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Silence is not golden – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,713
edited July 2023 in General
imageSilence is not golden – politicalbetting.com

On 15 June 2022 the Mayor of London issued a refreshed version of his Violence Against Women and Girls Strategy 2022 – 2025. Despite its unfortunate title (does the Mayoral budget no longer run to proofreaders? Couldn’t the word “Reducing” have been shoehorned into the name?) the document and strategy are about reducing such violence, an admirable and necessary aim. The very first page makes it clear that its target is “the perpetrators of abuse and violence“. It states clearly “that violence starts with words, and we all have a responsibility to challenge the behaviour that can lead to violence and making women feel unsafe.”

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,302
    edited July 2023

    I'd drop Bairstow, Robinson and Ali

    Bring in Foakes, Anderson and Sam Curran

    Not Sam Curran. They are saying this years Duke's ball go soft after 25-30 overs and don't move too much. Hence the move to bang it in short for over after over come 30 overs. Sam Curran is neither fast enough or consistent enough to bowl when the ball isn't doing anything.
    He's a fine batsman, an excellent catcher and fielder, and he bowls well enough to take plenty of wickets in all formats. He'd be a handy option with Root doing the spin
    In white ball cricket yes, test cricket he averages less than Woakes. And for the past year or so, he has played masses of white ball and limited red ball.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,302
    edited July 2023

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quick question, I'm going to be abroad for the 4th and 5th Test. Guessing my NowTV subscription won't work overseas without using a VPN?

    And if so, can anyone recommend any VPNs? Preferably free.

    Pay up for NordVPN.
    Yes @BartholomewRoberts NowTV won't work abroad

    I have used ExpressVPN successfully for cricket/sport/drama all over the globe, tho the broadcasters are trying to fight back and thwart them, so you cannot entirely rely on it
    Our Now TV has stopped working because it thinks we are using a VPN even though we aren't! Something funny going on with our Internet provider.
    TV broadcasters in general have gotten better at clamping down on VPNs and illegal streaming
    Not on illegal streaming they haven't. They got special legal powers to in real time to demand UK ISPs to block IP of sites streaming EPL, but simple use of a VPN bypasses this.

    IPTV services are constantly been shut down, but a new one pops up straight away.
    Big jail sentences recently for some illegal streamers who made a fortune and were a weird mix of high and low tech.
    A bit like drug dealing, they rarely catch the top tier providers, normally located in countries that are difficult / impossible to prosecute in. Most that are busted are resellers or they buy channel packages from the top tier and package them together for specific markets e.g UK market doesn't want 100 Spanish language channels.
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    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Golly. This is just mass madness. I wasn't aware of Baker's background, but I do know that the Mermaids CEO had her son castrated on his sixteenth birthday. It's when what sound like insane 4chan smears turn out to be the literal and verifiable truth, that you start thinking there is a serious problem.
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    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Thanks for the header, kudos to the unflappability of posters who carry on the cricket convo as if nothing had happened.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688
    edited July 2023
    OT - It is generally the case that people are unable to weigh up the rights of two groups. This is particularly true of low level officialdom, where any attempt to exercise "personal judgement" is considered dangerous and unprofessional.

    So, it is impossible to have rights of two protected groups in opposition to each other. Since, this would require personal judgment, nuance, compromise. All of which are anathema.

    Therefore one group must be de-protected.

    The alternative would be requiring officials to think. Which is probably prosecutable as Misconduct In A Public Office.

    EDIT: Perhaps the "Violence Against Women and Girls Strategy 2022 – 2025." is actually in the spirit of the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad* of immortal fame

    *"By God, this Crime Squad is well-named!" - with apologies to Sir Harry Esson
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,426
    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quick question, I'm going to be abroad for the 4th and 5th Test. Guessing my NowTV subscription won't work overseas without using a VPN?

    And if so, can anyone recommend any VPNs? Preferably free.

    Pay up for NordVPN.
    Yes @BartholomewRoberts NowTV won't work abroad

    I have used ExpressVPN successfully for cricket/sport/drama all over the globe, tho the broadcasters are trying to fight back and thwart them, so you cannot entirely rely on it
    Our Now TV has stopped working because it thinks we are using a VPN even though we aren't! Something funny going on with our Internet provider.
    TV broadcasters in general have gotten better at clamping down on VPNs and illegal streaming
    Not on illegal streaming they haven't. They got special legal powers to in real time to demand UK ISPs to block IP of sites streaming EPL, but simple use of a VPN bypasses this.

    IPTV services are constantly been shut down, but a new one pops up straight away.
    Big jail sentences recently for some illegal streamers who made a fortune and were a weird mix of high and low tech.
    A bit like drug dealing, they rarely catch the top tier providers, normally located in countries that are difficult / impossible to prosecute in. Most that are busted are resellers or they buy channel packages from the top tier and package them together for specific markets e.g UK market doesn't want 100 Spanish language channels.
    The sad insanity is that the BBC had a golden moment with the coming of the internet. They could sell, world wide, at little cost in infrastructure, an immensely valuable brand.

    My guess is that the BBC could have funded its entire operations from non-UK citizens purchasing content - streaming subscriptions. Which would have ended the license fee *and* given political independence. "The BBC - free to all in the UK & independent". One hell of a pitch.
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    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,257
    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    Things often move quickly just before collapsing under the weight of their own contradictions.

    The more the public is learning about the crazier end of trans issues, the more they take against it.

    I pity ordinary trans people having to be represented by these raging weirdos.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,202
    edited July 2023
    At the end of the day for Khan to be re elected LGBT and trans activists in particular are a key part of his 'rainbow coalition.'

