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A hollow victory for the hollow crown? – politicalbetting.com

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  • rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    On the other hand Crispbag's career with the BBC is now at an end. He can run his MOTD contract through to its end but it will not be renewed nor those of his mates on MOTD. A new format beckons. Time to move on.
    It does seem that is highly likely
    There won't be MOTD because the Been won't Ben given the £ to renew it's premier League contract. No football to show = no MOTD = no Lineker.

    The end of his career! Oh no, that's right, he'll present football on any platform showing football. All thos does is makes free to air even poorer than it already is.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,053

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    It wouldn't have sounded likely to me either, five years ago.

    And TBF they are not actual Nazis.

    Just hard right xenophobic idiots and rather inept politicians with a contempt for the law, who might be mistaken for Nazis by people with a lack of understanding of the nuances of the subject.

    Like, say, an ex-footballer who once had to present a show in his underpants because of an unwise prediction he made.
    Rishi Sunak doesnt strike me as a hard right xenophobe.

    I don't think he is. A lot of his party, and a fair number of his MPs are though, including some in cabinet.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 633

    Break you wife's nose and get a knighthood. Speak out for refugees and get the sack. What has Tory Britain become

    It hasn't become anything new, it's just more open about it.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    Yes I know. Inexplicable isn't it, but there you go. Not that I believe any of them are closet Nazis, but that wasn't what @ydoethur said was it. He said 'they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists' which of course opens them up to a comparison.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    Good to see you back, Sir.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also on SVB UK, if Hunt does nothing around 300 perfectly viable startups will be looking at the abyss because they can't make payroll and up to 20k highly paid and productive jobs will disappear from the economy. He's got to step in tomorrow and ensure access to finance is available until the SVB UK book has been purchased. It is absolutely imperative, if he doesn't the UK will take a big hit to its reputation for stable business conditions, if he does it will be greatly enhanced, especially if the sale of the SVB UK book goes smoothly because of ring fencing and UK capital regulations.

    How many pounds for how much time, roughly?

    It's clearly the sort of thing government should be doing, as cash machine of last resort, but quite a few recent decisions seem motivated by spending as little as possible today, whatever the consequences down the line.
    Privatise the profits, nationalise the losses?

    I can see why the City wants that.
    Except the government is just acting as a short term lender to hundreds of companies while some other bank buys the (highly profitable and well capitalised) UK arm of SVB. There's no losses. You just see what you want to see.
    I see that the City wants another bailout.

    If the assets are so obviously valuable then let other companies buy them.

    And until that goes through? The companies who need to make payroll and those employees are just fucked? Right.
    Yep. That is the free market. You want the upside, then you take the downside.

    I sense a bit of panic about. It may not be rational, but when financiers panic they are like sheep. Best to panic first.
    What are you banging on about? SVB UK is a ring fenced entity, it just has the unfortunate situation of being owned by a US company that's gone under. You literally want to throw away 300+ companies and 20k+ livelihoods as well as the UK's reputation for stable finance for what? The regulations have worked, SVB UK is still solvent, it just has its assets frozen because the US parent is bankrupt.

    You think you're making some really clever point but you aren't. The UK regulations have worked, ring fencing and proper capital requirements means that SVB UK clients won't see a penny in losses, but that's no use until the money becomes available again.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    It wouldn't have sounded likely to me either, five years ago.

    And TBF they are not actual Nazis.

    Just hard right xenophobic idiots and rather inept politicians with a contempt for the law, who might be mistaken for Nazis by people with a lack of understanding of the nuances of the subject.

    Like, say, an ex-footballer who once had to present a show in his underpants because of an unwise prediction he made.
    Rishi Sunak doesnt strike me as a hard right xenophobe.

    I don't think he is. A lot of his party, and a fair number of his MPs are though, including some in cabinet.
    Sunak is their frontman. Likes a dog whistle does our Rishi.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,335

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    As mentioned by others, it was the language, not the ethnicity of the perpetrators. The language starts the process off. It was the same with Brexit. Demonise immigrants and asylum seekers and other brown people to win people's votes, then throw up their hands in horror when the mob starts taking the law into their own hands.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    edited March 2023
    tlg86 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Top trolling by Andrew Neil.
    Very watery pish compared to the seizure inducing trolling by Gary Lineker.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Next the agility competition for rescue dogs only…
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,702
    Hunt on Kuenssberg not exactly being interrogated here.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    Reflecting on the debate last night I have changed my opinion a bit.

    Lineker was guilty of hyperbole in comparing the language to 1930s Germany, which everyone reasonably equates to the Nazis even if he did not use the word.

    He went too far in making a point about his dislike for the immigration proposals (which I share).

    However, the BBC were totally wrong to ban him and will likely have to backtrack.

    Kudos to those on here who do not support Lineker's views but defend his right to state them.

    To those who are happy to see him banned I say: we see your true colours now.

    Listen to the LBC clip posted above. It's absolutely fair to compare this government to the Nazis because you can literally substitute "refugee" for "Jew" in Braverman's speeches and it sounds like Joseph himself wrote them for her

    The Final Solution came after a decade and more of nasty propaganda written specifically to demonise. The Conservative Party are publishing their own nasty propaganda to demonise. Using the same rhetorical structures. To whip up public hate mobs. Which the propagandist then uses as something to blame the victims for.

    Not everything Nazi immediately becomes the holocaust. Where you can't talk about the dark arts of Goebbels because of genocide. We bloody well can precisely to stop things leading that far. The Nazis wanted to expel the Jews. A small chunk of Tory voters want to expel the refugees. Sink them if needed. And the Conservative Party is pandering to this. For votes.
    Not sure you're on message.

    The line is "Look at his tweet, Lineker didn't compare the government to Nazis!"
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,735
    Taz said:

    Hunt on Kuenssberg not exactly being interrogated here.

    You could watch him on GBNews instead, where he gets questioned by (checks notes) 2 other Tory MPs...
  • Taz said:

    Hunt on Kuenssberg not exactly being interrogated here.

    I hope he doesn't accidentally call her Hunsberg
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,132
    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    It wouldn't have sounded likely to me either, five years ago.

    And TBF they are not actual Nazis.

    Just hard right xenophobic idiots and rather inept politicians with a contempt for the law, who might be mistaken for Nazis by people with a lack of understanding of the nuances of the subject.

    Like, say, an ex-footballer who once had to present a show in his underpants because of an unwise prediction he made.
    Rishi Sunak doesnt strike me as a hard right xenophobe.

    I don't think he is. A lot of his party, and a fair number of his MPs are though, including some in cabinet.
    Sunak is their frontman. Likes a dog whistle does our Rishi.
    Mr Sunak is on Crufts today?
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 633

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    Now that Sunak has signalled that Lineker is a good chap, and this is purely a BBC matter (!), I think Davie is doomed. My gut feeling is a few more days of BBC news and the papers pursuing this, and he'll be gone Wednesday or Thursday.
    Sharp I'm not sure about, I think he might get away with this. The silver lining to that would be that having.come so close to getting his fingers burned, he'll be much more reluctant to take an overtly anti-protest line.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited March 2023
    Taz said:



    Morning all.

    It's indeed true that Birt had experience of TV, like Greg Dyke. But the crtical fact is that he signed over , almost, the entire restructurng of the BBC to an outside body, in the shape of McKinsey's.

    Nothing like that's happened to the BBC before, or since.

    Davie is simply a continuation of this more commercial ethos, nothing new or particularly different, or necessarily that much more incompetent on the creative front than Dyke, who wasn't terrible. But he's shown poor judgement over this row and affair.

    I didn’t realise until you mentioned it yesterday that under Birt the BBC were still junking treasures like Play for Today and Screen Two.

    Birt was an awful appointment and it took the BBC many years to recover from him.

    Indeed. Birt oversaw the end of the BBC's most creative period. At the same time, to try and see things from his own point of view, the pressure in the early '90s was all on BBC "waste" and "inefficiency". That was the big theme of the rightwing press at the time, rather like alleged bias has been since then.

