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Conservative losses: Just how low could the Tories go? – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm wondering about a perhaps underdiscussed element of housing supply - the Barrett building site I drive past each morning, it well.. hasn't exactly looked chock full of builders recently.
    I have no idea how long a site should take to complete though.
    See the gaming of start and completion dates…
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm wondering about a perhaps underdiscussed element of housing supply - the Barrett building site I drive past each morning, it well.. hasn't exactly looked chock full of builders recently.
    I have no idea how long a site should take to complete though.
    Agree with that. I've seen a lot of developments that take an inordinate amount of time to complete, with little work being evident.

    One of the NIMBY objections is the disruption caused by new building. I suspect that quicker completion of projects would help to reduce objections to them. Nobody likes living adjacent to a building site for years.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,961
    edited June 2023
    HYUFD said:

    On current Holyrood polls the SCons will have the balance of power between SNP and Labour and the LDs in 2026
    If there has to be an instructive loss of being the governing party for the SNP at Holyrood, I can’t think of a more helpful interregnum than one of SLab being propped up by the SCons. SLab and Anas aren’t that bright, but even I don’t think they would be that self destructively moronic.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,505
    edited June 2023
    On topic: a combination of slightly elevated tactical voting (it's never perfect), stay at homes and possible low vote share means the base is very low, sub 1997 numbers, but I'm don't expect below 100.

    The unasked question is 'is it existential'. Let's put some hypothetical markets up.

    Party of PM after next change of party (main identified direct legal successors count):
    At the moment you'd say Labour are 1/50 or tighter on this - no voting system change likely under Con and even if they blow 2024 they are not going back to Corbynism.

    Even back during the worst of Corbynism this was probably a 1/20 shot, we have only had a couple of times since PMs existed of non alternation, and all the calls of "Labour are finished" seemed hyperbolic.

    So, go forward to 2024 and assume for a minute PM Starmer. How does that look?

    The Tories could well take some ideologically narrow and fringe turns, Labour could well look at voting reform and that could spin out parties. And either the right or the centre could be that split. But the voting bloc for a centre right party remains, and it might take a while for proportional politics to fully mature. A lot of ifs, but I'd still have the Tories tighter than 1/12 to be the next party of the PM post Labour.

    What this is also highly relevant to is the Sunak the Johnson enabler vs Starmer the Corbyn enabler arguments. The vehicle for power is almost certainly a main party and, also very short odds is that the vehicle for power within a party is current / recent Cab / ShadCab, Corbyn being the exception of course. I avoided voting Labour for 4 years, but I'm glad someone was in the vehicle, because beyond that, had there been no one sensible left in ShadCab, we'd have been looking at 97-10 retreads stewing on the back benches, or RLB types. Future opposition Tories would do well to take note.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,118
    edited June 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Average UK house prices increased by 4.1% in the 12 months to March 2023, down from 5.8% in February 2023.

    The rate of increase is slowing, its not the same as house prices falling

    source
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/housepriceindex/march2023
    ONS figures are behind the curve.

    "Price of average home in May was 1% lower than in same month last year, according to Halifax figures"

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/07/uk-house-prices-halifax-data-may

    Also, normally prices will be falling for several months, month-on-month, before the annual rate turns negative.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,643

    Agreed. I think too few realise the scale of opposition to PR in the party. The Labour Party is a vehicle to win general elections and govern alone, not as lead partner in a rainbow coalition.
    Yes, though much less so if it was at local level, because (a) local issues are less partisan but above all (b) many MPs don't much care about local councils. I can see it as a reasonable deal if needed - Labour would protect FPTP at Parliamentary level, LibDems would see it as a useful thin end of the wedge.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,632

    The Russian government puts a different value on human life vs the West. We find it difficult to compute how they would not look to reposition their troops ahead of that. But the reality is they still have the Tsarist mindset of infantry being pawns that can be expended without a second thought.

    This is not to say it was a deliberate decision to sacrifice them so as not to tip off anyone to their plans (which were known in advance anyway). It’s just they didn’t even think about them.
    At what point does the supply of Russian soldiers become an issue?

    It's been noted that Russia today is very different demographically to the USSR of 1942, when the supply of men was, effectively, infinite. But it still seems a long way to go before conservation of their own troop numbers becomes an issue they feel they need to deal with. My understanding is that they still have a vast army - albeit one they need to have most of doing other things than fighting in Ukraine lest China or anyone else suddenly take a fancy to all that undefended land.

    Or do they wake up one day and realise that there are no Russian men of fighting age left?

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,135
    edited June 2023
    Pulpstar said:

    There's plenty of building going on near me - I calculated if it was repeated nationwide we'd have an extra 10 million houses going up. But there doesn't seem to be happening much recently on the Barrett site so I'm unsure as to whether it's a deliberate go slow.

    Here's the development with all the flashy cgi https://www.barratthomes.co.uk/worksop
    That links not working.

    Interestingly around me the Barratt development is the one that seems to have the least activity too. I wonder if that's a coincidence or not?

    Though its quite fenced off so hard to tell, where I live there is a lot of activity happening from our developer and they certainly don't seem to be slowing down but its still always been planned to take another couple of years to finish off the development just from this one developer. But new houses are still coming onto the market each month. My own street is finished now which is nice not to have the builders on this street anymore.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,329

    The aim should be to free Ukrainian civilians from Russian occupation. Everything the Russians have done points to their complete disregard for the welfare of civilians in areas under their control, and their active persecution of those suspected of not being loyal to Mother Russia.

    If that can be achieved through negotiations then great, but otherwise we should be prepared to use other means.
    Any negotiation at this moment condemns millions of Ukrainians to a despotic regime. Zelensky cannot do that unless and until all other options are exhausted. And the West understands this is a critical fight for them. The Russian regime must be stopped and pushed back to the pre 2014 borders. That has risks, but to do less rewards their actions.

    There were a bunch of comments on Twitter this morning blaming the west for the dam being blown… apparently we didn’t consider the Russian response to us continuing to support Ukraine so it’s all our fault
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397

    Agree with that. I've seen a lot of developments that take an inordinate amount of time to complete, with little work being evident.

