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LAB extends lead in new “Red Wall” polling – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,690
edited January 2023 in General
imageLAB extends lead in new “Red Wall” polling – politicalbetting.com

There’s a new poll out from R&W of forty ‘Red Wall’ seats. All but one of them went Tory at GE2019 with the only exception, Hartlepool, being gained in the 2020 by-election.

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,031
    edited January 2023
    Almost all these seats were virtually always Labour until 2019 when they loaned Boris, note Boris not the Tories, their votes to get Brexit done and beat Corbyn. Now Boris and Corbyn have gone and Brexit has been done, no surprise they are returning to Labour.

    However while the Tories are falling back in these working class seats under Sunak, Sunak is holding up better in the upper middle class Blue Wall.

    So perhaps TSE might feel safe to vote Tory again now after voting LD since Cameron, given the average Tory voter is much posher and less common under Rishi than they were under Boris in 2019?

    Even if Rishi loses the next general election he has at least made it safe for snobs to vote Tory again!!
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,336
    HYUFD said:

    Almost all these seats were virtually always Labour until 2019 when they loaned Boris, note Boris not the Tories, their votes to get Brexit done and beat Corbyn. Now Boris and Corbyn have gone and Brexit has been done, no surprise they are returning to Labour.

    However while the Tories are falling back in these working class seats under Sunak, Sunak is holding up better in the upper middle class Blue Wall.

    So perhaps TSE might feel safe to vote Tory again now after voting LD since Cameron, given the average Tory voter is much posher and less common under Rishi than they were under Boris in 2019?

    Even if Rishi loses the next general election he has at least made it safe for snobs to vote Tory again!!

    How on earth did you manage to read the thread, come up with a cogent and relatively lengthy response, and be first poster btl!?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,670
    Apologies for FPTing this, but it raises an interesting point of law.
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andrew Bridgen sues Matt Hancock for £100,000 over Covid vaccine row

    Hancock accused Bridgen of spouting ‘anti-Semitic, anti-vax conspiracy theories’ after he compared effects of the vaccines to the Holocaust


    According to the seven-page “letter before action”, Mr Bridgen wants Mr Hancock to “retract and delete the defamatory statement contained in the tweet complained of with immediate effect”.

    It adds that he should “apologise for the tweet complained of - both orally in the House of Commons - and in writing on Mr Hancock's personal Twitter account”.

    And he said Mr Hancock should “acknowledge full and final settlement of any prospective claim in the form of a payment of £100,000 - to be transferred into a legal fund on behalf of persons seeking collective redress for vaccine harms (under the UK Government's Vaccine Damages Payment Scheme)”.

    Mr Bridgen's legal action is being funded by the Reclaim Party and the ‘Bad Law Project’.

    Laurence Fox, the leader of Reclaim, said: “The Reclaim Party and the Bad Law Project is providing its full support to Mr Bridgen and we want a full apology from Mr Hancock.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/26/matt-hancock-sued-andrew-bridgen-covid-vaccine-holocaust-row/

    I'm on Team Hancock.

    Andrew Bridgen should be done for high treason, hanged, drawn and quartered.

    For making us all endorse Matt Fucking Hancock.
    This Bridgen ?

    What value would you place on his reputation in the unlikely event he were to succeed in his lawsuit ?
    ...In April 2022, High Court Judge Brian Rawlings ruled against Bridgen, stating that he "lied under oath and behaved in an abusive, arrogant and aggressive manner", was "an unreliable and combative witness who tried to conceal his own misconduct", and "gave evasive and argumentative answers and tangential speeches that avoided answering the questions". ..

    The funniest outcome in some ways would be for Hancock to lose but the judge to set damages at five pounds on the grounds Bridgen has no reputation worth more than that.

    That would exasperate Hancock and bankrupt Bridgen.
    I think he's being crowd (of numpties) funded.

    He perhaps has a case which can be argued even if not won, since his complaint is about being associated with antisemitism.

    Does equating his pet conspiracy theory with the Holocaust amount to antisemitism, or is it just offensive and imbecilic ?

    And if there's a distinction, is it actionable ?


  • Options
    @HYUFD how does this one get spun to show Keir should resign?
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    Apologies for FPTing this, but it raises an interesting point of law.

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andrew Bridgen sues Matt Hancock for £100,000 over Covid vaccine row

    Hancock accused Bridgen of spouting ‘anti-Semitic, anti-vax conspiracy theories’ after he compared effects of the vaccines to the Holocaust


    According to the seven-page “letter before action”, Mr Bridgen wants Mr Hancock to “retract and delete the defamatory statement contained in the tweet complained of with immediate effect”.

    It adds that he should “apologise for the tweet complained of - both orally in the House of Commons - and in writing on Mr Hancock's personal Twitter account”.

    And he said Mr Hancock should “acknowledge full and final settlement of any prospective claim in the form of a payment of £100,000 - to be transferred into a legal fund on behalf of persons seeking collective redress for vaccine harms (under the UK Government's Vaccine Damages Payment Scheme)”.

    Mr Bridgen's legal action is being funded by the Reclaim Party and the ‘Bad Law Project’.

    Laurence Fox, the leader of Reclaim, said: “The Reclaim Party and the Bad Law Project is providing its full support to Mr Bridgen and we want a full apology from Mr Hancock.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/26/matt-hancock-sued-andrew-bridgen-covid-vaccine-holocaust-row/

    I'm on Team Hancock.

    Andrew Bridgen should be done for high treason, hanged, drawn and quartered.

    For making us all endorse Matt Fucking Hancock.
    This Bridgen ?

    What value would you place on his reputation in the unlikely event he were to succeed in his lawsuit ?
    ...In April 2022, High Court Judge Brian Rawlings ruled against Bridgen, stating that he "lied under oath and behaved in an abusive, arrogant and aggressive manner", was "an unreliable and combative witness who tried to conceal his own misconduct", and "gave evasive and argumentative answers and tangential speeches that avoided answering the questions". ..

    The funniest outcome in some ways would be for Hancock to lose but the judge to set damages at five pounds on the grounds Bridgen has no reputation worth more than that.

    That would exasperate Hancock and bankrupt Bridgen.
    I think he's being crowd (of numpties) funded.

    He perhaps has a case which can be argued even if not won, since his complaint is about being associated with antisemitism.

    Does equating his pet conspiracy theory with the Holocaust amount to antisemitism, or is it just offensive and imbecilic ?

    And if there's a distinction, is it actionable ?


    Yep, I agree. If this gets to court it could create very interesting precedent. My guess is that Hancock will get a lot of very high-profile and extremely credible witnesses from the Jewish community to testify for him.
  • Options
    jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 647
    edited January 2023
    Bridgen is becoming a US-style grifter, isn't he? Just a ruse to send out fundraising emails, get in far more cash than the case will cost, and then it doesn't matter if he wins or loses. (except that a loss will mean he can send out more emails asking for more cash)
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,637
    In the words of Mr P. Weller:

    Governments crack and systems fall
    Coz unity is powerful
    Lights go out- walls come tumbling down

    Alternatively:

    It's coming home
    It's coming home
    The Red Wall's coming home
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,305
    edited January 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Almost all these seats were virtually always Labour until 2019 when they loaned Boris, note Boris not the Tories, their votes to get Brexit done and beat Corbyn. Now Boris and Corbyn have gone and Brexit has been done, no surprise they are returning to Labour.

    However while the Tories are falling back in these working class seats under Sunak, Sunak is holding up better in the upper middle class Blue Wall.

    So perhaps TSE might feel safe to vote Tory again now after voting LD since Cameron, given the average Tory voter is much posher and less common under Rishi than they were under Boris in 2019?

    Even if Rishi loses the next general election he has at least made it safe for snobs to vote Tory again!!

    Edgbaston was always Tory until it fell by a fairly narrow margin in 1997. Since then, admittedly partly helped by demographic change and boundary movements, but mostly due to the hard work of Gisela Stewart and Preet Gill, plus a feeling Labour had delivered for them, it has become very safely Labour.

    That is the kind of attitude the Tories needed in their new seats, and they haven't taken it up.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,637
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Almost all these seats were virtually always Labour until 2019 when they loaned Boris, note Boris not the Tories, their votes to get Brexit done and beat Corbyn. Now Boris and Corbyn have gone and Brexit has been done, no surprise they are returning to Labour.

    However while the Tories are falling back in these working class seats under Sunak, Sunak is holding up better in the upper middle class Blue Wall.

    So perhaps TSE might feel safe to vote Tory again now after voting LD since Cameron, given the average Tory voter is much posher and less common under Rishi than they were under Boris in 2019?

    Even if Rishi loses the next general election he has at least made it safe for snobs to vote Tory again!!

    How on earth did you manage to read the thread, come up with a cogent and relatively lengthy response, and be first poster btl!?
    Proof that he is actually an AI ChatBot!
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,708
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Almost all these seats were virtually always Labour until 2019 when they loaned Boris, note Boris not the Tories, their votes to get Brexit done and beat Corbyn. Now Boris and Corbyn have gone and Brexit has been done, no surprise they are returning to Labour.

    However while the Tories are falling back in these working class seats under Sunak, Sunak is holding up better in the upper middle class Blue Wall.

    So perhaps TSE might feel safe to vote Tory again now after voting LD since Cameron, given the average Tory voter is much posher and less common under Rishi than they were under Boris in 2019?

    Even if Rishi loses the next general election he has at least made it safe for snobs to vote Tory again!!

    How on earth did you manage to read the thread, come up with a cogent and relatively lengthy response, and be first poster btl!?
    Hmmm... good question.