    In this very deregulating and rationalising climate, when all the bodies who were maintaining public service quality in ITV and Channel 4, like the IBA, were also being swept away, Birt thought his job was to keep the BBC looking nimble, efficient, and uncentralised.

    So he signed away pretty much the whole thing to McKinsey's, with predictable results. At the time, even a lot of left-centre journalists thought it was the only way to save the BBC from future Tory attacks. But it hasn't quite worked out like that, because a lot of the things that made BBC distinctive were also affected.

    The BBC can recover, but it has to look to that period before the late '90s, and see some of what it was doing differently.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Lineker’s policy of spreading hatred of the government uses immeasurable hyperbole and weasel words not dissimilar to those employed by usurpers looking to foment rebellion against democratically elected governments through the ages

    ChatGPT ?
    Lineker is using WeaselGPT

    "Not dissimilar to language used in Germany in the 30s"

    is weasel for

    "Similar to Nazi propaganda"
    Given that 1930-33 includes the critical final years of Weimar and the elections that put paid to it, that wouldn't stand up for a moment in a law court.
    Yes, that's right. Lineker was absolutely referring to the Weimar Republic.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    It wouldn't have sounded likely to me either, five years ago.

    And TBF they are not actual Nazis.

    Just hard right xenophobic idiots and rather inept politicians with a contempt for the law, who might be mistaken for Nazis by people with a lack of understanding of the nuances of the subject.

    Like, say, an ex-footballer who once had to present a show in his underpants because of an unwise prediction he made.
    Rishi Sunak doesnt strike me as a hard right xenophobe.

    I don't think he is. A lot of his party, and a fair number of his MPs are though, including some in cabinet.
    Stale tribal thinking.

    The Tories have had 3 women PMs, the first non white PM , fist black foreign secretary, on to their second asian woman home secretary, first black CoE etc.

    And all elected in to place by the same grey haired crew at constituency level.

    And all the while shouty Labour yell across the despatch box and produce a rich boring middle aged man as the face of the future.
  • ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    As mentioned by others, it was the language, not the ethnicity of the perpetrators. The language starts the process off. It was the same with Brexit. Demonise immigrants and asylum seekers and other brown people to win people's votes, then throw up their hands in horror when the mob starts taking the law into their own hands.
    Are Albanians very brown?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876

    Labour supporting Matthew Syed comes out in favour of what Rishi is trying to do here, saying the treaties should be rewritten across the West and, indeed, arguing there should be an absolute cap on numbers - and critical of liberal-thinking on the issue. He thinks this would legitimately allow a higher number to be admitted. He does think language and tone is important too:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/our-asylum-system-has-been-rigged-for-decades-its-time-for-real-action-r3vtk3ggq

    It’s an interesting article with something for everyone.

    There may be some of the pearl clutching liberals calling for open borders he talks about, but they have no power and no means of securing power. So the juxtaposition he creates doesn’t actually exist in the real world.

    The real world issue is will the government’s plan work? The answer is almost certainly no. What may work, as Matthew says, is detailed, sustained international cooperation. The one thing that is pretty much guaranteed not to get that is what the Tory right, including Suella Braverman, has made very clear it wants - the UK pulling out of the ECHR and/or the UNHCR. So Sunak will have a very important choice to make in a few months time when the small boats keep coming.

    And, yes, as Syed says, language matters a lot. If you want a national consensus rather than dividing lines you don’t use words like invasion and accuse those who don’t agree with you of betraying Britain.
    I think you have to disaggregate the rhetoric from the policy.

    The rhetoric is political, designed to shore up the base and cause Labour to misstep. The policy is to clear the backlog, allowing quicker, legitimate deportations of those unentitled, and deal with Macron to stop 75%+ of the crossings to make the people smuggler's business model unviable.

    Sunak is brilliant.

    The policy needs to deliver significant results quickly. That's the problem with going to hard on the rhetoric. It has created expectations. But clearly we're at a stage where there's no other choice. Sunak had to do something.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    edited March 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    I think there is a way out for them. It requires some brass neck, which in Davie’s case is not, I think, a problem: ‘Gary has now served his suspension, and we’ve all learned from this episode. Normal service will be resumed next weekend.’
    That won't satisfy patriots like, Lee Anderson, Nadine Dorries, Suella Braverman' and Nigel Farage. The genie is out of the bottle. Unless Lineker climbs down and provides a televised personal apology to the Home Secretary, Richard Sharp, Tim Davie and Robbie Gibb he cannot return. That's politics!

    This could be a massive victory or a massive defeat for the Government, they need to go for broke. New contracts, signed or refuseniks escorted out of the building. Any unpatriotic, Remainer or left wing narrative from BBC talent results in immediate dismissal. In the meantime let's book Farage for next week's QT!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    edited March 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    On the other hand Crispbag's career with the BBC is now at an end. He can run his MOTD contract through to its end but it will not be renewed nor those of his mates on MOTD. A new format beckons. Time to move on.
    It does seem that is highly likely
    There won't be MOTD because the Been won't Ben given the £ to renew it's premier League contract. No football to show = no MOTD = no Lineker.

    The end of his career! Oh no, that's right, he'll present football on any platform showing football. All thos does is makes free to air even poorer than it already is.
    BBC sports coverage is sadly dying on its feet and with Sky and BT sports overwhelming doing it better and of course most pubs stream these channels to their clientele

    BBC have ended coverage of golf and in particular the Masters and I see football going the same way

    I understand Lineker is 63 so he is in the autumn of his career and I expect he will develop a political career going forward
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,132

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Lineker’s policy of spreading hatred of the government uses immeasurable hyperbole and weasel words not dissimilar to those employed by usurpers looking to foment rebellion against democratically elected governments through the ages

    ChatGPT ?
    Lineker is using WeaselGPT

    "Not dissimilar to language used in Germany in the 30s"

    is weasel for

    "Similar to Nazi propaganda"
    Given that 1930-33 includes the critical final years of Weimar and the elections that put paid to it, that wouldn't stand up for a moment in a law court.
    Yes, that's right. Lineker was absolutely referring to the Weimar Republic.
    I said 'includes'. Not 'comprises'.

    The election campaigning is particularly relevant to the Conservative Party at the moment.

    Feel free, however, to distort and omit and add extraneous interpretations.

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 6,760
    Foxy said:

    On top of the money paid to Macron, it would probably help if we financially supported the EU interdiction of migrant boats in the Med and Aegean. The further upstream the better.

    Given that the EU handed them over to slavers? Really?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,735

    The Tories have had 3 women PMs, the first non white PM , fist black foreign secretary, on to their second asian woman home secretary, first black CoE etc.

    And how many out of that list haven't been absolutely useless.

    A boring middle aged white man might be just what we need...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008
    IanB2 said:

    Next the agility competition for rescue dogs only…

    Where are you watching this?

    Thought it wasn't on until this afternoon.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    I think there is a way out for them. It requires some brass neck, which in Davie’s case is not, I think, a problem: ‘Gary has now served his suspension, and we’ve all learned from this episode. Normal service will be resumed next weekend.’
    Which would be fine if the media moved on. But it won't. There is far too much momentum in this story now for someone to declare Status Quo Ante
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,053
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    A hotly contested jumping competition in the small category, with five dogs clear and breaking the forty second mark.

    Have I missed the Strictly Come Dog Dancing?
    The British entry won the International freestyle competition yesterday. But not to the standard of Lucie Plevova who used to win with her collie Jump Aibara every year:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5vwAox7Y4c
    Any thoughts on Best in Show? I know Toy and Utility still to go, but that Lagatto was magnificent. May well go to the Fox Terrier though.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    I think there is a way out for them. It requires some brass neck, which in Davie’s case is not, I think, a problem: ‘Gary has now served his suspension, and we’ve all learned from this episode. Normal service will be resumed next weekend.’
    That won't satisfy patriots like, Lee Anderson, Nadine Dorries, Suella Braverman' and Nigel Farage. The genie is out of the bottle. Unless Lineker climbs down and provides a televised personal apology to the Home Secretary, Richard Sharp, Tim Davie and Robbie Gibb he cannot return. That's politics!

