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How punters now see the next election – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited July 2023 in General
imageHow punters now see the next election – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062
    First? Really??
  • Options
    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,094
    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,800

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Corbyn is 114.56% likely to either win or not win a seat, then.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,579
    Anyone know how those numbers compare with... say 24 hours ago?

    For all the fun and excitement about Uxbridge (what is it with lefties and self flagellation? At least the right know to pay for it and keep the economy moving) the big picture is that the polls are overall about right. Lots of strongly felt "we can't have five more years of this", a less strongly felt "if it has to be Starmer, hey ho". Coupled with the revival of the Lib Lab Tactical Tag Team, that means that Rishi needs an awfully big event to turn a bad defeat into a mere defeat.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,831

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The Big Smoke was surely a name acquired before the 1956 Clean Air Act?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_London
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,800
    Essexit said:

    Corbyn is 114.56% likely to either win or not win a seat, then.

    The Corbyn family was of course on show in Uxbridge. Piers didn't do terribly well.

    Jeremy is of course going to have to test his mettle in the Mayoral run (He may not have worked this out himself yet, but it's blindingly obvious)
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,846

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,002
    edited July 2023
    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,240
    the big stink
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,800

    So....... the Black Sea grain deal? Where is this headed? And more importantly why has the west's response been so tepid?

    Firstly a few facts. Turkey has more military ships in the black sea than Russia. It is little more than 100 miles from Odesa to the Romanian aka Nato coastline. So are we really saying that shipping in the black sea is going to be paralysed because Putin doesn't give it his permission? Now the Ukrainians have (not unwisely) responded in kind by saying that they would consider Russian cargo ships as possible military vehicles. There is the potential for wide scale famine in Africa. The inflation problem may be harder to solve at home. Are we really going to be resigned to this because of Russia's half arsed navy ho daren't go too near the Ukrainian coastline.

    Feeble. Let us hope some thinking is actually going on behind the scenes.

    Turkey is a significant military power - they could easily defeat the Russians as they (RUS) are now. There are no gains of merit to be had though.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    So bang goes any chance of Labour doing planning reform or taking a half-sensible stance on sex/gender issues. Grim.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    edited July 2023
    Speaking of next elections, what a timeline we have.

    Key dates for Trump next year

    15 January: Republican voters will begin the state-by-state process of picking their party's presidential nominee in so-called primary elections, the first one being in Iowa
    5 March: Super Tuesday, when voters in 14 states, including California and Texas, go to the polls. The nominee will probably be unofficially confirmed at this point
    20 May: Mr Trump's criminal trial in classified documents case begins in Florida
    15-18 July: The Republican National Convention - to formally crown the party's presidential nominee - takes place in Milwaukee, Wisconsin


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66272153

    Finding 1 person on the jury not wanting to convict the presumptive nominee (assuming for sake of argument a good case) should be interesting.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,995
    The mention of George W Bush on the previous thread reminded me of the scene below. "W" is not a good film: the acting is mannered, and it's nowhere near as good as Stone's "Nixon", but the I always enjoyed the scene where Richard Dreyfuss/Dick Cheney describes the geopolitics. Enjoy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFlsjhpGfw
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,553
    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,846
    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    Would rather have a labour majority personally than have any lib dem near the levers of power they cannot be trusted.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    I don't think we'll get a formal coalition in our lifetimes. People still go on about the politics of the 80s, I don't see the LDs feeling comfortable going coalition again, even when getting ministries out of it.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,846

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,428
    Combining Labour most votes and Tory most seats looks interesting. There's potential for both to come in, and the chance of both losing is insignificant.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,553
    viewcode said:

    The mention of George W Bush on the previous thread reminded me of the scene below. "W" is not a good film: the acting is mannered, and it's nowhere near as good as Stone's "Nixon", but the I always enjoyed the scene where Richard Dreyfuss/Dick Cheney describes the geopolitics. Enjoy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFlsjhpGfw

    A war for oil, Halliburton and Tony Blair's ego.
  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,224
    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    I expect an arrangement between them if LAB need it but I think it will be LD confidence and supply, no coalition or cabinet places.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    edited July 2023
    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Corbyn is 114.56% likely to either win or not win a seat, then.

    The Corbyn family was of course on show in Uxbridge. Piers didn't do terribly well.

    Jeremy is of course going to have to test his mettle in the Mayoral run (He may not have worked this out himself yet, but it's blindingly obvious)
    If he can maintain his status pootling along in rallies and demonstrations will he feel the need to seriously consider it? He's flirting with the idea, but is it worth his bother?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,547

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    It was never The Big Smoke. It was The Smoke

    And I’ve heard it called that
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    It was never The Big Smoke. It was The Smoke

    And I’ve heard it called that
    In recent decades?
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,995
    "Why No One Trusts The News", Wisecrack, YouTube Jul 21, 2023, 18mins 41 seconds

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hiF-Zjn2fw
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,547
    edited July 2023
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    It was never The Big Smoke. It was The Smoke

    And I’ve heard it called that
    In recent decades?
    Yes. In a faintly knowing way, but yes

    “When are you back in The Smoke?”

    That kinda thing

    The nearest equivalent is “Blighty”
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,831
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,800
    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Corbyn is 114.56% likely to either win or not win a seat, then.

    The Corbyn family was of course on show in Uxbridge. Piers didn't do terribly well.

    Jeremy is of course going to have to test his mettle in the Mayoral run (He may not have worked this out himself yet, but it's blindingly obvious)
    If he can maintain his status pootling along in rallies and demonstrations will he feel the need to seriously consider it? He's flirting with the idea, but is it worth his bother?
    Well he's gone otherwise.

    He could win as Mayor and have 4 years, but he's not going to win running in Islington to be an MP, and even if he does he's in nowhere-land.

  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,846

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,831
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    It was never The Big Smoke. It was The Smoke

    And I’ve heard it called that
    In recent decades?
    Yes. In a faintly knowing way, but yes

    “When are you back in The Smoke?”

    That kinda thing

    The nearest equivalent is “Blighty”
    It was usually referred to as The Smoke when I worked Leeds and Halifax in the 2000s.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,795
    General election this year at 7% is the very good value in that list.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,428

    So....... the Black Sea grain deal. Where is this headed? And more importantly why has the west's response been so tepid?

    Firstly a few facts. Turkey has more military ships in the black sea than Russia. It is little more than 100 miles from Odesa to the Romanian aka Nato coastline. So are we really saying that shipping in the black sea is going to be paralysed because Putin doesn't give it his permission? Now the Ukrainians have (not unwisely) responded in kind by saying that they would consider Russian cargo ships as possible military vehicles. There is the potential for wide scale famine in Africa. The inflation problem may be harder to solve at home. Are we really going to be resigned to this because of Russia's half arsed navy who daren't go too near the Ukrainian coastline.

