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This should help Labour in Wellingborough – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,686
edited January 8 in General
This should help Labour in Wellingborough – politicalbetting.com

Disgraced MP Peter Bone has been in talks with Reform UK party about standing as a candidate in the up-coming Wellingborough by-election, which was called because Mr Bone was ousted as Conservative MP for the constituency@ChaplainChloe reportshttps://t.co/YjYWqLh8zw

Read the full story here

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Comments

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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    edited January 2
    The voters were clearly right to recall him. Anybody who shows such poor judgment deserves no place in the House.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Peter, putting the Bone in Bone.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    It's actually not possible for anyone with an ounce of self-awareness to become an MP nowadays, is it?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Pulpstar said:

    Peter, putting the Bone in Bone.

    Putting the bone in bonehead.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,983
    Would I be correct in saying the only way he gets a redundancy payment is by standing as a candidate?

    Either way if he stands it’s an easy Labour win
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,307
    Seems bizarre that Reform would go anywhere near the guy. What's in it for their brand? Or is there a narrative going on somewhere that he was the victim of a woke-gone-mad witch hunt?
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,897

    The voters were clearly right to recall him. Anybody who shows such poor judgment deserves no place in the House.

    It also suggests breathtakingly poor judgement from Reform UK.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,468
    In other X Community Note news, the PM has been noted today;

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1742120380226027632

    Clearly, allowing incorrect statements to the challenged is a good thing, but that's going to rule out 99.9 percent of political communication.

    Are notes on notes going to be the next step?
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,791
    edited January 2
    eek said:

    Would I be correct in saying the only way he gets a redundancy payment is by standing as a candidate?

    Either way if he stands it’s an easy Labour win

    Please please please. It's such a [edit] beautiful not-quite-but-almost-controlled experiment (more or less) of person vs party. Slab lost very badly when it came to Mr Canavan at Falkirk (though in that case Mr C was booted out for simply not following the party line, which some might feel was the worst crime of all, wrongly imv).
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,012
    edited January 2
    Might also help the Tories. They could select, say, a well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area as their candidate with no scandal and completely disconnect Bone from their campaign if he is not even now a member of the Conservative Party let alone a Tory MP but instead the Reform Party candidate in the by election.

    Reform selecting a candidate who has been hit by sexual misconduct allegations also likely reduces likely Tory voter leakage to Reform in the by election too
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,122

    Seems bizarre that Reform would go anywhere near the guy. What's in it for their brand? Or is there a narrative going on somewhere that he was the victim of a woke-gone-mad witch hunt?

    What red blooded male hasn't pushed their exposed genitals in the face of a subordinate?

    I've never really had subordinates so have luckily not had temptation put in my way.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,791
    edited January 2
    eristdoof said:

    The voters were clearly right to recall him. Anybody who shows such poor judgment deserves no place in the House.

    It also suggests breathtakingly poor judgement from Reform UK.
    Not to mention the Tory Party, given how long he has been their MP, now you mention it. Or has something changed?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,267
    eek said:

    Would I be correct in saying the only way he gets a redundancy payment is by standing as a candidate?

    Either way if he stands it’s an easy Labour win

    No, because that only applies in a general election, not to recalled MPs in a by-election:

    https://www.theipsa.org.uk/freedom-of-information/cas-156839
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,003

    Seems bizarre that Reform would go anywhere near the guy. What's in it for their brand? Or is there a narrative going on somewhere that he was the victim of a woke-gone-mad witch hunt?

    I presume the calculation is they would get more votes with the nightmarish Sven Goren Eriksson impersonator than with whatever pub landlord or retired cleaner they would have to field otherwise.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,635
    Endillion said:

    It's actually not possible for anyone with an ounce of self-awareness to become an MP nowadays, is it?

    Agree. I don't have any skeletons in my cupboard, but I wouldn't touch the prospect of getting elected with a barge poll. It would turn me into a gibbering idiot, although that might be a good qualification for the job and some would say I am half way there already.
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    Seems bizarre that Reform would go anywhere near the guy. What's in it for their brand? Or is there a narrative going on somewhere that he was the victim of a woke-gone-mad witch hunt?

    Oxygen of publicity.

    Reform aren't a real political party, they're attention seeking nobodies.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,012
    edited January 2

    The only disappointing thing about Bone being ousted midterm is he's not a possible election night scalp now for a Labour landslide victory.

    There's many MPs the Commons and the Tories would be better off without, he has to have been close to the top of the list.

    Bone has always been firmly on the hard Thatcherite and ERG right of the party
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,791

    Seems bizarre that Reform would go anywhere near the guy. What's in it for their brand? Or is there a narrative going on somewhere that he was the victim of a woke-gone-mad witch hunt?

    What red blooded male hasn't pushed their exposed genitals in the face of a subordinate?

    I've never really had subordinates so have luckily not had temptation put in my way.
    Certaiunly we'll need to be more careful about using the metaphor of 'willy-waving' when describing someone's political discourse. They might take it literally.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    edited January 2

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,726
    edited January 2

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    I would guess the cumulative chances are 99.99%, 0.00000001% and 0.000000005% respectively.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    FPT
    pm215 said:

    Stocky said:

    slade said:

    Quick update on the PB Predictions Competition: The following 45 posters have entered so far, if you think you have entered and are not on the list either PM me or post on here. Cheers!

    (Snip)

    I'll aim to post a summary update after the entry closing (end of Saturday 6 January).

    I missed the competition, what is it please so I can enter?

    Previous thread:

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/01/01/pb-predictions-competition-2024/

    Feel free to post an entry on that thread or this one.
    My predictions/guesses: 10%;Nov 21;Sunak, Starmer, Davey, Yousaf, Tice; Lab 86; Biden, Haley; Biden; 3.5%;2.1%; 120.5; 66.
    If Haley (not Trump) then Biden withdraws IMO.