    One of the NIMBY objections is the disruption caused by new building. I suspect that quicker completion of projects would help to reduce objections to them. Nobody likes living adjacent to a building site for years.
    But that isn't how a sane company works - if a site is quickly sold out you can build it but Builders are incredibly reluctant to complete a development while plots are still being sold.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,142

    Agree with that. I've seen a lot of developments that take an inordinate amount of time to complete, with little work being evident.

    One of the NIMBY objections is the disruption caused by new building. I suspect that quicker completion of projects would help to reduce objections to them. Nobody likes living adjacent to a building site for years.
    I suspect that over the next five years, the example of the rebuilding of Ukraine will put us to shame on that front.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,135
    edited June 2023
    eek said:

    But that isn't how a sane company works - if a site is quickly sold out you can build it but Builders are incredibly reluctant to complete a development while plots are still being sold.
    Which is because there isn't enough competition.

    Liberate the planning system and if a builder is too slow at building then people will buy from a competitor instead.

    We have plenty of skilled tradespeople in this country who could be building homes. There's no reason why any one developer should be able to affect prices without the threat of competition staying their hand, the only reason they can is because the big developers can work within the planning constraints which cuts out competition from smaller firms.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    The Russian government puts a different value on human life vs the West. We find it difficult to compute how they would not look to reposition their troops ahead of that. But the reality is they still have the Tsarist mindset of infantry being pawns that can be expended without a second thought.

    This is not to say it was a deliberate decision to sacrifice them so as not to tip off anyone to their plans (which were known in advance anyway). It’s just they didn’t even think about them.
    This is the bunch who

    1) didn’t tell soldiers they were going to Ukraine
    2) didn’t train conscripts
    3) told conscripts to buy their own kit.
    4) did ammo resupply on the basis of who the unit commander knows.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,118
    edited June 2023

    Any negotiation at this moment condemns millions of Ukrainians to a despotic regime. Zelensky cannot do that unless and until all other options are exhausted. And the West understands this is a critical fight for them. The Russian regime must be stopped and pushed back to the pre 2014 borders. That has risks, but to do less rewards their actions.

    There were a bunch of comments on Twitter this morning blaming the west for the dam being blown… apparently we didn’t consider the Russian response to us continuing to support Ukraine so it’s all our fault
    My worry is that the tepid Western response to the dam destruction will convince the Russians that they can destroy the Zaporizhzhia NPP if/when they are forced to retreat from that area.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,118
    Farooq said:

    No they wouldn't. The thing holding the tiny parties back is the same thing holding the Lib Dems back. In most constituencies, 461 of them, it's Labour and Conservative holding the top two positions. Many people view voting for the third or worse party as a wasted vote, so they feel "forced" into choosing between red and blue.

    There's no reason to suppose this would benefit the parties in 4th, 5th and beyond so much more that they would overtake the 3rd placed party.
    The experience of the Lib Dems in Scotland and Wales is not promising for their prospects following use of PR at Westminster.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461
    Cookie said:

    At what point does the supply of Russian soldiers become an issue?

    It's been noted that Russia today is very different demographically to the USSR of 1942, when the supply of men was, effectively, infinite. But it still seems a long way to go before conservation of their own troop numbers becomes an issue they feel they need to deal with. My understanding is that they still have a vast army - albeit one they need to have most of doing other things than fighting in Ukraine lest China or anyone else suddenly take a fancy to all that undefended land.

    Or do they wake up one day and realise that there are no Russian men of fighting age left?

    A bigger issue is training and equipping. A horde of men with an AK and one magazine isn’t that useful.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,907
    edited June 2023
    kle4 said:

    Sounds to me like he's weighed up his options and chosen his preferred one, I don't get the complaint.
    The Telegraphs seems to have a bee in its bonnet about inheritance tax currently.

    It s ‘so what’ story.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,137
    Just one local by-election today - a Lib Dem defence in Wiltshire.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,168

    This is the bunch who

    1) didn’t tell soldiers they were going to Ukraine
    2) didn’t train conscripts
    3) told conscripts to buy their own kit.
    4) did ammo resupply on the basis of who the unit commander knows.
    5) Illegally occupy 150,000 sq. km. of territory in Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia (by contrast, the Israeli occupied territories cover only 7,000 sq. km.)
  • .
    Farooq said:

    No they wouldn't. The thing holding the tiny parties back is the same thing holding the Lib Dems back. In most constituencies, 461 of them, it's Labour and Conservative holding the top two positions. Many people view voting for the third or worse party as a wasted vote, so they feel "forced" into choosing between red and blue.

    There's no reason to suppose this would benefit the parties in 4th, 5th and beyond so much more that they would overtake the 3rd placed party.
    Of course there is, for starters in plenty of constituencies the Lib Dems are the alternative to the incumbent. Then in many constituencies where the Lib Dems aren't even top two they still falsely portray themselves as the alternative.

    FPTP massively assists the Lib Dems over smaller competitor parties.

    The experience of PR where it is used is to see much more churn in who the third party is, with the former third party being relegated or even eliminated altogether quite frequently. Having a consistent third party in PR nations is rather unusual.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,240
    Farooq said:

    No they wouldn't. The thing holding the tiny parties back is the same thing holding the Lib Dems back. In most constituencies, 461 of them, it's Labour and Conservative holding the top two positions. Many people view voting for the third or worse party as a wasted vote, so they feel "forced" into choosing between red and blue.

    There's no reason to suppose this would benefit the parties in 4th, 5th and beyond so much more that they would overtake the 3rd placed party.
    See what has happened to liberal parties on the continent with PR. In Spain Citizens have collapsed to an asterisk behind the far right Vox and hard left Podemos, in Germany the FDP have been overtaken by the AfD now as well as the Greens, in Sweden the nationalist Sweden Democrats and the Left party have both now overtaken the Liberals on seats too.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,118

    A bigger issue is training and equipping. A horde of men with an AK and one magazine isn’t that useful.
    Unfortunately we are seeing China supply more equipment to Russia, small step by small step.