    With the Mayoral race in London next year under FPTP it is therefore vital for him he keeps them in his tent, especially given they are a significantly higher percentage of the London electorate compared to the UK electorate and that they don't drift off and vote Green for instance. Which would risk letting the Tory candidate in via the back door. So he won't do much on this
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    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing" used to be the rule (JS Mill btw). Now it's "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that elderly middle class whiteys should look on and say "oooh, I remember being right on in the 1970s and what fun it was, here's an issue I can look right on about without actually considering it in any depth at all, and relive those glory days."

    Apologies if I have misread your demographic. Even if I have, you do realise what sort of shit you have to do to get 30 years for torture? And do you think castrating 16 year old male gays in the only jurisdiction in the world which permitted, at the time, this terrible act is 1. good, 2. bad, or 3. one of those grey areas?
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    boulayboulay Posts: 4,020
    Good point well made. Thanks for writing the header.
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    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,706
    Another interesting opening piece from Ms Cyclefree. One which I would agree with, but then....

    One thing that I have noticed, especially abroad. There are women who put themselves in danger, and then expect to be rescued from their folly. They forget that other countries have different cultures, and they seem to think they can behave like they do in England, and get away with it.
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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,562
    edited July 2023
    On topic, I've always thought that a good test for deciding whether officials are acting unacceptably in cases like this is to fill in a different group, and imagine what would the officials would do if that group were threatened.

    So, for example, rather than threaten terfs with a punch in the face, what would the police reaction be if this thug had proposed punching:

    - gay activists
    - Jews
    - Muslims
    - men
    - blacks
    - whites?

    One can rarely be sure of the answer, but it can be a useful thought exercise.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,428
    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    I rarely if ever get involved in this debate, but if it upsets you just ignore it.

    Others will decide on how to address these issues anyway

    It is a controversial subject and @Cyclefree has as much right and respect on here to raise it
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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,562
    edited July 2023
    Off topic, I hear that China has mysteriously failed to publish statistics for the number of cremations in Q4 2022, when the Zero COVID policy embarassingly collapsed.

    Clearly the CCP believes that silence can be golden.

    Am I the only one who smells a rat the size of Tiananmen Square?
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,128
    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    So you are good with a speaker at a rally instructing their* followers to “punch someone in the f****** face”?

    (* no idea what they like to be called so this is neutral)
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,202
    edited July 2023
    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    "If you see a TERF, punch them in the f**king face."

    https://twitter.com/unpopulargenz/status/1677790606561628160
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,607

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    I rarely if ever get involved in this debate, but if it upsets you just ignore it.

    Others will decide on how to address these issues anyway

    It is a controversial subject and @Cyclefree has as much right and respect on here to raise it
    Exactly, and we should condemn the threat of violence, even if it was not intended seriously, although I am slightly uneasy with the idea that the Mayor is responsible. Do we demand Rishi Sunak apologise for pb Tories?
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,626
    Miklosvar said:

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing" used to be the rule (JS Mill btw). Now it's "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that elderly middle class whiteys should look on and say "oooh, I remember being right on in the 1970s and what fun it was, here's an issue I can look right on about without actually considering it in any depth at all, and relive those glory days."

    Apologies if I have misread your demographic. Even if I have, you do realise what sort of shit you have to do to get 30 years for torture? And do you think castrating 16 year old male gays in the only jurisdiction in the world which permitted, at the time, this terrible act is 1. good, 2. bad, or 3. one of those grey areas?
    The Mermaids ex-CEO who had her 16 year old son castrated on his 16th birthday, in Thailand, after years of putting him on vile drugs, actually mocked the size of her son's genitalia, before having them all chopped off

    She is a perverse and evil weirdo, who should be in jail doing ten years

    How we have allowed these Trans Radical Freaks to dominate our discourse will utterly puzzle future social historians. Twats like @Heathener will be referenced in a footnote saying "idiots like this, helped"
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,128

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    I rarely if ever get involved in this debate, but if it upsets you just ignore it.

    Others will decide on how to address these issues anyway

    It is a controversial subject and @Cyclefree has as much right and respect on here to raise it
    Exactly, and we should condemn the threat of violence, even if it was not intended seriously, although I am slightly uneasy with the idea that the Mayor is responsible. Do we demand Rishi Sunak apologise for pb Tories?
    @Cyclefree isn’t saying the Mayor is responsible (in fact she explicitly says he isn’t responsible)

    But she is - rightly - criticising his apparent double standards in condemning violence by men against women but saying nothing about this incitement by a trans activist to commit acts of violence against their political opponents
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,068
    Fishing said:

    On topic, I've always thought that a good test for deciding whether officials are acting unacceptably in cases like this is to fill in a different group, and imagine what would the officials would do if that group were threatened.

    So, for example, rather than threaten terfs with a punch in the face, what would the police reaction be if this thug had proposed punching:

    - gay activists
    - Jews
    - Muslims
    - men
    - blacks
    - whites?

    One can rarely be sure of the answer, but it can be a useful thought exercise.

    So-called "TERFs" are a political group, so it would be more comparable to a threat against, say, communists or liberals or fascists.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    I rarely if ever get involved in this debate, but if it upsets you just ignore it.

    Others will decide on how to address these issues anyway

    It is a controversial subject and @Cyclefree has as much right and respect on here to raise it
    Exactly, and we should condemn the threat of violence, even if it was not intended seriously, although I am slightly uneasy with the idea that the Mayor is responsible. Do we demand Rishi Sunak apologise for pb Tories?
    A public rally was held in London, permitted by the government. That makes it a public matter.

    PB is just some random wankers on the internets*.

