Now we have polling on who’s been the “PM of the Year” – politicalbetting.com

Dura_Ace said:

ydoethur said:

Dura_Ace said:

kle4 said:

Well if its age then the alternative candidate was even less mature to them.

Truss had 12 years as an MP and 8 years in senior posts. She wasnt widely hated. On paper she looked ok.

Lavrov. It was obvious after the Lavrov incident that she was too lackwitted and unstable for high office.

My late mother couldn't read maps.

But there's not reading maps and not reading maps.

The first duty of a foreign secretary is to have some idea of where the borders of the country in question are.

Doesn't detract from the fact Lavrov's a lightweight dick who makes Acland-Hood look competent and Cummings look honest, but it was just extraordinary Truss hadn't even read a briefing note.

Not knowing is one thing but she didn't have the wit to realise she didn't know and deflect the question. Instead she just doubled down.

Verulamius said:

.

kle4 said:

DavidL said:

The whole Truss episode still seems like a surreal dream. People obviously point to the KamiKwasi budget but she really did nothing in her brief period of power to suggest that she was even close to being up to the job.

Which raises very serious question marks about the fitness of the Conservative party membership to be involved in determining who is our PM. The same membership, of course, who thought IDS was a good idea for, well, anything really. It's not as if Labour's membership is any better. Repeatedly voting for Corbyn when almost the entire Parliamentary party were fully aware that he was totally unsuited to the role was equally eccentric.

I think both parties need to have a serious think and discussion about this. Democracy only works when the electorate is both informed and sane. The membership of our major parties are neither. So how do we choose?

It's not hard. Members can choose their local MP. MPs can choose their leader. They are the only electorate that has a chance of being meaningfully informed, and we've seen what happens when revolutionary radicals like Corbyn or Jscob Rees-Mogg then cause chaos by claiming MPs should have no say because members have spoken

It is the MPs fault. The members can only vote for whomever is put forward by the MPs.

Cookie said:

ydoethur said:

Cookie said:

HYUFD said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. HYUFD, I may vote for the Conservatives with Sunak as leader. If they bring back Boris Johnson as PM, I will not be.

Maybe but that is not the norm. Before Boris was ousted the Conservatives were polling about 30 to 35%, under Truss they were polling about 20 to 25%, now under Sunak they are polling about 25 to 30%. So overall still worse than Boris was.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary

You are about the only PBer on here not voting Tory under Boris and telling the Tories to get rid of Boris now voting Tory under Sunak

I'm in Morris's camp too.

I suppose I am, in the sense I can just about imagine myself voting for a party led by Sunak, although I think it unlikely I will in practice.

If Johnson returns I'd vote Labour even if they were led by Richard Burgon or Zarah Sultana.

I wouldn't go that far! In 2019 I voted Tory only because Corbyn. The same logic would apply.

Heathener said:

Even now Leon is trying to jemmy this thread off its rollers

Mexicanpete said:

Heathener said:

Even now Leon is trying to jemmy this thread off its rollers

Fortunately almost everyone has tumbled his game and are ignoring his posts.

ydoethur said:

Dura_Ace said:

kle4 said:

Well if its age then the alternative candidate was even less mature to them.

Truss had 12 years as an MP and 8 years in senior posts. She wasnt widely hated. On paper she looked ok.

Lavrov. It was obvious after the Lavrov incident that she was too lackwitted and unstable for high office.

My late mother couldn't read maps.

But there's not reading maps and not reading maps.

The first duty of a foreign secretary is to have some idea of where the borders of the country in question are.

Doesn't detract from the fact Lavrov's a lightweight dick who makes Acland-Hood look competent and Cummings look honest, but it was just extraordinary Truss hadn't even read a briefing note.

Heathener said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:

Heathener said:

Even now Leon is trying to jemmy this thread off its rollers

Fortunately almost everyone has tumbled his game and are ignoring his posts.

What are you talking about?! PB is a long meandering conversation, 24/7. Themes ebb and flow. New subjects come and go. It’s not a seminar with a topic

The protean and multiple nature of the conversation on here is one of its joys

I don't think he or I, or others, are referring to that.