    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1666441410306768899

    If China are not dissuaded from continuing this, then they could help Russia equip a large number of future conscripts.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,137
    The Focaldata poll may or may not predict the overall result of a general election but it produces some bizarre constituency results. So for example it has Labour winning North Devon, Eastbourne, and Montgomery. It also appears to have Don't Knows winning 2 seats - Aberdeenshire North and Moray East!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,240
    edited June 2023

    If there has to be an instructive loss of being the governing party for the SNP at Holyrood, I can’t think of a more helpful interregnum than one of SLab being propped up by the SCons. SLab and Anas aren’t that bright, but even I don’t think they would be that self destructively moronic.
    In 2007 of course the SCons propped up the SNP minority government of Salmond, if Yousaf ruled out indyref2 for the next Parliament then Ross might even keep him as FM if the SNP won most MSPs but not a majority (even with the Greens)
  • In the 2013 election the FDP under PR won no seats at all, while at the time the Lib Dems were in government in the UK.

    Even at the 2015 election the Lib Dems won more seats than the FDP had.

    The idea that FPTP is the only thing holding the Lib Dems back is a joke, a comfort blanket used by Lib Dem supporters. The thing holding the Lib Dems back is that people don't want to vote for them.

    And I say that as someone who is currently voting for them.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,049
    Taz said:

    The Telegraphs seems to have a bee in its bonnet about inheritance tax currently.

    It s ‘so what’ story.
    To be worried about your estate paying IHT, you need to tick three boxes.

    Old enough to hear the Grim Reaper in the vicinity.
    Wealthy enough to be liable for IHT.
    Reluctant to loose your grip on control of your money, even after you die.

    Basically Telegraph core demographic.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261
    Quite extraordinary FT article on Tory donor, Brexit supporter and advertisement for the values passed on by our great public schools Crispin Odey.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,168

    A bigger issue is training and equipping. A horde of men with an AK and one magazine isn’t that useful.
    The one with the rifle shoots! The one without, follows him! When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots!
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,632
    Taz said:

    The Telegraphs seems to have a bee in its bonnet about inheritance tax currently.

    It s ‘so what’ story.
    Current Telegraph bees are:

    Inheritance tax - which it appears to be fighting a solo campaign on.
    House prices - where it is making the baffling assumption that everyone celebrates higher house prices and laments lower ones.
    Working from home - which is clearly something of a direct threat to the Telegraph's commercial success.



  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,240

    In the 2013 election the FDP under PR won no seats at all, while at the time the Lib Dems were in government in the UK.

    Even at the 2015 election the Lib Dems won more seats than the FDP had.

    The idea that FPTP is the only thing holding the Lib Dems back is a joke, a comfort blanket used by Lib Dem supporters. The thing holding the Lib Dems back is that people don't want to vote for them.

    And I say that as someone who is currently voting for them.

    I assume that is voting LD nationally? You are a million miles from the ulta Nimby local council LDs
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021

    A bigger issue is training and equipping. A horde of men with an AK and one magazine isn’t that useful.
    Which is sadly what many of the conscripts sent to Ukraine have been given. Doesn’t take too many body bags coming home, or survivors with stories, before morale starts to drop.

    Huge numbers of Russians, mostly the relatively well-off, have already left the country to avoid being recruited.
  • Cookie said:

    Current Telegraph bees are:

    Inheritance tax - which it appears to be fighting a solo campaign on.
    House prices - where it is making the baffling assumption that everyone celebrates higher house prices and laments lower ones.
    Working from home - which is clearly something of a direct threat to the Telegraph's commercial success.



    I wouldn't have thought that working from home would have much of an impact on the Telegraph's bottom line.

    Its hard to imagine that much of the Telegraph's demographic is of working age.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,142
    edited June 2023

    Unfortunately we are seeing China supply more equipment to Russia, small step by small step.

    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1666441410306768899

    If China are not dissuaded from continuing this, then they could help Russia equip a large number of future conscripts.
    Supplying military equipment to Chechnya isn't necessarily what the Russian state would want at the moment. There are signs that China is preparing for the post-Putin era, which in a different way is something that we should be concerned about.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,295

    In the 2013 election the FDP under PR won no seats at all, while at the time the Lib Dems were in government in the UK.

    Even at the 2015 election the Lib Dems won more seats than the FDP had.

    The idea that FPTP is the only thing holding the Lib Dems back is a joke, a comfort blanket used by Lib Dem supporters. The thing holding the Lib Dems back is that people don't want to vote for them.

    And I say that as someone who is currently voting for them.

    If FPTP actually helps the LDs they are being rather noble in having its abolition as a core objective.
  • HYUFD said:

    I assume that is voting LD nationally? You are a million miles from the ulta Nimby local council LDs
    At the local elections I was curious to see whether the LDs would be NIMBY or not, so I read their leaflet before deciding who to vote for. There was not a hint of NIMBYism in it.

    Had there been, I would have spoilt my ballot. Since they weren't, I lent them my vote.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188
    TIL that Alexis Mac Allister has a brother called Kevin Mac Allister.


  • kinabalu said:

    If FPTP actually helps the LDs they are being rather noble in having its abolition as a core objective.
    Or they're deluding into thinking it hurts them and led by wishful thinking that its the only thing holding them back.

    Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it, is an apt saying.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,137
    edited June 2023
    Taz said:


    Basically a couple of things. The civil service openly being hostile to respective Home Secretaries policies, the targetting of farming also the banning of certain products.

    As to whether or not institutions have been ‘captured’ by the likes of Stonewall remains to be seen however they are certainly influential.

    I think the flaw with this article and line of thinking is to take a couple of controversial issues and extrapolate that into something rather sinister which I think it isn’t.

    as you say, the rest of it is conspiracy theorist nonsense. WEF, 15 minute cities, GB News presenters and so on.

    Thanks. I've read again in the light of your comments and see that those are in there, buried among the rest. I'm not convinced by any, but they are at least debatable points:
    - no mention of May being targetted as HS, for example - her policies were probably as un-woke as the others, maybe more so than Raab's, but she was competent(ish) or appeared so until Brexit
    - the farming thing is too vague for me to make a judgement (are we talking about pricing? animal welfare? pesticide restrictions?)
    - if banning of products refers to ICE cars and gas boilers then I think it's fine to set a notional time limit to focus manufacturers' minds (if your main product might become illegal, you'd better really research the alternatives). I'd prefer a tax regime that takes into account the CO2 (etc) externalities rather than an outright ban, but I'm fairly relaxed (as an ICE driver still and gas boiler owner) about it

    It's true, I think, that too many organisations for social an environmental responsibility look to just pick up an 'approved' badge from a charity (which is also a nice earner for charities) rather than taking a deep hard look at what they're doing. I remember colleagues in marine science taking a dim view of the MSC approved labelling on fish, arguing that it was just a bit of greenwashing rather than anything substantial. The similarly initialled MCS took a quite different view on sustainability of various products.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,295

    Or they're deluding into thinking it hurts them and led by wishful thinking that its the only thing holding them back.

    Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it, is an apt saying.
    PR would benefit them in the short term but not necessarily in the longer term. If that's what you're saying, I agree.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,871
    edited June 2023

    Quite extraordinary FT article on Tory donor, Brexit supporter and advertisement for the values passed on by our great public schools Crispin Odey.

    Crispin Odey is indeed odious. Although in a different era, as often mentioned by some in the Guardian, Attlee, Foot, Orwell, and the noblesse oblige of the older Tory Wets were all advertisements for the public school ethos, too.

    The key toxicity in recent decades has been the combination of aggressive Thatcherism and traditional privilege in the atmosphere at some of these schools, as many have observed. This was the atmosphere that Boris and Mogg grew up in in the '80s.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    On Topic

    I think the Tory floor is 250

    If up against SKS its quite a bit higher than that

    Lab High is about 350

    Under SKS well under 300 i reckon
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054
    HYUFD said:

    See what has happened to liberal parties on the continent with PR. In Spain Citizens have collapsed to an asterisk behind the far right Vox and hard left Podemos, in Germany the FDP have been overtaken by the AfD now as well as the Greens, in Sweden the nationalist Sweden Democrats and the Left party have both now overtaken the Liberals on seats too.

    You are, again, cherrypicking to try to create some grand narrative, as if countries don’t have different political systems and traditions. I just don’t think it’s that predictable what would happen with a change in the electoral system in the UK. It depends on way too many factors, as it depends on many different factors in Spain, Germany etc.

    Some counter-examples are the liberal Estonian Reform Party winning most seats and gaining seats in March’s election. The liberal FijiFirst won in their election last December. The Freedom Movement came from nowhere to win the Slovenian election in April ‘22. The Progressive Party were the big gainers of the 2021 Icelandic election.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,211
    edited June 2023

    I wouldn't have thought that working from home would have much of an impact on the Telegraph's bottom line.

    Its hard to imagine that much of the Telegraph's demographic is of working age.
    It’s to rile that demographic up isn’t it: “I never got the chance to work from home and I had to go into the office every day when I worked, so everyone else should too.” The ‘you don’t know how lucky you have it’ crowd.

    EDIT: this despite the fact an office job for at least some of that working person’s career was pre-internet and email and therefore immediately less stressful. My first boss used to love to regale me with stories of working through the post in tray, moving things into the out tray, making some phone calls and being on their merry way when everything for the day was done: that’s far from the average office experience nowadays.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261

    Crispin Odey is indeed odious. Although in a different era, as often mentioned by some on the Guardian, Attlee, Foot, Orwell, and the noblesse oblige of the older Tory Wets were all advertisements for the public school ethos, too.

    The key toxity in recent decades has been the combination of Thatcherism and traditional privilege in the atmosphere at some of these schools, as many have observed. This was the atmosphere that Boris and Mogg grew up in in the '80s.
    Odey of course a friend and backer of both of the latter. This is the real "Blob".
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,142
    edited June 2023
    A Syrian national who was registered as a refugee in Sweeden has gone on a stabbing rampage in a French children's park.

    https://www.bfmtv.com/police-justice/enfants-blesses-a-annecy-ce-que-l-on-sait-de-l-attaque-au-couteau_AV-202306080448.html
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,240

    Crispin Odey is indeed odious. Although in a different era, as often mentioned by some on the Guardian, Attlee, Foot, Orwell, and the noblesse oblige of the older Tory Wets were all advertisements for the public school ethos, too.

    The key toxity in recent decades has been the combination of aggreessive Thatcherism and traditional privilege in the atmosphere at some of these schools, as many have observed. This was the atmosphere that Boris and Mogg grew up in in the '80s.
    Odey even has contempt for his deceased father, telling the Evening Standard 'He says of his father: “He was always short of money so one spent one’s life giving him handouts. He was a wastrel from beginning to end.” He adds, perhaps a little savagely: “And wastrels always need helping.”

    Of his grandfather 'He also rebelled against his grandfather, “a formidable bully” who insisted that Odey go to the Bar, but he changed his mind while training to be a barrister. “My grandfather disliked the City and he wasn’t used to being countermanded, so he got annoyed.” The final insult: “He left me nothing in his will but an empty suitcase.”
    https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/crispin-odey-david-cameron-is-not-a-leader-doesn-t-understand-power-and-doesn-t-use-it-8335027.html
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 723
    Cookie said:

    Current Telegraph bees are:

    Inheritance tax - which it appears to be fighting a solo campaign on.
    House prices - where it is making the baffling assumption that everyone celebrates higher house prices and laments lower ones.
    Working from home - which is clearly something of a direct threat to the Telegraph's commercial success.



    Also, the number of people registered as long term sick - the implication being many of them are fraudsters.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188

    On Topic

    I think the Tory floor is 250

    If up against SKS its quite a bit higher than that

    Lab High is about 350

    Under SKS well under 300 i reckon

    So SKS’s floor is still higher than anything Corbyn achieved.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397

    On Topic

    I think the Tory floor is 250

    If up against SKS its quite a bit higher than that

    Lab High is about 350

    Under SKS well under 300 i reckon

    Any basis for that beyond your insane hatred of SKS for deserting your one true path, everyone else is a traitor People's front of Judea viewpoint.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,018
    Nigelb said:

    Trump notified that he is the target of ongoing criminal investigation
    He is under investigation for concealing reams of classified information at his private estate and orchestrating a scheme to prevent federal authorities from finding them.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/06/07/trump-notified-that-he-is-the-target-of-an-ongoing-criminal-investigation-00100920

    It's the scheme that is the key bit. Lots have not stored or returned properly. Even now Pence defends him on this issue though.

