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The 2023 Budget – open thread – politicalbetting.com

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  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,249
    MaxPB said:

    So far it's actually a good budget, I'm shocked.

    It would be kind of ironic if, once again, a Conservative government starts governing in a sane fashion just in time to usher in a Labour government who get to take advantage of their prudence.

    Once your electorate has given up you ever getting anything right, it’s hard to win them back.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,797
    MaxPB said:

    So far it's actually a good budget, I'm shocked.

    They always seem that way on the day though (well, apart from Kwazi's). The potholes in the road become a bit clearer over the following 48 hours.

    No full expensing for industrial or infrastructure assets, which seems a very odd decision given that's where we're really behind.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,196

    MaxPB said:

    What's with this swimming pools policy? Who cares about that kind of detail?

    All about the aspiration


    That looks more like a pond.. :D
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,249

    OBR says inflation will fall from 10.7 to 2.9% this year

    That is huge and shows why the government is resisting high pay awards

    The Government is resisting high pay awards? So the Triple Lock has been abolished?

    Or is it only paying those who work for a living that's being cut in real terms?
    We know the answer to this one already sadly.
  • Meanwhile in Europe:

    Credit Suisse share trading suspended, sparking carnage in banking market across Europe as SVB fallout spreads

    Shares in the Swiss bank collapse by 23 per cent, with other big banks hit as fallout from SVB collapse spreads

    Major European banks saw billions wiped off their share prices today as fears over the safety of their balance sheets swept the market.

    At one point, five big European banks saw trading in their shares temporarily halted following big falls in their share prices as the fallout from the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank continued to spread.


    https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/money/credit-suisse-share-trading-suspended-sparking-carnage-in-banking-market-across-europe-2210147

    Is this more serious than was being presented last week ?

    Paging City insiders such as MaxPB, OnlyLivingBoy or Kinabalu.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612
    MaxPB said:

    What's with this swimming pools policy? Who cares about that kind of detail?

    People who use them.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589
    TimS said:

    MaxPB said:

    So far it's actually a good budget, I'm shocked.

    They always seem that way on the day though (well, apart from Kwazi's). The potholes in the road become a bit clearer over the following 48 hours.

    No full expensing for industrial or infrastructure assets, which seems a very odd decision given that's where we're really behind.
    I think it does include infrastructure, but he just didn't mention it. At least that's what was briefed, will need to wait for the detail.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612
    edited March 2023

    OBR says inflation will fall from 10.7 to 2.9% this year

    That is huge and shows why the government is resisting high pay awards

    So they can give everyone a one off payout and hope they don't notice ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,411
    Work capability assessment abolished, disabled benefit claimants won't lose benefits working. Universal support funds for the disabled
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    What's with this swimming pools policy? Who cares about that kind of detail?

    People who use them.
    Yes but not to announce in the budget.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,797
    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    MaxPB said:

    So far it's actually a good budget, I'm shocked.

    They always seem that way on the day though (well, apart from Kwazi's). The potholes in the road become a bit clearer over the following 48 hours.

    No full expensing for industrial or infrastructure assets, which seems a very odd decision given that's where we're really behind.
    I think it does include infrastructure, but he just didn't mention it. At least that's what was briefed, will need to wait for the detail.
    Seems to be IT, plant and machinery i.e. mainly the main CAs pool, but not industrial buildings or LLAs but let's see
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589

    Meanwhile in Europe:

    Credit Suisse share trading suspended, sparking carnage in banking market across Europe as SVB fallout spreads

    Shares in the Swiss bank collapse by 23 per cent, with other big banks hit as fallout from SVB collapse spreads

    Major European banks saw billions wiped off their share prices today as fears over the safety of their balance sheets swept the market.

    At one point, five big European banks saw trading in their shares temporarily halted following big falls in their share prices as the fallout from the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank continued to spread.


    https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/money/credit-suisse-share-trading-suspended-sparking-carnage-in-banking-market-across-europe-2210147

    Is this more serious than was being presented last week ?

    Paging City insiders such as MaxPB, OnlyLivingBoy or Kinabalu.
    Not for the UK, again, UK banks are ring fenced and highly capitalised. The contagion is minimal.
  • Its a very Hunt budget isn't it. A lot of good little bits and pieces. Childcare is very good. The energy move is long trailed and obvious but welcome all the same. I'm not sure there is anything too controversial or exciting or radical but no doubt that is by design. Tied into the Windsor deal it shows a potential route to calm confidence and presenting as 'safety first' in the GE.