    ChatGTP produces seemingly cogent but often deeply flawed bullshit responses in milliseconds, just sayin'.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,670

    Nigelb said:

    Apologies for FPTing this, but it raises an interesting point of law.

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andrew Bridgen sues Matt Hancock for £100,000 over Covid vaccine row

    Hancock accused Bridgen of spouting ‘anti-Semitic, anti-vax conspiracy theories’ after he compared effects of the vaccines to the Holocaust


    According to the seven-page “letter before action”, Mr Bridgen wants Mr Hancock to “retract and delete the defamatory statement contained in the tweet complained of with immediate effect”.

    It adds that he should “apologise for the tweet complained of - both orally in the House of Commons - and in writing on Mr Hancock's personal Twitter account”.

    And he said Mr Hancock should “acknowledge full and final settlement of any prospective claim in the form of a payment of £100,000 - to be transferred into a legal fund on behalf of persons seeking collective redress for vaccine harms (under the UK Government's Vaccine Damages Payment Scheme)”.

    Mr Bridgen's legal action is being funded by the Reclaim Party and the ‘Bad Law Project’.

    Laurence Fox, the leader of Reclaim, said: “The Reclaim Party and the Bad Law Project is providing its full support to Mr Bridgen and we want a full apology from Mr Hancock.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/26/matt-hancock-sued-andrew-bridgen-covid-vaccine-holocaust-row/

    I'm on Team Hancock.

    Andrew Bridgen should be done for high treason, hanged, drawn and quartered.

    For making us all endorse Matt Fucking Hancock.
    This Bridgen ?

    What value would you place on his reputation in the unlikely event he were to succeed in his lawsuit ?
    ...In April 2022, High Court Judge Brian Rawlings ruled against Bridgen, stating that he "lied under oath and behaved in an abusive, arrogant and aggressive manner", was "an unreliable and combative witness who tried to conceal his own misconduct", and "gave evasive and argumentative answers and tangential speeches that avoided answering the questions". ..

    The funniest outcome in some ways would be for Hancock to lose but the judge to set damages at five pounds on the grounds Bridgen has no reputation worth more than that.

    That would exasperate Hancock and bankrupt Bridgen.
    I think he's being crowd (of numpties) funded.

    He perhaps has a case which can be argued even if not won, since his complaint is about being associated with antisemitism.

    Does equating his pet conspiracy theory with the Holocaust amount to antisemitism, or is it just offensive and imbecilic ?

    And if there's a distinction, is it actionable ?

    Yep, I agree. If this gets to court it could create very interesting precedent. My guess is that Hancock will get a lot of very high-profile and extremely credible witnesses from the Jewish community to testify for him.
    I'd be surprised.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,455
    Nigelb said:

    Apologies for FPTing this, but it raises an interesting point of law.

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andrew Bridgen sues Matt Hancock for £100,000 over Covid vaccine row

    Hancock accused Bridgen of spouting ‘anti-Semitic, anti-vax conspiracy theories’ after he compared effects of the vaccines to the Holocaust


    According to the seven-page “letter before action”, Mr Bridgen wants Mr Hancock to “retract and delete the defamatory statement contained in the tweet complained of with immediate effect”.

    It adds that he should “apologise for the tweet complained of - both orally in the House of Commons - and in writing on Mr Hancock's personal Twitter account”.

    And he said Mr Hancock should “acknowledge full and final settlement of any prospective claim in the form of a payment of £100,000 - to be transferred into a legal fund on behalf of persons seeking collective redress for vaccine harms (under the UK Government's Vaccine Damages Payment Scheme)”.

    Mr Bridgen's legal action is being funded by the Reclaim Party and the ‘Bad Law Project’.

    Laurence Fox, the leader of Reclaim, said: “The Reclaim Party and the Bad Law Project is providing its full support to Mr Bridgen and we want a full apology from Mr Hancock.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/26/matt-hancock-sued-andrew-bridgen-covid-vaccine-holocaust-row/

    I'm on Team Hancock.

    Andrew Bridgen should be done for high treason, hanged, drawn and quartered.

    For making us all endorse Matt Fucking Hancock.
    This Bridgen ?

    What value would you place on his reputation in the unlikely event he were to succeed in his lawsuit ?
    ...In April 2022, High Court Judge Brian Rawlings ruled against Bridgen, stating that he "lied under oath and behaved in an abusive, arrogant and aggressive manner", was "an unreliable and combative witness who tried to conceal his own misconduct", and "gave evasive and argumentative answers and tangential speeches that avoided answering the questions". ..

    The funniest outcome in some ways would be for Hancock to lose but the judge to set damages at five pounds on the grounds Bridgen has no reputation worth more than that.

    That would exasperate Hancock and bankrupt Bridgen.
    I think he's being crowd (of numpties) funded.

    He perhaps has a case which can be argued even if not won, since his complaint is about being associated with antisemitism.

    Does equating his pet conspiracy theory with the Holocaust amount to antisemitism, or is it just offensive and imbecilic ?

    And if there's a distinction, is it actionable ?


    It is interesting. If he was pro-vaccine then it's clearly antisemitic - vaccine is good and the holocause is like the vaccine - but if he sincerely believes vaccines cause a harm on the scale of the holocaust then perhaps it isn't, merely imbecilic.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,305

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Almost all these seats were virtually always Labour until 2019 when they loaned Boris, note Boris not the Tories, their votes to get Brexit done and beat Corbyn. Now Boris and Corbyn have gone and Brexit has been done, no surprise they are returning to Labour.

    However while the Tories are falling back in these working class seats under Sunak, Sunak is holding up better in the upper middle class Blue Wall.

    So perhaps TSE might feel safe to vote Tory again now after voting LD since Cameron, given the average Tory voter is much posher and less common under Rishi than they were under Boris in 2019?

    Even if Rishi loses the next general election he has at least made it safe for snobs to vote Tory again!!

    How on earth did you manage to read the thread, come up with a cogent and relatively lengthy response, and be first poster btl!?
    Hmmm... good question.

    ChatGTP produces seemingly cogent but often deeply flawed bullshit responses in milliseconds, just sayin'.
    Do we know that he didn't write a random word to bagsy first, then edit the post to that length. :smile:

    (I'm only joking. I don't think Hyufd would do that.)
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,670
    edited January 2023
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Apologies for FPTing this, but it raises an interesting point of law.

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andrew Bridgen sues Matt Hancock for £100,000 over Covid vaccine row

    Hancock accused Bridgen of spouting ‘anti-Semitic, anti-vax conspiracy theories’ after he compared effects of the vaccines to the Holocaust


    According to the seven-page “letter before action”, Mr Bridgen wants Mr Hancock to “retract and delete the defamatory statement contained in the tweet complained of with immediate effect”.

    It adds that he should “apologise for the tweet complained of - both orally in the House of Commons - and in writing on Mr Hancock's personal Twitter account”.

    And he said Mr Hancock should “acknowledge full and final settlement of any prospective claim in the form of a payment of £100,000 - to be transferred into a legal fund on behalf of persons seeking collective redress for vaccine harms (under the UK Government's Vaccine Damages Payment Scheme)”.

    Mr Bridgen's legal action is being funded by the Reclaim Party and the ‘Bad Law Project’.

    Laurence Fox, the leader of Reclaim, said: “The Reclaim Party and the Bad Law Project is providing its full support to Mr Bridgen and we want a full apology from Mr Hancock.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/26/matt-hancock-sued-andrew-bridgen-covid-vaccine-holocaust-row/

    I'm on Team Hancock.

    Andrew Bridgen should be done for high treason, hanged, drawn and quartered.

    For making us all endorse Matt Fucking Hancock.
    This Bridgen ?

    What value would you place on his reputation in the unlikely event he were to succeed in his lawsuit ?
    ...In April 2022, High Court Judge Brian Rawlings ruled against Bridgen, stating that he "lied under oath and behaved in an abusive, arrogant and aggressive manner", was "an unreliable and combative witness who tried to conceal his own misconduct", and "gave evasive and argumentative answers and tangential speeches that avoided answering the questions". ..

    The funniest outcome in some ways would be for Hancock to lose but the judge to set damages at five pounds on the grounds Bridgen has no reputation worth more than that.

    That would exasperate Hancock and bankrupt Bridgen.
    I think he's being crowd (of numpties) funded.

    He perhaps has a case which can be argued even if not won, since his complaint is about being associated with antisemitism.

    Does equating his pet conspiracy theory with the Holocaust amount to antisemitism, or is it just offensive and imbecilic ?

    And if there's a distinction, is it actionable ?


    It is interesting. If he was pro-vaccine then it's clearly antisemitic - vaccine is good and the holocause is like the vaccine - but if he sincerely believes vaccines cause a harm on the scale of the holocaust then perhaps it isn't, merely imbecilic.
    One could also argue that it's not unreasonable to associate belittling the Holocaust in this manner with antisemitism.

    The legal test is what a reasonable person would hold, isn't it ?
    Since the anti-vax thing is a blatantly untrue conspiracy theory, equating it to a vastly well documented historical event lays you open to the charge.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,031
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Almost all these seats were virtually always Labour until 2019 when they loaned Boris, note Boris not the Tories, their votes to get Brexit done and beat Corbyn. Now Boris and Corbyn have gone and Brexit has been done, no surprise they are returning to Labour.

    However while the Tories are falling back in these working class seats under Sunak, Sunak is holding up better in the upper middle class Blue Wall.

    So perhaps TSE might feel safe to vote Tory again now after voting LD since Cameron, given the average Tory voter is much posher and less common under Rishi than they were under Boris in 2019?

    Even if Rishi loses the next general election he has at least made it safe for snobs to vote Tory again!!

