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A reminder of the polling on today’s big political issue – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,492
    biggles said:

    The second issue would be how important do the public think misleading parliament to be? Now on pb we would all assume very but we aren't average joes.

    Agree. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the public don’t care about lying to Parliament. That’s partly because they don’t revere Parliament and partly because they assume all MPs do it all the time.
    I think though that MPs do care about it, and it is them that decide the punishment.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,923
    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    Fpt (Uganda Homophobia);


    felix said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga and the events at Namuwongo, in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key founding myths of the (otherwise improbable) Ugandan nation.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    I was waiting for the first one to blame us for this vote...

    Sean_F said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key Ugandan founding myths.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    It’s more of a reaction against colonialism.

    France abolished laws against gay sex in 1791, so, it was never a crime in the French Empire. But most former French colonies made it so, after independence.

    Most former British colonies made the laws more stringent.
    It will still be our fault, somehow.
    These post by @Casino_Royale & @felix display extreme ignorance. You’ve both chosen to misrepresent what I posted and turn it into a cheap point in the British right wing culture war.

    Do you have even the most basic understanding of Ugandan history? Or the political debate about homosexuality in Uganda since the mid 2000’s?

    You don’t think Namugongo is relevant? Why is Uganda so much more hostile to homosexuality vis-a-vis other African countries?

    If you are remotely interested/concerned about homophobia in Uganda, you have to understand the political weaponisation of the Uganda martyrs in the project of nation building.

    As I said, they’ve taken our colonial bullshit and run with it. How is that not true?
    Homosexuality is also illegal in most of the former French colonies in North Africa. South Africa though, which was part of the British Empire, is the only African nation where homosexual marriage is legal

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
    Legality is one thing, day-to-day social/religious/state repression, another.

    Life can be pretty shitty for queers in SA, despite its legality, while being surprisingly unproblematic for queers in other places where homosexuality is illegal.

    Homophobia in Uganda is a bit a special case. It is intrinsically linked to colonialism and the legacy of the king of Buganda - Kabaka Mwanga II’s tyrannical rule - his sexual abuse of his male pages, their conversion to Christianity and execution.

    The founding myth of the entire, fragile post-colonial entity that is Uganda is rooted in their ancestors being martyred for standing against homosexuality. Ugandans largely buy into this interpretation of their history and for many is a key foundation of their faith.

    We would see it as a simple abuse of power, the homosexuality and religious angles, unimportant.

    But that ain’t how your average Ugandan sees it.

    For Museveni, homophobia/homosexuality also plays into his management of the complex relationship between the centre (and the other tribes) and the Baganda.

    Last nights vote in Kampala cannot be explained without reference to British colonialism.

    The PB right wingers are just, flat out wrong.
    I always understood that Mwanga was a link to an older Ugandan tradition of being very open to gay and trans people within its culture. I assumed the point you were making was that we came in and ended that by applying our 19th century Christian laws, and now they are stuck with them and the religion that grew out of what we gave them.

    I’m interested if it’s more complex than that?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,799
    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fearless Forecast - much HEAVY lifting attempted by the PB BoJo Brigade today.

    With Fear of Keir way more than palpable, more like pulsating.

    I’m not sure if there’s anyone left in the PB BoJo brigade is there? I think most of them have jumped ship. Leon was the last seen on the bridge I think, and then just for the LOLs
    @HYUFD struggles but most of us want Johnson gone and in my case have supported Sunak for over a year and do see him as the future of the conservative party and able to mitigate the GE24 result

    Today in PMQs he was virtually bouncing with confidence, maybe at the thought of taking on Johnson and the ERG, and his put down of Starmer when Starmer raised Sunak's FPN was perfect
    What was it, Big G?
    Starmer referred to Sunak's FPN and in his reply Sunak said he wanted to address it directly by saying he arrived at the scheduled meeting and accepted the FPN and apologised, but we all now know that the leader of the opposition was being advised by Sue Gray at the time
    How can she have been advising Starmer at the time? She hasn't got the job yet. If Sunak wants to do Johnson's dirty work for him by trashing a dedicated public servant that's not a great endorsement of the idea that he represents a break from Johnsonian sleaze. Still, he got the lolz from the Tory fanbois.
    Chill. It was a good joke. Oh if only people didn't take obvious jokes so seriously on PB.
    Jokes on PB are different from the PM speaking in the House of Commons and trashing government employees, aren't they?
    Jokes are good because there is an element of truth in them. As was the case here.
    But rather misses the other element of truth - that a civil servant was handed a politically awkward task that no one else wanted, performed it pretty well, and was then told her career was at a dead end.

    Which is largely why she took the job with Labour.

    A bit less amusing, I suppose.
    When you're explaining you're losing.

    Remember this is a Cons party slowly and uncertainly coming off the Johnson Clown teet. They need a bit of red meat.

    And, it was a funny joke.

    A similar one could and I'm sure was made wrt Shami. With similar justification.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,805
    edited March 2023

    There were many reasons to depose Boris Johnson and I was glad when it happened. None of those reasons (in my opinion) were that he let No. 10 employees have a shred of respite from their crappy lives by gathering together for some cheap wine and crisps. I also think that Boris's public announcements at the time were clearly with a large 'nod and wink' to people to interpret the rules sensibly rather than follow them to the letter.

    Nah, he doesn’t get a pass for that I’m afraid.

    If you’re imposing those rules on others the first rule of responsible leadership is that you lead by example and show everyone how it’s supposed to be done.

    If he was doing it all with a “nod and a wink” why were the police fining people for walking outside with a coffee and why did his correspondence with Hancock suggest he was delighted the police were enforcing the rules strictly?