    If it IS Biden vs Haley then I'd confidently predict Haley.
    I think I disagree on the former and agree on the latter. IMHO if Biden had any intention of withdrawing in favour of somebody else under any contingencies, he would have played the last year or so differently. As it is we are in a position where there is no even halfway plausible alternative or obvious successor to him on the D side, because nobody else has felt able to try to put their case (understandable since running against a sitting President is disruptive to the party). If Biden had had "maybe I won't run" seriously in mind I think he would have been preparing the party to be in reasonable shape for that transition. And the timetable doesn't work for the D party to wait until the R candidate is clear to pick their candidate, because none of the even remotely possible alternatives are on the primary ballot, so it won't be a "Biden drops out and the second placed runner takes over" situation. (Entry for the South Carolina primary closed way back in early November, for example.)

    Agreed that if it ends up that way Haley is favourite, though I'm not super confident -- mostly working on the basis that as a comparative unknown she gets the benefit of not being widely disliked and a big turnout motivator the way Trump is.
    Fully agree.

    We are already too far down the road for Biden to withdraw without serious disruption to the Democrats' nomination process, with replacement candidates unannounced, unready and unable to stand in many primaries. It would probably be possible to fudge something involving the later primaries and the convention but it would be messy.

    Further, the longer Biden waited before withdrawing, the messier it gets, as convention delegates start piling up in his tally, more deadlines are passed and public scrutiny of potential successors goes by the way.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    Amazingly, you can still get 1.03 on the lying clown not being Tory leader at the next election. Free money, for anyone with cash to spare that can’t for any reason be dropped into a 5% interest account.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    eristdoof said:

    The voters were clearly right to recall him. Anybody who shows such poor judgment deserves no place in the House.

    It also suggests breathtakingly poor judgement from Reform UK.
    Agree. There's much more in such an arrangement for Bone than for Reform. MPs often greatly overestimate their personal vote (which in this case may well now be negative).
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285

    The voters were clearly right to recall him. Anybody who shows such poor judgment deserves no place in the House.

    Something that has been obvious to absolutely everyone, apart from the Wellingborough Conservative Association selection committee, for very many years already.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    Endillion said:

    It's actually not possible for anyone with an ounce of self-awareness to become an MP nowadays, is it?

    Not now the ounce is truly defunct, as per the previous thread.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    edited January 2

    Seems bizarre that Reform would go anywhere near the guy. What's in it for their brand? Or is there a narrative going on somewhere that he was the victim of a woke-gone-mad witch hunt?

    Unless and until Farage jumps on board, they just need the publicity. Oakeshott spouting her stream of shite on Thursday night QTs not being sufficient.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,267
    IanB2 said:

    Amazingly, you can still get 1.03 on the lying clown not being Tory leader at the next election. Free money, for anyone with cash to spare that can’t for any reason be dropped into a 5% interest account.

    I was about to protest he’s ineligible anyway, but then I realised you didn’t mean Trump.
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    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,259
    edited January 2
    HYUFD said:

    Might also help the Tories. They could select, say, a well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area as their candidate with no scandal and completely disconnect Bone from their campaign if he is not even now a member of the Conservative Party let alone a Tory MP but instead the Reform Party candidate in the by election.

    Reform selecting a candidate who has been hit by sexual misconduct allegations also likely reduces likely Tory voter leakage to Reform in the by election too

    This is pure fantasy - there is no realistic way that Bone standing against them could help the Conservatives. He'd draw some votes (probably less than he thinks, but some) and they'd surely almost exclusively be from people who'd otherwise vote for the official Conservative candidate.

    As for selecting a "well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area", if they are that well known then there will be ample photos of them with the local MP, and comments from them on what a good egg he is.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,208

    Quick update on the PB Predictions Competition: The following 45 posters have entered so far, if you think you have entered and are not on the list either PM me or post on here. Cheers!

    algarkirk
    Andy_JS
    AugustusCarp2
    AverageNinja
    Benpointer
    bigjohnowls
    Cyclefree
    david_herdson
    DavidL
    dixiedean
    Foxy
    geoffw
    GIN1138
    HYUFD
    IanB2
    Icarus
    kinabalu
    kle4
    londonpubman
    madmacs
    Mexicanpete
    NickPalmer
    No_Offence_Alan
    Northern_Al
    OccasionalOptimist
    OnlyLivingBoy
    partypoliticalorphan
    Pro_Rata
    Pulpstar
    Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Tyndall
    RochdalePioneers
    rottenborough
    Sandpit
    SandyRentool
    SirNorfolkPassmore
    spudgfsh
    Stereodog
    stjohn
    Stuartinromford
    Sunil_Prasannan
    TheKitchenCabinet
    TimS
    Tres
    Verulamius

    I'll aim to post a summary update after the entry closing (end of Saturday 6 January).

    Can we have the summary update before entry closing? It’s just that I would like to enter the mean (or mode) of everyone else’s answers, but can’t be bothered going through to work that out myself. ;-)
    I have read that this is the best way to win a "guess the weight of the cake" or "how many sweets in the jar" competition.
    I won a "how many smarties in the jar" competition when I was a child. I guessed something like 1560 when it was something like 1554 - I remember, I guessed the answer to within 10. Won the jar of smarties.

    I did it by counting how many smarties across made a row, how many smarties deep were in a row, and how many rows in total there were, then doing the maths.
    Uncanny! Is this how you arrive at your micro-economic narrative?
    You mean by using logic, reasoning and sound arithmetic?
    No, just counting Smarties.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    If 'contact' means 'identifying the probable signs of intelligent life', then (c) is near-100%. Humankind has been (mostly inadvertently) broadcasting its presence to the universe for over 100 years now and the natural development of other civilizations would probably do likewise. Certainly, it's unlikely that they'd develop the technology to broadcast into interstellar space but refrain from using it for domestic purposes (which largley overlap) until they were ready to find alien civilizations.

    But the kicker is (d) picking up and identifying the signal.
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,653
    Good piece! Bone standing must make a Labour victory a certainty.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    In terms of political reaction, I'd expect Trump to say "We need to arm ourselves to the teeth to fight off this invader threat!"