    Edgbaston was always Tory until it fell by a fairly narrow margin in 1997. Since then, admittedly partly helped by demographic change and boundary movements, but mostly due to the hard work of Gisela Stewart and Preet Gill, plus a feeling Labour had delivered for them, it has become very safely Labour.

    That is the kind of attitude the Tories needed in their new seats, and they haven't taken it up.
    Albeit Labour still lost almost 100 seats in 2010 and more in 2019 in England and Wales.

    We can't know until the next general election if any hardworking redwall MPs defy the trend like Stewart.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,455
    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Apologies for FPTing this, but it raises an interesting point of law.

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andrew Bridgen sues Matt Hancock for £100,000 over Covid vaccine row

    Hancock accused Bridgen of spouting ‘anti-Semitic, anti-vax conspiracy theories’ after he compared effects of the vaccines to the Holocaust


    According to the seven-page “letter before action”, Mr Bridgen wants Mr Hancock to “retract and delete the defamatory statement contained in the tweet complained of with immediate effect”.

    It adds that he should “apologise for the tweet complained of - both orally in the House of Commons - and in writing on Mr Hancock's personal Twitter account”.

    And he said Mr Hancock should “acknowledge full and final settlement of any prospective claim in the form of a payment of £100,000 - to be transferred into a legal fund on behalf of persons seeking collective redress for vaccine harms (under the UK Government's Vaccine Damages Payment Scheme)”.

    Mr Bridgen's legal action is being funded by the Reclaim Party and the ‘Bad Law Project’.

    Laurence Fox, the leader of Reclaim, said: “The Reclaim Party and the Bad Law Project is providing its full support to Mr Bridgen and we want a full apology from Mr Hancock.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/26/matt-hancock-sued-andrew-bridgen-covid-vaccine-holocaust-row/

    I'm on Team Hancock.

    Andrew Bridgen should be done for high treason, hanged, drawn and quartered.

    For making us all endorse Matt Fucking Hancock.
    This Bridgen ?

    What value would you place on his reputation in the unlikely event he were to succeed in his lawsuit ?
    ...In April 2022, High Court Judge Brian Rawlings ruled against Bridgen, stating that he "lied under oath and behaved in an abusive, arrogant and aggressive manner", was "an unreliable and combative witness who tried to conceal his own misconduct", and "gave evasive and argumentative answers and tangential speeches that avoided answering the questions". ..

    The funniest outcome in some ways would be for Hancock to lose but the judge to set damages at five pounds on the grounds Bridgen has no reputation worth more than that.

    That would exasperate Hancock and bankrupt Bridgen.
    I think he's being crowd (of numpties) funded.

    He perhaps has a case which can be argued even if not won, since his complaint is about being associated with antisemitism.

    Does equating his pet conspiracy theory with the Holocaust amount to antisemitism, or is it just offensive and imbecilic ?

    And if there's a distinction, is it actionable ?


    It is interesting. If he was pro-vaccine then it's clearly antisemitic - vaccine is good and the holocause is like the vaccine - but if he sincerely believes vaccines cause a harm on the scale of the holocaust then perhaps it isn't, merely imbecilic.
    One could also argue that it's not unreasonable to associate belittling the Holocaust in this manner with antisemitism.
    One could indeed. Bridgen will presumably have to try hard to prove that he is sufficiently stupid to believe equivalence and therefore wasn't belittling.

    But yes - an interesting piece of law if it goes to court on whether Hancock's comments re antisemitism are held to be fair or not.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,047

    In the words of Mr P. Weller:

    Governments crack and systems fall
    Coz unity is powerful
    Lights go out- walls come tumbling down

    Alternatively:

    It's coming home
    It's coming home
    The Red Wall's coming home

    Labour lost the 'Red Wall' because they ignored Red Wallers for too long; there was an attitude of "who else will they vote for?". This was after they failed to learn the lessons from Glasgow a few years earlier. The Conservatives actually pretended to acknowledge Red Wallers existed.

    The Red Wall are pi**ed off with the Tories at the moment, like most of the rest of the country. But Labour have a leader who seems to get a nosebleed if he goes outside the M25, and Red Wallers have realised they *can* vote for parties other than Labour. Many will turn back to Labour at the next GE, but unless Labour listens to them, the party will get punished in the future.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,761
    Up until now, the answer from ministers has been that it is not responsible for SPS operational matters on where prisoners are placed within the prison estate but the FM has now been able to reveal that "this prisoner" will not be incarcerated in Cornton Vale. #FMQs

    https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1618581083989377025

    Of course, under Scottish Prison Guidelines since 2014they still could be….and who is politically responsible for those guidelines?
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Apologies for FPTing this, but it raises an interesting point of law.

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andrew Bridgen sues Matt Hancock for £100,000 over Covid vaccine row

    Hancock accused Bridgen of spouting ‘anti-Semitic, anti-vax conspiracy theories’ after he compared effects of the vaccines to the Holocaust


    According to the seven-page “letter before action”, Mr Bridgen wants Mr Hancock to “retract and delete the defamatory statement contained in the tweet complained of with immediate effect”.

    It adds that he should “apologise for the tweet complained of - both orally in the House of Commons - and in writing on Mr Hancock's personal Twitter account”.

    And he said Mr Hancock should “acknowledge full and final settlement of any prospective claim in the form of a payment of £100,000 - to be transferred into a legal fund on behalf of persons seeking collective redress for vaccine harms (under the UK Government's Vaccine Damages Payment Scheme)”.

    Mr Bridgen's legal action is being funded by the Reclaim Party and the ‘Bad Law Project’.

    Laurence Fox, the leader of Reclaim, said: “The Reclaim Party and the Bad Law Project is providing its full support to Mr Bridgen and we want a full apology from Mr Hancock.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/26/matt-hancock-sued-andrew-bridgen-covid-vaccine-holocaust-row/

    I'm on Team Hancock.

    Andrew Bridgen should be done for high treason, hanged, drawn and quartered.

    For making us all endorse Matt Fucking Hancock.
    This Bridgen ?

    What value would you place on his reputation in the unlikely event he were to succeed in his lawsuit ?
    ...In April 2022, High Court Judge Brian Rawlings ruled against Bridgen, stating that he "lied under oath and behaved in an abusive, arrogant and aggressive manner", was "an unreliable and combative witness who tried to conceal his own misconduct", and "gave evasive and argumentative answers and tangential speeches that avoided answering the questions". ..

    The funniest outcome in some ways would be for Hancock to lose but the judge to set damages at five pounds on the grounds Bridgen has no reputation worth more than that.

    That would exasperate Hancock and bankrupt Bridgen.
    I think he's being crowd (of numpties) funded.

    He perhaps has a case which can be argued even if not won, since his complaint is about being associated with antisemitism.

    Does equating his pet conspiracy theory with the Holocaust amount to antisemitism, or is it just offensive and imbecilic ?

    And if there's a distinction, is it actionable ?


    It is interesting. If he was pro-vaccine then it's clearly antisemitic - vaccine is good and the holocause is like the vaccine - but if he sincerely believes vaccines cause a harm on the scale of the holocaust then perhaps it isn't, merely imbecilic.
    One could also argue that it's not unreasonable to associate belittling the Holocaust in this manner with antisemitism.

    The legal test is what a reasonable person would hold, isn't it ?
    Since the anti-vax thing is a blatantly untrue conspiracy theory, equating it to a vastly well documented historical event lays you open to the charge.
    I'm not sure Bridgen is clever enough to do that - his "thought processes", for want of a better phrase, surely didn't go past "what's the best known Bad Thing that I can equate this with?"
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,670
    edited January 2023
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Apologies for FPTing this, but it raises an interesting point of law.

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andrew Bridgen sues Matt Hancock for £100,000 over Covid vaccine row

    Hancock accused Bridgen of spouting ‘anti-Semitic, anti-vax conspiracy theories’ after he compared effects of the vaccines to the Holocaust


    According to the seven-page “letter before action”, Mr Bridgen wants Mr Hancock to “retract and delete the defamatory statement contained in the tweet complained of with immediate effect”.

    It adds that he should “apologise for the tweet complained of - both orally in the House of Commons - and in writing on Mr Hancock's personal Twitter account”.

    And he said Mr Hancock should “acknowledge full and final settlement of any prospective claim in the form of a payment of £100,000 - to be transferred into a legal fund on behalf of persons seeking collective redress for vaccine harms (under the UK Government's Vaccine Damages Payment Scheme)”.

    Mr Bridgen's legal action is being funded by the Reclaim Party and the ‘Bad Law Project’.

    Laurence Fox, the leader of Reclaim, said: “The Reclaim Party and the Bad Law Project is providing its full support to Mr Bridgen and we want a full apology from Mr Hancock.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/26/matt-hancock-sued-andrew-bridgen-covid-vaccine-holocaust-row/

    I'm on Team Hancock.

    Andrew Bridgen should be done for high treason, hanged, drawn and quartered.

    For making us all endorse Matt Fucking Hancock.
    This Bridgen ?

    What value would you place on his reputation in the unlikely event he were to succeed in his lawsuit ?
    ...In April 2022, High Court Judge Brian Rawlings ruled against Bridgen, stating that he "lied under oath and behaved in an abusive, arrogant and aggressive manner", was "an unreliable and combative witness who tried to conceal his own misconduct", and "gave evasive and argumentative answers and tangential speeches that avoided answering the questions". ..

    The funniest outcome in some ways would be for Hancock to lose but the judge to set damages at five pounds on the grounds Bridgen has no reputation worth more than that.

    That would exasperate Hancock and bankrupt Bridgen.
    I think he's being crowd (of numpties) funded.

    He perhaps has a case which can be argued even if not won, since his complaint is about being associated with antisemitism.