    Or it would if the Cons weren't trying to ride two horses simultaneously. This stuff all appeals to the very people who really hate the Govt hypocrisy over the small boats. It also can't mend the basic issue with presenting as 'safety first'. A vote for Rishi in a couple of years would see a conman like Johnson or an idiot like Truss back at the wheel. Con MPs and members have form in such things.

    So I won't be returning to the Con fold until they have convinced me they can be trusted and that will take a lot longer than a couple of years
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612
    HYUFD said:

    £20 billion for Carbon Capture and Storage

    Depending on how it's spent, either very interesting, or a huge waste of money.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,629
    HYUFD said:

    Hunt increases potholes fund by £200 million

    Wrong priority. Potholes are something this country isn't short of. :wink:
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,728
    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile in Europe:

    Credit Suisse share trading suspended, sparking carnage in banking market across Europe as SVB fallout spreads

    Shares in the Swiss bank collapse by 23 per cent, with other big banks hit as fallout from SVB collapse spreads

    Major European banks saw billions wiped off their share prices today as fears over the safety of their balance sheets swept the market.

    At one point, five big European banks saw trading in their shares temporarily halted following big falls in their share prices as the fallout from the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank continued to spread.


    https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/money/credit-suisse-share-trading-suspended-sparking-carnage-in-banking-market-across-europe-2210147

    Is this more serious than was being presented last week ?

    Paging City insiders such as MaxPB, OnlyLivingBoy or Kinabalu.
    Not for the UK, again, UK banks are ring fenced and highly capitalised. The contagion is minimal.
    How do you define highly capitalised? My understanding is the banks have very little capital by historic standards but a bit more than they had in 2008.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,718
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    What's with this swimming pools policy? Who cares about that kind of detail?

    People who use them.
    And don't have their own.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589

    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile in Europe:

    Credit Suisse share trading suspended, sparking carnage in banking market across Europe as SVB fallout spreads

    Shares in the Swiss bank collapse by 23 per cent, with other big banks hit as fallout from SVB collapse spreads

    Major European banks saw billions wiped off their share prices today as fears over the safety of their balance sheets swept the market.

    At one point, five big European banks saw trading in their shares temporarily halted following big falls in their share prices as the fallout from the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank continued to spread.


    https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/money/credit-suisse-share-trading-suspended-sparking-carnage-in-banking-market-across-europe-2210147

    Is this more serious than was being presented last week ?

    Paging City insiders such as MaxPB, OnlyLivingBoy or Kinabalu.
    Not for the UK, again, UK banks are ring fenced and highly capitalised. The contagion is minimal.
    How do you define highly capitalised? My understanding is the banks have very little capital by historic standards but a bit more than they had in 2008.
    The big banks run at ~10% which is plenty of buffer.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Pension lifetime allowance abolished.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589
    Abolishing the lifetime allowance. Again, I'm shocked, there's no half measures here.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,317
    HYUFD said:

    More money for Veterans affairs from Hunt

    I'm not sure that subsidising veterans' affairs is a good use of public money.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589
    This is the budget the Tories should have introduced in 2019, not 2023.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    MaxPB said:

    Abolishing the lifetime allowance. Again, I'm shocked, there's no half measures here.

    The prospect of being hanged at the next GE appears to have concentrated minds…
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612
    Nigelb said:

    OBR says inflation will fall from 10.7 to 2.9% this year

    That is huge and shows why the government is resisting high pay awards

    So they can give everyone a one off payout and hope they don't notice ?
    That should have read pay cut.
    Bloody autocorrect.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,385

    HYUFD said:

    More money for Veterans affairs from Hunt

    I'm not sure that subsidising veterans' affairs is a good use of public money.
    Sod it, bung them the odd candlelit dinner and a night in a Travel Lodge. They've served their country well.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,228

    Pension lifetime allowance abolished.

    For the few not the many
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,228
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt increases potholes fund by £200 million

    Good priority, but potholes seem to vary dramatically from county to county.

    Where I live its not really a problem thankfully, but I recently had to drive to Blackburn and my goodness the roads are absolutely awful there. I would absolutely consider that a reason not to invest there.
    I read that news today, oh boy.
    That's very good :smile:
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,728
    MaxPB said:

    Abolishing the lifetime allowance. Again, I'm shocked, there's no half measures here.

    Not too sure about that. Raise it by all means but that seems remarkable. How much revenue will this cost us?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,385
    edited March 2023
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    £20 billion for Carbon Capture and Storage

    Depending on how it's spent, either very interesting, or a huge waste of money.
    Pretty much every voter will think £20 billion on carbon capture should have gone on the NHS instead. Unsellable.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589

    MaxPB said:

    Abolishing the lifetime allowance. Again, I'm shocked, there's no half measures here.