    This could be a massive victory or a massive defeat for the Government, they need to go for broke. New contracts, signed or refuseniks escorted out of the building. Any unpatriotic, Remainer or left wing narrative from BBC talent results in immediate dismissal. In the meantime let's book Farage for next week's QT!
    Why does he have to apologize to a Bee Gee?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Reflecting on the debate last night I have changed my opinion a bit.

    Lineker was guilty of hyperbole in comparing the language to 1930s Germany, which everyone reasonably equates to the Nazis even if he did not use the word.

    He went too far in making a point about his dislike for the immigration proposals (which I share).

    However, the BBC were totally wrong to ban him and will likely have to backtrack.

    Kudos to those on here who do not support Lineker's views but defend his right to state them.

    To those who are happy to see him banned I say: we see your true colours now.

    Listen to the LBC clip posted above. It's absolutely fair to compare this government to the Nazis because you can literally substitute "refugee" for "Jew" in Braverman's speeches and it sounds like Joseph himself wrote them for her

    The Final Solution came after a decade and more of nasty propaganda written specifically to demonise. The Conservative Party are publishing their own nasty propaganda to demonise. Using the same rhetorical structures. To whip up public hate mobs. Which the propagandist then uses as something to blame the victims for.

    Not everything Nazi immediately becomes the holocaust. Where you can't talk about the dark arts of Goebbels because of genocide. We bloody well can precisely to stop things leading that far. The Nazis wanted to expel the Jews. A small chunk of Tory voters want to expel the refugees. Sink them if needed. And the Conservative Party is pandering to this. For votes.
    Not sure you're on message.

    The line is "Look at his tweet, Lineker didn't compare the government to Nazis!"
    Given that early Nazi policy was to deport Jews to Africa (Madagascar IIUC) then if he had done so it would not have been inaccurate.
  • Taz said:

    Hunt on Kuenssberg not exactly being interrogated here.

    I really do not see pre budget interviews with Hunt and Reeves making any sense
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    I think there is a way out for them. It requires some brass neck, which in Davie’s case is not, I think, a problem: ‘Gary has now served his suspension, and we’ve all learned from this episode. Normal service will be resumed next weekend.’
    That won't satisfy patriots like, Lee Anderson, Nadine Dorries, Suella Braverman' and Nigel Farage. The genie is out of the bottle. Unless Lineker climbs down and provides a televised personal apology to the Home Secretary, Richard Sharp, Tim Davie and Robbie Gibb he cannot return. That's politics!

    This could be a massive victory or a massive defeat for the Government, they need to go for broke. New contracts, signed or refuseniks escorted out of the building. Any unpatriotic, Remainer or left wing narrative from BBC talent results in immediate dismissal. In the meantime let's book Farage for next week's QT!
    Of course, it won't satisfy them. But I don't think their unhappiness will unduly worry either Sunak or Davie.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    IanB2 said:

    Next the agility competition for rescue dogs only…

    Where are you watching this?

    Thought it wasn't on until this afternoon.
    YouTube live feed…just under half a million watching currently

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEZ0bHfW0Q4
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Hunt on Kuenssberg not exactly being interrogated here.

    You could watch him on GBNews instead, where he gets questioned by (checks notes) 2 other Tory MPs...
    Now that sounds like a model of impartiality the BBC could adopt going forward. Guaranteed to ensure talent can't make the mistake of posting unpatriotic Tweets.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    Truth is I can now see both sides of the 'Lineker right or wrong' argument.

    This government is of course nothing like the Nazis (thank God).

    Otoh dehumanising language led in no small part to the Nazis, and the Nazis didn't start with the death camps, they started with incremental reductions in liberties.

    I'm going out the the workshop to make some sawdust and consider my position further.

    Happy debating!

    I think some people feel they simply can't make their point without hyperbole, and social media bubbles haven't helped here.

    The government has used language like stopped, banned, denied, detained and deported.

    You could argue that's a tough line but it's not dehumanising.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 633

    Taz said:

    Lineker’s policy of spreading hatred of the government uses immeasurable hyperbole and weasel words not dissimilar to those employed by usurpers looking to foment rebellion against democratically elected governments through the ages

    ChatGPT ?
    Lineker is using WeaselGPT

    "Not dissimilar to language used in Germany in the 30s"

    is weasel for

    "Similar to Nazi propaganda"
    You know the moment in those cute cat videos when the cat is getting ready to jump to something quite far away and it leans so far out it falls off whatever it's standing on?
    That's how far you're stretching.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 6,760
    Taz said:

    Morning all! So it seems clear now that (a) Lineker will be reinstated and (b) Tory stooges imposed on the BBC will be resigning.

    Which means we are going to be opened up to an awful lot of coverage about just how - and why - the Conservative Party is so desperate to corrupt the BBC. And what kind of threat a tweeting sports presenter really would have been to a policy which as claimed was robust and popular.

    As soon as Sunak said "he's great isn't he? Nothing to do with the government" it was clear the Tories had conceded and were in retreat. What a fiasco.

    Whether the policy is robust or not remains to be seen but polling numbers do show it to have support.

    Political interference in the BBC. Would never have happened in the halcyon days of non political appointees John Birt and Gavyn Davies.

    Birt’s impact on the BBC was far more malign than any Tory.
    IIRC Davies resigned from Labour to become chairman of the BBC. But that was ok and Sharp is not… because…?
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,702
    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Hunt on Kuenssberg not exactly being interrogated here.

    You could watch him on GBNews instead, where he gets questioned by (checks notes) 2 other Tory MPs...
    The Tories probably despise each other far more than labour.
  • Scott_xP said:

    The Tories have had 3 women PMs, the first non white PM , fist black foreign secretary, on to their second asian woman home secretary, first black CoE etc.

    And how many out of that list haven't been absolutely useless.

    A boring middle aged white man might be just what we need...
    If you want a Brexiteer then yes
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,702
    kjh said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    I think there is a way out for them. It requires some brass neck, which in Davie’s case is not, I think, a problem: ‘Gary has now served his suspension, and we’ve all learned from this episode. Normal service will be resumed next weekend.’
    That won't satisfy patriots like, Lee Anderson, Nadine Dorries, Suella Braverman' and Nigel Farage. The genie is out of the bottle. Unless Lineker climbs down and provides a televised personal apology to the Home Secretary, Richard Sharp, Tim Davie and Robbie Gibb he cannot return. That's politics!

    This could be a massive victory or a massive defeat for the Government, they need to go for broke. New contracts, signed or refuseniks escorted out of the building. Any unpatriotic, Remainer or left wing narrative from BBC talent results in immediate dismissal. In the meantime let's book Farage for next week's QT!
    Why does he have to apologize to a Bee Gee?
    Did Clive Anderson ever apologise ?
  • ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    As mentioned by others, it was the language, not the ethnicity of the perpetrators. The language starts the process off. It was the same with Brexit. Demonise immigrants and asylum seekers and other brown people to win people's votes, then throw up their hands in horror when the mob starts taking the law into their own hands.
    The Asian PM etc are not Nazis, nor are the "sink the boats" voters they are sucking up to.

    "Acting like a Nazi" isn't the same as doing genocide, nor of being a Nazi. Demonising innocents because of who they are. Refusing to let them work. Hoarding them into detention camps and finally deporting the job lot of them to Africa.

    That is very literally what the Nazis were doing and planning to do. That things turned genocidal doesn't change that Goebbels rhetoric before that and Braverman's rhetoric now are near identical.

    So yes, we can compare the Conservative Party to the Nazis because there are matches in the comparison. Doesn't make them actual Nazis. Just students of Nazis.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    A hotly contested jumping competition in the small category, with five dogs clear and breaking the forty second mark.

    Have I missed the Strictly Come Dog Dancing?
    The British entry won the International freestyle competition yesterday. But not to the standard of Lucie Plevova who used to win with her collie Jump Aibara every year:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5vwAox7Y4c
    Any thoughts on Best in Show? I know Toy and Utility still to go, but that Lagatto was magnificent. May well go to the Fox Terrier though.