    Feeble. Let us hope some thinking is actually going on behind the scenes.

    The West's response has generally been tepid, reluctant and slow. So a tepid response to the collapse of the grain deal is consistent with prior behaviour.

    It's only been Ukraine who have been willing to stand up to Russia, and the West have been generally ashamed into action to support them by their fine example.

    I think that if Turkish warships escorted grain ships to and from Ukrainian ports that the Russian bluff would be called. This seems unlikely to be attempted.

    Perhaps Ukraine, with their maritime drones and anti-ship missiles, will achieve enough success against the Russian navy to force a resumption of the grain deal. Russia seems to be attempting to do enough damage to Ukrainian ports that it would be difficult for Ukraine to resume exports if the deal were renewed, which perhaps suggests a certain lack of confidence in their ability to maintain a blockade.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,831
    FF43 said:

    General election this year at 7% is the very good value in that list.

    Why on earth would Sunak opt for a GE this year?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Corbyn is 114.56% likely to either win or not win a seat, then.

    The Corbyn family was of course on show in Uxbridge. Piers didn't do terribly well.

    Jeremy is of course going to have to test his mettle in the Mayoral run (He may not have worked this out himself yet, but it's blindingly obvious)
    If he can maintain his status pootling along in rallies and demonstrations will he feel the need to seriously consider it? He's flirting with the idea, but is it worth his bother?
    Well he's gone otherwise.

    He could win as Mayor and have 4 years, but he's not going to win running in Islington to be an MP, and even if he does he's in nowhere-land.

    He doesn't need to be an MP to get attention and acclaim from his target audience - for most of his career on the backbenches it barely mattered, and he's already got the cachet of being the former leader.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    Any bets on how long it lasts?

    HMS Prince of Wales returns to water after nine months of repairs
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66274118
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,831
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048

    FF43 said:

    General election this year at 7% is the very good value in that list.

    Why on earth would Sunak opt for a GE this year?
    If he thinks it is only going to get worse from here.

    It could, but hope springs eternal so I cannot see him not delaying for something, anything, to turn things around.
  • Options
    PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    I call it "Town".
    And I'm a Londoner.
    "Blighty" I use but ironically, always to mean England not Britain or GB. Scotland's not in Blighty FFS.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    Is the tide turning against corporate wokeism in America?

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/chief-diversity-officer-cdo-business-corporations-e110a82f

    "The Rise and Fall of the Chief Diversity Officer"
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,895
    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    I'm afraid not.

    The LDs were severely burned by Coalition 1.0 with the Conservatives - I'm not even sure they'd go for C&S for a minority Labour Government.

    It'll be interesting if U&SR triggers any kind of polling revival for the Conservatives - Monday's Redfield & Wilton will be interesting.

    U&SR was probably a very hard ask for Labour given the solid nature of the local Conservative vote in the north part of Hillingdon. It's an example of both volatility and resilience and a reminder uniform UNS is as reliable as sub samples. We know there are areas where the Conservative vote is more resilient and these islands of Conservative strength ensure a) there can't be an extinction event for the party but b) there are other areas where a large majority doesn't mean security if that majority is built on sand.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,846

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,800
    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    I call it "Town".
    And I'm a Londoner.
    "Blighty" I use but ironically, always to mean England not Britain or GB.
    Yes, town for me too. But that’s the centre as distinct from the inner suburbs where we live.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,579
    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    Tricky to engineer.

    Let's be ballsy on Lib Dem seats and move them up to 50. (I don't think they'll do that well.) Same for SNP- they're not going to get 50, but a hung parliament needs lots of small party seats. 19 in NI plus one for luck. That's 120 seats not held by the big two, which is crazy high. That leaves Lab + Con = 530.

    If Labour get to 320, they can survive without a deal. That requires the Conservatives to have 210 seats- any fewer than that and Labour can run a single party government by default. Turn the LD and SNP scores down to something realistic and the Conservative target goes higher.

    Of course the Conservative position can improve over the next year and a bit. But it needs to swing back a lot, or Labour get a majority more or less by default. And the range where there are enough Lib Dems MPs to be significant but few enough that the Conservatives are a real threat isn't a large one.
  • Options
    PeckPeck Posts: 517
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    Glastonbury's nice. The town, I mean. Shame about the rats. Think of all the positives.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,800
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    I'm afraid not.

    The LDs were severely burned by Coalition 1.0 with the Conservatives - I'm not even sure they'd go for C&S for a minority Labour Government.

    It'll be interesting if U&SR triggers any kind of polling revival for the Conservatives - Monday's Redfield & Wilton will be interesting.

    U&SR was probably a very hard ask for Labour given the solid nature of the local Conservative vote in the north part of Hillingdon. It's an example of both volatility and resilience and a reminder uniform UNS is as reliable as sub samples. We know there are areas where the Conservative vote is more resilient and these islands of Conservative strength ensure a) there can't be an extinction event for the party but b) there are other areas where a large majority doesn't mean security if that majority is built on sand.
    I expect another mini polling bump for the Lib Dems as another tranche of Dutch saluters lift up their jumpers.

    Doubt Tory-Labour will shift much in the short term. At least until the next big event which is probably the party conferences unless there’s a scandal in August.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,795

    FF43 said:

    General election this year at 7% is the very good value in that list.

    Why on earth would Sunak opt for a GE this year?

    He's probably won't do any better next year. Holding on, hoping something will turn up, has its attractions versus biting the bullet. But it isn't fifteen times more attractive. There is a randomness to this that the odds don't take into account.
  • Options
    OctopusOctopus Posts: 27
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    I'm afraid not.

    The LDs were severely burned by Coalition 1.0 with the Conservatives - I'm not even sure they'd go for C&S for a minority Labour Government.

    It'll be interesting if U&SR triggers any kind of polling revival for the Conservatives - Monday's Redfield & Wilton will be interesting.

    U&SR was probably a very hard ask for Labour given the solid nature of the local Conservative vote in the north part of Hillingdon. It's an example of both volatility and resilience and a reminder uniform UNS is as reliable as sub samples. We know there are areas where the Conservative vote is more resilient and these islands of Conservative strength ensure a) there can't be an extinction event for the party but b) there are other areas where a large majority doesn't mean security if that majority is built on sand.
    Also bear in mind indians are about 20% of the uxbridge constituency. There would likely be a fair proportion of that ethnic vote loyal to Sunak.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,800
    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Corbyn is 114.56% likely to either win or not win a seat, then.

    The Corbyn family was of course on show in Uxbridge. Piers didn't do terribly well.

    Jeremy is of course going to have to test his mettle in the Mayoral run (He may not have worked this out himself yet, but it's blindingly obvious)
    If he can maintain his status pootling along in rallies and demonstrations will he feel the need to seriously consider it? He's flirting with the idea, but is it worth his bother?
    Well he's gone otherwise.

