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Somerton & Frome – the next CON by-election defence? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,811

    DougSeal said:

    kle4 said:

    Most of those activities are de rigeur in Frome....

    When in Frome...
    Very good on paper but sadly Frome rhymes with room.
    I'm glad someone said this, I live not far from it and was pulling my hair out at this direction of punning.

    Read the Frome, people.
    Noted, but you have to allow us a little Frome to manouevre.
    On topic, is it the case that Warburton should ask not for Frome the bell tolls?
    Should we be asking if Warburton is toast?
    On MP candidate selection they really need to learn how to cut the wheat from the chaff.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,637
    You would think that Warburton could earn an honest crust.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,229
    edited February 2023

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Most of those activities are de rigeur in Frome....

    You're sounding increasingly desperate in your justifications of the Conservative Party

    Mark's an honest Tory.
    That he may be but my point is about sounding increasingly desperate in justifying them. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. xx

    MM aside, there really is nothing left by which to justify this Conservative Government.

    I sense that quite a few punters, blinded by recency bias, are approaching this all wrong. It's time to believe the polls. It's not about 'might a NOM be likely?' or about 'precedence' or about Sunak 'staging a recovery.'

    They are going to be on the receiving end of the full wrath and vengeance of the electorate.

    The real question is just how low the tories will sink. I've said 100-150 but it might be fewer.
    You may be right and I'm not altogether comfortable with it.

    In my (now considerablle) experience, Governments operate best when there is a decent Opposition. I can't see the SNP providing that.

    Personally I'd like to see the iniquitous FPTP system abolished and some form of voting system established that is more suited to a modern democracy. There is zilch chance of that if Labour has a 400 seat majority.
    I just don't see that.

    I know that HY is clutching at straws and only uses his best poll and ignores ALL the rest to reach his conclusion, but even though he isn't showing his working out I suspect he is right.

    The Conservatives are smart, hungry to win, and are busy rolling the pitch for a close contest. Wild populism might not turn enough heads during times of economic turmoil, but if things start look brighter they may gain some traction. Add to that, Labour's poor vote economy, piling on votes in the wrong places. Then the Conservatives, if all goes to plan could preside over one enormous voter disenfranchisement scandal, (sorry, we "misunderestimated" how many young voters would be turned away, but no matter) an issue the Labour Party and LDs are yet to understand.

    I see no reason why 1992 can't be repeated.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,811
    edited February 2023
    Foxy said:

    It does seem bonkers that a Tory party with a very large majority has managed to turn itself into such a lame duck government.

    As Hague recently said of recent Tory troubles:

    Writing in the Times, he added: "If you became Prime Minister, with a majority behind you and a decent term in front of you, but were overthrown amid chaos, there is indeed someone to blame. It’s you."

    This is a main reason the whinging Dorries' of the world are wrong about the lionisation of their heroes - if they were going to do well at the next GE, if Boris or Truss for example were competent, they should never have been vulnerable to removal given the majority.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,664
    Can’t we shun the Frome-ious badinage ?
  • Options
    MangoMango Posts: 1,013
    DavidL said:

    Where do all the parties get these people? Natalie McGarry, Jared O'Mara and now this. Plus, of course, the truly incredible George Santos in the States. Politics these days attracts narcissists, liars and fraudsters whilst largely repelling reasonably competent people who actually want to do some good. Its a danger to democracy.

    Yet another flaw of FPTP.

    If you have a preferred party, you get one candidate imposed.

    Under STV all these terrible candidates are also running against a couple of better candidates from the same party and you the voter get to choose.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    Maybe it was Aliens relying on What 3 Words and getting lost as a result? Or maybe the objects escaped from a Wuhan lab?
    Remember the Second Golden Law of PB:


    “In the end, it always turns out that Leon was right”
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    It does seem bonkers that a Tory party with a very large majority has managed to turn itself into such a lame duck government.

    It has been spectacular, hasn't it? Though the strange coalition assembled in 2019 did contain the seeds of its own destruction.

    You can see where stories like Faust came from.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,637
    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    A big bag full of helium.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,811
    Mango said:

    DavidL said:

    Where do all the parties get these people? Natalie McGarry, Jared O'Mara and now this. Plus, of course, the truly incredible George Santos in the States. Politics these days attracts narcissists, liars and fraudsters whilst largely repelling reasonably competent people who actually want to do some good. Its a danger to democracy.

    Yet another flaw of FPTP.

    If you have a preferred party, you get one candidate imposed.

    Under STV all these terrible candidates are also running against a couple of better candidates from the same party and you the voter get to choose.
    Hmm, I like PR systems for being, well, more proportionate, but I'm not sure how much people really have a chance to figure out which party selected hack is better or worse based on an election campaign. Real duffers sneak through all the time.
  • Options
    KeystoneKeystone Posts: 127

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Meanwhile Labour have decided to respond to the Tories false attacks about Labour's imaginary manipulation by the RMT with it's own stupid attack website.

    We're supposed to be horrified that government ministers stayed in hotels whilst abroad on genuine government business. Shocked.

    It's utterly stupid. They want to go after Tory sleaze and pocketing our money. I get that. This government is openly corrupt. So go after their corrupt contracts and coincidental peerages. Not minister stays in hotel "shock"

    Political wonks can be so stupid sometimes. We see it time and time again where effective criticisms are not utilised, or are diminished by also using ineffective ones, or even outright untrue claims.

    In the current climate the tories are not going to get benefit of the doubt but it's still a waste if that is all there is to that story.
    Expensive hotels are easy to understand and make for good pictures. I assume they are going for the smear by association (I don’t know the story) and will probably succeed among people who don’t dig into the detail

    Undoubtedly, but they don't need to go that route.

    There's a three course meal of scandals already laid on, no need to fill up on snacks.
    They believe in kicking their enemy while he’s on the ground
    Nah. The Conservatives will not be able to appeal to Red Wall voters when they're associated with private excess and greed.

    Just politics.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,637
    Mango said:

    DavidL said:

    Where do all the parties get these people? Natalie McGarry, Jared O'Mara and now this. Plus, of course, the truly incredible George Santos in the States. Politics these days attracts narcissists, liars and fraudsters whilst largely repelling reasonably competent people who actually want to do some good. Its a danger to democracy.

    Yet another flaw of FPTP.

    If you have a preferred party, you get one candidate imposed.

    Under STV all these terrible candidates are also running against a couple of better candidates from the same party and you the voter get to choose.
    If you want to influence candidate selection, join a political party.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,152

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Most of those activities are de rigeur in Frome....

    You're sounding increasingly desperate in your justifications of the Conservative Party

    Mark's an honest Tory.
    That he may be but my point is about sounding increasingly desperate in justifying them. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. xx

    MM aside, there really is nothing left by which to justify this Conservative Government.

    I sense that quite a few punters, blinded by recency bias, are approaching this all wrong. It's time to believe the polls. It's not about 'might a NOM be likely?' or about 'precedence' or about Sunak 'staging a recovery.'

    They are going to be on the receiving end of the full wrath and vengeance of the electorate.

    The real question is just how low the tories will sink. I've said 100-150 but it might be fewer.
    You may be right and I'm not altogether comfortable with it.

    In my (now considerablle) experience, Governments operate best when there is a decent Opposition. I can't see the SNP providing that.

    Personally I'd like to see the iniquitous FPTP system abolished and some form of voting system established that is more suited to a modern democracy. There is zilch chance of that if Labour has a 400 seat majority.
    I just don't see that.

    I know that HY is clutching at straws and only uses his best poll and ignores ALL the rest to reach his conclusion, but even though he isn't showing his working out I suspect he is right.

    The Conservatives are smart, hungry to win, and are busy rolling the pitch for a close contest. Wild populism might not turn enough heads during times of economic turmoil, but if things start look brighter they may gain some traction. Add to that, Labour's poor vote economy, piling on votes in the wrong places. Then the Conservatives, if all goes to plan could preside over one enormous voter disenfranchisement scandal, (sorry, we "misunderestimated" how many young voters would be turned away, but no matter) an issue the Labour Party and LDs are yet to understand.

    I see no reason why 1992 can't be repeated.
    Sorry - you lost me at “…smart and hungry to win…” They’re neither. They are not particularly successful at anything at the moment and seem exhausted. And I don’t think that Labour will have to rely on the younger vote that never materialised anyway.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,664

    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    A big bag full of helium.
    I hope they succeed in recovering the debris.
    If nothing else, it’s an opportunity to debunk the evidentiary value of the “no obvious means od propulsion” stuff which gets Leon overexcited.
  • Options
    TERF Island strikes again

    My huge thanks to @HadleyFreeman and the entire team at @thetimes for their support for ‘Time to Think: The Inside Story of the Collapse of the Tavistock’s Gender Service for Children’
    It’s not everyday your book makes cover of both the paper and Magazine, and the Leader column


    https://twitter.com/hannahsbee/status/1624696735929974784
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,664
    Nigelb said:

    Can’t we shun the Frome-ious badinage ?

    No likes from you bunch of slithy toves ?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,653
    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    Possibly weather balloons. Apparently NOAA isn’t required to log them when released. Hundreds flying around all the time. The pictures certainly look a bit like weather balloons.
  • Options
    stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,779
    edited February 2023
    Completely off topic but I need to say this somewhere. On my iPad I get a Google newsfeed which seems to be tailored to some of my interests. Horse racing, the economy, politics etc. But I also frequently gets links to articles about the BBC newsreader Naga Munchetty from The Daily Express and they are always negative. She’s either pulling a face or moving away from a co-presenter or something like that. Can anyone offer a reason behind this? Seems like a deliberate campaign to create ill feeling towards her.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321

    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    A big bag full of helium.
    You’d think experienced US and Canadian airforce pilots would recognise balloons


    “Some of the F-22 Pilots who Tracked the Aircraft that was downed over Alaska yesterday said that it “Interfered with their Sensors" and that “They could see No Propulsion Systems on the Aircraft not knowing how it could possibly be staying in the Air”.”

    https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624532938262994945?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

  • Options

    Foxy said:

    It does seem bonkers that a Tory party with a very large majority has managed to turn itself into such a lame duck government.

