994

    Got Lib Dem leaflets through the door again this weekend, for the local elections. Again nothing NIMBY on them, so I think I might vote for them again this year.

    Am curious though, the Focus leaflet had the flagship headline that the Lib Dems had supported extra money in the Council to fix potholes in the roads, with a picture of an LD Councillor next to a car getting its tyre changed, and that the Conservatives in the Council had voted against that.

    A few months ago I had LD canvassers knock on the door and ask what I thought should be done to improve the area, I said that the roads need improving.

    Curious if that's a coincidence, or if I'm now on an LD database and getting a Focus leaflet targeted to me, while someone else would get a Focus leaflet trumpeting some other policy.

    You might get a targeted letter but not a targeted leaflet - too expensive.

    Most people say the roads need improving. You are not alone.
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    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    GIN1138 said:

    The odd thing is, I didn't think Sunak was too bad at the start. He made a few decent calls when it came to clearing up the messes left by Johnson and Truss, but somehow it's all fallen apart in the past year.

    Was is when he changed strategy from being a competent if rather dull manager to doing all the negative/culture wars stuff? The culmination of which is the appalling attack ad for the London Mayoralty.

    It seems to me he alone has turned what could have been a reasonable defeat and Con still in the game for 2029 into a potential extinction event.

    The turning point seems to have been the Uxbridge by-election - the Tories' unexpected win convinced Sunak to abandon the dull, competent approach and start taking "initiatives" most of which were ill thought out and often counter-productive. So he floundered around on green issues, losing an MP and upsetting business in the process. He then cancelled the northern leg of HS2, making the government look inconsistent and again upsetting some business lobbies. And of course there is the Rwanda debacle, which has served to focus attention on immigration policy, which is one of the government's greatest failures.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    GIN1138 said:

    The odd thing is, I didn't think Sunak was too bad at the start. He made a few decent calls when it came to clearing up the messes left by Johnson and Truss, but somehow it's all fallen apart in the past year.

    Was is when he changed strategy from being a competent if rather dull manager to doing all the negative/culture wars stuff? The culmination of which is the appalling attack ad for the London Mayoralty.

    It seems to me he alone has turned what could have been a reasonable defeat and Con still in the game for 2029 into a potential extinction event.

    Yes he's been weak, his inexperience manifesting as callowness. I expected more of him. I wonder how he'd have done if they'd chosen him instead of Truss the first time around? Rather better (but still without a chance of winning the next election) is my feeling. He doesn't have the ability to connect with people and politics is a tough old game if you don't have that.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,981
    Leon said:

    Seriously. Look at the prices for averagely poor Japanese food at schiphol. A so called bento box, with a dozen sad pieces of sushi. How much is that in the UK? £8? £12 absolute max at Pret?

    €30 here

    Really really bad sandwiches are £7-£10



    It would be ok if the food was superb. It’s not, it’s obviously bad. Weird

    Wtf are you doing at Schiphol - you’ve a business class ticket head to KLM’s lounge. It’s not great but it’s better then sitting outside
  • Options

    GIN1138 said:

    The odd thing is, I didn't think Sunak was too bad at the start. He made a few decent calls when it came to clearing up the messes left by Johnson and Truss, but somehow it's all fallen apart in the past year.

    Was is when he changed strategy from being a competent if rather dull manager to doing all the negative/culture wars stuff? The culmination of which is the appalling attack ad for the London Mayoralty.

    It seems to me he alone has turned what could have been a reasonable defeat and Con still in the game for 2029 into a potential extinction event.

    The turning point seems to have been the Uxbridge by-election - the Tories' unexpected win convinced Sunak to abandon the dull, competent approach and start taking "initiatives" most of which were ill thought out and often counter-productive. So he floundered around on green issues, losing an MP and upsetting business in the process. He then cancelled the northern leg of HS2, making the government look inconsistent and again upsetting some business lobbies. And of course there is the Rwanda debacle, which has served to focus attention on immigration policy, which is one of the government's greatest failures.
    Sunak was awful before Uxbridge, its just since then that you've realised how bad he is.

    I'd like to know one decent call that Sunak made to clear up the messes left by Johnson and Truss - the only decent calls have been by Hunt, not Sunak, and it was Truss that appointed Hunt.
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414

    ToryJim said:
    It all sounds rather pointlessly icky. Why would you want to eat sushi off a scantily clad man and woman? Wouldn't it be better, and indeed racier, to have scantily-clad sushi-servers moving around? This is just a vulgar display of wealth and power. These people are arranged as human tables not because it is attractive but because someone has paid them enough money to do it.
    Very much put me in mind of some of the behaviour of the Marquis de Sade which isn’t what anyone should aim to replicate. As you say vulgar and ostentatious display. Entirely unbecoming.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721

    Got Lib Dem leaflets through the door again this weekend, for the local elections. Again nothing NIMBY on them, so I think I might vote for them again this year.

    Am curious though, the Focus leaflet had the flagship headline that the Lib Dems had supported extra money in the Council to fix potholes in the roads, with a picture of an LD Councillor next to a car getting its tyre changed, and that the Conservatives in the Council had voted against that.

    A few months ago I had LD canvassers knock on the door and ask what I thought should be done to improve the area, I said that the roads need improving.

    Curious if that's a coincidence, or if I'm now on an LD database and getting a Focus leaflet targeted to me, while someone else would get a Focus leaflet trumpeting some other policy.

    I think potholes are generally near the top of anyone's complaint list. I lost a 5 week old tyre to one last month.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,231
    On a brighter note OMFG why isn’t the movie THE CREATOR more celebrated? Its fantastic. Saw it on the plane from Colombia

    Brave, clever, moving, nicely plotted, magnificent cinematography, and very very apposite - all about war between AI and humans, Asia and the west

    The acting is great, the robots are brilliantly done, it’s full of ideas, it’s twice as good as Oppenheimer and fifty eight times as good as that last bit of overlong dreck from Scorsese

    Am I the only person that realises this? Fantastic movie
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,679
    Leon said:

    ToryJim said:
    It all sounds rather pointlessly icky. Why would you want to eat sushi off a scantily clad man and woman? Wouldn't it be better, and indeed racier, to have scantily-clad sushi-servers moving around? This is just a vulgar display of wealth and power. These people are arranged as human tables not because it is attractive but because someone has paid them enough money to do it.
    It’s a well known erotic byway. Started in Japan (obvs) but is popular amongst kinksters in the west

    The women volunteer and get aroused by being objectified

    They are almost certainly naked not scantily clad, the latter wouid be RIDIC
    Scantily clad in sushi. At least for a time.

    Reminds me of those placards you used to see in pubs the 70s: rows of packets of peanuts for sale behind which was a picture of a topless woman - buy a pack and reveal a bit more - ooh, er! Different times, eh?
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,181
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Larry Fink of Blackrock is warning of an impending retirement crisis as people are retiring and living longer and unable to fund it.

    "Fink argued that capital markets – in other words, investments in stock and bonds – could help provide the answer ‘so long as governments and companies help people invest’."