    Any negotiation at this moment condemns millions of Ukrainians to a despotic regime. Zelensky cannot do that unless and until all other options are exhausted. And the West understands this is a critical fight for them. The Russian regime must be stopped and pushed back to the pre 2014 borders. That has risks, but to do less rewards their actions.

    There were a bunch of comments on Twitter this morning blaming the west for the dam being blown… apparently we didn’t consider the Russian response to us continuing to support Ukraine so it’s all our fault
    Insanity.

    As you say only if options are exhausted will Ukraine pause, and we certainly should try to ensure they are not exhausted
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,249
    HYUFD said:

    Odey even has contempt for his deceased father, telling the Evening Standard 'He says of his father: “He was always short of money so one spent one’s life giving him handouts. He was a wastrel from beginning to end.” He adds, perhaps a little savagely: “And wastrels always need helping.”

    Of his grandfather 'He also rebelled against his grandfather, “a formidable bully” who insisted that Odey go to the Bar, but he changed his mind while training to be a barrister. “My grandfather disliked the City and he wasn’t used to being countermanded, so he got annoyed.” The final insult: “He left me nothing in his will but an empty suitcase.”
    https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/crispin-odey-david-cameron-is-not-a-leader-doesn-t-understand-power-and-doesn-t-use-it-
    8335027.html
    Had Odious ever qualified as a barrister, he’d have been struck off.

  • eekeek Posts: 29,397

    It’s to rile that demographic up isn’t it: “I never got the chance to work from home and I had to go into the office every day when I worked, so everyone else should too.” The ‘you don’t know how lucky you have it’ crowd.

    EDIT: this despite the fact an office job for at least some of that working person’s career was pre-internet and email and therefore immediately less stressful. My first boss used to love to regale me with stories of working through the post in tray, moving things into the out tray, making some phone calls and being on their merry way when everything for the day was done: that’s far from the average office experience nowadays.
    +1 - today is fix priority 1 issue for the business while other people randomly throw more work my way via Teams.

    Sadly I can't close Teams because we are also using it to discuss the priority 1 issue.

    I cannot describe my hatred for Teams when people are in crisis mode...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,822
    Sean_F said:

    Had Odious ever qualified as a barrister, he’d have been struck off.

    they haven't even struck Braverman off, I think that's an exaggeration.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197
    edited June 2023

    Or they're deluding into thinking it hurts them and led by wishful thinking that its the only thing holding them back.

    Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it, is an apt saying.
    It's the only thing holding together the Labour and Conservative parties in their current forms.

    And @bigjohnowls, for example, would be much happier in a party made for him.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,606
    HYUFD said:

    In 2007 of course the SCons propped up the SNP minority government of Salmond, if Yousaf ruled out indyref2 for the next Parliament then Ross might even keep him as FM if the SNP won most MSPs but not a majority (even with the Greens)
    "propped up" - didn't block the budget if paid off by specific items, which varied from party to party an d budget to budget.

    Labour were notoriously self-destructive by voting against all SNP proposals, even those originated by Labour ...

    2007: the Tories were paid off by keeping police numbers uip - ironically far more than the Tories did in rUK. That was a whole order of magnitude easier than what you are postilating.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,712
    edited June 2023

    To be worried about your estate paying IHT, you need to tick three boxes.

    Old enough to hear the Grim Reaper in the vicinity.
    Wealthy enough to be liable for IHT.
    Reluctant to loose your grip on control of your money, even after you die.

    Basically Telegraph core demographic.
    I've spent the last few months sorting my late mother's estate. While the basic IHT allowance is £325k, you get another £175k if leaving a house to your kids, and there's the same allowance again passed on from my father, who died a few years ago. So that's a total of a million pound allowance before any IHT would have been due, which doesn't seem unduly harsh.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,003

    I've spent the last few months sorting my late mother's estate. While the basic IHT allowance is £325k, you get another £175k if leaving a house to your kids, and there's the same allowance again passed on from my father, who died a few years ago. So that's a total of a million pound allowance before any IHT would have been due, which doesn't seem unduly harsh.
    Could the split between housing and non housing assets discourage downsizing ?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,961
    HYUFD said:

    In 2007 of course the SCons propped up the SNP minority government of Salmond, if Yousaf ruled out indyref2 for the next Parliament then Ross might even keep him as FM if the SNP won most MSPs but not a majority (even with the Greens)
    The propping up in 2007 was minimal, Salmond became FM with the support of the Greens not Aunty Annabelle. It even included (along with other Unionist parties) imposing the Edinburgh trams on the SNP very much against their will. Besides those were more pragmatic times, the chances of Ross and his crew voting for Yousaf are precisely zero.

    I would much enjoy the bright new morning of Labour getting rid of the Tories being complimented by SLab coming to power on the basis of an arrangement with the SCons. Some SLD involvement would be the icing on the cake.
  • Nigelb said:

    It's the only thing holding together the Labour and Conservative parties in their current forms.

    And @bigjohnowls, for example, would be much happier in a party made for him.
    But is it a bad thing the parties are being held together?

    Politics isn't about purity and making people happy though, its about messy compromises.

    FPTP means that Labour and the Tories if they're serious about governing have to make those compromises before the election and tell the public some home truths and let the public decide how they're going to vote. Which compromises are acceptable and which aren't.

    PR means you can say whatever you want knowing full well you're never getting a majority to deliver it, then throw it all in the bin after the votes have been counted.

    I'd rather some honesty and compromises are made before the election than after it.

    People like HYUFD might be very happy to have a "purer" Conservative party solely for old fashioned Tories like him, rather than liberals like myself. But in this country in general for the Conservatives to win then leaders like Cameron etc need to attract votes from people who aren't pure Tories like HYUFD and instead appeal to right wing liberals like myself to give the Tories our votes too in order for them to have enough votes cast for them to win.

    Under PR he'd get a purer Tory party in theory, but the second the votes are cast the compromises will be made. But the compromises being made after the votes are cast is too little, too late, to have an informed decision. Rather than politicians like Cameron or Starmer or Blair making compromises and extending their appeal beyond their core vote before the election too.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261
    eek said:

    +1 - today is fix priority 1 issue for the business while other people randomly throw more work my way via Teams.

