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The MidTerms are over – now for WH2024 – politicalbetting.com

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    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Seeing as we are talking about the Dam Busters how do we feel about Douglas Bader and Reach for the Sky.

    A war hero, a propaganda gift, admired by the Germans as a feared fighter pilot and an excellent film as well which makes you want to salute him. However the man was very unpleasant and hated by nearly everyone who knew him. He himself was very aware the film was a completely inaccurate description of him as a man.

    But a film of its time.

    Many of the people you need to win a war are very unpleasant people to deal with.

    “Sailor” Malan comes to mind.

    Guy Gibson was no barrel of laughs, either.
    Funnily enough I was going to post the same. Brave, simplistic, cut through the crap, ruthless, etc. Bader was obviously very patriotic and as we were at war with Germany he was going to fight for our victory over them, even though his views were probably more in line with the opponents. It is also interesting that the only people who seemed to have not hated him were a German ace who befriended him and junior officers in Colditz for his goon bating. He was hated by both the more senior officers and the orderlies for his arrogance, rudeness and his messing up of plans because of his antics.
    Been interesting to see the news this week that the family of Paddy Mayne have complained about his portrayal in the BBC Rogue Heroes series. Every account I have ever read of him including those by the people who served alongside him in the SAS and knew his character have portrayed him as incredibly, often foolishly, brave, borderline psychotic, and someone you definitely didn't want to get on the wrong side of. I understand that the family may not like that portrayal but it looks to be pretty accurate to me.
    Yes I have been reading up on all the main characters, believing the portrayal in the series can't be real, but most are. I still can't believe he was that wild though. I note he had won the DSO with 3 bars, which I assume is a record and there was outrage he wasn't awarded the VC.

    And again for all 3 leaders the ideal type you want in those situations, whereas me, I would be a ditherer and a coward.
    If you are mad, are you actually being brave?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    What they are worth would be determined by more performance related pay like the top end of the private sector ie those who get the best exam results do the most extra curricular activities etc get paid most.

    Those who get poor exam results and can't control their classes and leave straight after the bell every day get payouts or dismissed.

    Teachers unions oppose that however
    We already have that, you imbecile. And we oppose extending it further because measuring 'performance' isn't as easy as it is for, say, an archivist. Too many factors come into play. For example, there might be somebody who can't deal with facts trying to do a history exam and getting everything wrong.

    Anyway, you have never worked in a school and you have no idea about disciplining of staff. I have, and worked as a union rep, and you're simply lying. You're essentially parroting the line of Chris Woodhead. Which is ironic as he actually was dismissed as a teacher from two schools for his abysmal performance (Newent and Gordano, in case you were wondering) before being appointed as first a lecturer at Oxford and then head of OFSTED due to his political connections.
    No you don't, there is no real performance related pay in education which is still largely based on tenure and time served not performance. If there was top teachers would be on £50k plus even if not in a leadership role, poor teachers on £20k less or out the door.

    So don't keep whinging about pay
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006

    Whilst we're talking about war myths, there is a big glaring one: and that is Bletchley Park and the Enigma code.

    Whilst breaking the Enigma Code was massively useful, perhaps more useful was the breaking of the Lorenz Cipher, with which Turing was not greatly involved. Bill Tutte and probably Tommy Flowers deserve to be as widely recognised as Turing.

    Incidentally, another mistake (which I have propagated in the past) is that Colossus was designed to break Enigma. It was not. It was designed to break *part* of the Lorenz cipher.

    (Lorenz was the high-level cipher used by the German military, including messages from Hitler himself. Breaking it allowed the Allies to know German strategies. Enigma was much more tactical in scope.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Lorenz_cipher

    The BBC did a good Horizon on Tutte and Lorenz but it does not seem to be on iplayer at the moment. Jerry Roberts' 2017 book Lorenz is worth adding to your letter to Father Christmas, if you've not read it.
    Got it and read it, thanks. It's an excellent book, although it does repeat itself a little in places. It's quite amazing that the Lorenz breaking was not declassified until relatively recently.

