Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

Is Biden going to stand again? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,693
edited October 2023 in General
imageIs Biden going to stand again? – politicalbetting.com

Normally incumbent Presidents don’t face a serious challenge when they seek re-election but next year things could be very different because Biden is so old.

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • Options
    It has taken me a while to come to this conclusion because he has been a decent president.
    But...

    He's too old.

    If he runs Trump wins because sufficient indie voters will hesitate enough over voting for Harris to be POTUS in a year or two.

  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    Alwyn Turner
    @AlwynTurner
    ·
    9h
    In 2015 readers of Prospect magazine voted Russell Brand the fourth most significant thinker in the world, behind Thomas Piketty, Yanis Varoufakis and Naomi Klein.

    The readers of Prospect were correct to put Brand in that company.
    I reckon there will be some people trying to black hole all their praise for revolutionary thinker Brand, to go with similar praise they had for the likes of Assange & Snowdon, before without missing a beat tweaking 1000s of times about Russian interference in elections led to Brexit / Trump.
    Remember when Ed Miliband counted him before the 2015 election.
    Team Miliband genuinely thought it could really swing the GE. But then we saw the quality of their polling post GE & they were totally deluded in what was happening on the ground.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,230
    I have a medium sized bet at 3-1 on Biden to be next president which I would like to trade out early, so he'd better run.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    Biden has already made clear he will stand again, though he already faces a primary challenge from RFK Jr and may also face one from California governor Gavin Newsom.

    His fortunes may depend less on his age than whether or not Trump is convicted next year, he likely wins a primary contest with the Democrat establishment behind him
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Biden has already made clear he will stand again, though he already faces a primary challenge from RFK Jr and may also face one from California governor Gavin Newsom.

    His fortunes may depend less on his age than whether or not Trump is convicted next year, he likely wins a primary contest with the Democrat establishment behind him

    RJK surely isn't a serious candidate.
  • Options
    The Guardian 2023: "Now we’ll see how many bought Brand’s anti-‘mainstream media’ shtick"

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/17/russell-brand-reaction-metoo-mainstream-media

    The Guardian 2013: Guardian columnist Russell Brand sits next to editor Alan Rusbridger at staff meeting

    image
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2023

    The Guardian 2023: "Now we’ll see how many bought Brand’s anti-‘mainstream media’ shtick"

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/17/russell-brand-reaction-metoo-mainstream-media

    The Guardian 2013: Guardian columnist Russell Brand sits next to editor Alan Rusbridger at staff meeting

    image

    Guardian has quite a track record of hitching their wagon to some questionable characters.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,777
    edited September 2023
    I can remember when complaining about Russell Brand's antics would get you dubbed as a boring old fart, such as his and Jonathan Ross's "prank" on Andrew Sach's granddaughter. That was when he was a big lefty.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    I can remember when complaining about Russell Brand's antics would get you dubbed as a boring old fart, such as his and Jonathan Ross's "prank" on Andrew Sach's granddaughter. That was when he was a big lefty.

    It isn't very long since some were trying to defend a news presenter who was "grooming" (by the definition of grooming assigned to Brands behaviour) young vulnerable men....all the not illegal spin.

    Its the least surprising scandal ever....man is self confessed drug & sex addict, has slept with 100s, possibly 1000s of women, are we supposed to be shocked he is as sleazy as hell and behaved appalling (i wouldn't be surprised he he relapsed in drugs at times, some of the stories sound like he was out of it).

    Other than the alleged rape, all other stories are exactly what everybody knew or guessed, yet the entertainment industry yet again turns a blind eye / excuse the talent behaviour.
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,776
    edited September 2023

    The Guardian 2023: "Now we’ll see how many bought Brand’s anti-‘mainstream media’ shtick"

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/17/russell-brand-reaction-metoo-mainstream-media

    The Guardian 2013: Guardian columnist Russell Brand sits next to editor Alan Rusbridger at staff meeting

    image

    Guardian has quite a track record of hitching their wagon to some questionable characters.
    Well let's not forget how a certain Murdoch paper described him in 2008:

    https://archive.ph/qZ4Hr/again?url=http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/article2078096.ece

    "RUSSELL BRAND scooped Shagger Of The Year for the third consecutive year.
    He was “too busy” to pick it up but the gong is still renamed The Russell Brand Shagger Of The Year Award.
    Who’d have thought Russ agreed with the festive phrase, “It’s better to give than to receive . . .
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    edited September 2023

    It has taken me a while to come to this conclusion because he has been a decent president.
    But...

    He's too old.

    If he runs Trump wins because sufficient indie voters will hesitate enough over voting for Harris to be POTUS in a year or two.

    Whether Biden or Harris or likely any other Democratic candidate as nominee wins depends more on whether Trump is convicted or not next year, turning off independents, than who that candidate is
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,516
    Kirkland 4th (3)

    The two earlier pictures I posted from Kirkland's 4th of July parade showed groups of refugees and -- I believe -- their descendants. This one shows a group hoping to save people from being permanent refugees.



    They received considerable applause, more than that given to any other group I saw in the parade.

    Fun fact: A few years ago a group came down from Canada to join in the celebration. I thought that was sporting of them.

    (Reminder: For decades, the US took in more refugees than all other nations combined. If many on the left in Europe, and elsewhere, have given the US much credit for that, I missed it.)
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    And that was the BBC under a Labour government?

    What is it in the air about making up history to motivate right-wing paranoia? Last night we had the assertion that Daniel Patrick Moynihan was victimised by the Democrats for his 1960s politics. In fact he went on to win 4 terms as a Democrat US Senator.
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,516
    "Daniel Patrick Moynihan was a liberal who wasn’t above challenging orthodoxy, for which he occasionally found himself in trouble. His 1965 report on the decline of the black family earned him the enmity of a generation of civil rights activists. They accused him of “victim-blaming.” His 1993 American Scholar article, “Defining Deviancy Down,” which argued that American communities had come to regard formerly aberrant behavior as normal, brought angry rejoinders from fellow New York Democrats like David Dinkins and Charles Rangel."
    source: https://www.city-journal.org/article/the-left-needs-a-moynihan-moment

    There's more.

    (Simple point, but it may have been missed: What he said in such pieces was popular with many Democratic voters.)
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    Any contender Democrat will come against some establishment pressure for dissent - albeit there are signs that some establishment figures including donors are open to Mike's arguments. Weighed against that negative, there is a great opportunity to (a) be the next-most popular contender, (b) to have been "right" about the errors of either second-term Bidenomics or failing to beat Trump with Biden, and (c) other reasons to be in the contest perhaps better not discussed in connection to betting.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Andy_JS said:

    I can remember when complaining about Russell Brand's antics would get you dubbed as a boring old fart, such as his and Jonathan Ross's "prank" on Andrew Sach's granddaughter. That was when he was a big lefty.

    By whom ?

    I remember his being regarded as an utter dick by most people at the time.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    Put another way I think this could be a Reagan '76 moment for some brave challenger to Biden, but they would have to be ready to burn the current team, so most likely someone on the centrist wing. Eric Adams would be good if his 90s political record weren't so scuffed. It really should be Buttigieg!
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,502
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I can remember when complaining about Russell Brand's antics would get you dubbed as a boring old fart, such as his and Jonathan Ross's "prank" on Andrew Sach's granddaughter. That was when he was a big lefty.