    It has been spectacular, hasn't it? Though the strange coalition assembled in 2019 did contain the seeds of its own destruction.

    You can see where stories like Faust came from.
    As little time as I have for the Tory party, I’d prefer Johnstone to occupy the role of Faust and suffer his fate rather than the Cons. As things stand the fecker seems to be Mephistopheles and will get away scot-free. Again.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,811
    edited February 2023
    It's pretty clear the BBC Chairman still thinks he did nothing wrong and is just mouthing platitudes in response to criticism, which doesn't disguise the entitled 'Why are you still bringing this up? I gave you my answer, boy' tone of his response.

    He's obviously a dodgy git. No one in that position would legitimately be so dumb as to think 'Well, I brought this up with the Cabinet Secretary as worth knowing, so obviously there's no need to let the people actually recommending my appointment know about it'. On the contrary, it shows he knows he needed to bring it up and was trying to conceal it until he was already in post.

    Yet another attempted use of the 'I'm an idiot' defence which is not working because the person using it is not making the effort to even appear sincerely contrite. With that desperate defence you have to really go for it, you cannot try to equivocate that you did nothing wrong but also you are sorry for doing wrong.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64610122
  • Options
    stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,779
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Can’t we shun the Frome-ious badinage ?

    No likes from you bunch of slithy toves ?
    Oh frabjous day!
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    A big bag full of helium.
    I hope they succeed in recovering the debris.
    If nothing else, it’s an opportunity to debunk the evidentiary value of the “no obvious means od propulsion” stuff which gets Leon overexcited.
    As ever, in this stage of the narrative, it’s not the sightings that are especially interesting, it’s the truly bizarre reactions of the US (and now Canadian) military and political establishment. And as ever you miss the point

    They are using the exact terminology of ufologists. Words that wouid have you basically locked in a loony bin 5 years ago

    “Jammed sensors”. “No obvious means of propulsion”

    Why the F are they saying this crazy stuff?
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,230
    kle4 said:

    It's pretty clear the BBC Chairman still thinks he did nothing wrong and is just mouthing platitudes in response to criticism, which doesn't disguise the entitled 'Why are you still bringing this up? I gave you my answer, boy' tone of his response.

    He's obviously a dodgy git. No one in that position would legitimately be so dumb as to think 'Well, I brought this up with the Cabinet Secretary as worth knowing, so obviously there's no need to let the people actually recommending my appointment know about it'. On the contrary, it shows he knows he needed to bring it up and was trying to conceal it until he was already in post.

    Yet another attempted use of the 'I'm an idiot' defence which is not working because the person using it is not making the effort to even appear sincerely contrite. With that desperate defence you have to really go for it, you cannot try to equivocate that you did not nothing wrong but also you are sorry for doing wrong.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64610122

    The basic rule of thumb is that ANYONE appointed by Johnson is a dodgy git tbf.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,695

    Mango said:

    DavidL said:

    Where do all the parties get these people? Natalie McGarry, Jared O'Mara and now this. Plus, of course, the truly incredible George Santos in the States. Politics these days attracts narcissists, liars and fraudsters whilst largely repelling reasonably competent people who actually want to do some good. Its a danger to democracy.

    Yet another flaw of FPTP.

    If you have a preferred party, you get one candidate imposed.

    Under STV all these terrible candidates are also running against a couple of better candidates from the same party and you the voter get to choose.
    If you want to influence candidate selection, join a political party.
    Doesn't work in Bolton that way!

    https://labourlist.org/2023/02/bolton-north-east-brings-labours-selection-process-back-under-scrutiny/
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,637
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    A big bag full of helium.
    You’d think experienced US and Canadian airforce pilots would recognise balloons


    “Some of the F-22 Pilots who Tracked the Aircraft that was downed over Alaska yesterday said that it “Interfered with their Sensors" and that “They could see No Propulsion Systems on the Aircraft not knowing how it could possibly be staying in the Air”.”

    https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624532938262994945?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    China is making helium balloons that look like tictac UAPs just to take the piss.

    Stick some electronic gadgetry inside for added LOLs.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,047
    Warburton has quite an interesting CV. Music teacher, businessman. Ah well.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,664
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    A big bag full of helium.
    I hope they succeed in recovering the debris.
    If nothing else, it’s an opportunity to debunk the evidentiary value of the “no obvious means od propulsion” stuff which gets Leon overexcited.
    As ever, in this stage of the narrative, it’s not the sightings that are especially interesting, it’s the truly bizarre reactions of the US (and now Canadian) military and political establishment. And as ever you miss the point

    They are using the exact terminology of ufologists. Words that wouid have you basically locked in a loony bin 5 years ago

    “Jammed sensors”. “No obvious means of propulsion”

    Why the F are they saying this crazy stuff?
    Let’s wait for them to pick up the bits.
    As ever, you prefer speculation to hard evidence.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,311
    IanB2 said:

    @StuartDickson

    Hyufd The Hopeful keeps telling us of the poll evidence that indicates NOM as the likely GE outcome, but even the crude workings of Electoral Calculus are suggesting little more than 100 Tory MPs surviving the next GE. Nor do you have to a Labour or LD partisan to see why even this might be a serious overestimate.

    For a start, there is tactical voting. Then there's the distinct possibility of an LD uplift in the polls when they begin to receive more publicity, as they normally do during a GE. Davey is no superstar but he is no mug either, and nor is Starmer. They are not going to have to dazzle to look preferable to the incumbents.

    There is still a chance of a Tory recovery. Sunak is nothing if not sensible. If the Party plods on and avoids serious mistakes (like sacking him, for instance), if the economy improves a bit, if Labour begins to fragment and the Unions get too uppity, there is a chance the Tories get out of their current mess and escape with a decent rump of opposition MPs.

    There is however at least as much chance that the opposite happens, in which case we really could be talking about near extinction and the SNP as HM Official Opposition.

    There's a new AI beta out, ChatHYUFD; have you tried it yet?:

    "The energy and passion within our party is stronger than ever, and I truly believe that come election day, we will surprise everyone with a resounding victory. We have the policies and the people to bring real change to this country, and I won't give up on that just because of a few numbers on a page. I am, and always will be, a committed Conservative supporter, and I know that together, we will make history."
    I've started spotting columns in some of the online newspapers that, due to the cliche count, general tone, and ultimately complete vapid pointlessness, make me suspect they were written by ChatGPT. These columns existed long before ChatGPT, but I can't see why newspapers will continue to pay people to write them when they can get the computer algorithm to do it instead.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,695
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    A big bag full of helium.
    I hope they succeed in recovering the debris.
    If nothing else, it’s an opportunity to debunk the evidentiary value of the “no obvious means od propulsion” stuff which gets Leon overexcited.
    As ever, in this stage of the narrative, it’s not the sightings that are especially interesting, it’s the truly bizarre reactions of the US (and now Canadian) military and political establishment. And as ever you miss the point

    They are using the exact terminology of ufologists. Words that wouid have you basically locked in a loony bin 5 years ago

    “Jammed sensors”. “No obvious means of propulsion”

    Why the F are they saying this crazy stuff?
    When the balloon goes up we will have to weather the consequences.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    Possible solutions

    1. America (and Canada) is engaged in an enormous years long campaign to confuse the Chinese with psyops

    2 the Chinese actually have some bizarre balloon technology that genuinely bewilders experienced NATO pilots

    3 everyone in America has gone mad

    4. Everyone in America now has an iq of 5

    5. Aliens
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,811
    Foxy said:

    Mango said:

    DavidL said:

    Where do all the parties get these people? Natalie McGarry, Jared O'Mara and now this. Plus, of course, the truly incredible George Santos in the States. Politics these days attracts narcissists, liars and fraudsters whilst largely repelling reasonably competent people who actually want to do some good. Its a danger to democracy.

    Yet another flaw of FPTP.

    If you have a preferred party, you get one candidate imposed.

    Under STV all these terrible candidates are also running against a couple of better candidates from the same party and you the voter get to choose.
    If you want to influence candidate selection, join a political party.
    Doesn't work in Bolton that way!

    https://labourlist.org/2023/02/bolton-north-east-brings-labours-selection-process-back-under-scrutiny/
    Drennan is just the latest example of a candidate not being longlisted despite receiving trade union backing, with his campaign having been endorsed by Unite, UNISON, GMB and the CWU. Though the full reasoning behind exclusions does not tend to be publicised, there is a clear pattern of candidates on the left of the party being blocked at the longlisting stage while other candidates known to have caused controversy make it through and even win selection

    Are you telling me that despite being critical of the leadership putting its thumb on the scales to aid its own faction under the last leadership, that the current leadership is doing the same thing?

    The wonders truly will never cease.
  • Options
    MangoMango Posts: 1,013
    kle4 said:

    Mango said:

    DavidL said:

    Where do all the parties get these people? Natalie McGarry, Jared O'Mara and now this. Plus, of course, the truly incredible George Santos in the States. Politics these days attracts narcissists, liars and fraudsters whilst largely repelling reasonably competent people who actually want to do some good. Its a danger to democracy.

    Yet another flaw of FPTP.

    If you have a preferred party, you get one candidate imposed.