    This was a test of leadership and he flunked it badly.

    Also: from the political standpoint, the approach taken at Number 10 was so incredibly short-sighted. I can understand how there might be ambiguity as to how the rules were having to be followed in office/home government buildings. It would have been so, so easy for the government to come out with a written statement of intent with a “this are how we are protecting staff at Number 10, these are the guidelines we are following, this has been reviewed in conjunction with the police.” That would have killed the issue stone dead.
  • FPT :

    Sunak is definitely upping his game. A more pragmatic and less ideologically Thatcherite approach to the strikes, improved Commons performances, and a general sense of him growing into the role.

    Some partial improvements in the polls as a result ; it won't be enough to win the Tories the next election, but he might be the only force that could save them from a terrible reduction in seats , and rescue them from irrelevance.

    Sunak growing into the role of PM is precisely what Boris failed to do. Great to see the difference between the two.
    Boris sank into the role of PM, going native and locking the country down unnecessarily and worse keeping us locked down even after the country had vaccinated the vulnerable.

    Had we not had a lockdown, then Boris would probably still be PM now.
  • There were many reasons to depose Boris Johnson and I was glad when it happened. None of those reasons (in my opinion) were that he let No. 10 employees have a shred of respite from their crappy lives by gathering together for some cheap wine and crisps. I also think that Boris's public announcements at the time were clearly with a large 'nod and wink' to people to interpret the rules sensibly rather than follow them to the letter.

    I think you are completely misremembering the rather strict approach he and others pushed at the time, and instead remembering the more relaxed attitude he has adopted more recently, since certain revelations came out.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,879
    Andy_JS said:

    Voting against Sunak's deal.

    Boris Johnson
    Liz Truss
    IDS
    Priti Patel
    John Redwood
    Peter Bone
    Jacob Rees-Mogg
    Mark Francois
    James Duddridge
    Andrea Jenkyns

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/22/conservative-mps-who-will-vote-against-ni-brexit-deal/

    Although "judge it by its opponents" isn't always a logical argument, in this case that list is reasonably strong evidence that the deal is worth having.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,884
    Andy_JS said:

    Voting against Sunak's deal.

    Boris Johnson
    Liz Truss
    IDS
    Priti Patel
    John Redwood
    Peter Bone
    Jacob Rees-Mogg
    Mark Francois
    James Duddridge
    Andrea Jenkyns

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/22/conservative-mps-who-will-vote-against-ni-brexit-deal/

    10 MPs with but a single brain.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,381

    FPT :

    Sunak is definitely upping his game. A more pragmatic and less ideologically Thatcherite approach to the strikes, improved Commons performances, and a general sense of him growing into the role.

    Some partial improvements in the polls as a result ; it won't be enough to win the Tories the next election, but he might be the only force that could save them from a terrible reduction in seats , and rescue them from irrelevance.

    Sunak growing into the role of PM is precisely what Boris failed to do. Great to see the difference between the two.
    Boris sank into the role of PM, going native and locking the country down unnecessarily and worse keeping us locked down even after the country had vaccinated the vulnerable.

    Had we not had a lockdown, then Boris would probably still be PM now.
    It's an interesting counterfactual. Could he really have ridden out the hysteria if we had followed the Swedish approach?
  • Andy_JS said:

    Voting against Sunak's deal.

    Boris Johnson
    Liz Truss
    IDS
    Priti Patel
    John Redwood
    Peter Bone
    Jacob Rees-Mogg
    Mark Francois
    James Duddridge
    Andrea Jenkyns

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/22/conservative-mps-who-will-vote-against-ni-brexit-deal/

    Don't tell me this means Nadine Dorries' lips have been unstitched from the place with which they've been connected for some time?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,355
    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    carnforth said:

    25 injuries, 15 taken to hospital at the dock:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-65038617

    That’s awful. Hopefully no one was seriously hurt trying to save an object.
    I imagine most if not all just happened on be on site when it went over. According to Wiki it was high winds that toppled Petrel which is fairly mind boggling.
    In slower time, once the injuries are dealt with, heads need to roll. I can’t recall ever seeing this happen in dry dock before.
    I don't think heads need to roll until we find out exactly what caused this accident. It's a mistake to assume, as in Albert and the Lion, but somebody ought to be summonsed!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,385

    FPT :

    Sunak is definitely upping his game. A more pragmatic and less ideologically Thatcherite approach to the strikes, improved Commons performances, and a general sense of him growing into the role.

    Some partial improvements in the polls as a result ; it won't be enough to win the Tories the next election, but he might be the only force that could save them from a terrible reduction in seats , and rescue them from irrelevance.

    Sunak growing into the role of PM is precisely what Boris failed to do. Great to see the difference between the two.
    Boris sank into the role of PM, going native and locking the country down unnecessarily and worse keeping us locked down even after the country had vaccinated the vulnerable.

    Had we not had a lockdown, then Boris would probably still be PM now.
    Alternatively, the huge wave of early deaths from Covid would have had his head on a spike at Traitors Gate before 2020 was out...
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited March 2023
    biggles said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    Fpt (Uganda Homophobia);


    felix said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga and the events at Namuwongo, in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key founding myths of the (otherwise improbable) Ugandan nation.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    I was waiting for the first one to blame us for this vote...

    Sean_F said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key Ugandan founding myths.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    It’s more of a reaction against colonialism.

    France abolished laws against gay sex in 1791, so, it was never a crime in the French Empire. But most former French colonies made it so, after independence.

    Most former British colonies made the laws more stringent.
    It will still be our fault, somehow.
    These post by @Casino_Royale & @felix display extreme ignorance. You’ve both chosen to misrepresent what I posted and turn it into a cheap point in the British right wing culture war.