    By whom ?

    I remember his being regarded as an utter dick by most people at the time.
    Search PB comments of the time….
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,012

    It has taken me a while to come to this conclusion because he has been a decent president.
    But...

    He's too old.

    If he runs Trump wins because sufficient indie voters will hesitate enough over voting for Harris to be POTUS in a year or two.

    It's not just his age, as in the number, but it's also that appears and acts even older than that.

    I recently watched that CNN interview where he made up a load of fucking bollocks about Obama giving him money so he wouldn't have to sell his house. That was only seven years ago and the decline since then is quite marked.

    The opposing argument is that there does not appear to be anybody with the financial and political heft to challenge him and he isn't going to go voluntarily. So unless he drops dead, which admittedly doesn't look impossible, it's JRB vs DJT. Abe Simpson vs Eric Cartman. This is how empires die.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I can remember when complaining about Russell Brand's antics would get you dubbed as a boring old fart, such as his and Jonathan Ross's "prank" on Andrew Sach's granddaughter. That was when he was a big lefty.

    By whom ?

    I remember his being regarded as an utter dick by most people at the time.
    Search PB comments of the time….
    Can't really be arsed.
    Is it true that those defending him at the time were doing so fit his politics ? (Roger perhaps ?)

    The Guardian didn't at the time, both reporting it is a straightforward manner, and publishing critical opinion pieces.

    I note Brand used the same political whataboutery he's engaging in now, as a pathetic form of self justification.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2008/oct/27/russell-brand-andrew-sachs
    ..."But sometimes you mustn't swear on someone's answerphone and that is why I would like to apologise personally."
    He continued: "I would like to remind the Daily Mail [sic] that while it is a bit bad to leave a swearword on Andrew Sachs' answerphone, what's worse - leaving a swearword on Andrew Sachs' answerphone or tacitly supporting Adolf Hitler when he took charge of the Third Reich?"..
  • Options
    The US has mislaid an F-35. Please call them if you’ve seen it:

    We’re working with @MCASBeaufortSC to locate an F-35 that was involved in a mishap this afternoon. The pilot ejected safely. If you have any information that may help our recovery teams locate the F-35, please call the Base Defense Operations Center at 843-963-3600.

    https://x.com/teamcharleston/status/1703523385475534968
  • Options
    Lots of lightning and heavy rain in London now!
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,898

    The US has mislaid an F-35. Please call them if you’ve seen it:

    We’re working with @MCASBeaufortSC to locate an F-35 that was involved in a mishap this afternoon. The pilot ejected safely. If you have any information that may help our recovery teams locate the F-35, please call the Base Defense Operations Center at 843-963-3600.

    https://x.com/teamcharleston/status/1703523385475534968

    Have they tried under the couch? You'll have to lift the cushions up. I lost a whole F14 air wing down there once. :)
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,777

    Lots of lightning and heavy rain in London now!

    Was in London yesterday and somehow managed to miss the rain.
  • Options

    rcs1000 said:

    Alwyn Turner
    @AlwynTurner
    ·
    9h
    In 2015 readers of Prospect magazine voted Russell Brand the fourth most significant thinker in the world, behind Thomas Piketty, Yanis Varoufakis and Naomi Klein.

    The readers of Prospect were correct to put Brand in that company.
    I reckon there will be some people trying to black hole all their praise for revolutionary thinker Brand, to go with similar praise they had for the likes of Assange & Snowdon, before without missing a beat tweaking 1000s of times about Russian interference in elections led to Brexit / Trump.
    Remember when Ed Miliband counted him before the 2015 election.
    Team Miliband genuinely thought it could really swing the GE. But then we saw the quality of their polling post GE & they were totally deluded in what was happening on the ground.
    EICIPM :lol:
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,776

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I can remember when complaining about Russell Brand's antics would get you dubbed as a boring old fart, such as his and Jonathan Ross's "prank" on Andrew Sach's granddaughter. That was when he was a big lefty.

    By whom ?

    I remember his being regarded as an utter dick by most people at the time.
    Search PB comments of the time….
    Something he shares with Boris Johnson
  • Options
    As well as a number of criminal allegations, Brand is also facing accusations that he subjected female colleagues at the BBC to lewd and humiliating behaviour. It has been suggested that complaints were made to a senior member of BBC staff but no action was taken.

    Questions for director general
    The claims have raised serious questions for BBC director general Tim Davie who was the director of audio and music when Brand was forced to resign from Radio 2.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/17/bbc-urgently-investigating-claims-over-russell-brand/
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    edited September 2023
    The travel card which works in Seoul for underground and buses also works in Busan.

    Like the electronic HiPass card* for motorway tolls, you have to pay cash at most places you can recharge it.
    Cash is going to around for quite a while in digitised S Korea.

    *You can recharge this electronically, but you need a Korean bank account.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Dura_Ace said:

    It has taken me a while to come to this conclusion because he has been a decent president.
    But...

    He's too old.

    If he runs Trump wins because sufficient indie voters will hesitate enough over voting for Harris to be POTUS in a year or two.

    It's not just his age, as in the number, but it's also that appears and acts even older than that.

    I recently watched that CNN interview where he made up a load of fucking bollocks about Obama giving him money so he wouldn't have to sell his house. That was only seven years ago and the decline since then is quite marked.

    The opposing argument is that there does not appear to be anybody with the financial and political heft to challenge him and he isn't going to go voluntarily. So unless he drops dead, which admittedly doesn't look impossible, it's JRB vs DJT. Abe Simpson vs Eric Cartman. This is how empires die.
    Or by invading Ukraine.
  • Options

    As well as a number of criminal allegations, Brand is also facing accusations that he subjected female colleagues at the BBC to lewd and humiliating behaviour. It has been suggested that complaints were made to a senior member of BBC staff but no action was taken.

    Questions for director general
    The claims have raised serious questions for BBC director general Tim Davie who was the director of audio and music when Brand was forced to resign from Radio 2.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/17/bbc-urgently-investigating-claims-over-russell-brand/

    Big lefty (lapsed) Russell Brand is going to force out Conservative BBC DG Tim Davie? That's ironic.
  • Options
    CatMan said:

    The Guardian 2023: "Now we’ll see how many bought Brand’s anti-‘mainstream media’ shtick"

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/17/russell-brand-reaction-metoo-mainstream-media

    The Guardian 2013: Guardian columnist Russell Brand sits next to editor Alan Rusbridger at staff meeting

    image

    Guardian has quite a track record of hitching their wagon to some questionable characters.
    Well let's not forget how a certain Murdoch paper described him in 2008:

    https://archive.ph/qZ4Hr/again?url=http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/article2078096.ece

    "RUSSELL BRAND scooped Shagger Of The Year for the third consecutive year.
    He was “too busy” to pick it up but the gong is still renamed The Russell Brand Shagger Of The Year Award.
    Who’d have thought Russ agreed with the festive phrase, “It’s better to give than to receive . . .
    This shows how far the zeitgeist has changed in just 15 years.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    .