    When we visit Italy my dog is regularly mistaken for a Lagotto

    I like the fox terrier, a breed I have always liked.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    A hotly contested jumping competition in the small category, with five dogs clear and breaking the forty second mark.

    Have I missed the Strictly Come Dog Dancing?
    The British entry won the International freestyle competition yesterday. But not to the standard of Lucie Plevova who used to win with her collie Jump Aibara every year:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5vwAox7Y4c
    Any thoughts on Best in Show? I know Toy and Utility still to go, but that Lagatto was magnificent. May well go to the Fox Terrier though.
    PB: Come for the politics; stay for the dog show results...
  • Reflecting on the debate last night I have changed my opinion a bit.

    Lineker was guilty of hyperbole in comparing the language to 1930s Germany, which everyone reasonably equates to the Nazis even if he did not use the word.

    He went too far in making a point about his dislike for the immigration proposals (which I share).

    However, the BBC were totally wrong to ban him and will likely have to backtrack.

    Kudos to those on here who do not support Lineker's views but defend his right to state them.

    To those who are happy to see him banned I say: we see your true colours now.

    Listen to the LBC clip posted above. It's absolutely fair to compare this government to the Nazis because you can literally substitute "refugee" for "Jew" in Braverman's speeches and it sounds like Joseph himself wrote them for her

    The Final Solution came after a decade and more of nasty propaganda written specifically to demonise. The Conservative Party are publishing their own nasty propaganda to demonise. Using the same rhetorical structures. To whip up public hate mobs. Which the propagandist then uses as something to blame the victims for.

    Not everything Nazi immediately becomes the holocaust. Where you can't talk about the dark arts of Goebbels because of genocide. We bloody well can precisely to stop things leading that far. The Nazis wanted to expel the Jews. A small chunk of Tory voters want to expel the refugees. Sink them if needed. And the Conservative Party is pandering to this. For votes.
    Not sure you're on message.

    The line is "Look at his tweet, Lineker didn't compare the government to Nazis!"
    He DID compare them to the Nazis. And as there is demonstrable comparisons between Braverman and Goebbels he was right to do so
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary

    7
    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case now secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill,
    which is rapidly becoming the main story
    and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.

    I don't. I am grey.. I havent watched bbc news for eons as its untrustworthy. I barely listen to radio except results now from talksport as tye bbc fucked everyone over about that. The BBC isn't inclusive anymore .. if it was it wouldn't have booted

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    On the other hand Crispbag's career with the BBC is now at an end. He can run his MOTD contract through to its end but it will not be renewed nor those of his mates on MOTD. A new format beckons. Time to move on.
    It does seem that is highly likely
    There won't be MOTD because the Been won't Ben given the £ to renew it's premier League contract. No football to show = no MOTD = no Lineker.

    The end of his career! Oh no, that's right, he'll present football on any platform showing football. All thos does is makes free to air even poorer than it already is.
    BBC sports coverage is sadly dying on its feet and with Sky and BT sports overwhelming doing it better and of course most pubs stream these channels to their clientele

    BBC have ended coverage of golf and in particular the Masters and I see football going the same way

    I understand Lineker is 63 so he is in the autumn of his career and I expect he will develop a political career going forward
    I think that's highly unlikely .
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Truth is I can now see both sides of the 'Lineker right or wrong' argument.

    This government is of course nothing like the Nazis (thank God).

    Otoh dehumanising language led in no small part to the Nazis, and the Nazis didn't start with the death camps, they started with incremental reductions in liberties.

    I'm going out the the workshop to make some sawdust and consider my position further.

    Happy debating!

    I think some people feel they simply can't make their point without hyperbole, and social media bubbles haven't helped here.

    The government has used language like stopped, banned, denied, detained and deported.

    You could argue that's a tough line but it's not dehumanising.
    I think this whole saga will turn out to be a net gain for the government. Whatever the ins and outs of the policy or language this has signalled to voters that the Tories do seem determined to end the boat crossings asap and if the do that's worth 7-8% in the polls IMO.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    As mentioned by others, it was the language, not the ethnicity of the perpetrators. The language starts the process off. It was the same with Brexit. Demonise immigrants and asylum seekers and other brown people to win people's votes, then throw up their hands in horror when the mob starts taking the law into their own hands.
    I think thats complete tosh.

    In agitprop land common sense goes out the window. It might be more appropriate to think that if we have had an extra 10 million people in the population in a country which has not built houses or expanded its national infrastructure , why is it a good idea to expand immigration at a level we cannot support.

    The UK has always been a mongrel nation so race has nothing to do with it.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Lineker’s policy of spreading hatred of the government uses immeasurable hyperbole and weasel words not dissimilar to those employed by usurpers looking to foment rebellion against democratically elected governments through the ages

    ChatGPT ?
    Lineker is using WeaselGPT

    "Not dissimilar to language used in Germany in the 30s"

    is weasel for

    "Similar to Nazi propaganda"
    Given that 1930-33 includes the critical final years of Weimar and the elections that put paid to it, that wouldn't stand up for a moment in a law court.
    Yes, that's right. Lineker was absolutely referring to the Weimar Republic.
    The Nazis spent an awful lot of time agitating against and demonising Jews whilst in opposition. Again, the language structures of Braverman and Goebbels are there to compare. You don't want to accept it and that's your right. Doesn't mean the comparison isn't valid.
    Off to the naughty corner and have a chat with Leon
  • rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    On the other hand Crispbag's career with the BBC is now at an end. He can run his MOTD contract through to its end but it will not be renewed nor those of his mates on MOTD. A new format beckons. Time to move on.
    It does seem that is highly likely
    There won't be MOTD because the Been won't Ben given the £ to renew it's premier League contract. No football to show = no MOTD = no Lineker.

    The end of his career! Oh no, that's right, he'll present football on any platform showing football. All thos does is makes free to air even poorer than it already is.
    BBC sports coverage is sadly dying on its feet and with Sky and BT sports overwhelming doing it better and of course most pubs stream these channels to their clientele

    BBC have ended coverage of golf and in particular the Masters and I see football going the same way

    I understand Lineker is 63 so he is in the autumn of his career and I expect he will develop a political career going forward
    I keep reading this about Lineker wanting a political career. Has he ever shown any sign of that?

    He holds an opinion honestly held. He has a platform where he can express that opinion. Not the same as him wanting to be Prime Minister.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,053
    edited March 2023
    DougSeal said:

    Reflecting on the debate last night I have changed my opinion a bit.

    Lineker was guilty of hyperbole in comparing the language to 1930s Germany, which everyone reasonably equates to the Nazis even if he did not use the word.

    He went too far in making a point about his dislike for the immigration proposals (which I share).

    However, the BBC were totally wrong to ban him and will likely have to backtrack.

    Kudos to those on here who do not support Lineker's views but defend his right to state them.

    To those who are happy to see him banned I say: we see your true colours now.

    Listen to the LBC clip posted above. It's absolutely fair to compare this government to the Nazis because you can literally substitute "refugee" for "Jew" in Braverman's speeches and it sounds like Joseph himself wrote them for her

    The Final Solution came after a decade and more of nasty propaganda written specifically to demonise. The Conservative Party are publishing their own nasty propaganda to demonise. Using the same rhetorical structures. To whip up public hate mobs. Which the propagandist then uses as something to blame the victims for.

    Not everything Nazi immediately becomes the holocaust. Where you can't talk about the dark arts of Goebbels because of genocide. We bloody well can precisely to stop things leading that far. The Nazis wanted to expel the Jews. A small chunk of Tory voters want to expel the refugees. Sink them if needed. And the Conservative Party is pandering to this. For votes.
    Not sure you're on message.

    The line is "Look at his tweet, Lineker didn't compare the government to Nazis!"
    Given that early Nazi policy was to deport Jews to Africa (Madagascar IIUC) then if he had done so it would not have been inaccurate.
    I think the Madagascar plan was 1940 after the defeat of France. Prior to that the Nazi plan was to drive out Jews as refugees, after robbing them.

    They made quite a show of no one else wanting them either, as seen in the "Voyage of the Damned".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_of_the_Damned
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Scott_xP said:

    The Tories have had 3 women PMs, the first non white PM , fist black foreign secretary, on to their second asian woman home secretary, first black CoE etc.