    Do you have even the most basic understanding of Ugandan history? Or the political debate about homosexuality in Uganda since the mid 2000’s?

    You don’t think Namugongo is relevant? Why is Uganda so much more hostile to homosexuality vis-a-vis other African countries?

    If you are remotely interested/concerned about homophobia in Uganda, you have to understand the political weaponisation of the Uganda martyrs in the project of nation building.

    As I said, they’ve taken our colonial bullshit and run with it. How is that not true?
    Homosexuality is also illegal in most of the former French colonies in North Africa. South Africa though, which was part of the British Empire, is the only African nation where homosexual marriage is legal

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
    Legality is one thing, day-to-day social/religious/state repression, another.

    Life can be pretty shitty for queers in SA, despite its legality, while being surprisingly unproblematic for queers in other places where homosexuality is illegal.

    Homophobia in Uganda is a bit a special case. It is intrinsically linked to colonialism and the legacy of the king of Buganda - Kabaka Mwanga II’s tyrannical rule - his sexual abuse of his male pages, their conversion to Christianity and execution.

    The founding myth of the entire, fragile post-colonial entity that is Uganda is rooted in their ancestors being martyred for standing against homosexuality. Ugandans largely buy into this interpretation of their history and for many is a key foundation of their faith.

    We would see it as a simple abuse of power, the homosexuality and religious angles, unimportant.

    But that ain’t how your average Ugandan sees it.

    For Museveni, homophobia/homosexuality also plays into his management of the complex relationship between the centre (and the other tribes) and the Baganda.

    Last nights vote in Kampala cannot be explained without reference to British colonialism.

    The PB right wingers are just, flat out wrong.
    I always understood that Mwanga was a link to an older Ugandan tradition of being very open to gay and trans people within its culture. I assumed the point you were making was that we came in and ended that by applying our 19th century Christian laws, and now they are stuck with them and the religion that grew out of what we gave them.

    I’m interested if it’s more complex than that?
    That’s pretty much exactly my point.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,879
    edited March 2023

    FPT :

    Sunak is definitely upping his game. A more pragmatic and less ideologically Thatcherite approach to the strikes, improved Commons performances, and a general sense of him growing into the role.

    Some partial improvements in the polls as a result ; it won't be enough to win the Tories the next election, but he might be the only force that could save them from a terrible reduction in seats , and rescue them from irrelevance.

    Sunak growing into the role of PM is precisely what Boris failed to do. Great to see the difference between the two.
    Boris sank into the role of PM, going native and locking the country down unnecessarily and worse keeping us locked down even after the country had vaccinated the vulnerable.

    Had we not had a lockdown, then Boris would probably still be PM now.
    It's an interesting counterfactual, sure. Certianly I don't think it's particularly controversial to suggest that lockdown was against his instincts, and it would be interesting how he would have treated those 18 months if he could have done what he wanted to do rather than being forced into doing something he disliked.

    I'm not sure "going native" is totally fair - he has always sought popularity and as much as you and I hate it, lockdown was exceptionally popular.

    That he was too weak to stand up for his instincts for what was right against his love of popularity suggests that without Covid he'd still have found away to tie himself in knots to the point where he would have been forced out in disgrace.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Can someone post link(s) for livestreaming Boris Johnson doing his Benny Hill impersonation today?
  • FPT :

    Sunak is definitely upping his game. A more pragmatic and less ideologically Thatcherite approach to the strikes, improved Commons performances, and a general sense of him growing into the role.

    Some partial improvements in the polls as a result ; it won't be enough to win the Tories the next election, but he might be the only force that could save them from a terrible reduction in seats , and rescue them from irrelevance.

    Sunak growing into the role of PM is precisely what Boris failed to do. Great to see the difference between the two.
    Boris sank into the role of PM, going native and locking the country down unnecessarily and worse keeping us locked down even after the country had vaccinated the vulnerable.

    Had we not had a lockdown, then Boris would probably still be PM now.
    It's an interesting counterfactual. Could he really have ridden out the hysteria if we had followed the Swedish approach?
    Its a good question, though Sweden did.

    We'd have probably had people voluntarily locking themselves down and taking responsibility for themselves, which is precisely what should happen in a liberal society, rather than the draconian lockdown restrictions that were inevitably broken even by the people who set them.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    The second issue would be how important do the public think misleading parliament to be? Now on pb we would all assume very but we aren't average joes.

    The hypocrisy and lying about partying during lockdown pretty much did for Johnson's premiership. All the polling indicated that it really cut through to the general population in a big way. I still think a substantial majority of voters want to seem him finally held to account.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772

    Can someone post link(s) for livestreaming Boris Johnson doing his Benny Hill impersonation today?

    It's on Sky news
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,420

    Andy_JS said:

    Voting against Sunak's deal.

    Boris Johnson
    Liz Truss
    IDS
    Priti Patel
    John Redwood
    Peter Bone
    Jacob Rees-Mogg
    Mark Francois
    James Duddridge
    Andrea Jenkyns

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/22/conservative-mps-who-will-vote-against-ni-brexit-deal/

    10 MPs with but a single brain.
    That’s very generous.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,396

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    Fpt (Uganda Homophobia);


    felix said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga and the events at Namuwongo, in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key founding myths of the (otherwise improbable) Ugandan nation.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    I was waiting for the first one to blame us for this vote...

    Sean_F said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key Ugandan founding myths.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    It’s more of a reaction against colonialism.

    France abolished laws against gay sex in 1791, so, it was never a crime in the French Empire. But most former French colonies made it so, after independence.