    As well as a number of criminal allegations, Brand is also facing accusations that he subjected female colleagues at the BBC to lewd and humiliating behaviour. It has been suggested that complaints were made to a senior member of BBC staff but no action was taken.

    Questions for director general
    The claims have raised serious questions for BBC director general Tim Davie who was the director of audio and music when Brand was forced to resign from Radio 2.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/17/bbc-urgently-investigating-claims-over-russell-brand/

    Big lefty (lapsed) Russell Brand is going to force out Conservative BBC DG Tim Davie? That's ironic.
    The politics is this is a distraction.
    Brand appears to be the same character he was a decade and a half back. His political grift is just a business choice, not a belief.
  • Options
    Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 595
    One of my greatest enjoyments this RWC has been watching Eddie Jones. Yesterday he said that Australia led in most statistics. Apart from points, territory, posession, scrums won etc. I think they won penalties conceded and turnovers lost. How does this man have a job?.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731

    CatMan said:

    The Guardian 2023: "Now we’ll see how many bought Brand’s anti-‘mainstream media’ shtick"

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/17/russell-brand-reaction-metoo-mainstream-media

    The Guardian 2013: Guardian columnist Russell Brand sits next to editor Alan Rusbridger at staff meeting

    image

    Guardian has quite a track record of hitching their wagon to some questionable characters.
    Well let's not forget how a certain Murdoch paper described him in 2008:

    https://archive.ph/qZ4Hr/again?url=http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/article2078096.ece

    "RUSSELL BRAND scooped Shagger Of The Year for the third consecutive year.
    He was “too busy” to pick it up but the gong is still renamed The Russell Brand Shagger Of The Year Award.
    Who’d have thought Russ agreed with the festive phrase, “It’s better to give than to receive . . .
    This shows how far the zeitgeist has changed in just 15 years.
    Not much ?
    His fans still appear to be on the right.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    CatMan said:

    The Guardian 2023: "Now we’ll see how many bought Brand’s anti-‘mainstream media’ shtick"

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/17/russell-brand-reaction-metoo-mainstream-media

    The Guardian 2013: Guardian columnist Russell Brand sits next to editor Alan Rusbridger at staff meeting

    image

    Guardian has quite a track record of hitching their wagon to some questionable characters.
    Well let's not forget how a certain Murdoch paper described him in 2008:

    https://archive.ph/qZ4Hr/again?url=http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/article2078096.ece

    "RUSSELL BRAND scooped Shagger Of The Year for the third consecutive year.
    He was “too busy” to pick it up but the gong is still renamed The Russell Brand Shagger Of The Year Award.
    Who’d have thought Russ agreed with the festive phrase, “It’s better to give than to receive . . .
    This shows how far the zeitgeist has changed in just 15 years.
    Not much ?
    His fans still appear to be on the right.
    No, I meant the zeitgeist in terms of celebrating or deploring Brand's sexual exploits.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731

    Nigelb said:

    CatMan said:

    The Guardian 2023: "Now we’ll see how many bought Brand’s anti-‘mainstream media’ shtick"

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/17/russell-brand-reaction-metoo-mainstream-media

    The Guardian 2013: Guardian columnist Russell Brand sits next to editor Alan Rusbridger at staff meeting

    image

    Guardian has quite a track record of hitching their wagon to some questionable characters.
    Well let's not forget how a certain Murdoch paper described him in 2008:

    https://archive.ph/qZ4Hr/again?url=http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/article2078096.ece

    "RUSSELL BRAND scooped Shagger Of The Year for the third consecutive year.
    He was “too busy” to pick it up but the gong is still renamed The Russell Brand Shagger Of The Year Award.
    Who’d have thought Russ agreed with the festive phrase, “It’s better to give than to receive . . .
    This shows how far the zeitgeist has changed in just 15 years.
    Not much ?
    His fans still appear to be on the right.
    No, I meant the zeitgeist in terms of celebrating or deploring Brand's sexual exploits.
    MeToo started in 2006.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2023
    Nigelb said:

    .

    As well as a number of criminal allegations, Brand is also facing accusations that he subjected female colleagues at the BBC to lewd and humiliating behaviour. It has been suggested that complaints were made to a senior member of BBC staff but no action was taken.

    Questions for director general
    The claims have raised serious questions for BBC director general Tim Davie who was the director of audio and music when Brand was forced to resign from Radio 2.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/17/bbc-urgently-investigating-claims-over-russell-brand/

    Big lefty (lapsed) Russell Brand is going to force out Conservative BBC DG Tim Davie? That's ironic.
    The politics is this is a distraction.
    Brand appears to be the same character he was a decade and a half back. His political grift is just a business choice, not a belief.
    It does point to something interesting in that the media now overwhelmingly label people who espouse anti-vax, anti-big pharma, anti-MSM, belief in global elite cabal running the world as this alt-right / far-right conspiracy theorists.

    When in reality the Corbyn bros are very much of similar beliefs, have been all their life and very much of the left. Those sort of views aren't anything new, and been talking points among the fringe left forever.

    I don't think Russell Brand real politics are anything different than a lot of media luuvies i.e. not alt-right / far right. More very progressive on social issues, immigration, the environment, etc and talks a good game on being anti-billionaire, but in reality live very gilded lives and like most people do what they can to be tax efficient.

    He has realised that he can sit in his shed and do an entertaining version of "just asking questions / reading out fringe journalism" and make millions, as there are lots of people out there that don't trust the MSM.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2023
    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    The West as a whole isn't exactly overrun by top notch leadership at the moment (or among likely replacements).
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731

    Nigelb said:

    .

    As well as a number of criminal allegations, Brand is also facing accusations that he subjected female colleagues at the BBC to lewd and humiliating behaviour. It has been suggested that complaints were made to a senior member of BBC staff but no action was taken.

    Questions for director general
    The claims have raised serious questions for BBC director general Tim Davie who was the director of audio and music when Brand was forced to resign from Radio 2.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/17/bbc-urgently-investigating-claims-over-russell-brand/

    Big lefty (lapsed) Russell Brand is going to force out Conservative BBC DG Tim Davie? That's ironic.
    The politics is this is a distraction.
    Brand appears to be the same character he was a decade and a half back. His political grift is just a business choice, not a belief.
    It does point to something interesting in that the media now overwhelmingly label people who espouse anti-vax, anti-big pharma, anti-MSM, belief in global elite cabal running the world as this alt-right / far-right conspiracy theorists.

    When in reality the Corbyn bros are very much of similar beliefs, have been all their life and very much of the left. Those sort of views aren't anything new, and been talking points among the fringe left forever. ..

    Fringe, indeed.
    And it's a fair pint that the belief set is somewhat orthogonal to conventional politics.

    The difference is that it's now become the dominant strain of thought on the right in the US. And similarly in some right wing European parties.

    I sincerely hope that doesn't happen here.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    The expanding lexicon of euphemisms is quite something.