    And how many out of that list haven't been absolutely useless.

    A boring middle aged white man might be just what we need...
    ROFL
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 633
    I'm off to spend the morning rehearsing Under Milk Wood. Have fun, everyone!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    Reflecting on the debate last night I have changed my opinion a bit.

    Lineker was guilty of hyperbole in comparing the language to 1930s Germany, which everyone reasonably equates to the Nazis even if he did not use the word.

    He went too far in making a point about his dislike for the immigration proposals (which I share).

    However, the BBC were totally wrong to ban him and will likely have to backtrack.

    Kudos to those on here who do not support Lineker's views but defend his right to state them.

    To those who are happy to see him banned I say: we see your true colours now.

    Listen to the LBC clip posted above. It's absolutely fair to compare this government to the Nazis because you can literally substitute "refugee" for "Jew" in Braverman's speeches and it sounds like Joseph himself wrote them for her

    The Final Solution came after a decade and more of nasty propaganda written specifically to demonise. The Conservative Party are publishing their own nasty propaganda to demonise. Using the same rhetorical structures. To whip up public hate mobs. Which the propagandist then uses as something to blame the victims for.

    Not everything Nazi immediately becomes the holocaust. Where you can't talk about the dark arts of Goebbels because of genocide. We bloody well can precisely to stop things leading that far. The Nazis wanted to expel the Jews. A small chunk of Tory voters want to expel the refugees. Sink them if needed. And the Conservative Party is pandering to this. For votes.
    Not sure you're on message.

    The line is "Look at his tweet, Lineker didn't compare the government to Nazis!"
    He DID compare them to the Nazis. And as there is demonstrable comparisons between Braverman and Goebbels he was right to do so
    At least you admit it.

    Please tell it to the Herd.
  • Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Lineker’s policy of spreading hatred of the government uses immeasurable hyperbole and weasel words not dissimilar to those employed by usurpers looking to foment rebellion against democratically elected governments through the ages

    ChatGPT ?
    Lineker is using WeaselGPT

    "Not dissimilar to language used in Germany in the 30s"

    is weasel for

    "Similar to Nazi propaganda"
    Given that 1930-33 includes the critical final years of Weimar and the elections that put paid to it, that wouldn't stand up for a moment in a law court.
    Yes, that's right. Lineker was absolutely referring to the Weimar Republic.
    The Nazis spent an awful lot of time agitating against and demonising Jews whilst in opposition. Again, the language structures of Braverman and Goebbels are there to compare. You don't want to accept it and that's your right. Doesn't mean the comparison isn't valid.
    Off to the naughty corner and have a chat with Leon
    How do you know I am not He?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    I think there is a way out for them. It requires some brass neck, which in Davie’s case is not, I think, a problem: ‘Gary has now served his suspension, and we’ve all learned from this episode. Normal service will be resumed next weekend.’
    That won't satisfy patriots like, Lee Anderson, Nadine Dorries, Suella Braverman' and Nigel Farage. The genie is out of the bottle. Unless Lineker climbs down and provides a televised personal apology to the Home Secretary, Richard Sharp, Tim Davie and Robbie Gibb he cannot return. That's politics!

    This could be a massive victory or a massive defeat for the Government, they need to go for broke. New contracts, signed or refuseniks escorted out of the building. Any unpatriotic, Remainer or left wing narrative from BBC talent results in immediate dismissal. In the meantime let's book Farage for next week's QT!
    Of course, it won't satisfy them. But I don't think their unhappiness will unduly worry either Sunak or Davie.
    Are you sure about that? Particularly Sunak. 30p Lee, don't forget, is Conservative Party Deputy Dawg.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,053
    FF43 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    A hotly contested jumping competition in the small category, with five dogs clear and breaking the forty second mark.

    Have I missed the Strictly Come Dog Dancing?
    The British entry won the International freestyle competition yesterday. But not to the standard of Lucie Plevova who used to win with her collie Jump Aibara every year:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5vwAox7Y4c
    Any thoughts on Best in Show? I know Toy and Utility still to go, but that Lagatto was magnificent. May well go to the Fox Terrier though.
    PB: Come for the politics; stay for the dog show results...
    Like the Oscars, it is a betting event.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Lineker’s policy of spreading hatred of the government uses immeasurable hyperbole and weasel words not dissimilar to those employed by usurpers looking to foment rebellion against democratically elected governments through the ages

    ChatGPT ?
    Lineker is using WeaselGPT

    "Not dissimilar to language used in Germany in the 30s"

    is weasel for

    "Similar to Nazi propaganda"
    Given that 1930-33 includes the critical final years of Weimar and the elections that put paid to it, that wouldn't stand up for a moment in a law court.
    Yes, that's right. Lineker was absolutely referring to the Weimar Republic.
    The Nazis spent an awful lot of time agitating against and demonising Jews whilst in opposition. Again, the language structures of Braverman and Goebbels are there to compare. You don't want to accept it and that's your right. Doesn't mean the comparison isn't valid.
    If the Government had spent an awful lot of time agitating against and demonising Jews then you might have a point, yes.

    Unfortunately, the only one who did that was the ex-LOTO and his fellow travellers.
  • I want to consider immeasurable cruelty

    There isn't a measure for cruelty

    But I think we can all accept that we can compare different levels of cruelty

    So our "measure" has to be a relative one

    We won't always agree, but we could come to some sort consensus on the order of how cruel all cruelty in history has been

    So for each individual act of cruelty we can say "it's a bit crueller than this, not so cruel as that, and just as cruel as the other"

    That's the measure

    For something to be immeasurable relatively, it needs to be off the scale crueller than anything before

    It's immeasurably hyperbolic
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 6,760
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also on SVB UK, if Hunt does nothing around 300 perfectly viable startups will be looking at the abyss because they can't make payroll and up to 20k highly paid and productive jobs will disappear from the economy. He's got to step in tomorrow and ensure access to finance is available until the SVB UK book has been purchased. It is absolutely imperative, if he doesn't the UK will take a big hit to its reputation for stable business conditions, if he does it will be greatly enhanced, especially if the sale of the SVB UK book goes smoothly because of ring fencing and UK capital regulations.

    How many pounds for how much time, roughly?

    It's clearly the sort of thing government should be doing, as cash machine of last resort, but quite a few recent decisions seem motivated by spending as little as possible today, whatever the consequences down the line.
    Privatise the profits, nationalise the losses?

    I can see why the City wants that.
    The losses aren’t in London

    But would you prefer that 300 viable companies close as an alternative?

  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,335

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    As mentioned by others, it was the language, not the ethnicity of the perpetrators. The language starts the process off. It was the same with Brexit. Demonise immigrants and asylum seekers and other brown people to win people's votes, then throw up their hands in horror when the mob starts taking the law into their own hands.
    I think thats complete tosh.

    In agitprop land common sense goes out the window. It might be more appropriate to think that if we have had an extra 10 million people in the population in a country which has not built houses or expanded its national infrastructure , why is it a good idea to expand immigration at a level we cannot support.

    The UK has always been a mongrel nation so race has nothing to do with it.

    Well, that's your opinion, and unlike what's happened to Lineker, you can express that opinion, like me. On the other hand, I remember Old Enoch, and the scum of the NF in the 70s with their tactics, very similar to ukip with Farage, and leaveuk or whatever they were called, many of whom, are now in our present Brexit Conservative party.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Next the agility competition for rescue dogs only…

    Where are you watching this?

    Thought it wasn't on until this afternoon.
    YouTube live feed…just under half a million watching currently

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEZ0bHfW0Q4
    Thanks. That must be the live feed and they only televise the highlights and main competition finals later then.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    MaxPB said:

    Truth is I can now see both sides of the 'Lineker right or wrong' argument.

    This government is of course nothing like the Nazis (thank God).

    Otoh dehumanising language led in no small part to the Nazis, and the Nazis didn't start with the death camps, they started with incremental reductions in liberties.

    I'm going out the the workshop to make some sawdust and consider my position further.

    Happy debating!