    Does equating his pet conspiracy theory with the Holocaust amount to antisemitism, or is it just offensive and imbecilic ?

    And if there's a distinction, is it actionable ?


    It is interesting. If he was pro-vaccine then it's clearly antisemitic - vaccine is good and the holocause is like the vaccine - but if he sincerely believes vaccines cause a harm on the scale of the holocaust then perhaps it isn't, merely imbecilic.
    One could also argue that it's not unreasonable to associate belittling the Holocaust in this manner with antisemitism.
    One could indeed. Bridgen will presumably have to try hard to prove that he is sufficiently stupid to believe equivalence and therefore wasn't belittling.

    But yes - an interesting piece of law if it goes to court on whether Hancock's comments re antisemitism are held to be fair or not.
    I don't think Hancock called Bridgen an antisemite; rather that he had tweeted antisemitic arguments. In that case what Bridgen personally believed isn't really relevant.

    Having thought it through, I thinks it's probably an Arkell v Pressdram case.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,459

    @HYUFD how does this one get spun to show Keir should resign?

    (Don’t knows + UKIP + RefUk) * 36.3 = Tories nailed on

    So Keith is Crap.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,659

    In the words of Mr P. Weller:

    Governments crack and systems fall
    Coz unity is powerful
    Lights go out- walls come tumbling down

    Alternatively:

    It's coming home
    It's coming home
    The Red Wall's coming home

    Labour lost the 'Red Wall' because they ignored Red Wallers for too long; there was an attitude of "who else will they vote for?". This was after they failed to learn the lessons from Glasgow a few years earlier. The Conservatives actually pretended to acknowledge Red Wallers existed.

    The Red Wall are pi**ed off with the Tories at the moment, like most of the rest of the country. But Labour have a leader who seems to get a nosebleed if he goes outside the M25, and Red Wallers have realised they *can* vote for parties other than Labour. Many will turn back to Labour at the next GE, but unless Labour listens to them, the party will get punished in the future.
    I think the red wall reversal the Tories are facing is similar to what befell the Lib Dems after 2010. A load of new voters with raised expectations having been promised change, who very quickly become extremely disillusioned. Failing to deliver on levelling up is the tuition fees equivalent.

    Blue wall was always more Tory than the red wall so you can’t directly compare polling that easily. One big factor in the South East in 2019 was Corbyn toxicity so the simple unwinding of this and greater tactical voting efficiency should help the Lib Dems (and Labour) even if the swing isn’t as big as up North.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Almost all these seats were virtually always Labour until 2019 when they loaned Boris, note Boris not the Tories, their votes to get Brexit done and beat Corbyn. Now Boris and Corbyn have gone and Brexit has been done, no surprise they are returning to Labour.

    However while the Tories are falling back in these working class seats under Sunak, Sunak is holding up better in the upper middle class Blue Wall.

    So perhaps TSE might feel safe to vote Tory again now after voting LD since Cameron, given the average Tory voter is much posher and less common under Rishi than they were under Boris in 2019?

    Even if Rishi loses the next general election he has at least made it safe for snobs to vote Tory again!!

    Edgbaston was always Tory until it fell by a fairly narrow margin in 1997. Since then, admittedly partly helped by demographic change and boundary movements, but mostly due to the hard work of Gisela Stewart and Preet Gill, plus a feeling Labour had delivered for them, it has become very safely Labour.

    That is the kind of attitude the Tories needed in their new seats, and they haven't taken it up.
    Albeit Labour still lost almost 100 seats in 2010 and more in 2019 in England and Wales.

    We can't know until the next general election if any hardworking redwall MPs defy the trend like Stewart.
    I suspect a few will hold on in the Midlands, especially the east. Aaron Bell, late of this parish, will retain his seat I reckon, as will Ben Bradley. Both with room to spare.

  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,455
    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Apologies for FPTing this, but it raises an interesting point of law.

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andrew Bridgen sues Matt Hancock for £100,000 over Covid vaccine row

    Hancock accused Bridgen of spouting ‘anti-Semitic, anti-vax conspiracy theories’ after he compared effects of the vaccines to the Holocaust


    According to the seven-page “letter before action”, Mr Bridgen wants Mr Hancock to “retract and delete the defamatory statement contained in the tweet complained of with immediate effect”.

    It adds that he should “apologise for the tweet complained of - both orally in the House of Commons - and in writing on Mr Hancock's personal Twitter account”.

    And he said Mr Hancock should “acknowledge full and final settlement of any prospective claim in the form of a payment of £100,000 - to be transferred into a legal fund on behalf of persons seeking collective redress for vaccine harms (under the UK Government's Vaccine Damages Payment Scheme)”.

    Mr Bridgen's legal action is being funded by the Reclaim Party and the ‘Bad Law Project’.

    Laurence Fox, the leader of Reclaim, said: “The Reclaim Party and the Bad Law Project is providing its full support to Mr Bridgen and we want a full apology from Mr Hancock.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/26/matt-hancock-sued-andrew-bridgen-covid-vaccine-holocaust-row/

    I'm on Team Hancock.

    Andrew Bridgen should be done for high treason, hanged, drawn and quartered.

    For making us all endorse Matt Fucking Hancock.
    This Bridgen ?

    What value would you place on his reputation in the unlikely event he were to succeed in his lawsuit ?
    ...In April 2022, High Court Judge Brian Rawlings ruled against Bridgen, stating that he "lied under oath and behaved in an abusive, arrogant and aggressive manner", was "an unreliable and combative witness who tried to conceal his own misconduct", and "gave evasive and argumentative answers and tangential speeches that avoided answering the questions". ..

    The funniest outcome in some ways would be for Hancock to lose but the judge to set damages at five pounds on the grounds Bridgen has no reputation worth more than that.

    That would exasperate Hancock and bankrupt Bridgen.
    I think he's being crowd (of numpties) funded.

    He perhaps has a case which can be argued even if not won, since his complaint is about being associated with antisemitism.

    Does equating his pet conspiracy theory with the Holocaust amount to antisemitism, or is it just offensive and imbecilic ?

    And if there's a distinction, is it actionable ?


    It is interesting. If he was pro-vaccine then it's clearly antisemitic - vaccine is good and the holocause is like the vaccine - but if he sincerely believes vaccines cause a harm on the scale of the holocaust then perhaps it isn't, merely imbecilic.
    One could also argue that it's not unreasonable to associate belittling the Holocaust in this manner with antisemitism.
    One could indeed. Bridgen will presumably have to try hard to prove that he is sufficiently stupid to believe equivalence and therefore wasn't belittling.

    But yes - an interesting piece of law if it goes to court on whether Hancock's comments re antisemitism are held to be fair or not.
    I don't think Hancock called Bridgen an antisemite; rather that he had tweeted antisemitic arguments. In that case what Bridgen personally believed isn't really relevant.

    Having thought it through, I thinks it's probably an Arkell v Pressdram case.
    Yes, I suspect you are right.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,305

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    You're a hoot a minute, Mr Owls!
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,880
    On Topic what was Labour's lead in these seats in 2017?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,670

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    Careful - if that was your only reason, you might end up eloping with @ydoethur .
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,804

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    Mr Trump doesn't tweet? News to us all.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,880
    Carnyx said:

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    Mr Trump doesn't tweet? News to us all.
    Yes she should have said still the parakeet was still tweeting
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,453

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    I see parakeets most days in suburban South Manchester.
    Five years ago, I saw my first one, and was astonished. In fact my then three year old saw it - 'parrot', she said. I didn't really believe her (although the noise it made was rather exotic) - but I looked, and yes, a parrot, or near enough. And now you see them most days. They nest in the Mersey Valley and flock in great numbers. The speed of their population growth is faintly alarming. Though we don't yet have as many here as I saw in Sefton Park in Liverpool. Bloody hundreds of them there.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,305
    edited January 2023

    On Topic what was Labour's lead in these seats in 2017?

    Quite narrow, in many cases. Newcastle under Lyme was held by 34 votes, Bishop Auckland by 502, Dudley North by 22, Wakefield by just over 2000, Delyn by 1200.

    Yes, there were some spectacular swings like Bassetlaw, North West Durham, Blyth Valley and Bridgend which had been safely Labour and fell to the Tories in 2019 but the unspoken story of the last 20 years has been the gradual creep of the Conservatives in semi-rural ex-industrial seats. Corbyn scored some spectacular successes in 2017 but that general trend was unchanged.

    In fact, with a very modest change in campaigning focus to win a few thousand votes in just 50 seats May might well have won a majority analogous to Johnosn's.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,880
    Having my first holiday on my own for many a year. Based in Barry Island I am both trainhopping and groundhopping TFW app and Cymru football app are my best friends.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,670
    Cookie said:

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    I see parakeets most days in suburban South Manchester.
    Five years ago, I saw my first one, and was astonished. In fact my then three year old saw it - 'parrot', she said. I didn't really believe her (although the noise it made was rather exotic) - but I looked, and yes, a parrot, or near enough. And now you see them most days. They nest in the Mersey Valley and flock in great numbers. The speed of their population growth is faintly alarming. Though we don't yet have as many here as I saw in Sefton Park in Liverpool. Bloody hundreds of them there.
    Do we blame Humphrey Bogart or Jimmi Hendrix ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_parakeets_in_Great_Britain
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,047
    The Big Z is a class act:

    "The moment @ZelenskyyUa 's found out Germany was sending Leopard 2s to Ukraine."

    https://twitter.com/walter_report/status/1618316719445143552
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,880
    ydoethur said:

    On Topic what was Labour's lead in these seats in 2017?

    Quite narrow, in many cases. Newcastle under Lyme was held by 34 votes, Bishop Auckland by 502, Dudley North by 22, Wakefield by just over 2000, Delyn by 1200.