    Lauren Boebert apologizes again for ‘maybe overtly animated’ behavior at theater
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/17/lauren-boebert-apologizes-again-behavior-at-theater

    Perhaps Brand could say his behaviour 'fell short of his values'.
    If he had any.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    The cafe at the Chungnyeolsa shrine is cash only.
  • Options
    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    There are 15 members of Congress older than Joe Biden, so Americans have no problems voting for elderly candidates. Biden's disastrous Afghanistan decision was taken by President Trump. Kamala Harris is a perfectly adequate vice president on a scale set by Mike Pence, Dick Cheney, Dan Quayle and, erm, Joe Biden.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. And by lowering Biden's approval ratings from average to the worst since the war (apart from Carter) it could have handed Trump a second term. Never mind the effects on Afghani women, etc. Quite an achievement by a "very good" President ...
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    There are 15 members of Congress older than Joe Biden, so Americans have no problems voting for elderly candidates. Biden's disastrous Afghanistan decision was taken by President Trump. Kamala Harris is a perfectly adequate vice president on a scale set by Mike Pence, Dick Cheney, Dan Quayle and, erm, Joe Biden.
    None of the members of Congress have the huge day-to-day exposure that the President has, and in Congress incumbents are far more likely to win than they are in the Presidency, so I don't think that's comparing like with like. And in terms of other VPs, Harris has much lower net approval ratings at this stage (-15%) than Cheney (+33%) or Gore (+46%). Just because Biden and Pence were rubbish doesn't mean Harris is any good, and it's much more important in this case because Obama, Clinton and GWB were all young and healthy.

    On Afghanistan, previous US Presidents have often ratted on decisions made by their predecessors, and the Taliban gave him enough excuses if he'd wanted to. Biden could have too. But he'd always hated America's commitments to the Afghan government, so he made the disastrous error of judgement that, as I say, may give Trump a second term.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,130
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It has taken me a while to come to this conclusion because he has been a decent president.
    But...

    He's too old.

    If he runs Trump wins because sufficient indie voters will hesitate enough over voting for Harris to be POTUS in a year or two.

    It's not just his age, as in the number, but it's also that appears and acts even older than that.

    I recently watched that CNN interview where he made up a load of fucking bollocks about Obama giving him money so he wouldn't have to sell his house. That was only seven years ago and the decline since then is quite marked.

    The opposing argument is that there does not appear to be anybody with the financial and political heft to challenge him and he isn't going to go voluntarily. So unless he drops dead, which admittedly doesn't look impossible, it's JRB vs DJT. Abe Simpson vs Eric Cartman. This is how empires die.
    Or by invading Ukraine.
    Russia is only a wannabe Empire.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. And by lowering Biden's approval ratings from average to the worst since the war (apart from Carter) it could have handed Trump a second term. Never mind the effects on Afghani women, etc. Quite an achievement by a "very good" President ...
    No, I'd say Biden received a hospital pass from Trump, and made a pragmatic decision.

    The withdrawal could, and should have been better handled, but the decision was, IMO, inevitable.

    The point I'm making is that the US spent billons in Afghanistan on an effort which was never going to succeed.
    Ukraine is different, as the money (in reality mainly contribution from old military stocks) is being given to a country which is united in its desire for US support. And which is likely to prevail.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It has taken me a while to come to this conclusion because he has been a decent president.
    But...

    He's too old.

    If he runs Trump wins because sufficient indie voters will hesitate enough over voting for Harris to be POTUS in a year or two.

    It's not just his age, as in the number, but it's also that appears and acts even older than that.

    I recently watched that CNN interview where he made up a load of fucking bollocks about Obama giving him money so he wouldn't have to sell his house. That was only seven years ago and the decline since then is quite marked.

    The opposing argument is that there does not appear to be anybody with the financial and political heft to challenge him and he isn't going to go voluntarily. So unless he drops dead, which admittedly doesn't look impossible, it's JRB vs DJT. Abe Simpson vs Eric Cartman. This is how empires die.
    Or by invading Ukraine.
    Russia is only a wannabe Empire.
    No, it's been an empire for a very long time - even if its power is ebbing.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...
    That was far more likely the result of the west's response to Georgia and Crimea.

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,130
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It has taken me a while to come to this conclusion because he has been a decent president.
    But...

    He's too old.

    If he runs Trump wins because sufficient indie voters will hesitate enough over voting for Harris to be POTUS in a year or two.

    It's not just his age, as in the number, but it's also that appears and acts even older than that.

    I recently watched that CNN interview where he made up a load of fucking bollocks about Obama giving him money so he wouldn't have to sell his house. That was only seven years ago and the decline since then is quite marked.

    The opposing argument is that there does not appear to be anybody with the financial and political heft to challenge him and he isn't going to go voluntarily. So unless he drops dead, which admittedly doesn't look impossible, it's JRB vs DJT. Abe Simpson vs Eric Cartman. This is how empires die.
    Or by invading Ukraine.
    Russia is only a wannabe Empire.
    No, it's been an empire for a very long time - even if its power is ebbing.
    It's never been the Empire it thinks it deserves to be.

    It doresn't even cover as many time zones as modern France.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,294
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,294
    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    Spot on

    And, on the subject of Ukraine, most of you will be aware that despite being one of those dreadful Leftie types, I argued from the outset that we should have installed a No Fly Zone over Ukraine.

    You have to stand up to bullies.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,294
    edited September 2023
    Difficult to disagree with @Fishing 's assessment that Biden has been deeply mediocre.

    The Democratic President with the highest job approval rating since the Second World War is ... Bill Clinton.

    Measure taken at time of leaving office. Data from Gallup.
    https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/statistics/data/final-presidential-job-approval-ratings
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,294
    edited September 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
    I didn't - read what I wrote;
    ...and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right..

    You're entitled to your judgment, as are those you cite. But I think they are wrong.
    Afghanistan isn't clear 'cause and effect' - not least because the invasion was planned at least a year before it took place.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
    I didn't - read what I wrote;
    ...and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right..

    You're entitled to your judgment, as are those you cite. But I think they are wrong.
    Afghanistan isn't clear 'cause and effect' - not least because the invasion was planned at least a year before it took place.
    To re-iterate, we know from copious evidence that Putin expected the operation to be over in days.
    US intervention in that event would not have been military.
  • Options
    theenglishborntheenglishborn Posts: 162
    edited September 2023
    Heathener said:

    Difficult to disagree with @Fishing 's assessment that Biden has been deeply mediocre.

    The Democratic President with the highest job approval rating since the Second World War is ... Bill Clinton.

    Measure taken at time of leaving office. Data from Gallup.
    https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/statistics/data/final-presidential-job-approval-ratings

    Whilst true it I would argue dorsn't show how polarised US politics is now. Even vaguely approving of the other side is seen as being a traitor.
    Biden could be on 0 unemployment and forced Russia to leave Ukraine including Crimea and he would still have not very good ratings compared.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
    I didn't - read what I wrote;
    ...and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right..

    You're entitled to your judgment, as are those you cite. But I think they are wrong.
    Afghanistan isn't clear 'cause and effect' - not least because the invasion was planned at least a year before it took place.
    To re-iterate, we know from copious evidence that Putin expected the operation to be over in days.
    US intervention in that event would not have been military.
    Maybe Biden got confused again and warned Prussia not to invade Yugoslavia.

  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,294
    edited September 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
    I didn't - read what I wrote;
    ...and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right..