    He could win as Mayor and have 4 years, but he's not going to win running in Islington to be an MP, and even if he does he's in nowhere-land.

    He doesn't need to be an MP to get attention and acclaim from his target audience - for most of his career on the backbenches it barely mattered, and he's already got the cachet of being the former leader.
    Well, if you're right, and if he fails to have a platform, I'll bet you one of my (very rare) brass razoos that he'll be quickly forgotten.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Corbyn is 114.56% likely to either win or not win a seat, then.

    The Corbyn family was of course on show in Uxbridge. Piers didn't do terribly well.

    Jeremy is of course going to have to test his mettle in the Mayoral run (He may not have worked this out himself yet, but it's blindingly obvious)
    If he can maintain his status pootling along in rallies and demonstrations will he feel the need to seriously consider it? He's flirting with the idea, but is it worth his bother?
    Well he's gone otherwise.

    He could win as Mayor and have 4 years, but he's not going to win running in Islington to be an MP, and even if he does he's in nowhere-land.

    He doesn't need to be an MP to get attention and acclaim from his target audience - for most of his career on the backbenches it barely mattered, and he's already got the cachet of being the former leader.
    Well, if you're right, and if he fails to have a platform, I'll bet you one of my (very rare) brass razoos that he'll be quickly forgotten.
    By us - not the true believers, and that's what matters to him.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062
    Omnium said:

    So....... the Black Sea grain deal? Where is this headed? And more importantly why has the west's response been so tepid?

    Firstly a few facts. Turkey has more military ships in the black sea than Russia. It is little more than 100 miles from Odesa to the Romanian aka Nato coastline. So are we really saying that shipping in the black sea is going to be paralysed because Putin doesn't give it his permission? Now the Ukrainians have (not unwisely) responded in kind by saying that they would consider Russian cargo ships as possible military vehicles. There is the potential for wide scale famine in Africa. The inflation problem may be harder to solve at home. Are we really going to be resigned to this because of Russia's half arsed navy ho daren't go too near the Ukrainian coastline.

    Feeble. Let us hope some thinking is actually going on behind the scenes.

    Turkey is a significant military power - they could easily defeat the Russians as they (RUS) are now. There are no gains of merit to be had though.
    So we're happy to be held hostage by a mediocre military power?
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,658
    viewcode said:

    The mention of George W Bush on the previous thread reminded me of the scene below. "W" is not a good film: the acting is mannered, and it's nowhere near as good as Stone's "Nixon", but the I always enjoyed the scene where Richard Dreyfuss/Dick Cheney describes the geopolitics. Enjoy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFlsjhpGfw

    FPT - While Mr & Mrs Bush the Younger are undoubtedly nicer people than, say, Mr & Mrs3 Trump, and ditto Mr & Mrs Obama compared with Mr & Mrs Clinton, sadly most of the cheery greeting to the White House by Ws to Os, was result of high-powered PR-work by both sides. Serving their own interests.

    Note for starters, the Bush/Obama interactions after latter's election, were very conscious counter-point to the less-than-positive welcome tendered to Bushies in 2001 by Clintonistas in West Wing, featuring snarky notes left on desks for the new team. And just as snarky publicizing of same by W's bunch.

    Hardly surprising following the 2000 election crisis, but hardly edifying either, on either side.

    Fast-forward to 2008, when W is leaving office with little left of his former popularity. And bad taste in his mouth from being 2nd-banana to Dick Cheney for eight years. Indeed, with Bush blaming his VP for the public souring on him and him.

    So W had every incentive to play nice. Especially methinks, since his daughter Jenna was embarking upon a media career, that continues to this day, as a regular on US morning TV.

    And also keep in mind, that the Bushes and Obamas belong, along with the Carters, to a VERY exclusive club: former POTUS and FLOTUS.

    A club from which Mr & Mrs Trump, despite their ostensible qualifications, have very clearly been blackballed.

  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,428

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    Tricky to engineer.

    Let's be ballsy on Lib Dem seats and move them up to 50. (I don't think they'll do that well.) Same for SNP- they're not going to get 50, but a hung parliament needs lots of small party seats. 19 in NI plus one for luck. That's 120 seats not held by the big two, which is crazy high. That leaves Lab + Con = 530.

    If Labour get to 320, they can survive without a deal. That requires the Conservatives to have 210 seats- any fewer than that and Labour can run a single party government by default. Turn the LD and SNP scores down to something realistic and the Conservative target goes higher.

    Of course the Conservative position can improve over the next year and a bit. But it needs to swing back a lot, or Labour get a majority more or less by default. And the range where there are enough Lib Dems MPs to be significant but few enough that the Conservatives are a real threat isn't a large one.
    Two elections in 2025 might be an interesting bet. Sunak holds on to the last moment. Labour make enough gains to form a minority government, but there's no coalition or confidence and supply deal with the SNP or Lib Dems. Starmer calls a second election later in the year to ask the voters for a majority.
  • Options
    OctopusOctopus Posts: 27
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    General election this year at 7% is the very good value in that list.

    Why on earth would Sunak opt for a GE this year?

    He's probably won't do any better next year. Holding on, hoping something will turn up, has its attractions versus biting the bullet. But it isn't fifteen times more attractive. There is a randomness to this that the odds don't take into account.
    Big risks too if there is a big downturn in the economy.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,800
    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Corbyn is 114.56% likely to either win or not win a seat, then.

    The Corbyn family was of course on show in Uxbridge. Piers didn't do terribly well.

    Jeremy is of course going to have to test his mettle in the Mayoral run (He may not have worked this out himself yet, but it's blindingly obvious)
    If he can maintain his status pootling along in rallies and demonstrations will he feel the need to seriously consider it? He's flirting with the idea, but is it worth his bother?
    Well he's gone otherwise.

    He could win as Mayor and have 4 years, but he's not going to win running in Islington to be an MP, and even if he does he's in nowhere-land.

    He doesn't need to be an MP to get attention and acclaim from his target audience - for most of his career on the backbenches it barely mattered, and he's already got the cachet of being the former leader.
    Well, if you're right, and if he fails to have a platform, I'll bet you one of my (very rare) brass razoos that he'll be quickly forgotten.
    By us - not the true believers, and that's what matters to him.
    Corbyn doesn't care a fig for his believers. They're behind him, and the future is ahead.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,359
    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Corbyn is 114.56% likely to either win or not win a seat, then.

    The Corbyn family was of course on show in Uxbridge. Piers didn't do terribly well.

    Jeremy is of course going to have to test his mettle in the Mayoral run (He may not have worked this out himself yet, but it's blindingly obvious)
    If he can maintain his status pootling along in rallies and demonstrations will he feel the need to seriously consider it? He's flirting with the idea, but is it worth his bother?
    Well he's gone otherwise.