    Under STV all these terrible candidates are also running against a couple of better candidates from the same party and you the voter get to choose.
    Hmm, I like PR systems for being, well, more proportionate, but I'm not sure how much people really have a chance to figure out which party selected hack is better or worse based on an election campaign. Real duffers sneak through all the time.
    If your argument is that we should not do things that are better because they're not perfect, then you've lost me.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    A big bag full of helium.
    You’d think experienced US and Canadian airforce pilots would recognise balloons


    “Some of the F-22 Pilots who Tracked the Aircraft that was downed over Alaska yesterday said that it “Interfered with their Sensors" and that “They could see No Propulsion Systems on the Aircraft not knowing how it could possibly be staying in the Air”.”

    https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624532938262994945?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    China is making helium balloons that look like tictac UAPs just to take the piss.

    Stick some electronic gadgetry inside for added LOLs.
    That’s actually not a bad guess
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited February 2023
    Possible solutions

    1. America (and Canada) is engaged in an enormous years long campaign to confuse the Chinese with psyops

    2 the Chinese actually have some bizarre balloon technology that genuinely bewilders experienced NATO pilots

    3 everyone in America has gone mad

    4. Everyone in America now has an iq of 5

    5. Aliens


    6 The reports of what pilots saw are bollocks.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,811
    edited February 2023
    Mango said:

    kle4 said:

    Mango said:

    DavidL said:

    Where do all the parties get these people? Natalie McGarry, Jared O'Mara and now this. Plus, of course, the truly incredible George Santos in the States. Politics these days attracts narcissists, liars and fraudsters whilst largely repelling reasonably competent people who actually want to do some good. Its a danger to democracy.

    Yet another flaw of FPTP.

    If you have a preferred party, you get one candidate imposed.

    Under STV all these terrible candidates are also running against a couple of better candidates from the same party and you the voter get to choose.
    Hmm, I like PR systems for being, well, more proportionate, but I'm not sure how much people really have a chance to figure out which party selected hack is better or worse based on an election campaign. Real duffers sneak through all the time.
    If your argument is that we should not do things that are better because they're not perfect, then you've lost me.
    No, I still want PR as being better, I just don't think it will solve that particular problem as I think the issue is about who gets chosen by the party, not how the public selects from a pool of candidates. What if the whole lot are duffers?

    Like when people think a codified constitution will magically solve various political problems, or that mere memebrship of some organisation or treaty guarantees rights, when words on paper do no such thing and it takes action.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,695
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    A big bag full of helium.
    I hope they succeed in recovering the debris.
    If nothing else, it’s an opportunity to debunk the evidentiary value of the “no obvious means od propulsion” stuff which gets Leon overexcited.
    As ever, in this stage of the narrative, it’s not the sightings that are especially interesting, it’s the truly bizarre reactions of the US (and now Canadian) military and political establishment. And as ever you miss the point

    They are using the exact terminology of ufologists. Words that wouid have you basically locked in a loony bin 5 years ago

    “Jammed sensors”. “No obvious means of propulsion”

    Why the F are they saying this crazy stuff?
    If they say these are Chinese balloons then shooting them down starts to be provocative.

    Shooting down Unidentified objects has the same effect but lower key.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,152
    stjohn said:

    Completely off topic but I need to say this somewhere. On my iPad I get a Google newsfeed which seems to be tailored to some of my interests. Horse racing, the economy, politics etc. But I also frequently gets links to articles about the BBC newsreader Naga Munchetty from The Daily Express and they are always negative. She’s either pulling a face or moving away from a co-presenter or something like that. Can anyone offer a reason behind this? Seems like a deliberate campaign to create ill feeling towards her.

    I think they are pushed because they get engagement. I get those as well together with similar (although less frequent) regarding Holly Willoughby and Philip Schofield. They’re perfect clickbait fodder for whatever reason. Someone or something analysed engagement and found she drive it. Add a bit of anger and Bob’s your uncle
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    Somerton and Frome went LD in 1997 so they should win any by election there
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,803

    Foxy said:

    For the forged document to obtain a loan, a client of mine found himself sentenced to the Scrubs for 26 months.

    This is like the dying years of the Major Government, but on steroids. Although in 1997 the Conservatives didn't have Brexit bonuses, a war with Russia, a Johnson redux and 30p Lee to save the day.

    Major had much more authority and pondus than Sunak. He was pro-Europe, pro-trade and pro-stability. He also had a Cabinet behind him that was not packed full of incompetents, thugs and crypto-fascists.

    Sunak is a political pygmy compared to Major, who had the thumping mandate of having won a general election with a record number of votes.

    Ok, so Starmer is also a pygmy compared to Blair, but Labour didn’t win the 1997 election, the Tories lost it. On current form, Sunak’s government is going to lose far more spectacularly that Major’s did.

    Major managed to retain 165 Tory seats. That would be an astonishing achievement if Sunak manages to turn this around and get even within the ballpark of that mighty figure.

    Latest MRP:

    Our new large MRP poll with @FindoutnowUK for @Telegraph shows #Labour 25% ahead and the Conservatives set to get fewer seats than the SNP. Details at:

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_mrppoll_20230209.html



    https://twitter.com/electcalculus/status/1623639165152772098?s=46&t=l6gkF4fesBN2abvCWfOHpA
    Are there any markets up for number of Tory seats at next GE yet, or is it only on the spread betting sites? (I closed my spread betting account).
    I believe Flynn has said the SNP isn’t interested in being the official opposition; I’m not sure whether this counts as an official statement but I’d approve of such a rejection of what would be a ridiculous charade. Would a parliament where Labour had 509 MPs be any more sustainable long term than one where they had a shaky minority government? Insofar as Labour would have a more than a don’t-frighten-the-voters manifesto at that point, I have a vision of a cartoon character swinging huge windmill punches at an opponent that isn’t there.
    There's also the point that the SNP can't very well be the OO on the rUK aspect of topics that are devolved and don't involve Barnett consequentials. Though the current set up vis a vis NI doesn't seem to bother Labour or the Tories.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    Jonathan said:

    Possible solutions

    1. America (and Canada) is engaged in an enormous years long campaign to confuse the Chinese with psyops

    2 the Chinese actually have some bizarre balloon technology that genuinely bewilders experienced NATO pilots

    3 everyone in America has gone mad

    4. Everyone in America now has an iq of 5

    5. Aliens

    6 The reports of what pilots saw are bollocks.

    But why and how are they bollocks?

    They come direct from CNN and MSNBC


    https://twitter.com/thegregbrown/status/1624584248702238722?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Possible solutions

    1. America (and Canada) is engaged in an enormous years long campaign to confuse the Chinese with psyops

    2 the Chinese actually have some bizarre balloon technology that genuinely bewilders experienced NATO pilots

    3 everyone in America has gone mad

    4. Everyone in America now has an iq of 5

    5. Aliens

    6 The reports of what pilots saw are bollocks.
    But why and how are they bollocks?

    They come direct from CNN and MSNBC


    https://twitter.com/thegregbrown/status/1624584248702238722?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    Bless.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045
    The stories coming out of Turkey are heartbreaking. But to move onto politics for a bit: the Turkish government gave amnesties to building contractors who broke building regulations. Now, after an earthquake destroyed many supposedly-earthquake proof (*) buildings, they're arresting them.

    There are obvious questions that might prove problematic for Erdogan and the AKP.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-64615349

    Presidential and parliamentary elections are due in June. The polls for the presidential election are quite close between Erdogan and Askener :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_Turkish_presidential_election

    The parliamentary polls are slightly less close, althoigh potentially closing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_Turkish_parliamentary_election

    (*) It's actually really difficult to guarantee a building or structure is earthquake proof from very powerful quakes, which is why you see collapse in places like the US and Japan.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,152
    One for the Southampton fans on here…

    https://youtu.be/iSSpPkMlb98
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,452

    Leon said:

    With every day that passes we inch closer to the Leon Singularity

    😶

    “Other pilots saying that when they looked at the object they could identify no identifiable propulsion system and they did not know how it was actually staying in the air cruising at that altitude“

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    What is being shot down in North America?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/new-unidentified-object-shot-down-over-canada-says-trudeau

    A big bag full of helium.
    The American version of this (spy balloons) in the 50s sparked various UFO sightings, incidentally.
  • Options
    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,688
    kle4 said:

    Mango said:

    DavidL said:

    Where do all the parties get these people? Natalie McGarry, Jared O'Mara and now this. Plus, of course, the truly incredible George Santos in the States. Politics these days attracts narcissists, liars and fraudsters whilst largely repelling reasonably competent people who actually want to do some good. Its a danger to democracy.

    Yet another flaw of FPTP.

    If you have a preferred party, you get one candidate imposed.

    Under STV all these terrible candidates are also running against a couple of better candidates from the same party and you the voter get to choose.
    Hmm, I like PR systems for being, well, more proportionate, but I'm not sure how much people really have a chance to figure out which party selected hack is better or worse based on an election campaign. Real duffers sneak through all the time.
    If you have the Single Transferable Vote system in multi-member constituencies, at the end of the day it is the electors who decide which candidates are elected. Not the party machines. The supposition is that they will be folllowing closely the performance of their elected candidates from the previous election, and will decide on that basis whether or not they want to re-elect them.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Possible solutions

    1. America (and Canada) is engaged in an enormous years long campaign to confuse the Chinese with psyops

    2 the Chinese actually have some bizarre balloon technology that genuinely bewilders experienced NATO pilots

    3 everyone in America has gone mad

    4. Everyone in America now has an iq of 5

    5. Aliens

    6 The reports of what pilots saw are bollocks.
    But why and how are they bollocks?

    They come direct from CNN and MSNBC


    https://twitter.com/thegregbrown/status/1624584248702238722?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w
    Bless.