    *I knows all the Twitters
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806
    Fishing said:

    Off topic, I hear that China has mysteriously failed to publish statistics for the number of cremations in Q4 2022, when the Zero COVID policy embarassingly collapsed.

    Clearly the CCP believes that silence can be golden.

    Am I the only one who smells a rat the size of Tiananmen Square?

    The Chinese are always going to be touchy on Covid. No matter what the answers might be they're not really going to be that interesting anyway. A pointless subject to pursue.

    Western journalist seem intent on engaging China with the rabid dog mentality that they use at home. It's just the wrong way of engaging with the Chinese. It's also a piss-poor way of engaging with anyone.
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    PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    It's always "terfs" the hatred is directed against, isn't it? Never against males who share the same views as the terfs. Or is the assumption that other men will look the other way when men who belong to the trans cult batter their way into women's toilets and beat up any women who don't want them there?

    Pedantic postscript @Cyclefree - that would be copy editing not proofreading.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688
    EPG said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, I've always thought that a good test for deciding whether officials are acting unacceptably in cases like this is to fill in a different group, and imagine what would the officials would do if that group were threatened.

    So, for example, rather than threaten terfs with a punch in the face, what would the police reaction be if this thug had proposed punching:

    - gay activists
    - Jews
    - Muslims
    - men
    - blacks
    - whites?

    One can rarely be sure of the answer, but it can be a useful thought exercise.

    So-called "TERFs" are a political group, so it would be more comparable to a threat against, say, communists or liberals or fascists.
    Though, often, a group described by their enemies. As in “X is a TERF heretic. Burn her.”
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,202
    EPG said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, I've always thought that a good test for deciding whether officials are acting unacceptably in cases like this is to fill in a different group, and imagine what would the officials would do if that group were threatened.

    So, for example, rather than threaten terfs with a punch in the face, what would the police reaction be if this thug had proposed punching:

    - gay activists
    - Jews
    - Muslims
    - men
    - blacks
    - whites?

    One can rarely be sure of the answer, but it can be a useful thought exercise.

    So-called "TERFs" are a political group, so it would be more comparable to a threat against, say, communists or liberals or fascists.
    The term basically applies to any woman who finds the idea that "transwomen are women" problematic.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806

    EPG said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, I've always thought that a good test for deciding whether officials are acting unacceptably in cases like this is to fill in a different group, and imagine what would the officials would do if that group were threatened.

    So, for example, rather than threaten terfs with a punch in the face, what would the police reaction be if this thug had proposed punching:

    - gay activists
    - Jews
    - Muslims
    - men
    - blacks
    - whites?

    One can rarely be sure of the answer, but it can be a useful thought exercise.

    So-called "TERFs" are a political group, so it would be more comparable to a threat against, say, communists or liberals or fascists.
    The term basically applies to any woman who finds the idea that "transwomen are women" problematic.
    So what are 'terfs'? Terribly educated refugees from France?
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,626
    EPG said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, I've always thought that a good test for deciding whether officials are acting unacceptably in cases like this is to fill in a different group, and imagine what would the officials would do if that group were threatened.

    So, for example, rather than threaten terfs with a punch in the face, what would the police reaction be if this thug had proposed punching:

    - gay activists
    - Jews
    - Muslims
    - men
    - blacks
    - whites?

    One can rarely be sure of the answer, but it can be a useful thought exercise.

    So-called "TERFs" are a political group, so it would be more comparable to a threat against, say, communists or liberals or fascists.
    TERFs are not a political group, they are a bunch of mainly gender critical feminists, who are specfically identifed as TERFs by their enemies

    It's more like saying, if you see any "Jewish currency manipulators, kick them in the fucking eyes", or if you see any "middle class Just Stop Oil wankers, cut off their hands"

    It is an incitement to violence against a very specific group YOU have conjured up and then identified as worthy of hate

    It's certainly a lot worse than some of the stuff that generates police action on Twitter; especially coming from this creep
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,202

    Leon said:

    Twitter has come up with an answer as to the identity of the suspended BBC broadcaster

    I shall not trouble the mods by writing down the name! Seek and ye shall find, as it says in the Mabinogion

    I think twitter have named every BBC presenter over the past day.
    Indeed, potentially multiple lawyers letters going out to some tweeters too
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,068
    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, I've always thought that a good test for deciding whether officials are acting unacceptably in cases like this is to fill in a different group, and imagine what would the officials would do if that group were threatened.

    So, for example, rather than threaten terfs with a punch in the face, what would the police reaction be if this thug had proposed punching:

    - gay activists
    - Jews
    - Muslims
    - men
    - blacks
    - whites?

    One can rarely be sure of the answer, but it can be a useful thought exercise.

    So-called "TERFs" are a political group, so it would be more comparable to a threat against, say, communists or liberals or fascists.
    TERFs are not a political group, they are a bunch of mainly gender critical feminists, who are specfically identifed as TERFs by their enemies

    It's more like saying, if you see any "Jewish currency manipulators, kick them in the fucking eyes", or if you see any "middle class Just Stop Oil wankers, cut off their hands"

    It is an incitement to violence against a very specific group YOU have conjured up and then identified as worthy of hate

    It's certainly a lot worse than some of the stuff that generates police action on Twitter; especially coming from this creep
    It's not like saying someone is Jewish, since there are STRONG protections for discrimination and violence on ethnic and religious bases even when public order as such is not in jeopardy. It IS like the Just Stop Oil example. Political points of view are specifically offered less protection under the law, presumably because we don't want prosecutions every time someone says "kill all hippies" or the like. It is also somewhat like the recent example of the Man Utd "fan" whose shirt mocked or indeed praised the deaths of Liverpool fans.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,213
    97 NOT ENOUGH

    That’s all that needs to be said to the Met on this matter.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806
    Ok, so I looked up 'terf' - ridiculous.