    You're entitled to your judgment, as are those you cite. But I think they are wrong.
    Afghanistan isn't clear 'cause and effect' - not least because the invasion was planned at least a year before it took place.
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I will merely point out that these experts are rather more eminent on this subject than yourself, from a wide spectrum of political and military experience.

    The essential point here, made by all these eminent people, is that whilst it may have been in Putin's planning and thinking ... it was the rushed and chaotic Afghanistan withdrawal which 'gave the massive green light' for his invasion of Ukraine. Biden sent out a clear signal at the start of his Presidency that he would cease US military policing around the world. It was Putin's golden ticket.




  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
    I didn't - read what I wrote;
    ...and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right..

    You're entitled to your judgment, as are those you cite. But I think they are wrong.
    Afghanistan isn't clear 'cause and effect' - not least because the invasion was planned at least a year before it took place.
    Yes, but until the last few months, Putin could have called the invasion off (*). The chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan was yet another signal of the west's weakness.

    That's what Putin's seen from the west's foreign policies over the last two decades; weakness. From Iraq, to Afghanistan, to Syria, to chemical weapons use in Syria, to MH17, to the 2014 invasion, to Georgia, etc, etc, the west's reaction has seen, to him, weak. And when we have responded with sanctions, for instance after Salisbury, he has also seen them as an annoyance, but weak.

    And you can bet he only gets to hear about weakness from his advisors. He won't really be hearing of western leaders talking about strengthening Ukraine's hands; he'll be told abut the quislings who say we should pull out, how Putin's correct, how it's all our fault, etc, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if he believes that the public in the west are on Russia's side, and it's only these awful politicians being run by shadows behind the Ukrainian support.

    (*) I also believe there is a time, perhaps a week or two before the invasion date, where it becomes increasingly hard to call it off.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,261
    Nigelb said:

    The expanding lexicon of euphemisms is quite something.

    Lauren Boebert apologizes again for ‘maybe overtly animated’ behavior at theater
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/17/lauren-boebert-apologizes-again-behavior-at-theater

    Perhaps Brand could say his behaviour 'fell short of his values'.
    If he had any.

    You want to compare vaping when it's not allowed with accusations of rape and sexual assault?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    The expanding lexicon of euphemisms is quite something.

    Lauren Boebert apologizes again for ‘maybe overtly animated’ behavior at theater
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/17/lauren-boebert-apologizes-again-behavior-at-theater

    Perhaps Brand could say his behaviour 'fell short of his values'.
    If he had any.

    You want to compare vaping when it's not allowed with accusations of rape and sexual assault?
    Its all to do with the integrity of the politician.

    Nigelb wants more upright candidates like Susanna Gibson

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12522931/Virginia-porn-Dem-Susanna-Gibson-seen-time-X-rated-video-husband-leaked-online-constituents-rally-her.html
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,526
    edited September 2023
    At least Biden has never posted shit like this.



    From Trump’s social media account

    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111083021216078581
  • Options
    O/T I cannot believe it is nine years to the day that the forces of righteousness & enlightenment defeated the forces of darkness & nationalism in the Indyref.

    Where does the time go?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,320
    edited September 2023

    O/T I cannot believe it is nine years to the day that the forces of righteousness & enlightenment defeated the forces of darkness & nationalism in the Indyref.

    Where does the time go?

    Although that was also the last time a Unionist organisation won a vote in Scotland.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
    I didn't - read what I wrote;
    ...and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right..

    You're entitled to your judgment, as are those you cite. But I think they are wrong.
    Afghanistan isn't clear 'cause and effect' - not least because the invasion was planned at least a year before it took place.
    To re-iterate, we know from copious evidence that Putin expected the operation to be over in days.
    US intervention in that event would not have been military.
    And it very nearly was over in days. If a few events had occurred slightly differently, then Russia would have surrounded, or taken, Kyiv. I hope Putin's tormented at night by how close it was; how near he came to victory.

    But the west's reaction was not just about stopping the invasion; it's about how we would react *after* a Russian victory. There are claims that Russia wargamed this, and decided that the sanctions would be livable with - in fact, it is claimed they budgeted for the sanctions.

    And he thought he would get only weak sanctions, not the strong sanctions he has received, because he saw the west as weak and divided. Our withdrawal from Afghanistan was another case where we showed weakness. If we had shown strength, it may have caused more doubts.
  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,290
    edited September 2023
    For some time, Michelle Obama has been 3rd favourite for the Democratic nomination behind Biden and Newsom (though Kennedy has just edged ahead of her).

    She is 5th favourite for President behind Biden, Trump, Newsom and DeSantis.

    Yet I don't think I've seen a single post on this forum that has even mentioned her.

    Do people think she is a serious possibility? The odds suggest that if Biden were to drop out she would have a very serious chance indeed.

    Also, the odds suggest that IF she were to get the nomination, she would then be odds on favourite to win the Presidency.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,320

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
    I didn't - read what I wrote;
    ...and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right..

    You're entitled to your judgment, as are those you cite. But I think they are wrong.
    Afghanistan isn't clear 'cause and effect' - not least because the invasion was planned at least a year before it took place.
    To re-iterate, we know from copious evidence that Putin expected the operation to be over in days.
    US intervention in that event would not have been military.
    And it very nearly was over in days. If a few events had occurred slightly differently, then Russia would have surrounded, or taken, Kyiv. I hope Putin's tormented at night by how close it was; how near he came to victory.

    But the west's reaction was not just about stopping the invasion; it's about how we would react *after* a Russian victory. There are claims that Russia wargamed this, and decided that the sanctions would be livable with - in fact, it is claimed they budgeted for the sanctions.

    And he thought he would get only weak sanctions, not the strong sanctions he has received, because he saw the west as weak and divided. Our withdrawal from Afghanistan was another case where we showed weakness. If we had shown strength, it may have caused more doubts.
    He was also probably correct in that. If Ukraine had been quickly overrun it's unlikely the West would have done much about a fait accompli, especially with so many politicians reliant on Russian handouts much of the economy based on cheap gas and grain.

    Russia's failure, and their behaviour, have shot that chance to pieces.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,320
    MikeL said:

    For some time, Michelle Obama has been 3rd favourite for the Democratic nomination behind Biden and Newsom (though Kennedy has just edged ahead of her).

    She is 5th favourite for President behind Biden, Trump, Newsom and DeSantis.

    Yet I don't think I've seen a single post on this forum that has even mentioned her.

    Do people think she is a serious possibility? The odds suggest that if Biden were to drop out she would have a very serious chance indeed.

    No.

    She's there because people have heard of her. No other reason.

    She also won't be running. So she has the same chance as any other American who won't be running e.g. my cousin Delaney, which is zero.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,294
    edited September 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
    I didn't - read what I wrote;
    ...and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right..

    You're entitled to your judgment, as are those you cite. But I think they are wrong.
    Afghanistan isn't clear 'cause and effect' - not least because the invasion was planned at least a year before it took place.
    To re-iterate, we know from copious evidence that Putin expected the operation to be over in days.
    US intervention in that event would not have been military.
    And it very nearly was over in days. If a few events had occurred slightly differently, then Russia would have surrounded, or taken, Kyiv. I hope Putin's tormented at night by how close it was; how near he came to victory.
    .
    I am not so sure about this.