    I am sure he knows a company whose products can fill this gap. Although his core point is absolutely right. However Blackrock should focus on returns as opposed to ESG activism.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/blackrock-boss-warns-of-a-global-retirement-crisis-as-people-live-longer-but-cannot-afford-to-pay-for-it/ar-BB1kAeEg?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=38a01b9936f94364ba0b1fdc446b3924&ei=73

    Did Logan's Run not explain how this problem could be solved a long time ago?
    Yes. A terrific movie as well.

    I really did rather enjoy the short run series they made, after the movie, which was shown on ATV on a Sunday afternoon.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,679
    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,181
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,630
    Scott_xP said:

    @PickardJE

    when you talk privately to Tory MPs their fighting spirit seems to have sapped away entirely, most seem resigned to an historic wipe-out in the autumn, I’ve never seen their morale so shattered

    It's good to see that Tory MPs are at least in touch with reality!
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    edited March 27
    kinabalu said:

    GIN1138 said:

    The odd thing is, I didn't think Sunak was too bad at the start. He made a few decent calls when it came to clearing up the messes left by Johnson and Truss, but somehow it's all fallen apart in the past year.

    Was is when he changed strategy from being a competent if rather dull manager to doing all the negative/culture wars stuff? The culmination of which is the appalling attack ad for the London Mayoralty.

    It seems to me he alone has turned what could have been a reasonable defeat and Con still in the game for 2029 into a potential extinction event.

    Yes he's been weak, his inexperience manifesting as callowness. I expected more of him. I wonder how he'd have done if they'd chosen him instead of Truss the first time around? Rather better (but still without a chance of winning the next election) is my feeling. He doesn't have the ability to connect with people and politics is a tough old game if you don't have that.
    The great unknown is whether the downward trajectory that was supercharged by Kwasi and Truss's budget was baked in or if Sunak could have taken the 10 point or so deficit and closed it to level pegging.
    Even People Polling were only at a 12 lead in the early Truss days, although Yougov had started going south

    Without the big lead is there much more Starmer drama etc?
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,181
    Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton
    The UK Government holds negative net approval ratings on ALL issues polled.

    UK Government Policy Approval Ratings (24 March):

    Coronavirus -3%
    Defence -6%
    Foreign policy -9%
    Education -16%
    Crime -22%
    Economy -23% 👈
    Housing -31%
    Immigration -36% 👈
    NHS -36% 👈

    rNHS. The envy of the world.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,630

    Good morning to one and all!
    All sorts of things concerning us today aren’t there! Do I gather that Leon has either flounced or been banned?
    I am somewhat bothered, though, by the fact that the BBC website has its main feature, the covering over of some graffiti, allegedly, by Banksy.

    I get "Public satisfaction with NHS at lowest ever level, survey shows" as the lead item when I go to the BBC.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68669866

    Makes me wonder, are the BBC tailoring their feed to some big data assessment of your concerns? And if so, why are you so concerned about lost Banksies OKC?
    Time to privatise the NHS, Andy Burnham was right when he was Health Secretary to privatise the NHS.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/who-privatised-hinchingbrooke-hospital-and-does-it-matter/
    Or just get rid of the Tories. NHS satisfaction was 70% in 2010.
    And NHS employment was half a million lower.

    Still I look forward to all the people claiming 'everything is broken' changing their line after they think a suitable amount of Labour government has passed.
    I thought you Tories were all for value for money and in particular optimum personal productivity. You Tories seem to have dropped the ball and have far more people doing far less. For goodness sake shape up!
    Variations of this glib style response seem to have a panicky undertone.

    A horrified acceptance perhaps that more money and more people (both of which unlikely to be available in any case) aren't going to solve the nation's health problems.

    Meaning that Starmer, Reeves and Streeting are going to have to find ways of increasing NHS productivity.

    Which means more output from the same level of input.

    They'll need more than good luck to achieve that.

    These it seems are going to be Streeting's long term strategies:

    "from an excessive focus on hospital care to more focus on neighbourhood and community services; from an analogue service to one that embraces the technological revolution; and from sickness to prevention."

    All very well meaning but will face NHS inertial opposition, will take many years to be implemented and then many more years for any positive results to show.
    If something will take many years to be implemented and more still to show results, then we should get started with it as soon as possible! Unfortunately, we haven't. If Labour change that, good.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    GIN1138 said:

    The odd thing is, I didn't think Sunak was too bad at the start. He made a few decent calls when it came to clearing up the messes left by Johnson and Truss, but somehow it's all fallen apart in the past year.

    Was is when he changed strategy from being a competent if rather dull manager to doing all the negative/culture wars stuff? The culmination of which is the appalling attack ad for the London Mayoralty.

    It seems to me he alone has turned what could have been a reasonable defeat and Con still in the game for 2029 into a potential extinction event.

    The turning point seems to have been the Uxbridge by-election - the Tories' unexpected win convinced Sunak to abandon the dull, competent approach and start taking "initiatives" most of which were ill thought out and often counter-productive. So he floundered around on green issues, losing an MP and upsetting business in the process. He then cancelled the northern leg of HS2, making the government look inconsistent and again upsetting some business lobbies. And of course there is the Rwanda debacle, which has served to focus attention on immigration policy, which is one of the government's greatest failures.
    Sunak was awful before Uxbridge, its just since then that you've realised how bad he is.

    I'd like to know one decent call that Sunak made to clear up the messes left by Johnson and Truss - the only decent calls have been by Hunt, not Sunak, and it was Truss that appointed Hunt.
    He sorted out the Northern Ireland protocol. And please don't take this an invitation to discuss that.

    He also did a deal to get us back into Horizon Europe and Copernicus programmes - big wins for science.

    I'm a bit unsure about the AI stuff - but he was showing real leadership on that too, coordinating lots of govts etc.
  • Options
    ScarpiaScarpia Posts: 28
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    I see Andy Cooke is saying that LibDems in Didcot and Wantage are scrupulous about bar charts. I actually received one of them this week - it's the most distorted bar chart that I've ever seen. It's also effectively about a different constituency, as D&W has lost 15,000 mostly Tory and LibDem rural voters from the old Wantage seat. And it's from 2019.

    As in mid-Beds, it's a real problem in partly rural seats that LibDems feel they own the right to oppose the Tories, but the effect is that where there's a major swing to Labour it gets put at risk by LibDem leaflets that falsely purport to show it's not happening. There certainly are seats where the LibDems are the only serious challengers to the Tories - I can think of two in Surrey that I know very well. But they don't do their cause any good by trying the same tactic in seats that are effectively three-way marginals.

    I'm chair of D&W Labour, and it's now a Labour target, so I'll be spending all my time here until the election. Perhaps Andy and I can have a PB bet on the outcome.




    @NickPalmer can you explain why Labour are canvassing and leafleting in Guildford and the leaflet has a bar chart on it with Lab on on 33%, Tories 31% and LD on 30%?

    Does that beat your most distorted bar chart you have ever seen?