    I take it from your patronising tone you believe the answer to this “damn puzzling” mystery is blindingly obvious

    So what is it?
  • Options
    stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,779
    DougSeal said:

    stjohn said:

    Completely off topic but I need to say this somewhere. On my iPad I get a Google newsfeed which seems to be tailored to some of my interests. Horse racing, the economy, politics etc. But I also frequently gets links to articles about the BBC newsreader Naga Munchetty from The Daily Express and they are always negative. She’s either pulling a face or moving away from a co-presenter or something like that. Can anyone offer a reason behind this? Seems like a deliberate campaign to create ill feeling towards her.

    I think they are pushed because they get engagement. I get those as well together with similar (although less frequent) regarding Holly Willoughby and Philip Schofield. They’re perfect clickbait fodder for whatever reason. Someone or something analysed engagement and found she drive it. Add a bit of anger and Bob’s your uncle
    Thanks Doug Seal. Yes, I get them too. And the weather woman. I guess if I clicked on the Naga links it would trigger a load of negative Meghan stories coming my way. What a horrible industry/algorithm.
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    Possible solutions

    1. America (and Canada) is engaged in an enormous years long campaign to confuse the Chinese with psyops

    2 the Chinese actually have some bizarre balloon technology that genuinely bewilders experienced NATO pilots

    3 everyone in America has gone mad

    4. Everyone in America now has an iq of 5

    5. Aliens

    6 The reports of what pilots saw are bollocks.

    A very good friend of mine, recently deceased, told me his first job on leaving University was with the MoD. One of his briefs was to visit and interview people who claimed to have seen UFOs. For some unaccountable reason this often involved a long train journey down to Cornwall to speak to a lorry driver.

    I've always filed UFOs in the same folder as ghosts and the afterlife. Believe it when you see it.

    Will be very happy to report back to you all one day when I do.
  • Options
    franklynfranklyn Posts: 297
    If the LDs were smart in Somerton and Frome, they might negotiate with the Greens to get them to stand aside, offering some reciprocation elsewhere in the next GE.
  • Options
    Grooming gangs haven’t stopped - just coverage of them:

    But we also need to ask about the role of the media, and the arts world, and the cultural powers who decide whether something is worth caring about. It’s significant that this has been left to GB News, a small and still fringe television channel, to tell the story. It should be on BBC1; this should be regularly discussed on the Today programme. My local arts cinema should be telling me about a new film portraying the scandal.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/where-is-the-moral-outrage-about-britains-grooming-gang-scandal/
  • Options
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    For the forged document to obtain a loan, a client of mine found himself sentenced to the Scrubs for 26 months.

    This is like the dying years of the Major Government, but on steroids. Although in 1997 the Conservatives didn't have Brexit bonuses, a war with Russia, a Johnson redux and 30p Lee to save the day.

    Major had much more authority and pondus than Sunak. He was pro-Europe, pro-trade and pro-stability. He also had a Cabinet behind him that was not packed full of incompetents, thugs and crypto-fascists.

    Sunak is a political pygmy compared to Major, who had the thumping mandate of having won a general election with a record number of votes.

    Ok, so Starmer is also a pygmy compared to Blair, but Labour didn’t win the 1997 election, the Tories lost it. On current form, Sunak’s government is going to lose far more spectacularly that Major’s did.

    Major managed to retain 165 Tory seats. That would be an astonishing achievement if Sunak manages to turn this around and get even within the ballpark of that mighty figure.

    Latest MRP:

    Our new large MRP poll with @FindoutnowUK for @Telegraph shows #Labour 25% ahead and the Conservatives set to get fewer seats than the SNP. Details at:

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_mrppoll_20230209.html



    https://twitter.com/electcalculus/status/1623639165152772098?s=46&t=l6gkF4fesBN2abvCWfOHpA
    Are there any markets up for number of Tory seats at next GE yet, or is it only on the spread betting sites? (I closed my spread betting account).
    I believe Flynn has said the SNP isn’t interested in being the official opposition; I’m not sure whether this counts as an official statement but I’d approve of such a rejection of what would be a ridiculous charade. Would a parliament where Labour had 509 MPs be any more sustainable long term than one where they had a shaky minority government? Insofar as Labour would have a more than a don’t-frighten-the-voters manifesto at that point, I have a vision of a cartoon character swinging huge windmill punches at an opponent that isn’t there.
    There's also the point that the SNP can't very well be the OO on the rUK aspect of topics that are devolved and don't involve Barnett consequentials. Though the current set up vis a vis NI doesn't seem to bother Labour or the Tories.
    I’m sure in the unlikely event that SNP second party becomes a thing that it’ll be presented as ungrateful Nats turning down the deep honour of playing their part in the mother of parliaments (animal noises optional) so they can be safely ignored. How that’ll be different from them being ignored 2015-2023 is difficult to say.
  • Options
    TimS said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    The LDs. They’d win this, but then disappear again. The lack of a LD national recovery is befuddling. I guess they are just too far behind and Ed Davey is just a little too boring to attract attention.

    They’ve got a policy problem. They should be positioning themselves as the necessary counter balance to a Labour Party not yet fully recovered from the Corbyn years. “We will protect you from the anti aspiration tendencies of the labour left”.

    So they should be more relaxed about corporate profits, defend the independent schools sector, present a fiscal stance of spending (and tax) discipline and noisily call for increased defence spending and military aid for Ukraine. Triangulate the Tories.

    If they did this, the Tory shire disgruntleds might be motivated to vote for them rather than just stay at home. But I see no evidence they’re prepared to do this at a national level, mostly their policy is just naked opportunism or glib.
    I don’t think there’s much they could say that would change LD fortunes now. People are not interested in a none of the above option, they are ready to give Labour a chance. That’s FPTP.

    I think the best tactic for the party is to focus very locally, and use the council elections, parliamentary by-elections and the next GE as the way to get back some ground in local government (where there is already good LD representation) and Westminster.

    I see the party’s press comments, questions in parliament and TV interviews all the time because I follow their various accounts on Twitter. They are pretty active, but the press isn’t interested because they’re not an important part of todays narrative. I don’t think that matters currently.

    Of course if you live in seats like Somerton and want to give Labour a go, you should vote LibDem.

    Labour are not going to win seats like that. Removing the Tory is the way to ensure a Labour government, but voting actual Labour will likely retain the Tory and thus risk getting the Labour government people want.

    I have fallen out with Labour absolutists like Tom Blenkinsop making this point. But I'm right.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,664
    edited February 2023
    .
    Leon said:
    Perhaps because there’s an institutional bias in the military response to encountering stuff they haven’t anticipated or planned for.
    Note that as far as the balloons are concerned, they’ve only just realised that China has been doing this for years, undetected. That should give you a hint of the holes in US sensor capabilities.

    This is an article from a while back which explores that military mindset.
    (Which you seem to share.)

    Adversary Drones Are Spying On The U.S. And The Pentagon Acts Like They’re UFOs
    The U.S. military seems aloof to the fact that it’s being toyed with by a terrestrial adversary and key capabilities may be compromised as a result.
    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40054/adversary-drones-are-spying-on-the-u-s-and-the-pentagon-acts-like-theyre-ufos
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Possible solutions

    1. America (and Canada) is engaged in an enormous years long campaign to confuse the Chinese with psyops

    2 the Chinese actually have some bizarre balloon technology that genuinely bewilders experienced NATO pilots

    3 everyone in America has gone mad

    4. Everyone in America now has an iq of 5

    5. Aliens

    6 The reports of what pilots saw are bollocks.
    But why and how are they bollocks?

    They come direct from CNN and MSNBC


    https://twitter.com/thegregbrown/status/1624584248702238722?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1624516331465764864?s=46&t=y5cVncRhs9tviY7xvk8Q3w
    Bless.

    Wow, bastions of journalistic integrity and professionalism, CNN and MSNBC!
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited February 2023
    This balloon business is beginning to be reminiscent of America in the 1950's. A lot of cold war paranoia, and thus a large number of sightings, including both incorrect and others still yet unexplained to this day, but over-dismissed and over-corrected against that backdrop, altogether making up a generally confused and uncertain picture.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    DougSeal said:

    Must be gutting to travel halfway across the galaxy or more, using technologies we can but dream of, only to be shot down by a species still using dead dinosaurs as fuel for propulsion.

    UNLESS THEY ARE JUST DOIING IT FOR THE BANTZ

    “Hey. You know those entertaining monkeys with nukes on that crazy planet, let’s drop some stupid balloons that can be easily shot down and fuck with their heads even more”

    “Lol. Also make them elect Liz Truss but make her wear a BDSM necklace all the time”

  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,731
    Rugby: BF +19.5 handicap has Italy at 2.02 which looks a bit big to me. (Or lay England 1.98.)
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,803

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    For the forged document to obtain a loan, a client of mine found himself sentenced to the Scrubs for 26 months.

    This is like the dying years of the Major Government, but on steroids. Although in 1997 the Conservatives didn't have Brexit bonuses, a war with Russia, a Johnson redux and 30p Lee to save the day.

    Major had much more authority and pondus than Sunak. He was pro-Europe, pro-trade and pro-stability. He also had a Cabinet behind him that was not packed full of incompetents, thugs and crypto-fascists.

    Sunak is a political pygmy compared to Major, who had the thumping mandate of having won a general election with a record number of votes.

    Ok, so Starmer is also a pygmy compared to Blair, but Labour didn’t win the 1997 election, the Tories lost it. On current form, Sunak’s government is going to lose far more spectacularly that Major’s did.

    Major managed to retain 165 Tory seats. That would be an astonishing achievement if Sunak manages to turn this around and get even within the ballpark of that mighty figure.