We're speaking about your constant desire to tangentialise threads so that people can focus on you and your ego. You do it the whole time because you love to be the centre of attention.

Cookie said:

Heathener said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:

Heathener said:

Even now Leon is trying to jemmy this thread off its rollers

Fortunately almost everyone has tumbled his game and are ignoring his posts.

What are you talking about?! PB is a long meandering conversation, 24/7. Themes ebb and flow. New subjects come and go. It’s not a seminar with a topic

The protean and multiple nature of the conversation on here is one of its joys

I don't think he or I, or others, are referring to that.

We're speaking about your constant desire to tangentialise threads so that people can focus on you and your ego. You do it the whole time because you love to be the centre of attention.

If this is your theory, you aren't doing much to stop it happening.
AFAICS, Leon was chatting tangentially and harmlessly and largely to himelself to himself about AI. He really wasn't the centre of attention until you decided to launch a pittle sub-thread about him. And now he is.

Mexicanpete said:

Heathener said:

Even now Leon is trying to jemmy this thread off its rollers

Fortunately almost everyone has tumbled his game and are ignoring his posts.

Leon said:

You can see why creative types are simultaneously exhilarated by, and terrified of, ChatGPT and, soon, GPT4

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Stuartinromford said:

kle4 said:

Carnyx said:

ping said:

Regardless of her crazy politics/strategic ineptitude, the thing that really grated with me was her personality.

It was almost child-like, the way she turned on her parents/teachers and interpreted the behaviour of that air hostess, in her anecdotes during the leadership campaign.

You can’t expect to be taken seriously as a grown up politician if you try to weaponise your irrational teenage angst.

She’s barely mature enough to be an MP, let alone hold serious political power.

What were the Tory members thinking?

Everyone must seem a teenager from their ancient point of view. So Ms Truss wouldn't stand out.

Well if its age then the alternative candidate was even less mature to them.

Truss had 12 years as an MP and 8 years in senior posts. She wasnt widely hated. On paper she looked ok.

Even her pandering in the leadership campaign is what you'd expect. Her problem wasnt lack of experience it was that she didn't prepare her MPs for her plans, and had zero answers for the press or public either when there was a bad reaction. Her problem was laziness.

In some ways, she was the Conservative echo of Corbyn. Both of them decided what they thought about everything at the age of about fourteen and saw it as a strength that they never deviated from that.

Except Corbyn was actually a socialist. Truss wasn't even a conservative really but a libertarian

Except she was elected by MPs and members of the "Conservative" Party.

So what, she was still an ex LD libertarian who managed to fool some Tories for a few months before they forced her out anyway

Heathener said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

HYUFD said:

Stuartinromford said:

kle4 said:

Carnyx said:

ping said:

Regardless of her crazy politics/strategic ineptitude, the thing that really grated with me was her personality.

It was almost child-like, the way she turned on her parents/teachers and interpreted the behaviour of that air hostess, in her anecdotes during the leadership campaign.

You can’t expect to be taken seriously as a grown up politician if you try to weaponise your irrational teenage angst.

She’s barely mature enough to be an MP, let alone hold serious political power.

What were the Tory members thinking?

Everyone must seem a teenager from their ancient point of view. So Ms Truss wouldn't stand out.

Well if its age then the alternative candidate was even less mature to them.

Truss had 12 years as an MP and 8 years in senior posts. She wasnt widely hated. On paper she looked ok.

Even her pandering in the leadership campaign is what you'd expect. Her problem wasnt lack of experience it was that she didn't prepare her MPs for her plans, and had zero answers for the press or public either when there was a bad reaction. Her problem was laziness.

In some ways, she was the Conservative echo of Corbyn. Both of them decided what they thought about everything at the age of about fourteen and saw it as a strength that they never deviated from that.

Except Corbyn was actually a socialist. Truss wasn't even a conservative really but a libertarian

Let's not be too politically polite about her. Thatcher was not a conservative really but a libertarian and I don't want to associate Liz Truss with Margaret Thatcher.