    Not too sure about that. Raise it by all means but that seems remarkable. How much revenue will this cost us?
    I'm not sure but this would have been the perfect budget to also get rid of the £100k cliff edge and other marginal rates.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,085
    And for anyone hoping for an end to the staffing issues in the public sector,

    Chx announces that departmental spending will still rise by just 1% a year post election. Yet we are expecting a big package for childcare and defence. This implies a very tough time for other spending areas.

    https://twitter.com/PJTheEconomist/status/1635985760875577344
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,502
    What does Keir go on in his rebuttal, after this? Inflation and the NHS?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    £20 billion for Carbon Capture and Storage

    Depending on how it's spent, either very interesting, or a huge waste of money.
    Pretty much every voter will think £20 billion on carbon capture should have gone on the NHS instead. Unsellable.
    But that's true for everything, "why give big companies a £9bn tax cut, give £9bn to the NHS instead".
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    £20 billion for Carbon Capture and Storage

    Depending on how it's spent, either very interesting, or a huge waste of money.
    Pretty much every voter will think £20 billion on carbon capture should have gone on the NHS instead. Unsellable.
    Perhaps.
    But nonetheless rather important how it's spent, if they going to do that.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,694
    Childcare comes in April 24, SEPT 24, Sept 25.

    Points to GE in Oct 24?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612
    carnforth said:

    What does Keir go on in his rebuttal, after this? Inflation and the NHS?

    Welcome the adoption of some Labour policy and carp at the rest.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,502
    I like this deputy speaker. "Stop it!"
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589
    carnforth said:

    What does Keir go on in his rebuttal, after this? Inflation and the NHS?

    Probably the £9bn corporation tax cut, give it to the NHS etc...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612
    Dear god, I'm glad I'm not listening live.
    ...Hunt says he want more older people to return to work – although as someone aged 56, he prefers the term experienced, he says.

    Referring to Dame Eleanor Laing, who is in the chair as deputy speaker, he says: “Madam Deputy Speaker I say this not to flatter you but older people are the most skilled and experienced people.”

    If that was a joke, it did not seem to work. MPs seem to think he was being rude...
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,502
    Nigelb said:

    Dear god, I'm glad I'm not listening live.
    ...Hunt says he want more older people to return to work – although as someone aged 56, he prefers the term experienced, he says.

    Referring to Dame Eleanor Laing, who is in the chair as deputy speaker, he says: “Madam Deputy Speaker I say this not to flatter you but older people are the most skilled and experienced people.”

    If that was a joke, it did not seem to work. MPs seem to think he was being rude...

    It was a bit cringe, but he played it off ok.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612
    Rich folks' accountants are going to get rather excited about the avoidance possibilities presented here ?
    ...Hunt says he will abolish lifetime allowance for tax-free pensions savings, and raise annual allowance to £60,000
    Hunt says he is going to increase the annual pensions tax free allowance from £40,000 to £60,000.

    And he says instead of just lifting the lifetime allowance (currently just over £1m), he will abolish it...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,411
    edited March 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Dear god, I'm glad I'm not listening live.
    ...Hunt says he want more older people to return to work – although as someone aged 56, he prefers the term experienced, he says.

    Referring to Dame Eleanor Laing, who is in the chair as deputy speaker, he says: “Madam Deputy Speaker I say this not to flatter you but older people are the most skilled and experienced people.”

    If that was a joke, it did not seem to work. MPs seem to think he was being rude...

    Could have been a little better phrased for Dame Eleanor who is certainly still admirably serving Epping Forest as their MP but still only in her mid 60s
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612
    Moved on to making commitments for the next Labour government.

    "Hunt says he wants schools to offer wraparound care from 8am to 6pm by 2026"
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    edited March 2023

    MaxPB said:

    Abolishing the lifetime allowance. Again, I'm shocked, there's no half measures here.

    Not too sure about that. Raise it by all means but that seems remarkable. How much revenue will this cost us?
    The hope is it raises almost as much in income tax from people who now have incentive to work again, as it costs in tax revenue from abandoning the allowance itself.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589
    Starmer's voice is extremely irritating.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589
    He really is no Blair.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,836
    Nigelb said:

    Dear god, I'm glad I'm not listening live.
    ...Hunt says he want more older people to return to work – although as someone aged 56, he prefers the term experienced, he says.

    Referring to Dame Eleanor Laing, who is in the chair as deputy speaker, he says: “Madam Deputy Speaker I say this not to flatter you but older people are the most skilled and experienced people.”