    These sort of tactics could cause the Tories to hold on against the LDs in Guildford and one can only assume these are Lab tactics here. Why are they doing it? What the hell is the point? Why don't they fight somewhere where their leaflets and canvassing will do some good?
    I might also add next to the bar chart it says:

    'The other parties would have you believe that Labour is not in the race in Guildford. Beware of dodgy Lib Dem statistics.'

    The irony of the 2nd sentence just makes you choke on your cornflakes being next to the bar chart.

    So Labour should put its own house in order before preaching to the LDs. At least in the cases cited the LDs are actually challengers in the case of Guildford Labour are just spoilers plain and simple.
    The first rule of Dodgy Bar Chart club is never show yourself in the lead. The point is to show your team closing in on the front runner, and can win it if enough third (flagging) party supporters switch.
    On this basis one wonders if this Guildford leaflet might encourage Tory voters, who know they are going down, to switch to LibDems to keep Labour out?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,778
    ToryJim said:

    ToryJim said:
    It all sounds rather pointlessly icky. Why would you want to eat sushi off a scantily clad man and woman? Wouldn't it be better, and indeed racier, to have scantily-clad sushi-servers moving around? This is just a vulgar display of wealth and power. These people are arranged as human tables not because it is attractive but because someone has paid them enough money to do it.
    Very much put me in mind of some of the behaviour of the Marquis de Sade which isn’t what anyone should aim to replicate. As you say vulgar and ostentatious display. Entirely unbecoming.
    What startled me was the dress of some of the guests. Trainers, even. (At least they *were* dressed. And not in the crabs sense.)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,421

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934

    Scott_xP said:

    @PickardJE

    when you talk privately to Tory MPs their fighting spirit seems to have sapped away entirely, most seem resigned to an historic wipe-out in the autumn, I’ve never seen their morale so shattered

    It's good to see that Tory MPs are at least in touch with reality!
    It betrays their sense of entitlement, they dont want to work for votes, they just expect them and not getting them makes them all sad and pathetic.
    Grow a set and get on the stump or get off the pitch you sacks of shite
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,231
    I wonder if The Creator might be the Blade Runner de nos jours. Lukewarm reception at the time, slowly people realised it is a masterpiece
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,679
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton
    The UK Government holds negative net approval ratings on ALL issues polled.

    UK Government Policy Approval Ratings (24 March):

    Coronavirus -3%
    Defence -6%
    Foreign policy -9%
    Education -16%
    Crime -22%
    Economy -23% 👈
    Housing -31%
    Immigration -36% 👈
    NHS -36% 👈

    rNHS. The envy of the world.
    14 years of Tory government - certainly not the envy of the world.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,626
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    It’s Trump isn’t it? People are scared this might somehow “benefit Trump” if it turns out to be sabotage so they are insanely allergic to the notion

    Get a grip

    Its Trump derangement syndrome. Im convinced the covid lockdowns only went on as long as they did in some areas of the US because people wanted to stick it to Trump.
    I’m still shocked by this amazing statistic

    https://unherd.com/newsroom/six-in-10-democrats-believe-covid-19-pandemic-isnt-over/

    lol. If this is China and Russia driving America insane they are doing a bang up job
    To be fair they are not wrong.

    Covid is now an endemic disease but I wouldn’t expect the average punter to do strong Josh between endemic and pandemic.

    But we have tools to manage it, and so we don’t need to reach in the extreme way we did 4 years ago
    Also, TBF, the line between epidemic/pandemic and endemic isn't a particularly clear one.

    We talk about flu seasonal flu epidemics, even is they're of fairly low severity.
    And novel variants of Covid are still reinfecting people worldwide, so it's really semantics as to whether it's now a low level
    pandemic, or
    epidemic.
    With flu it’s a different virus each year which is why it is an epidemic not an endemic disease

    That's why I said 'novel variants'.

    I agree with Foxy that it's endemic, FWIW. But it's not obviously absurd for someone to think it's still a low level pandemic.
    I find it surprising when people who are poorly are still doing Covid tests. These days, when I have had a virus I am just fussed about the symptoms and getting better, not which bug has caused it.
    I must say that when several people I know through work have been off ill with Covid recently the thing I was most surprised about was that they knew they had it. I think the last of our tests went out of date some time ago. Unless you work in the NHS I am really not sure where you would get them.
    Perhaps Manflu has now been superseded by ManCovid?
    Covid explains a lot of what is going on in society. It damages the frontal lobe, causing impulsively, aggression, poor decision making and loss of empathy. In the long term that may well be the worst effect of the pandemic.

    "These findings also have broader implications for all of society. Severe COVID-19 (hospitalized patients on ventilators) has been associated with 70 and corresponds to a 7-point decline in IQ. For those treated at home with uncomplicated respiratory symptoms, the decline approximated an average of a little over 1 IQ point (calculated from Figure 2 in the paper). Unfortunately, repeated infections can cause additive damage in those with long COVID-19; thus, even small decreases in IQ may become substantial."

    https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/view/covid-19-traffic-accidents-covid-19-personality-disorder-caused-viral-damage-prefrontal-cortex-
    I thought IQ measured nothing and was an entirely discredited metric? Make your slightly deficient mind up
    It is certainly a problematic measure, being quite variable in testing, but in these studies of the effects on brain structure there are objective measures too.

    It's not just brain structure too. Vascular disease and new diabetes are both more common in the 6 months after covid, even mild not hospitalised covid. Particularly so in the unvaccinated.

    So IQ IS a useful measure. Got that
    Not for the first time, your rhetorical skills appears to be outrunning your analytical capacity.

    "Got that."
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414

    kinabalu said:

    GIN1138 said:

    The odd thing is, I didn't think Sunak was too bad at the start. He made a few decent calls when it came to clearing up the messes left by Johnson and Truss, but somehow it's all fallen apart in the past year.

    Was is when he changed strategy from being a competent if rather dull manager to doing all the negative/culture wars stuff? The culmination of which is the appalling attack ad for the London Mayoralty.

    It seems to me he alone has turned what could have been a reasonable defeat and Con still in the game for 2029 into a potential extinction event.

    Yes he's been weak, his inexperience manifesting as callowness. I expected more of him. I wonder how he'd have done if they'd chosen him instead of Truss the first time around? Rather better (but still without a chance of winning the next election) is my feeling. He doesn't have the ability to connect with people and politics is a tough old game if you don't have that.
    The great unknown is whether the downward trajectory that was supercharged by Kwasi and Truss's budget was baked in or if Sunak could have taken the 10 point or so deficit and closed it to level pegging.
    Even People Polling were only at a 12 lead in the early Truss days, although Yougov had started going south

    Without the big lead is there much more Starmer drama etc?
    I suspect that absent Truss the Conservatives would be moderately behind but not catastrophically behind. The problem the Tories inflicted on themselves was picking a manifestly inept leader after Boris, once she’d been rapidly rumbled they absolutely needed to correct course but were always going to take the hit for screwing up in the first place.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,778

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Good morning to one and all!
    All sorts of things concerning us today aren’t there! Do I gather that Leon has either flounced or been banned?
    I am somewhat bothered, though, by the fact that the BBC website has its main feature, the covering over of some graffiti, allegedly, by Banksy.