    Yes, there were some spectacular swings like Bassetlaw, North West Durham, Blyth Valley and Bridgend which had been safely Labour and fell to the Tories in 2019 but the unspoken story of the last 20 years has been the gradual creep of the Conservatives in semi-rural ex-industrial seats. Corbyn scored some spectacular successes in 2017 but that general trend was unchanged.

    In fact, with a very modest change in campaigning focus to win a few thousand votes in just 50 seats May might well have won a majority analogous to Johnosn's.
    Or if Lab. HQ hadn't diverted money away from winnable marginals to safe favourite Blairite seats the opposite could have been true.

    But hey its 2023 now and I am on holiday..
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,880

    The Big Z is a class act:

    "The moment @ZelenskyyUa 's found out Germany was sending Leopard 2s to Ukraine."

    https://twitter.com/walter_report/status/1618316719445143552

    Looks like he needs a good sleep.

    Hopefully, he will get one soon.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    On Topic what was Labour's lead in these seats in 2017?

    Quite narrow, in many cases. Newcastle under Lyme was held by 34 votes, Bishop Auckland by 502, Dudley North by 22, Wakefield by just over 2000, Delyn by 1200.

    Yes, there were some spectacular swings like Bassetlaw, North West Durham, Blyth Valley and Bridgend which had been safely Labour and fell to the Tories in 2019 but the unspoken story of the last 20 years has been the gradual creep of the Conservatives in semi-rural ex-industrial seats. Corbyn scored some spectacular successes in 2017 but that general trend was unchanged.

    In fact, with a very modest change in campaigning focus to win a few thousand votes in just 50 seats May might well have won a majority analogous to Johnosn's.
    Or if Lab. HQ hadn't diverted money away from winnable marginals to safe favourite Blairite seats the opposite could have been true.

    But hey its 2023 now and I am on holiday..
    This has been proven to be false and in any case this didn’t happen in 2019 and Labour lost in a landslide, so please explain that?
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    There must come a a point when people accept that the Tory/Brexit/Johnson brand is kaput. That is to say unsalvageable. That means it's reached a point where nothing can resuscitate it. A point in a brands existence where no one would take the account without a complete change of corporate identity which will take years.

    That's where the Tories are.
  • Options
    Off topic on the Hancock Bridgen barney - I struggle to see how this is anything other than vexatious. Mancock made a statement in parliament - legally bullet proof. He then tweets a video clip of his statement with a direct quote of his statement as he tweet.

    Qualified privilege m'lud.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,046

    I’m not voting Tory.

    I’m contemplating voting Labour.

    I’m utterly sick of the sleaze, grift, and outright corruption this government has normalised.

    Are you bored of Tory sleaze stories? Most Conservative MPs are. They’re fed up with the way their party keeps tripping over its own shoelaces, wearied of new revelations about senior figures and sums of money their constituents can’t even imagine.

    But they also hope their voters are bored. “We aren’t being shouted at on the doorstep by our own supporters, like we were in the worst days of Boris,” says one MP, wanly. “I’m not sure many of them are paying attention or care about these latest rows,” says a senior backbencher, rather hopefully.

    This is a pretty dismal situation for Conservatives to be in: hoping their voters are bored of their dysfunction or at least numbed to it.


    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/tory-sleaze-problem-govern-b1055824.html
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,670

    Off topic on the Hancock Bridgen barney - I struggle to see how this is anything other than vexatious. Mancock made a statement in parliament - legally bullet proof. He then tweets a video clip of his statement with a direct quote of his statement as he tweet.

    Qualified privilege m'lud.

    What is the legal status of tweeting what was your own privileged statement ?
    It's not reporting; doesn't it amount to repeating the statement outside of Parliament ?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,670
    Scott_xP said:

    I’m not voting Tory.

    I’m contemplating voting Labour.

    I’m utterly sick of the sleaze, grift, and outright corruption this government has normalised.

    Are you bored of Tory sleaze stories? Most Conservative MPs are. They’re fed up with the way their party keeps tripping over its own shoelaces, wearied of new revelations about senior figures and sums of money their constituents can’t even imagine.

    But they also hope their voters are bored. “We aren’t being shouted at on the doorstep by our own supporters, like we were in the worst days of Boris,” says one MP, wanly. “I’m not sure many of them are paying attention or care about these latest rows,” says a senior backbencher, rather hopefully.

    This is a pretty dismal situation for Conservatives to be in: hoping their voters are bored of their dysfunction or at least numbed to it.


    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/tory-sleaze-problem-govern-b1055824.html
    That only works if you're sufficiently brazen like Trump.

    And even then actively celebrating their own corruption and venality is unlikely to have quite the same electoral appeal in the UK.
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    Scott_xP said:

    I’m not voting Tory.

    I’m contemplating voting Labour.

    I’m utterly sick of the sleaze, grift, and outright corruption this government has normalised.

    Are you bored of Tory sleaze stories? Most Conservative MPs are. They’re fed up with the way their party keeps tripping over its own shoelaces, wearied of new revelations about senior figures and sums of money their constituents can’t even imagine.

    But they also hope their voters are bored. “We aren’t being shouted at on the doorstep by our own supporters, like we were in the worst days of Boris,” says one MP, wanly. “I’m not sure many of them are paying attention or care about these latest rows,” says a senior backbencher, rather hopefully.

    This is a pretty dismal situation for Conservatives to be in: hoping their voters are bored of their dysfunction or at least numbed to it.


    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/tory-sleaze-problem-govern-b1055824.html
    I suspect the seatbelt story being headline news has led to the numbing
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,047

    The Big Z is a class act:

    "The moment @ZelenskyyUa 's found out Germany was sending Leopard 2s to Ukraine."

    https://twitter.com/walter_report/status/1618316719445143552

    Looks like he needs a good sleep.

    Hopefully, he will get one soon.
    I'd like him to have a mahoosive victory party first.

    But the problem is, there's a good chance that the war will not end like that. There needs to be a radical change in thinking within the Kremlin about how they treat the rest of the world, and especially their neighbours, or wit will just be another cold war, with the 'wall' hundreds of miles east of where it used to be. And that shift will not be NATOs fault, but Russia's.

    And that change in thinking is something only the Russians can do; we cannot force it.

    Also, the war is just the start for Ukraine. They are going to need a massive rebuilding and restructuring program, especially if they go back to the 2014 borders.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,556
    Cookie said:

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    I see parakeets most days in suburban South Manchester.
    Five years ago, I saw my first one, and was astonished. In fact my then three year old saw it - 'parrot', she said. I didn't really believe her (although the noise it made was rather exotic) - but I looked, and yes, a parrot, or near enough. And now you see them most days. They nest in the Mersey Valley and flock in great numbers. The speed of their population growth is faintly alarming. Though we don't yet have as many here as I saw in Sefton Park in Liverpool. Bloody hundreds of them there.
    Buckingham Palace garden hosts a few.

  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,556
    Scott_xP said:

    I’m not voting Tory.

    I’m contemplating voting Labour.

    I’m utterly sick of the sleaze, grift, and outright corruption this government has normalised.

    Are you bored of Tory sleaze stories? Most Conservative MPs are. They’re fed up with the way their party keeps tripping over its own shoelaces, wearied of new revelations about senior figures and sums of money their constituents can’t even imagine.

    But they also hope their voters are bored. “We aren’t being shouted at on the doorstep by our own supporters, like we were in the worst days of Boris,” says one MP, wanly. “I’m not sure many of them are paying attention or care about these latest rows,” says a senior backbencher, rather hopefully.

    This is a pretty dismal situation for Conservatives to be in: hoping their voters are bored of their dysfunction or at least numbed to it.


    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/tory-sleaze-problem-govern-b1055824.html
    The indifference may be because for a lot of loyal usually Tory voters there is now no question whatever of voting for them. The interesting questions have moved on: Is to safe to vote Labour? Can a Lab/LD alliance be voted in? What on earth to do about the SNP? Can anyone do a sane Brexit revisit? Is Richard Burgon an Avatar? Is Laura Pidcock extinct or merely hibernating? What does Ian Lavery use as a brain? Are the anti-semites just keeping quiet or have they been put away?

    As voting Tory is not a current option on purely moral grounds (and a billion other reasons) suddenly these questions become interesting, and the Tories become yesterday's women (and men).


  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,046
    algarkirk said:

    The indifference may be because for a lot of loyal usually Tory voters there is now no question whatever of voting for them. The interesting questions have moved on: Is to safe to vote Labour? Can a Lab/LD alliance be voted in? What on earth to do about the SNP? Can anyone do a sane Brexit revisit? Is Richard Burgon an Avatar? Is Laura Pidcock extinct or merely hibernating? What does Ian Lavery use as a brain? Are the anti-semites just keeping quiet or have they been put away?

    As voting Tory is not a current option on purely moral grounds (and a billion other reasons) suddenly these questions become interesting, and the Tories become yesterday's women (and men).

    I would be very interested to see the inbox of the local party chair of the Startford Upon Avon Conservative Association.

    Never mind cabinet minister, or party chair, why is Zahawi still a candidate?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,670
    Russian response to the Ukraine tank news.
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1618564448582774784
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,670
    Scott_xP said:

    algarkirk said:

    The indifference may be because for a lot of loyal usually Tory voters there is now no question whatever of voting for them. The interesting questions have moved on: Is to safe to vote Labour? Can a Lab/LD alliance be voted in? What on earth to do about the SNP? Can anyone do a sane Brexit revisit? Is Richard Burgon an Avatar? Is Laura Pidcock extinct or merely hibernating? What does Ian Lavery use as a brain? Are the anti-semites just keeping quiet or have they been put away?