    I think some people feel they simply can't make their point without hyperbole, and social media bubbles haven't helped here.

    The government has used language like stopped, banned, denied, detained and deported.

    You could argue that's a tough line but it's not dehumanising.
    I think this whole saga will turn out to be a net gain for the government. Whatever the ins and outs of the policy or language this has signalled to voters that the Tories do seem determined to end the boat crossings asap and if the do that's worth 7-8% in the polls IMO.
    You always do Max until it turns out to be the opposite. Remember Quasi's rock n' roll "real" Conservative budget.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,053
    kjh said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    I think there is a way out for them. It requires some brass neck, which in Davie’s case is not, I think, a problem: ‘Gary has now served his suspension, and we’ve all learned from this episode. Normal service will be resumed next weekend.’
    That won't satisfy patriots like, Lee Anderson, Nadine Dorries, Suella Braverman' and Nigel Farage. The genie is out of the bottle. Unless Lineker climbs down and provides a televised personal apology to the Home Secretary, Richard Sharp, Tim Davie and Robbie Gibb he cannot return. That's politics!

    This could be a massive victory or a massive defeat for the Government, they need to go for broke. New contracts, signed or refuseniks escorted out of the building. Any unpatriotic, Remainer or left wing narrative from BBC talent results in immediate dismissal. In the meantime let's book Farage for next week's QT!
    Why does he have to apologize to a Bee Gee?
    Because he wants to be Staying Alive politically?
  • Reeves commits to the triple lock for the future
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,053

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also on SVB UK, if Hunt does nothing around 300 perfectly viable startups will be looking at the abyss because they can't make payroll and up to 20k highly paid and productive jobs will disappear from the economy. He's got to step in tomorrow and ensure access to finance is available until the SVB UK book has been purchased. It is absolutely imperative, if he doesn't the UK will take a big hit to its reputation for stable business conditions, if he does it will be greatly enhanced, especially if the sale of the SVB UK book goes smoothly because of ring fencing and UK capital regulations.

    How many pounds for how much time, roughly?

    It's clearly the sort of thing government should be doing, as cash machine of last resort, but quite a few recent decisions seem motivated by spending as little as possible today, whatever the consequences down the line.
    Privatise the profits, nationalise the losses?

    I can see why the City wants that.
    The losses aren’t in London

    But would you prefer that 300 viable companies close as an alternative?

    I just see City folk running for a government bailout again, as soon as the wind turns against them.

  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,335

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    As mentioned by others, it was the language, not the ethnicity of the perpetrators. The language starts the process off. It was the same with Brexit. Demonise immigrants and asylum seekers and other brown people to win people's votes, then throw up their hands in horror when the mob starts taking the law into their own hands.
    I think thats complete tosh.

    In agitprop land common sense goes out the window. It might be more appropriate to think that if we have had an extra 10 million people in the population in a country which has not built houses or expanded its national infrastructure , why is it a good idea to expand immigration at a level we cannot support.

    The UK has always been a mongrel nation so race has nothing to do with it.

    Also, whose fault is it that our infrastructure hasn't kept up with population growth anyway?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    As mentioned by others, it was the language, not the ethnicity of the perpetrators. The language starts the process off. It was the same with Brexit. Demonise immigrants and asylum seekers and other brown people to win people's votes, then throw up their hands in horror when the mob starts taking the law into their own hands.
    I think thats complete tosh.

    In agitprop land common sense goes out the window. It might be more appropriate to think that if we have had an extra 10 million people in the population in a country which has not built houses or expanded its national infrastructure , why is it a good idea to expand immigration at a level we cannot support.

    The UK has always been a mongrel nation so race has nothing to do with it.

    I found it far easier to bring my strawberry blonde, blue eyed, Irish-American wife to this country than many of my then (I dabbled in in
    immigration law in the mid-2000s) clients who wanted to bring their “New Commonwealth” spouses here.

    Anyone who says race has nothing to do with it hasn’t suffered under the system in this country. It was bad under Blair this was 2006) but it’s immeasurably worse under Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss, Sunak, whichever you’re foisting on us this week.
  • ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    As mentioned by others, it was the language, not the ethnicity of the perpetrators. The language starts the process off. It was the same with Brexit. Demonise immigrants and asylum seekers and other brown people to win people's votes, then throw up their hands in horror when the mob starts taking the law into their own hands.
    I think thats complete tosh.

    In agitprop land common sense goes out the window. It might be more appropriate to think that if we have had an extra 10 million people in the population in a country which has not built houses or expanded its national infrastructure , why is it a good idea to expand immigration at a level we cannot support.

    The UK has always been a mongrel nation so race has nothing to do with it.

    We aren't a racist country. We're xenophobic, seeing the Englishman as powerful enough to literally conquer the world. We don't even see ourselves as superior to any other govern country any more (ok, with the exception of France...). That isn't the national hangup.

    How do I put this. We dislike and fear The Other. We find it hard to define as it is so large. In essence we watch as our former colonies get richer whilst we feel poorer. That we remain richer than said colonies doesn't matter, this is about perception and not facts.

    So we're not racist because we don't have any specific race we're against. We can get wound up about brown people or Muslims or Romanian beggers just as easily - they aren't us and we fear them a little.

    As you rightly point out, we're mongrels. When we used to have racists complaining that were diluting "pure bred Anglo - Saxons" we know that some people are clueless about who we are and where we come from.

    They say we are full when we're not. That we take lots of migrants when we don't. Not because they are wrong and we should ignore them, because they are right from their perspective looking at their own circumstances - which ties back to our relative decline vs other nations.
  • Here we go again.

    Isn’t the market wonderful until it crashes, then socialism is required for the losses.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Lineker’s policy of spreading hatred of the government uses immeasurable hyperbole and weasel words not dissimilar to those employed by usurpers looking to foment rebellion against democratically elected governments through the ages

    ChatGPT ?
    Lineker is using WeaselGPT

    "Not dissimilar to language used in Germany in the 30s"

    is weasel for

    "Similar to Nazi propaganda"
    Given that 1930-33 includes the critical final years of Weimar and the elections that put paid to it, that wouldn't stand up for a moment in a law court.
    Yes, that's right. Lineker was absolutely referring to the Weimar Republic.
    The Nazis spent an awful lot of time agitating against and demonising Jews whilst in opposition. Again, the language structures of Braverman and Goebbels are there to compare. You don't want to accept it and that's your right. Doesn't mean the comparison isn't valid.
    Off to the naughty corner and have a chat with Leon
    How do you know I am not He?
    You would have told us you were in a seven star hotel eating abalone sushi while watching mermaids dancing in the South Pacifc.

    As it is you are looking at a raw turnip pick and mix on a rainy day near Dingwall

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,054
    MaxPB said:

    Also on SVB UK, if Hunt does nothing around 300 perfectly viable startups will be looking at the abyss because they can't make payroll and up to 20k highly paid and productive jobs will disappear from the economy. He's got to step in tomorrow and ensure access to finance is available until the SVB UK book has been purchased. It is absolutely imperative, if he doesn't the UK will take a big hit to its reputation for stable business conditions, if he does it will be greatly enhanced, especially if the sale of the SVB UK book goes smoothly because of ring fencing and UK capital regulations.

    Correct, although slightly less urgent than in America, where employees expect to be paid in the middle of the month as well as at the end.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Lineker’s policy of spreading hatred of the government uses immeasurable hyperbole and weasel words not dissimilar to those employed by usurpers looking to foment rebellion against democratically elected governments through the ages

    ChatGPT ?
    Lineker is using WeaselGPT

    "Not dissimilar to language used in Germany in the 30s"

    is weasel for

    "Similar to Nazi propaganda"
    Given that 1930-33 includes the critical final years of Weimar and the elections that put paid to it, that wouldn't stand up for a moment in a law court.
    Yes, that's right. Lineker was absolutely referring to the Weimar Republic.
    The Nazis spent an awful lot of time agitating against and demonising Jews whilst in opposition. Again, the language structures of Braverman and Goebbels are there to compare. You don't want to accept it and that's your right. Doesn't mean the comparison isn't valid.
    If the Government had spent an awful lot of time agitating against and demonising Jews then you might have a point, yes.