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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,626
    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, I've always thought that a good test for deciding whether officials are acting unacceptably in cases like this is to fill in a different group, and imagine what would the officials would do if that group were threatened.

    So, for example, rather than threaten terfs with a punch in the face, what would the police reaction be if this thug had proposed punching:

    - gay activists
    - Jews
    - Muslims
    - men
    - blacks
    - whites?

    One can rarely be sure of the answer, but it can be a useful thought exercise.

    So-called "TERFs" are a political group, so it would be more comparable to a threat against, say, communists or liberals or fascists.
    TERFs are not a political group, they are a bunch of mainly gender critical feminists, who are specfically identifed as TERFs by their enemies

    It's more like saying, if you see any "Jewish currency manipulators, kick them in the fucking eyes", or if you see any "middle class Just Stop Oil wankers, cut off their hands"

    It is an incitement to violence against a very specific group YOU have conjured up and then identified as worthy of hate

    It's certainly a lot worse than some of the stuff that generates police action on Twitter; especially coming from this creep
    It's not like saying someone is Jewish, since there are STRONG protections for discrimination and violence on ethnic and religious bases even when public order as such is not in jeopardy. It IS like the Just Stop Oil example. Political points of view are specifically offered less protection under the law, presumably because we don't want prosecutions every time someone says "kill all hippies" or the like. It is also somewhat like the recent example of the Man Utd "fan" whose shirt mocked or indeed praised the deaths of Liverpool fans.
    No, I didn't just say Stop Oil people, I said "like the middle class Just Stop Oil wankers" - that would be much more specific, pejorative, aggressive, and clearly identifying of particular people, like "TERF"

    Frankly, you shouldn't be allowed to publicly demand that ANYONE be "punched in the fucking face" through a megaphone in Trafalgar Square. It's a clear incitement to violence
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    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    HYUFD said:


    Albeit their identity will become likely clearer anyway after a week or 2 of working out which presenter is no longer presenting in their usual BBC slot

    Bad news if you just happen to be on holiday for a few weeks at the same time.
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,614
    edited July 2023
    I think that the last paragraph of the erudite header is somewhat harsh on the Mayor. His silence (if indeed he is, and remains, silent) obviously does not indicate that he agrees with the rather obnoxious speaker at the rally. Indeed, I'm absolutely sure that Khan condemns any calls to violence on the streets of London, be it against 'terfs', JSO protestors, ER or whoever. But it's special pleading to expect him to comment on this case specifically among the myriad of unpleasantry that must cross his desk every day.

    Dealing with the law is the Met's job (yes, I know).
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688
    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Fishing said:

    On topic, I've always thought that a good test for deciding whether officials are acting unacceptably in cases like this is to fill in a different group, and imagine what would the officials would do if that group were threatened.

    So, for example, rather than threaten terfs with a punch in the face, what would the police reaction be if this thug had proposed punching:

    - gay activists
    - Jews
    - Muslims
    - men
    - blacks
    - whites?

    One can rarely be sure of the answer, but it can be a useful thought exercise.

    So-called "TERFs" are a political group, so it would be more comparable to a threat against, say, communists or liberals or fascists.
    TERFs are not a political group, they are a bunch of mainly gender critical feminists, who are specfically identifed as TERFs by their enemies

    It's more like saying, if you see any "Jewish currency manipulators, kick them in the fucking eyes", or if you see any "middle class Just Stop Oil wankers, cut off their hands"

    It is an incitement to violence against a very specific group YOU have conjured up and then identified as worthy of hate

    It's certainly a lot worse than some of the stuff that generates police action on Twitter; especially coming from this creep
    It's not like saying someone is Jewish, since there are STRONG protections for discrimination and violence on ethnic and religious bases even when public order as such is not in jeopardy. It IS like the Just Stop Oil example. Political points of view are specifically offered less protection under the law, presumably because we don't want prosecutions every time someone says "kill all hippies" or the like. It is also somewhat like the recent example of the Man Utd "fan" whose shirt mocked or indeed praised the deaths of Liverpool fans.
    No, I didn't just say Stop Oil people, I said "like the middle class Just Stop Oil wankers" - that would be much more specific, pejorative, aggressive, and clearly identifying of particular people, like "TERF"

    Frankly, you shouldn't be allowed to publicly demand that ANYONE be "punched in the fucking face" through a megaphone in Trafalgar Square. It's a clear incitement to violence
    But what if they are Really Bad People I Don’t Like? Surely the law doesn’t apply to that?
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878
    edited July 2023
    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    It is instructive to see you see identify with a torturer, who makes threats towards women.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688
    Cyclefree said:

    TERFS is a meaningless word used by people who do not want to engage with those who raise questions about gender ideology and what it means, especially for sex-based rights.

    Or if you prefer

    Tired of
    Explaining
    Reality to
    Fuckwits

    Or

    They
    Even
    Read the
    Flaming
    Statute (the Equality Act)

    I'll tell you when I first became really interested in this topic. When in July 2021 an English court ruled in the FDJ case that it was legal to house a man, who felt he was a woman and had a gender recognition certificate, in a women’s prison despite him raping a woman prisoner, despite the risk of rape and despite the fear that this would cause women. In 2021 in England - in a country that likes to think of itself as civilised - rape, the fear of it are an acceptable price for a woman to pay to accommodate a man’s feelings.

