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By wins for LAB in the byelections – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    The madness of councils going bust from the expense of private rented housing, when they could have built their own.

    Rising tide of homelessness could bankrupt seaside town
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67076914

    What idiot thought selling of social housing for peanuts was a good idea?
    The idea of selling council stock was a good one.

    Central government nicking most of the proceeds, and legislating to prevent councils building more to replace it was utter idiocy - motivated purely by Thatcher's dislike of local government. But then left unchanged by her successors.
    The problem is not so much the lack of social housing as the lack of housing overall. Had much more been built, to meet demand, prices would never have soared as they have in both rental and purchase sectors.
    You do need lots of properly funded social housing. If the residential property space is nearly all private sector you're too much in the hands of developers, financiers and landlords whose priorities are not aligned to what should be our national objective: a decent affordable place to live for everybody, homes as homes not money making instruments.
    If you have a shortage of housing, then you will have people living in tiny, shitty properties. Plenty of evidence historically.

    If you don't want that, do what the Victorians and Edwardians did. Build whole towns and suburbs, with actual space for people to live.

    The ownership is next to immaterial - look at how much council accommodation is flipped into the rental sector.
    We do need to increase supply - very much so - but doing only that won't solve the housing crisis. It will help a lot but it won't anywhere near meet the aspiration of a decent affordable home for everyone. The split between private and public sector is also important (if we do have this aspiration). We need a good sized, well funded social housing sector to serve people who can't afford to buy or rent in the private sector. There'll always be plenty of these (unless we're planning a radical overhaul of our whole economic model).
    If you have adequate supply, prices will fall. A long way. Check out other countries which dot have housing shortages.

    Trying to “wall off” public sector housing as cheaper just creates a subletting market.
    I'll pass over your 2nd para (nitpicking imo) in order to agree strongly with the 1st - yes yes yes we must build build build. Increase supply wrt demand and all other things being equal prices will fall. Which we definitely want. It's a crazy unhealthy unfair situation we've allowed to develop.

    Although prices are falling now, as it happens, not because of lots of new product but because we're into a new era of 5% money - triple what everyone had got used to. So it looks like we're getting those lower prices anyway. Fwiw I'm expecting a one third fall in real terms over the next 2 to 3 years, half in nominal terms, inflation doing the work for the other half.
    If prices fall by a third, then supply is unlikely to increase - unless you can find ways of building for cheaper.
    Perfectly possible to get increasing supply in a market with falling prices.

    Which is why Panasonic, Sony etc are making televisions on a vast scale.
    The new build sale market relies on properties being sold at a premium and a profit margin for the developer of 20% being achieved on the project, and also for them to take risks in doing it, being able to borrow money cheaply etc. None of these conditions are in place at the moment.
    Yes, it's a great central point that we need to build far more houses but people are being a little too simplistic and evangelical in making out that (i) it's easy to do that with the private sector business model we have and (ii) that even if we do manage it the housing crisis gets voila solved. The government has to roll its sleeves up and get in there, acting for the long term, changing the way we look at and fund residential property.
    Countries without housing shortages manage to build lots of properties. Therefore we need to do what those Dastardly Furrrineeers do.

    We need to remove the bottlenecks in the supply chain of housing. Currently we have permissions stacking up. The reason is largely oligopoly in the property construction market. It is noticeable that in areas where there isn't that oligopoly and substitution is possible - flats in various areas of London - the throttling of the build process is much less evident.

    Most don't explicit government intervention in the housing market to play games with price - apart from the usual planning stuff and some social housing.
    Again, I 100% agree Supply is key - but there other important factors. We've touched on a few: Rates. Social Housing. Developers Business Practices. Private Sector Landlords. Financialization vs Place To Live. It's not just Supply. We have a particular (and rather weird) approach to the whole topic in this country. It reminds me of our private schools fetish slightly. I think it comes from the same place. I don't suppose you know what I'm talking about. I wonder if I do? Yes, I think so but one can never be sure.

    But ok, there's only one way to finish this, forget all of the above and let me say here and now with no clutter or caveat - we should BUILD MORE HOUSES. There. :smile:
    It's a bit like tulips. Mad scarcity vs demand and they become a financial instrument. Sufficient supply and they go back to being nice flowers.
    Oh no you couldn't leave it, could you. I gave you an elegant judicious closer but you have to say something else.

    Ok, cute analogy but Yes and No. It's not just the supply deficit that has led to our bizarre unhealthy irrational approach to residential property. There are those other factors I've mentioned. They're important. Trust me they are.
    No, they're not.

    Its entirely the supply shortage.

    Without the supply shortage, all the other factors you mentioned wouldn't be relevant.

    Take private sector landlords for instance: If there's an abundance of supply then a private sector landlord that holds a property that is put on the market for too much (or in poor quality) then the potential tenants have the ability to ignore that landlord and go elsewhere instead leaving the landlord paying tax on the land he's holding without a tenant to pay for it.
    You're bending the real world into a shape to suit your doctrine. But ok, solution, let's see if the new normal of interest rates triple what everybody got used to does or doesn't lead to a big and permanent real terms drop in house prices. If you're right that only supply matters it won't. If I'm right that other factors, like the cost of money, also matter it will. I think that's better than trying to grind out a result on here.
    High interest rates just puts a cap on the *price* of housing. The actual cost per month will probably be the same, since too many people are chasing too few properties.

    So the telephone number prices will come down a bit. The people paying mortgages (their own or other people’s) won’t see much relief.
    That's true to some extent. We just differ on how much of an extent.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,686

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Jordan fails on his 3rd attempt to become US House Speaker, getting his lowest total yet, just 194 votes.

    210 vote for Jeffries and 25 for Others

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-67153521

    Wonder if some GOP might go over to Hakeem
    No.
    So who from the GOP would the Dems accept ?
    The GOP have a majority it is up to them to elect a Speaker.
    It's not like our HoC Speaker,
    Would Tory MPs vote Starmer for PM?
    That might work politically for the Dems but it means that government will cease to function for a year.

    Like it or not the Dems have a responsibility.
    The Dems don't have to bail out the Republicans.
    The Republicans won the House and it is their responsibility to elect a Speaker (who is basically someone to lead them). Imagine the Tories or Labour refusing to elect a Prime Minister.
    In the US House you can have a Speaker who isn't even a Representative, so Trump or Liz Cheney or anyone could be Speaker.
    If the GOP can't choose a leader it is open to them to come to a power sharing agreement with the Dems. The easiest way out of the impasse is for a moderate Republican to be put forward as Speaker with a few concessions to the Dems. It's time for the Republican majority to stop bowing down to Matt Gaetz and his handful of anarchists.
    There is some talk of the Republican MAGA caucus going for Trump next.
    Trump is far too bone idle to go for that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    Tres said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Jordan fails on his 3rd attempt to become US House Speaker, getting his lowest total yet, just 194 votes.

    210 vote for Jeffries and 25 for Others

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-67153521

    Wonder if some GOP might go over to Hakeem
    No.
    So who from the GOP would the Dems accept ?
    The GOP have a majority it is up to them to elect a Speaker.
    It's not like our HoC Speaker,
    Would Tory MPs vote Starmer for PM?
    That might work politically for the Dems but it means that government will cease to function for a year.

    Like it or not the Dems have a responsibility.
    The Dems don't have to bail out the Republicans.
    The Republicans won the House and it is their responsibility to elect a Speaker (who is basically someone to lead them). Imagine the Tories or Labour refusing to elect a Prime Minister.
    In the US House you can have a Speaker who isn't even a Representative, so Trump or Liz Cheney or anyone could be Speaker.
    If the GOP can't choose a leader it is open to them to come to a power sharing agreement with the Dems. The easiest way out of the impasse is for a moderate Republican to be put forward as Speaker with a few concessions to the Dems. It's time for the Republican majority to stop bowing down to Matt Gaetz and his handful of anarchists.
    There is some talk of the Republican MAGA caucus going for Trump next.
    Trump is far too bone idle to go for that.
    But he would love to hear them say they want him. And pleasing him is the best thing most of them can do for their careers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,551
    rcs1000 said:

    more comic relief via NYT live blog

    > Meanwhile, it’s hard to overstate how spitting mad conservatives are. Representative Matt Gaetz of Florida says Jordan was “knifed by secret ballot, anonymously, in a closed-door meeting in the bowels of the Capitol.” Gaetz says, “This was truly swamp tactics on display.”