    Sadly I can't close Teams because we are also using it to discuss the priority 1 issue.

    I cannot describe my hatred for Teams when people are in crisis mode...
    The few times I have actually got Teams to work have made me glad that I can't usually do that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197

    But is it a bad thing the parties are being held together?

    Politics isn't about purity and making people happy though, its about messy compromises.

    FPTP means that Labour and the Tories if they're serious about governing have to make those compromises before the election and tell the public some home truths...
    LOL.
    Couldn't get past that bit.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,003
    Pulpstar said:

    Could the split between housing and non housing assets discourage downsizing ?
    Also, and though I accept this is a niche concern for today's octo and nonagenarians passing on do parents need to be married to pass on the double allowance to their kids ?
  • Nigelb said:

    LOL.
    Couldn't get past that bit.
    Its true though.

    Parties that win majorities in this country do so by extending their reach beyond their core vote.

    I'm reasonably confident now that the Tories are going to lose the next election, and they're going to lose it because they're no longer serious about governing and Sunak is retreating into a core vote strategy appealing to would-be Tory Councillors like HYUFD.

    That may make a purer Tory party that keeps HYUFD happy. But its a recipe for losing an election, and deserving to lose an election.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,249
    ydoethur said:

    they haven't even struck Braverman off, I think that's an exaggeration.
    But, Odious is worse.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    The West really needs to stop letting in young male refugees from hotbeds of terrorism. Host them in camps in the region. We shouldn't have to put innocent people at risk due to arbitrary beneficiaries of charity.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/live/65843586
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,118
    edited June 2023

    Its true though.

    Parties that win majorities in this country do so by extending their reach beyond their core vote.

    I'm reasonably confident now that the Tories are going to lose the next election, and they're going to lose it because they're no longer serious about governing and Sunak is retreating into a core vote strategy appealing to would-be Tory Councillors like HYUFD.

    That may make a purer Tory party that keeps HYUFD happy. But its a recipe for losing an election, and deserving to lose an election.
    Parties don't reach beyond their core vote by telling voters home truths, but by telling their party members home truths - that a little of what they want is better than none.

    This is the same discussion a party would need to have after an election when contemplating entering a coalition. The question is whether the electorate should influence those discussions beforehand, or afterwards.

    I think the electorate have more freedom of action if they get to vote first. They can then give their judgement on the choices made at the next election.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197
    President Zelenskyy visiting Kherson amid flooding caused by Russia's destruction of Kakhovka dam
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1666758333427073024

    Russians are shelling Kherson's center and riverside areas, local Telegram channels report
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1666768020016975874
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    Its true though.

    Parties that win majorities in this country do so by extending their reach beyond their core vote.

    I'm reasonably confident now that the Tories are going to lose the next election, and they're going to lose it because they're no longer serious about governing and Sunak is retreating into a core vote strategy appealing to would-be Tory Councillors like HYUFD.

    That may make a purer Tory party that keeps HYUFD happy. But its a recipe for losing an election, and deserving to lose an election.
    When you are on 25% of the vote, you aren't going to win regardless. Your best approach is to shore up 30-35% for a foundation for the next election.

    Of course, Sunak is also doing things AUKUS, CPTPP, the NI agreement, etc which show he is serious about governing.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,318

    The few times I have actually got Teams to work have made me glad that I can't usually do that.
    Works ok for us mostly, but now we have competing streams of info - some via email, some via Teams.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,118
    WillG said:

    The West really needs to stop letting in young male refugees from hotbeds of terrorism. Host them in camps in the region. We shouldn't have to put innocent people at risk due to arbitrary beneficiaries of charity.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/live/65843586

    By the same argument you could implement a curfew on all young men aged 16-26 and massively reduce violent crime.

    But collective preventative punishment is frowned upon outside of schools.
  • Parties don't reach beyond their core vote by telling voters home truths, but by telling their party members home truths - that a little of what they want is better than none.

    This is the same discussion a party would need to have after an election when contemplating entering a coalition. The question is whether the electorate should influence those discussions beforehand, or afterwards.

    I think the electorate have more freedom of action if they get to vote first. They can then give their judgement on the choices made at the next election.
    That's a distinction without a difference.

    Telling their party members home truths is telling voters home truths, since their members are voters.

    Simply telling your voters what they want to hear, while other parties tell their voters what they want to hear, when both of you know that you have no ability or intention to deliver that and will compromise the second votes have been cast, is simply dishonesty.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,109
    As I love said before, NZ is a good example to look at to try to find the predict what PR Britain might look like.

    There would be a period of volatility, perhaps 10-15 years, during which both voters and MPs try to figure out how to use the system. Expect lots of little parties, and mini-cleggmanias.

    You’d then settle down into something like:

    Tories 30-40%
    Labour 30-40%
    Right wing party 5-10%
    LDs 5-10%
    Greens 5-10%
    Nationalists 5%
    Corbynistas <5%

    At times, the right wing party would hit up to 20% when Con voters are disaffected. Something similar would happen on the left, with the Greens and the Corbynistas the recipients.

    Two clear electoral blocs would emerge, with the LDs and sometimes nationalists, swinging between the two.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    By the same argument you could implement a curfew on all young men aged 16-26 and massively reduce violent crime.

    But collective preventative punishment is frowned upon outside of schools.
    But young male citizens should have a right to liberty to live their lives. Syrian refugees should have a right to be free from persecution, but shouldn't have an automatic right to live in the West.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,118

    That's a distinction without a difference.

    Telling their party members home truths is telling voters home truths, since their members are voters.

    Simply telling your voters what they want to hear, while other parties tell their voters what they want to hear, when both of you know that you have no ability or intention to deliver that and will compromise the second votes have been cast, is simply dishonesty.
    It's not a distinction without a difference, because the home truths are different.

    The politicians are not prepared to tell the truth about the desperate situation Britain is in, and the hard work that would be required to fix it, because they don't trust the voters to vote for it.