    I get "Public satisfaction with NHS at lowest ever level, survey shows" as the lead item when I go to the BBC.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68669866

    Makes me wonder, are the BBC tailoring their feed to some big data assessment of your concerns? And if so, why are you so concerned about lost Banksies OKC?
    Time to privatise the NHS, Andy Burnham was right when he was Health Secretary to privatise the NHS.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/who-privatised-hinchingbrooke-hospital-and-does-it-matter/
    Or just get rid of the Tories. NHS satisfaction was 70% in 2010.
    And NHS employment was half a million lower.

    Still I look forward to all the people claiming 'everything is broken' changing their line after they think a suitable amount of Labour government has passed.
    I thought you Tories were all for value for money and in particular optimum personal productivity. You Tories seem to have dropped the ball and have far more people doing far less. For goodness sake shape up!
    Variations of this glib style response seem to have a panicky undertone.

    A horrified acceptance perhaps that more money and more people (both of which unlikely to be available in any case) aren't going to solve the nation's health problems.

    Meaning that Starmer, Reeves and Streeting are going to have to find ways of increasing NHS productivity.

    Which means more output from the same level of input.

    They'll need more than good luck to achieve that.

    These it seems are going to be Streeting's long term strategies:

    "from an excessive focus on hospital care to more focus on neighbourhood and community services; from an analogue service to one that embraces the technological revolution; and from sickness to prevention."

    All very well meaning but will face NHS inertial opposition, will take many years to be implemented and then many more years for any positive results to show.
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/02/04/the-state-of-process-the-process-state/
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/03/08/we-need-more-bureaucracy/

    Imagine the fun politics of investing less in nurses (say) and more in testing technology, so that in 5 years time, test will come back 38% faster on average.

    Or spending less on the NHS itself and more on hospice style beds for elderly people, so that they aren't occupying hospital beds?

    Or more on admin staff, and less on nurses?

    Or a Vitality style scheme - less nurses, but spend the money on free cinema tickets for those who do a demonstrable amount of exercise per week?
    I'd be curious if anyone has done any morbid mathematics to determine whether exercise actually does reduce cost to the Exchequer over the long-term, its quite possibly the opposite.

    I recall a statistic that smoking is good for the Exchequer, despite the vast cost of smoking-related illnesses on the NHS, not simply because of the duties on tobacco, but because smokers die younger they claim less in pensions so the Exchequer ends up better off net.
    Exercise is almost certainly a net benefit, as it will reduce the incidence of costly chronic disease.
    Smoking is good as it reduces lifespan sufficiently to save more on geriatric healthcare than it costs in treating smoking related diseases..

    There's probably a degree of uncertainty about longer term effects on the cost of geriatric medicine - but we'll only find out long after any such scheme is implemented in a large scale.
    The ideal is probably someone like my paternal grandmother, who died at age 86 in her sleep having been independent and on - I think - no medications and with only one hospital stay about 8 years earlier for a broken hip after being hit by a car.

    I'm not quite sure how we engineer that, though. My dad is currently 81 and has statins, but that is it. As far as I know, he's never had a hospital admission, so we probably need some selective breeding :wink: (My mum has long term illness with multiple hospital admissions and frequent outpatient visits and is only mid-70s; her mum also had illness for the last five years of her life)
    Disability Free life expectancy at age 65 is about 10 years across most of the UK. It correlates quite well with income, so for the average PBer, 80 years is pretty much par.
    *checks disabilities*
    *looks at the numbers beginning 5 on latest birthday card*
    *has a little cry*
    And of course disability doesn't make life a burden, just needing adaptions.
    No, I know, I just get wistful occasionally. Of course I'm also incredibly cantankerous and planning on seeing us settle Mars so I can say how rubbish it looks and isn't a patch on 70s Norwich.
    Or something.
    The locals have three fingers on each hand? I can see why that might be disconcerting.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,631
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton
    The UK Government holds negative net approval ratings on ALL issues polled.

    UK Government Policy Approval Ratings (24 March):

    Coronavirus -3%
    Defence -6%
    Foreign policy -9%
    Education -16%
    Crime -22%
    Economy -23% 👈
    Housing -31%
    Immigration -36% 👈
    NHS -36% 👈

    rNHS. The envy of the world.
    And they've decided in their wisdom to do a big splash on how crime is out of control in the capital, which is bound to improve their -22% approval ratings on crime, right?

    Housing -31% implies that a significant number of owner occupiers see and understand the pain of their younger non-house owning brethren.
  • Options
    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,818

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    I see Andy Cooke is saying that LibDems in Didcot and Wantage are scrupulous about bar charts. I actually received one of them this week - it's the most distorted bar chart that I've ever seen. It's also effectively about a different constituency, as D&W has lost 15,000 mostly Tory and LibDem rural voters from the old Wantage seat. And it's from 2019.

    As in mid-Beds, it's a real problem in partly rural seats that LibDems feel they own the right to oppose the Tories, but the effect is that where there's a major swing to Labour it gets put at risk by LibDem leaflets that falsely purport to show it's not happening. There certainly are seats where the LibDems are the only serious challengers to the Tories - I can think of two in Surrey that I know very well. But they don't do their cause any good by trying the same tactic in seats that are effectively three-way marginals.

    I'm chair of D&W Labour, and it's now a Labour target, so I'll be spending all my time here until the election. Perhaps Andy and I can have a PB bet on the outcome.




    @NickPalmer can you explain why Labour are canvassing and leafleting in Guildford and the leaflet has a bar chart on it with Lab on on 33%, Tories 31% and LD on 30%?

    Does that beat your most distorted bar chart you have ever seen?

    These sort of tactics could cause the Tories to hold on against the LDs in Guildford and one can only assume these are Lab tactics here. Why are they doing it? What the hell is the point? Why don't they fight somewhere where their leaflets and canvassing will do some good?
    I might also add next to the bar chart it says:

    'The other parties would have you believe that Labour is not in the race in Guildford. Beware of dodgy Lib Dem statistics.'

    The irony of the 2nd sentence just makes you choke on your cornflakes being next to the bar chart.

    So Labour should put its own house in order before preaching to the LDs. At least in the cases cited the LDs are actually challengers in the case of Guildford Labour are just spoilers plain and simple.
    There are really three separate issues - how the parties get on with each other, whether the leaflets are fair, and whether national parties should reinforce one place or another.

    Re 1: I don't know much about Guildford Labour and haven't seen their leaflet, though I'm aware that the fact that the LibDems brought Labour into the LD-led coalition in Waverley has kept Labour's leaflets there restrained, whereas in Guildford Labour has been kept outside, or maybe wanted to be (I don't know the history). Godalming Labour is annoyed by the LD tactic of asking Labour voters to "lend" their support and then next time using it as evidence that Labour support is weak, but because relations are generally amicable we swallow it without going overboard in retaliation

    Re 2: I think that local parties will always want to use the most helpful evidence to boost their cause, and it's unrealistic to think that they'll all go off and help somewhere else. But that doesn't excuse deliberate manipulation.