    SSI - Pretty rich coming from a guy who wallows in filth personal & public AND is totally full of shit.]

    > Representative Andy Ogles of Tennessee said it was “absurd” that Republicans were going home for the weekend instead of restarting the process immediately. He added that a majority of the members in the conference shouted “No!” when the schedule was announced. “We’re not done, and we shouldn’t be leaving,” he said.

    > Representative Marc Molinaro, who voted against Jordan on the third ballot, said that Jordan told the conference after the vote that if they wanted to start the process over he would support their decision. He received a standing ovation.

    SSI - What Coach Jockstrap did NOT say, was that he would NOT be a candidate if, or rather when, the "process" as they laughingly call it, resumes, whenever that is.

    BTW, appears that JJ and his fellow Rabid Flying Squirrels want a weekend recess, so that there will be more time for death threats and other brownshirt shenanigans against GOP holdouts, and waverers.

    The lack of self awareness from people like Gaetz is quite astonishing.
    Oh, they know what they’re doing.
    It’s more the lack of shame or compunction.
  • Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Speaking of Labour DNA, recent read the Diaries of Tony Benn, and on number of entries he made same point your making re: technology making ID cards increasingly dangerous.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,258
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Forget about all of those, it's introducing proportional representation that would be important. The Tories would never be able to win again on their own.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,772
    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
  • Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    more comic relief via NYT live blog

    > Meanwhile, it’s hard to overstate how spitting mad conservatives are. Representative Matt Gaetz of Florida says Jordan was “knifed by secret ballot, anonymously, in a closed-door meeting in the bowels of the Capitol.” Gaetz says, “This was truly swamp tactics on display.”

    SSI - Pretty rich coming from a guy who wallows in filth personal & public AND is totally full of shit.]

    > Representative Andy Ogles of Tennessee said it was “absurd” that Republicans were going home for the weekend instead of restarting the process immediately. He added that a majority of the members in the conference shouted “No!” when the schedule was announced. “We’re not done, and we shouldn’t be leaving,” he said.

    > Representative Marc Molinaro, who voted against Jordan on the third ballot, said that Jordan told the conference after the vote that if they wanted to start the process over he would support their decision. He received a standing ovation.

    SSI - What Coach Jockstrap did NOT say, was that he would NOT be a candidate if, or rather when, the "process" as they laughingly call it, resumes, whenever that is.

    BTW, appears that JJ and his fellow Rabid Flying Squirrels want a weekend recess, so that there will be more time for death threats and other brownshirt shenanigans against GOP holdouts, and waverers.

    The lack of self awareness from people like Gaetz is quite astonishing.
    Oh, they know what they’re doing.
    It’s more the lack of shame or compunction.
    And Gaetz did even attend Eton. Where he'd no doubt made a 1st-rate school bully.

    An American Bully!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,772
    I heard things about Owen Jones that REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED blush
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,772
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Forget about all of those, it's introducing proportional representation that would be important. The Tories would never be able to win again on their own.
    But, probably, nor would Labour. Can't see it
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,185
    Hoping the second semi is a bit closer than the first…
  • Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Forget about all of those, it's introducing proportional representation that would be important. The Tories would never be able to win again on their own.
    I'd quite like to see proportional representation so Labiur would never be able to govern on their own!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,772

    Hoping the second semi is a bit closer than the first…

    This is pretty dreadful as a competiton. It's like one of the worst of the pool games. Really not good for rugby

    The draw was a disgrace

    The two semi finals have already been played: SA v France, NZ v Ireland
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,185
    Leon said:

    Hoping the second semi is a bit closer than the first…

    This is pretty dreadful as a competiton. It's like one of the worst of the pool games. Really not good for rugby

    The draw was a disgrace

    The two semi finals have already been played: SA v France, NZ v Ireland
    Last weekend was epic. This weekend could be a damp squid.*


    *I know it’s squib but can’t resist using squid as I’ve seen others use it in earnest…
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    Like China, you mean.

    A nightmare vision - and one I am glad I won't be living in.

    As for a crime free society, that's La La Land - crime will exist wherever humans exist. And technology of the sort that so captivates you will make it worse.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,185
    Leon said:

    Hoping the second semi is a bit closer than the first…

    This is pretty dreadful as a competiton. It's like one of the worst of the pool games. Really not good for rugby

    The draw was a disgrace

    The two semi finals have already been played: SA v France, NZ v Ireland
    Quite why they thought that France couldn’t organise the staging with a draw say six months out - like the bigger Football World Cup, I have no idea.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,084
    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,772

    Leon said:

    Hoping the second semi is a bit closer than the first…

    This is pretty dreadful as a competiton. It's like one of the worst of the pool games. Really not good for rugby

    The draw was a disgrace

    The two semi finals have already been played: SA v France, NZ v Ireland
    Last weekend was epic. This weekend could be a damp squid.*


    *I know it’s squib but can’t resist using squid as I’ve seen others use it in earnest…
    England maybe have a slender claim to a place in the semis - unbeaten, the winning game against Argie with 14 men, beating Fiji, Argentina have no such claim, all they did was beat Wales FFS

    I really wish rugby had more strength in depth, worldwide, but it doesn't. It needs three or four more teams to be REALLY competitive - ie capable of beating the best at any time. Japan? Georgia? Italy? Portugal? Imagine four more world class teams to add to the top five or six. Then a world cup would be a superb thing. Like football

    So far, it isn't near that
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,772
    edited October 2023
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    Like China, you mean.

    A nightmare vision - and one I am glad I won't be living in.

    As for a crime free society, that's La La Land - crime will exist wherever humans exist. And technology of the sort that so captivates you will make it worse.
    It doesn't "captivate" me at all, I'm just honestly extrapolating. It could easily be dystopian

    I'm merely pointing out the likely future. Most people will hand over alleged social "freedoms" for total crime-free security
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,603
    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,258
    Leon said:

    Hoping the second semi is a bit closer than the first…

    This is pretty dreadful as a competiton. It's like one of the worst of the pool games. Really not good for rugby

    The draw was a disgrace

    The two semi finals have already been played: SA v France, NZ v Ireland
    Oddly enough the cricket world cup has also been pretty poor, with hardly any close matches. Today's game between Australia and Pakistan was the closest one so far IIRC.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,185
    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    I’m not convinced. After all, you are not required to carry your driving licence when driving.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited October 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Has anyone ever lost money betting on the New Zealand rugby team?

    Yes, me. On three occasions. I’ve seen the All Blacks play live twice, at Twickenham in 2002 and in 2012, and England won them both. On both occasions I had money on NZ. The other time was when I drew them in a work sweepstake at the 2007 RWC.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,361
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    Like China, you mean.

    A nightmare vision - and one I am glad I won't be living in.

    As for a crime free society, that's La La Land - crime will exist wherever humans exist. And technology of the sort that so captivates you will make it worse.
    It doesn't "captivate" me at all, I'm just honestly extrapolating. It could easily be dystopian

    I'm merely pointing out the likely future. Most people will hand over alleged social "freedoms" for total crime-free security
    It will be like living in a giant airport terminal.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    nico679 said:

    Some good news . Hamas have released two American hostages .

    No more detail as to how this was brokered .

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Liz Truss was not involved in facilitating the negotiation. The final piece of the jigsaw that brings her back perhaps?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,805
    Do you know what time it is?

    It's all the trains are fucked o'clock

    I am stuck in [train station] amongst the drunks, and my ETA back to little flat is "probably before midnight". Apparently most of England is underwater. This may be an aesthetic improvement but Charlie Train Don't Surf. All the big butch trains are hiding until they can get their wellies on. Oh, Lord, I'd forgotten how much drunks smell. Friday night, eh?

    Grrr. 👿
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    Like China, you mean.

    A nightmare vision - and one I am glad I won't be living in.