    Blandishments and pretending that there are easy sources of money to fix things is the message from both sides.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,712
    edited June 2023
    Pulpstar said:

    Could the split between housing and non housing assets discourage downsizing ?
    I don't think so, since the size of the residence nil-rate band doesn't depend on the value of the property that is left. But it could be tough on your beneficiaries if you have sizeable non-property assets to pass on but die while living in rental accommodation.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,961
    WillG said:

    The West really needs to stop letting in young male refugees from hotbeds of terrorism. Host them in camps in the region. We shouldn't have to put innocent people at risk due to arbitrary beneficiaries of charity.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/live/65843586

    Is Ukraine a hotbed of terrorism?

    'Open door for Ukraine refugees could lead to ‘devastating’ terror attack on UK, Tory minister claims'

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukrainian-refugees-terror-attack-suella-braverman-b2038899.html
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,109
    One final thing, it’s not obvious to me at all that PR solves any real woes as outlined by @RochdalePioneers earlier.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,003

    I don't think so, since the size of the residence nil-rate band doesn't depend on the value of the property that is left. But it could be tough on your beneficiaries if you have sizeable non-property assets to pass on but die while living in rental accommodation.
    Yes it seems weird that selling up and renting later in life is penalised compared to having equity tied up in your own property.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197
    @david_herdson was asking a little while back for an explanation of how criminal indictments might damage Trump's primary chances.

    This article makes a pretty decent case.
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2023/06/08/this-indictment-will-likely-come-too-early-for-trump-to-consolidate-the-party/
    ...Trump’s first response to the first public confirmation that he will soon be charged was not, as it turned out, to bellow, “Lock him up!” or even reconsider his past obstruction, but instead demand that the insurrectionists in Congress do something.

    His first response was to demand that Republicans turn their focus — as they have for much of the last five years — on defending him at all costs, to the detriment of anything that better serves their interests (to say nothing of the interests of their constituents).

    ..But this indictment — if it indeed gets filed in the next two weeks or so — may come too early for Trump.

    That’s because, as I laid out here, there’s still plenty of time in the GOP primary for other Republicans to take advantage of Trump’s legal woes. Republicans seem to be sensing this opportunity. Chris Christie kicked off his undoubtedly doomed presidential race by focusing on Trump’s epic corruption. Mike Pence kicked off his equally doomed presidential run by emphasizing that he did his duty on January 6, unlike Trump...


    Note also the description of recent events in Congress, where the debt ceiling deal has rendered a visible breach between the MAGA members and the more rational Republicans.

    Of course, for now, it remains only a theory.
    ...If Trump weren’t indicted until September or October — still a realistic timeline for January 6, particularly if interim charges must occur first — Trump might have had an opportunity to seal the GOP primary and force the GOP to defend whatever crimes he gets charged with, to own and normalize those crimes as their own, as the GOP has chosen to do for the past six years.

    But at the moment, there are hints of a mood change..
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,118
    Pulpstar said:

    Yes it seems weird that selling up and renting later in life is penalised compared to having equity tied up in your own property.
    Generally pensioners have a lower income and less ability to increase their income. It's a substantial advantage to them to own their own house and not have to worry about rent or mortgage payments.

    In future decades Britain's is going to see an increasing number of pensioners reliant on the private rental sector, and those pensioners will find life increasingly difficult in the face of increasing rents and a lack of security of tenure.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    Sorry to keep going on about the war........

    We are in the early stages of the Ukrainian counter offensive and so far as one can tell the mood on their side is positive. However I'm not sure we have a convincing answer to the ZNPP issue. No-one can deny the likelihood of scorched earth tactics being part of Russia's likely approach to retreating. A major nuclear incident there would be a calamity. I don't think a Chernobyl style meltdown is likely because the plant is more modern. But if a major explosion was to take place on the inside of the plant? The depravity that has been displayed by the Russian military means that nothing ought to shock us.

    I hope our leaders are fully on top of this.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,135
    edited June 2023

    It's not a distinction without a difference, because the home truths are different.

    The politicians are not prepared to tell the truth about the desperate situation Britain is in, and the hard work that would be required to fix it, because they don't trust the voters to vote for it.

    Blandishments and pretending that there are easy sources of money to fix things is the message from both sides.
    Every party everywhere in every country has elements of blandishments and pretence, that's not unique to Britain.

    But at least in the UK our parties are required to accept some compromises before the election and give the voters a reasonably informed decision before they cast their votes rather than waiting until its too late and then doing so.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,005
    Nigelb said:

    @david_herdson was asking a little while back for an explanation of how criminal indictments might damage Trump's primary chances.

    This article makes a pretty decent case.
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2023/06/08/this-indictment-will-likely-come-too-early-for-trump-to-consolidate-the-party/
    ...Trump’s first response to the first public confirmation that he will soon be charged was not, as it turned out, to bellow, “Lock him up!” or even reconsider his past obstruction, but instead demand that the insurrectionists in Congress do something.

    His first response was to demand that Republicans turn their focus — as they have for much of the last five years — on defending him at all costs, to the detriment of anything that better serves their interests (to say nothing of the interests of their constituents).

    ..But this indictment — if it indeed gets filed in the next two weeks or so — may come too early for Trump.

    That’s because, as I laid out here, there’s still plenty of time in the GOP primary for other Republicans to take advantage of Trump’s legal woes. Republicans seem to be sensing this opportunity. Chris Christie kicked off his undoubtedly doomed presidential race by focusing on Trump’s epic corruption. Mike Pence kicked off his equally doomed presidential run by emphasizing that he did his duty on January 6, unlike Trump...


    Note also the description of recent events in Congress, where the debt ceiling deal has rendered a visible breach between the MAGA members and the more rational Republicans.

    Of course, for now, it remains only a theory.
    ...If Trump weren’t indicted until September or October — still a realistic timeline for January 6, particularly if interim charges must occur first — Trump might have had an opportunity to seal the GOP primary and force the GOP to defend whatever crimes he gets charged with, to own and normalize those crimes as their own, as the GOP has chosen to do for the past six years.

    But at the moment, there are hints of a mood change..

    Are Chris Christie and Pence definitely doomed if Trump falls.
    DeSantis won't necessarily benefit most - and he looks like a really flawed candidate anyway, possibly beaten up by Mickey Mouse.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,240
    Rural Oregon movement emerges to break away from the state and join Idaho to form a 'greater Idaho'
    https://www.foxnews.com/media/rural-oregon-movement-join-greater-idaho-gains-traction-vote-12th-county
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,318

    One final thing, it’s not obvious to me at all that PR solves any real woes as outlined by @RochdalePioneers earlier.