    Unfortunately, the only one who did that was the ex-LOTO and his fellow travellers.
    “Swarms” of migrants “invading” England, as one would describe a foreign species of flying insect. That’s dehumanising at any level.
  • Reflecting on the debate last night I have changed my opinion a bit.

    Lineker was guilty of hyperbole in comparing the language to 1930s Germany, which everyone reasonably equates to the Nazis even if he did not use the word.

    He went too far in making a point about his dislike for the immigration proposals (which I share).

    However, the BBC were totally wrong to ban him and will likely have to backtrack.

    Kudos to those on here who do not support Lineker's views but defend his right to state them.

    To those who are happy to see him banned I say: we see your true colours now.

    Listen to the LBC clip posted above. It's absolutely fair to compare this government to the Nazis because you can literally substitute "refugee" for "Jew" in Braverman's speeches and it sounds like Joseph himself wrote them for her

    The Final Solution came after a decade and more of nasty propaganda written specifically to demonise. The Conservative Party are publishing their own nasty propaganda to demonise. Using the same rhetorical structures. To whip up public hate mobs. Which the propagandist then uses as something to blame the victims for.

    Not everything Nazi immediately becomes the holocaust. Where you can't talk about the dark arts of Goebbels because of genocide. We bloody well can precisely to stop things leading that far. The Nazis wanted to expel the Jews. A small chunk of Tory voters want to expel the refugees. Sink them if needed. And the Conservative Party is pandering to this. For votes.
    Not sure you're on message.

    The line is "Look at his tweet, Lineker didn't compare the government to Nazis!"
    He DID compare them to the Nazis. And as there is demonstrable comparisons between Braverman and Goebbels he was right to do so
    At least you admit it.

    Please tell it to the Herd.
    I don't know this herd. Are the similar to the "swarm" or the "invasion" your lot refer to in an obviously un-Nazi way?
  • Reeves says Labour will keep the triple lock.

    Idiotic move. Scrap it now.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    I'm not sure exactly what language Lineker was referring to, but obviously it can be acceptable to compare something to Nazi propaganda even when the person hasn't actually built gas Chambers or parroted the exact views of Hitler about Jewish people in Mein Kampf.

    For example I think we can all agree that David Cameron's language in 2015 when he talked about "swarms" of migrants was similar to language used by Nazis.
  • Here we go again.

    Isn’t the market wonderful until it crashes, then socialism is required for the losses.

    Reeves just committed Labour to the triple lock rise for pensioners in the next parliament
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    Truth is I can now see both sides of the 'Lineker right or wrong' argument.

    This government is of course nothing like the Nazis (thank God).

    Otoh dehumanising language led in no small part to the Nazis, and the Nazis didn't start with the death camps, they started with incremental reductions in liberties.

    I'm going out the the workshop to make some sawdust and consider my position further.

    Happy debating!

    I think some people feel they simply can't make their point without hyperbole, and social media bubbles haven't helped here.

    The government has used language like stopped, banned, denied, detained and deported.

    You could argue that's a tough line but it's not dehumanising.
    I think this whole saga will turn out to be a net gain for the government. Whatever the ins and outs of the policy or language this has signalled to voters that the Tories do seem determined to end the boat crossings asap and if the do that's worth 7-8% in the polls IMO.
    You always do Max until it turns out to be the opposite. Remember Quasi's rock n' roll "real" Conservative budget.
    No, I said that would go badly from the off and that it would go extremely badly unless they announced spending cuts to match the tax cuts.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 6,760
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also on SVB UK, if Hunt does nothing around 300 perfectly viable startups will be looking at the abyss because they can't make payroll and up to 20k highly paid and productive jobs will disappear from the economy. He's got to step in tomorrow and ensure access to finance is available until the SVB UK book has been purchased. It is absolutely imperative, if he doesn't the UK will take a big hit to its reputation for stable business conditions, if he does it will be greatly enhanced, especially if the sale of the SVB UK book goes smoothly because of ring fencing and UK capital regulations.

    How many pounds for how much time, roughly?

    It's clearly the sort of thing government should be doing, as cash machine of last resort, but quite a few recent decisions seem motivated by spending as little as possible today, whatever the consequences down the line.
    Privatise the profits, nationalise the losses?

    I can see why the City wants that.
    Except the government is just acting as a short term lender to hundreds of companies while some other bank buys the (highly profitable and well capitalised) UK arm of SVB. There's no losses. You just see what you want to see.
    I see that the City wants another bailout.

    If the assets are so obviously valuable then let other companies buy them.

    They will.

    But until they do the assets are frozen

    So that means Foxy.com can’t make payroll and goes bankrupt.

    What the government is doing is allowing Foxy.com to make payroll. It will be repaid - as first claim - when the assets are sold (it’s basically debtor-in-possession lending)

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Lineker’s policy of spreading hatred of the government uses immeasurable hyperbole and weasel words not dissimilar to those employed by usurpers looking to foment rebellion against democratically elected governments through the ages

    ChatGPT ?
    Lineker is using WeaselGPT

    "Not dissimilar to language used in Germany in the 30s"

    is weasel for

    "Similar to Nazi propaganda"
    Given that 1930-33 includes the critical final years of Weimar and the elections that put paid to it, that wouldn't stand up for a moment in a law court.
    Yes, that's right. Lineker was absolutely referring to the Weimar Republic.
    The Nazis spent an awful lot of time agitating against and demonising Jews whilst in opposition. Again, the language structures of Braverman and Goebbels are there to compare. You don't want to accept it and that's your right. Doesn't mean the comparison isn't valid.
    Off to the naughty corner and have a chat with Leon
    How do you know I am not He?
    You would have told us you were in a seven star hotel eating abalone sushi while watching mermaids dancing in the South Pacifc.

    As it is you are looking at a raw turnip pick and mix on a rainy day near Dingwall

    Maybe he’s Malc then.
  • Here we go again.

    Isn’t the market wonderful until it crashes, then socialism is required for the losses.

    The risk is that one crash rapidly mushrooms into a lot of crashes. The US Fed not intervening with Lehman Brothers created the chain of events which crippled us with austerity.

    Whether you agree with the ethics or not this is a lose lose situation. Personally I'd rather them stop any mushrooming early as it's the lowest cost and least risk.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also on SVB UK, if Hunt does nothing around 300 perfectly viable startups will be looking at the abyss because they can't make payroll and up to 20k highly paid and productive jobs will disappear from the economy. He's got to step in tomorrow and ensure access to finance is available until the SVB UK book has been purchased. It is absolutely imperative, if he doesn't the UK will take a big hit to its reputation for stable business conditions, if he does it will be greatly enhanced, especially if the sale of the SVB UK book goes smoothly because of ring fencing and UK capital regulations.

    How many pounds for how much time, roughly?

    It's clearly the sort of thing government should be doing, as cash machine of last resort, but quite a few recent decisions seem motivated by spending as little as possible today, whatever the consequences down the line.
    Privatise the profits, nationalise the losses?

    I can see why the City wants that.
    The losses aren’t in London

    But would you prefer that 300 viable companies close as an alternative?

    I just see City folk running for a government bailout again, as soon as the wind turns against them.

    But it's not the city, it's the end clients? The actual companies that have money with SVB UK. You know, not bankers?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    As mentioned by others, it was the language, not the ethnicity of the perpetrators. The language starts the process off. It was the same with Brexit. Demonise immigrants and asylum seekers and other brown people to win people's votes, then throw up their hands in horror when the mob starts taking the law into their own hands.
    I think thats complete tosh.

    In agitprop land common sense goes out the window. It might be more appropriate to think that if we have had an extra 10 million people in the population in a country which has not built houses or expanded its national infrastructure , why is it a good idea to expand immigration at a level we cannot support.

    The UK has always been a mongrel nation so race has nothing to do with it.