    As you know, the main reason why I didn't think Putin would be so stupid as to invade is that I didn't rate Russian chances of success as very high.

    Back in the day when I briefly worked in east-west intelligence we were scornful about Russian might, thinking that it was somewhat exaggerated. Not out of some western ego trip but because they were overrated with inferior equipment and training.

    I'm out of date on military matters (thankfully), much more so than others like yourself and @Sandpit on this forum, but I never rated their chances of winning this as very high.

    And I still think we should have stood up to Putin from the outset with a No Fly Zone. It's the only language he speaks.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Biden trading at 1.6 on betfair for the nomination.

    To win he just has to not change his mind and not die by June 2024. Even if primaried, he would surely win.

    That looks like very good odds to me?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
    I didn't - read what I wrote;
    ...and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right..

    You're entitled to your judgment, as are those you cite. But I think they are wrong.
    Afghanistan isn't clear 'cause and effect' - not least because the invasion was planned at least a year before it took place.
    To re-iterate, we know from copious evidence that Putin expected the operation to be over in days.
    US intervention in that event would not have been military.
    And it very nearly was over in days. If a few events had occurred slightly differently, then Russia would have surrounded, or taken, Kyiv. I hope Putin's tormented at night by how close it was; how near he came to victory.

    But the west's reaction was not just about stopping the invasion; it's about how we would react *after* a Russian victory. There are claims that Russia wargamed this, and decided that the sanctions would be livable with - in fact, it is claimed they budgeted for the sanctions.

    And he thought he would get only weak sanctions, not the strong sanctions he has received, because he saw the west as weak and divided. Our withdrawal from Afghanistan was another case where we showed weakness. If we had shown strength, it may have caused more doubts.
    It could indeed have gone very differently those first few days. Thankfully a handful of countries, including the UK and the US, stepped up to assist with military aid in advance. The chaotic situation in Afghanistan almost certainly helped Putin in his decision-making at the time, thankfully the support to Ukraine has been generally well-organised and timely, although rather too much persuasion was required to get certain European countries involved.

    The sanctions are now really starting to bite Russia, and there’s some disquiet among the Moscovite upper-middle classes as they rely on grey-market imports for many Western luxuries that were previously taken for granted. Anyone with the means and ability to leave the country has done so, taking a huge amount of wealth out of the economy in the process.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    O/T I cannot believe it is nine years to the day that the forces of righteousness & enlightenment defeated the forces of darkness & nationalism in the Indyref.

    Where does the time go?

    Although that was also the last time a Unionist organisation won a vote in Scotland.
    Until next year.
  • Options
    In slightly funny news, a pilot ejected out of an F35 over South Carolina yesterday. The pilot's been located and is alive, but there is no immediate evidence that the plane crashed. The *rumours* are that it kept on flying on autopilot; and that they cannot locate it.

    It won't be, but I'd love it to be another Cornfield Bomber...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornfield_Bomber
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    The expanding lexicon of euphemisms is quite something.

    Lauren Boebert apologizes again for ‘maybe overtly animated’ behavior at theater
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/17/lauren-boebert-apologizes-again-behavior-at-theater

    Perhaps Brand could say his behaviour 'fell short of his values'.
    If he had any.

    You want to compare vaping when it's not allowed with accusations of rape and sexual assault?
    Er, no.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,313

    In slightly funny news, a pilot ejected out of an F35 over South Carolina yesterday. The pilot's been located and is alive, but there is no immediate evidence that the plane crashed. The *rumours* are that it kept on flying on autopilot; and that they cannot locate it.

    It won't be, but I'd love it to be another Cornfield Bomber...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornfield_Bomber

    If it were flying, they would know where it was. So it’s in the sea.
  • Options
    Not sure Biden could stand up, never mind stand...
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,294

    ydoethur said:

    O/T I cannot believe it is nine years to the day that the forces of righteousness & enlightenment defeated the forces of darkness & nationalism in the Indyref.

    Where does the time go?

    Although that was also the last time a Unionist organisation won a vote in Scotland.
    Until next year.
    I'm not so sure from latest polling that Scottish independence is quite as dead in the water as some believed during Nicola's downfall.

    Independence for Scotland hasn't really been predicated around a single individual since Charles Edward Stuart.

    I don't think the cause is lost.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    MikeL said:

    For some time, Michelle Obama has been 3rd favourite for the Democratic nomination behind Biden and Newsom (though Kennedy has just edged ahead of her).

    She is 5th favourite for President behind Biden, Trump, Newsom and DeSantis.

    Yet I don't think I've seen a single post on this forum that has even mentioned her.

    Do people think she is a serious possibility? The odds suggest that if Biden were to drop out she would have a very serious chance indeed.

    Also, the odds suggest that IF she were to get the nomination, she would then be odds on favourite to win the Presidency.

    She’s the lay of the century (in betting terms, of course!).

    She’s said nothing to indicate she has any interest at all in running for any elected office, let alone the top job. She’s now wealthy beyond belief, and is enjoying her life just as it is.
  • Options
    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
    I didn't - read what I wrote;
    ...and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right..

    You're entitled to your judgment, as are those you cite. But I think they are wrong.
    Afghanistan isn't clear 'cause and effect' - not least because the invasion was planned at least a year before it took place.
    To re-iterate, we know from copious evidence that Putin expected the operation to be over in days.
    US intervention in that event would not have been military.
    And it very nearly was over in days. If a few events had occurred slightly differently, then Russia would have surrounded, or taken, Kyiv. I hope Putin's tormented at night by how close it was; how near he came to victory.
    .
    I am not so sure about this.

    As you know, the main reason why I didn't think Putin would be so stupid as to invade is that I didn't rate Russian chances of success as very high.

    Back in the day when I briefly worked in east-west intelligence we were scornful about Russian might, thinking that it was somewhat exaggerated. Not out of some western ego trip but because they were overrated with inferior equipment and training.

    I'm out of date on military matters (thankfully), much more so than others like yourself and @Sandpit on this forum, but I never rated their chances of winning this as very high.

    And I still think we should have stood up to Putin from the outset with a No Fly Zone. It's the only language he speaks.
    Well, we'll thankfully never know. But they came very close to victory IMO. *If* they had assassinated Zelenskyy, and if they had secured Hostomel Airport earlier and been able to fly in more troops, I can see Ukraine folding.

    And both of those were close-run things.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    edited September 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    In my judgment, he's been a very good president.

    The simultaneously held beliefs on the right that abandoning Afghanistan was disastrous, while aiding Ukraine is a mistake, are bizarrely contradictory.
    Though they can easily be explained as sheer antipathy to a Democratic president.
    Lots of people on the right support aiding Ukraine, and think that Biden has been "a day late and a dollar short" as John Bolton puts it. I certainly agree.

    Are you saying that leaving Afghanistan was a triumph? By showing the West's weakness it could have emboldened Putin to invade. ...

    Afghanistan doesn't really figure from Ukraine's POV - and a US still embroiled there would have been far less likely to intervene in Ukraine, in my view.
    Sorry Nigel but I think you are quite wrong about this.