The best adjective for Truss is that she was an incompetent.

No Thatcher was genuinely a Conservative. A social conservative PM who brought in section 28 and a monarchist despite occasional disagreements with the Queen.

A Methodist by upbringing too. Maybe not a traditional Tory but a conservative nonetheless with elements of Gladstone Liberalism.

You're right about her moral rigidity and conservatism on social, religious, and personal behaviour.

But in most other ways she was far from a conservative. She was a massive advocate of libertarian economics: Martin Friedman and all that. She took a cudgel to institutions in a way that no C conservative would ever do.

And I really don't think calling her a monarchist washes. She had respect HMQ but she held the commonwealth in contempt, and much of the institutions of the royal family and aristocracy with it.

She loathed the kind of the institutional feudalism, entitlement, and noblesse oblige that surrounded her, including in her own party. She was utterly destructive and disdainful of institutions that had been in place for decades. A massive wrecking ball on the fabric of this country. Her fans thank her for that, but that isn't the point.

Many around her thought she was anything but a C conservative. They were right.

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Anyone with a cough or cold should avoid celebrating Christmas with their grandparents to protect them from a surge in winter viruses, health officials have said.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-flu-cases-uk-rise-hospitals-covid-qc8vpmp8b (£££)

noneoftheabove said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Anyone with a cough or cold should avoid celebrating Christmas with their grandparents to protect them from a surge in winter viruses, health officials have said.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-flu-cases-uk-rise-hospitals-covid-qc8vpmp8b (£££)

Behind a paywall so have health officials said that, or journalists inferred that from what health officials have actually said to create a catchy headline?

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

RobD said:

noneoftheabove said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Anyone with a cough or cold should avoid celebrating Christmas with their grandparents to protect them from a surge in winter viruses, health officials have said.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-flu-cases-uk-rise-hospitals-covid-qc8vpmp8b (£££)

Behind a paywall so have health officials said that, or journalists inferred that from what health officials have actually said to create a catchy headline?

If it’s not in quotation marks it’s highly unlikely they actually said it.

RobD said:

noneoftheabove said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Anyone with a cough or cold should avoid celebrating Christmas with their grandparents to protect them from a surge in winter viruses, health officials have said.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-flu-cases-uk-rise-hospitals-covid-qc8vpmp8b (£££)

Behind a paywall so have health officials said that, or journalists inferred that from what health officials have actually said to create a catchy headline?

If it’s not in quotation marks it’s highly unlikely they actually said it.

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

Not true. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-new-zealand-deal-standard-greener-trade/

checklist said:

RobD said:

noneoftheabove said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Anyone with a cough or cold should avoid celebrating Christmas with their grandparents to protect them from a surge in winter viruses, health officials have said.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-flu-cases-uk-rise-hospitals-covid-qc8vpmp8b (£££)

Behind a paywall so have health officials said that, or journalists inferred that from what health officials have actually said to create a catchy headline?

If it’s not in quotation marks it’s highly unlikely they actually said it.

"The UK Health Security Agency has urged anyone with symptoms to stay at home over Christmas, advising them to wear a mask in enclosed spaces, such as trains or supermarkets. “It is important to avoid contact with other people if you are unwell to help stop infections spreading over the Christmas and new year period,’’ the agency said."

Stuartinromford said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

Not true. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-new-zealand-deal-standard-greener-trade/

More importantly, to adapt Father Ted, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand are both small and far away.

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

You do realise that having a trade deal is not necessarily a good thing if it is a bad deal and according to many, including Conservatives (eg George Eustice) our trade deal with Australia is useless. No worse than useless as it is worse than no deal at all.

So fine to be in the single market and a customs union with the EU but not fine to have a trade deal with Australia, who culturally we probably have more in common with than any other nation on earth except New Zealand? Even when we now have a trade deal with the EU too anyway

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

You do realise that having a trade deal is not necessarily a good thing if it is a bad deal and according to many, including Conservatives (eg George Eustice) our trade deal with Australia is useless. No worse than useless as it is worse than no deal at all.