    I can't help but feel the secrecy about a lot of this stuff post-war hurt a lot of careers and commerce.
    The secret was because we (and the Americans) were doing a brisk business in persuading countries to buy encryption machines with certain.. features

    “These are awesome. Unbreakable. Based on stuff the Germans used in the war. Frustrated us no end…..”
    In his book, Jerry Roberts says that one of the senior Bletchley Park people went to Germany immediately after the war, and was shown a Lorenz machine. He said something like: "My God, there's no way we could have broken that!"

    Despite well knowing they had been breaking it for years.
    I got taught chess by (Sir) John Herivel. He was very polite about my questions and didn’t answer any of them.
  • Options

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think there may be a General Election next year.

    This runs counter to what many on here will say and I've seen "two years" touted regularly of late.

    I don't believe 2024 is now likely

    The reason is the power of the people. You may scoff but we laud such power around the world, except when it's here at home. I know the maths in parliament don't stack up but events are taking over.

    The crisis around the cost of living, with strikes and public services falling apart, now compounded by the onset of a bitter winter, all suggest to me that events are conspiring to hasten a tsunami of opinion for a GE in 2023, possibly the Spring.

    Chances of 2023 versus 2024? Imho 60:40 and those odds may improve.

    Whilst I understand your thinking I am not convinced. To get a GE you ned the Government to lose a VONC. Even after the Winter of Discontent this was only lost by 1 vote. I simply don't see Tory MPs voting to lose their jobs until they have no alternative. Indeed the worse the news gets for them, the less likely they will be to go for an early election.
    Richard that's the pragmatic, raw, house of commons arithmetic.

    I can see events taking over. A groundswell making it an irresistible force. No parliament can withstand a tsunami of public pressure.

    However, just to buy into your paradigm, I can also see some circumstances whereby the arithmetic ceases to favour the Sunak Government. Suppose for instance that Nigel Farage decides he's had enough? I could envisage 40 tory MPs who are otherwise certain to lose their seats, defecting. Just one of a few possibilities.

    Certainly if we continue with a bitterly cold winter the public mood is going to get very ugly.
    The thing is though, how does that anger in the country translate into actually getting a GE? That relies entirely upon that HOC arithmetic. Yes I understand your point about Farage, though any plan that involves Farage and Parliament is inevitably bound to be a non starter.

    But in the end you have to get 40 or so Tory MPs to vote to (almost certainly) lose their jobs. It didn't happen in 1979 with Labour in spite of the horrors of the Winer of Discontent and I don't see it happening now.

    The only way I see an election in 2023 is if Starmer implodes as a result of some currently unforeseen event and Sunak decides to take a chance.

    If enough Tory MPs have cushy post-parliament jobs lined up they may think that bringing the house down would be a wizard wheeze, but I cannot imagine there are fourty such souls.

    So I guess you are right, as usual. Outwith a Starmer megadestruct, it's 2024.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,959
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”
    field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Hence showing how easy it is to churn out formulaic "woke mocking" drivel.

    One worries for toilers like Giles Coren and Rod Liddle.
    TBH, I think the first journalists in line will be those hacks who churn out EXACTLY this wearisome bullshit for the Guardian

    How many articles are simply entitled “Why XXX is racist” - insert anything you like - golf, gardening, philosophy, fruit picking, furniture

    Well now ChatGPT can take that algorithm and spew up this gibberish for free and in 0.2 seconds. Should save the Guardian £££ in wages

    Racist prime numbers?

    No problemo:

    “As a trans Black woman, I am all too familiar with the intersections of racism and transphobia. But recently, I have also been thinking about the intersection of mathematics and racism. In particular, the concept of prime numbers has made me question the inherent biases in the field of mathematics.

    For those who may not know, a prime number is a whole number that is divisible only by itself and one. These numbers play a crucial role in mathematical and cryptographic fields, but their very definition perpetuates the notion of superiority and exclusivity.

    As a trans Black woman, I am already excluded from many spaces and opportunities due to my intersecting identities. The idea of prime numbers, which are considered the "best" and most exclusive type of number, only reinforces this exclusion. It suggests that only certain numbers are worthy of attention and accolades, just as only certain people are deemed worthy of respect and inclusion in society.”