    Latest MRP:

    Our new large MRP poll with @FindoutnowUK for @Telegraph shows #Labour 25% ahead and the Conservatives set to get fewer seats than the SNP. Details at:

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_mrppoll_20230209.html



    https://twitter.com/electcalculus/status/1623639165152772098?s=46&t=l6gkF4fesBN2abvCWfOHpA
    Are there any markets up for number of Tory seats at next GE yet, or is it only on the spread betting sites? (I closed my spread betting account).
    I believe Flynn has said the SNP isn’t interested in being the official opposition; I’m not sure whether this counts as an official statement but I’d approve of such a rejection of what would be a ridiculous charade. Would a parliament where Labour had 509 MPs be any more sustainable long term than one where they had a shaky minority government? Insofar as Labour would have a more than a don’t-frighten-the-voters manifesto at that point, I have a vision of a cartoon character swinging huge windmill punches at an opponent that isn’t there.
    There's also the point that the SNP can't very well be the OO on the rUK aspect of topics that are devolved and don't involve Barnett consequentials. Though the current set up vis a vis NI doesn't seem to bother Labour or the Tories.
    I’m sure in the unlikely event that SNP second party becomes a thing that it’ll be presented as ungrateful Nats turning down the deep honour of playing their part in the mother of parliaments (animal noises optional) so they can be safely ignored. How that’ll be different from them being ignored 2015-2023 is difficult to say.
    Or alternatively portrayed as poking their noses where they shouldn't (see the deep hurt about a bit of Sunday shopping regularly raked up here on PB). Can't win.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,452
    kle4 said:

    Mango said:

    kle4 said:

    Mango said:

    DavidL said:

    Where do all the parties get these people? Natalie McGarry, Jared O'Mara and now this. Plus, of course, the truly incredible George Santos in the States. Politics these days attracts narcissists, liars and fraudsters whilst largely repelling reasonably competent people who actually want to do some good. Its a danger to democracy.

    Yet another flaw of FPTP.

    If you have a preferred party, you get one candidate imposed.

    Under STV all these terrible candidates are also running against a couple of better candidates from the same party and you the voter get to choose.
    Hmm, I like PR systems for being, well, more proportionate, but I'm not sure how much people really have a chance to figure out which party selected hack is better or worse based on an election campaign. Real duffers sneak through all the time.
    If your argument is that we should not do things that are better because they're not perfect, then you've lost me.
    No, I still want PR as being better, I just don't think it will solve that particular problem as I think the issue is about who gets chosen by the party, not how the public selects from a pool of candidates. What if the whole lot are duffers?

    Like when people think a codified constitution will magically solve various political problems, or that mere memebrship of some organisation or treaty guarantees rights, when words on paper do no such thing and it takes action.
    Looking at politicians abroad, PR does not seem to prevent crooks, loons, the terminally incompetent or fascists.

    A modest proposal - financial and personal vetting for all candidates. As a start.

    Come to think of it - security risk? It’s not like foreign intelligence services haven’t tried to compromise MPs before

    Positive vetting reports on all candidates by the security services? Problem is, that then gives the whips more power….

    Hmmmm….
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,653
    It is testament to just how far Russia has fallen from the superpower firmament that nobody, not a single commentator I’ve seen, has even remotely suggested these UFOs might be Russian. That despite them being engaged in a hot war in Europe and having land only a short hop from Alaska.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:
    Perhaps because there’s an institutional bias in the military response to encountering stuff they haven’t anticipated or planned for.
    Note that as far as the balloons are concerned, they’ve only just realised that China has been doing this for years, undetected. That should give you a hint of the holes in US sensor capabilities.

    This is an article from a while back which explores that military mindset.
    (Which you seem to share.)

    Adversary Drones Are Spying On The U.S. And The Pentagon Acts Like They’re UFOs
    The U.S. military seems aloof to the fact that it’s being toyed with by a terrestrial adversary and key capabilities may be compromised as a result.
    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40054/adversary-drones-are-spying-on-the-u-s-and-the-pentagon-acts-like-theyre-ufos
    I’ve read all that. Ages ago

    Ironically the guy who is the source of that theory ALSO thinks we might be being visited by aliens - at the same time.
  • Options

    The stories coming out of Turkey are heartbreaking. But to move onto politics for a bit: the Turkish government gave amnesties to building contractors who broke building regulations. Now, after an earthquake destroyed many supposedly-earthquake proof (*) buildings, they're arresting them.

    There are obvious questions that might prove problematic for Erdogan and the AKP.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-64615349

    Presidential and parliamentary elections are due in June. The polls for the presidential election are quite close between Erdogan and Askener :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_Turkish_presidential_election

    The parliamentary polls are slightly less close, althoigh potentially closing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_Turkish_parliamentary_election

    (*) It's actually really difficult to guarantee a building or structure is earthquake proof from very powerful quakes, which is why you see collapse in places like the US and Japan.

    At least people are being arrested. Who got arrested for Grenfell?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,229
    ...
    DougSeal said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Most of those activities are de rigeur in Frome....

    You're sounding increasingly desperate in your justifications of the Conservative Party

    Mark's an honest Tory.
    That he may be but my point is about sounding increasingly desperate in justifying them. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. xx

    MM aside, there really is nothing left by which to justify this Conservative Government.

    I sense that quite a few punters, blinded by recency bias, are approaching this all wrong. It's time to believe the polls. It's not about 'might a NOM be likely?' or about 'precedence' or about Sunak 'staging a recovery.'

    They are going to be on the receiving end of the full wrath and vengeance of the electorate.

    The real question is just how low the tories will sink. I've said 100-150 but it might be fewer.
    You may be right and I'm not altogether comfortable with it.

    In my (now considerablle) experience, Governments operate best when there is a decent Opposition. I can't see the SNP providing that.

    Personally I'd like to see the iniquitous FPTP system abolished and some form of voting system established that is more suited to a modern democracy. There is zilch chance of that if Labour has a 400 seat majority.
    I just don't see that.

    I know that HY is clutching at straws and only uses his best poll and ignores ALL the rest to reach his conclusion, but even though he isn't showing his working out I suspect he is right.

    The Conservatives are smart, hungry to win, and are busy rolling the pitch for a close contest. Wild populism might not turn enough heads during times of economic turmoil, but if things start look brighter they may gain some traction. Add to that, Labour's poor vote economy, piling on votes in the wrong places. Then the Conservatives, if all goes to plan could preside over one enormous voter disenfranchisement scandal, (sorry, we "misunderestimated" how many young voters would be turned away, but no matter) an issue the Labour Party and LDs are yet to understand.

    I see no reason why 1992 can't be repeated.
    Sorry - you lost me at “…smart and hungry to win…” They’re neither. They are not particularly successful at anything at the moment and seem exhausted. And I don’t think that Labour will have to rely on the younger vote that never materialised anyway.
    The Conservative Party may be hopeless in Government but they are a fine-tuned election winning machine. Winning elections and keeping their clients content is their raison d'etre. And their nitrous oxide boost to see them over the line? Boris Johnson, voter suppression and Lee Anderson.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    @Leon confirmation bias is a bitch. My hunch is that you would not be quoting those sources on whole topics. No doubt I’m tempting fate, but I also guess that of US National Security was seriously threatened, authoritative and accurate accounts might be somewhat restricted.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321

    This balloon business is beginning to be reminiscent of America in the 1950's. A lot of cold war paranoia, and thus a large number of sightings, including both incorrect and others still yet unexplained to this day, but over-dismissed and over-corrected against that backdrop, creating a generally confused atmosphere.

    Yes, there are notable similarities

    And other echoes too: back then we had just mastered a profound technology. Nuclear power

    Now we are on the verge of another step change. AGI

    If aliens exist these would easily interest them. If they don’t these tech evolutions still create a mental OMG attitude in humanity - making us jump at noises off?
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    Jonathan said:

    @Leon confirmation bias is a bitch. My hunch is that you would not be quoting those sources on whole topics. No doubt I’m tempting fate, but I also guess that of US National Security was seriously threatened, authoritative and accurate accounts might be somewhat restricted.

    So you don’t have an answer. As expected. You’re just confused. Next
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,664
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:
    Perhaps because there’s an institutional bias in the military response to encountering stuff they haven’t anticipated or planned for.
    Note that as far as the balloons are concerned, they’ve only just realised that China has been doing this for years, undetected. That should give you a hint of the holes in US sensor capabilities.

    This is an article from a while back which explores that military mindset.
    (Which you seem to share.)

    Adversary Drones Are Spying On The U.S. And The Pentagon Acts Like They’re UFOs
    The U.S. military seems aloof to the fact that it’s being toyed with by a terrestrial adversary and key capabilities may be compromised as a result.
    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40054/adversary-drones-are-spying-on-the-u-s-and-the-pentagon-acts-like-theyre-ufos
    I’ve read all that. Ages ago

    Ironically the guy who is the source of that theory ALSO thinks we might be being visited by aliens - at the same time.
    Of course. But you seem to have ignored most of what it says.

    For example.
    ..In essence, during the early 1960s, the CIA launched radar reflectors on balloons off Cuba's coastline via a U.S. Navy submarine and employed an electronic warfare system called PALLADIUM that would trick the latest Soviet radar systems into showing their operators that enemy aircraft were rushing toward Cuban shores or doing all types of crazy maneuvers. This coaxed the Cuban air defense system and its radars to light up and spurred rapid communications between air defenders on the island…
    … In our investigative pieces on PALLADIUM, we also detailed how radar reflector balloons can be made in many configurations and we even discovered a patent dating back to well before PALLADIUM for a radar reflector balloon that is an exact visual match for the initially totally bizarre-sounding "cube inside a sphere" objects that Navy pilots had reported seeing off the east coast. We also discovered that initial reports that pilots visually saw these craft moving erratically were incorrect. In fact, when physically encountered, they were floating in the air and acting exactly as balloons would. ..

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    IanB2 said:

    @StuartDickson

    Hyufd The Hopeful keeps telling us of the poll evidence that indicates NOM as the likely GE outcome, but even the crude workings of Electoral Calculus are suggesting little more than 100 Tory MPs surviving the next GE. Nor do you have to a Labour or LD partisan to see why even this might be a serious overestimate.