    Most former British colonies made the laws more stringent.
    It will still be our fault, somehow.
    These post by @Casino_Royale & @felix display extreme ignorance. You’ve both chosen to misrepresent what I posted and turn it into a cheap point in the British right wing culture war.

    Do you have even the most basic understanding of Ugandan history? Or the political debate about homosexuality in Uganda since the mid 2000’s?

    You don’t think Namugongo is relevant? Why is Uganda so much more hostile to homosexuality vis-a-vis other African countries?

    If you are remotely interested/concerned about homophobia in Uganda, you have to understand the political weaponisation of the Uganda martyrs in the project of nation building.

    As I said, they’ve taken our colonial bullshit and run with it. How is that not true?
    Homosexuality is also illegal in most of the former French colonies in North Africa. South Africa though, which was part of the British Empire, is the only African nation where homosexual marriage is legal

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
    How many other African countries are ex British Empire, and why aren't they making homosexual marriage legal?
    Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the USA are also ex British Empire and also have legal homosexual marriage. The only African nation with legal homosexual marriage as mentioned ex British Empire South Africa

    The likely next leader of the Scottish National Party is however opposed to homosexual marriage
    So by you gotch eyed logic the BE was also responsible for apartheid? Fair enough.
    No, apartheid only came in once South Africa had become independent from the British Empire under Boer Afrikaner rule. Homosexual marriage is now legal in South Africa under Black majority rule
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,355
    OllyT said:

    The second issue would be how important do the public think misleading parliament to be? Now on pb we would all assume very but we aren't average joes.

    The hypocrisy and lying about partying during lockdown pretty much did for Johnson's premiership. All the polling indicated that it really cut through to the general population in a big way. I still think a substantial majority of voters want to seem him finally held to account.
    Some people are still joking about going to Barnard Castle to get their eyes tested. Quite surprised me!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,852
    Andy_JS said:

    Voting against Sunak's deal.

    Boris Johnson
    Liz Truss
    IDS
    Priti Patel
    John Redwood
    Peter Bone
    Jacob Rees-Mogg
    Mark Francois
    James Duddridge
    Andrea Jenkyns

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/22/conservative-mps-who-will-vote-against-ni-brexit-deal/

    The ultra nutters all in one vanilla square.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kinabalu said:

    There were many reasons to depose Boris Johnson and I was glad when it happened. None of those reasons (in my opinion) were that he let No. 10 employees have a shred of respite from their crappy lives by gathering together for some cheap wine and crisps. I also think that Boris's public announcements at the time were clearly with a large 'nod and wink' to people to interpret the rules sensibly rather than follow them to the letter.

    Agreed. It was the relentless lying. You can't be PM if you lie more often than you tell the truth.
    Er, Boris Johnson disproved that theory, for 3 years and 44 days (according to wiki).
  • Harriet Harman

    Not relying on Sue Gray report
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,160

    kinabalu said:

    There were many reasons to depose Boris Johnson and I was glad when it happened. None of those reasons (in my opinion) were that he let No. 10 employees have a shred of respite from their crappy lives by gathering together for some cheap wine and crisps. I also think that Boris's public announcements at the time were clearly with a large 'nod and wink' to people to interpret the rules sensibly rather than follow them to the letter.

    Agreed. It was the relentless lying. You can't be PM if you lie more often than you tell the truth.
    Er, Boris Johnson disproved that theory, for 3 years and 44 days (according to wiki).
    A better defence for Boris would be "Of course everyone knows I sometimes tell absolute whoppers, but not about things that really matter". Would still be a lie, but would be a better look than all these pathetic excuses.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640

    Harriet Harman

    Not relying on Sue Gray report

    She has brought her own rope (round her neck)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267

    FPT :

    Sunak is definitely upping his game. A more pragmatic and less ideologically Thatcherite approach to the strikes, improved Commons performances, and a general sense of him growing into the role.

    Some partial improvements in the polls as a result ; it won't be enough to win the Tories the next election, but he might be the only force that could save them from a terrible reduction in seats , and rescue them from irrelevance.

    Sunak growing into the role of PM is precisely what Boris failed to do. Great to see the difference between the two.
    Boris sank into the role of PM, going native and locking the country down unnecessarily and worse keeping us locked down even after the country had vaccinated the vulnerable.

    Had we not had a lockdown, then Boris would probably still be PM now.
    What a ludicrous post. You quite often rewrite reality, this is perhaps your most outrageous attempt.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,466
    The Leith Docks incident is quite bad - doctors being called in for emergency shifts.

    I live close by and it has been incredibly gusty today. A friend works in similar dry dock at the moment and can't believe what's happened.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,597
    ping said:

    Fpt (Uganda Homophobia);

    felix said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga and the events at Namuwongo, in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key founding myths of the (otherwise improbable) Ugandan nation.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    I was waiting for the first one to blame us for this vote...

    Sean_F said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key Ugandan founding myths.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    It’s more of a reaction against colonialism.

    France abolished laws against gay sex in 1791, so, it was never a crime in the French Empire. But most former French colonies made it so, after independence.

    Most former British colonies made the laws more stringent.
    It will still be our fault, somehow.
    These post by @Casino_Royale & @felix display extreme ignorance. You’ve both chosen to misrepresent what I posted and turn it into a cheap point in the British right wing culture war.

    Do you have even the most basic understanding of Ugandan history? Or the political debate about homosexuality in Uganda since the mid 2000’s?

    You don’t think Namugongo is relevant? Why is Uganda so much more hostile to homosexuality vis-a-vis other African countries?

    If you are remotely interested/concerned about homophobia in Uganda, you have to understand the political weaponisation of the Uganda martyrs in the project of nation building.