    Re 3: More generally, national and regional parties have to make an objective decision on which seats are most promising in terms of shovelling money and resources. In the seats that I know personally, I'd think that further LD resources are well-invested in Godalming and Ash but the big Labour push coming in Didcot and Wantage objectively makes that a less promising target for the LDs. The position for Labour is the converse. That's separate from what we may feel about individual leaflets and tactics.

    Andy: would you like a £10 bet on whether Labour or LibDems will come higher in Didcot and Wantage? Winner donates to charity of the loser's choice.
    Personally, I'm more focused (no pun intended) on who might actually win. As with Diplomacy, a second place nets nothing. And if we narrowly come second with a fairly chunky Labour vote share in third, winning £10 won't really stop me being frustrated.

    How about a £10 bet on the contingency that David Johnston is unseated, who pulled it off?
    I win if it's Olly Glover for the Lib Dems. You win if it's [insert name here] for Labour.

    And Didcot and Wantage definitely looks to be the Lib Dem best prospect in Oxfordshire for a gain. Banbury is certainly best prospect for Labour. I can see arguments over Bicester and Woodstock, and Witney, but with the way the area has swung to the Lib Dems over the past several years at local level, the strong performance last time, and the various other aspects highlighted in the vote-2012 boards write-up (https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/17762/didcot-wantage ) that make it demographically better for the Lib Dems than ever before, I think we'd be fools to step down our campaign here, frankly.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,906

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Taz said:
    The day after Bailey says this

    https://www.scottishfinancialnews.com/articles/boe-governor-hints-at-interest-rate-cuts-as-inflation-settles

    The messaging seems a bit all over the place to me.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,906
    edited March 27
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton
    The UK Government holds negative net approval ratings on ALL issues polled.

    UK Government Policy Approval Ratings (24 March):

    Coronavirus -3%
    Defence -6%
    Foreign policy -9%
    Education -16%
    Crime -22%
    Economy -23% 👈
    Housing -31%
    Immigration -36% 👈
    NHS -36% 👈

    rNHS. The envy of the world.
    The problem for the Tories is they keep mistaking disapproval of their health policies for disapproval of the NHS in general.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,778
    edited March 27
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton
    The UK Government holds negative net approval ratings on ALL issues polled.

    UK Government Policy Approval Ratings (24 March):

    Coronavirus -3%
    Defence -6%
    Foreign policy -9%
    Education -16%
    Crime -22%
    Economy -23% 👈
    Housing -31%
    Immigration -36% 👈
    NHS -36% 👈

    rNHS. The envy of the world.
    And they've decided in their wisdom to do a big splash on how crime is out of control in the capital, which is bound to improve their -22% approval ratings on crime, right?

    Housing -31% implies that a significant number of owner occupiers see and understand the pain of their younger non-house owning brethren.
    Not just brethren but sons and daughters and grandchildren and nephews and nieces. It's all very well having a house but there's no point in selling it while one needs it, just to give the youngsters a house, and the Tory mantra of "piss off and die so your child can at last get on the housing ladder" is not much more helpful than their splash on crime in the capital.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226

    kinabalu said:

    GIN1138 said:

    The odd thing is, I didn't think Sunak was too bad at the start. He made a few decent calls when it came to clearing up the messes left by Johnson and Truss, but somehow it's all fallen apart in the past year.

    Was is when he changed strategy from being a competent if rather dull manager to doing all the negative/culture wars stuff? The culmination of which is the appalling attack ad for the London Mayoralty.

    It seems to me he alone has turned what could have been a reasonable defeat and Con still in the game for 2029 into a potential extinction event.

    Yes he's been weak, his inexperience manifesting as callowness. I expected more of him. I wonder how he'd have done if they'd chosen him instead of Truss the first time around? Rather better (but still without a chance of winning the next election) is my feeling. He doesn't have the ability to connect with people and politics is a tough old game if you don't have that.
    The great unknown is whether the downward trajectory that was supercharged by Kwasi and Truss's budget was baked in or if Sunak could have taken the 10 point or so deficit and closed it to level pegging.
    Even People Polling were only at a 12 lead in the early Truss days, although Yougov had started going south

    Without the big lead is there much more Starmer drama etc?
    I think it would have depended on which of the following 2 factors predominated:

    Negative: Sunak would still have been what he is - inexperienced, lightweight, not able to connect with the public.

    Positive: He would have been more confident if he'd won the leadership election to replace Johnson, felt less insecure, more loved, more in possession of a mandate. This might have fed through to a stronger personal performance. And of course the Truss debacle would not have happened.

    My view fwiw is he'd still be heading for defeat but there'd be no Labour landslide.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,778
    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
  • Options
    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,818
    edited March 27
    Taz said:
    Yes. Lots of home-owners don't have mortgages. Lots of people can't get a mortgage.
    To tackle inflation the government needs to take other clubs out of the bag.
    Leon said:

    Seriously. Look at the prices for averagely poor Japanese food at schiphol. A so called bento box, with a dozen sad pieces of sushi. How much is that in the UK? £8? £12 absolute max at Pret?

    €30 here

    Really really bad sandwiches are £7-£10



    It would be ok if the food was superb. It’s not, it’s obviously bad. Weird

    People travelling through airports are a captive audience and not price-sensitive.
    They are either holiday makers on a once-a-year trip, or business people on expenses.

    Edit: I don't know how I replied to two posts at once, but I like it!
  • Options
    Carnyx said:

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton
    The UK Government holds negative net approval ratings on ALL issues polled.

    UK Government Policy Approval Ratings (24 March):

    Coronavirus -3%
    Defence -6%
    Foreign policy -9%
    Education -16%
    Crime -22%
    Economy -23% 👈
    Housing -31%
    Immigration -36% 👈
    NHS -36% 👈

    rNHS. The envy of the world.
    And they've decided in their wisdom to do a big splash on how crime is out of control in the capital, which is bound to improve their -22% approval ratings on crime, right?

    Housing -31% implies that a significant number of owner occupiers see and understand the pain of their younger non-house owning brethren.
    Not just brethren but sons and daughters and grandchildren and nephews and nieces. It's all very well having a house but there's no point in selling it while one needs it, just to give the youngsters a house, and the Tory mantra of "piss off and die so your child can at last get on the housing ladder" is not much more helpful than their splash on crime in the capital.
    I remain hopeful that Starmer will challenge NIMBYs in the same way as Thatcher challenged the NUM. If he does, he will be a great PM regardless of Party.