    For a start, there is tactical voting. Then there's the distinct possibility of an LD uplift in the polls when they begin to receive more publicity, as they normally do during a GE. Davey is no superstar but he is no mug either, and nor is Starmer. They are not going to have to dazzle to look preferable to the incumbents.

    There is still a chance of a Tory recovery. Sunak is nothing if not sensible. If the Party plods on and avoids serious mistakes (like sacking him, for instance), if the economy improves a bit, if Labour begins to fragment and the Unions get too uppity, there is a chance the Tories get out of their current mess and escape with a decent rump of opposition MPs.

    There is however at least as much chance that the opposite happens, in which case we really could be talking about near extinction and the SNP as HM Official Opposition.

    There's a new AI beta out, ChatHYUFD; have you tried it yet?:

    "The energy and passion within our party is stronger than ever, and I truly believe that come election day, we will surprise everyone with a resounding victory. We have the policies and the people to bring real change to this country, and I won't give up on that just because of a few numbers on a page. I am, and always will be, a committed Conservative supporter, and I know that together, we will make history."
    I've started spotting columns in some of the online newspapers that, due to the cliche count, general tone, and ultimately complete vapid pointlessness, make me suspect they were written by ChatGPT. These columns existed long before ChatGPT, but I can't see why newspapers will continue to pay people to write them when they can get the computer algorithm to do it instead.
    We are going to reach the stage where nobody is going to believe that text is written by an actual human being unless it is published with a full name and address and the identity of the person has been legally verified by unimpeachable, impartial authorities. Anonymous comment will become impossible, as nobody will take anonymous accounts seriously.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,811
    DougSeal said:

    Must be gutting to travel halfway across the galaxy or more, using technologies we can but dream of, only to be shot down by a species still using dead dinosaurs as fuel for propulsion.

    Reminds of Poul Anderson's The High Crusade.
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    It has been painful to watch the unraveling of Sturgeon. She has dominated our politics for decades. She is viewed as one of the most accomplished politicians of her generation. A clear and empathetic orator. A rabid campaigner. A leader with a common touch who has been able to feel the pulse of the country and act.

    But when her rhetoric of “trans women are women” is confronted with the reality of a convicted rapist who, in the time it took to get him to court for trial, had self-identified as a woman, then her ability to communicate on what she has championed as a flagship policy, and another Scottish first, has crumpled.

    She has no argument because there is none. If the first minister believes all trans women are women, then why would a trans woman like Isla Bryson not be placed in a women’s prison? If not all trans women are women, then how do we tell the good from the bad? And if not all trans women are women, then weren’t women’s concerns about male-bodied people getting access to their single-sex spaces valid?


    https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,nicola-sturgeon-is-starting-to-look-like-the-snps-independence-albatross
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    Mr. Dickson, the other day I saw some writing gigs would specifically said they didn't want AI-generated content.
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    DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    FPT

    @ydoethur and others...

    Some quick things on class, illuminative refs:

    1. 19 Sep 2021 piece in the Heil: "Knife gangs are breaking into hospital wards to finish off their stab victims". Look at how the medic sneers about how she doubts that the injured prole "yearned" to study for an anatomy degree. An even more instructive bit is in the next paragraph. Look at how she drools with cruel delight in having to go by what the prole says, even if she believes (almost certainly correctly) that it isn't true, and notes that because she is obliged to go by it she leaves the guy waiting for six hours.

    Oh dear. Did you have to wait? Well I had to go by what you told me.

    There's a heck of a lot about both class and British specificity there.

    2. Read this tweet by the headteacher of a state secondary school. Key words: "It’s pretty clear, if you don’t want your child to have the vaccine, fine. The rest has got nothing to do with you".

    I'm not trying to start a discussion about the rights and wrongs of the 2021-22 mass vaccination campaign. The point is the way this guy thinks and talks. Here's how: it's not for proles to have views on social questions, and if they do have their own views then it's definitely not for them to encourage each other to do X or Y unless they hold permission from those who stand above them in rank. Otherwise they're a disgrace with ideas way above their station.

    The guy is practically a cardboard-cutout Stupidity Merchant. In the right job for it, too.

    Anybody got any similar stories from somewhere outside of Britain and heavily British-influenced cultures? Hit me with the best you've got.

    3. Alan Moore, the writer. I hope I'm not the only one here who has read his novel "Jerusalem". IMO it easily equals and probably outdoes Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment" in how it describes the life of a mind.

    Moore's book says a lot about class. There is a place where he touches on the attitude of medics towards the proles in Northampton, but it is as if he flinches back in horror and even he doesn't sufficiently want to go there.

    (Unfortunately I couldn't find my notes - otherwise I'd post the page number.)

    In other circumstances Moore would easily be considered Nobel Prizeable for Literature...but he isn't, because he's a prole. Or more particularly, he's not just a prole but a prole with completely the wrong attitude - a prole who suffers from drapetomania.

    Instead the prize went to the complete and utter charlatan Bob Dylan.

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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited February 2023
    Leon said:

    This balloon business is beginning to be reminiscent of America in the 1950's. A lot of cold war paranoia, and thus a large number of sightings, including both incorrect and others still yet unexplained to this day, but over-dismissed and over-corrected against that backdrop, creating a generally confused atmosphere.

    Yes, there are notable similarities

    And other echoes too: back then we had just mastered a profound technology. Nuclear power

    Now we are on the verge of another step change. AGI

    If aliens exist these would easily interest them. If they don’t these tech evolutions still create a mental OMG attitude in humanity - making us jump at noises off?
    Your idea that we're at a crucial technological juncture, like that of the 1950's, is interesting and quite original.

    My favourite 1950's UFO incident was the one in Washington D.C itself. This was at the absolute height of cold war paranoia, ofcourse, and hollywood science fiction, and yet there are so many aspects to this incident still unexplained. There were also a very disproportionate number of other sightings around this time that , just like it, have never been satisfactorily explained at all , either .

    At times this combination has genuinely made me wonder whether there is in fact some of kind of, as-yet not-understood , collective parapsychological / spiritual phenomenon, where large numbers of people believing something will happen , can actually make it happen.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_Washington,_D.C.,_UFO_incident
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    Mr. Oracle, sufficient belief altering reality is how the orks operate in Warhammer 40K.

    I think there's a human commander who has become invincible because the orks believe he can't be killed.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045

    This balloon business is beginning to be reminiscent of America in the 1950's. A lot of cold war paranoia, and thus a large number of sightings, including both incorrect and others still yet unexplained to this day, but over-dismissed and over-corrected against that backdrop, altogether making up a generally confused and uncertain picture.

    It should be remembered that two of the major crises at the time: the bomber gap (1955) and missile gap (1958-60) were both very political creations, and also later proved to be absolute rubbish.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,013
    DavidL said:

    Where do all the parties get these people? Natalie McGarry, Jared O'Mara and now this. Plus, of course, the truly incredible George Santos in the States. Politics these days attracts narcissists, liars and fraudsters whilst largely repelling reasonably competent people who actually want to do some good. Its a danger to democracy.

    Far bigger ones at the top of the Tories David, they just have more cover, the amount of Russian money and all the PPE scandals that are ignored is incredible.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,957

    IanB2 said:

    @StuartDickson

    Hyufd The Hopeful keeps telling us of the poll evidence that indicates NOM as the likely GE outcome, but even the crude workings of Electoral Calculus are suggesting little more than 100 Tory MPs surviving the next GE. Nor do you have to a Labour or LD partisan to see why even this might be a serious overestimate.

    For a start, there is tactical voting. Then there's the distinct possibility of an LD uplift in the polls when they begin to receive more publicity, as they normally do during a GE. Davey is no superstar but he is no mug either, and nor is Starmer. They are not going to have to dazzle to look preferable to the incumbents.

    There is still a chance of a Tory recovery. Sunak is nothing if not sensible. If the Party plods on and avoids serious mistakes (like sacking him, for instance), if the economy improves a bit, if Labour begins to fragment and the Unions get too uppity, there is a chance the Tories get out of their current mess and escape with a decent rump of opposition MPs.

    There is however at least as much chance that the opposite happens, in which case we really could be talking about near extinction and the SNP as HM Official Opposition.

    There's a new AI beta out, ChatHYUFD; have you tried it yet?:

    "The energy and passion within our party is stronger than ever, and I truly believe that come election day, we will surprise everyone with a resounding victory. We have the policies and the people to bring real change to this country, and I won't give up on that just because of a few numbers on a page. I am, and always will be, a committed Conservative supporter, and I know that together, we will make history."
    I've started spotting columns in some of the online newspapers that, due to the cliche count, general tone, and ultimately complete vapid pointlessness, make me suspect they were written by ChatGPT. These columns existed long before ChatGPT, but I can't see why newspapers will continue to pay people to write them when they can get the computer algorithm to do it instead.
    We are going to reach the stage where nobody is going to believe that text is written by an actual human being unless it is published with a full name and address and the identity of the person has been legally verified by unimpeachable, impartial authorities. Anonymous comment will become impossible, as nobody will take anonymous accounts seriously.
    Run any questionable text through this:

    https://hivemoderation.com/ai-generated-content-detection

    I've had a 100% success rate so far in determining AI written and human written text.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't work if the human takes a ChatGPT written article and changes just enough words and tone to make it more human sounding, but the underlying structure and style still has a "written by ChatGPT" vibe.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,013

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Most of those activities are de rigeur in Frome....

    You're sounding increasingly desperate in your justifications of the Conservative Party

    Mark's an honest Tory.
    That he may be but my point is about sounding increasingly desperate in justifying them. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. xx

    MM aside, there really is nothing left by which to justify this Conservative Government.