    As I said, they’ve taken our colonial bullshit and run with it. How is that not true?
    I'm not sure there are many with enough knowledge to argue with you either way - though from what I can gather, the martyrs shortly predated the British colonial administration ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,802

    Somewhat polemical but there is a lot of truth in this interview from CNN.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK4y6C1Uuhw

    It isn't clear where developed countries are going in the long term regards family formation, fertility rates and male inclusion.

    The problem being that religious people have larger families and hence evolution is working against common sense?
  • Boris swearing on the bible
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,799

    FPT :

    Sunak is definitely upping his game. A more pragmatic and less ideologically Thatcherite approach to the strikes, improved Commons performances, and a general sense of him growing into the role.

    Some partial improvements in the polls as a result ; it won't be enough to win the Tories the next election, but he might be the only force that could save them from a terrible reduction in seats , and rescue them from irrelevance.

    Sunak growing into the role of PM is precisely what Boris failed to do. Great to see the difference between the two.
    Boris sank into the role of PM, going native and locking the country down unnecessarily and worse keeping us locked down even after the country had vaccinated the vulnerable.

    Had we not had a lockdown, then Boris would probably still be PM now.
    It's an interesting counterfactual. Could he really have ridden out the hysteria if we had followed the Swedish approach?
    Interesting article:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-opinion-lessons-learned-from-covid-pandemic-global-comparison/
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,802
    The clown taking an oath; how much is that worth?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,466
    This is brutal already. Having the big TVs in the room is pure theatre.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,191
    Showtime! :D
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,621

    Boris swearing on the bible

    And ending "so help me God" which aiui is an Americanism.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,385
    IanB2 said:

    The clown taking an oath; how much is that worth?

    God on standby with his smiting stick.....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267
    edited March 2023

    Boris swearing on the bible

    Which profanity did he use?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    Boris says "hand on heart I did not lie to the house"

    Big BBC banner covering up his fingers
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,802

    FPT :

    Sunak is definitely upping his game. A more pragmatic and less ideologically Thatcherite approach to the strikes, improved Commons performances, and a general sense of him growing into the role.

    Some partial improvements in the polls as a result ; it won't be enough to win the Tories the next election, but he might be the only force that could save them from a terrible reduction in seats , and rescue them from irrelevance.

    Sunak growing into the role of PM is precisely what Boris failed to do. Great to see the difference between the two.
    Boris sank into the role of PM, going native and locking the country down unnecessarily and worse keeping us locked down even after the country had vaccinated the vulnerable.

    Had we not had a lockdown, then Boris would probably still be PM now.
    It's an interesting counterfactual. Could he really have ridden out the hysteria if we had followed the Swedish approach?
    Nevertheless in the round Sweden came out no better and no worse than us in terms of health outcomes and with a lot less economic and hidden social damage.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,597

    Boris swearing on the bible

    No smoke rising ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,802
    kamski said:

    kinabalu said:

    There were many reasons to depose Boris Johnson and I was glad when it happened. None of those reasons (in my opinion) were that he let No. 10 employees have a shred of respite from their crappy lives by gathering together for some cheap wine and crisps. I also think that Boris's public announcements at the time were clearly with a large 'nod and wink' to people to interpret the rules sensibly rather than follow them to the letter.

    Agreed. It was the relentless lying. You can't be PM if you lie more often than you tell the truth.
    Er, Boris Johnson disproved that theory, for 3 years and 44 days (according to wiki).
    A better defence for Boris would be "Of course everyone knows I sometimes tell absolute whoppers, but not about things that really matter". Would still be a lie, but would be a better look than all these pathetic excuses.
    So far it’s “the dog most definitely ate my homework……”
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,621

    Can someone post link(s) for livestreaming Boris Johnson doing his Benny Hill impersonation today?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgzLEjZUPso

    https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/b9859dd9-ee83-4af2-ae71-9fac617dc570
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,746
    IanB2 said:

    The clown taking an oath; how much is that worth?

    A double headed penny.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    "Dominic Cummings has a motive to lie"

    Asks for ALL evidence before the Committee to be published"
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,802
    He’s supposed to be giving evidence but is already into rebuttal, arguing the small print over what the committee has and hasn’t done.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,180
    biggles said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    Fpt (Uganda Homophobia);


    felix said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga and the events at Namuwongo, in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key founding myths of the (otherwise improbable) Ugandan nation.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    I was waiting for the first one to blame us for this vote...

    Sean_F said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key Ugandan founding myths.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    It’s more of a reaction against colonialism.

    France abolished laws against gay sex in 1791, so, it was never a crime in the French Empire. But most former French colonies made it so, after independence.

    Most former British colonies made the laws more stringent.
    It will still be our fault, somehow.
    These post by @Casino_Royale & @felix display extreme ignorance. You’ve both chosen to misrepresent what I posted and turn it into a cheap point in the British right wing culture war.

    Do you have even the most basic understanding of Ugandan history? Or the political debate about homosexuality in Uganda since the mid 2000’s?

    You don’t think Namugongo is relevant? Why is Uganda so much more hostile to homosexuality vis-a-vis other African countries?

    If you are remotely interested/concerned about homophobia in Uganda, you have to understand the political weaponisation of the Uganda martyrs in the project of nation building.

    As I said, they’ve taken our colonial bullshit and run with it. How is that not true?
    Homosexuality is also illegal in most of the former French colonies in North Africa. South Africa though, which was part of the British Empire, is the only African nation where homosexual marriage is legal

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
    Legality is one thing, day-to-day social/religious/state repression, another.