    As voting Tory is not a current option on purely moral grounds (and a billion other reasons) suddenly these questions become interesting, and the Tories become yesterday's women (and men).

    I would be very interested to see the inbox of the local party chair of the Startford Upon Avon Conservative Association.

    Never mind cabinet minister, or party chair, why is Zahawi still a candidate?
    Stratford, you say ?
    Get thee glass eyes, and like a scurvy politician, seem to see the things thou dost not.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,455
    Nigelb said:

    Russian response to the Ukraine tank news.
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1618564448582774784

    Tried. Tested. Retired Retried
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,761
    Make no mistake. This is a comprehensive defeat and singular humiliation for Sturgeon. All that "criminals won't try to get into female spaces", all that "most marginalised people", all that "be kind and respect a self declared identity"
    That house of cards just utterly collapsed


    https://twitter.com/jebadoo2/status/1618591781410729989
  • Options
    Cookie said:

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    I see parakeets most days in suburban South Manchester.
    Five years ago, I saw my first one, and was astonished. In fact my then three year old saw it - 'parrot', she said. I didn't really believe her (although the noise it made was rather exotic) - but I looked, and yes, a parrot, or near enough. And now you see them most days. They nest in the Mersey Valley and flock in great numbers. The speed of their population growth is faintly alarming. Though we don't yet have as many here as I saw in Sefton Park in Liverpool. Bloody hundreds of them there.
    I'm a member at Chorlton Golf Club, loads seem to live there and at the neighbouring water park.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,997
    ydoethur said:

    On Topic what was Labour's lead in these seats in 2017?

    Quite narrow, in many cases. Newcastle under Lyme was held by 34 votes, Bishop Auckland by 502, Dudley North by 22, Wakefield by just over 2000, Delyn by 1200.

    Yes, there were some spectacular swings like Bassetlaw, North West Durham, Blyth Valley and Bridgend which had been safely Labour and fell to the Tories in 2019 but the unspoken story of the last 20 years has been the gradual creep of the Conservatives in semi-rural ex-industrial seats. Corbyn scored some spectacular successes in 2017 but that general trend was unchanged.

    In fact, with a very modest change in campaigning focus to win a few thousand votes in just 50 seats May might well have won a majority analogous to Johnosn's.
    Oh if it wasn't for her political suicidal social care announcement she would have won a Bozo sized majority and we wouldn't be anywhere near the current mess.

    Although equally she would have had to run a 5 year Parliament due to Covid which may have created problems for her in 2022.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,239

    HYUFD said:

    Almost all these seats were virtually always Labour until 2019 when they loaned Boris, note Boris not the Tories, their votes to get Brexit done and beat Corbyn. Now Boris and Corbyn have gone and Brexit has been done, no surprise they are returning to Labour.

    However while the Tories are falling back in these working class seats under Sunak, Sunak is holding up better in the upper middle class Blue Wall.

    So perhaps TSE might feel safe to vote Tory again now after voting LD since Cameron, given the average Tory voter is much posher and less common under Rishi than they were under Boris in 2019?

    Even if Rishi loses the next general election he has at least made it safe for snobs to vote Tory again!!

    I’m not voting Tory.

    I’m contemplating voting Labour.

    I’m utterly sick of the sleaze, grift, and outright corruption this government has normalised.
    Might you change your mind if we could persuade stooping Churchillian statesman and war hero Boris Johnson back into No 10?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,459
    edited January 2023
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russian response to the Ukraine tank news.
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1618564448582774784

    Tried. Tested. Retired Retried
    Time to borrow @HYUFD‘s prize toy

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/IWM-KID-772-Covenanter.jpg
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,047
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russian response to the Ukraine tank news.
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1618564448582774784

    Tried. Tested. Retired Retried
    Built in the 1950s, apparently.

    This deal has been mentioned elsewhere months ago. Someone said it wasn't anything to do with the war in Ukraine, but Russia has a massive fondness for the Great Patriotic War, and many of the T34s they use for parades and such are in terrible condition. These are going to be used as spares, or to replace/expand the parade fleet.

    It'd be like the RAF buying three Spitfires, or one Lancaster, for the BBMF.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,455

    Make no mistake. This is a comprehensive defeat and singular humiliation for Sturgeon. All that "criminals won't try to get into female spaces", all that "most marginalised people", all that "be kind and respect a self declared identity"
    That house of cards just utterly collapsed


    https://twitter.com/jebadoo2/status/1618591781410729989

    Is it though? I haven't followed this very closely, but hasn't someone (apparently) trying to abuse self-ID to get sent to a women's prison just been denied that opportunity?

    (Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but it seems to show (i) that yes, some people will try to take the piss, but (ii) that won't be permitted)
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,239

    Scott_xP said:

    I’m not voting Tory.

    I’m contemplating voting Labour.

    I’m utterly sick of the sleaze, grift, and outright corruption this government has normalised.

    Are you bored of Tory sleaze stories? Most Conservative MPs are. They’re fed up with the way their party keeps tripping over its own shoelaces, wearied of new revelations about senior figures and sums of money their constituents can’t even imagine.

    But they also hope their voters are bored. “We aren’t being shouted at on the doorstep by our own supporters, like we were in the worst days of Boris,” says one MP, wanly. “I’m not sure many of them are paying attention or care about these latest rows,” says a senior backbencher, rather hopefully.

    This is a pretty dismal situation for Conservatives to be in: hoping their voters are bored of their dysfunction or at least numbed to it.


    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/tory-sleaze-problem-govern-b1055824.html
    I suspect the seatbelt story being headline news has led to the numbing
    I thought the seat belt issue was absurd nonsense.

    The Johnson guarantee/ BBC issue should be an enormous scandal, I suspect that hasn't yet run its course. The Zahawi problem is a resigning matter but not even a patch on this latest Johnson scandal.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,858
    edited January 2023
    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,459
    Selebian said:

    Make no mistake. This is a comprehensive defeat and singular humiliation for Sturgeon. All that "criminals won't try to get into female spaces", all that "most marginalised people", all that "be kind and respect a self declared identity"
    That house of cards just utterly collapsed


    https://twitter.com/jebadoo2/status/1618591781410729989

    Is it though? I haven't followed this very closely, but hasn't someone (apparently) trying to abuse self-ID to get sent to a women's prison just been denied that opportunity?

    (Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but it seems to show (i) that yes, some people will try to take the piss, but (ii) that won't be permitted)
    1) Sturgeon said that the amendment to carry out an action was unacceptable.
    2) Sturgeon used executive powers to carry out exactly the action that was stated to be unacceptable and would never be needed anyway.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Almost all these seats were virtually always Labour until 2019 when they loaned Boris, note Boris not the Tories, their votes to get Brexit done and beat Corbyn. Now Boris and Corbyn have gone and Brexit has been done, no surprise they are returning to Labour.

    However while the Tories are falling back in these working class seats under Sunak, Sunak is holding up better in the upper middle class Blue Wall.

    So perhaps TSE might feel safe to vote Tory again now after voting LD since Cameron, given the average Tory voter is much posher and less common under Rishi than they were under Boris in 2019?

    Even if Rishi loses the next general election he has at least made it safe for snobs to vote Tory again!!

    I’m not voting Tory.

    I’m contemplating voting Labour.

    I’m utterly sick of the sleaze, grift, and outright corruption this government has normalised.
    Might you change your mind if we could persuade stooping Churchillian statesman and war hero Boris Johnson back into No 10?
    I’ll campaigning for Labour if the Tories bring back Boris Johnson.
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,144
    edited January 2023

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russian response to the Ukraine tank news.
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1618564448582774784

    Tried. Tested. Retired Retried
    Built in the 1950s, apparently.

    This deal has been mentioned elsewhere months ago. Someone said it wasn't anything to do with the war in Ukraine, but Russia has a massive fondness for the Great Patriotic War, and many of the T34s they use for parades and such are in terrible condition. These are going to be used as spares, or to replace/expand the parade fleet.

    It'd be like the RAF buying three Spitfires, or one Lancaster, for the BBMF.
    Is this all on the basis that a tank looks like a tank to Ivan Kuznetsov? ETA: Whereas most people can tell that there is a difference between a Eurofighter and a Spitfire.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,909

    Selebian said:

    Make no mistake. This is a comprehensive defeat and singular humiliation for Sturgeon. All that "criminals won't try to get into female spaces", all that "most marginalised people", all that "be kind and respect a self declared identity"
    That house of cards just utterly collapsed


    https://twitter.com/jebadoo2/status/1618591781410729989

    Is it though? I haven't followed this very closely, but hasn't someone (apparently) trying to abuse self-ID to get sent to a women's prison just been denied that opportunity?

    (Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but it seems to show (i) that yes, some people will try to take the piss, but (ii) that won't be permitted)
    1) Sturgeon said that the amendment to carry out an action was unacceptable.
    2) Sturgeon used executive powers to carry out exactly the action that was stated to be unacceptable and would never be needed anyway.
    The exception made has not been for sex offenders in general, nor for rapists in particular - just for this one specific case, which had been providing days of inconvenient headlines for the Scottish government.
  • Options
    Cookie said:

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    I see parakeets most days in suburban South Manchester.
    Five years ago, I saw my first one, and was astonished. In fact my then three year old saw it - 'parrot', she said. I didn't really believe her (although the noise it made was rather exotic) - but I looked, and yes, a parrot, or near enough. And now you see them most days. They nest in the Mersey Valley and flock in great numbers. The speed of their population growth is faintly alarming. Though we don't yet have as many here as I saw in Sefton Park in Liverpool. Bloody hundreds of them there.
    Parrots in the Midlands = canaries in the coal mines re: global warming?