    I also remain sceptical that he will, however I know Sunak won't, and again any possibility beats no possibility.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,955
    Stop The Boats

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel so far this year, according to provisional Home Office figures
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,114
    Carnyx said:

    ToryJim said:

    ToryJim said:
    It all sounds rather pointlessly icky. Why would you want to eat sushi off a scantily clad man and woman? Wouldn't it be better, and indeed racier, to have scantily-clad sushi-servers moving around? This is just a vulgar display of wealth and power. These people are arranged as human tables not because it is attractive but because someone has paid them enough money to do it.
    Very much put me in mind of some of the behaviour of the Marquis de Sade which isn’t what anyone should aim to replicate. As you say vulgar and ostentatious display. Entirely unbecoming.
    What startled me was the dress of some of the guests. Trainers, even. (At least they *were* dressed. And not in the crabs sense.)
    I noticed Tim Davie yesterday in one of his 'the BBC is safe in my hands' fluff interviews yesterday was wearing white tennis shoes with a suit. Reith will not only be spinning in his grave, he will be rising from it ready for a bit of smiting.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,778

    Carnyx said:

    ToryJim said:

    ToryJim said:
    It all sounds rather pointlessly icky. Why would you want to eat sushi off a scantily clad man and woman? Wouldn't it be better, and indeed racier, to have scantily-clad sushi-servers moving around? This is just a vulgar display of wealth and power. These people are arranged as human tables not because it is attractive but because someone has paid them enough money to do it.
    Very much put me in mind of some of the behaviour of the Marquis de Sade which isn’t what anyone should aim to replicate. As you say vulgar and ostentatious display. Entirely unbecoming.
    What startled me was the dress of some of the guests. Trainers, even. (At least they *were* dressed. And not in the crabs sense.)
    I noticed Tim Davie yesterday in one of his 'the BBC is safe in my hands' fluff interviews yesterday was wearing white tennis shoes with a suit. Reith will not only be spinning in his grave, he will be rising from it ready for a bit of smiting.
    At this rate the newsreaders will be in Winnie the Pooh mode half the time.
  • Options
    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton
    The UK Government holds negative net approval ratings on ALL issues polled.

    UK Government Policy Approval Ratings (24 March):

    Coronavirus -3%
    Defence -6%
    Foreign policy -9%
    Education -16%
    Crime -22%
    Economy -23% 👈
    Housing -31%
    Immigration -36% 👈
    NHS -36% 👈

    rNHS. The envy of the world.
    The problem for the Tories is they keep mistaking disapproval of their health policies for disapproval of the NHS in general.
    It's really quite extraordinary that NHS staffing has apparently gone up so much (they claim 38,000 more doctors and 54,000 more nurses since 2010) and yet outcomes and satisfaction have got so much worse. That is a managerial failure of epic proportions.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,421
    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    It's the usual - "We demand better sewage handling NOW! And no, you can't build a sewage plant within 50 miles of me."

    Thames super sewer was valiantly resisted by the AngryMenWithBicycleClips. They even tried to get to stop the covering over/reworking of the tanks in Acton - which smelt bad when they dried up in some summers. All underground now. So literally improving house values by quite a bit nearby!
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,906
    Scott_xP said:

    Stop The Boats

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel so far this year, according to provisional Home Office figures

    An extraordinary sequence of water-related bad news for the government. What next - a tsunami knocks out the Tory strongholds in Lincolnshire?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,421
    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Carnyx said:

    ToryJim said:

    ToryJim said:
    It all sounds rather pointlessly icky. Why would you want to eat sushi off a scantily clad man and woman? Wouldn't it be better, and indeed racier, to have scantily-clad sushi-servers moving around? This is just a vulgar display of wealth and power. These people are arranged as human tables not because it is attractive but because someone has paid them enough money to do it.
    Very much put me in mind of some of the behaviour of the Marquis de Sade which isn’t what anyone should aim to replicate. As you say vulgar and ostentatious display. Entirely unbecoming.
    What startled me was the dress of some of the guests. Trainers, even. (At least they *were* dressed. And not in the crabs sense.)
    Saw a Mclaren on the way to work ahead of me, which as this is Sheffield and not Knightsbridge is... relatively rare. Bearded driver, looked mid 30s or so. 100% early crypto buyer.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    GIN1138 said:

    The odd thing is, I didn't think Sunak was too bad at the start. He made a few decent calls when it came to clearing up the messes left by Johnson and Truss, but somehow it's all fallen apart in the past year.

    Was is when he changed strategy from being a competent if rather dull manager to doing all the negative/culture wars stuff? The culmination of which is the appalling attack ad for the London Mayoralty.

    It seems to me he alone has turned what could have been a reasonable defeat and Con still in the game for 2029 into a potential extinction event.

    Yes he's been weak, his inexperience manifesting as callowness. I expected more of him. I wonder how he'd have done if they'd chosen him instead of Truss the first time around? Rather better (but still without a chance of winning the next election) is my feeling. He doesn't have the ability to connect with people and politics is a tough old game if you don't have that.
    The great unknown is whether the downward trajectory that was supercharged by Kwasi and Truss's budget was baked in or if Sunak could have taken the 10 point or so deficit and closed it to level pegging.
    Even People Polling were only at a 12 lead in the early Truss days, although Yougov had started going south

    Without the big lead is there much more Starmer drama etc?
    I think it would have depended on which of the following 2 factors predominated:

    Negative: Sunak would still have been what he is - inexperienced, lightweight, not able to connect with the public.

    Positive: He would have been more confident if he'd won the leadership election to replace Johnson, felt less insecure, more loved, more in possession of a mandate. This might have fed through to a stronger personal performance. And of course the Truss debacle would not have happened.

    My view fwiw is he'd still be heading for defeat but there'd be no Labour landslide.
    Yeah, although I suspect the debate would be 2005 style majority or minority government and Reform would be nowhere notable
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,906

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,421

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton
    The UK Government holds negative net approval ratings on ALL issues polled.

    UK Government Policy Approval Ratings (24 March):

    Coronavirus -3%
    Defence -6%
    Foreign policy -9%
    Education -16%
    Crime -22%
    Economy -23% 👈
    Housing -31%
    Immigration -36% 👈
    NHS -36% 👈

    rNHS. The envy of the world.
    The problem for the Tories is they keep mistaking disapproval of their health policies for disapproval of the NHS in general.
    It's really quite extraordinary that NHS staffing has apparently gone up so much (they claim 38,000 more doctors and 54,000 more nurses since 2010) and yet outcomes and satisfaction have got so much worse. That is a managerial failure of epic proportions.
    I've personally observed management practices that were considered harmful in the 1920s, in the NHS. My favourite was a man with a fucking clipboard doing time and motion numbers on Doctors in A&E. A methodology designed to create resentment and cause people to evade it.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Eabhal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Stop The Boats

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel so far this year, according to provisional Home Office figures

    An extraordinary sequence of water-related bad news for the government. What next - a tsunami knocks out the Tory strongholds in Lincolnshire?
    All retreat to Castle Point !
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Stop The Boats

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel so far this year, according to provisional Home Office figures

    An extraordinary sequence of water-related bad news for the government. What next - a tsunami knocks out the Tory strongholds in Lincolnshire?
    All retreat to Castle Point !
    Ref(UK) GAIN Canvey Island and associated crap holes
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,421
    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
  • Options
    TrentTrent Posts: 150
    Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton
    The UK Government holds negative net approval ratings on ALL issues polled.