    The chaotic, rushed, evacuation from Afghanistan was a clear signal to Putin that Biden's America would not stand up for countries outside of NATO. He invaded Ukraine just 6 months later.

    That is certainly the view of General Tod Wolters, the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/afghanistan-debacle-played-role-in-putins-ukraine-decision-general-says

    It's also the view of historian Dr Brian Brivati

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/uk-world/3049983/putins-ukraine-invasion-given-massive-green-light-by-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-says-historian/

    Likewise it is the view of former French President François Hollande:

    “If Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, it was not due to a provocation from the Atlantic alliance […]. He understood that the global situation enabled him to go even further than he had anticipated. […] When the United States withdrew from Afghanistan, it showed signs of weakness, and Vladimir Putin interpreted it as a success for himself. Each of our withdrawals has been a new opportunity for his influence to grow. According to this dynamic, Vladimir Putin understood he could go very far if he wished so.

    https://www.jurist.org/features/2022/04/20/analysis-did-natos-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-inspire-vladimir-putin-to-invade-ukraine/
    There are certainly those who believe that - and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right.
    But I think it's largely nonsense.

    The Biden administration consistently warned Putin of consequences for at least a year running up to the invasion.
    Putin calculated - wrongly - that the 'SMO' would be done before anyone had a chance to intervene.
    The fait accompli calculation was very much based on what had happened in Crimea.
    I am not sure how you can in all seriousness make a claim that a Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, a former French President, and an eminent historian are pointing out the clear link for 'self-serving' reasons.

    I also think it's careless to dismiss such talk as 'conventional wisdom on the right.'

    It's also naive to think that just because Biden warned Putin with words that this would make the difference. Putin is someone who reacts to actions not fine talking.

    That you don't see the clear link between the chaotic American and Allied withdrawal from Afghanistan and the invasion of Ukraine 6 months later is, if I may say so, being rather deliberately obtuse. You may be right that Crimea had an effect, but in your zeal to pin it all on that, don't dismiss the rather more obvious cause and effect that most everyone else, including eminent analysts, accept.
    I didn't - read what I wrote;
    ...and it is, for largely self-serving reasons, the conventional wisdom on the right..

    You're entitled to your judgment, as are those you cite. But I think they are wrong.
    Afghanistan isn't clear 'cause and effect' - not least because the invasion was planned at least a year before it took place.
    To re-iterate, we know from copious evidence that Putin expected the operation to be over in days.
    US intervention in that event would not have been military.
    And it very nearly was over in days. If a few events had occurred slightly differently, then Russia would have surrounded, or taken, Kyiv. I hope Putin's tormented at night by how close it was; how near he came to victory.

    But the west's reaction was not just about stopping the invasion; it's about how we would react *after* a Russian victory. There are claims that Russia wargamed this, and decided that the sanctions would be livable with - in fact, it is claimed they budgeted for the sanctions.

    And he thought he would get only weak sanctions, not the strong sanctions he has received, because he saw the west as weak and divided. Our withdrawal from Afghanistan was another case where we showed weakness. If we had shown strength, it may have caused more doubts.
    Indeed.
    But the US administration's efforts in that respect were extensive, and prolonged.
    That much of Europe, and Putin himself, ignored them has little to do with Afghanistan.
    Reread this article:
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/02/24/russia-ukraine-war-oral-history-00083757

    Heather might learn something from it, too.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,728

    O/T I cannot believe it is nine years to the day that the forces of righteousness & enlightenment defeated the forces of darkness & nationalism in the Indyref.

    Where does the time go?

    Almost a generation ago...
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    .

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    The expanding lexicon of euphemisms is quite something.

    Lauren Boebert apologizes again for ‘maybe overtly animated’ behavior at theater
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/17/lauren-boebert-apologizes-again-behavior-at-theater

    Perhaps Brand could say his behaviour 'fell short of his values'.
    If he had any.

    You want to compare vaping when it's not allowed with accusations of rape and sexual assault?
    Its all to do with the integrity of the politician.

    Nigelb wants more upright candidates like Susanna Gibson

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12522931/Virginia-porn-Dem-Susanna-Gibson-seen-time-X-rated-video-husband-leaked-online-constituents-rally-her.html
    You're a bit late on that.
    I first posted it here days ago.

    Incidentally, possibly illegally leaked by Republican activists.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    edited September 2023

    In slightly funny news, a pilot ejected out of an F35 over South Carolina yesterday. The pilot's been located and is alive, but there is no immediate evidence that the plane crashed. The *rumours* are that it kept on flying on autopilot; and that they cannot locate it.

    It won't be, but I'd love it to be another Cornfield Bomber...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornfield_Bomber

    At least when the British one went over the end of the carrier last year, they knew exactly where it was and could quickly set about recovering it, albeit at quite some expense.

    Surprised that 12 hours later they still don’t know where it is, although of course these things are designed to look no bigger than a bird on primary radar. It could well be in the Atlantic, in which case there’s going to be one hell of a search operation launched to find it, lest the Chinese or the Russians get to it first.

    I actually know someone who bailed out of a test flight in a prototype glider, after it became uncontrollable in flight - yet it somehow ended up landing at the airfield from which it had taken off, albeit rather heavily. The pilot landed a couple of miles away under his parachute, and was thankfully uninjured.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,027
    One would’ve thought that Putin would have considered the chaotic Russian withdrawal from Afghanistan.
    Good morning, everybody!
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    In slightly funny news, a pilot ejected out of an F35 over South Carolina yesterday. The pilot's been located and is alive, but there is no immediate evidence that the plane crashed. The *rumours* are that it kept on flying on autopilot; and that they cannot locate it.

    It won't be, but I'd love it to be another Cornfield Bomber...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornfield_Bomber

    At least when the British one went over the end of the carrier last year, they knew exactly where it was and could quickly set about recovering it, albeit at quite some expense.

    Surprised that 12 hours later they still don’t know where it is, although of course these things are designed to look no bigger than a bird on primary radar. It could well be in the Atlantic, in which case there’s going to be one hell of a search operation launched to find it, lest the Chinese or the Russians get to it first.

    I actually know someone who bailed out of a test flight in a prototype glider, after it became uncontrollable in flight - yet it somehow ended up landing at the airfield from which it had taken off, albeit rather heavily. The pilot landed a couple of miles away under his parachute, and was thankfully uninjured.
    I thought about the stealthy aspects as well; except for the fact it won't have a canopy, and would therefore would have a much larger radar signature, particularly from airborne radars.

    More likely its transponder was switched off / disabled, and the US military did not turn on, or get suitable radars into the area, in time.

    (IANAE, WAG, etc, etc)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,502
    Heathener said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    Spot on

    And, on the subject of Ukraine, most of you will be aware that despite being one of those dreadful Leftie types, I argued from the outset that we should have installed a No Fly Zone over Ukraine.

    You have to stand up to bullies.
    After telling people in the run up to the invasion that arming Ukraine was raising tensions, that there was going to be no war etc…

    The consequences of a no fly zone - NATO pilots directly shooting down Russian aircraft and attacking Russian air defences deep inside Russia have been explained a number of times.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919

    Sandpit said:

    In slightly funny news, a pilot ejected out of an F35 over South Carolina yesterday. The pilot's been located and is alive, but there is no immediate evidence that the plane crashed. The *rumours* are that it kept on flying on autopilot; and that they cannot locate it.