    If that was a joke, it did not seem to work. MPs seem to think he was being rude...

    Pass the sick bag.
    Stick to the air of rat-eyed competence Jezza, we'll do the jokes.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,887

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    £20 billion for Carbon Capture and Storage

    Depending on how it's spent, either very interesting, or a huge waste of money.
    Pretty much every voter will think £20 billion on carbon capture should have gone on the NHS instead. Unsellable.
    Yeah, but that's true of most things the government needs to spend money on.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,317
    MaxPB said:

    Starmer's voice is extremely irritating.

    Killer point.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,411
    Wraparound childcare so parents can drop off their children at school and pick up between 8am and 6pm
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589
    edited March 2023

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer's voice is extremely irritating.

    Killer point.
    I think a lot of people have never really listened to him, I haven't. He's extremely irritating.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,665
    What's all that waffle from the Speaker? Is that normal? Can't recall it before.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,629
    Nigelb said:

    Rich folks' accountants are going to get rather excited about the avoidance possibilities presented here ?
    ...Hunt says he will abolish lifetime allowance for tax-free pensions savings, and raise annual allowance to £60,000
    Hunt says he is going to increase the annual pensions tax free allowance from £40,000 to £60,000.

    And he says instead of just lifting the lifetime allowance (currently just over £1m), he will abolish it...

    Hmm, that's ambiguous. I take it he's raising the lifetime allowance to ∞, not abolishing the allowance and so taxing everything?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,355
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer's voice is extremely irritating.

    Killer point.
    I think a lot of people have never really listened to him, I haven't. He's extremely irritating.
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer's voice is extremely irritating.

    Killer point.
    I think a lot of people have never really listened to him, I haven't. He's extremely irritating.
    Sounds OK to me, but then so did Hunt.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,638
    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm normally pretty cool on government giving out massive sweeties - because ir's not a giveaway, it's a redistribution, and though there are strong cases for redistribution, redistribution does not tend to make us, collectively, richer.
    But if the government does go ahead with the proposed 30 hours free childcare for 1 and 2 year olds (extending fron what 3 year olds currently get) it will be the best public spending commitment of my lifetime (the special and conplex case of furlough aside).
    I won't personally be affected - I'm through that stage now. But the cost of childcare - along with the cost of housing - effectively makes raising the next generation almost unafforable apart from the very rich or very poor.
    I am massively supportive of this.
    If they can now go on and announce a massive programme of housebuilding (essential) and investment in transport infrastructure (personal hobbyhorse) then I can maybe be convinced that the state can be a force for good.

    I think the spectacularly high expense of HS2 was laid bare on the radio this morning with the 76 - 100 billion odd it's now going to cost (And the rest) juxtaposed against the 3 billion odd this childcare is going to cost p.a.

    I know one is capex and the other is ongoing cost - but still !
    If railways continue to cost 100s of billions, then we won’t have many more railways.

    To give an example - the marginal cost of a 155mm shell is £500, in mass production. So for a billion pounds, we could stockpile 2 million rounds of artillery ammunition.

    The SpaceX Starship program is probably going to cost £8 billion, to develop. So we could have a moon rocket, land some British astronauts on the moon, and probably have £80 billion left over.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,411
    Some good ideas there but nothing dramatic, certainly on tax.

    Rather a shrug shoulders budget in essence
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612
    MaxPB said:

    Starmer's voice is extremely irritating.

    It's a bit nasal and high pitched.
    And the way he says pee-pul grates a bit.

    Mildly irritating.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Rich folks' accountants are going to get rather excited about the avoidance possibilities presented here ?
    ...Hunt says he will abolish lifetime allowance for tax-free pensions savings, and raise annual allowance to £60,000
    Hunt says he is going to increase the annual pensions tax free allowance from £40,000 to £60,000.

    And he says instead of just lifting the lifetime allowance (currently just over £1m), he will abolish it...

    Hmm, that's ambiguous. I take it he's raising the lifetime allowance to ∞, not abolishing the allowance and so taxing everything?
    I think the specific wording was abolishing the limit on the lifetime allowance.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,385
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    £20 billion for Carbon Capture and Storage

    Depending on how it's spent, either very interesting, or a huge waste of money.
    Pretty much every voter will think £20 billion on carbon capture should have gone on the NHS instead. Unsellable.
    But that's true for everything, "why give big companies a £9bn tax cut, give £9bn to the NHS instead".
    "tax cut" for business to increase jobs is easier for voters to understand. Especially when there's an election staring you down both barrels.

    Most voters don't understand "carbon capture", and don't buy into it when they do.