    Life can be pretty shitty for queers in SA, despite its legality, while being surprisingly unproblematic for queers in other places where homosexuality is illegal.

    Homophobia in Uganda is a bit a special case. It is intrinsically linked to colonialism and the legacy of the king of Buganda - Kabaka Mwanga II’s tyrannical rule - his sexual abuse of his male pages, their conversion to Christianity and execution.

    The founding myth of the entire, fragile post-colonial entity that is Uganda is rooted in their ancestors being martyred for standing against homosexuality. Ugandans largely buy into this interpretation of their history and for many is a key foundation of their faith.

    We would see it as a simple abuse of power, the homosexuality and religious angles, unimportant.

    But that ain’t how your average Ugandan sees it.

    For Museveni, homophobia/homosexuality also plays into his management of the complex relationship between the centre (and the other tribes) and the Baganda.

    Last nights vote in Kampala cannot be explained without reference to British colonialism.

    The PB right wingers are just, flat out wrong.
    I always understood that Mwanga was a link to an older Ugandan tradition of being very open to gay and trans people within its culture. I assumed the point you were making was that we came in and ended that by applying our 19th century Christian laws, and now they are stuck with them and the religion that grew out of what we gave them.

    I’m interested if it’s more complex than that?
    Given that he murdered the pages, prior to Uganda becoming a British Protectorate, it’s not immediately apparent that the British are to blame.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    "The photographs released are misleading and out of context"
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267
    'kin' 'ell!

    The aroma of bullsh*t in that room must be unbearable.
  • WF vote called
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,629
    edited March 2023
    IanB2 said:

    FPT :

    Sunak is definitely upping his game. A more pragmatic and less ideologically Thatcherite approach to the strikes, improved Commons performances, and a general sense of him growing into the role.

    Some partial improvements in the polls as a result ; it won't be enough to win the Tories the next election, but he might be the only force that could save them from a terrible reduction in seats , and rescue them from irrelevance.

    Sunak growing into the role of PM is precisely what Boris failed to do. Great to see the difference between the two.
    Boris sank into the role of PM, going native and locking the country down unnecessarily and worse keeping us locked down even after the country had vaccinated the vulnerable.

    Had we not had a lockdown, then Boris would probably still be PM now.
    It's an interesting counterfactual. Could he really have ridden out the hysteria if we had followed the Swedish approach?
    Nevertheless in the round Sweden came out no better and no worse than us in terms of health outcomes and with a lot less economic and hidden social damage.
    Quite a bit worse than comparable neighbours on deaths, though. And with restrictions not really that much looser than the UK - more stringent than UK at some time points - despite the initial hype.

    ETA: embed didn't work, but see comparison here (using the Oxford index).

    E2TA pic:


    E3TA: Not to trivialise the differences, which were substantial, particularly in first lockdown periods
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    Boris is now off to vote against the Government!!

    Resumes in 15 mins.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267
    Saved by the bell.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited March 2023
    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Fpt (Uganda Homophobia);

    felix said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga and the events at Namuwongo, in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key founding myths of the (otherwise improbable) Ugandan nation.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    I was waiting for the first one to blame us for this vote...

    Sean_F said:

    ping said:

    Contemporary Ugandan attitudes towards homosexuality are heavily influenced by the legacy of Kabaka Mwanga in the 1880’s.

    It’s one of the key Ugandan founding myths.

    Very little journalism covering the story shows any understanding of this.

    They’ve taken our bullshit colonialism and run with it.

    It’s more of a reaction against colonialism.

    France abolished laws against gay sex in 1791, so, it was never a crime in the French Empire. But most former French colonies made it so, after independence.

    Most former British colonies made the laws more stringent.
    It will still be our fault, somehow.
    These post by @Casino_Royale & @felix display extreme ignorance. You’ve both chosen to misrepresent what I posted and turn it into a cheap point in the British right wing culture war.

    Do you have even the most basic understanding of Ugandan history? Or the political debate about homosexuality in Uganda since the mid 2000’s?

    You don’t think Namugongo is relevant? Why is Uganda so much more hostile to homosexuality vis-a-vis other African countries?

    If you are remotely interested/concerned about homophobia in Uganda, you have to understand the political weaponisation of the Uganda martyrs in the project of nation building.

    As I said, they’ve taken our colonial bullshit and run with it. How is that not true?
    I'm not sure there are many with enough knowledge to argue with you either way - though from what I can gather, the martyrs shortly predated the British colonial administration ?
    Not so much predate as a (the?) key event in the establishment of the colonial administration. That’s my point.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Boris swearing on the bible

    And ending "so help me God" which aiui is an Americanism.
    Martin Luther was an American?

    "I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen." - Martin Luther 1581
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,870

    Boris swearing on the bible

    And ending "so help me God" which aiui is an Americanism.
    A similar form to the parliamentary oath:

    https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/swearingin/
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267

    Boris is now off to vote against the Government!!

    Resumes in 15 mins.

    It's a ****in' pantomime. Just give the ***er a ten day ban, and let nature run its course.
  • Nick Leeson, the ex-derivatives trader who brought down Barings Bank, has joined a corporate intelligence firm run by Harvey Weinstein’s former private investigator.

    Mr Leeson, who described himself as the “original rogue trader”, has joined London-based Red Mist to help investors seek compensation in court when regulators are unable to help.

    The company has been set up by Seth Freedman, a former operative of controversial private spying agency Black Cube.

    Mr Freedman’s career has included time as an undercover investigator for the disgraced movie producer Harvey Weinstein. In 2018 he left Black Cube, which is run by veterans of Israeli intelligence, and set up Red Mist in 2021.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/22/rogue-trader-who-brought-barings-bank-makes-comeback-private/
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Boris swearing on the bible

    And ending "so help me God" which aiui is an Americanism.
    Martin Luther was an American?