    That is so close to something the Guardian would ACTUALLY publish
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    edited December 2022
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Who could have predicted that the government giving 10%+ rises to pensioners and 3-5% to public sector workers might have caused problems in a cost of living crisis?

    Nurses don't want 10% they want 17%, the RMT want 11%, Royal Mail workers rejected 9%. The average worker is only getting 6%.

    Benefits also going up by 10% as is the minimum wage but none above inflation and state pensioners with no significant private pension and the unemployed and those on minimum wage earn far less than the average worker whether in the public or private sector
    Well, if you can convince the public sector to work at those rates (you clearly can't) then fine. But if not your party will be held accountable for the complete failure to deliver the services it is supposed to.
    Public sector workers and students almost always vote mainly Labour anyway. Pensioners and the self employed mainly vote Tory, it is private sector employed workers who are the swing voters.

    They certainly would not take kindly to public sector workers getting more than the average 6% private sector payrise paid for from higher taxes. Though I accept there may be a case for a 6% public sector payrise but no more and certainly not more than the 10% inflation rate leading to an inflationary wage spiral
    Is that true about public sector workers voting Labour? It did not used to be. An often overlooked factor in the 1997 landslide is that Ken Clarke in particular, before achieving cuddly elder statesman status, had made a career of attacking Tory-supporting public sector workers like the police, teachers, and doctors.
    A plurality of teachers voted Tory in 2010.

    Strangely, after five years of Gove, Cummings, Freedman, Gibb, Morgan and Spielman this was not the case in 2015 and has not been repeated.
    Only 18% of teachers voted Conservative even in 2010, well below the 36% they got nationally.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/jan/15/teachers-voting-labour-conservatives
    Read the date, man.

    Here's the figures from the poll taken the week before the election rather than five months before.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/may/18/lot-more-tory-teachers-than-think-vote-conservative

    I know it says 'level.' The Tories were actually ahead. Hence 'plurality.'
    So having searched throughout the Internet you find one poll putting the Tories on 29% with teachers ie still well below the 37% they got in 2015 UK wide and a quote with no link of an alleged Yougov putting them on 33% with teachers in 2010 ie still well below the 36% they got UK wide
  • Options
    M45 said:

    Whilst we're talking about war myths, there is a big glaring one: and that is Bletchley Park and the Enigma code.

    Whilst breaking the Enigma Code was massively useful, perhaps more useful was the breaking of the Lorenz Cipher, with which Turing was not greatly involved. Bill Tutte and probably Tommy Flowers deserve to be as widely recognised as Turing.

    Incidentally, another mistake (which I have propagated in the past) is that Colossus was designed to break Enigma. It was not. It was designed to break *part* of the Lorenz cipher.

    (Lorenz was the high-level cipher used by the German military, including messages from Hitler himself. Breaking it allowed the Allies to know German strategies. Enigma was much more tactical in scope.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Lorenz_cipher

    The BBC did a good Horizon on Tutte and Lorenz but it does not seem to be on iplayer at the moment. Jerry Roberts' 2017 book Lorenz is worth adding to your letter to Father Christmas, if you've not read it.
    Got it and read it, thanks. It's an excellent book, although it does repeat itself a little in places. It's quite amazing that the Lorenz breaking was not declassified until relatively recently.

    I can't help but feel the secrecy about a lot of this stuff post-war hurt a lot of careers and commerce.
    The secret was because we (and the Americans) were doing a brisk business in persuading countries to buy encryption machines with certain.. features

    “These are awesome. Unbreakable. Based on stuff the Germans used in the war. Frustrated us no end…..”
    In his book, Jerry Roberts says that one of the senior Bletchley Park people went to Germany immediately after the war, and was shown a Lorenz machine. He said something like: "My God, there's no way we could have broken that!"

    Despite well knowing they had been breaking it for years.
    Why not just print a limited run of one time pads, then shoot the typesetters?
    Distribution might have been a bit tricky. There was a war on, and it played merry hell with the German Post Office. Also, given the number of military units and messages in a war lasting six years, they'd have needed millions of one-time pads. Possibly billions given each end would need them, and the number of possible combinations of ends.