    £20 billion would have pretty much built you the Cardiff tidal lagoon, powering 1.8 million houses from the tides. THAT they understand.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,638
    Taz said:

    Meanwhile in Europe:

    Credit Suisse share trading suspended, sparking carnage in banking market across Europe as SVB fallout spreads

    Shares in the Swiss bank collapse by 23 per cent, with other big banks hit as fallout from SVB collapse spreads

    Major European banks saw billions wiped off their share prices today as fears over the safety of their balance sheets swept the market.

    At one point, five big European banks saw trading in their shares temporarily halted following big falls in their share prices as the fallout from the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank continued to spread.


    https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/money/credit-suisse-share-trading-suspended-sparking-carnage-in-banking-market-across-europe-2210147

    Haven't they, and Deutsche Bank for that matter, been here before or very close to it.
    The reason that Debit Suisse and Douche Bank continue to exist is fairly overt support from respective governments.

    In particular DB is tied into German politics to a staggering degree. They have helped/donated to just about every party and politician.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612
    TEMPORARY full capital expensing for next three years. Big deal for big firms. Big mistake doing it temporarily - brings forward firms investment rather than increasing it
    https://twitter.com/TorstenBell/status/1635989754305998848
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,672
    Some people used to.think Gordon Mcdoom sounded OK but he sent shivers up my spine when he spoke... ditto with his mannerisms. UGH.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,720

    HYUFD said:

    £900 million for AI

    A project to be led by leading flint-knapper and AI obsessive @Leon
    It's going to be the best dinner he's ever had though. Pictures incoming - BRACE!
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,665
    HYUFD said:

    Some good ideas there but nothing dramatic, certainly on tax.

    Rather a shrug shoulders budget in essence

    It was a budget very much of a chancellor who wants to minimize defeat and then, as leader, conduct a party rebuilding project as a 'safe pair of hands'.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,228
    ohnotnow said:

    HYUFD said:

    £900 million for AI

    A project to be led by leading flint-knapper and AI obsessive @Leon
    It's going to be the best dinner he's ever had though. Pictures incoming - BRACE!
    When does his ban end ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,385
    HYUFD said:

    Some good ideas there but nothing dramatic, certainly on tax.

    Rather a shrug shoulders budget in essence

    We have to wait until the Autumn Statement for the big push on business, especially small business. That will be more the starting pistol for the run up to the election.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,638
    carnforth said:

    Oh God, Quantum computing still?

    Dude, I have this plan.

    It involves creating a new small sat space launch system. This will be used to launch a constellation of satellites, doing quantum cryptocurrency.

    #SendMeAllYourMoney
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,589
    Nigelb said:

    TEMPORARY full capital expensing for next three years. Big deal for big firms. Big mistake doing it temporarily - brings forward firms investment rather than increasing it
    https://twitter.com/TorstenBell/status/1635989754305998848

    I think that's an OBR enforced measure. I'll bet he wanted it to be made permanent and in any case I'd be surprised if it was removed, full expensing will just become part of doing business here as it is in the US.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,502

    carnforth said:

    Oh God, Quantum computing still?

    Dude, I have this plan.

    It involves creating a new small sat space launch system. This will be used to launch a constellation of satellites, doing quantum cryptocurrency.

    #SendMeAllYourMoney
    Does your plan involve Graphene? My boss's boss says it has to.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,411
    edited March 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Some good ideas there but nothing dramatic, certainly on tax.

    Rather a shrug shoulders budget in essence

    It was a budget very much of a chancellor who wants to minimize defeat and then, as leader, conduct a party rebuilding project as a 'safe pair of hands'.
    Hunt's only chance of being next Conservative leader is if Sunak gets a shock re election. If not he goes down on the ship with Rishi as Chancellor to Rishi's PM, they will be blamed for the defeat and the members will vote for a more rightwing leader after Rishi resigns
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Nigelb said:

    Rich folks' accountants are going to get rather excited about the avoidance possibilities presented here ?
    ...Hunt says he will abolish lifetime allowance for tax-free pensions savings, and raise annual allowance to £60,000
    Hunt says he is going to increase the annual pensions tax free allowance from £40,000 to £60,000.

    And he says instead of just lifting the lifetime allowance (currently just over £1m), he will abolish it...

    Not excited so much as concerned: there's no value in selling services designed to avoid the lifetime allowance if it doesn't exist.