    I sense that quite a few punters, blinded by recency bias, are approaching this all wrong. It's time to believe the polls. It's not about 'might a NOM be likely?' or about 'precedence' or about Sunak 'staging a recovery.'

    They are going to be on the receiving end of the full wrath and vengeance of the electorate.

    The real question is just how low the tories will sink. I've said 100-150 but it might be fewer.
    You may be right and I'm not altogether comfortable with it.

    In my (now considerablle) experience, Governments operate best when there is a decent Opposition. I can't see the SNP providing that.

    Personally I'd like to see the iniquitous FPTP system abolished and some form of voting system established that is more suited to a modern democracy. There is zilch chance of that if Labour has a 400 seat majority.
    Peter , shit as they are they would be streets ahead of the Tories
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,664
    .
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    they could identify no identifiable propulsion system

    Wow.

    Kinda like a balloon even...
    To be fair, it's pretty hard to get a good look at something when you're travelling at 500mph relative to it - and balloon payloads can be a long way below the ballon itself.

    And if there's a mismatch between what your eyes and the aircraft sensors are telling you...
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,013
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    For the forged document to obtain a loan, a client of mine found himself sentenced to the Scrubs for 26 months.

    This is like the dying years of the Major Government, but on steroids. Although in 1997 the Conservatives didn't have Brexit bonuses, a war with Russia, a Johnson redux and 30p Lee to save the day.

    Major had much more authority and pondus than Sunak. He was pro-Europe, pro-trade and pro-stability. He also had a Cabinet behind him that was not packed full of incompetents, thugs and crypto-fascists.

    Sunak is a political pygmy compared to Major, who had the thumping mandate of having won a general election with a record number of votes.

    Ok, so Starmer is also a pygmy compared to Blair, but Labour didn’t win the 1997 election, the Tories lost it. On current form, Sunak’s government is going to lose far more spectacularly that Major’s did.

    Major managed to retain 165 Tory seats. That would be an astonishing achievement if Sunak manages to turn this around and get even within the ballpark of that mighty figure.

    Latest MRP:

    Our new large MRP poll with @FindoutnowUK for @Telegraph shows #Labour 25% ahead and the Conservatives set to get fewer seats than the SNP. Details at:

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_mrppoll_20230209.html



    https://twitter.com/electcalculus/status/1623639165152772098?s=46&t=l6gkF4fesBN2abvCWfOHpA
    Are there any markets up for number of Tory seats at next GE yet, or is it only on the spread betting sites? (I closed my spread betting account).
    I believe Flynn has said the SNP isn’t interested in being the official opposition; I’m not sure whether this counts as an official statement but I’d approve of such a rejection of what would be a ridiculous charade. Would a parliament where Labour had 509 MPs be any more sustainable long term than one where they had a shaky minority government? Insofar as Labour would have a more than a don’t-frighten-the-voters manifesto at that point, I have a vision of a cartoon character swinging huge windmill punches at an opponent that isn’t there.
    There's also the point that the SNP can't very well be the OO on the rUK aspect of topics that are devolved and don't involve Barnett consequentials. Though the current set up vis a vis NI doesn't seem to bother Labour or the Tories.
    Thought we were all equal in the UK Carnyx and Scotland not a colony, how then can they not be the official opposition?
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,152

    ...

    DougSeal said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Most of those activities are de rigeur in Frome....

    You're sounding increasingly desperate in your justifications of the Conservative Party

    Mark's an honest Tory.
    That he may be but my point is about sounding increasingly desperate in justifying them. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. xx

    MM aside, there really is nothing left by which to justify this Conservative Government.

    I sense that quite a few punters, blinded by recency bias, are approaching this all wrong. It's time to believe the polls. It's not about 'might a NOM be likely?' or about 'precedence' or about Sunak 'staging a recovery.'

    They are going to be on the receiving end of the full wrath and vengeance of the electorate.

    The real question is just how low the tories will sink. I've said 100-150 but it might be fewer.
    You may be right and I'm not altogether comfortable with it.

    In my (now considerablle) experience, Governments operate best when there is a decent Opposition. I can't see the SNP providing that.

    Personally I'd like to see the iniquitous FPTP system abolished and some form of voting system established that is more suited to a modern democracy. There is zilch chance of that if Labour has a 400 seat majority.
    I just don't see that.

    I know that HY is clutching at straws and only uses his best poll and ignores ALL the rest to reach his conclusion, but even though he isn't showing his working out I suspect he is right.

    The Conservatives are smart, hungry to win, and are busy rolling the pitch for a close contest. Wild populism might not turn enough heads during times of economic turmoil, but if things start look brighter they may gain some traction. Add to that, Labour's poor vote economy, piling on votes in the wrong places. Then the Conservatives, if all goes to plan could preside over one enormous voter disenfranchisement scandal, (sorry, we "misunderestimated" how many young voters would be turned away, but no matter) an issue the Labour Party and LDs are yet to understand.

    I see no reason why 1992 can't be repeated.
    Sorry - you lost me at “…smart and hungry to win…” They’re neither. They are not particularly successful at anything at the moment and seem exhausted. And I don’t think that Labour will have to rely on the younger vote that never materialised anyway.
    The Conservative Party may be hopeless in Government but they are a fine-tuned election winning machine. Winning elections and keeping their clients content is their raison d'etre. And their nitrous oxide boost to see them over the line? Boris Johnson, voter suppression and Lee Anderson.
    That’s bullshit. They are not an “election winning machine”. Between 1996, when Major lost his majority, and 2017 they held a workable majority for a mere two years. Two years in a generation. And then in 2019 you had the Corbyn factor, and even he came close to No 10 in 2017. There is no evidence that Johnson or Anderson will make a jot of difference beyond your contingent conjecture, nor voter ID.
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    DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    edited February 2023
    Recap:
    1. South Carolina balloon (shot down, Chinese),
    2. Colombia balloon (no word of what happened to that one),
    3. Alaska UFO (shot down),
    4. Yukon UFO (shot down).

    According to Canadian defence minister Anita Anand, the Yukon object was CYLINDRICAL.

    (Dig the Liz Truss-style necklace.)

    Five minutes of becoming an extreme expert online have brought me to the view that weather balloons are all roughly SPHERICAL, except when they're ascending, when some can be teardrop-shaped. AFAIAA none of them are cylindrical.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,215
    edited February 2023
    Silly to be pleased by something like this.

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1624720755144511491?s=61&t=0jx1-xXDZ9Fpytr94GHRNg

    But I am.

    As on so many things, I am right. We should not be paying Johnson's legal fees and it is outrageous that he expects it and that Sunak has signed off on it.

    I have been asked to consider being an independent councillor in my local area on the grounds that (a) the existing ones are neither use nor ornament; (b) I'm not obviously insane; and (c) I have opinions.

    Husband is encouraging me. But I am not at all sure about this. I have quite enough to do without this as well. So am still pondering.

    On a more serious note, what is notable about the place is that a lot of the institutions which were created a few decades back were done so by local people getting together, raising the money and building what was needed. Once they started being run by remote councillors & paid staff, the care for them went downhill. They need reviving but the elected representatives and their staff are the ones who are the obstruction or just neglectful. There is a lesson there tho' I am not quite sure what it is.

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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,009
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    they could identify no identifiable propulsion system

    Wow.

    Kinda like a balloon even...
    To be fair, it's pretty hard to get a good look at something when you're travelling at 500mph relative to it - and balloon payloads can be a long way below the ballon itself.

    There is very little haze or dust at high altitudes but... the sun is much brighter so there is a very large part of the field of vision that is dazzling and causes afterimages even with your visor down. Also you can have difficulty focusing on objects at high altitudes due to empty field myopia which throws off depth perception and visual acuity. In summary, visually acquiring and discriminating bogies at 50,000+ is not as easy as one would think particularly with a large delta-V as you observe.

    It would be relative easy to acquire and range IR targets in that regime but the F-22 never got IRST.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    On topic

    AI may not be able to predict the unpredictable twists and turns of UK politics, but it's got a better shot than a magician trying to guess the next roll of a political die
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,030

    It has been painful to watch the unraveling of Sturgeon. She has dominated our politics for decades. She is viewed as one of the most accomplished politicians of her generation. A clear and empathetic orator. A rabid campaigner. A leader with a common touch who has been able to feel the pulse of the country and act.

    But when her rhetoric of “trans women are women” is confronted with the reality of a convicted rapist who, in the time it took to get him to court for trial, had self-identified as a woman, then her ability to communicate on what she has championed as a flagship policy, and another Scottish first, has crumpled.

    She has no argument because there is none. If the first minister believes all trans women are women, then why would a trans woman like Isla Bryson not be placed in a women’s prison? If not all trans women are women, then how do we tell the good from the bad? And if not all trans women are women, then weren’t women’s concerns about male-bodied people getting access to their single-sex spaces valid?


    https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,nicola-sturgeon-is-starting-to-look-like-the-snps-independence-albatross

    Her government’s gender recognition reforms, opposed by three times as many Scots as support them, have dented whatever reputation for plain-speaking and candour Sturgeon enjoyed. The first minister’s inability to determine a double rapist’s sex has rendered her ridiculous.

    This might be shrugged off as a short-term, localised difficulty if it were not accompanied by other disagreeable developments. A partial list of these must include: the failure to build two new ferries for CalMac; the inability to meet road-building promises on the A9; escalating industrial action across the public sector; councils complaining about budget cuts foisted upon them by the Scottish government; a deposit return scheme for drinks containers no one believes will be ready by the time it is introduced in August; a potential ban on alcohol marketing that is, at best, a hammer-meets-nut proposition; a hate crime bill passed by the Scottish parliament that is still not fit for implementation; a catalogue of missed targets in the NHS; an admissions system that makes it all but impossible for most Scots to gain places at some of the country’s most prestigious universities; and, above all, a growing sense that the Scottish government lacks the ability to make the kind of transformational change it once promised. One could go on but this will suffice.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sturgeon-is-feeling-the-chill-wind-of-change-0b9725zxc
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    DJ41a said:

    FPT

    @ydoethur and others...