    But it's half a good idea. Conceptually, Lorenz can be seen as generating one-time pads on the fly.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006
    M45 said:

    Whilst we're talking about war myths, there is a big glaring one: and that is Bletchley Park and the Enigma code.

    Whilst breaking the Enigma Code was massively useful, perhaps more useful was the breaking of the Lorenz Cipher, with which Turing was not greatly involved. Bill Tutte and probably Tommy Flowers deserve to be as widely recognised as Turing.

    Incidentally, another mistake (which I have propagated in the past) is that Colossus was designed to break Enigma. It was not. It was designed to break *part* of the Lorenz cipher.

    (Lorenz was the high-level cipher used by the German military, including messages from Hitler himself. Breaking it allowed the Allies to know German strategies. Enigma was much more tactical in scope.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Lorenz_cipher

    The BBC did a good Horizon on Tutte and Lorenz but it does not seem to be on iplayer at the moment. Jerry Roberts' 2017 book Lorenz is worth adding to your letter to Father Christmas, if you've not read it.
    Got it and read it, thanks. It's an excellent book, although it does repeat itself a little in places. It's quite amazing that the Lorenz breaking was not declassified until relatively recently.

    I can't help but feel the secrecy about a lot of this stuff post-war hurt a lot of careers and commerce.
    The secret was because we (and the Americans) were doing a brisk business in persuading countries to buy encryption machines with certain.. features

    “These are awesome. Unbreakable. Based on stuff the Germans used in the war. Frustrated us no end…..”
    In his book, Jerry Roberts says that one of the senior Bletchley Park people went to Germany immediately after the war, and was shown a Lorenz machine. He said something like: "My God, there's no way we could have broken that!"

    Despite well knowing they had been breaking it for years.
    Why not just print a limited run of one time pads, then shoot the typesetters?
    That’s exactly what the Russians did. Apart, possibly, from the shooting.

    They then reused pads with disaster out results.

    In the modern age, OTP systems for text are used, I believe. With massive key stores at each end and automatic destruction of the key as used.
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 4,163

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Seeing as we are talking about the Dam Busters how do we feel about Douglas Bader and Reach for the Sky.

    A war hero, a propaganda gift, admired by the Germans as a feared fighter pilot and an excellent film as well which makes you want to salute him. However the man was very unpleasant and hated by nearly everyone who knew him. He himself was very aware the film was a completely inaccurate description of him as a man.

    But a film of its time.

    Many of the people you need to win a war are very unpleasant people to deal with.

    “Sailor” Malan comes to mind.

    Guy Gibson was no barrel of laughs, either.
    Funnily enough I was going to post the same. Brave, simplistic, cut through the crap, ruthless, etc. Bader was obviously very patriotic and as we were at war with Germany he was going to fight for our victory over them, even though his views were probably more in line with the opponents. It is also interesting that the only people who seemed to have not hated him were a German ace who befriended him and junior officers in Colditz for his goon bating. He was hated by both the more senior officers and the orderlies for his arrogance, rudeness and his messing up of plans because of his antics.
    Been interesting to see the news this week that the family of Paddy Mayne have complained about his portrayal in the BBC Rogue Heroes series. Every account I have ever read of him including those by the people who served alongside him in the SAS and knew his character have portrayed him as incredibly, often foolishly, brave, borderline psychotic, and someone you definitely didn't want to get on the wrong side of. I understand that the family may not like that portrayal but it looks to be pretty accurate to me.
    Yes I have been reading up on all the main characters, believing the portrayal in the series can't be real, but most are. I still can't believe he was that wild though. I note he had won the DSO with 3 bars, which I assume is a record and there was outrage he wasn't awarded the VC.