    "I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen." - Martin Luther 1581
    EDIT - phrase was also part of oath prescribed by US Judiciary Act of 1789.

    AND it is the title of Mike Pence's autobiography.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,728
    IanB2 said:

    Somewhat polemical but there is a lot of truth in this interview from CNN.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK4y6C1Uuhw

    It isn't clear where developed countries are going in the long term regards family formation, fertility rates and male inclusion.

    The problem being that religious people have larger families and hence evolution is working against common sense?
    Declining religious views may be a factor but it isn't what the interviewee is talking about. More single people, fewer children, an ageing population and an increasing number of men bereft of purpose, drive and optimism.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,802

    IanB2 said:

    Somewhat polemical but there is a lot of truth in this interview from CNN.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK4y6C1Uuhw

    It isn't clear where developed countries are going in the long term regards family formation, fertility rates and male inclusion.

    The problem being that religious people have larger families and hence evolution is working against common sense?
    Declining religious views may be a factor but it isn't what the interviewee is talking about. More single people, fewer children, an ageing population and an increasing number of men bereft of purpose, drive and optimism.
    Like those of us reduced to sadly sitting alone and posting comment on PB all day? Including some claiming otherwise to be internationally renowned authors and travel correspondents?
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,119

    Boris swearing on the bible

    And ending "so help me God" which aiui is an Americanism.
    Martin Luther was an American?

    "I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen." - Martin Luther 1581
    Presumably Luther actually said or wrote that in Latin or German; choice of wording in English would be down to the translator. I found a version online that picks "May God help me", for instance.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,728
    edited March 2023
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Somewhat polemical but there is a lot of truth in this interview from CNN.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK4y6C1Uuhw

    It isn't clear where developed countries are going in the long term regards family formation, fertility rates and male inclusion.

    The problem being that religious people have larger families and hence evolution is working against common sense?
    Declining religious views may be a factor but it isn't what the interviewee is talking about. More single people, fewer children, an ageing population and an increasing number of men bereft of purpose, drive and optimism.
    Like those of us reduced to sadly sitting alone and posting comment on PB all day? Including some claiming otherwise to be internationally renowned authors and travel correspondents?
    Some of those drawing attention to the issue may be annoying but the problem is very real.

    I'll admit as a 40 year old single man that I'm part of the problem I guess! Whilst some on the left blame post-2010 austerity and expensive UK childcare, I hadn't realised how much it is true of other western countries as well. The trend is similar.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,375

    Boris swearing on the bible

    And ending "so help me God" which aiui is an Americanism.
    Martin Luther was an American?

    "I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen." - Martin Luther 1581
    Luther died in 1546. The probably apocryphal words are attributed to Luther at the Diet of Worms 1521.

  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,879
    Selebian said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT :

    Sunak is definitely upping his game. A more pragmatic and less ideologically Thatcherite approach to the strikes, improved Commons performances, and a general sense of him growing into the role.

    Some partial improvements in the polls as a result ; it won't be enough to win the Tories the next election, but he might be the only force that could save them from a terrible reduction in seats , and rescue them from irrelevance.

    Sunak growing into the role of PM is precisely what Boris failed to do. Great to see the difference between the two.
    Boris sank into the role of PM, going native and locking the country down unnecessarily and worse keeping us locked down even after the country had vaccinated the vulnerable.

    Had we not had a lockdown, then Boris would probably still be PM now.
    It's an interesting counterfactual. Could he really have ridden out the hysteria if we had followed the Swedish approach?
    Nevertheless in the round Sweden came out no better and no worse than us in terms of health outcomes and with a lot less economic and hidden social damage.
    Quite a bit worse than comparable neighbours on deaths, though. And with restrictions not really that much looser than the UK - more stringent than UK at some time points - despite the initial hype.

    ETA: embed didn't work, but see comparison here (using the Oxford index).

    E2TA pic:


    E3TA: Not to trivialise the differences, which were substantial, particularly in first lockdown periods
    One big difference in those two charts is the much greater number of steps in the UK one. How much of that is a function of us having four governments all able to do slightly different things?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,227
    Sunak already thrown under a bus by Johnson .

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772
    Boris just sitting in the corner throwing s*** all over everyone else and himself.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,375
    pm215 said:

    Boris swearing on the bible

    And ending "so help me God" which aiui is an Americanism.
    Martin Luther was an American?

    "I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen." - Martin Luther 1581
    Presumably Luther actually said or wrote that in Latin or German; choice of wording in English would be down to the translator. I found a version online that picks "May God help me", for instance.
    "Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders. Amen"
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,802
    The clown really is determined to argue the small print, which isn’t a good look.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,420
    nico679 said:

    Sunak already thrown under a bus by Johnson .

    But then as the bus passes Johnson looks to the other side of the road and sees Sunak standing there smiling, unharmed, the bus having passed over him, still PM and still considerably richer than Boris.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    "You cannot seriously be trying to accuse me of deceiving Parliament"

    I think they can and are
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    algarkirk said:

    Boris swearing on the bible

    And ending "so help me God" which aiui is an Americanism.
    Martin Luther was an American?

    "I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen." - Martin Luther 1581
    Luther died in 1546. The probably apocryphal words are attributed to Luther at the Diet of Worms 1521.

    Thanks for correcting my typo!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    "I cannot put an electronic forcefield round every human being"

    Has someone said he should have?
  • WF vote

    515 - 29
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,396
    MPs vote 515 to 29 for the Stormont Brake
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267

    Boris just sitting in the corner throwing s*** all over everyone else and himself.