    He could win as Mayor and have 4 years, but he's not going to win running in Islington to be an MP, and even if he does he's in nowhere-land.
    I'd have thought he'd have a better chance in Islington than for London mayor.
  • Options
    PeckPeck Posts: 517
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    I'm afraid not.

    The LDs were severely burned by Coalition 1.0 with the Conservatives - I'm not even sure they'd go for C&S for a minority Labour Government.
    If they join a coalition with either Labour or the Tories, then they get their arses in the major ministries. They won't get that if their position is merely not to vote against a King's Speech or in favour of a no confidence motion for the time being, and to take every Commons vote as it comes. So they get "burned" and walloped in 2029 - so what? I'm puzzled as to what you think the Liberal Democrats' aim is. "We don't want to enter government now because we want a LibDem majority in the future"? Of course they want to enter the government and if they get a chance to sign up to a coalition agreement for 4-5 years they'll take it.

    Not that I think a hung parliament is at all likely.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,846

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,960
    FPT:
    Carnyx said:

    This thread has been suffocated by PM2 and all the other nasties.


    If anyone is especially bored - there's a nice add-on for an rpi (works with a zero so fairly cheap) :

    https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/enviro?variant=31155658457171

    Gives you some nice graphs of gas/particulates/etc in your environment :




  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,224

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    Tricky to engineer.

    Let's be ballsy on Lib Dem seats and move them up to 50. (I don't think they'll do that well.) Same for SNP- they're not going to get 50, but a hung parliament needs lots of small party seats. 19 in NI plus one for luck. That's 120 seats not held by the big two, which is crazy high. That leaves Lab + Con = 530.

    If Labour get to 320, they can survive without a deal. That requires the Conservatives to have 210 seats- any fewer than that and Labour can run a single party government by default. Turn the LD and SNP scores down to something realistic and the Conservative target goes higher.

    Of course the Conservative position can improve over the next year and a bit. But it needs to swing back a lot, or Labour get a majority more or less by default. And the range where there are enough Lib Dems MPs to be significant but few enough that the Conservatives are a real threat isn't a large one.
    Two elections in 2025 might be an interesting bet. Sunak holds on to the last moment. Labour make enough gains to form a minority government, but there's no coalition or confidence and supply deal with the SNP or Lib Dems. Starmer calls a second election later in the year to ask the voters for a majority.
    Hanging onto Jan 2025 will not be popular with the electorate. There will be no enthusiasm for a Christmas campaign or going to vote in freezing mid January.

    I know the last one was Dec but the circumstances were exceptional and the weather in mid Dec is generally much better than mid January.

    If Rishi hangs on to then it's am act of extreme desperation and the voters will respond by giving Keir a clear majority.
  • Options
    TimS said:

    EPG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Labour should not backtrack on its environmental policies because of the result in Uxbridge, for two main reasons, in order of priority:

    1. Measures to reduce air pollution in cities and, more generally, to tackle climate change are urgently needed.
    2. Any backtracking would lead to a significant increase in the Green vote at the next GE, potentially losing Labour quite a few seats.

    That's not to say that the implementation of schemes like ULEZ shouldn't be improved. But they shouldn't be abandoned.

    Double-down on the environmental measures in central London, without making life difficult for people living on the edge of the metropolis like Uxbridge where a car is still important.
    Picking this up from earlier.

    That doesn't work, because it is the Outer London Boroughs which are the most polluted based on the published scorecard, and therefore most in need of measures to be taken - despite some of those Boroughs refusing to take responsibility for themselves.

    Hillingdon, where if my geography is correct is where the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency is located, is one of the worst of all.

    https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/blog/most-polluted-london-boroughs
    That "published scorecard" looks like total bovine manure by those with an axe to grind to me. Heavily weighting things like "light" that have nothing to do with air quality anyway.

    The two measures that this is supposed to tackle is NOX and PM2.5, not the garbage in that chart that seems to have been designed backwards with a desired outcome and then working back from there.

    If you look at what is red for PM2.5 then the result is clear, central London has a problem, and Heathrow has a problem ... and that's about it.

    Switch to NOX and while central London and Heathrow remains red, most of outer London is colour coded ... green.

    image
    https://naei.beis.gov.uk/emissionsapp/
    That map is doing a hell of a lot of averaging out. The outer areas do tend to have ribbon development with trees and fields in between. It's the actual places around the roads where people live that are the issue.
    Both criticisms are fair.
    I think this is probably the map we want (though the 2020 date is not ideal):


    (data from GLA/mayor of London)
    Yes, that proves it.

    Heathrow aside, the air quality is far worse in Central London than outer London.

    Which shouldn't shock anyone who has thought about it, or been there.

    It takes a special kind of voodoo to create a dodgy chart that inverses that.
    How does air traffic at Heathrow comply with ULEZ? Almost all of it is inside the GLA border.
    It doesn't. It is an outstanding example of, in Jesus's words, straining out gnats and swallowing camels.

    Millions of people who drive older cars have never been in an aeroplane. Their youthful woke critics (I know lots of both groups) treat air travel like casual bus rides.
    An interesting statistic would be the percentage of climate activists who've sat in first/business class on a plane compared to the average person.
    Why would it be interesting? Would it add to the scientific stock of knowledge?
    Absolutely. If climate activists have sat in business class in significant numbers then it is statistical proof that anthropogenic CO2 doesn’t cause warming and therefore we can stop worrying. Simple.
    Quite the opposite. Almost everyone agrees that anthropogenic CO2 does cause climate change. The only thing we disagree on is how that should be tackled.

    Personally I think we need to invest in clean technologies to replace dirty technologies. Continue flying, driving etc but doing so in a clean eg electric or hydrogen manner that doesn't harm the environment. That investing in science and technology and encouraging people to make the switch as the alternatives become available is the solution.

    Other think that "just stopping" investment in jobs that people need in this country, relying on equally or more polluting imports they themselves can easily afford from other countries instead, and taxing travel so that proles don't get in the way can't afford travel, but they themselves can continue to afford first class/business travel as and when they want it, is the solution instead.

    Now personally I think the former is a sensible, scientific solution for what is a serious scientific problem, while the latter is just unscientific gibberish, deeply regressive and ugly hypocrisy and should be called out for what it is.
  • Options
    OctopusOctopus Posts: 27
    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
  • Options
    OctopusOctopus Posts: 27

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    Tricky to engineer.

    Let's be ballsy on Lib Dem seats and move them up to 50. (I don't think they'll do that well.) Same for SNP- they're not going to get 50, but a hung parliament needs lots of small party seats. 19 in NI plus one for luck. That's 120 seats not held by the big two, which is crazy high. That leaves Lab + Con = 530.

    If Labour get to 320, they can survive without a deal. That requires the Conservatives to have 210 seats- any fewer than that and Labour can run a single party government by default. Turn the LD and SNP scores down to something realistic and the Conservative target goes higher.