    Taken to extremes, if you abolished all taxes, limits and allowances, there would be no need for tax accountants at all.
  • MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    £20 billion for Carbon Capture and Storage

    Depending on how it's spent, either very interesting, or a huge waste of money.
    Pretty much every voter will think £20 billion on carbon capture should have gone on the NHS instead. Unsellable.
    But that's true for everything, "why give big companies a £9bn tax cut, give £9bn to the NHS instead".
    "tax cut" for business to increase jobs is easier for voters to understand. Especially when there's an election staring you down both barrels.

    Most voters don't understand "carbon capture", and don't buy into it when they do.

    £20 billion would have pretty much built you the Cardiff tidal lagoon, powering 1.8 million houses from the tides. THAT they understand.
    I thought the Cardiff tidal lagoon was back on again, with the Blue Eden project?

    https://nation.cymru/news/green-light-expected-for-multi-billion-pound-tidal-lagoon-project/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,638
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Oh God, Quantum computing still?

    Dude, I have this plan.

    It involves creating a new small sat space launch system. This will be used to launch a constellation of satellites, doing quantum cryptocurrency.

    #SendMeAllYourMoney
    Does your plan involve Graphene? My boss's boss says it has to.
    Yes, also a secret formula for high temperature superconductors.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,612
    Re carbon capture:
    :...Papers accompanying the budget note that a shortlist of eligible projects for the first phase of CCS deployment will be announced “later this month.”.."
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,085

    HYUFD said:

    Some good ideas there but nothing dramatic, certainly on tax.

    Rather a shrug shoulders budget in essence

    It was a budget very much of a chancellor who wants to minimize defeat and then, as leader, conduct a party rebuilding project as a 'safe pair of hands'.
    We could all do a lot worse. Really, we could do A LOT worse. And quite possibly will.

    But yes, sensible stuff, let's see what falls out in the small print and remember that, for all the excitement, this year seems set to have a chunk of time which will feel like a recession for many people. With a dollop more pre-announced fiscal drag and public sector austerity.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,411

    Nigelb said:

    Dear god, I'm glad I'm not listening live.
    ...Hunt says he want more older people to return to work – although as someone aged 56, he prefers the term experienced, he says.

    Referring to Dame Eleanor Laing, who is in the chair as deputy speaker, he says: “Madam Deputy Speaker I say this not to flatter you but older people are the most skilled and experienced people.”

    If that was a joke, it did not seem to work. MPs seem to think he was being rude...

    Eleanor Lang: "I can't hear the Leader of the Opposition at all. It's nothing to do with being old" with a glare at the treasury bench...
    Dame Eleanor should have been Speaker, she has more authority than Hoyle and is sharper too
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,249

    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm normally pretty cool on government giving out massive sweeties - because ir's not a giveaway, it's a redistribution, and though there are strong cases for redistribution, redistribution does not tend to make us, collectively, richer.
    But if the government does go ahead with the proposed 30 hours free childcare for 1 and 2 year olds (extending fron what 3 year olds currently get) it will be the best public spending commitment of my lifetime (the special and conplex case of furlough aside).
    I won't personally be affected - I'm through that stage now. But the cost of childcare - along with the cost of housing - effectively makes raising the next generation almost unafforable apart from the very rich or very poor.
    I am massively supportive of this.
    If they can now go on and announce a massive programme of housebuilding (essential) and investment in transport infrastructure (personal hobbyhorse) then I can maybe be convinced that the state can be a force for good.

    I think the spectacularly high expense of HS2 was laid bare on the radio this morning with the 76 - 100 billion odd it's now going to cost (And the rest) juxtaposed against the 3 billion odd this childcare is going to cost p.a.

    I know one is capex and the other is ongoing cost - but still !
    If railways continue to cost 100s of billions, then we won’t have many more railways.

    To give an example - the marginal cost of a 155mm shell is £500, in mass production. So for a billion pounds, we could stockpile 2 million rounds of artillery ammunition.

    The SpaceX Starship program is probably going to cost £8 billion, to develop. So we could have a moon rocket, land some British astronauts on the moon, and probably have £80 billion left over.
    I suspect the cost of HS2 has been roughly doubled by Treasury shenanigans alone.

    If we were serious about infrastructure investment in this country then it wouldn’t cost us any where near as much.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,228
    MaxPB said:

    Starmer's voice is extremely irritating.

    At least it's not Reeves.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,385

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    £20 billion for Carbon Capture and Storage

    Depending on how it's spent, either very interesting, or a huge waste of money.
    Pretty much every voter will think £20 billion on carbon capture should have gone on the NHS instead. Unsellable.
    But that's true for everything, "why give big companies a £9bn tax cut, give £9bn to the NHS instead".
    "tax cut" for business to increase jobs is easier for voters to understand. Especially when there's an election staring you down both barrels.