    This is a human rights cause, apparently. It is bigoted to oppose it. The idea that a man who thinks he is a woman could be protected from attacks on him/her in a man’s prison with men doing the accommodating is not even up for discussion.

    Those women in prison are the most marginalised and vulnerable community around. They do not even have the vote. International conventions say that women should have separate prisons. It is what Elizabeth Fry campaigned for. But no - women must endure rape, attacks, verbal abuse, threats of these because their safety and peace of mind and dignity and privacy do not matter next to a man's feelings.

    Fuck that. Fuck the idea that dangerous ex-prisoners can go round threatening women because they dare disagree with what men demand. Fuck the idea that police forces and Mayors and politicians can ignore this while pumping out pointless self-congratulatory strategies and meaningless words. Fuck those who think that lobby groups campaigning for the last 8 years to remove existing legal rights for women are civil rights campaigners.

    Indeed.

    It is noteworthy that improving conditions in women’s prisons was a very early example of the modern liberal tradition of applying consideration and rights *even to Bad People*. Because they are… us.

    Almost as if it is a worldview that includes all humans as equally valuable, morally. Or something.

  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,802
    Evening all.

    @Cyclefree - thank-you the header.

    Catching up with the local news, as medical treatment winds down for a week or two, and apologies if this one has been done.

    Ashfield may become a two-way rather than three-way competition for the next General Election, since Jason Zadrozny (Council Leader) has been charged with a whole suite of offences around fraud and tax evasion (going back to 2007) plus a possession of Class A drugs charge, and Tom Hollis (former Deputy Council Leader) has also been charged with offences around failing to declare a pecuniary interest.

    It is an active investigation, so I'll just provide a link.
    https://nottstv.com/ashfield-district-council-leader-jason-zadrozny-faces-fraud-and-drug-charges/

    (At the last County election this spring, Hollis lost half his vote from approx 40% to under 20% but just beat Labour, and Zadrozny increased his from approx 50% to 63%.)
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    I rarely if ever get involved in this debate, but if it upsets you just ignore it.

    Others will decide on how to address these issues anyway

    It is a controversial subject and @Cyclefree has as much right and respect on here to raise it
    Exactly, and we should condemn the threat of violence, even if it was not intended seriously, although I am slightly uneasy with the idea that the Mayor is responsible. Do we demand Rishi Sunak apologise for pb Tories?
    Given that the bloke in question is a torturer, yes, I think it's the sort of threat one should take seriously.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688
    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    It is instructive to see you see identify with a torturer, who makes threats towards women.
    “The Propaganda of the Deed” - the essentially fascist outlook, that violence is the best political message.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,335

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    That’s right, stifle debate, only the ‘correct’ views shall be held…
    Has some rando moaning about a view expressed here or on the wider internet by some other rando ever stopped it being expressed, or is this now the accepted definition of stifling debate?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    It is instructive to see you see identify with a torturer, who makes threats towards women.
    “The Propaganda of the Deed” - the essentially fascist outlook, that violence is the best political message.
    The internet is full of wannabee fascists.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878
    Omnium said:

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
    Wilde, Turing, Joseph Merrick...
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688
    edited July 2023
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    It is instructive to see you see identify with a torturer, who makes threats towards women.
    “The Propaganda of the Deed” - the essentially fascist outlook, that violence is the best political message.
    The internet is full of wannabee fascists.
    Yup.

    Edit: and the loop where they radicalise by listening to ever more extreme voices online… and then enter the real world with their hate is well known, and studied. See Prevent…
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    Omnium said:

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
    Wilde, Turing, Joseph Merrick...
    Wilde would actually go to jail today, for his actions.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    edited July 2023
    I know this is probably a stupid post but I'll try it anyway and see whether any replies ripping it to shreds instantly prove to me beyond reasonable doubt *why* it is stupid.

    If (hypothetically) you change most gender-based rights to become entirely sex-based rights instead, but simultaneously make gender recognition/change easier, can you protect biological women's rights whilst also allowing for what seems like entirely reasonable potential for people to choose the gender that best fits them?

    e.g. evil trans rapist still has to go to men's prison because sex = male even if self-identifying as female whilst at the same time we are not stopping people who reasonably wish to identify as their preferred gender from quietly living out the lives they are entitled to?

    Given that most trans people aren't rapists, it seems reasonable to say we need to find some middle path that clearly protects biological women without demonising everyone who wants to identify differently, regardless of exactly how far they take that transition.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806

    Omnium said:

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
    Wilde, Turing, Joseph Merrick...
    Sure. You know of these people only because they had the latitude to flourish. That they weren't allowed to progress is awful.
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,972
    FPT :
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quick question, I'm going to be abroad for the 4th and 5th Test. Guessing my NowTV subscription won't work overseas without using a VPN?

    And if so, can anyone recommend any VPNs? Preferably free.

    Pay up for NordVPN.
    Or roll your own for free on Amazon AWS, but that is a fair amount of hassle.
    https://github.com/trailofbits/algo Algo takes quite a lot of the hassle away. Though these days I just use Mullvad. We still use Algo for a tunnel into $work though.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878
    Re Opinium. Rather amusing to see Tories clutching at the straws of poll that puts them only 15% behind Labour :-)
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
    Wilde, Turing, Joseph Merrick...
    Wilde would actually go to jail today, for his actions.
    Not so. The evidence of paedophilia is much stronger against Turing than against Wilde.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688

    I know this is probably a stupid post but I'll try it anyway and see whether any replies ripping it to shreds instantly prove to me beyond reasonable doubt *why* it is stupid.