    Of course the Conservative position can improve over the next year and a bit. But it needs to swing back a lot, or Labour get a majority more or less by default. And the range where there are enough Lib Dems MPs to be significant but few enough that the Conservatives are a real threat isn't a large one.
    Two elections in 2025 might be an interesting bet. Sunak holds on to the last moment. Labour make enough gains to form a minority government, but there's no coalition or confidence and supply deal with the SNP or Lib Dems. Starmer calls a second election later in the year to ask the voters for a majority.
    Hanging onto Jan 2025 will not be popular with the electorate. There will be no enthusiasm for a Christmas campaign or going to vote in freezing mid January.

    I know the last one was Dec but the circumstances were exceptional and the weather in mid Dec is generally much better than mid January.

    If Rishi hangs on to then it's am act of extreme desperation and the voters will respond by giving Keir a clear majority.
    Not only that there would be a serious risk of snow in northern england producing differential turnout.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,174
    Surely Rishi Sunak is going to win his seat whatever happens? Isn't it incredibly safe?
  • Options

    Surely Rishi Sunak is going to win his seat whatever happens? Isn't it incredibly safe?

    Unless he steps down, that could be a proxy for him not being PM at the election?

    Is there a market on whether Sunak is replaced before the GE? If there is, how do the 2 correlate?
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,853

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    It was never The Big Smoke. It was The Smoke

    And I’ve heard it called that
    In recent decades?
    Yes. In a faintly knowing way, but yes

    “When are you back in The Smoke?”

    That kinda thing

    The nearest equivalent is “Blighty”
    It was usually referred to as The Smoke when I worked Leeds and Halifax in the 2000s.
    Clearly the reference is long known within London though:

    https://youtu.be/qU5ftzDJ4X4
    The Kinks / Big Black Smoke
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,846
    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,658
    kinabalu said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Corbyn is 114.56% likely to either win or not win a seat, then.

    The Corbyn family was of course on show in Uxbridge. Piers didn't do terribly well.

    Jeremy is of course going to have to test his mettle in the Mayoral run (He may not have worked this out himself yet, but it's blindingly obvious)
    If he can maintain his status pootling along in rallies and demonstrations will he feel the need to seriously consider it? He's flirting with the idea, but is it worth his bother?
    Well he's gone otherwise.

    He could win as Mayor and have 4 years, but he's not going to win running in Islington to be an MP, and even if he does he's in nowhere-land.
    I'd have thought he'd have a better chance in Islington than for London mayor.
    He's been there, done that. WAY more fun to run for mayor and maybe elect a Wack Tory, thus deeply embarrassing Starmer.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,174
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    The view that Londoners are unfriendly is a bit dated. These days people in London are about average in terms of friendliness, IMHO. Less friendly than most places in the North probably but friendlier than much of the South East.
  • Options
    PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
    You are wildly overstating the position. If you just said London's an unfriendly place compared to most other places in Britain, that would unfortunately be accurate.

    Edit: @OnlyLivingBoy - where do you count as the Southeast? I'd agree if you said London and the wider area around it, maybe 50 miles radius or something like that, is a relatively unfriendly place. London is friendlier than a few ultra-arsehole stockbroker-type places outside the official GL area I suppose.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,174

    Surely Rishi Sunak is going to win his seat whatever happens? Isn't it incredibly safe?

    Unless he steps down, that could be a proxy for him not being PM at the election?

    Is there a market on whether Sunak is replaced before the GE? If there is, how do the 2 correlate?
    That seems really unlikely to me. He's only just got his feet under the table. No way he walks away.
  • Options

    viewcode said:

    The mention of George W Bush on the previous thread reminded me of the scene below. "W" is not a good film: the acting is mannered, and it's nowhere near as good as Stone's "Nixon", but the I always enjoyed the scene where Richard Dreyfuss/Dick Cheney describes the geopolitics. Enjoy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFlsjhpGfw

    FPT - While Mr & Mrs Bush the Younger are undoubtedly nicer people than, say, Mr & Mrs3 Trump, and ditto Mr & Mrs Obama compared with Mr & Mrs Clinton, sadly most of the cheery greeting to the White House by Ws to Os, was result of high-powered PR-work by both sides. Serving their own interests.

    Note for starters, the Bush/Obama interactions after latter's election, were very conscious counter-point to the less-than-positive welcome tendered to Bushies in 2001 by Clintonistas in West Wing, featuring snarky notes left on desks for the new team. And just as snarky publicizing of same by W's bunch.

    Hardly surprising following the 2000 election crisis, but hardly edifying either, on either side.

    Fast-forward to 2008, when W is leaving office with little left of his former popularity. And bad taste in his mouth from being 2nd-banana to Dick Cheney for eight years. Indeed, with Bush blaming his VP for the public souring on him and him.

    So W had every incentive to play nice. Especially methinks, since his daughter Jenna was embarking upon a media career, that continues to this day, as a regular on US morning TV.

    And also keep in mind, that the Bushes and Obamas belong, along with the Carters, to a VERY exclusive club: former POTUS and FLOTUS.

    A club from which Mr & Mrs Trump, despite their ostensible qualifications, have very clearly been blackballed.

    Whether it was serving their interests or not, good behaviour is still good behaviour and should be commended when it happens.

    I'd note one more difference between 2000 and 2008 that you hadn't noted. In 2008 not only was the election result itself hardly edifying but Clinton was probably quite disappointed his running mate lost.

    In 2008 on the other hand, Bush had no such connection or love for McCain, so his parties defeat was probably much less personal to him as he retired from politics than it had been for Bill Clinton.
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    PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    deleted
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,174
    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
    You are wildly overstating the position. If you just said London's an unfriendly place compared to most other places in Britain, that would unfortunately be accurate.
    I actually don't think even that is true anymore.
  • Options

    Surely Rishi Sunak is going to win his seat whatever happens? Isn't it incredibly safe?

    Unless he steps down, that could be a proxy for him not being PM at the election?

    Is there a market on whether Sunak is replaced before the GE? If there is, how do the 2 correlate?
    That seems really unlikely to me. He's only just got his feet under the table. No way he walks away.
    If he's ousted as PM I don't think he stands as a Constituency MP at the following election and the Party has found a way to oust three Prime Ministers in four years, and he's hardly doing well.

    He will probably survive as PM not so much because of any love for him, but because there's no major alternative and the Party is increasingly resigned to defeat anyway. But his survival to the next election is far from guaranteed, so a proxy for him not surviving is not unreasonable.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,579

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    Tricky to engineer.

    Let's be ballsy on Lib Dem seats and move them up to 50. (I don't think they'll do that well.) Same for SNP- they're not going to get 50, but a hung parliament needs lots of small party seats. 19 in NI plus one for luck. That's 120 seats not held by the big two, which is crazy high. That leaves Lab + Con = 530.