So fine to be in the single market and a customs union with the EU but not fine to have a trade deal with Australia, who culturally we probably have more in common with than any other nation on earth except New Zealand? Even when we now have a trade deal with the EU too anyway

It is absolutely fine to have a trade deal with anyone. What is not fine is to have a crap one as per most people who understand this stuff including many Tories.

Carnyx said:

Stuartinromford said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

Not true. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-new-zealand-deal-standard-greener-trade/

More importantly, to adapt Father Ted, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand are both small and far away.

Quite. Remember the argument on PB - one of us argued it was more efficient to import turnips or whatever it was from Australia than to grow our own or get then from the EU.

The constant harping on "cultural" identity is also suspicious.

noneoftheabove said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Anyone with a cough or cold should avoid celebrating Christmas with their grandparents to protect them from a surge in winter viruses, health officials have said.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-flu-cases-uk-rise-hospitals-covid-qc8vpmp8b (£££)

Behind a paywall so have health officials said that, or journalists inferred that from what health officials have actually said to create a catchy headline?

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

Stuartinromford said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

Not true. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-new-zealand-deal-standard-greener-trade/

More importantly, to adapt Father Ted, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand are both small and far away.

Quite. Remember the argument on PB - one of us argued it was more efficient to import turnips or whatever it was from Australia than to grow our own or get then from the EU.

The constant harping on "cultural" identity is also suspicious.

So fine to flood UK markets with CAP funded EU agricultural products and EU cars competing with UK producers
but not a few Australian products?

Fine to allow UK exporters easier access to the EU but not Australian market?

Most Australians are still of British Isles origin and Australia remains the top destination for emigration for emigrants from the UK

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

Stuartinromford said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

Not true. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-new-zealand-deal-standard-greener-trade/

More importantly, to adapt Father Ted, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand are both small and far away.

Quite. Remember the argument on PB - one of us argued it was more efficient to import turnips or whatever it was from Australia than to grow our own or get then from the EU.

The constant harping on "cultural" identity is also suspicious.

So fine to flood UK markets with CAP funded EU agricultural products and EU cars competing with UK producers
but not a few Australian products?

Fine to allow UK exporters easier access to the EU but not Australian market?

Most Australians are still of British Isles origin and Australia remains the top destination for emigration for emigrants from the UK

You really don't get trade deals do you?

There is no one sided flooding the market unless you do a bad deal. The point of a good trade deal is to improve trade for both sides for mutual benefit.

So in idiot language:

Good trade deals are good
Bad trade deals are bad

We had a very, very very good trade deal with the EU when we were in the EU, we now have a much worse trade deal

We had no trade deal with Australia. We now have a trade deal that is worse than no trade deal according to many people who understand these things, including many Tories.

How do you not get this?

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

Stuartinromford said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

Not true. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-new-zealand-deal-standard-greener-trade/

More importantly, to adapt Father Ted, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand are both small and far away.

Quite. Remember the argument on PB - one of us argued it was more efficient to import turnips or whatever it was from Australia than to grow our own or get then from the EU.

The constant harping on "cultural" identity is also suspicious.

So fine to flood UK markets with CAP funded EU agricultural products and EU cars competing with UK producers
but not a few Australian products?

Fine to allow UK exporters easier access to the EU but not Australian market?

Most Australians are still of British Isles origin and Australia remains the top destination for emigration for emigrants from the UK

You really don't get trade deals do you?

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

Stuartinromford said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

Not true. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-new-zealand-deal-standard-greener-trade/

More importantly, to adapt Father Ted, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand are both small and far away.

Quite. Remember the argument on PB - one of us argued it was more efficient to import turnips or whatever it was from Australia than to grow our own or get then from the EU.

The constant harping on "cultural" identity is also suspicious.

So fine to flood UK markets with CAP funded EU agricultural products and EU cars competing with UK producers
but not a few Australian products?