    If (hypothetically) you change most gender-based rights to become entirely sex-based rights instead, but simultaneously make gender recognition/change easier, can you protect biological women's rights whilst also allowing for what seems like entirely reasonable potential for people to choose the gender that best fits them?

    e.g. evil trans rapist still has to go to men's prison because sex = male even if self-identifying as female whilst at the same time we are not stopping people who reasonably wish to identify as their preferred gender from quietly living out the lives they are entitled to?

    Given that most trans people aren't rapists, it seems reasonable to say we need to find some middle path that clearly protects biological women without demonising everyone who wants to identify differently, regardless of exactly how far they take that transition.

    That sounds dangerously like an an attempt at compromise based on logic and compassion.

    What kind of Woke Vegan policy is it, that doesn’t create a group to hate and demand violence against?
  • Options
    Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 596
    Michael Sheen now overwhelming favourite to become future Welsh President/Tywysog
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,213
    Crowd booing Azarenka was a bit off.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688
    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
    Wilde, Turing, Joseph Merrick...
    Wilde would actually go to jail today, for his actions.
    And destroyed himself, at the insistence of a ghastly… friend, by going to court (un-necessarily) to perjure himself on a grand scale.
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,972

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    It is instructive to see you see identify with a torturer, who makes threats towards women.
    “The Propaganda of the Deed” - the essentially fascist outlook, that violence is the best political message.
    The internet is full of wannabee fascists.
    Yup.

    Edit: and the loop where they radicalise by listening to ever more extreme voices online… and then enter the real world with their hate is well known, and studied. See Prevent…
    Over winter I was watching quite a few 'how to make your own pickles' kinda videos. And my 'recommended' feed was also filling up with increasingly weird alt-right/conspiracy content no matter how many times I clicked 'not interested' or 'don't recommend'.

    Turns out the crossover (in youtube terms at least) between 'make some pickles' -> 'want to be self sufficient' -> 'homesteader' -> 'bonkers alt-right maga' is quite high.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644
    Until recently, the only person who had access to the number of Impressions of a tweet was the account owner.

    Now it is on the face of the tweet.

    Libel claimants will have a much easier time pleading 'serious harm' pre-disclosure, esp vs accounts with smaller follower numbers.


    https://twitter.com/Greg_Callus/status/1678043282700468224
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,880
    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    I think Foxjr2 was at Transpride yesterday with his flatmate who is mtf trans, and a friend since they were in beavers together.

    People wanting to support Trans people at a time when transphobia is epidemic, and at least tacitly supported by the government should still be happy and willing to condemn incitement to violence.

    Liberating one group should never require oppressing another one.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,976
    Cyclefree said:

    TERFS is a meaningless word used by people who do not want to engage with those who raise questions about gender ideology and what it means, especially for sex-based rights.

    Or if you prefer

    Tired of
    Explaining
    Reality to
    Fuckwits

    Or

    They
    Even
    Read the
    Flaming
    Statute (the Equality Act)

    I'll tell you when I first became really interested in this topic. When in July 2021 an English court ruled in the FDJ case that it was legal to house a man, who felt he was a woman and had a gender recognition certificate, in a women’s prison despite him raping a woman prisoner, despite the risk of rape and despite the fear that this would cause women. In 2021 in England - in a country that likes to think of itself as civilised - rape, the fear of it are an acceptable price for a woman to pay to accommodate a man’s feelings.

    This is a human rights cause, apparently. It is bigoted to oppose it. The idea that a man who thinks he is a woman could be protected from attacks on him/her in a man’s prison with men doing the accommodating is not even up for discussion.

    Those women in prison are the most marginalised and vulnerable community around. They do not even have the vote. International conventions say that women should have separate prisons. It is what Elizabeth Fry campaigned for. But no - women must endure rape, attacks, verbal abuse, threats of these because their safety and peace of mind and dignity and privacy do not matter next to a man's feelings.

    Fuck that. Fuck the idea that dangerous ex-prisoners can go round threatening women because they dare disagree with what men demand. Fuck the idea that police forces and Mayors and politicians can ignore this while pumping out pointless self-congratulatory strategies and meaningless words. Fuck those who think that lobby groups campaigning for the last 8 years to remove existing legal rights for women are civil rights campaigners.

    I guess we put you down as a maybe?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644
    Good Lord, I've just watched Damian Lewis singing the national anthem at Silverstone.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644
    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    If you're happy to write a rebuttal/counter argument I'm sure OGH will publish it.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623

    Good Lord, I've just watched Damian Lewis singing the national anthem at Silverstone.

    Oh, that's good that you say that. I saw that a few hours ago and assumed I was having some sort of breakdown.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    I think Foxjr2 was at Transpride yesterday with his flatmate who is mtf trans, and a friend since they were in beavers together.

    People wanting to support Trans people at a time when transphobia is epidemic, and at least tacitly supported by the government should still be happy and willing to condemn incitement to violence.

    Liberating one group should never require oppressing another one.
    But how would one win Gold at the Oppression Olympics without someone to oppress?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,873
    Omnium said:

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
    I do miss the (admittedly imperfect) 1990s dictum of live and let live, replaced by the ideological bigotry of the Twitter extremes.

    Quite why trans issues have become suddenly so highly charged despite - as far as I can tell - the numbers involved remaining tiny is, I think, both a mystery and perhaps not a mystery. The bloody internet amplifies both the trans rights extremists and the noisy worriers, at the expense of the live and let livers.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,335

    Good Lord, I've just watched Damian Lewis singing the national anthem at Silverstone.

    Oh, that's good that you say that. I saw that a few hours ago and assumed I was having some sort of breakdown.
    At how profoundly moving it was, or the other thing?
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,972
    ohnotnow said:

    FPT :

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quick question, I'm going to be abroad for the 4th and 5th Test. Guessing my NowTV subscription won't work overseas without using a VPN?