    If Labour get to 320, they can survive without a deal. That requires the Conservatives to have 210 seats- any fewer than that and Labour can run a single party government by default. Turn the LD and SNP scores down to something realistic and the Conservative target goes higher.

    Of course the Conservative position can improve over the next year and a bit. But it needs to swing back a lot, or Labour get a majority more or less by default. And the range where there are enough Lib Dems MPs to be significant but few enough that the Conservatives are a real threat isn't a large one.
    Two elections in 2025 might be an interesting bet. Sunak holds on to the last moment. Labour make enough gains to form a minority government, but there's no coalition or confidence and supply deal with the SNP or Lib Dems. Starmer calls a second election later in the year to ask the voters for a majority.
    It's roughly what Wilson did- twice. And I think Starmer admires Wilson, sees himself in that mold.
  • Options
    OctopusOctopus Posts: 27

    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
    You are wildly overstating the position. If you just said London's an unfriendly place compared to most other places in Britain, that would unfortunately be accurate.
    I actually don't think even that is true anymore.
    Even northern cities vary in friendliness. I would say Newcastle is friendlier than leeds for example.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,033

    Surely Rishi Sunak is going to win his seat whatever happens? Isn't it incredibly safe?

    Unless he steps down, that could be a proxy for him not being PM at the election?

    Is there a market on whether Sunak is replaced before the GE? If there is, how do the 2 correlate?
    That seems really unlikely to me. He's only just got his feet under the table. No way he walks away.
    If he's ousted as PM I don't think he stands as a Constituency MP at the following election and the Party has found a way to oust three Prime Ministers in four years, and he's hardly doing well.

    He will probably survive as PM not so much because of any love for him, but because there's no major alternative and the Party is increasingly resigned to defeat anyway. But his survival to the next election is far from guaranteed, so a proxy for him not surviving is not unreasonable.
    This would be the ideal time for Truss to have campaigned against him, and then to have been equally useless as PM, but of course they decided to do it in reverse order.
  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,224

    Surely Rishi Sunak is going to win his seat whatever happens? Isn't it incredibly safe?

    Unless he steps down, that could be a proxy for him not being PM at the election?

    Is there a market on whether Sunak is replaced before the GE? If there is, how do the 2 correlate?
    That seems really unlikely to me. He's only just got his feet under the table. No way he walks away.
    If he's ousted as PM I don't think he stands as a Constituency MP at the following election and the Party has found a way to oust three Prime Ministers in four years, and he's hardly doing well.

    He will probably survive as PM not so much because of any love for him, but because there's no major alternative and the Party is increasingly resigned to defeat anyway. But his survival to the next election is far from guaranteed, so a proxy for him not surviving is not unreasonable.
    It's not long now to the next GE which will be in 2024. Rishi will be there leading CON. He will hold his seat very comfortably.

    After the GE though, let's see!
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,841

    Surely Rishi Sunak is going to win his seat whatever happens? Isn't it incredibly safe?

    I guess it's a proxy for a new Conservative Party leader. If the Tories depose Sunak, he'll presumably not stand again.

  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,846
    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
    You are wildly overstating the position. If you just said London's an unfriendly place compared to most other places in Britain, that would unfortunately be accurate.

    Edit: @OnlyLivingBoy - where do you count as the Southeast? I'd agree if you said London and the wider area around it, maybe 50 miles radius or something like that, is a relatively unfriendly place. London is friendlier than a few ultra-arsehole stockbroker-type places outside the official GL area I suppose.
    Sorry lived in the south east near london since 1987, just moved back to the south west. People in the south east are totally unfriendly in comparison and I put it mostly down to every day is a struggle fighting with the hordes of commuters and exorbitant housing costs. I am so more relaxed now I have moved away
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,800
    Octopus said:

    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
    You are wildly overstating the position. If you just said London's an unfriendly place compared to most other places in Britain, that would unfortunately be accurate.
    I actually don't think even that is true anymore.
    Even northern cities vary in friendliness. I would say Newcastle is friendlier than leeds for example.
    Did anyone say 'welcome to Pb?' - If not then welcome, and otherwise hello.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,403

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    In my case, running into two people who thought they could swindle me and a safeguarding risk today means I've met three assholes and still proved that saying wrong.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,579

    Surely Rishi Sunak is going to win his seat whatever happens? Isn't it incredibly safe?

    I saw somewhere that it (just) fell on the Selby swing. But that swing was utterly bonkers. If Sunak were to lose his seat, that would be the least of the Conservatives' problems.
  • Options
    OctopusOctopus Posts: 27
    Pagan2 said:

    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
    You are wildly overstating the position. If you just said London's an unfriendly place compared to most other places in Britain, that would unfortunately be accurate.

    Edit: @OnlyLivingBoy - where do you count as the Southeast? I'd agree if you said London and the wider area around it, maybe 50 miles radius or something like that, is a relatively unfriendly place. London is friendlier than a few ultra-arsehole stockbroker-type places outside the official GL area I suppose.
    Sorry lived in the south east near london since 1987, just moved back to the south west. People in the south east are totally unfriendly in comparison and I put it mostly down to every day is a struggle fighting with the hordes of commuters and exorbitant housing costs. I am so more relaxed now I have moved away
    Oh defnitely. Even at university i found people from say Southampton or Exeter more friendly than those from near London.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,831
    edited July 2023

    TimS said:

    EPG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Labour should not backtrack on its environmental policies because of the result in Uxbridge, for two main reasons, in order of priority:

    1. Measures to reduce air pollution in cities and, more generally, to tackle climate change are urgently needed.
    2. Any backtracking would lead to a significant increase in the Green vote at the next GE, potentially losing Labour quite a few seats.

    That's not to say that the implementation of schemes like ULEZ shouldn't be improved. But they shouldn't be abandoned.

    Double-down on the environmental measures in central London, without making life difficult for people living on the edge of the metropolis like Uxbridge where a car is still important.
    Picking this up from earlier.

    That doesn't work, because it is the Outer London Boroughs which are the most polluted based on the published scorecard, and therefore most in need of measures to be taken - despite some of those Boroughs refusing to take responsibility for themselves.

    Hillingdon, where if my geography is correct is where the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency is located, is one of the worst of all.

    https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/blog/most-polluted-london-boroughs
    That "published scorecard" looks like total bovine manure by those with an axe to grind to me. Heavily weighting things like "light" that have nothing to do with air quality anyway.

    The two measures that this is supposed to tackle is NOX and PM2.5, not the garbage in that chart that seems to have been designed backwards with a desired outcome and then working back from there.

    If you look at what is red for PM2.5 then the result is clear, central London has a problem, and Heathrow has a problem ... and that's about it.