    Well, that's your opinion, and unlike what's happened to Lineker, you can express that opinion, like me. On the other hand, I remember Old Enoch, and the scum of the NF in the 70s with their tactics, very similar to ukip with Farage, and leaveuk or whatever they were called, many of whom, are now in our present Brexit Conservative party.
    I grew up in Ulster in the 70s, your girly demos dont really impress me. I have a much deeper experience of in your face nationalism and its consequences.
  • Here we go again.

    Isn’t the market wonderful until it crashes, then socialism is required for the losses.

    The risk is that one crash rapidly mushrooms into a lot of crashes. The US Fed not intervening with Lehman Brothers created the chain of events which crippled us with austerity.

    Whether you agree with the ethics or not this is a lose lose situation. Personally I'd rather them stop any mushrooming early as it's the lowest cost and least risk.
    It’s a fair point. I’m just pointing out that the market inherently cannot work without government support. So the current Tory ideology is a failure
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Tom Davie is a useless waffler and should resign.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/entertainment-arts-64895316

    How many DGs have managed to make our most internationaly respected institution look so shabby.

    He absolutely has to go.
    Previous DGs have not made the Beeb LOOK shabby; they have actually MADE it shabby.

    Decades back, it had a world-leading brand. If the BBC management had not been so backward looking, happy in their comfy licence fee poll tax, they might have actually seen the change coming at them, hard and fast.

    BBC management has been woeful, from at least the risible John Birt onwards.
    They had due warning since 1986 when the Peacock report into financing the BBC was published.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    A rather devastating opinion piece in the Guardian/Observer about society's toleration of violence against women.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/12/wife-of-sir-stanley-couldnt-tolerate-his-abuse-neither-should-rest-of-us

    No-one is spared criticism. Something a bit sobering to consider of a Sunday morning.

    One of the odder things about Boris is his insecure pandering to the vile Stanley even after the way Stanley tried to embarrass and undermine Boris during covid.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Here we go again.

    Isn’t the market wonderful until it crashes, then socialism is required for the losses.

    The risk is that one crash rapidly mushrooms into a lot of crashes. The US Fed not intervening with Lehman Brothers created the chain of events which crippled us with austerity.

    Whether you agree with the ethics or not this is a lose lose situation. Personally I'd rather them stop any mushrooming early as it's the lowest cost and least risk.
    It’s a fair point. I’m just pointing out that the market inherently cannot work without government support. So the current Tory ideology is a failure
    The Conservatives have an ideology ?

  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    Off topic but I am a bit worried about @squareroot2

    He made a couple of very weird posts in reply to me earlier that made no sense (unless he thinks I am @MikeSmithson, which obviously I am not) and then disappeared.

    Just a little concerned.
  • https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1634851648622194688

    Simon Clarke there, supporting cancel culture
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876

    A rather devastating opinion piece in the Guardian/Observer about society's toleration of violence against women.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/12/wife-of-sir-stanley-couldnt-tolerate-his-abuse-neither-should-rest-of-us

    No-one is spared criticism. Something a bit sobering to consider of a Sunday morning.

    One of the odder things about Boris is his insecure pandering to the vile Stanley even after the way Stanley tried to embarrass and undermine Boris during covid.

    He's the only Dad he had. And he didn't spend much time around other Dads when he was growing up. He doesn't know Dads don't have to be like that. It explains a hell of a lot.

  • Here we go again.

    Isn’t the market wonderful until it crashes, then socialism is required for the losses.

    The risk is that one crash rapidly mushrooms into a lot of crashes. The US Fed not intervening with Lehman Brothers created the chain of events which crippled us with austerity.

    Whether you agree with the ethics or not this is a lose lose situation. Personally I'd rather them stop any mushrooming early as it's the lowest cost and least risk.
    It’s a fair point. I’m just pointing out that the market inherently cannot work without government support. So the current Tory ideology is a failure
    The Conservatives have an ideology ?

    Help their mates yes
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Here we go again.

    Isn’t the market wonderful until it crashes, then socialism is required for the losses.

    The risk is that one crash rapidly mushrooms into a lot of crashes. The US Fed not intervening with Lehman Brothers created the chain of events which crippled us with austerity.

    Whether you agree with the ethics or not this is a lose lose situation. Personally I'd rather them stop any mushrooming early as it's the lowest cost and least risk.
    It’s a fair point. I’m just pointing out that the market inherently cannot work without government support. So the current Tory ideology is a failure
    The Conservatives have an ideology ?

    Help their mates yes
    Ah collectivism. Sounds a bit marxist.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    kjh said:

    Off topic but I am a bit worried about @squareroot2

    He made a couple of very weird posts in reply to me earlier that made no sense (unless he thinks I am @MikeSmithson, which obviously I am not) and then disappeared.

    Just a little concerned.

    Ignore, I can see he has posted since.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,335

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's Andrew Neil sporting a tie from right wing think tank, the Adam Smith Institute, on the Daily Politics show in 2017 - not MOTD, an actual politics show

    The same think tank that wants to scrap the BBC licence fee and privatise the BBC

    He wasn't suspended

    #IStandWithGary


    https://twitter.com/russellengland/status/1634427676164227073?s=46

    Sorry.

    You think wearing an Adam Smith tie is equivalent to comparing the government of the day to Nazis?

    Personally, I'm disgusted that Lineker was suspended as a sports commentator for sale stupid (but not illegal) views.

    But the two incidence are not equivalent.
    Sorry, Robert, but you're misunderstanding the premise of the BBC action against Lineker.
    He wasn't removed for comparing the govt to Nazis (nor did he do that, so you need to go back to what was said), he was removed for breaching impartiality.
    On those terms, Neil's action is *exactly* equivalent.
    Exactly read my post at 8.28 with an actual bbc complaints response about Andrew Neil Cut and paste time.

    The Chair and the DG need to go
    They are going! Having suspended Gary Crispbag for not being impartial like them, they can't reinstate him and pretend everyone can go back to how they were.

    When he comes back, they will have to resign. Because the firestorm or uncomfortable questions will immolate both them and their patrons in the Conservative Party.
    And we still have the Attenborough row to look forward to. Slightly different but the basic point is there - BBC trying to anticipate their lords' will, a Becket style.
    Lineker compared the language of our present government to the government of Germany in the 30s. He never mentioned Nazis or concentration camps or the Holocaust. If our present government are twitchy about it, that's their problem, and if the cap fits....

    We are always saying in schools that onlookers who say nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
    'The government of Germany in the 1930s' means the Nazis.

    Was it hyperbolic? Arguably.

    Is it understandable? Definitely.

    If the government don't want to be compared to a bunch of racist criminals, then they shouldn't openly commit crimes while acting like a bunch of racists.

    It's really not that hard.

    And that's in any case secondary to the contractual hole the BBC has now dug itself into with a Magla-mole sized drill, which is rapidly becoming the main story and could engulf the Beeb, enraging their grey vote who watch it all the time.
    Right.

    So an Asian PM, an Asian HoSec with a Jewish husband and a black Foreign secretary are all closet Nazis ?

    Doesn't sound likely to me.
    As mentioned by others, it was the language, not the ethnicity of the perpetrators. The language starts the process off. It was the same with Brexit. Demonise immigrants and asylum seekers and other brown people to win people's votes, then throw up their hands in horror when the mob starts taking the law into their own hands.
    I think thats complete tosh.

    In agitprop land common sense goes out the window. It might be more appropriate to think that if we have had an extra 10 million people in the population in a country which has not built houses or expanded its national infrastructure , why is it a good idea to expand immigration at a level we cannot support.

    The UK has always been a mongrel nation so race has nothing to do with it.

    Well, that's your opinion, and unlike what's happened to Lineker, you can express that opinion, like me. On the other hand, I remember Old Enoch, and the scum of the NF in the 70s with their tactics, very similar to ukip with Farage, and leaveuk or whatever they were called, many of whom, are now in our present Brexit Conservative party.
    I grew up in Ulster in the 70s, your girly demos dont really impress me. I have a much deeper experience of in your face nationalism and its consequences.
    you have my sympathy.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    Reeves says Labour will keep the triple lock.

    Idiotic move. Scrap it now.

    Doesn't mean they will. Its just most likely a lie for the manifesto
This discussion has been closed.