    As for a crime free society, that's La La Land - crime will exist wherever humans exist. And technology of the sort that so captivates you will make it worse.
    It doesn't "captivate" me at all, I'm just honestly extrapolating. It could easily be dystopian

    I'm merely pointing out the likely future. Most people will hand over alleged social "freedoms" for total crime-free security
    This does remind me that I’ve not watched Robocop in a while. A masterpiece; possibly Verhoeven’s best (and he’s got quite a catalogue) alongside Black Book.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,603
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hoping the second semi is a bit closer than the first…

    This is pretty dreadful as a competiton. It's like one of the worst of the pool games. Really not good for rugby

    The draw was a disgrace

    The two semi finals have already been played: SA v France, NZ v Ireland
    Last weekend was epic. This weekend could be a damp squid.*


    *I know it’s squib but can’t resist using squid as I’ve seen others use it in earnest…
    England maybe have a slender claim to a place in the semis - unbeaten, the winning game against Argie with 14 men, beating Fiji, Argentina have no such claim, all they did was beat Wales FFS

    I really wish rugby had more strength in depth, worldwide, but it doesn't. It needs three or four more teams to be REALLY competitive - ie capable of beating the best at any time. Japan? Georgia? Italy? Portugal? Imagine four more world class teams to add to the top five or six. Then a world cup would be a superb thing. Like football

    So far, it isn't near that
    The blessing and the curse of rugby is that the best team always wins. Now, sometimes an on-paper better team might get beaten if the underdog puts on the performance if their lives - but in football, Brazil might sometimes lose to much poorer opposition in a way that simply doesn't happen to New Zealand in rugby.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,805
    viewcode said:

    Do you know what time it is?

    It's all the trains are fucked o'clock

    I am stuck in [train station] amongst the drunks, and my ETA back to little flat is "probably before midnight". Apparently most of England is underwater. This may be an aesthetic improvement but Charlie Train Don't Surf. All the big butch trains are hiding until they can get their wellies on. Oh, Lord, I'd forgotten how much drunks smell. Friday night, eh?

    Grrr. 👿

    When I am made supreme commander of the universe I will ban alcohol. And people. And trains. Sensible policies for a happier Britain.

    (And I'll still get more votes than Sunak... 😀)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Leon said:

    Hoping the second semi is a bit closer than the first…

    This is pretty dreadful as a competiton. It's like one of the worst of the pool games. Really not good for rugby

    The draw was a disgrace

    The two semi finals have already been played: SA v France, NZ v Ireland
    Quite why they thought that France couldn’t organise the staging with a draw say six months out - like the bigger Football World Cup, I have no idea.
    The draw always happens a couple of years in advance. There was nothing new about it this time. It’s a flaw but not a new flaw at this RWC.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,688
    England are 20 on Betfair to win World Cup.

    Just two wins ...........
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,258
    edited October 2023
    viewcode said:

    Do you know what time it is?

    It's all the trains are fucked o'clock

    I am stuck in [train station] amongst the drunks, and my ETA back to little flat is "probably before midnight". Apparently most of England is underwater. This may be an aesthetic improvement but Charlie Train Don't Surf. All the big butch trains are hiding until they can get their wellies on. Oh, Lord, I'd forgotten how much drunks smell. Friday night, eh?

    Grrr. 👿

    You'd have thought the UK would have learnt how to cope with rain by now.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,667
    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
    fingerprints should be sufficient

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hoping the second semi is a bit closer than the first…

    This is pretty dreadful as a competiton. It's like one of the worst of the pool games. Really not good for rugby

    The draw was a disgrace

    The two semi finals have already been played: SA v France, NZ v Ireland
    Last weekend was epic. This weekend could be a damp squid.*


    *I know it’s squib but can’t resist using squid as I’ve seen others use it in earnest…
    England maybe have a slender claim to a place in the semis - unbeaten, the winning game against Argie with 14 men, beating Fiji, Argentina have no such claim, all they did was beat Wales FFS

    I really wish rugby had more strength in depth, worldwide, but it doesn't. It needs three or four more teams to be REALLY competitive - ie capable of beating the best at any time. Japan? Georgia? Italy? Portugal? Imagine four more world class teams to add to the top five or six. Then a world cup would be a superb thing. Like football

    So far, it isn't near that
    The blessing and the curse of rugby is that the best team always wins. Now, sometimes an on-paper better team might get beaten if the underdog puts on the performance if their lives - but in football, Brazil might sometimes lose to much poorer opposition in a way that simply doesn't happen to New Zealand in rugby.
    That’s not true. France won the Wooden Spoon in the 1999 5 Nations (soon to become 6) then famously beat the AB’s in the semi finals that November. See also England v Australia at RWC 2007 and various times England have fallen at the final hurdle of a Grand Slam attempt.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    I’m not convinced. After all, you are not required to carry your driving licence when driving.
    Not convinced it will happen or not convinced they will try to make it happen?

    The idea keeps coming up over and over again, and always sold as some grand user friendly thing that could not possibly be misused, but frankly to me the benefits claimed seem marginal and the risks great, so it a watchful eye needs to be kept for moves in that direction. It's non-partisan as well, it just seems attractive to governments generally.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    Like China, you mean.

    A nightmare vision - and one I am glad I won't be living in.

    As for a crime free society, that's La La Land - crime will exist wherever humans exist. And technology of the sort that so captivates you will make it worse.
    It doesn't "captivate" me at all, I'm just honestly extrapolating. It could easily be dystopian

    I'm merely pointing out the likely future. Most people will hand over alleged social "freedoms" for total crime-free security
    They'll hand over freedoms and get no security in return.

    We've seen this story play out before.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,595
    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    You’re demonstrating your inability to think outside the box there, rather embarrassingly.

    There is no need to for Starmer to be especially fiscally constrained. He could raise plenty more by:
    - extending NI to all earnings (or replacing NI with ICT)
    - increasing taxes on the highest earners
    - introducing a land value tax and/or wealth tax

    Whether Starmer is any better at thinking outside the box than you remains to be seen.
  • DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Hoping the second semi is a bit closer than the first…

    This is pretty dreadful as a competiton. It's like one of the worst of the pool games. Really not good for rugby

    The draw was a disgrace

    The two semi finals have already been played: SA v France, NZ v Ireland
    Quite why they thought that France couldn’t organise the staging with a draw say six months out - like the bigger Football World Cup, I have no idea.
    The draw always happens a couple of years in advance. There was nothing new about it this time. It’s a flaw but not a new flaw at this RWC.
    There might have been complaints about the seeding when England failed to make it out of their group in 2015 - having been beaten by Wales and Australia - but I don't remember any.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    Like China, you mean.

    A nightmare vision - and one I am glad I won't be living in.

    As for a crime free society, that's La La Land - crime will exist wherever humans exist. And technology of the sort that so captivates you will make it worse.
    It doesn't "captivate" me at all, I'm just honestly extrapolating. It could easily be dystopian

    I'm merely pointing out the likely future. Most people will hand over alleged social "freedoms" for total crime-free security
    I think that's very likely to be honest. Very few of us will be free from giving something up in the name of convenience, I certainly am not free of it, and for the most part if something is not a day to day annoyance we won't care what is lost.

    Sci fi tales about people happily (or mostly happily) living in AI run constant monitoring societies are probably not far off the mark. It depends on the author whether they see that as inherently sinister or not, Iain M Banks vs Neal Asher style.

    Of course, some would claim Demolition Man is the most prescient prediction of today that the past came up with.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    Like China, you mean.

    A nightmare vision - and one I am glad I won't be living in.

    As for a crime free society, that's La La Land - crime will exist wherever humans exist. And technology of the sort that so captivates you will make it worse.
    It doesn't "captivate" me at all, I'm just honestly extrapolating. It could easily be dystopian

    I'm merely pointing out the likely future. Most people will hand over alleged social "freedoms" for total crime-free security
    They'll hand over freedoms and get no security in return.

    We've seen this story play out before.
    It might be said given the way we give up freedoms and rights that we barely deserve them, so are damn lucky we've been in a society which has them in the first place, as most don't.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,258
    edited October 2023
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,805
    I AM ON THE TRAIN. VIEWCODE IS ON THE TRAIN. SO FAR NO DRUNKS IN THE CARRIAGE. HOPE IS KINDLED.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,868
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    Like China, you mean.