    And if so, can anyone recommend any VPNs? Preferably free.

    Pay up for NordVPN.
    Or roll your own for free on Amazon AWS, but that is a fair amount of hassle.
    https://github.com/trailofbits/algo Algo takes quite a lot of the hassle away. Though these days I just use Mullvad. We still use Algo for a tunnel into $work though.
    Just as a further thought (for the geeks) we're looking to transition to https://goteleport.com/ . Especially after what's happened to Manchester/UWS lately.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,607
    Ironically, the only person I know who did complain to the police of a violent threat is a post-op trans woman. The man making the threat would not have known she was trans.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623

    Good Lord, I've just watched Damian Lewis singing the national anthem at Silverstone.

    Oh, that's good that you say that. I saw that a few hours ago and assumed I was having some sort of breakdown.
    At how profoundly moving it was, or the other thing?
    It just seemed for a couple of minutes as if reality was a bit off, or I'd switched universes, but apparently it did happen so all good.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644

    Good Lord, I've just watched Damian Lewis singing the national anthem at Silverstone.

    Oh, that's good that you say that. I saw that a few hours ago and assumed I was having some sort of breakdown.
    For anyone who hasn't heard it.

    https://twitter.com/CalvLyfeson/status/1678083011642785792
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,880
    edited July 2023

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    I think Foxjr2 was at Transpride yesterday with his flatmate who is mtf trans, and a friend since they were in beavers together.

    People wanting to support Trans people at a time when transphobia is epidemic, and at least tacitly supported by the government should still be happy and willing to condemn incitement to violence.

    Liberating one group should never require oppressing another one.
    But how would one win Gold at the Oppression Olympics without someone to oppress?
    I have no idea what you are talking about.

    The vast majority of transfolk merely want acceptance and to quietly get on with their lives. @Cyclefree even supports Trans pride in her header, simply wanting incitement to violence taken seriously, and for certain sex based rights to be protected.
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,809

    Until recently, the only person who had access to the number of Impressions of a tweet was the account owner.

    Now it is on the face of the tweet.

    Libel claimants will have a much easier time pleading 'serious harm' pre-disclosure, esp vs accounts with smaller follower numbers.


    https://twitter.com/Greg_Callus/status/1678043282700468224

    At least three people who were named are taking legal action. God knows how many will in the end. Kerching for the lawyers!
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    Miklosvar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
    Wilde, Turing, Joseph Merrick...
    Wilde would actually go to jail today, for his actions.
    Not so. The evidence of paedophilia is much stronger against Turing than against Wilde.
    That may or may not be so, but it is a crime to pay under 18's, either male or female, for sex.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878
    edited July 2023
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
    Wilde, Turing, Joseph Merrick...
    Sure. You know of these people only because they had the latitude to flourish. That they weren't allowed to progress is awful.
    Bizarre post.

    Wilde and Turing flourished due to their extreme talents... and were subsequently persecuted because of their sexuality (arguably moreso because of they were talented than if they had not been). Both had their careers and lives blighted because of their homosexuality. Undoubtedly, many homosexuals who might be better known are not because their progress was stymied.

    In what sense you think Joseph Merrick had 'the latitude to flourish' is beyond me. Unless you consider being made an object of public curiosity is flourishing.

    The consider all the 'odd' women from before about 1850 who wanted to be scientists, engineers, doctors, or lawyers, or even simply study for a degree. How well did British society treat them?
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Did the writer of this piece contact the Mayor's office for a comment?

    I think if you're demanding in an article that someone make a comment about an event yesterday, you should at least make that effort.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,335

    Good Lord, I've just watched Damian Lewis singing the national anthem at Silverstone.

    Oh, that's good that you say that. I saw that a few hours ago and assumed I was having some sort of breakdown.
    For anyone who hasn't heard it.

    https://twitter.com/CalvLyfeson/status/1678083011642785792
    Fuc
    Knh
    Ell

    And a saxophone!
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
    Wilde, Turing, Joseph Merrick...
    Wilde would actually go to jail today, for his actions.
    And destroyed himself, at the insistence of a ghastly… friend, by going to court (un-necessarily) to perjure himself on a grand scale.
    Bosie was a piece of scum.
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,809
    edited July 2023
    Bloody hell, Leon is banned! Please don't tell me he named the person :disappointed:

  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    CatMan said:

    Please don't tell me Leon named the person :disappointed:

    Lord knows. He keeps getting himself in bother like this. I don't know why they keep letting him back.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644
    No more discussions of the identity of the BBC presenter.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,666
    edited July 2023
    CatMan said:

    Bloody hell, Leon is banned! Please don't tell me he named the person :disappointed:

    Deleted
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878
    Farooq said:

    CatMan said:

    Please don't tell me Leon named the person :disappointed:

    Lord knows. He keeps getting himself in bother like this. I don't know why they keep letting him back.
    It's easier to keep track of him as Leon; when he used to keep coming back with a new ID, life got very confusing.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,052
    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    Most of Britain is with Cyclefree on this issue.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Until recently, the only person who had access to the number of Impressions of a tweet was the account owner.

    Now it is on the face of the tweet.

    Libel claimants will have a much easier time pleading 'serious harm' pre-disclosure, esp vs accounts with smaller follower numbers.


    https://twitter.com/Greg_Callus/status/1678043282700468224

    This is all very interesting, but proving who, if anyone, genuinely saw the "impressions" is quite another matter. Bots/automated account surely affect those numbers, perhaps profoundly.
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,666

    No more discussions of the identity of the BBC presenter.