Fine to allow UK exporters easier access to the EU but not Australian market?

Most Australians are still of British Isles origin and Australia remains the top destination for emigration for emigrants from the UK

Doesn't matter - flooding the UK market with Australian produce thanks to a crap deal is just as stupid, and far worse from a food security point of view.

The percentage of CAP subsidised EU food and fish we flooded our markets with and British farmers had to compete with was far more in the single market than there will ever be from Australian farm produce imported on the same terms as the trade deal we now have with the EU.

Plus of course British exporters now get easier access to the Australian market as they have to the EU market

SandyRentool said:

I'll follow the advice and not visit my grandparents on Christmas Day.

After all, a Garden of Remembrance isn't especially festive.

Leon said:

You can see why creative types are simultaneously exhilarated by, and terrified of, ChatGPT and, soon, GPT4

Stuartinromford said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

Stuartinromford said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

Not true. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-new-zealand-deal-standard-greener-trade/

More importantly, to adapt Father Ted, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand are both small and far away.

Quite. Remember the argument on PB - one of us argued it was more efficient to import turnips or whatever it was from Australia than to grow our own or get then from the EU.

The constant harping on "cultural" identity is also suspicious.

So fine to flood UK markets with CAP funded EU agricultural products and EU cars competing with UK producers
but not a few Australian products?

Fine to allow UK exporters easier access to the EU but not Australian market?

Most Australians are still of British Isles origin and Australia remains the top destination for emigration for emigrants from the UK

Doesn't matter - flooding the UK market with Australian produce thanks to a crap deal is just as stupid, and far worse from a food security point of view.

The percentage of CAP subsidised EU food and fish we flooded our markets with and British farmers had to compete with was far more in the single market than there will ever be from Australian farm produce imported on the same terms as the trade deal we now have with the EU.

Plus of course British exporters now get easier access to the Australian market as they have to the EU market

But short of digging a tunnel through the centre of the Earth (travel time: 42 minutes), there's a limit to how much fresh food it is sensible to send between the UK and Australia.

If you want to make an argument that Brexit leaves Britain poorer but prouder and happier, fair enough.

But the idea that swapping a single market including our immediate neighbours for tariff reductions across the globe is for the birds.

As we're gradually seeing.

williamglenn said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

Stuartinromford said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

Not true. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-new-zealand-deal-standard-greener-trade/

More importantly, to adapt Father Ted, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand are both small and far away.

Quite. Remember the argument on PB - one of us argued it was more efficient to import turnips or whatever it was from Australia than to grow our own or get then from the EU.

The constant harping on "cultural" identity is also suspicious.

So fine to flood UK markets with CAP funded EU agricultural products and EU cars competing with UK producers
but not a few Australian products?

Fine to allow UK exporters easier access to the EU but not Australian market?

Most Australians are still of British Isles origin and Australia remains the top destination for emigration for emigrants from the UK

You really don't get trade deals do you?

There is no one sided flooding the market unless you do a bad deal. The point of a good trade deal is to improve trade for both sides for mutual benefit.

So in idiot language:

Good trade deals are good
Bad trade deals are bad

We had a very, very very good trade deal with the EU when we were in the EU, we now have a much worse trade deal

We had no trade deal with Australia. We now have a trade deal that is worse than no trade deal according to many people who understand these things, including many Tories.

How do you not get this?

Any trade has two sides: a purchaser and a supplier, so it's not as simple as that.

Indeed if you want to argue that a deal is bad if there is an imbalance, then you would have to argue that our EU membership was a bad deal from a trade perspective because it led to a massive trade deficit.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Eagles, and yet the setting is Christmas. Hence the Christmas party, Christmas songs, Santa hat, and the famous line "Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

Stuartinromford said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

Not true. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-new-zealand-deal-standard-greener-trade/

More importantly, to adapt Father Ted, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand are both small and far away.

Quite. Remember the argument on PB - one of us argued it was more efficient to import turnips or whatever it was from Australia than to grow our own or get then from the EU.