    A nightmare vision - and one I am glad I won't be living in.

    As for a crime free society, that's La La Land - crime will exist wherever humans exist. And technology of the sort that so captivates you will make it worse.
    It doesn't "captivate" me at all, I'm just honestly extrapolating. It could easily be dystopian

    I'm merely pointing out the likely future. Most people will hand over alleged social "freedoms" for total crime-free security
    I think that's very likely to be honest. Very few of us will be free from giving something up in the name of convenience, I certainly am not free of it, and for the most part if something is not a day to day annoyance we won't care what is lost.

    Sci fi tales about people happily (or mostly happily) living in AI run constant monitoring societies are probably not far off the mark. It depends on the author whether they see that as inherently sinister or not, Iain M Banks vs Neal Asher style.

    Of course, some would claim Demolition Man is the most prescient prediction of today that the past came up with.
    When people started doing that elbow bump thing instead of handshakes, I really began to wonder how far away we are from the three seashells in this timeline.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    Like China, you mean.

    A nightmare vision - and one I am glad I won't be living in.

    As for a crime free society, that's La La Land - crime will exist wherever humans exist. And technology of the sort that so captivates you will make it worse.
    It doesn't "captivate" me at all, I'm just honestly extrapolating. It could easily be dystopian

    I'm merely pointing out the likely future. Most people will hand over alleged social "freedoms" for total crime-free security
    This does remind me that I’ve not watched Robocop in a while. A masterpiece; possibly Verhoeven’s best (and he’s got quite a catalogue) alongside Black Book.
    Total Recall, Starship Troopers, the man could do good sci-fi.

    I read a rumour he deliberately hired good looking but not great actors for Starship Troopers to nail the political propaganda style to everything.
  • geoffw said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
    fingerprints should be sufficient

    About 20 years ago I was pulled over by the police late at night on the motorway (they didn't give me a reason, even though I asked). One checked the car over with a torch, while the other asked for my driving licence, which I didn't have. So they asked me if I had a bank card, which I did, he took it, spoke to someone on the radio, seemed to get some sort of corfirnation, and then sent me on my way. The whole thing was a little weird, but what freaked me out more than anything was the fact that they seemed to be able to confirm my ID from my bank card. Nowadays that wouldn't surprise me, but back then, it seemed a bit Big Brother. It still is a bit Big Brother, but it's sadly the world we live in now. Very little is secret and we can all be tracked very easily (except for covid, apparently)

    As to why they stopped me, I never found out.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,325
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    I think we are heading inexorably in this direction. If you see the constant failings in the current system of policing in solving crime then the temptation is to just get rid of crime through continuous surveillance. So doing any crime just becomes an act of stupidity. In fact if you look at the tories they are already going along this road, they are uploading all our passport pictures to police AI/facial recognition databases. So this is 13 years after they made a point of scrapping ID cards, out of desperation they do this. The phenomena of crime will eventually just pass. It is the unstoppable desire to look to the government for safety that keeps manifesting itself in various policy initiatives.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    edited October 2023
    kyf_100 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    Like China, you mean.

    A nightmare vision - and one I am glad I won't be living in.

    As for a crime free society, that's La La Land - crime will exist wherever humans exist. And technology of the sort that so captivates you will make it worse.
    It doesn't "captivate" me at all, I'm just honestly extrapolating. It could easily be dystopian

    I'm merely pointing out the likely future. Most people will hand over alleged social "freedoms" for total crime-free security
    I think that's very likely to be honest. Very few of us will be free from giving something up in the name of convenience, I certainly am not free of it, and for the most part if something is not a day to day annoyance we won't care what is lost.

    Sci fi tales about people happily (or mostly happily) living in AI run constant monitoring societies are probably not far off the mark. It depends on the author whether they see that as inherently sinister or not, Iain M Banks vs Neal Asher style.

    Of course, some would claim Demolition Man is the most prescient prediction of today that the past came up with.
    When people started doing that elbow bump thing instead of handshakes, I really began to wonder how far away we are from the three seashells in this timeline.
    A culture run by outwardly peaceful and gentle bureaucrats who nonetheless tyrannically impose their 'superior' values onto everyone by force of law, engaging in hypocritical suppression of those who buck the system as they seek to eliminate any deviation from a neutered, vapid emotional template.

    What's not to love?

    In my darker moments I worry my own placid temperament needs to release a bit of my inner Leon lest that nightmare society is what follows.
  • Andy_JS said:
    Thank god we went up to Newcastle last week.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,084

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    You’re demonstrating your inability to think outside the box there, rather embarrassingly.

    There is no need to for Starmer to be especially fiscally constrained. He could raise plenty more by:
    - extending NI to all earnings (or replacing NI with ICT)
    - increasing taxes on the highest earners
    - introducing a land value tax and/or wealth tax

    Whether Starmer is any better at thinking outside the box than you remains to be seen.
    From memory a wealth tax has been ruled out - which is a pity because it would allow council tax to be replaced or at leat replaced by something that reflected current prices.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,347
    Tice now snapping at Rishi's heels

    @TiceRichard
    ·
    18h
    Huge thanks to Ian Cooper
    @Ian4Tamworth
    and Dave Holland
    @midbedsreformuk
    our
    @reformparty_uk
    candidates in the by-elections.

    In both seats
    @reformparty_uk
    ’s share of vote exceeded Labour majority over the Conservatives.

    https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1715196649264267391?s=20

    @TiceRichard
    Common sense ⁦
    @reformparty_uk
    ⁩ policies gaining traction

    We stand everywhere & will have significant effect at General Election

    Tories & Labour = two forms of socialism: high tax, high regulation = low growth
    https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1715315638229430323?s=20

    @TiceRichard
    ·
    11h
    Fact is David people do not want to reward 13 yrs Tory broken promises & failure.
    Just consocialists, high tax high regs with mass immigration
    We stand everywhere to punish your party’s failure

    https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1715401584191078615?s=20
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,878

    geoffw said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
    fingerprints should be sufficient

    About 20 years ago I was pulled over by the police late at night on the motorway (they didn't give me a reason, even though I asked). One checked the car over with a torch, while the other asked for my driving licence, which I didn't have. So they asked me if I had a bank card, which I did, he took it, spoke to someone on the radio, seemed to get some sort of corfirnation, and then sent me on my way. The whole thing was a little weird, but what freaked me out more than anything was the fact that they seemed to be able to confirm my ID from my bank card. Nowadays that wouldn't surprise me, but back then, it seemed a bit Big Brother. It still is a bit Big Brother, but it's sadly the world we live in now. Very little is secret and we can all be tracked very easily (except for covid, apparently)

    As to why they stopped me, I never found out.
    Are you black?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    Andy_JS said:
    Experienced something like that once. All trains out from Kings Cross were cancelled for some reason, so everyone piled across the city to another, then, at peak commuter time in August, stood like literal sardines on the world's slowest trains to get out, as hundreds who normally caught those trains stood on platforms glaring at those of us inside.

    Ghastly.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,805

    geoffw said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
    fingerprints should be sufficient

    About 20 years ago I was pulled over by the police late at night on the motorway (they didn't give me a reason, even though I asked). One checked the car over with a torch, while the other asked for my driving licence, which I didn't have. So they asked me if I had a bank card, which I did, he took it, spoke to someone on the radio, seemed to get some sort of corfirnation, and then sent me on my way. The whole thing was a little weird, but what freaked me out more than anything was the fact that they seemed to be able to confirm my ID from my bank card. Nowadays that wouldn't surprise me, but back then, it seemed a bit Big Brother. It still is a bit Big Brother, but it's sadly the world we live in now. Very little is secret and we can all be tracked very easily (except for covid, apparently)

    As to why they stopped me, I never found out.
    It was probably the shotguns in the back seat

    😀
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    edited October 2023
    Also, I hated the elbow bump thing. I was ok with doing a namaste instead. At least that's something human beings actually do naturally.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,170
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Experienced something like that once. All trains out from Kings Cross were cancelled for some reason, so everyone piled across the city to another, then, at peak commuter time in August, stood like literal sardines on the world's slowest trains to get out, as hundreds who normally caught those trains stood on platforms glaring at those of us inside.