    I'd then expect Biden to retort "They are so technologically advanced, it would just give them a good laugh if we tried to fight them off. My proposed course of action is dialogue - and bridging this technology gap through friendship."

    Be interesting to see how it shook up politics. Especially with the Christian right.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    Average odds of a male their age dying in the next year is around 5% - so there's nearly a one in ten chance - though factor in better medical care, and the fact that both are, as far as we know, not suffering from any life threatening conditions, and it's probably less than that.

    But even so, a couple of orders of magnitudes more likely than your alien calculation*.

    *I'd add another couple of orders on top of that, FWIW. Your 50% is a reasonable guess, but the other two not so much. Particularly for "in contact with" vs "We detected a very distant signal not consistent with natural origin".
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,012

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    In terms of political reaction, I'd expect Trump to say "We need to arm ourselves to the teeth to fight off this invader threat!"

    I'd then expect Biden to retort "They are so technologically advanced, it would just give them a good laugh if we tried to fight them off. My proposed course of action is dialogue - and bridging this technology gap through friendship."

    Be interesting to see how it shook up politics. Especially with the Christian right.
    There is nothing in the Bible saying God didn't also create aliens, indeed they might even see them as angels or demons
  • Options
    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,757

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    ... and they have demanded our unconditional surrender.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,635

    HYUFD said:

    The only disappointing thing about Bone being ousted midterm is he's not a possible election night scalp now for a Labour landslide victory.

    There's many MPs the Commons and the Tories would be better off without, he has to have been close to the top of the list.

    Bone has always been firmly on the hard Thatcherite and ERG right of the party
    Two double entendres in the same post! Stiff competition for TSE.
    I would like to believe your double entendre is as unintended as hyufd's were, but I doubt it.
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    IcarusIcarus Posts: 903
    The advantage in putting Bone up for Reform is that he is known in Wellingborough. A lot of former Conservative voters will welcome the opportunity to give the Conservative Government a kicking and may prefer to vote Reform rather than Labour. With Bone as the candidate they are more likely to vote than just stay at home as they have done in other by-elcetions.
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,653

    Seems bizarre that Reform would go anywhere near the guy. What's in it for their brand? Or is there a narrative going on somewhere that he was the victim of a woke-gone-mad witch hunt?

    It plays into the MAGA-esque persecution complex.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    HYUFD said:

    Might also help the Tories. They could select, say, a well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area as their candidate with no scandal and completely disconnect Bone from their campaign if he is not even now a member of the Conservative Party let alone a Tory MP but instead the Reform Party candidate in the by election.

    Reform selecting a candidate who has been hit by sexual misconduct allegations also likely reduces likely Tory voter leakage to Reform in the by election too

    This is pure fantasy - there is no realistic way that Bone standing against them could help the Conservatives. He'd draw some votes (probably less than he thinks, but some) and they'd surely almost exclusively be from people who'd otherwise vote for the official Conservative candidate.

    As for selecting a "well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area", if they are that well known then there will be ample photos of them with the local MP, and comments from them on what a good egg he is.
    Any such comments made before the allegations about bullying became publicly known (or could be proven to have been privately communicated) can be discounted. Local activists saying something positive about their local MP, from their own party, is hardly an unusual occurrence.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,012

    HYUFD said:

    Might also help the Tories. They could select, say, a well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area as their candidate with no scandal and completely disconnect Bone from their campaign if he is not even now a member of the Conservative Party let alone a Tory MP but instead the Reform Party candidate in the by election.

    Reform selecting a candidate who has been hit by sexual misconduct allegations also likely reduces likely Tory voter leakage to Reform in the by election too

    This is pure fantasy - there is no realistic way that Bone standing against them could help the Conservatives. He'd draw some votes (probably less than he thinks, but some) and they'd surely almost exclusively be from people who'd otherwise vote for the official Conservative candidate.

    As for selecting a "well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area", if they are that well known then there will be ample photos of them with the local MP, and comments from them on what a good egg he is.
    It could do as given his current scandal allegations he would likely reduce the Reform vote in the by election compared to what a generic Reform candidate would get, in this case his name recognition could harm him not help him.

    Bone standing as a Reform candidate means any local Tory councillor could now easily disown him as 'the Reform candidate' whereas if he was still a Tory Labour could still tie Bone more easily to them
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    HYUFD said:

    Might also help the Tories. They could select, say, a well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area as their candidate with no scandal and completely disconnect Bone from their campaign if he is not even now a member of the Conservative Party let alone a Tory MP but instead the Reform Party candidate in the by election.

    Reform selecting a candidate who has been hit by sexual misconduct allegations also likely reduces likely Tory voter leakage to Reform in the by election too

    This is pure fantasy - there is no realistic way that Bone standing against them could help the Conservatives. He'd draw some votes (probably less than he thinks, but some) and they'd surely almost exclusively be from people who'd otherwise vote for the official Conservative candidate.

    As for selecting a "well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area", if they are that well known then there will be ample photos of them with the local MP, and comments from them on what a good egg he is.
    Disagree. A protest vote against the Government by going for Reform is a rather less attractive proposition if they are offered one of the lot they were going to vote against in the first place. Probably makes half the reform vote think sod it...half of them not voting, half returning to the Tory fold, now Bone has gone.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,791
    HYUFD said:

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    In terms of political reaction, I'd expect Trump to say "We need to arm ourselves to the teeth to fight off this invader threat!"

    I'd then expect Biden to retort "They are so technologically advanced, it would just give them a good laugh if we tried to fight them off. My proposed course of action is dialogue - and bridging this technology gap through friendship."

    Be interesting to see how it shook up politics. Especially with the Christian right.
    There is nothing in the Bible saying God didn't also create aliens, indeed they might even see them as angels or demons
    The Kirk in Scotland and others were discussing that issue 200 years ago. Neither angels nor demons, but fellow created beings and all that. Memorably re-explored by James Blish in at least one SF book.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Seems bizarre that Reform would go anywhere near the guy. What's in it for their brand? Or is there a narrative going on somewhere that he was the victim of a woke-gone-mad witch hunt?