The constant harping on "cultural" identity is also suspicious.

So fine to flood UK markets with CAP funded EU agricultural products and EU cars competing with UK producers
but not a few Australian products?

Fine to allow UK exporters easier access to the EU but not Australian market?

Most Australians are still of British Isles origin and Australia remains the top destination for emigration for emigrants from the UK

You really don't get trade deals do you?

There is no one sided flooding the market unless you do a bad deal. The point of a good trade deal is to improve trade for both sides for mutual benefit.

So in idiot language:

Good trade deals are good
Bad trade deals are bad

We had a very, very very good trade deal with the EU when we were in the EU, we now have a much worse trade deal

We had no trade deal with Australia. We now have a trade deal that is worse than no trade deal according to many people who understand these things, including many Tories.

How do you not get this?

squareroot2 said:

World Cup Winner,1966 England and Fulham right back has died aged 83. RiP.

Cicero said:

Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

Cicero said:

Just back in the UK for a few days.
SNIP

Stuartinromford said:

MaxPB said:

Stuartinromford said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

Stuartinromford said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

"I think that that is a bit unfair on Liz Truss"

No, it really isn't.

It's only unfair personally but she should never have self-promoted for a job that was far beyond her capabilities.

She managed Foreign Secretary fine and got lots of trade deals post Brexit before that.

It was her mad policies that did for her and crashed the markets, not that she was thick or incompetent

You mean those trade deals that have been thoroughly discredited as being useless and one sided (against ourselves).

Plenty of opportunities for British exporters to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore for example with whom we did not have trade deals in the EU

We did. As part of the EU.

Not with Australia and New Zealand. There is still no EU trade deal completed with them.

Even the Singapore trade deal was only agreed by the EU in 2018, after the UK Brexit vote

Not true. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-new-zealand-deal-standard-greener-trade/

More importantly, to adapt Father Ted, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand are both small and far away.

Quite. Remember the argument on PB - one of us argued it was more efficient to import turnips or whatever it was from Australia than to grow our own or get then from the EU.

The constant harping on "cultural" identity is also suspicious.

So fine to flood UK markets with CAP funded EU agricultural products and EU cars competing with UK producers
but not a few Australian products?

Fine to allow UK exporters easier access to the EU but not Australian market?

Most Australians are still of British Isles origin and Australia remains the top destination for emigration for emigrants from the UK

Doesn't matter - flooding the UK market with Australian produce thanks to a crap deal is just as stupid, and far worse from a food security point of view.

The percentage of CAP subsidised EU food and fish we flooded our markets with and British farmers had to compete with was far more in the single market than there will ever be from Australian farm produce imported on the same terms as the trade deal we now have with the EU.

Plus of course British exporters now get easier access to the Australian market as they have to the EU market

But short of digging a tunnel through the centre of the Earth (travel time: 42 minutes), there's a limit to how much fresh food it is sensible to send between the UK and Australia.

If you want to make an argument that Brexit leaves Britain poorer but prouder and happier, fair enough.

But the idea that swapping a single market including our immediate neighbours for tariff reductions across the globe is for the birds.

As we're gradually seeing.

Point of pedantry, you can't travel through the centre of the earth due to gravitational issues.

I'm intrigued. It's a fairly standard first year Uni physics question. And by symmetry it feels like it ought to work; falling in energy transfers gravitational to kinetic so you end up with just enough kinetic energy to overcome gravity enough to come to rest at the other portal.

Air resistance is a bit of a bugger, but I'm a physicist- ignoring air resistance is pretty much mandatory.

Is there something I've been missing?

TheScreamingEagles said:

Foxy said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

LOL.

What are the odds of Truss featuring in the panel?

Truss's problem wasn't being too ambitious politically. It was being as mad as a box of frogs.

If you compare and contrast the hard work put in by Thatcher and Cameron before they became PM, Truss thought it was easy.

Truss also seemed to forget that Thatcher put up taxes first to stabilise the economy/finances then was in a position to cut taxes later on.

Being PM isn't easy.