    Most voters don't understand "carbon capture", and don't buy into it when they do.

    £20 billion would have pretty much built you the Cardiff tidal lagoon, powering 1.8 million houses from the tides. THAT they understand.
    I thought the Cardiff tidal lagoon was back on again, with the Blue Eden project?

    https://nation.cymru/news/green-light-expected-for-multi-billion-pound-tidal-lagoon-project/
    Swansea, not Cardiff. Swansea has the problem of being a much smaller test-bed - about a tenth of the power of Cardiff.

    Let's see how that Swansea proposal proceeds. A lot of ifs and buts in getting that away with purely private capital.

    But Cardiff-sized projects are the prize.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Grim day for equities
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Not sure how the abolition of the pensions lifetime allowance will go down.

    Potentially giving lots of extra money to already wealthy people.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,665
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some good ideas there but nothing dramatic, certainly on tax.

    Rather a shrug shoulders budget in essence

    It was a budget very much of a chancellor who wants to minimize defeat and then, as leader, conduct a party rebuilding project as a 'safe pair of hands'.
    Hunt's only chance of being next Conservative leader is if Sunak gets a shock re election. If not he goes down on the ship with Rishi as Chancellor to Rishi's PM, they will be blamed for the defeat and the members will vote for a more rightwing leader after Rishi resigns
    I wonder if Liz Truss would throw her hat in the ring again. The view 'It wasn't her fault; the Bank of England crashed the markets' has a niche following on here, but it would be interesting to know how widespread it is within the Tory membership. Not as unusual as all that would be my guess.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,116
    Phil said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm normally pretty cool on government giving out massive sweeties - because ir's not a giveaway, it's a redistribution, and though there are strong cases for redistribution, redistribution does not tend to make us, collectively, richer.
    But if the government does go ahead with the proposed 30 hours free childcare for 1 and 2 year olds (extending fron what 3 year olds currently get) it will be the best public spending commitment of my lifetime (the special and conplex case of furlough aside).
    I won't personally be affected - I'm through that stage now. But the cost of childcare - along with the cost of housing - effectively makes raising the next generation almost unafforable apart from the very rich or very poor.
    I am massively supportive of this.
    If they can now go on and announce a massive programme of housebuilding (essential) and investment in transport infrastructure (personal hobbyhorse) then I can maybe be convinced that the state can be a force for good.

    I think the spectacularly high expense of HS2 was laid bare on the radio this morning with the 76 - 100 billion odd it's now going to cost (And the rest) juxtaposed against the 3 billion odd this childcare is going to cost p.a.

    I know one is capex and the other is ongoing cost - but still !
    If railways continue to cost 100s of billions, then we won’t have many more railways.

    To give an example - the marginal cost of a 155mm shell is £500, in mass production. So for a billion pounds, we could stockpile 2 million rounds of artillery ammunition.

    The SpaceX Starship program is probably going to cost £8 billion, to develop. So we could have a moon rocket, land some British astronauts on the moon, and probably have £80 billion left over.
    I suspect the cost of HS2 has been roughly doubled by Treasury shenanigans alone.

    If we were serious about infrastructure investment in this country then it wouldn’t cost us any where near as much.
    Ywep - HS2 is an expensive project made insanely expensive by the Treasury moving the goalposts continually.

    Heck if Italy can build HS routes we should be easily able to.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,385
    edited March 2023

    carnforth said:

    Oh God, Quantum computing still?

    Dude, I have this plan.

    It involves creating a new small sat space launch system. This will be used to launch a constellation of satellites, doing quantum cryptocurrency.

    #SendMeAllYourMoney
    Get the UK nuclear industry involved - and the support cheques will be open ended.

    You may have to promise to make some government ministers "Director for Jollies (Golf Course Testing)" if they should at some time become unemployed, but it is not even the rounding error on the sums you'll rake in...
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,718
    MaxPB said:

    Starmer's voice is extremely irritating.

    Really? It's extremely neutral. Boris Johnson has a far more annoying voice.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,366
    edited March 2023
    Just imagine if Hunt had won in 2019.

    We would have competent government since then.
  • A decent budget, I'll wait for our team to look through the details to see if the rhetoric matches the red book.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Can we please stop saying 'the UK is the only G7 economy which is still smaller than it was before the pandemic'?