    Some quick things on class, illuminative refs:

    1. 19 Sep 2021 piece in the Heil: "Knife gangs are breaking into hospital wards to finish off their stab victims". Look at how the medic sneers about how she doubts that the injured prole "yearned" to study for an anatomy degree. An even more instructive bit is in the next paragraph. Look at how she drools with cruel delight in having to go by what the prole says, even if she believes (almost certainly correctly) that it isn't true, and notes that because she is obliged to go by it she leaves the guy waiting for six hours.

    Oh dear. Did you have to wait? Well I had to go by what you told me.

    There's a heck of a lot about both class and British specificity there.

    2. Read this tweet by the headteacher of a state secondary school. Key words: "It’s pretty clear, if you don’t want your child to have the vaccine, fine. The rest has got nothing to do with you".

    I'm not trying to start a discussion about the rights and wrongs of the 2021-22 mass vaccination campaign. The point is the way this guy thinks and talks. Here's how: it's not for proles to have views on social questions, and if they do have their own views then it's definitely not for them to encourage each other to do X or Y unless they hold permission from those who stand above them in rank. Otherwise they're a disgrace with ideas way above their station.

    The guy is practically a cardboard-cutout Stupidity Merchant. In the right job for it, too.

    Anybody got any similar stories from somewhere outside of Britain and heavily British-influenced cultures? Hit me with the best you've got.

    3. Alan Moore, the writer. I hope I'm not the only one here who has read his novel "Jerusalem". IMO it easily equals and probably outdoes Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment" in how it describes the life of a mind.

    Moore's book says a lot about class. There is a place where he touches on the attitude of medics towards the proles in Northampton, but it is as if he flinches back in horror and even he doesn't sufficiently want to go there.

    (Unfortunately I couldn't find my notes - otherwise I'd post the page number.)

    In other circumstances Moore would easily be considered Nobel Prizeable for Literature...but he isn't, because he's a prole. Or more particularly, he's not just a prole but a prole with completely the wrong attitude - a prole who suffers from drapetomania.

    Instead the prize went to the complete and utter charlatan Bob Dylan.

    1. is unmitigated gibberish. Start to finish. You assume that medics can't be proles, which is exactly the flipside of your complaint about the medic's belief that proles don't want to be medics. Which is nonsense anyway, it's the victim's status as revenge seeking victim not as prole which is the point. Which would work equally well if it were Lord Lucan being brought in after a knife fight in Annabel's. 2. Agree. 3. "Adult" comic books, F off and grow up.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    DJ41a said:

    Recap:
    1. South Carolina balloon (shot down, Chinese),
    2. Colombia balloon (no word of what happened to that one),
    3. Alaska UFO (shot down),
    4. Yukon UFO (shot down).

    According to Canadian defence minister Anita Anand, the Yukon object was CYLINDRICAL.

    (Dig the Liz Truss-style necklace.)

    Five minutes of becoming an extreme expert online have brought me to the view that weather balloons are all roughly SPHERICAL, except when they're ascending, when some can be teardrop-shaped. AFAIAA none of them are cylindrical.

    Apart from the slow speed that sounds quite like a tic tac
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    DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    edited February 2023
    DougSeal said:

    ...

    DougSeal said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Most of those activities are de rigeur in Frome....

    You're sounding increasingly desperate in your justifications of the Conservative Party

    Mark's an honest Tory.
    That he may be but my point is about sounding increasingly desperate in justifying them. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. xx

    MM aside, there really is nothing left by which to justify this Conservative Government.

    I sense that quite a few punters, blinded by recency bias, are approaching this all wrong. It's time to believe the polls. It's not about 'might a NOM be likely?' or about 'precedence' or about Sunak 'staging a recovery.'

    They are going to be on the receiving end of the full wrath and vengeance of the electorate.

    The real question is just how low the tories will sink. I've said 100-150 but it might be fewer.
    You may be right and I'm not altogether comfortable with it.

    In my (now considerablle) experience, Governments operate best when there is a decent Opposition. I can't see the SNP providing that.

    Personally I'd like to see the iniquitous FPTP system abolished and some form of voting system established that is more suited to a modern democracy. There is zilch chance of that if Labour has a 400 seat majority.
    I just don't see that.

    I know that HY is clutching at straws and only uses his best poll and ignores ALL the rest to reach his conclusion, but even though he isn't showing his working out I suspect he is right.

    The Conservatives are smart, hungry to win, and are busy rolling the pitch for a close contest. Wild populism might not turn enough heads during times of economic turmoil, but if things start look brighter they may gain some traction. Add to that, Labour's poor vote economy, piling on votes in the wrong places. Then the Conservatives, if all goes to plan could preside over one enormous voter disenfranchisement scandal, (sorry, we "misunderestimated" how many young voters would be turned away, but no matter) an issue the Labour Party and LDs are yet to understand.

    I see no reason why 1992 can't be repeated.
    Sorry - you lost me at “…smart and hungry to win…” They’re neither. They are not particularly successful at anything at the moment and seem exhausted. And I don’t think that Labour will have to rely on the younger vote that never materialised anyway.
    The Conservative Party may be hopeless in Government but they are a fine-tuned election winning machine. Winning elections and keeping their clients content is their raison d'etre. And their nitrous oxide boost to see them over the line? Boris Johnson, voter suppression and Lee Anderson.
    That’s bullshit. They are not an “election winning machine”. Between 1996, when Major lost his majority, and 2017 they held a workable majority for a mere two years. Two years in a generation. And then in 2019 you had the Corbyn factor, and even he came close to No 10 in 2017. There is no evidence that Johnson or Anderson will make a jot of difference beyond your contingent conjecture, nor voter ID.
    Odd way you use the word "evidence".

    The polls have the next GE wrong.

    Suggested poll blurb that might bring some more reliable "evidence". (Why? Because voting happens after campaigning.)

    "Many in Britain feel that high levels of immigration are an important political issue. The Conservatives are expected by some commentators to put this issue front and centre during the next general election. Labour, on the other hand, while they criticise the current Conservative government for its economic policies, which they feel have contributed to the cost of living crisis, are not expected to do the same. They are expected to concentrate more on the rights of transsexuals than on immigration. If there were a general election tomorrow, how would you vote: CON, LAB, LD, REF, GRN?"

    The million point Labour lead in the polls may well turn out to be built on sand.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited February 2023

    Mr. Oracle, sufficient belief altering reality is how the orks operate in Warhammer 40K.

    I think there's a human commander who has become invincible because the orks believe he can't be killed.

    Yes, it comes up in literature quite a lot too.

    What if a huge number of people believing something will appear, as so many Americans did in the early 1950's, and feeling strong emotion about this,about either the Russians, Space, or both, can actually make phenomena appear ?

    That would be a very long way from our current understanding, ofcourse, but then again we're prone as a species to hubris, not understanding things, and over-estimating that understanding again and again , if you look back over the centuries.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    Leon said:

    On topic

    AI may not be able to predict the unpredictable twists and turns of UK politics, but it's got a better shot than a magician trying to guess the next roll of a political die

    ChatGPT wrote this comment btw. Verbatim
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045
    It should be noted that google's Project Loon balloons were oddly-shaped at altitude (i.e. not like weather balloons). Although Loon got cancelled, there are loads of groups doing balloon-related research, including rockaloons (rockets launched from balloons)

    This will be a mixture of Chinese deliberate launches, and balloons left over from people/orgs doing research. In other words, a typical hysteria.

    https://www.wdbj7.com/2020/07/07/googles-project-loon-high-altitude-balloons-spotted-over-virginia-and-carolinas/
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    DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174

    Mr. Oracle, sufficient belief altering reality is how the orks operate in Warhammer 40K.

    It's how the real world works too.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,321
    To add to the ufological mix, the US DoD has supposedly just declassified this image. Apparently it is a screen shot from a 4 second vid of a UFO whizzing down a street in Iraq during the war

    It’s being called “the Mosul orb”



    His Majesty’s Debunker-General, Mick West, thinks it shows a drop of water on a lens

    🤷‍♂️
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,467
    ...
    Cyclefree said:

    Silly to be pleased by something like this.

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1624720755144511491?s=61&t=0jx1-xXDZ9Fpytr94GHRNg

    But I am.

    As on so many things, I am right. We should not be paying Johnson's legal fees and it is outrageous that he expects it and that Sunak has signed off on it.

    I have been asked to consider being an independent councillor in my local area on the grounds that (a) the existing ones are neither use nor ornament; (b) I'm not obviously insane; and (c) I have opinions.

    Husband is encouraging me. But I am not at all sure about this. I have quite enough to do without this as well. So am still pondering.

    On a more serious note, what is notable about the place is that a lot of the institutions which were created a few decades back were done so by local people getting together, raising the money and building what was needed. Once they started being run by remote councillors & paid staff, the care for them went downhill. They need reviving but the elected representatives and their staff are the ones who are the obstruction or just neglectful. There is a lesson there tho' I am not quite sure what it is.

    Go for it. You'd be good at it.
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    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,948
    More good news from up north :

    https://www.scotsman.com/health/one-third-of-scottish-gp-surgeries-could-close-in-coming-months-according-to-new-research-4023391

    One third of Scottish GP surgeries could close in coming months, according to new research.

    One third of Scottish GP surgeries are at risk of closing in the coming months, according to staff, as a top medic warned that “without a strong GP service, the NHS is going to topple”.

This discussion has been closed.