    If the alternative is Bone standing as an independent, and taking some of the not-Tory right-wing vote, there *may* be an argument that Reform would win more votes with him than against him. But against that, there's the wider angle of the damage he'd do their brand. Plus the fact he might not stand as an independent after all, if no-one else takes him up.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    HYUFD said:

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    In terms of political reaction, I'd expect Trump to say "We need to arm ourselves to the teeth to fight off this invader threat!"

    I'd then expect Biden to retort "They are so technologically advanced, it would just give them a good laugh if we tried to fight them off. My proposed course of action is dialogue - and bridging this technology gap through friendship."

    Be interesting to see how it shook up politics. Especially with the Christian right.
    There is nothing in the Bible saying God didn't also create aliens, indeed they might even see them as angels or demons
    They would almost certainly doubt that God had also sent THEM his only son. Human exceptionalism to the fore....
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,791

    HYUFD said:

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    In terms of political reaction, I'd expect Trump to say "We need to arm ourselves to the teeth to fight off this invader threat!"

    I'd then expect Biden to retort "They are so technologically advanced, it would just give them a good laugh if we tried to fight them off. My proposed course of action is dialogue - and bridging this technology gap through friendship."

    Be interesting to see how it shook up politics. Especially with the Christian right.
    There is nothing in the Bible saying God didn't also create aliens, indeed they might even see them as angels or demons
    They would almost certainly doubt that God had also sent THEM his only son. Human exceptionalism to the fore....
    '"Son"? What's that mean?' might well be their reaction, depending on their reproductive mode. Even some terrestrial organisms would have difficulty - a salmon, a prthenogenetic (and obligately female) lizard, a lichen ...
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320
    @Benpointer

    Hi Ben. Have just put my entry up on the competetion thread. I hope I am not too late. I had been waiting to see what Leondamus had to say so that I could do the opposite but it seems he has been waiting for me with the same intention.

    Thanks for your efforts. All good fun!

    PtP
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    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,259
    edited January 2

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    Why is it going to happen sometime, or at least why would it happen in our lifetimes, let alone in the next few months?

    I don't rule out intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, but it's far from certain. Candidate planets are few and a hell of a long way between. Those that there are may well not have life, or have organic life but not intelligent life, or the intelligent life may have died out millions of years ago.

    Realistically, if we had anything at all, it'd be a matter of detecting a faint signal we can't quite explain and is worth looking into further, noting even if it was sent to us from others it may well have been sent many millennia ago and take us just as long to reply to (which would all be intriguing but of limited political significance). More than that is the stuff of science fiction - nothing is impossible but it's all vanishingly unlikely.


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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,641

    Seems bizarre that Reform would go anywhere near the guy. What's in it for their brand? Or is there a narrative going on somewhere that he was the victim of a woke-gone-mad witch hunt?

    If the alternative is Bone standing as an independent, and taking some of the not-Tory right-wing vote, there *may* be an argument that Reform would win more votes with him than against him. But against that, there's the wider angle of the damage he'd do their brand. Plus the fact he might not stand as an independent after all, if no-one else takes him up.
    I don’t think they need to worry about brand damage. They are going after the same voting bloc that Trump managed to seduce in the US, who consider any complaint about good old fashioned flashing to be either invented or OTT.

    Reform need yo show their polling can translate into actual votes. From this perspective co-opting Bone makes tactical sense.
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    spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,312
    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    HYUFD said:

    The only disappointing thing about Bone being ousted midterm is he's not a possible election night scalp now for a Labour landslide victory.

    There's many MPs the Commons and the Tories would be better off without, he has to have been close to the top of the list.

    Bone has always been firmly on the hard Thatcherite and ERG right of the party
    I don't think there's been any suggestion that the genitals were in any way... engorged. Unless you know differently?
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,960
    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Is it greedy to want all 3 ?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,208
    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    A fascinating hatrick. But who would open all the new food banks in Portsmouth North?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    Why is it going to happen sometime, or at least why would it happen in our lifetimes, let alone in the next few months?

    I don't rule out intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, but it's far from certain. Candidate planets are few and a hell of a long way between. Those that there are may well not have life, or have organic life but not intelligent life, or the intelligent life may have died out millions of years ago.

    Realistically, if we had anything at all, it'd be a matter of detecting a faint signal we can't quite explain and is worth looking into further, noting even if it was sent to us from others may have been sent millennia ago and take just as long to reply to (which would all be intriguing but of limited political significance). More than that is the stuff of science fiction - nothing is impossible but it's all vanishingly unlikely.
    As Leon will no doubt pop along in a bit to confirm, there has been a LOT of stuff going on in the background of the US government to soften us up for such an announcement.

    Although I personally think it more likely we will first get confirmation that signs of life have been detected in analysis of light given off by a planet going round some close-ish star, there is enough noise around images of inexplicable craft in our atmosphere to make a declaration of our being visited by intelligent life distinctly possible.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,468

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    If 'contact' means 'identifying the probable signs of intelligent life', then (c) is near-100%. Humankind has been (mostly inadvertently) broadcasting its presence to the universe for over 100 years now and the natural development of other civilizations would probably do likewise. Certainly, it's unlikely that they'd develop the technology to broadcast into interstellar space but refrain from using it for domestic purposes (which largley overlap) until they were ready to find alien civilizations.

    But the kicker is (d) picking up and identifying the signal.
    Though the window for loud signals from a civilization is probably pretty short- the physics is the same everywhere, so the move to lower power transmitters and high bandwidth cable probably works the same way.

    A better bet is probably to identify a molecule that can only arise through technology and look for that via spectroscopy.

    I suspect the answer is that Space Is Big, big enough to keep civilisations from meeting.

    Which, given the technological prowess you would need for space travel, is probably for the best. If we're lucky, they'd keep us as amusing pets.
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    HYUFD said:

    Might also help the Tories. They could select, say, a well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area as their candidate with no scandal and completely disconnect Bone from their campaign if he is not even now a member of the Conservative Party let alone a Tory MP but instead the Reform Party candidate in the by election.