    In Emerald City of Seattle, also seeing more birds from more southerly climes more often, such as hummingbirds.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,455
    edited January 2023

    Selebian said:

    Make no mistake. This is a comprehensive defeat and singular humiliation for Sturgeon. All that "criminals won't try to get into female spaces", all that "most marginalised people", all that "be kind and respect a self declared identity"
    That house of cards just utterly collapsed


    https://twitter.com/jebadoo2/status/1618591781410729989

    Is it though? I haven't followed this very closely, but hasn't someone (apparently) trying to abuse self-ID to get sent to a women's prison just been denied that opportunity?

    (Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but it seems to show (i) that yes, some people will try to take the piss, but (ii) that won't be permitted)
    1) Sturgeon said that the amendment to carry out an action was unacceptable.
    2) Sturgeon used executive powers to carry out exactly the action that was stated to be unacceptable and would never be needed anyway.
    Hmm, I can see that does look a bit embarassing.

    ETA: Pending other input disputing this version, I do see the difference (and concern) here.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,047
    edited January 2023
    mwadams said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russian response to the Ukraine tank news.
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1618564448582774784

    Tried. Tested. Retired Retried
    Built in the 1950s, apparently.

    This deal has been mentioned elsewhere months ago. Someone said it wasn't anything to do with the war in Ukraine, but Russia has a massive fondness for the Great Patriotic War, and many of the T34s they use for parades and such are in terrible condition. These are going to be used as spares, or to replace/expand the parade fleet.

    It'd be like the RAF buying three Spitfires, or one Lancaster, for the BBMF.
    Is this all on the basis that a tank looks like a tank to Ivan Kuznetsov?
    Probably; they are T34's, after all, even if later models. The BBMF's Lancaster was built right at the end of the war, and never saw combat. Both their Hurricanes were late models, and did not take part in the Battle of Britain. It's what they represent that matters to people, rather than the fact they took part in this or that battle.

    It's probably the same with these tanks.

    Incidentally, apparently the T34s were built in Czechoslovakia, so they're not even Russian in origin...
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,997
    edited January 2023

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    For any Government the reason for Brejoin is easy - it allows you to pin all the troubles the Daily Mail write about on someone who isn't the Government and lives far away (in Brussels).

    If the buck stops with you as PM, all the blame ends up with you as well - even if the thing is relatively minor.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,453

    Cookie said:

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    I see parakeets most days in suburban South Manchester.
    Five years ago, I saw my first one, and was astonished. In fact my then three year old saw it - 'parrot', she said. I didn't really believe her (although the noise it made was rather exotic) - but I looked, and yes, a parrot, or near enough. And now you see them most days. They nest in the Mersey Valley and flock in great numbers. The speed of their population growth is faintly alarming. Though we don't yet have as many here as I saw in Sefton Park in Liverpool. Bloody hundreds of them there.
    I'm a member at Chorlton Golf Club, loads seem to live there and at the neighbouring water park.
    Are you the fella who walked past my house with the golf trolley most days during lockdown?

    Yes, that's where I had in mind - in particular just by Jackson's Bridge.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,046

    Make no mistake. This is a comprehensive defeat and singular humiliation for Sturgeon. All that "criminals won't try to get into female spaces", all that "most marginalised people", all that "be kind and respect a self declared identity"
    That house of cards just utterly collapsed


    https://twitter.com/jebadoo2/status/1618591781410729989

    They carried out a new risk assessment

    Of Nippy's career...
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,459
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Make no mistake. This is a comprehensive defeat and singular humiliation for Sturgeon. All that "criminals won't try to get into female spaces", all that "most marginalised people", all that "be kind and respect a self declared identity"
    That house of cards just utterly collapsed


    https://twitter.com/jebadoo2/status/1618591781410729989

    Is it though? I haven't followed this very closely, but hasn't someone (apparently) trying to abuse self-ID to get sent to a women's prison just been denied that opportunity?

    (Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but it seems to show (i) that yes, some people will try to take the piss, but (ii) that won't be permitted)
    1) Sturgeon said that the amendment to carry out an action was unacceptable.
    2) Sturgeon used executive powers to carry out exactly the action that was stated to be unacceptable and would never be needed anyway.
    Hmm, I can see that does look a bit embarassing.
    Further, if the law hadn’t been blocked by the U.K. government, Sturgeon may not have had the power to carry out said action. @PBLawyers?
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    eek said:

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    For any Government the reason for Brejoin is easy - it allows you to pin all the troubles the Daily Mail write about on someone who isn't the Government and lives far away (in Brussels).

    If the buck stops with you as PM, all the blame ends up with you as well - even if the thing is relatively minor.
    And stopping that nonsense was one of the big reasons for voting Leave - in a democracy it's simply not good enough for a government that wants to do something unpopular to quietly get an EU directive passed and then say to the British voters "sorry, guv, I got no choice".
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    Betting Post

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/01/everything-but-epl-26-january-2023.html

    Just a couple of bets, Empoli to win at home versus Torino in Serie A at 3.35 (they've drawn away to Lazio and beaten Inter Milan recently), and Osasuna to beat Atletico Madrid in La Liga, at 3.8. The two sides are only 3 points apart so 3.8 for home win seems long.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,455
    mwadams said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russian response to the Ukraine tank news.
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1618564448582774784

    Tried. Tested. Retired Retried
    Built in the 1950s, apparently.

    This deal has been mentioned elsewhere months ago. Someone said it wasn't anything to do with the war in Ukraine, but Russia has a massive fondness for the Great Patriotic War, and many of the T34s they use for parades and such are in terrible condition. These are going to be used as spares, or to replace/expand the parade fleet.

    It'd be like the RAF buying three Spitfires, or one Lancaster, for the BBMF.
    Is this all on the basis that a tank looks like a tank to Ivan Kuznetsov? ETA: Whereas most people can tell that there is a difference between a Eurofighter and a Spitfire.
    I'll admit that, in that MoD tweet the other day, I didn't know which was the Leopard and which the Challenger (sure there were indentifying national insignia, had I bothered to look closer; someone who knows tanks would of course known which was which from a glance).
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,082
    edited January 2023

    Cookie said:

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    I see parakeets most days in suburban South Manchester.
    Five years ago, I saw my first one, and was astonished. In fact my then three year old saw it - 'parrot', she said. I didn't really believe her (although the noise it made was rather exotic) - but I looked, and yes, a parrot, or near enough. And now you see them most days. They nest in the Mersey Valley and flock in great numbers. The speed of their population growth is faintly alarming. Though we don't yet have as many here as I saw in Sefton Park in Liverpool. Bloody hundreds of them there.
    Parrots in the Midlands = canaries in the coal mines re: global warming?

    In Emerald City of Seattle, also seeing more birds from more southerly climes more often, such as hummingbirds.
    Manchester is the North, not the Midlands.

    Parakeets seem very adaptable to cold climates so it probably says more about the birds than the weather. They're also thriving in cold parts of the US:

    https://news.uchicago.edu/story/escaped-pet-parrots-are-now-naturalized-23-us-states-study-finds
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,858
    Driver said:

    eek said:

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    For any Government the reason for Brejoin is easy - it allows you to pin all the troubles the Daily Mail write about on someone who isn't the Government and lives far away (in Brussels).

    If the buck stops with you as PM, all the blame ends up with you as well - even if the thing is relatively minor.
    And stopping that nonsense was one of the big reasons for voting Leave - in a democracy it's simply not good enough for a government that wants to do something unpopular to quietly get an EU directive passed and then say to the British voters "sorry, guv, I got no choice".
    The democratic case for Brexit was basically trashed by the actions of the Conservative government from 2016 onwards.

    There has been no interest in restoring or reviving Britain’s democratic culture. Quite the reverse.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,008

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    I am a convinced European; in 1975, I was pounding the streets for the Cause. I always felt Western Europe in particular had a considerable degree of shared history and culture and made sense as an economic and political union. I have to say I was less convinced by the addition of Eastern Europe and particularly South-eastern, but I was happy to go along with it.
    I didn’t work so hard in the referendum, due to old age, although I did contribute money and stand on street corners handing out leaflets.
    And I’d vote to Rejoin.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,046
    @NewStatesman: The point is not that Sunak has stacked his cabinet with familiar faces of dubious integrity – although that may be… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618630463198724097
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,858

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    I am a convinced European; in 1975, I was pounding the streets for the Cause. I always felt Western Europe in particular had a considerable degree of shared history and culture and made sense as an economic and political union. I have to say I was less convinced by the addition of Eastern Europe and particularly South-eastern, but I was happy to go along with it.
    I didn’t work so hard in the referendum, due to old age, although I did contribute money and stand on street corners handing out leaflets.
    And I’d vote to Rejoin.
    Of course I would vote to Rejoin.

    I am not in love with the EU, but it’s not possible to wish it away, and Britain’s only opportunity to push it in the most convivial direction is from the inside.

    But I confess I don’t have a three word slogan to that effect.
  • Options
    Cookie said:

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    I see parakeets most days in suburban South Manchester.
    Five years ago, I saw my first one, and was astonished. In fact my then three year old saw it - 'parrot', she said. I didn't really believe her (although the noise it made was rather exotic) - but I looked, and yes, a parrot, or near enough. And now you see them most days. They nest in the Mersey Valley and flock in great numbers. The speed of their population growth is faintly alarming. Though we don't yet have as many here as I saw in Sefton Park in Liverpool. Bloody hundreds of them there.
    There was a pirch invasion by parakeets at Leyton Orient recently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnrOggdSoi8
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Driver said:

    eek said:

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    For any Government the reason for Brejoin is easy - it allows you to pin all the troubles the Daily Mail write about on someone who isn't the Government and lives far away (in Brussels).