    UK Government Policy Approval Ratings (24 March):

    Coronavirus -3%
    Defence -6%
    Foreign policy -9%
    Education -16%
    Crime -22%
    Economy -23% 👈
    Housing -31%
    Immigration -36% 👈
    NHS -36% 👈

    Amazingly bad when people consider the covid response with partygate and all to be their greatest success.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,997
    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Stop The Boats

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel so far this year, according to provisional Home Office figures

    An extraordinary sequence of water-related bad news for the government. What next - a tsunami knocks out the Tory strongholds in Lincolnshire?
    All retreat to Castle Point !
    Castle Point North.
    Canvey Island (aka Castle Point South) will be taken out if Lincolnshire is!
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,906
    edited March 27

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
    Hammersmith Bridge has reopened btw
  • Options

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
    I'd have told people to quit f***ing moaning and just got on with it personally.

    To each their own.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,541
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Schiphol is a massive overpriced Gatwick. KLM Biz Class is desperately mediocre, but you still get that stupid ceramic house with gin inside

    That is my opinion of the morning

    When I was working in Sweden the connecting flights were through Schipol, until somebody realised we could use Brussels instead. That's a great airport for transit.
    I will never diss Heathrow again. Indeed my schiphol experience is making me look more kindly on stansted. Or nairobi

    It’s understaffed and overpriced and there isn’t a bar in the terminal. Huge queues for everything especially McDonalds as it’s the only food source which doesn’t charge £700 for a bad sandwich

    Weirdly weirdly poor

    And biz class on KLM was several tiers below their “partner” Air France. It was more likel flying Biz Class on as aspiring airline from South America

    I wonder if Air France are deliberately running down KLM so they can eventually absorb it - loss making! - and get rid of the brand
    Only ever fly to or from Barra or Benbecula (and get out of Glasgow as soon as possible).
    Take sandwiches. In emergencies Glasgow Airport has a 24 hour Greggs.

    Only flying according to these rules leads to a long, successful and happy life, saves a fortune and puts a cap on the number of Speccie articles about places where you can buy a beer and hallucinate.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,421
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
    Hammersmith Bridge has reopened btw
    For pedestrians and cyclists. The major bus routes that used to go over it are still cut. Not to mention the congestion on the other London bridges caused by this closure.

    This is the "temporary" plan - a double decker truss!

    For extra stupid, the truss will be built on land and launched from both ends. When I asked why it wasn't barged in, in sections and lifted using the tide (Victorian style), the guy presenting the project wibbled.

    image

  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,631
    Scott_xP said:

    Stop The Boats

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel so far this year, according to provisional Home Office figures

    Bop the stoats.

    On a related topic I was faced with quite a depressing sight last night outside Oxford Street John Lewis. At least 8 or 9 men, in blankets sleeping rough, out of the rain. These were not wan heroin addicts, kids looking like they'd run away from home or bearded tramps with cans of special brew. They were young, fit and healthy Middle Eastern (I'd guess Kurdish or Iranian) men. A couple were looking at iPhones. None were begging.

    I can only assume they're recent arrivals whom the home office is not housing, and who are unable to get work or private accommodation. The whole thing looked very...avoidable.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,421

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
    I'd have told people to quit f***ing moaning and just got on with it personally.

    To each their own.
    It's what they do in France, IIRC.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,541
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
    Hammersmith Bridge has reopened btw
    Good news. I've just sold it to someone who backed 'Rishi to be PM after the next GE' with Hills at 6/1.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,231
    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Stop The Boats

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel so far this year, according to provisional Home Office figures

    Bop the stoats.

    On a related topic I was faced with quite a depressing sight last night outside Oxford Street John Lewis. At least 8 or 9 men, in blankets sleeping rough, out of the rain. These were not wan heroin addicts, kids looking like they'd run away from home or bearded tramps with cans of special brew. They were young, fit and healthy Middle Eastern (I'd guess Kurdish or Iranian) men. A couple were looking at iPhones. None were begging.

    I can only assume they're recent arrivals whom the home office is not housing, and who are unable to get work or private accommodation. The whole thing looked very...avoidable.
    Well then get a grip and stop the fucking boats and aim for zero immigration. This shit isn’t hard
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,421
    algarkirk said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
    Hammersmith Bridge has reopened btw
    Good news. I've just sold it to someone who backed 'Rishi to be PM after the next GE' with Hills at 6/1.
    Hey, I'd already sold it to someone who thinks Liz Truss at 100/1 is easy money. And to someone backing Boris and to someone backing Laurence Fox.

    It hasn't reopened, by the way.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,231
    On a related note I’m reading Conquistadors by Fernando Cervantes. A refreshingly unwoke history of the early Spanish Empire

    Apparently Christopher Columbus had a lifelong motto: “the more you travel, the more you know”

    So true
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,388
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Stop The Boats

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel so far this year, according to provisional Home Office figures

    Bop the stoats.

    On a related topic I was faced with quite a depressing sight last night outside Oxford Street John Lewis. At least 8 or 9 men, in blankets sleeping rough, out of the rain. These were not wan heroin addicts, kids looking like they'd run away from home or bearded tramps with cans of special brew. They were young, fit and healthy Middle Eastern (I'd guess Kurdish or Iranian) men. A couple were looking at iPhones. None were begging.

    I can only assume they're recent arrivals whom the home office is not housing, and who are unable to get work or private accommodation. The whole thing looked very...avoidable.
    Well then get a grip and stop the fucking boats and aim for zero immigration. This shit isn’t hard
    Nurse....Leon's awake again....
  • Options

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
    I'd have told people to quit f***ing moaning and just got on with it personally.

    To each their own.
    It's what they do in France, IIRC.
    And most other countries, quite rightly too.

    If any PM ever gets the cojones to tell the NIMBYs to do one, then we might actually start tackling our serious problems.

    Regrettably the one thing Starmer does not seem interested in doing is rocking any boats, so despite him probably understanding what the problem is, I don't have much expectation that he will actually do anything about it.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    I'm guessing Rishi is hoping to pull a 'numbers' scam on the LE results, raw numbers of losses and gains for the main parties will necessarily be lower than last year so however badly they do he will try and smoke and mirrors a 'not as bad as 23, corner turned' hailMary
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,994
    edited March 27

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
    Repair of Hammersmith Bridge is not held up by NIMBYs. It's not a planning issue. It is held up by lack of funding. £200 million.

    It is open to pedestrians and cyclists but not cars or buses or motor cycles.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,626

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    It's the usual - "We demand better sewage handling NOW! And no, you can't build a sewage plant within 50 miles of me."

    Thames super sewer was valiantly resisted by the AngryMenWithBicycleClips. They even tried to get to stop the covering over/reworking of the tanks in Acton - which smelt bad when they dried up in some summers. All underground now. So literally improving house values by quite a bit nearby!
    The story of water privatisation and its consequences is one of the biggest failures of governance in the UK's modern history (and there is some strong competition for that title). It has brought no benefit to the consumer or the government - the only beneficiaries have been shareholders and owners of the companies, many of which are outside the UK.
    And most of whom have already taken the money and run.