    Reform selecting a candidate who has been hit by sexual misconduct allegations also likely reduces likely Tory voter leakage to Reform in the by election too

    This is pure fantasy - there is no realistic way that Bone standing against them could help the Conservatives. He'd draw some votes (probably less than he thinks, but some) and they'd surely almost exclusively be from people who'd otherwise vote for the official Conservative candidate.

    As for selecting a "well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area", if they are that well known then there will be ample photos of them with the local MP, and comments from them on what a good egg he is.
    Any such comments made before the allegations about bullying became publicly known (or could be proven to have been privately communicated) can be discounted. Local activists saying something positive about their local MP, from their own party, is hardly an unusual occurrence.
    Oh, it'd all be terribly unfair. But if the Conservative candidate wants to present themselves as a fresh face, and a clean pair of hands, and if they are a local figure from the Wellingborough area, then obviously there will be Labour leaflets it pictures of them smiling with Boner, and quotes from them about what a fabulous guy he is. These won't have a date next to them. That's politics - you're right the Tory candidate can say, "well, if I'd known then what I know now..." but if you're explaining, you're losing.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,581
    Why would "Reform" chose its candidates from the (massive) pool (ahem) of "Conservative" sloppy seconds?

    Bad to the Bone?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,122

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    A fascinating hatrick. But who would open all the new food banks in Portsmouth North?
    Pantries!
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,249
    HYUFD said:

    Might also help the Tories. They could select, say, a well known local councillor from the Wellingborough area as their candidate with no scandal and completely disconnect Bone from their campaign if he is not even now a member of the Conservative Party let alone a Tory MP but instead the Reform Party candidate in the by election.

    Reform selecting a candidate who has been hit by sexual misconduct allegations also likely reduces likely Tory voter leakage to Reform in the by election too

    But Tory voters aren't interested in those things. Bone wasn't just a proper Brexiteer, he practically owned and operated the grass roots campaign.

    Just you watch how disruptive ReFUK can be with a Bone waved in the voter's faces.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,208

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    A fascinating hatrick. But who would open all the new food banks in Portsmouth North?
    Pantries!
    A fair correction. But still, who will stand up and fight for "pantries"?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    In terms of political reaction, I'd expect Trump to say "We need to arm ourselves to the teeth to fight off this invader threat!"

    I'd then expect Biden to retort "They are so technologically advanced, it would just give them a good laugh if we tried to fight them off. My proposed course of action is dialogue - and bridging this technology gap through friendship."

    Be interesting to see how it shook up politics. Especially with the Christian right.
    There is nothing in the Bible saying God didn't also create aliens, indeed they might even see them as angels or demons
    They would almost certainly doubt that God had also sent THEM his only son. Human exceptionalism to the fore....
    '"Son"? What's that mean?' might well be their reaction, depending on their reproductive mode. Even some terrestrial organisms would have difficulty - a salmon, a prthenogenetic (and obligately female) lizard, a lichen ...
    Depends what pronouns they want to be known by.

    Could certainly fire up the woke debate.
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    spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,312
    Scott_xP said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Is it greedy to want all 3 ?
    Give me JRM and I'll be happy.

    that being said, seeing MPs lose their seats is the best bit of election night.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,342

    FPT

    pm215 said:

    Stocky said:

    slade said:

    Quick update on the PB Predictions Competition: The following 45 posters have entered so far, if you think you have entered and are not on the list either PM me or post on here. Cheers!

    (Snip)

    I'll aim to post a summary update after the entry closing (end of Saturday 6 January).

    I missed the competition, what is it please so I can enter?

    Previous thread:

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/01/01/pb-predictions-competition-2024/

    Feel free to post an entry on that thread or this one.
    My predictions/guesses: 10%;Nov 21;Sunak, Starmer, Davey, Yousaf, Tice; Lab 86; Biden, Haley; Biden; 3.5%;2.1%; 120.5; 66.
    If Haley (not Trump) then Biden withdraws IMO.

    If it IS Biden vs Haley then I'd confidently predict Haley.
    I think I disagree on the former and agree on the latter. IMHO if Biden had any intention of withdrawing in favour of somebody else under any contingencies, he would have played the last year or so differently. As it is we are in a position where there is no even halfway plausible alternative or obvious successor to him on the D side, because nobody else has felt able to try to put their case (understandable since running against a sitting President is disruptive to the party). If Biden had had "maybe I won't run" seriously in mind I think he would have been preparing the party to be in reasonable shape for that transition. And the timetable doesn't work for the D party to wait until the R candidate is clear to pick their candidate, because none of the even remotely possible alternatives are on the primary ballot, so it won't be a "Biden drops out and the second placed runner takes over" situation. (Entry for the South Carolina primary closed way back in early November, for example.)

    Agreed that if it ends up that way Haley is favourite, though I'm not super confident -- mostly working on the basis that as a comparative unknown she gets the benefit of not being widely disliked and a big turnout motivator the way Trump is.
    Fully agree.

    We are already too far down the road for Biden to withdraw without serious disruption to the Democrats' nomination process, with replacement candidates unannounced, unready and unable to stand in many primaries. It would probably be possible to fudge something involving the later primaries and the convention but it would be messy.

    Further, the longer Biden waited before withdrawing, the messier it gets, as convention delegates start piling up in his tally, more deadlines are passed and public scrutiny of potential successors goes by the way.
    I expect Biden to stand but no, because IF Biden stands down then the mass of his delegates are released. They don't just shrug and go home. What it probably does is transfer the nomination to whoever Biden chooses to endorse. He'll feel a strong tug towards endorsing his VP, but I wouldn't assume that's a certainty if she continues to poll poorly.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    edited January 2

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    If 'contact' means 'identifying the probable signs of intelligent life', then (c) is near-100%. Humankind has been (mostly inadvertently) broadcasting its presence to the universe for over 100 years now and the natural development of other civilizations would probably do likewise. Certainly, it's unlikely that they'd develop the technology to broadcast into interstellar space but refrain from using it for domestic purposes (which largley overlap) until they were ready to find alien civilizations.