    Switch to NOX and while central London and Heathrow remains red, most of outer London is colour coded ... green.

    image
    https://naei.beis.gov.uk/emissionsapp/
    That map is doing a hell of a lot of averaging out. The outer areas do tend to have ribbon development with trees and fields in between. It's the actual places around the roads where people live that are the issue.
    Both criticisms are fair.
    I think this is probably the map we want (though the 2020 date is not ideal):


    (data from GLA/mayor of London)
    Yes, that proves it.

    Heathrow aside, the air quality is far worse in Central London than outer London.

    Which shouldn't shock anyone who has thought about it, or been there.

    It takes a special kind of voodoo to create a dodgy chart that inverses that.
    How does air traffic at Heathrow comply with ULEZ? Almost all of it is inside the GLA border.
    It doesn't. It is an outstanding example of, in Jesus's words, straining out gnats and swallowing camels.

    Millions of people who drive older cars have never been in an aeroplane. Their youthful woke critics (I know lots of both groups) treat air travel like casual bus rides.
    An interesting statistic would be the percentage of climate activists who've sat in first/business class on a plane compared to the average person.
    Why would it be interesting? Would it add to the scientific stock of knowledge?
    Absolutely. If climate activists have sat in business class in significant numbers then it is statistical proof that anthropogenic CO2 doesn’t cause warming and therefore we can stop worrying. Simple.
    Quite the opposite. Almost everyone agrees that anthropogenic CO2 does cause climate change. The only thing we disagree on is how that should be tackled.

    Personally I think we need to invest in clean technologies to replace dirty technologies. Continue flying, driving etc but doing so in a clean eg electric or hydrogen manner that doesn't harm the environment. That investing in science and technology and encouraging people to make the switch as the alternatives become available is the solution.

    Other think that "just stopping" investment in jobs that people need in this country, relying on equally or more polluting imports they themselves can easily afford from other countries instead, and taxing travel so that proles don't get in the way can't afford travel, but they themselves can continue to afford first class/business travel as and when they want it, is the solution instead.

    Now personally I think the former is a sensible, scientific solution for what is a serious scientific problem, while the latter is just unscientific gibberish, deeply regressive and ugly hypocrisy and should be called out for what it is.
    These approaches are not mutually exclusive though.

    Whilst I absolutely agree we should 'invest in clean technologies to replace dirty technologies', we should in parallel also encourage people to reduce their carbon footprint in the interim, while those new technologies come to fruition.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,658

    viewcode said:

    The mention of George W Bush on the previous thread reminded me of the scene below. "W" is not a good film: the acting is mannered, and it's nowhere near as good as Stone's "Nixon", but the I always enjoyed the scene where Richard Dreyfuss/Dick Cheney describes the geopolitics. Enjoy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFlsjhpGfw

    FPT - While Mr & Mrs Bush the Younger are undoubtedly nicer people than, say, Mr & Mrs3 Trump, and ditto Mr & Mrs Obama compared with Mr & Mrs Clinton, sadly most of the cheery greeting to the White House by Ws to Os, was result of high-powered PR-work by both sides. Serving their own interests.

    Note for starters, the Bush/Obama interactions after latter's election, were very conscious counter-point to the less-than-positive welcome tendered to Bushies in 2001 by Clintonistas in West Wing, featuring snarky notes left on desks for the new team. And just as snarky publicizing of same by W's bunch.

    Hardly surprising following the 2000 election crisis, but hardly edifying either, on either side.

    Fast-forward to 2008, when W is leaving office with little left of his former popularity. And bad taste in his mouth from being 2nd-banana to Dick Cheney for eight years. Indeed, with Bush blaming his VP for the public souring on him and him.

    So W had every incentive to play nice. Especially methinks, since his daughter Jenna was embarking upon a media career, that continues to this day, as a regular on US morning TV.

    And also keep in mind, that the Bushes and Obamas belong, along with the Carters, to a VERY exclusive club: former POTUS and FLOTUS.

    A club from which Mr & Mrs Trump, despite their ostensible qualifications, have very clearly been blackballed.

    Whether it was serving their interests or not, good behaviour is still good behaviour and should be commended when it happens.

    I'd note one more difference between 2000 and 2008 that you hadn't noted. In 2008 not only was the election result itself hardly edifying but Clinton was probably quite disappointed his running mate lost.

    In 2008 on the other hand, Bush had no such connection or love for McCain, so his parties defeat was probably much less personal to him as he retired from politics than it had been for Bill Clinton.
    You may be overestimating the mutual esteem between Bill Clinton and Al Gore in 2000. Seeing as how the former blamed, with good reason, that the latter blamed the former for his razon-thin loss.
    While on other hand Bill believed Al was (almost) as politically inept as Hillary.

    As for your first point, concur.

    Though do note, that one of the secrets of Trump's political appeal, is that he does NOT play the Gracious Stateman game. Which increasing numbers of Americans - and not just MAGAmaniacs - have concluded is a con-game benefiting professional politicos. With the people as the saps holding the bag. Sad but true.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,403
    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
    You are wildly overstating the position. If you just said London's an unfriendly place compared to most other places in Britain, that would unfortunately be accurate.

    Edit: @OnlyLivingBoy - where do you count as the Southeast? I'd agree if you said London and the wider area around it, maybe 50 miles radius or something like that, is a relatively unfriendly place. London is friendlier than a few ultra-arsehole stockbroker-type places outside the official GL area I suppose.
    Sorry lived in the south east near london since 1987, just moved back to the south west. People in the south east are totally unfriendly in comparison and I put it mostly down to every day is a struggle fighting with the hordes of commuters and exorbitant housing costs. I am so more relaxed now I have moved away
    Oh defnitely. Even at university i found people from say Southampton or Exeter more friendly than those from near London.
    Oddly in among running into all these assholes all day I met two blokes just moved up here from London who said the same thing.

    Nice guys, we had a good chat. They'd bought some of my Dad's old furniture to furnish their new place and had come to collect it.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,033
    Octopus said:

    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    I'm afraid not.

    The LDs were severely burned by Coalition 1.0 with the Conservatives - I'm not even sure they'd go for C&S for a minority Labour Government.

    It'll be interesting if U&SR triggers any kind of polling revival for the Conservatives - Monday's Redfield & Wilton will be interesting.

    U&SR was probably a very hard ask for Labour given the solid nature of the local Conservative vote in the north part of Hillingdon. It's an example of both volatility and resilience and a reminder uniform UNS is as reliable as sub samples. We know there are areas where the Conservative vote is more resilient and these islands of Conservative strength ensure a) there can't be an extinction event for the party but b) there are other areas where a large majority doesn't mean security if that majority is built on sand.
    Also bear in mind indians are about 20% of the uxbridge constituency. There would likely be a fair proportion of that ethnic vote loyal to Sunak.
    I think this point can be overstated. Indian-heritage voters in the NW London suburbs have been trending Tory since well before Sunak was an MP.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,465

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    I expect an arrangement between them if LAB need it but I think it will be LD confidence and supply, no coalition or cabinet places.
    Ed Davey himself greatly enjoyed being a cabinet minister. Just saying.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,831
    Octopus said:

    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
    You are wildly overstating the position. If you just said London's an unfriendly place compared to most other places in Britain, that would unfortunately be accurate.
    I actually don't think even that is true anymore.
    Even northern cities vary in friendliness. I would say Newcastle is friendlier than leeds for example.
    As a rule of thumb*, villages are friendlier than towns and towns are friendlier than cities. Thus just about anywhere in the West Country is likely to be friendlier than London.