    This is no longer true, after German GDP was revised down... 🤓


    https://twitter.com/julianhjessop/status/1635991791538192385
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,385
    Phil said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm normally pretty cool on government giving out massive sweeties - because ir's not a giveaway, it's a redistribution, and though there are strong cases for redistribution, redistribution does not tend to make us, collectively, richer.
    But if the government does go ahead with the proposed 30 hours free childcare for 1 and 2 year olds (extending fron what 3 year olds currently get) it will be the best public spending commitment of my lifetime (the special and conplex case of furlough aside).
    I won't personally be affected - I'm through that stage now. But the cost of childcare - along with the cost of housing - effectively makes raising the next generation almost unafforable apart from the very rich or very poor.
    I am massively supportive of this.
    If they can now go on and announce a massive programme of housebuilding (essential) and investment in transport infrastructure (personal hobbyhorse) then I can maybe be convinced that the state can be a force for good.

    I think the spectacularly high expense of HS2 was laid bare on the radio this morning with the 76 - 100 billion odd it's now going to cost (And the rest) juxtaposed against the 3 billion odd this childcare is going to cost p.a.

    I know one is capex and the other is ongoing cost - but still !
    If railways continue to cost 100s of billions, then we won’t have many more railways.

    To give an example - the marginal cost of a 155mm shell is £500, in mass production. So for a billion pounds, we could stockpile 2 million rounds of artillery ammunition.

    The SpaceX Starship program is probably going to cost £8 billion, to develop. So we could have a moon rocket, land some British astronauts on the moon, and probably have £80 billion left over.
    I suspect the cost of HS2 has been roughly doubled by Treasury shenanigans alone.

    If we were serious about infrastructure investment in this country then it wouldn’t cost us any where near as much.
    More likely the cost estimates the Treasury bought into were half what they should have been.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,149

    Not sure how the abolition of the pensions lifetime allowance will go down.

    Potentially giving lots of extra money to already wealthy people.

    It will benefit two classes of people: 1) higher paid public sector DB members and 2) private sector city types who dump bonuses into DC schemes.

    Regarding 2) - I've not watched the budget - is there still annual allowances which will restrict 2) above.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited March 2023
    On the budget - indeed, on the tories ever since Truss - they’re out of ideas.

    The tories have lost the argument and don’t know what they stand for any more.

    There’s no way a confident Tory party would do that childcare package.

    The Stop the boats bullshit is a strategy - again - designed around Starmer and the threat that he poses. The Tory Yang to Starmers Yin.

    What is the point of the Conservative Party?
  • I hate the Swiss, they've ruined my week.
  • Not sure how the abolition of the pensions lifetime allowance will go down.

    Potentially giving lots of extra money to already wealthy people.

    More cash for their donors and patrons. What, that isn't you? KNOW YOUR PLACE, PLEB!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,385

    Can we please stop saying 'the UK is the only G7 economy which is still smaller than it was before the pandemic'?

    This is no longer true, after German GDP was revised down... 🤓


    https://twitter.com/julianhjessop/status/1635991791538192385

    Deutschland - der kranke mann europas?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,887
    Stocky said:

    Not sure how the abolition of the pensions lifetime allowance will go down.

    Potentially giving lots of extra money to already wealthy people.

    It will benefit two classes of people: 1) higher paid public sector DB members and 2) private sector city types who dump bonuses into DC schemes.

    Regarding 2) - I've not watched the budget - is there still annual allowances which will restrict 2) above.
    From upthread: Hunt says he is going to increase the annual pensions tax free allowance from £40,000 to £60,000.
  • Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt increases potholes fund by £200 million

    Good priority, but potholes seem to vary dramatically from county to county.

    Where I live its not really a problem thankfully, but I recently had to drive to Blackburn and my goodness the roads are absolutely awful there. I would absolutely consider that a reason not to invest there.
    I read that news today, oh boy.
    Very good. 😂

    But seriously, its a major problem that gets overlooked. Why invest in somewhere like Blackburn with terrible roads, instead of somewhere else like Preston or Warrington etc that is maintaining them better?

    And its not as if Blackburn is suffering from an overabundance of investment.

    I'm not sure why there is such a major discrepancy from one location to another - whether its due to local Councils or something else - but if you want to engage in levelling up then ensuring everywhere has decent roads would be a good place to start.

    Maybe not as high profile and shiny as a new rail route, but getting the basics like that right should be a bare minimum requirement.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,981
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    What's with this swimming pools policy? Who cares about that kind of detail?

    People who use them.
    Just out of one right now actually. Drying off. It's my main exercise.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    Not sure how the abolition of the pensions lifetime allowance will go down.

    Potentially giving lots of extra money to already wealthy people.

    More cash for their donors and patrons. What, that isn't you? KNOW YOUR PLACE, PLEB!
    I know my place :lol:
This discussion has been closed.