    But the kicker is (d) picking up and identifying the signal.
    The catch really is the unimaginable length of galactic time (think how hugely way back, and hugely long-lasting, the dinosaur period was, in relation to the span of human history), and the critical factor - which is the probability of a civilisation progressing its science and technology to the point where interstellar travel (or communication) becomes possible, versus the probability of that civilisation self-destructing, or wrecking its planetary home to the point where it is unfit for life (or this happening ‘naturally’), before it achieves that.

    Given the size and variety of the universe, the probability that other planets have carried other advanced lifeforms is very high. Whether any of these are around and sufficiently proximate during the span of human history, with the ability to travel to or communicate with us, is extremely low.

    Maybe God, despite purported omnipotence, can actually only cope with the avalanche of casework from one advanced bunch of critters at a time?
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,249
    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Sunak...
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,641

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    A fascinating hatrick. But who would open all the new food banks in Portsmouth North?
    The one of those who would be a Portillo is JRM. The Portillo moment has to be a party bigwig, widely disliked (before repairing their reputation later with interesting TV programmes about trains), and long enough established that their going is iconic.

    JRM all the way. The only others I can think of who’d have similar impact would be Patel, Braverman or Raab before he announced he was stepping down.

    There will of course be a number of Lee Anderson moments as some of the smallest majorities are with the new thug tendency.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,342
    This is probably just clickbait, but worth noting:

    https://twitter.com/politvidchannel/status/1741161192155226539
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,641

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Sunak...
    That counts more as a Clegg or Swinson moment.
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    spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,312

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Sunak...
    as much as you'd want it, his constituency hasn't had anything but Tory since 1906
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,208
    TimS said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    A fascinating hatrick. But who would open all the new food banks in Portsmouth North?
    The one of those who would be a Portillo is JRM. The Portillo moment has to be a party bigwig, widely disliked (before repairing their reputation later with interesting TV programmes about trains), and long enough established that their going is iconic.

    JRM all the way. The only others I can think of who’d have similar impact would be Patel, Braverman or Raab before he announced he was stepping down.

    There will of course be a number of Lee Anderson moments as some of the smallest majorities are with the new thug tendency.
    I suspect 30p will increase his majority, even if that is against trend.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    ... and they have demanded our unconditional surrender.
    Trump would no doubt say that was REALLY what was on Hunter Biden's laptop.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,983
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,977
    eristdoof said:

    The voters were clearly right to recall him. Anybody who shows such poor judgment deserves no place in the House.

    It also suggests breathtakingly poor judgement from Reform UK.
    I beg to differ.
    They've been scoring c9% in opinion polls for ages. Yet every time real votes are cast they struggle to get a quarter of that.
    They need a decent-ish real life performance.
    At least with Bone they'll get some publicity.
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    spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,312
    TimS said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    A fascinating hatrick. But who would open all the new food banks in Portsmouth North?
    The one of those who would be a Portillo is JRM. The Portillo moment has to be a party bigwig, widely disliked (before repairing their reputation later with interesting TV programmes about trains), and long enough established that their going is iconic.

    JRM all the way. The only others I can think of who’d have similar impact would be Patel, Braverman or Raab before he announced he was stepping down.

    There will of course be a number of Lee Anderson moments as some of the smallest majorities are with the new thug tendency.
    the way JRM acts I can't see him repairing his reputation when he loses his seat.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,122

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    If 'contact' means 'identifying the probable signs of intelligent life', then (c) is near-100%. Humankind has been (mostly inadvertently) broadcasting its presence to the universe for over 100 years now and the natural development of other civilizations would probably do likewise. Certainly, it's unlikely that they'd develop the technology to broadcast into interstellar space but refrain from using it for domestic purposes (which largley overlap) until they were ready to find alien civilizations.

    But the kicker is (d) picking up and identifying the signal.
    Though the window for loud signals from a civilization is probably pretty short- the physics is the same everywhere, so the move to lower power transmitters and high bandwidth cable probably works the same way.

    A better bet is probably to identify a molecule that can only arise through technology and look for that via spectroscopy.

    I suspect the answer is that Space Is Big, big enough to keep civilisations from meeting.

    Which, given the technological prowess you would need for space travel, is probably for the best. If we're lucky, they'd keep us as amusing pets.
    They may even find us delicious.

    ‘The tang of adrenaline in these dumb animals induced by the chase tenderises them beautifully..’
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    My suspicion, Ben, is that aliens have already made contact with the more intelligent members of the species - a few women, I believe, but absolutely no men.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,977
    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Up here, Hexham falling would be huge.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,541
    edited January 2

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    I would guess the cumulative chances are 99.99%, 0.00000001% and 0.000000005% respectively.
    a) There is insufficient data on the origin of life at all or of the sort of intelligence, including consciousness, that we have to be able to put any figure on it. It may be zero, it may be indeed 99.99%, and is unlikely to be a figure far away from one of these; but which?

    This won't change until we can show that both life and mental events are in fact emergent properties of the physical order of things, which currently we can't.

    b) If, as claimed, there are reasons to think there are about 6 billion trillion earth like planets around then the tiny probabilities - .many zeros .1% - do in fact come into play.

    c) The absence of evidence thus far - no broadcasts of the Archers from other planets etc - suggests that the answer to (a) might be taken to be Zero until something else turns up.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    On all those Bone gags (and Pincher before him)...

    Given the nominative determinism that seems to rife among Conservative MPs, you can't help but wonder if Richard "Dick" Holden, Chairman of the Party, might not be the next gift that keeps giving....
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    FPT

    pm215 said:

    Stocky said:

    slade said:

    Quick update on the PB Predictions Competition: The following 45 posters have entered so far, if you think you have entered and are not on the list either PM me or post on here. Cheers!

    (Snip)

    I'll aim to post a summary update after the entry closing (end of Saturday 6 January).

    I missed the competition, what is it please so I can enter?