    Ghastly.
    Last time I travelled abroad, for whatever reason the only trains from London to Birmingham the night I got back were from Marylebone.

    They were...full.

    I'm going abroad again on Tuesday, I'm hoping the WCML has sorted itself out by then so I can get to Gatwick.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,347
    @SophyRidgeSky
    A few messages I've received from Conservative MPs in response to the by elections:

    "The problem with the PM is while he may be a first rate academic he is a fifth rate politician. He does not connect, he has the leadership qualities of an amoeba."
    https://x.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/1715445358887645595?s=20
  • viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
    fingerprints should be sufficient

    About 20 years ago I was pulled over by the police late at night on the motorway (they didn't give me a reason, even though I asked). One checked the car over with a torch, while the other asked for my driving licence, which I didn't have. So they asked me if I had a bank card, which I did, he took it, spoke to someone on the radio, seemed to get some sort of corfirnation, and then sent me on my way. The whole thing was a little weird, but what freaked me out more than anything was the fact that they seemed to be able to confirm my ID from my bank card. Nowadays that wouldn't surprise me, but back then, it seemed a bit Big Brother. It still is a bit Big Brother, but it's sadly the world we live in now. Very little is secret and we can all be tracked very easily (except for covid, apparently)

    As to why they stopped me, I never found out.
    It was probably the shotguns in the back seat

    😀
    😂 Actually two small children saying "are we there yet?" which were far more terrifying
    The other half suggested that an old, arge but very powerful car being driven late at night was a red flag. Who knows? They were probably bored and wanted to harass someone
  • HYUFD said:

    Tice now snapping at Rishi's heels

    @TiceRichard
    ·
    18h
    Huge thanks to Ian Cooper
    @Ian4Tamworth
    and Dave Holland
    @midbedsreformuk
    our
    @reformparty_uk
    candidates in the by-elections.

    In both seats
    @reformparty_uk
    ’s share of vote exceeded Labour majority over the Conservatives.

    https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1715196649264267391?s=20

    @TiceRichard
    Common sense ⁦
    @reformparty_uk
    ⁩ policies gaining traction

    We stand everywhere & will have significant effect at General Election

    Tories & Labour = two forms of socialism: high tax, high regulation = low growth
    https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1715315638229430323?s=20

    @TiceRichard
    ·
    11h
    Fact is David people do not want to reward 13 yrs Tory broken promises & failure.
    Just consocialists, high tax high regs with mass immigration
    We stand everywhere to punish your party’s failure

    https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1715401584191078615?s=20

    Why isn't he doing the decent, Farage-like thing and giving a clear run to those Tory MPs who share his vision?
  • geoffw said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
    fingerprints should be sufficient

    About 20 years ago I was pulled over by the police late at night on the motorway (they didn't give me a reason, even though I asked). One checked the car over with a torch, while the other asked for my driving licence, which I didn't have. So they asked me if I had a bank card, which I did, he took it, spoke to someone on the radio, seemed to get some sort of corfirnation, and then sent me on my way. The whole thing was a little weird, but what freaked me out more than anything was the fact that they seemed to be able to confirm my ID from my bank card. Nowadays that wouldn't surprise me, but back then, it seemed a bit Big Brother. It still is a bit Big Brother, but it's sadly the world we live in now. Very little is secret and we can all be tracked very easily (except for covid, apparently)

    As to why they stopped me, I never found out.
    Are you black?
    😂
    No.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,258
    Serious question. Is the drought over in southern England?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,805
    kle4 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Compared to what certainly approaches us - AI. AGI. ASI, and the overwhelming power of AI-fuelled technocracy - ID cards are yesterday's rather trivial battle. Trust me

    AI has the ability to enforce near-crime-free societies. We will take the chance, and hand it all over to the robots
    Like China, you mean.

    A nightmare vision - and one I am glad I won't be living in.

    As for a crime free society, that's La La Land - crime will exist wherever humans exist. And technology of the sort that so captivates you will make it worse.
    It doesn't "captivate" me at all, I'm just honestly extrapolating. It could easily be dystopian

    I'm merely pointing out the likely future. Most people will hand over alleged social "freedoms" for total crime-free security
    This does remind me that I’ve not watched Robocop in a while. A masterpiece; possibly Verhoeven’s best (and he’s got quite a catalogue) alongside Black Book.
    Total Recall, Starship Troopers, the man could do good sci-fi.

    I read a rumour he deliberately hired good looking but not great actors for Starship Troopers to nail the political propaganda style to everything.
    I seem to remember that. It would explain the acting styles in "Showgirls". He had the men and women shower together in the shower scene. To "reassure" them he also showered nude. Verhoeven is - how can I put it - a massive perve. He's basically Goldmember with better hair. But for about ten-fifteen years he made great choices. Total Recall, Robocop, Starship Troopers. Not bad to have those on your CV.
  • HYUFD said:

    @SophyRidgeSky
    A few messages I've received from Conservative MPs in response to the by elections:

    "The problem with the PM is while he may be a first rate academic he is a fifth rate politician. He does not connect, he has the leadership qualities of an amoeba."
    https://x.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/1715445358887645595?s=20

    'first rate academic'?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,212
    The Tories according to the DT hope to get an election boost by giving higher earners a tax cut . Apparently polls show its popular with Tory voters whilst everyone else effectively is told to go and fxck themselves !

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,805

    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
    fingerprints should be sufficient

    About 20 years ago I was pulled over by the police late at night on the motorway (they didn't give me a reason, even though I asked). One checked the car over with a torch, while the other asked for my driving licence, which I didn't have. So they asked me if I had a bank card, which I did, he took it, spoke to someone on the radio, seemed to get some sort of corfirnation, and then sent me on my way. The whole thing was a little weird, but what freaked me out more than anything was the fact that they seemed to be able to confirm my ID from my bank card. Nowadays that wouldn't surprise me, but back then, it seemed a bit Big Brother. It still is a bit Big Brother, but it's sadly the world we live in now. Very little is secret and we can all be tracked very easily (except for covid, apparently)

    As to why they stopped me, I never found out.
    It was probably the shotguns in the back seat

    😀
    😂 Actually two small children saying "are we there yet?" which were far more terrifying
    The other half suggested that an old, arge but very powerful car being driven late at night was a red flag. Who knows? They were probably bored and wanted to harass someone
    What colour was the car? Was it in the time where they used to play Car Snooker?
  • nico679 said:

    The Tories according to the DT hope to get an election boost by giving higher earners a tax cut . Apparently polls show its popular with Tory voters whilst everyone else effectively is told to go and fxck themselves !

    Rev HY suggested the same earlier. Apparently Tory voters do not send their kids to school, use the NHS, get their bins collected etc etc so do not worry that everything is broken.

    Well, apart from Tory voters in these seats they keep losing.
  • So, this storm. Right bastard, isn't it?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,048

    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
    fingerprints should be sufficient

    About 20 years ago I was pulled over by the police late at night on the motorway (they didn't give me a reason, even though I asked). One checked the car over with a torch, while the other asked for my driving licence, which I didn't have. So they asked me if I had a bank card, which I did, he took it, spoke to someone on the radio, seemed to get some sort of corfirnation, and then sent me on my way. The whole thing was a little weird, but what freaked me out more than anything was the fact that they seemed to be able to confirm my ID from my bank card. Nowadays that wouldn't surprise me, but back then, it seemed a bit Big Brother. It still is a bit Big Brother, but it's sadly the world we live in now. Very little is secret and we can all be tracked very easily (except for covid, apparently)

    As to why they stopped me, I never found out.
    It was probably the shotguns in the back seat

    😀
    😂 Actually two small children saying "are we there yet?" which were far more terrifying
    The other half suggested that an old, arge but very powerful car being driven late at night was a red flag. Who knows? They were probably bored and wanted to harass someone
    Could have been playing Motorway Snooker

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/422651.stm
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,258
    HYUFD said:

    @SophyRidgeSky
    A few messages I've received from Conservative MPs in response to the by elections:

    "The problem with the PM is while he may be a first rate academic he is a fifth rate politician. He does not connect, he has the leadership qualities of an amoeba."
    https://x.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/1715445358887645595?s=20

    Maybe Tory members made the right decision in choosing Truss over Sunak.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,170
    edited October 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Serious question. Is the drought over in southern England?