    If the buck stops with you as PM, all the blame ends up with you as well - even if the thing is relatively minor.
    And stopping that nonsense was one of the big reasons for voting Leave - in a democracy it's simply not good enough for a government that wants to do something unpopular to quietly get an EU directive passed and then say to the British voters "sorry, guv, I got no choice".
    The democratic case for Brexit was basically trashed by the actions of the Conservative government from 2016 onwards.

    There has been no interest in restoring or reviving Britain’s democratic culture. Quite the reverse.
    As may be. Certainly the actions of the opposition between 2016-19 didn't help either. But maybe Sir Keir will surprise us when he gets power.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,046

    But I confess I don’t have a three word slogan to that effect.

    There will come a point when "Take Back Control" is an effective anti-Brexit campaign slogan
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,453

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    You’re right. It’ll come.

    I was speaking to my niece and her fella, both born in 2000, at Xmas when they came to visit from Bristol. They’re both fucking livid that they can’t afford a house and, a close second, livid at Brexit. Pissed off they were too young to vote. Feel they’ve been betrayed by the Boomers on both issues. The heart thing seems ingrained with them. They want to be able to afford a house and they want freedom of movement, to be part of something bigger, something better than this right-wing shithole we’ve descended to. They’re not rich, or ‘woke’, just normal kids who feel betrayed.

    I hope they’re representative of their age group.
    I'd say freedom of movement across Europe is somewhat inimical to being able to afford a house in the UK.
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    Scott_xP said:

    But I confess I don’t have a three word slogan to that effect.

    There will come a point when "Take Back Control" is an effective anti-Brexit campaign slogan
    Rejoin won't win until its adovcates get themselves out of the "anti" mindset. This is why you lost last time.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,239
    edited January 2023

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    No one really though the EU was a fantastic fault -free organisation. And the bits I really liked, such as FoM where the bits everyone else hated.

    The EU's single USP was membership is less sub optimal, and by a country mile, than non membership.

    Not that I advocate rejoin. That ship sailed when Boris Johnson " done Brexit".
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,453

    Cookie said:

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    I see parakeets most days in suburban South Manchester.
    Five years ago, I saw my first one, and was astonished. In fact my then three year old saw it - 'parrot', she said. I didn't really believe her (although the noise it made was rather exotic) - but I looked, and yes, a parrot, or near enough. And now you see them most days. They nest in the Mersey Valley and flock in great numbers. The speed of their population growth is faintly alarming. Though we don't yet have as many here as I saw in Sefton Park in Liverpool. Bloody hundreds of them there.
    Parrots in the Midlands = canaries in the coal mines re: global warming?

    In Emerald City of Seattle, also seeing more birds from more southerly climes more often, such as hummingbirds.
    How have the hummingbirds got there?
    The parakeets are descended from pets who have escaped/been released. It's probably an urban myth to suppose that it was all down to Jimi Hendrix, but it's fun nonetheless.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,082

    Driver said:

    eek said:

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    For any Government the reason for Brejoin is easy - it allows you to pin all the troubles the Daily Mail write about on someone who isn't the Government and lives far away (in Brussels).

    If the buck stops with you as PM, all the blame ends up with you as well - even if the thing is relatively minor.
    And stopping that nonsense was one of the big reasons for voting Leave - in a democracy it's simply not good enough for a government that wants to do something unpopular to quietly get an EU directive passed and then say to the British voters "sorry, guv, I got no choice".
    The democratic case for Brexit was basically trashed by the actions of the Conservative government from 2016 onwards.

    There has been no interest in restoring or reviving Britain’s democratic culture. Quite the reverse.
    There's been an acceleration of political debate and we've been through four prime ministers, so arguably a revival of Britain’s democratic culture is precisely what happened. That's a separate question from whether we've found the right answers.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,453

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    I am a convinced European; in 1975, I was pounding the streets for the Cause. I always felt Western Europe in particular had a considerable degree of shared history and culture and made sense as an economic and political union. I have to say I was less convinced by the addition of Eastern Europe and particularly South-eastern, but I was happy to go along with it.
    I didn’t work so hard in the referendum, due to old age, although I did contribute money and stand on street corners handing out leaflets.
    And I’d vote to Rejoin.
    Of course I would vote to Rejoin.

    I am not in love with the EU, but it’s not possible to wish it away, and Britain’s only opportunity to push it in the most convivial direction is from the inside.

    But I confess I don’t have a three word slogan to that effect.
    We'd been trying that for 40 years without success
    Arguably Britain had had some minor successes in seeing it not pushed too far in the wrong direction. But 'Join the EU and we can stop it becoming a Napoleonic superstate quite so fast' doesn't really cut the mustard as a compelling argument, whether you can make a three word slogan from it or not.
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,455

    Driver said:

    eek said:

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    For any Government the reason for Brejoin is easy - it allows you to pin all the troubles the Daily Mail write about on someone who isn't the Government and lives far away (in Brussels).

    If the buck stops with you as PM, all the blame ends up with you as well - even if the thing is relatively minor.
    And stopping that nonsense was one of the big reasons for voting Leave - in a democracy it's simply not good enough for a government that wants to do something unpopular to quietly get an EU directive passed and then say to the British voters "sorry, guv, I got no choice".
    The democratic case for Brexit was basically trashed by the actions of the Conservative government from 2016 onwards.

    There has been no interest in restoring or reviving Britain’s democratic culture. Quite the reverse.
    There's been an acceleration of political debate and we've been through four prime ministers, so arguably a revival of Britain’s democratic culture is precisely what happened. That's a separate question from whether we've found the right answers.
    I'm not even sure we've found the right questions yet.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,804
    Cookie said:

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    You’re right. It’ll come.

    I was speaking to my niece and her fella, both born in 2000, at Xmas when they came to visit from Bristol. They’re both fucking livid that they can’t afford a house and, a close second, livid at Brexit. Pissed off they were too young to vote. Feel they’ve been betrayed by the Boomers on both issues. The heart thing seems ingrained with them. They want to be able to afford a house and they want freedom of movement, to be part of something bigger, something better than this right-wing shithole we’ve descended to. They’re not rich, or ‘woke’, just normal kids who feel betrayed.

    I hope they’re representative of their age group.
    I'd say freedom of movement across Europe is somewhat inimical to being able to afford a house in the UK.
    Other way round, in part. Try finding builders, roofers, plumbers to maintain existing stock let alone build new stock.
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    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    I don’t think Britain will Brejoin, although I concede it is likelier than I ever thought it might be.

    As @Driver notes, nobody has really made the case for why the EU is better (apart from trade). There needs to be a hearts, not just minds, case.

    No one really though the EU was a fantastic fault -free organisation. And the bits I really liked, such as FoM where the bits everyone else hated.

    The EU's single USP was membership is less sub optimal, and by a country mile, than non membership.

    Not that I advocate rejoin. That ship sailed when Boris Johnson " done Brexit".
    And that, of course, isn't a USP. If one side is saying "this is bad but that's worse" and the other side is saying "this is good", there's only one winner.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,804
    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    But I confess I don’t have a three word slogan to that effect.

    There will come a point when "Take Back Control" is an effective anti-Brexit campaign slogan
    Rejoin won't win until its adovcates get themselves out of the "anti" mindset. This is why you lost last time.
    It's only anti from your point of view, mind. From my p of v, it's positive to think about being in Europe.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    The case for EU membership is that it ensures that the British government will pursue more left wing policies than would be the case outside the EU.

    That’s why left-leaning groups tend to support membership.

    But, that may not always be the case.
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    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    I see parakeets most days in suburban South Manchester.
    Five years ago, I saw my first one, and was astonished. In fact my then three year old saw it - 'parrot', she said. I didn't really believe her (although the noise it made was rather exotic) - but I looked, and yes, a parrot, or near enough. And now you see them most days. They nest in the Mersey Valley and flock in great numbers. The speed of their population growth is faintly alarming. Though we don't yet have as many here as I saw in Sefton Park in Liverpool. Bloody hundreds of them there.
    Parrots in the Midlands = canaries in the coal mines re: global warming?

    In Emerald City of Seattle, also seeing more birds from more southerly climes more often, such as hummingbirds.
    How have the hummingbirds got there?
    The parakeets are descended from pets who have escaped/been released. It's probably an urban myth to suppose that it was all down to Jimi Hendrix, but it's fun nonetheless.
    I occasionally seen the flock of parakeets that inhabits Hampstead Heath. They are definitely the descendants of escaped pets but I doubt JH was involved. They are quite spectacular in flight.

    You can tell they are not indiginous but they seem to co-exist hppily enough with the locals.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,239
    edited January 2023

    Cookie said:

    Mrs BJ claims to have seen a parakeet fly over our house this morning.

    I asked her how she knew it was a parakeet

    She told me that at first she thought it could have been Donald Trump as they look the same have a similar IQ.

    She realised it wasn't though as it was tweeting

    This is why I married Mrs BJ

    I see parakeets most days in suburban South Manchester.
    Five years ago, I saw my first one, and was astonished. In fact my then three year old saw it - 'parrot', she said. I didn't really believe her (although the noise it made was rather exotic) - but I looked, and yes, a parrot, or near enough. And now you see them most days. They nest in the Mersey Valley and flock in great numbers. The speed of their population growth is faintly alarming. Though we don't yet have as many here as I saw in Sefton Park in Liverpool. Bloody hundreds of them there.
    There was a pirch invasion by parakeets at Leyton Orient recently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnrOggdSoi8
    Not as impressive as a swan beating ten bells out of a lion at an FA cup match at the Vetch in 1998.

    Who'd have thought it a swan and a lion?
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