    Previous thread:

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/01/01/pb-predictions-competition-2024/

    Feel free to post an entry on that thread or this one.
    My predictions/guesses: 10%;Nov 21;Sunak, Starmer, Davey, Yousaf, Tice; Lab 86; Biden, Haley; Biden; 3.5%;2.1%; 120.5; 66.
    If Haley (not Trump) then Biden withdraws IMO.

    If it IS Biden vs Haley then I'd confidently predict Haley.
    I think I disagree on the former and agree on the latter. IMHO if Biden had any intention of withdrawing in favour of somebody else under any contingencies, he would have played the last year or so differently. As it is we are in a position where there is no even halfway plausible alternative or obvious successor to him on the D side, because nobody else has felt able to try to put their case (understandable since running against a sitting President is disruptive to the party). If Biden had had "maybe I won't run" seriously in mind I think he would have been preparing the party to be in reasonable shape for that transition. And the timetable doesn't work for the D party to wait until the R candidate is clear to pick their candidate, because none of the even remotely possible alternatives are on the primary ballot, so it won't be a "Biden drops out and the second placed runner takes over" situation. (Entry for the South Carolina primary closed way back in early November, for example.)

    Agreed that if it ends up that way Haley is favourite, though I'm not super confident -- mostly working on the basis that as a comparative unknown she gets the benefit of not being widely disliked and a big turnout motivator the way Trump is.
    Fully agree.

    We are already too far down the road for Biden to withdraw without serious disruption to the Democrats' nomination process, with replacement candidates unannounced, unready and unable to stand in many primaries. It would probably be possible to fudge something involving the later primaries and the convention but it would be messy.

    Further, the longer Biden waited before withdrawing, the messier it gets, as convention delegates start piling up in his tally, more deadlines are passed and public scrutiny of potential successors goes by the way.
    I expect Biden to stand but no, because IF Biden stands down then the mass of his delegates are released. They don't just shrug and go home. What it probably does is transfer the nomination to whoever Biden chooses to endorse. He'll feel a strong tug towards endorsing his VP, but I wouldn't assume that's a certainty if she continues to poll poorly.
    Ooh, maybe it's a conspiracy to get Kamala the nomination. About the only way she could possibly win is a stitch-up whereby Biden pulls out last minute and endorses her.
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    spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,312
    dixiedean said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Up here, Hexham falling would be huge.
    Came close in 1997 (few hundred votes) so it'd be a major upset if it happened and would look bad for the rest of the country for Sunak
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,429
    IanB2 said:

    Oh, and the award for going W-A-Y off topic quickest in a thread goes to....

    If you want a black swan for 2024, what the hell would be the political impact - in the US and the UK - of Biden going on the telly from the Oval Office to confirm that we have been in contact with intelligent life from outside our solar system...

    It's going to happen sometime, why not 2024?

    It's only going to 'happen sometime' if a) there is indeed intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, b) it is able to communicate across the distances involved, and c) it chooses to communicate.

    I would guess the chances are 50%, 1%, and 10%, so 0.05% overall.

    It's a great Black Swan suggestion mind.

    My simpler one is that one of Trump or Biden dies in 2024.
    If 'contact' means 'identifying the probable signs of intelligent life', then (c) is near-100%. Humankind has been (mostly inadvertently) broadcasting its presence to the universe for over 100 years now and the natural development of other civilizations would probably do likewise. Certainly, it's unlikely that they'd develop the technology to broadcast into interstellar space but refrain from using it for domestic purposes (which largley overlap) until they were ready to find alien civilizations.

    But the kicker is (d) picking up and identifying the signal.
    The catch really is the unimaginable length of galactic time (think how hugely way back, and hugely long-lasting, the dinosaur period was, in relation to the span of human history), and the critical factor - which is the probability of a civilisation progressing its science and technology to the point where interstellar travel (or communication) becomes possible, versus the probability of that civilisation self-destructing, or wrecking its planetary home to the point where it is unfit for life (or this happening ‘naturally’), before it achieves that.

    Given the size and variety of the universe, the probability that other planets have carried other advanced lifeforms is very high. Whether any of these are around and sufficiently proximate during the span of human history, with the ability to travel to or communicate with us, is extremely low.

    Maybe God, despite purported omnipotence, can actually only cope with the avalanche of casework from one advanced bunch of critters at a time?
    The Drake equation, for all its problems, is worth a look.

    So far, what we *know* is that lots of planets have formed around stars.
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    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,259
    edited January 2
    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    I don't think we'll get one.

    If it's a very bad election for the Tories, which seems likely, they will of course lose some "names" and opponents will thoroughly enjoy it.

    But Portillo was a class apart as he was the face of the Tory right back in 1997, and the heir presumptive who had (& if memory serves this is literally true) set up his campaign HQ for the leadership campaign that he and many others believed was his to lose.

    Of the three you mention, neither Cleverly nor Mordaunt truly have the pantomime villain quality, and Rees-Mogg is yesterday's man (or at least he's not a serious leadership contender).
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,208

    This is probably just clickbait, but worth noting:

    https://twitter.com/politvidchannel/status/1741161192155226539

    On the other hand they might just throw SCOTUS impartiality to the wind and back Trump. Clarence Thomas will be off rations for eternity if he doesn't back Trump.

    (1.76 pints of mind bleach are enclosed with this post).
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    edited January 2
    dixiedean said:

    eristdoof said:

    The voters were clearly right to recall him. Anybody who shows such poor judgment deserves no place in the House.