    It's certainly easier. For example, reservoirs in South West Water's area are fuller than they were in January.

    https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/environment/water-resources/reservoir-levels

    It depends somewhat on how much of this rain ends up in the reservoirs and how much simply flows straight out of the area.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,347
    nico679 said:

    The Tories according to the DT hope to get an election boost by giving higher earners a tax cut . Apparently polls show its popular with Tory voters whilst everyone else effectively is told to go and fxck themselves !

    Well as the Tories aren't even winning most high earners at the moment and have next to no chance of winning most of the rest it is worth a shot
  • viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
    fingerprints should be sufficient

    About 20 years ago I was pulled over by the police late at night on the motorway (they didn't give me a reason, even though I asked). One checked the car over with a torch, while the other asked for my driving licence, which I didn't have. So they asked me if I had a bank card, which I did, he took it, spoke to someone on the radio, seemed to get some sort of corfirnation, and then sent me on my way. The whole thing was a little weird, but what freaked me out more than anything was the fact that they seemed to be able to confirm my ID from my bank card. Nowadays that wouldn't surprise me, but back then, it seemed a bit Big Brother. It still is a bit Big Brother, but it's sadly the world we live in now. Very little is secret and we can all be tracked very easily (except for covid, apparently)

    As to why they stopped me, I never found out.
    It was probably the shotguns in the back seat

    😀
    😂 Actually two small children saying "are we there yet?" which were far more terrifying
    The other half suggested that an old, arge but very powerful car being driven late at night was a red flag. Who knows? They were probably bored and wanted to harass someone
    What colour was the car? Was it in the time where they used to play Car Snooker?
    Hahaha that's a possibility, I guess.

    I think where I was coming from is that we don't need ID cards, they can already find out who we are from our bank, our phone, our driving licence etc. However I'm sure the police would *love* us to have to carry ID cards because they are lazy and it will make their job easier
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,347

    nico679 said:

    The Tories according to the DT hope to get an election boost by giving higher earners a tax cut . Apparently polls show its popular with Tory voters whilst everyone else effectively is told to go and fxck themselves !

    Rev HY suggested the same earlier. Apparently Tory voters do not send their kids to school, use the NHS, get their bins collected etc etc so do not worry that everything is broken.

    Well, apart from Tory voters in these seats they keep losing.
    Some do but their kids go to private school not the local comp and they have private health insurance and rarely use the NHS
  • eekeek Posts: 28,084
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Experienced something like that once. All trains out from Kings Cross were cancelled for some reason, so everyone piled across the city to another, then, at peak commuter time in August, stood like literal sardines on the world's slowest trains to get out, as hundreds who normally caught those trains stood on platforms glaring at those of us inside.

    Ghastly.
    Last time we got to King’s Cross to discover all trains were cancelled I was on the WCML heading to Manchester sat at the only unbooked table within 30 minutes.

    Being polite to people works wonders if you combine that with running quickly…

    It did mean that a 2.5 hour journey took 5 hours but the refund meant it was completely free.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    HYUFD said:

    @SophyRidgeSky
    A few messages I've received from Conservative MPs in response to the by elections:

    "The problem with the PM is while he may be a first rate academic he is a fifth rate politician. He does not connect, he has the leadership qualities of an amoeba."
    https://x.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/1715445358887645595?s=20

    He's ubiquitous and enduring?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,347
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    @SophyRidgeSky
    A few messages I've received from Conservative MPs in response to the by elections:

    "The problem with the PM is while he may be a first rate academic he is a fifth rate politician. He does not connect, he has the leadership qualities of an amoeba."
    https://x.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/1715445358887645595?s=20

    Maybe Tory members made the right decision in choosing Truss over Sunak.
    Truss was both a fifth rate academic and fifth rate politician.

    Boris was lazier than Rishi but he was a better campaigner and politician
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,048

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
    fingerprints should be sufficient

    About 20 years ago I was pulled over by the police late at night on the motorway (they didn't give me a reason, even though I asked). One checked the car over with a torch, while the other asked for my driving licence, which I didn't have. So they asked me if I had a bank card, which I did, he took it, spoke to someone on the radio, seemed to get some sort of corfirnation, and then sent me on my way. The whole thing was a little weird, but what freaked me out more than anything was the fact that they seemed to be able to confirm my ID from my bank card. Nowadays that wouldn't surprise me, but back then, it seemed a bit Big Brother. It still is a bit Big Brother, but it's sadly the world we live in now. Very little is secret and we can all be tracked very easily (except for covid, apparently)

    As to why they stopped me, I never found out.
    It was probably the shotguns in the back seat

    😀
    😂 Actually two small children saying "are we there yet?" which were far more terrifying
    The other half suggested that an old, arge but very powerful car being driven late at night was a red flag. Who knows? They were probably bored and wanted to harass someone
    What colour was the car? Was it in the time where they used to play Car Snooker?
    Hahaha that's a possibility, I guess.

    I think where I was coming from is that we don't need ID cards, they can already find out who we are from our bank, our phone, our driving licence etc. However I'm sure the police would *love* us to have to carry ID cards because they are lazy and it will make their job easier
    I'm guessing they would have checked the name on your bank card with the name on the insurance for your car, and if it matched, well no problem.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,595
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    You’re demonstrating your inability to think outside the box there, rather embarrassingly.

    There is no need to for Starmer to be especially fiscally constrained. He could raise plenty more by:
    - extending NI to all earnings (or replacing NI with ICT)
    - increasing taxes on the highest earners
    - introducing a land value tax and/or wealth tax

    Whether Starmer is any better at thinking outside the box than you remains to be seen.
    From memory a wealth tax has been ruled out - which is a pity because it would allow council tax to be replaced or at leat replaced by something that reflected current prices.
    Yeah, I’m hoping Starmer takes one look at the books and says ‘Awful finances, rich are going to have to pay, I’m afraid that promise I made about wealth taxes will have to wait a bit’ or similar.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,170
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    @SophyRidgeSky
    A few messages I've received from Conservative MPs in response to the by elections:

    "The problem with the PM is while he may be a first rate academic he is a fifth rate politician. He does not connect, he has the leadership qualities of an amoeba."
    https://x.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/1715445358887645595?s=20

    Maybe Tory members made the right decision in choosing Truss over Sunak.
    Truss was both a fifth rate academic and fifth rate politician.

    Boris was lazier than Rishi but he was a better campaigner and politician
    That's unkind.

    To fifth rate academics and fifth rate politicians.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,551
    boulay said:

    DavidL said:

    NZ making this look a very easy game. This is not going to be close.

    Why doesn't England do it's own version of the haka . . . by painting themselves blue and cavorting under burnt sacrifice, say lowest-scoring player?
    Or just a bit of Morris dancing. Nothing like hanky waving, gently tapping small sticks together, and jingling bells on socks to strike sheer terror into the hearts of even the most powerful of foes.
    Or the team just doing Kate Bush’s dance from the Wuthering Heights video. The opposition’s brains would be scrambled. Joe Marler channeling his inner heathcliff.
    England could just have the captain declaim the St Crispin’s Day speech from Henry V ?
    Our own centuries old pre-battle cultural tradition.

    The team would need a vocal coach, though.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,180

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    You’re demonstrating your inability to think outside the box there, rather embarrassingly.

    There is no need to for Starmer to be especially fiscally constrained. He could raise plenty more by:
    - extending NI to all earnings (or replacing NI with ICT)
    - increasing taxes on the highest earners
    - introducing a land value tax and/or wealth tax

    Whether Starmer is any better at thinking outside the box than you remains to be seen.
    He could impose some of these. The only one that isn't almost certainly going to be vastly more trouble than it's worth is extending NI to everyone although that's entirely the wrong way round to go about it - it would be far better to abolish NI and increase income tax to match.

    LVT isn't necessarily a bad idea, but you're going to have to ditch council tax and business rates as you introduce it, and then fix everything that breaks.