    Many of the current shareholders are suckers (aka pension funds) who bought in after the real damage had been done.

    The danger now is that they try to make themselves whole, on the back of the coming price rises to pay for the needed infrastructure investment. Or that the Macquaries of this world get back in and rape the industry all over again.

    We'd probably be better of making the financially weakest ones insolvent, and taking them back into public ownership.
    But in any event, the next government will set the scene for the next couple of decades.

    Thank God it's not going to be the "free market" Tories* in charge, or it would be the Macquarie option.

    (*It never was, and never will be a free market, obviously.)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,421

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
    I'd have told people to quit f***ing moaning and just got on with it personally.

    To each their own.
    It's what they do in France, IIRC.
    And most other countries, quite rightly too.

    If any PM ever gets the cojones to tell the NIMBYs to do one, then we might actually start tackling our serious problems.

    Regrettably the one thing Starmer does not seem interested in doing is rocking any boats, so despite him probably understanding what the problem is, I don't have much expectation that he will actually do anything about it.
    I mean stopping mouths with gold.

    Parents of a friend found the retirement house was going to be *in* a new rail station. The money they were given meant they moved to a really nice, brand new place in Fontainebleau. With money left over.

    They *like* railways, now.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,421
    edited March 27
    Barnesian said:

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
    Repair of Hammersmith Bridge is not held up by NIMBYs. It's not a planning issue. It is held up by lack of funding. £200 million.
    It was a mixture of all 3.

    The temporary bridge plan will swallow all that cash, and will never be removed.
  • Options
    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    More good news for the government:

    Raw sewage spills into England rivers and seas doubles in 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335

    It is simple.

    Either you demand "no more infrastructure, because Green NIMBY + not wanting to invest"

    or you celebrate infrastructure like this

    image
    Could you provide an example of NIMBYism stopping investment in sewage and water infrastructure?

    The country is begging for the rivers and seas to be cleaned up. It's about the most YIMBY topic imaginable.
    Even sorting out the leaks in the water supply would be Nimby-neutral at worst.
    Sorting out the leaks means digging up the roads. The moment they start doing that, what do you think happens?
    Bunch of motorists lose their minds. Finally, we have our culprit ;)
    OAPs complaint because the buses are disrupted. Cyclists complaining the cycle lanes are dug up. Fun for everyone.

    Construction projects are a bit shit to live next to. But that is part of the price of infrastructure.

    The problem is the idea that no wheel should squeak. So rebuilding Hammersmith bridge has been held up to avoid making life shit for a small number of people.

    I'd have bought the properties at 2x market value. Given tenants a pile of cash plus free moving service. For a handful of money, the project could be underway by now.
    I'd have told people to quit f***ing moaning and just got on with it personally.

    To each their own.
    It's what they do in France, IIRC.
    And most other countries, quite rightly too.

    If any PM ever gets the cojones to tell the NIMBYs to do one, then we might actually start tackling our serious problems.

    Regrettably the one thing Starmer does not seem interested in doing is rocking any boats, so despite him probably understanding what the problem is, I don't have much expectation that he will actually do anything about it.
    Labour has made a big thing of being "the builders not the blockers". Of course they may not follow through, however a large development bitterly opposed by NIMBYS near where I live has recently been approved by the (Labour) council so it may be that times are changing.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,181
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton
    The UK Government holds negative net approval ratings on ALL issues polled.

    UK Government Policy Approval Ratings (24 March):

    Coronavirus -3%
    Defence -6%
    Foreign policy -9%
    Education -16%
    Crime -22%
    Economy -23% 👈
    Housing -31%
    Immigration -36% 👈
    NHS -36% 👈

    rNHS. The envy of the world.
    And they've decided in their wisdom to do a big splash on how crime is out of control in the capital, which is bound to improve their -22% approval ratings on crime, right?

    Housing -31% implies that a significant number of owner occupiers see and understand the pain of their younger non-house owning brethren.
    Or they think we are building too much !!!
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,181
    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Stop The Boats

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel so far this year, according to provisional Home Office figures

    Bop the stoats.

    On a related topic I was faced with quite a depressing sight last night outside Oxford Street John Lewis. At least 8 or 9 men, in blankets sleeping rough, out of the rain. These were not wan heroin addicts, kids looking like they'd run away from home or bearded tramps with cans of special brew. They were young, fit and healthy Middle Eastern (I'd guess Kurdish or Iranian) men. A couple were looking at iPhones. None were begging.

    I can only assume they're recent arrivals whom the home office is not housing, and who are unable to get work or private accommodation. The whole thing looked very...avoidable.
    Rishi should get on stage and sing "stop the boats" to the tune of "Drop the Boy" by rock icons, Bros.
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,181
    But But But Labour said it would not affect investment !!!!

    Ithaca Energy cuts UK investment as windfall tax hits bottom line

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/ithaca-energy-cuts-uk-investment-as-windfall-tax-hits-bottom-line/ar-BB1kCrS6?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=315d6a998e354f44910f218cae02ff7d&ei=34
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,654
    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Stop The Boats

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel so far this year, according to provisional Home Office figures

    Bop the stoats.

    On a related topic I was faced with quite a depressing sight last night outside Oxford Street John Lewis. At least 8 or 9 men, in blankets sleeping rough, out of the rain. These were not wan heroin addicts, kids looking like they'd run away from home or bearded tramps with cans of special brew. They were young, fit and healthy Middle Eastern (I'd guess Kurdish or Iranian) men. A couple were looking at iPhones. None were begging.

    I can only assume they're recent arrivals whom the home office is not housing, and who are unable to get work or private accommodation. The whole thing looked very...avoidable.
    Most likely people who have been granted leave to remain.

    https://www.redcross.org.uk/stories/migration-and-displacement/refugees-and-asylum-seekers/move-on-period-more-than-50000-refugees-could-be-homeless-by-end-of-year
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,181
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Stop The Boats

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A record number of migrants have crossed the English Channel so far this year, according to provisional Home Office figures

    Bop the stoats.

    On a related topic I was faced with quite a depressing sight last night outside Oxford Street John Lewis. At least 8 or 9 men, in blankets sleeping rough, out of the rain. These were not wan heroin addicts, kids looking like they'd run away from home or bearded tramps with cans of special brew. They were young, fit and healthy Middle Eastern (I'd guess Kurdish or Iranian) men. A couple were looking at iPhones. None were begging.

    I can only assume they're recent arrivals whom the home office is not housing, and who are unable to get work or private accommodation. The whole thing looked very...avoidable.
    Well then get a grip and stop the fucking boats and aim for zero immigration. This shit isn’t hard
    Stopping bogus asylum seekers rocking up and gaming the system, absolutely. But we need immigration and will do for the foreseeable future. We should be managing it better but not zero immigration.
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