    It also suggests breathtakingly poor judgement from Reform UK.
    I beg to differ.
    They've been scoring c9% in opinion polls for ages. Yet every time real votes are cast they struggle to get a quarter of that.
    They need a decent-ish real life performance.
    At least with Bone they'll get some publicity.
    What this tells us is some mix of -

    - many (former) Tory voters are disaffected and will tell pollsters that they will vote for someone else, or will stay at home, whereas in reality when it comes to it some of them at least end up ‘doing the Big_G’;

    - Reform has yet to acquire any sort of nationwide support or membership base to be able to contest elections with any regularity or dynamism.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    eek said:
    A sentiment also picked up by The Independent.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721
    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    It won't happen in a GE (if only there was a by-election), but look at these figures

    C 37.8%
    L 27.8%
    LD 18.6%

    There's also Reform (9.2%) and Green (5.7%)

    If Lab and LibDem (plus Greens?) could come to some arrangement (maybe involving the other half of Fareham constituency, which will form part of the new Hamble Valley constituency) we could have a 'Portillo' moment involving none other than - Suella Braverman (ruling her out as the Tories new opposition leader)

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/calcwork23.py?seat=Fareham and Waterlooville
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,468
    TimS said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    A fascinating hatrick. But who would open all the new food banks in Portsmouth North?
    The one of those who would be a Portillo is JRM. The Portillo moment has to be a party bigwig, widely disliked (before repairing their reputation later with interesting TV programmes about trains), and long enough established that their going is iconic.

    JRM all the way. The only others I can think of who’d have similar impact would be Patel, Braverman or Raab before he announced he was stepping down.

    There will of course be a number of Lee Anderson moments as some of the smallest majorities are with the new thug tendency.
    Careful what you wish for.

    The other thing about the Portillo moment was that it was kind of the making of him. He responded in a surprisingly classy way, which belied his reputation as a right wing Bovver Boy.

    JRM can do civil words. It's the sentences that form and the actions they describe that are ghastly.

    Assuming he loses, the Conservatives will be better off without him. Just beware his reinvention doing a remake of Donald Sinden's Discovering English Churches.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320
    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Probably won't happen but Suella Braverman would be a delight.

    Sir Christopher Chope would also be a treat.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,541
    dixiedean said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Up here, Hexham falling would be huge.
    While its close friend Penrith and Border is sadly no more. Cumbria as a whole should go Labour (none at present) except for Farron's new patch.
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    mickydroymickydroy Posts: 234

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    It won't happen in a GE (if only there was a by-election), but look at these figures

    C 37.8%
    L 27.8%
    LD 18.6%

    There's also Reform (9.2%) and Green (5.7%)

    If Lab and LibDem (plus Greens?) could come to some arrangement (maybe involving the other half of Fareham constituency, which will form part of the new Hamble Valley constituency) we could have a 'Portillo' moment involving none other than - Suella Braverman (ruling her out as the Tories new opposition leader)

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/calcwork23.py?seat=Fareham and Waterlooville
    Come on Fareham get your act together, get her gone
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,960

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Probably won't happen but Suella Braverman would be a delight.

    Sir Christopher Chope would also be a treat.
    Let's face it, there are almost no MPs currently serving on the Tory benches that it won't be nice to see losing.

    TissuePrice perhaps the exception.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,641

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    I don't think we'll get one.

    If it's a very bad election for the Tories, which seems likely, they will of course lose some "names" and opponents will thoroughly enjoy it.

    But Portillo was a class apart as he was the face of the Tory right back in 1997, and the heir presumptive who had (& if memory serves this is literally true) set up his campaign HQ for the leadership campaign that he and many others believed was his to lose.

    Of the three you mention, neither Cleverly nor Mordaunt truly have the pantomime villain quality, and Rees-Mogg is yesterday's man (or at least he's not a serious leadership contender).
    If heir apparent is a precondition then it needs to be Braverman or Badenoch. I think JRM would be more epoch-defining though. He is one of the faces of Brexit. Only Gove and Johnson (no longer an MP) and Farage (not an MP) are in the same category.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    edited January 2

    Why would "Reform" chose its candidates from the (massive) pool (ahem) of "Conservative" sloppy seconds?

    Bad to the Bone?

    Exactly.

    This was one of the (many) mistakes that ChangeUK made. Endeavouring to rerun the SDP pitch of being something fresh and new, then putting up slates of candidates almost all of whom were tired and old.

    To which you can add the failure to advance any sort of political platform or principles, and choosing a name that sat somewhat awkwardly with their true desire to leave pretty much everything exactly as it was.
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,653

    This is probably just clickbait, but worth noting:

    https://twitter.com/politvidchannel/status/1741161192155226539

    They're citing a Daily Mail article, at https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12912337/Donald-Trump-fears-Supreme-Court-Colorado-decision-remove-ballot.html

    And if it's in the Daily Mail, then it must be true!!!!!!
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    spudgfsh said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Sunak...
    as much as you'd want it, his constituency hasn't had anything but Tory since 1906
    Also, Richmond is really not a Labour area; they've got minimal elected presence there and the constituency is huge. You can't just rock up a campaign in six weeks. Likewise, the Lib Dems - who do have a decent number of councillors in rural N Yorks - are targeting Harrogate and will chuck everything at that gain. Even if they feel Harrogate is comfortably in the bag, they won't make that call until *way* too late to switch resources to a non-target seat; probably not until the first postal votes have been seen.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,208
    Scott_xP said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Question for you all. Given that this general election is going to be bad for the Tories regardless as to what they do, do we have any opinions as to who is going to be the 'Portillo moment'?

    A couple of suggestions (based on 1997 results in the constituencies):

    James Cleverly
    Penny Morduant
    Jacob Rees-Mogg

    Probably won't happen but Suella Braverman would be a delight.

    Sir Christopher Chope would also be a treat.
    Let's face it, there are almost no MPs currently serving on the Tory benches that it won't be nice to see losing.

    TissuePrice perhaps the exception.
    It's a shame most of the 24 carat cockroaches are in comfortable seats even in the event of a meltdown. Now Danny Kruger would be the icing on a Pru Leith cake.
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,653

    This is probably just clickbait, but worth noting:

    https://twitter.com/politvidchannel/status/1741161192155226539

    On the other hand they might just throw SCOTUS impartiality to the wind and back Trump. Clarence Thomas will be off rations for eternity if he doesn't back Trump.

    (1.76 pints of mind bleach are enclosed with this post).
    The billionaires who have been kindly supporting Thomas in minor ways that needn't trouble any declaration of interests forms may one day realise that Trump does more harm to them than good.
This discussion has been closed.