    It won't be, but I'd love it to be another Cornfield Bomber...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornfield_Bomber

    At least when the British one went over the end of the carrier last year, they knew exactly where it was and could quickly set about recovering it, albeit at quite some expense.

    Surprised that 12 hours later they still don’t know where it is, although of course these things are designed to look no bigger than a bird on primary radar. It could well be in the Atlantic, in which case there’s going to be one hell of a search operation launched to find it, lest the Chinese or the Russians get to it first.

    I actually know someone who bailed out of a test flight in a prototype glider, after it became uncontrollable in flight - yet it somehow ended up landing at the airfield from which it had taken off, albeit rather heavily. The pilot landed a couple of miles away under his parachute, and was thankfully uninjured.
    I thought about the stealthy aspects as well; except for the fact it won't have a canopy, and would therefore would have a much larger radar signature, particularly from airborne radars.

    More likely its transponder was switched off / disabled, and the US military did not turn on, or get suitable radars into the area, in time.

    (IANAE, WAG, etc, etc)
    IANAE either, but I would have thought that, during a training exercise in your own territory, rather than in a war, a pilot ejecting from a plane would enable high-power locator beacons on both pilot and plane, such that they can be quickly identified and recovered.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,526
    edited September 2023

    Sandpit said:

    In slightly funny news, a pilot ejected out of an F35 over South Carolina yesterday. The pilot's been located and is alive, but there is no immediate evidence that the plane crashed. The *rumours* are that it kept on flying on autopilot; and that they cannot locate it.

    It won't be, but I'd love it to be another Cornfield Bomber...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornfield_Bomber

    At least when the British one went over the end of the carrier last year, they knew exactly where it was and could quickly set about recovering it, albeit at quite some expense.

    Surprised that 12 hours later they still don’t know where it is, although of course these things are designed to look no bigger than a bird on primary radar. It could well be in the Atlantic, in which case there’s going to be one hell of a search operation launched to find it, lest the Chinese or the Russians get to it first.

    I actually know someone who bailed out of a test flight in a prototype glider, after it became uncontrollable in flight - yet it somehow ended up landing at the airfield from which it had taken off, albeit rather heavily. The pilot landed a couple of miles away under his parachute, and was thankfully uninjured.
    I thought about the stealthy aspects as well; except for the fact it won't have a canopy, and would therefore would have a much larger radar signature, particularly from airborne radars.

    More likely its transponder was switched off / disabled, and the US military did not turn on, or get suitable radars into the area, in time.

    (IANAE, WAG, etc, etc)
    They should have put an Apple AirTag on it.

    Helps me locate so many things.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,703
    Fishing said:

    On topic, Biden has two problems: his age, and that he's been a deeply mediocre President, with low approval ratings that have never recovered from his disastrous Afghanistan decision. If he'd been a good President, his age would seem less important.

    Of course, if he'd picked a decent Vice-President, rather than a token because it was "time", he might be handing the nomination over to him gracefully about now. But as it is, he'll certainly try to run again, given that he believes that beating Trump is a sacred duty, and there's no-one else who stands a chance. That may be narcissistic, but he's a senior politician so that goes with the territory.

    The US has seen lower inflation than most of the world. Unemployment is at record lows. Manufacturing jobs are up. He’s made significant progress on drug pricing. Health insurance coverage is up. Biden’s record is good, albeit held back by Republicans in Congress.
  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    In slightly funny news, a pilot ejected out of an F35 over South Carolina yesterday. The pilot's been located and is alive, but there is no immediate evidence that the plane crashed. The *rumours* are that it kept on flying on autopilot; and that they cannot locate it.

    It won't be, but I'd love it to be another Cornfield Bomber...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornfield_Bomber

    At least when the British one went over the end of the carrier last year, they knew exactly where it was and could quickly set about recovering it, albeit at quite some expense.

    Surprised that 12 hours later they still don’t know where it is, although of course these things are designed to look no bigger than a bird on primary radar. It could well be in the Atlantic, in which case there’s going to be one hell of a search operation launched to find it, lest the Chinese or the Russians get to it first.

    I actually know someone who bailed out of a test flight in a prototype glider, after it became uncontrollable in flight - yet it somehow ended up landing at the airfield from which it had taken off, albeit rather heavily. The pilot landed a couple of miles away under his parachute, and was thankfully uninjured.
    I thought about the stealthy aspects as well; except for the fact it won't have a canopy, and would therefore would have a much larger radar signature, particularly from airborne radars.

    More likely its transponder was switched off / disabled, and the US military did not turn on, or get suitable radars into the area, in time.

    (IANAE, WAG, etc, etc)
    They should have put an Apple AirTag on it.

    Helps me locate so many things.
    I just find it easier and cheaper not to lose things... ;)
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    Way offtopic, but Brent Crude is likely to go through $95 a barrel today.

    That’s actually up on this date a year ago, and will make the inflation number this month much more difficult for the government.

    As I’ve been saying for months, Western governments, especially those looking at an election next year - Mr Sunak and Mr Biden - need to persuade the OPEC countries to turn on the taps, and get Putin’s black market oil out of the world trade.
  • Options
    rkrkrk said:

    Biden trading at 1.6 on betfair for the nomination.

    To win he just has to not change his mind and not die by June 2024. Even if primaried, he would surely win.

    That looks like very good odds to me?

    I must admit I'm no longer as confident as I once was.

    His decline has been notable in the last year and the campaign hasn't even started yet.
  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    In slightly funny news, a pilot ejected out of an F35 over South Carolina yesterday. The pilot's been located and is alive, but there is no immediate evidence that the plane crashed. The *rumours* are that it kept on flying on autopilot; and that they cannot locate it.

    It won't be, but I'd love it to be another Cornfield Bomber...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornfield_Bomber

    At least when the British one went over the end of the carrier last year, they knew exactly where it was and could quickly set about recovering it, albeit at quite some expense.

    Surprised that 12 hours later they still don’t know where it is, although of course these things are designed to look no bigger than a bird on primary radar. It could well be in the Atlantic, in which case there’s going to be one hell of a search operation launched to find it, lest the Chinese or the Russians get to it first.

    I actually know someone who bailed out of a test flight in a prototype glider, after it became uncontrollable in flight - yet it somehow ended up landing at the airfield from which it had taken off, albeit rather heavily. The pilot landed a couple of miles away under his parachute, and was thankfully uninjured.
    I thought about the stealthy aspects as well; except for the fact it won't have a canopy, and would therefore would have a much larger radar signature, particularly from airborne radars.

    More likely its transponder was switched off / disabled, and the US military did not turn on, or get suitable radars into the area, in time.

    (IANAE, WAG, etc, etc)
    They should have put an Apple AirTag on it.

    Helps me locate so many things.
    I just find it easier and cheaper not to lose things... ;)
    Trust me, putting an AirTag in the backpacks of your kids is a life saver.
This discussion has been closed.