    The highest earners are already taxed at rates the wrong side of the laffer curve. Increasing the exodus of doctors to Australia and software engineers to the US isn't going to solve any problems domestically. Same goes if you try hitting people with wealth taxes - you'll raise a bit, but either the people or the wealth will gradually dissappear, leaving the country poorer.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    @SophyRidgeSky
    A few messages I've received from Conservative MPs in response to the by elections:

    "The problem with the PM is while he may be a first rate academic he is a fifth rate politician. He does not connect, he has the leadership qualities of an amoeba."
    https://x.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/1715445358887645595?s=20

    Maybe Tory members made the right decision in choosing Truss over Sunak.
    Truss was both a fifth rate academic and fifth rate politician.

    Boris was lazier than Rishi but he was a better campaigner and politician
    That's unkind.

    To fifth rate academics and fifth rate politicians.
    Fifth rate academic seems like a misplaced comparison for a politician, since my understanding was those are the academics who generally rise to run departments and universities.
  • CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    He won't do either 1 or 2 as the Labour left wouldn't let him (and probably more than 100 would vote against) so he could only get them through with Tory votes. In terms of 2 the most he would do is have a more contributory element.

    Liberals would oppose 3 and 4 if fully elected risks a Conservative upper house mid term
    You would note that we are talking about NHS and welfare state reform under a Labour Government because 13 years and 4 different Tory Governments have been utterly unable to fix anything...
    Given that Labour doesn't even have the balls to include social care in its manifesto - reform of which would do more to help the NHS and council finances than any other single measure - you'd have to be heroically hopeful to expect NHS or welfare reform, let alone both.
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    Concrete over the Green Belt.

    In all seriousness I'm sure ID cards will pop back up. I'm not one for conspiracies, but that one seems to be a perennial idea that floats out of Whitehall every few years.
    Does anyone care about ID cards anymore, when we can all be so easily identified in multipke ways: CCTV survellaince, photo ID technology, smart phones however you like?

    I used to be fiercely anti ID cards, but now I am increasingly Meh. I don't like them, but technology makes them a lot less objectionable. And they might help stem illegal migration, abuse of the NHS etc. I can see Starmer doing it
    What a stupid response. Technology makes ID cards - and the database that goes with it - very much worse. Think about it: governments which thought an IT project like Horizon (or any of the many other failed government IT projects over the years) a good idea trying to implement ID cards.

    To be any use you will have to carry with them all the time thus giving our wonderful police (heavy sarcasm alert) yet another opportunity to harass and boss us around, especially coupled with Patel's Protest Act which Labour won't repeal.

    Yes - I can see Starmer going for it because this sort of authoritarian nonsense is in his and Labour's DNA. Still makes it a stupid and dangerous idea.
    Sorry but that isn't true - my go to story for ID cards is that it allows any employee to quickly see if John Smith has the right to work in the UK..

    Now that isn't a problem for many of us on here because the go to approach is check the passport a person has but in poor area where passports aren't so common it's incredibly hard for many people to prove they have the right to work in the UK..
    If ID cards are brought in I guarantee you that the authorities will require them to be carried at all times. The police for one will agitate for this as they will claim it will make life easier for them.


    That'll be a particular nuisance for those on the board who have forsaken their wallets.
    Microchips for them.
    fingerprints should be sufficient

    About 20 years ago I was pulled over by the police late at night on the motorway (they didn't give me a reason, even though I asked). One checked the car over with a torch, while the other asked for my driving licence, which I didn't have. So they asked me if I had a bank card, which I did, he took it, spoke to someone on the radio, seemed to get some sort of corfirnation, and then sent me on my way. The whole thing was a little weird, but what freaked me out more than anything was the fact that they seemed to be able to confirm my ID from my bank card. Nowadays that wouldn't surprise me, but back then, it seemed a bit Big Brother. It still is a bit Big Brother, but it's sadly the world we live in now. Very little is secret and we can all be tracked very easily (except for covid, apparently)

    As to why they stopped me, I never found out.
    It was probably the shotguns in the back seat

    😀
    😂 Actually two small children saying "are we there yet?" which were far more terrifying
    The other half suggested that an old, arge but very powerful car being driven late at night was a red flag. Who knows? They were probably bored and wanted to harass someone
    What colour was the car? Was it in the time where they used to play Car Snooker?
    Hahaha that's a possibility, I guess.

    I think where I was coming from is that we don't need ID cards, they can already find out who we are from our bank, our phone, our driving licence etc. However I'm sure the police would *love* us to have to carry ID cards because they are lazy and it will make their job easier
    I'm guessing they would have checked the name on your bank card with the name on the insurance for your car, and if it matched, well no problem.
    Quite. Or with the DVLA for the keeper of the car. 20 years ago. Why do we need ID cards?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,603

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Hoping the second semi is a bit closer than the first…

    This is pretty dreadful as a competiton. It's like one of the worst of the pool games. Really not good for rugby

    The draw was a disgrace

    The two semi finals have already been played: SA v France, NZ v Ireland
    Quite why they thought that France couldn’t organise the staging with a draw say six months out - like the bigger Football World Cup, I have no idea.
    The draw always happens a couple of years in advance. There was nothing new about it this time. It’s a flaw but not a new flaw at this RWC.
    There might have been complaints about the seeding when England failed to make it out of their group in 2015 - having been beaten by Wales and Australia - but I don't remember any.
    Normally it wouldn't be a problem. There's basically nine top tier teams chasing 8 places - the 6 nations minus Italy plus Aus, NZ, Wal and Arg. The main bone of contention is who gets put in the group with three of those.
    Sometimes one of the fringe-top-tier teams (Fiji, Japan) upsets the apple cart.
    Even so, no draw goes as far as considering who plays who in the group stages. It was just a freakish result that a) the top 4in rugby pulled so far ahead of everyone else in the last 18 months, and b) they all ended up in the same half of the draw.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,170
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    @SophyRidgeSky
    A few messages I've received from Conservative MPs in response to the by elections:

    "The problem with the PM is while he may be a first rate academic he is a fifth rate politician. He does not connect, he has the leadership qualities of an amoeba."
    https://x.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/1715445358887645595?s=20

    Maybe Tory members made the right decision in choosing Truss over Sunak.
    Truss was both a fifth rate academic and fifth rate politician.

    Boris was lazier than Rishi but he was a better campaigner and politician
    That's unkind.

    To fifth rate academics and fifth rate politicians.
    Fifth rate academic seems like a misplaced comparison for a politician, since my understanding was those are the academics who generally rise to run departments and universities.
    Ah, you have met Robert Pearce?

    Although Mark Drakeford would fit the bill too...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,347
    edited October 2023

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    You’re demonstrating your inability to think outside the box there, rather embarrassingly.

    There is no need to for Starmer to be especially fiscally constrained. He could raise plenty more by:
    - extending NI to all earnings (or replacing NI with ICT)
    - increasing taxes on the highest earners
    - introducing a land value tax and/or wealth tax

    Whether Starmer is any better at thinking outside the box than you remains to be seen.
    From memory a wealth tax has been ruled out - which is a pity because it would allow council tax to be replaced or at leat replaced by something that reflected current prices.
    Yeah, I’m hoping Starmer takes one look at the books and says ‘Awful finances, rich are going to have to pay, I’m afraid that promise I made about wealth taxes will have to wait a bit’ or similar.
    If he wants to lose Kensington and Chelsea and Surrey, Brentwood and Sevenoaks and ensure a near wipe out
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,446
    eek said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Experienced something like that once. All trains out from Kings Cross were cancelled for some reason, so everyone piled across the city to another, then, at peak commuter time in August, stood like literal sardines on the world's slowest trains to get out, as hundreds who normally caught those trains stood on platforms glaring at those of us inside.

    Ghastly.
    Last time we got to King’s Cross to discover all trains were cancelled I was on the WCML heading to Manchester sat at the only unbooked table within 30 minutes.

    Being polite to people works wonders if you combine that with running quickly…

    It did mean that a 2.5 hour journey took 5 hours but the refund meant it was completely free.
    Why the f are these people trying to travel today? The storm was amber and red warned by Met for days beforehand.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,446
    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Serious question. Is the drought over in southern England?