    Turns out silence IS golden 🤭
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,607
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
    Wilde, Turing, Joseph Merrick...
    Wilde would actually go to jail today, for his actions.
    And destroyed himself, at the insistence of a ghastly… friend, by going to court (un-necessarily) to perjure himself on a grand scale.
    Bosie was a piece of scum.
    Winchester and Oxford. I wonder if his mum ran a pharmacy.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,704

    Good Lord, I've just watched Damian Lewis singing the national anthem at Silverstone.

    Oh, that's good that you say that. I saw that a few hours ago and assumed I was having some sort of breakdown.
    For anyone who hasn't heard it.

    https://twitter.com/CalvLyfeson/status/1678083011642785792
    Jesus.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,607
    OT ITV now A Spy Among Friends about Kim Philby is brilliant imo.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,052
    FPT
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quick question, I'm going to be abroad for the 4th and 5th Test. Guessing my NowTV subscription won't work overseas without using a VPN?

    And if so, can anyone recommend any VPNs? Preferably free.

    Pay up for NordVPN.
    Yes @BartholomewRoberts NowTV won't work abroad

    I have used ExpressVPN successfully for cricket/sport/drama all over the globe, tho the broadcasters are trying to fight back and thwart them, so you cannot entirely rely on it
    Our Now TV has stopped working because it thinks we are using a VPN even though we aren't! Something funny going on with our Internet provider.
    TV broadcasters in general have gotten better at clamping down on VPNs and illegal streaming
    Gotten? Let's not use Americanisms please.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    I think Foxjr2 was at Transpride yesterday with his flatmate who is mtf trans, and a friend since they were in beavers together.

    People wanting to support Trans people at a time when transphobia is epidemic, and at least tacitly supported by the government should still be happy and willing to condemn incitement to violence.

    Liberating one group should never require oppressing another one.
    But how would one win Gold at the Oppression Olympics without someone to oppress?
    I have no idea what you are talking about.

    The vast majority of transfolk merely want acceptance and to quietly get on with their lives. @Cyclefree even supports Trans pride in her header, simply wanting incitement to violence taken seriously, and for certain sex based rights to be protected.
    I was lampooning the call to extremism, bigotry and violence. To hear some tell it, without those, they are lost.

    Perhaps if you read the back numbers of the Portadown News (sadly defunct), you will understand.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,039
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Jeez Cyclefree at it again on trans issues.

    Move on. Britain is.

    I think Foxjr2 was at Transpride yesterday with his flatmate who is mtf trans, and a friend since they were in beavers together.

    People wanting to support Trans people at a time when transphobia is epidemic, and at least tacitly supported by the government should still be happy and willing to condemn incitement to violence.

    Liberating one group should never require oppressing another one.
    Beaver scouts one hopes?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878

    OT ITV now A Spy Among Friends about Kim Philby is brilliant imo.

    Thanks - we're recording* it.

    (*For the youngsters among you that's a bit like streaming on demand but we'll be able fast forward through the ads.)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,688
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Thanks @Cyclefree for yet another well-written header. I confess, however, that this whole subject leaves me stone cold.

    I have sympathy for trans people who have been treated very badly by society in the past. I have sympathy for women who fear that there are men who would pretend to be trans to perpetrate further offences agains women. I have sympathy for children who are wrongly persuaded they need to change gender and I have sympathy for children who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    For all those people I can see that this is a very important topic, but for the country as a whole, not so much.

    I have known two people who transitioned, one through work another socially. Both transitioned to women. For both it was clearly an extremely difficult and brave path to follow. Beyond that, I have no knowledge. It's not a debate I can join in. So forgive me if I post comments on other topics as they get discussed in the thread.

    British society has always treated the 'odd' quite well. An imperfect scheme, but not to be ignored.
    Wilde, Turing, Joseph Merrick...
    Wilde would actually go to jail today, for his actions.
    And destroyed himself, at the insistence of a ghastly… friend, by going to court (un-necessarily) to perjure himself on a grand scale.
    Bosie was a piece of scum.
    Promoting the publication of The Protocols of The Elders of Zion is quite indicative, isn’t it?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644
    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quick question, I'm going to be abroad for the 4th and 5th Test. Guessing my NowTV subscription won't work overseas without using a VPN?

    And if so, can anyone recommend any VPNs? Preferably free.

    Pay up for NordVPN.
    Yes @BartholomewRoberts NowTV won't work abroad

    I have used ExpressVPN successfully for cricket/sport/drama all over the globe, tho the broadcasters are trying to fight back and thwart them, so you cannot entirely rely on it
    Our Now TV has stopped working because it thinks we are using a VPN even though we aren't! Something funny going on with our Internet provider.
    TV broadcasters in general have gotten better at clamping down on VPNs and illegal streaming
    Gotten? Let's not use Americanisms please.
    But gotten is a word from Middle English times.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,039
    edited July 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quick question, I'm going to be abroad for the 4th and 5th Test. Guessing my NowTV subscription won't work overseas without using a VPN?

    And if so, can anyone recommend any VPNs? Preferably free.

    Pay up for NordVPN.
    Yes @BartholomewRoberts NowTV won't work abroad

    I have used ExpressVPN successfully for cricket/sport/drama all over the globe, tho the broadcasters are trying to fight back and thwart them, so you cannot entirely rely on it
    Our Now TV has stopped working because it thinks we are using a VPN even though we aren't! Something funny going on with our Internet provider.
    TV broadcasters in general have gotten better at clamping down on VPNs and illegal streaming
    Gotten? Let's not use Americanisms please.
    But gotten is a word from Middle English times.
    Not posh though. Apparently.
This discussion has been closed.