    I think it gives different issues. With FPTP we have big coalition parties held together by the prospect of power, but always underneath the crust are the the factions.

    In PR the horse trading starts after the result. It would be a shift for UK voters. There would be the issue of manifesto 'promises' being traded away and the acrimony after (see tuition fees).

    The biggest issue that I believe we have is the short term nature of parliaments, leading to a very poor culture of big infrastructure building. Parties like to have delivered clear and obvious results in time to campaign for the next election (40 new hospitals!). Clearly increasing the interval between elections may not be the answer, but something needs to be done if the country is ever to get big infrastructure being built.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,240

    Its true though.

    Parties that win majorities in this country do so by extending their reach beyond their core vote.

    I'm reasonably confident now that the Tories are going to lose the next election, and they're going to lose it because they're no longer serious about governing and Sunak is retreating into a core vote strategy appealing to would-be Tory Councillors like HYUFD.

    That may make a purer Tory party that keeps HYUFD happy. But its a recipe for losing an election, and deserving to lose an election.
    You are a libertarian who voted for Brexit and wants to concrete all over the greenbelt, I voted Remain and want to protect our greenbelt and focus new affordable homes on brownbelt land and urban high rise first.

    The idea that I am the extremist and you are the ultra centrist on everything, is of course, absurd
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188
    Well.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,240

    The propping up in 2007 was minimal, Salmond became FM with the support of the Greens not Aunty Annabelle. It even included (along with other Unionist parties) imposing the Edinburgh trams on the SNP very much against their will. Besides those were more pragmatic times, the chances of Ross and his crew voting for Yousaf are precisely zero.

    I would much enjoy the bright new morning of Labour getting rid of the Tories being complimented by SLab coming to power on the basis of an arrangement with the SCons. Some SLD involvement would be the icing on the cake.
    If SLab and LD have more MSPs than the SNP, then Sarwar could equally become FM without SCon support, however like Salmond in 2007 he would need SCon support to get legislation through
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197

    Are Chris Christie and Pence definitely doomed if Trump falls.
    DeSantis won't necessarily benefit most - and he looks like a really flawed candidate anyway, possibly beaten up by Mickey Mouse.
    Pence is, I think; he is a charisma free zone, without any USP other than his peculiarly dogmatic version of Christianity. And it would be something of a miracle for Christie to make much headway, too. Entering the contest avowedly to go to war with Trump is to be applauded - but probably won't be by his party.

    Haley, perhaps, has a slightly greater chance. You could make a case for her current odds of around 40/1 being quite good value.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,135
    edited June 2023
    HYUFD said:

    You are a libertarian who voted for Brexit and wants to concrete all over the greenbelt, I voted Remain and want to protect our greenbelt and focus new affordable homes on brownbelt land and urban high rise first.

    The idea that I am the extremist and you are the ultra centrist on everything, is of course, absurd
    I don't want to concrete all over the greenbelt. I don't think there's any demand for such, if we did that at our current density of housing we'd have enough houses for about a billion people and I don't think there's any demand for that whatsoever.

    I've suggested a small amount of greenbelt land ought to be built on, because there's been a vast growth in our countries population, so there simply isn't enough brownbelt land to use.

    I don't see you volunteering to go live in a high rise, why should anyone else have that as the only option before them?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197

    Is Ukraine a hotbed of terrorism?

    'Open door for Ukraine refugees could lead to ‘devastating’ terror attack on UK, Tory minister claims'

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukrainian-refugees-terror-attack-suella-braverman-b2038899.html
    There are several hundred thousand foreign terrorists on their soil.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,606
    HYUFD said:

    If SLab and LD have more MSPs than the SNP, then Sarwar could equally become FM without SCon support, however like Salmond in 2007 he would need SCon support to get legislation through
    If my great-great-890-times-great-grandfather had been a dolphin, I could be eating ultra-fresh sashimi right now.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,606

    Generally pensioners have a lower income and less ability to increase their income. It's a substantial advantage to them to own their own house and not have to worry about rent or mortgage payments.

    In future decades Britain's is going to see an increasing number of pensioners reliant on the private rental sector, and those pensioners will find life increasingly difficult in the face of increasing rents and a lack of security of tenure.
    HMG will need to bring back the workhouse. I can't see the current Tory party bringing back almshouses, favourably as theu are regarded.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/22/affordable-and-stress-free-how-almshouses-are-the-unsung-heroes-of-uk-social-housing
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,961
    Nigelb said:

    There are several hundred thousand foreign terrorists on their soil.
    Still, the prospect of a Russian posing as a Uke refugee going amok in the home counties seems somewhat abstract.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,378
    Carnyx said:

    If my great-great-890-times-great-grandfather had been a dolphin, I could be eating ultra-fresh sashimi right now.
    Wouldn't SLAB and LD need more MSPs than both the SNP and Greens in any case?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,168
    HYUFD said:

    If SLab and LD have more MSPs than the SNP, then Sarwar could equally become FM without SCon support, however like Salmond in 2007 he would need SCon support to get legislation through
    If I could be washed up on a desert island with Michelle O'Neill... Oh, well! Not happening!
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022

    ONS figures are behind the curve.

    "Price of average home in May was 1% lower than in same month last year, according to Halifax figures"

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/07/uk-house-prices-halifax-data-may

    Also, normally prices will be falling for several months, month-on-month, before the annual rate turns negative.
    I hope you are right about the ONS figures being behind the curve. I'm not calling for a crash but house prices going up is the last thing we need.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,118
    HYUFD said:

    If SLab and LD have more MSPs than the SNP, then Sarwar could equally become FM without SCon support, however like Salmond in 2007 he would need SCon support to get legislation through
    The more interesting scenario is where (Lab + LD) < (SNP + Green), but the Tories give Unionists a majority.

    Then Labour would need explicit Tory support to form a government. What price would the Tories all for in such a scenario, and how much damage would that price do to Labour at the subsequent election?
This discussion has been closed.