    It's certainly easier. For example, reservoirs in South West Water's area are fuller than they were in January.

    https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/environment/water-resources/reservoir-levels

    It depends somewhat on how much of this rain ends up in the reservoirs and how much simply flows straight out of the area.
    There aren't enough reservoirs in se england iirc. Doesn't matter how full.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,212
    Apologies for my poor language . Unfortunately talking about the Tories causes my swear filter to meltdown !
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,446
    nico679 said:

    The Tories according to the DT hope to get an election boost by giving higher earners a tax cut . Apparently polls show its popular with Tory voters whilst everyone else effectively is told to go and fxck themselves !

    Tice: Reform UK will stand in every seat – and make sure the Tories lose

    Telegraph
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,595
    theProle said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    You’re demonstrating your inability to think outside the box there, rather embarrassingly.

    There is no need to for Starmer to be especially fiscally constrained. He could raise plenty more by:
    - extending NI to all earnings (or replacing NI with ICT)
    - increasing taxes on the highest earners
    - introducing a land value tax and/or wealth tax

    Whether Starmer is any better at thinking outside the box than you remains to be seen.
    He could impose some of these. The only one that isn't almost certainly going to be vastly more trouble than it's worth is extending NI to everyone although that's entirely the wrong way round to go about it - it would be far better to abolish NI and increase income tax to match.

    LVT isn't necessarily a bad idea, but you're going to have to ditch council tax and business rates as you introduce it, and then fix everything that breaks.

    The highest earners are already taxed at rates the wrong side of the laffer curve. Increasing the exodus of doctors to Australia and software engineers to the US isn't going to solve any problems domestically. Same goes if you try hitting people with wealth taxes - you'll raise a bit, but either the people or the wealth will gradually dissappear, leaving the country poorer.
    Yes, as I said replace NI with ICT. Do it gradually, 2% a year over 6 years.

    Wtf is the ‘wrong side of the Laffer curve? Please show me your workings including the formula used to plot said curve and the extent to which we poor wealthy sods are the wrong side of it. Thank you.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,446

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    You’re demonstrating your inability to think outside the box there, rather embarrassingly.

    There is no need to for Starmer to be especially fiscally constrained. He could raise plenty more by:
    - extending NI to all earnings (or replacing NI with ICT)
    - increasing taxes on the highest earners
    - introducing a land value tax and/or wealth tax

    Whether Starmer is any better at thinking outside the box than you remains to be seen.
    From memory a wealth tax has been ruled out - which is a pity because it would allow council tax to be replaced or at leat replaced by something that reflected current prices.
    Yeah, I’m hoping Starmer takes one look at the books and says ‘Awful finances, rich are going to have to pay, I’m afraid that promise I made about wealth taxes will have to wait a bit’ or similar.
    Item 5 on @Leon list should be 'sort out the planning system'. It would help 1 for a start based on local experience in my woods. Streeting wants to roll hospital type services out to the GPs and local health clinics. But my local GP wanted to build a new practice with exactly that enhanced role and the bloody councillors blocked it because it would involve a new build.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,595
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    You’re demonstrating your inability to think outside the box there, rather embarrassingly.

    There is no need to for Starmer to be especially fiscally constrained. He could raise plenty more by:
    - extending NI to all earnings (or replacing NI with ICT)
    - increasing taxes on the highest earners
    - introducing a land value tax and/or wealth tax

    Whether Starmer is any better at thinking outside the box than you remains to be seen.
    From memory a wealth tax has been ruled out - which is a pity because it would allow council tax to be replaced or at leat replaced by something that reflected current prices.
    Yeah, I’m hoping Starmer takes one look at the books and says ‘Awful finances, rich are going to have to pay, I’m afraid that promise I made about wealth taxes will have to wait a bit’ or similar.
    If he wants to lose Kensington and Chelsea and Surrey, Brentwood and Sevenoaks and ensure a near wipe out
    How many Labour MPs would you expect ‘ Kensington and Chelsea and Surrey, Brentwood and Sevenoaks’ to return if Starmer doesn’t introduce a wealth tax?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,446
    Voters in seven swing states are feeling the pain of rising prices for household essentials, according to a Bloomberg News and Morning Consult poll that points to trouble for President Joe Biden’s effort to make the economy a centerpiece of his bid for a second term.

    Three in four swing-state respondents said that prices have increased in the past month, in line with consumer price data showing that inflation rose 0.4% in September from the previous month. Prices are up 3.7% over the past year, though that’s less than half the pace of the pandemic-era highs.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-20/inflation-economy-lead-us-voters-to-trust-trump-more-than-biden-poll?leadSource=reddit_wall
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,277
    How is Rishi a “first rate academic”?
    He is very good at maths. That’s it.

    There’s no evidence of any intellectual curiosity at all beyond the limit of his own spreadsheet.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,347
    edited October 2023

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    You’re demonstrating your inability to think outside the box there, rather embarrassingly.

    There is no need to for Starmer to be especially fiscally constrained. He could raise plenty more by:
    - extending NI to all earnings (or replacing NI with ICT)
    - increasing taxes on the highest earners
    - introducing a land value tax and/or wealth tax

    Whether Starmer is any better at thinking outside the box than you remains to be seen.
    From memory a wealth tax has been ruled out - which is a pity because it would allow council tax to be replaced or at leat replaced by something that reflected current prices.
    Yeah, I’m hoping Starmer takes one look at the books and says ‘Awful finances, rich are going to have to pay, I’m afraid that promise I made about wealth taxes will have to wait a bit’ or similar.
    If he wants to lose Kensington and Chelsea and Surrey, Brentwood and Sevenoaks and ensure a near wipe out
    How many Labour MPs would you expect ‘ Kensington and Chelsea and Fulham, Surrey, Beaconsfield, Brentwood and Sevenoaks’ to return if Starmer doesn’t introduce a wealth tax?
    They could go LD, they could even go RefUK given Tice's low tax agenda.

    The first 2 are also Labour targets
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    I think we need a new thread on what amazing/revolutionary things a Starmer government might do if he gets 100+ seat majority and almost guaranteed two terms

    Coz it is looking quite possible

    Given the fiscal restraints surely the big things are

    1 real reform of the NHS
    2 making the welfare state contributory
    3 ID cards?
    4 turn the House of Lords into a federal senate

    What else?

    You’re demonstrating your inability to think outside the box there, rather embarrassingly.

    There is no need to for Starmer to be especially fiscally constrained. He could raise plenty more by:
    - extending NI to all earnings (or replacing NI with ICT)
    - increasing taxes on the highest earners
    - introducing a land value tax and/or wealth tax

    Whether Starmer is any better at thinking outside the box than you remains to be seen.
    From memory a wealth tax has been ruled out - which is a pity because it would allow council tax to be replaced or at leat replaced by something that reflected current prices.
    Yeah, I’m hoping Starmer takes one look at the books and says ‘Awful finances, rich are going to have to pay, I’m afraid that promise I made about wealth taxes will have to wait a bit’ or similar.
    If he wants to lose Kensington and Chelsea and Surrey, Brentwood and Sevenoaks and ensure a near wipe out
    How many Labour MPs would you expect ‘ Kensington and Chelsea and Fulham, Surrey, Beaconsfield, Brentwood and Sevenoaks’ to return if Starmer doesn’t introduce a wealth tax?
    They could go LD, they could even go RefUK given Tice's low tax agenda.

    The first 2 are also Labour targets
    They won't go ReFUK. Rich people know they can't vote for crypto-fascists. But people in hartlepools etc? They will. Which is why Labour will sweep the red wall.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,446
    Ken Thomas
    @KThomasDC
    ·
    8h
    Planning is underway for a Dean Phillips presidential launch in Concord, N.H., on Friday Oct. 27, per people familiar with the plans. Phillips has not yet made a final decision to challenge Biden in the Democratic primaries, I'm told.

    https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln



    Rep. Dean Phillips has begun signaling to fellow House members that he plans to launch a challenge to President Joe Biden.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/19/dean-phillips-biden-minnesota-democrat-00122642
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