    A dirty protest?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    algarkirk said:

    pm215 said:

    Boris swearing on the bible

    And ending "so help me God" which aiui is an Americanism.
    Martin Luther was an American?

    "I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen." - Martin Luther 1581
    Presumably Luther actually said or wrote that in Latin or German; choice of wording in English would be down to the translator. I found a version online that picks "May God help me", for instance.
    "Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders. Amen"
    Source? (Mine for English translation was wiki.)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,897
    @BestForBritain
    This letter in yesterday’s @thetimes, about a young Boris Johnson caught making stuff up during his very first attempt to become a Tory candidate, is amazing. ~AA

    https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1638257278062141441
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772
    Only 29 noes!!!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640

    WF vote

    515 - 29

    Any none Borisites in the 29??
  • HYUFD said:

    MPs vote 515 to 29 for the Stormont Brake

    Disaster for ERG
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    515 vs 29
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,385

    WF vote

    515 - 29

    About 20 Tories plus DUP?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772
    23 Tories voting no apparently. Disaster for the ERG.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    Such a pathetic argument from Johnson. Shameful, arrogant, not surprising I guess
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,191

    HYUFD said:

    MPs vote 515 to 29 for the Stormont Brake

    Disaster for ERG
    Lets hope the ERG finally get the message that people have had enough of endless Brexit debate and want to move on...
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,879

    WF vote

    515 - 29

    About 20 Tories plus DUP?
    Sounds right. So much for the "only got it through with opposition votes".
  • 23 Tories voting no apparently. Disaster for the ERG.

    Who was the poster who predicted 100-150 Tory rebels?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027

    23 Tories voting no apparently. Disaster for the ERG.

    Lol - I am heartened to see the ERG crumble
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    edited March 2023
    "I will believe to the day I die that my attendance at any of these events was illegal"

    When is the funeral?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,254
    Parts of Ukraine are increasingly becoming how I imagine parts of the WW! western front to be.

    https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1638478272882245634

    With added turret-tossing Russian tanks.

    What an absolute tragic waste.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,691

    23 Tories voting no apparently. Disaster for the ERG.

    Very encouraging - suggests that certain people may now be starting to grow up.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,597
    Scott_xP said:

    @BestForBritain
    This letter in yesterday’s @thetimes, about a young Boris Johnson caught making stuff up during his very first attempt to become a Tory candidate, is amazing. ~AA

    https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1638257278062141441

    "...After a third time, he finally admitted it was not true.."

    He's come a long way since.
    The committee are going to have to be a lot more persistent than that.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267
    I am just hearing "blah, blah, blah", if you can't blind with science, baffle with bullsh*t.

    It's not about Partygate, it is about LYING to Parliament.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,597

    23 Tories voting no apparently. Disaster for the ERG.

    Who was the poster who predicted 100-150 Tory rebels?
    Dudders ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,799
    Selebian said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT :

    Sunak is definitely upping his game. A more pragmatic and less ideologically Thatcherite approach to the strikes, improved Commons performances, and a general sense of him growing into the role.

    Some partial improvements in the polls as a result ; it won't be enough to win the Tories the next election, but he might be the only force that could save them from a terrible reduction in seats , and rescue them from irrelevance.

    Sunak growing into the role of PM is precisely what Boris failed to do. Great to see the difference between the two.
    Boris sank into the role of PM, going native and locking the country down unnecessarily and worse keeping us locked down even after the country had vaccinated the vulnerable.

    Had we not had a lockdown, then Boris would probably still be PM now.
    It's an interesting counterfactual. Could he really have ridden out the hysteria if we had followed the Swedish approach?
    Nevertheless in the round Sweden came out no better and no worse than us in terms of health outcomes and with a lot less economic and hidden social damage.
    Quite a bit worse than comparable neighbours on deaths, though. And with restrictions not really that much looser than the UK - more stringent than UK at some time points - despite the initial hype.

    ETA: embed didn't work, but see comparison here (using the Oxford index).

    E2TA pic:


    E3TA: Not to trivialise the differences, which were substantial, particularly in first lockdown periods
    As I posted, a good BBG article:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-opinion-lessons-learned-from-covid-pandemic-global-comparison/

    Sweden looks like it had 50% of the excess deaths per million vs UK. It did worse than its neighbours but better than most of Europe so make of that what you will.

    In particular it is worth quoting this bit in full:

    "On some of those measures, Sweden has objectively fared better than countries that prescribed lockdowns. Its young people are doing especially well compared to those of other nations.

    "According to an analysis of 15 countries, youngsters on average lost a third of a year’s worth of learning during the pandemic. Unsurprisingly, kids from poor households suffered most. By contrast, a different paper found that Swedish students showed no learning gaps in literacy at all (math skills weren’t part of the study). Nor did the pandemic exacerbate the deficits of less-well-off children.

    "The evidence on mental health tells a similar story. An analysis of 11 countries that had lockdowns and school closures shows that depression and anxiety increased dramatically among young people. By contrast, a study of Swedish university students found negligible effects on depression, and even small improvements in anxiety and stress."
  • Today is a very good day for Sunak with a good PMQs, the irrelevance of the ERG, and humiliation of Johnson
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,802

    Boris just sitting in the corner throwing s*** all over everyone else and himself.

    A dirty protest?
    It makes a change from all of us being the ones getting dirty…
  • I am just hearing "blah, blah, blah", if you can't blind with science, baffle with bullsh*t.

    It's not about Partygate, it is about LYING to Parliament.

    The expression 'he protests too much' comes to mind and my good lady has just said this is painful to listen to
This discussion has been closed.