    (*There are exceptions: I have always found rural North Wales to be particularly unfriendly. Sorry but that's how it always seems to me.)
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,800
    ydoethur said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
    You are wildly overstating the position. If you just said London's an unfriendly place compared to most other places in Britain, that would unfortunately be accurate.

    Edit: @OnlyLivingBoy - where do you count as the Southeast? I'd agree if you said London and the wider area around it, maybe 50 miles radius or something like that, is a relatively unfriendly place. London is friendlier than a few ultra-arsehole stockbroker-type places outside the official GL area I suppose.
    Sorry lived in the south east near london since 1987, just moved back to the south west. People in the south east are totally unfriendly in comparison and I put it mostly down to every day is a struggle fighting with the hordes of commuters and exorbitant housing costs. I am so more relaxed now I have moved away
    Oh defnitely. Even at university i found people from say Southampton or Exeter more friendly than those from near London.
    Oddly in among running into all these assholes all day I met two blokes just moved up here from London who said the same thing.

    Nice guys, we had a good chat. They'd bought some of my Dad's old furniture to furnish their new place and had come to collect it.
    You will not meet a nicer man than a Londoner.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,403
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
    You are wildly overstating the position. If you just said London's an unfriendly place compared to most other places in Britain, that would unfortunately be accurate.

    Edit: @OnlyLivingBoy - where do you count as the Southeast? I'd agree if you said London and the wider area around it, maybe 50 miles radius or something like that, is a relatively unfriendly place. London is friendlier than a few ultra-arsehole stockbroker-type places outside the official GL area I suppose.
    Sorry lived in the south east near london since 1987, just moved back to the south west. People in the south east are totally unfriendly in comparison and I put it mostly down to every day is a struggle fighting with the hordes of commuters and exorbitant housing costs. I am so more relaxed now I have moved away
    Oh defnitely. Even at university i found people from say Southampton or Exeter more friendly than those from near London.
    Oddly in among running into all these assholes all day I met two blokes just moved up here from London who said the same thing.

    Nice guys, we had a good chat. They'd bought some of my Dad's old furniture to furnish their new place and had come to collect it.
    You will not meet a nicer man than a Londoner.
    Unless you ask him to pay cash, apparently.

    (By the way, did you see my reply to your question about France?)
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397
    EPG said:

    Octopus said:

    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour Majority is stonking value.

    It might not happen, but well, well over a 66% chance of happening.

    Unfortunately TMV means it might not be worth betting on so much though.

    Similarly laying Conservative most votes. That should be low single digits but at 10% inflation its not worth laying it.

    I agree. The blisteringly good Tory expectation management ahead of these by-elections has made yesterday seem like a bad day for Labour. In reality the Uxbridge swing of 6.7% would be enough to get Labour close to majority on the new boundaries even with no tactical voting or SNP unwind.
    I disagree, I think a Lab/LD coalition is very likely. Prepare for Ed Davey, deputy PM.
    I'm afraid not.

    The LDs were severely burned by Coalition 1.0 with the Conservatives - I'm not even sure they'd go for C&S for a minority Labour Government.

    It'll be interesting if U&SR triggers any kind of polling revival for the Conservatives - Monday's Redfield & Wilton will be interesting.

    U&SR was probably a very hard ask for Labour given the solid nature of the local Conservative vote in the north part of Hillingdon. It's an example of both volatility and resilience and a reminder uniform UNS is as reliable as sub samples. We know there are areas where the Conservative vote is more resilient and these islands of Conservative strength ensure a) there can't be an extinction event for the party but b) there are other areas where a large majority doesn't mean security if that majority is built on sand.
    Also bear in mind indians are about 20% of the uxbridge constituency. There would likely be a fair proportion of that ethnic vote loyal to Sunak.
    I think this point can be overstated. Indian-heritage voters in the NW London suburbs have been trending Tory since well before Sunak was an MP.
    They are one of the very richest racial groups mainly made up of business owners and property owners. If they are not voting Tory its time to pull down the tent.
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Octopus said:

    Peck said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Octopus said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    The question on everyone’s lips is really: what are we going to call the big smoke when it isn’t?

    The great wen
    Only Northerners call London The Big Smoke; only West Country folk call it The Great Wen. Since we established on the last thread that hardly anyone lives outside the South-East (so why do they have test matches?) it hardly matters.
    Well I live in the west country now. However I was trying to polite, I would have said the suppurating gangrenous pustule on britains arse.
    Hey! That's no way to describe the West Country - some parts of it are very nice.
    Well only described that way by people addicted to their fumes and who love living in close proximity with 8 million arseholes

    A true misanthrope as ever Pagan.

    8 million people, all arseholes? Really?
    They probably weren't till they moved to london then they learned to be. London seems to breed ill tempered nasty people.
    Really need to get you and Malc at each other in a hip hop battle at some stage.

    If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
    I dont run into them now I moved away from that place strangely and even the nice people I knew turned to the cockroaches of society when they moved to the Wen
    Cost of living and house prices in london likely big reason for this.
    Nods don't disagree, just like living in a prison for years changes your attitudes so does london because while the bars and locks aren't physically there they are still there in terms of cost of housing and living
    You are wildly overstating the position. If you just said London's an unfriendly place compared to most other places in Britain, that would unfortunately be accurate.
    I actually don't think even that is true anymore.
    Even northern cities vary in friendliness. I would say Newcastle is friendlier than leeds for example.
    As a rule of thumb*, villages are friendlier than towns and towns are friendlier than cities. Thus just about anywhere in the West Country is likely to be friendlier than London.

    (*There are exceptions: I have always found rural North Wales to be particularly unfriendly. Sorry but that's how it always seems to me.)
    Huge observation bias is inevitable here because lots of people who move country-city-village-whatever are changing role too - employed to retired or whatever. We need evidence from postmen or barmen or district nurses who have made the move but stayed in the same type of job.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,553
    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Corbyn is 114.56% likely to either win or not win a seat, then.

    The Corbyn family was of course on show in Uxbridge. Piers didn't do terribly well.

    Jeremy is of course going to have to test his mettle in the Mayoral run (He may not have worked this out himself yet, but it's blindingly obvious)
    Jeremy Corbyn should stand for parliament in Keir Starmer's seat. He might even win.
This discussion has been closed.