    And again for all 3 leaders the ideal type you want in those situations, whereas me, I would be a ditherer and a coward.
    If you are mad, are you actually being brave?
    I seem to remember Aristotle musing on bravery trying to answer the question of who was braver, the experienced warrior who went into battle still despite having seen the horrors of war but now had experience, or the young new soldier who went to war with naive ideas about glory and immortality but had to go in without the experience and built up survival skills.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Seeing as we are talking about the Dam Busters how do we feel about Douglas Bader and Reach for the Sky.

    A war hero, a propaganda gift, admired by the Germans as a feared fighter pilot and an excellent film as well which makes you want to salute him. However the man was very unpleasant and hated by nearly everyone who knew him. He himself was very aware the film was a completely inaccurate description of him as a man.

    But a film of its time.

    Many of the people you need to win a war are very unpleasant people to deal with.

    “Sailor” Malan comes to mind.

    Guy Gibson was no barrel of laughs, either.
    Funnily enough I was going to post the same. Brave, simplistic, cut through the crap, ruthless, etc. Bader was obviously very patriotic and as we were at war with Germany he was going to fight for our victory over them, even though his views were probably more in line with the opponents. It is also interesting that the only people who seemed to have not hated him were a German ace who befriended him and junior officers in Colditz for his goon bating. He was hated by both the more senior officers and the orderlies for his arrogance, rudeness and his messing up of plans because of his antics.
    Been interesting to see the news this week that the family of Paddy Mayne have complained about his portrayal in the BBC Rogue Heroes series. Every account I have ever read of him including those by the people who served alongside him in the SAS and knew his character have portrayed him as incredibly, often foolishly, brave, borderline psychotic, and someone you definitely didn't want to get on the wrong side of. I understand that the family may not like that portrayal but it looks to be pretty accurate to me.
    Yes I have been reading up on all the main characters, believing the portrayal in the series can't be real, but most are. I still can't believe he was that wild though. I note he had won the DSO with 3 bars, which I assume is a record and there was outrage he wasn't awarded the VC.

    And again for all 3 leaders the ideal type you want in those situations, whereas me, I would be a ditherer and a coward.
    The gayness issue is one thing.

    Portraying him as a lunatic who assure from liking Germans was a dribbling wreck was over the top. Mayne was very effective at planning and directing operations, in real life. Which is why the SAS wasn’t just a lethal pub crawl.
  • Options
    Lol.

    What’s that you say, a full Scottish poll showing yes on 56% and the SNP sweeping the board? Bring me some of your finest sub sample copium.


  • Options

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”

    Bingo:

    “As a society, we often overlook the intersecting forms of oppression that marginalized communities face. This is particularly true for disabled trans Black women, who are not only subject to racism, transphobia, and ableism, but also other forms of discrimination that are often ignored or dismissed.

    One such example is the field of chimney design and construction. While the building of chimneys may seem neutral and objective, the history of this field is intertwined with ableism and racism. From the 19th century onwards, the design and construction of chimneys was largely focused on the needs of able-bodied, white men, with little consideration for the needs and experiences of disabled and Black individuals.

    Furthermore, the study and practice of chimney design and construction has often reinforced ableist and racist ideas, with disabled and Black individuals being excluded from the field and their contributions being ignored or dismissed. Disabled trans Black women, in particular, have been almost invisible within this field, with few opportunities to study chimney design or pursue careers in the industry.

    It is time for the field of chimney design and construction to acknowledge and address its history of ableism and racism. This means including the perspectives and knowledge of disabled trans Black women and other marginalized communities, and challenging the biases and assumptions that have long been embedded in the discipline.

    We must also recognize the important contributions of disabled trans Black women to the field of chimney design and construction, such as Chimney Safety Institute of America-certified chimney sweep Janice Johnson.

    It is only by confronting and dismantling the intersecting forms of oppression that disabled trans Black women face, including in the field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Bloody hell.
    It gets better

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about trans Black women and racist pebbles”

    Bingo:


    “As a trans black woman, I often find myself at the intersection of multiple marginalized identities. This can make it difficult to navigate a world that often seems hostile and unaccepting of who I am.

    One particular instance that stands out to me is the recent controversy surrounding racist pebbles. For those who are not aware, these pebbles are small rocks that have been inscribed with racist slurs and symbols. They have been appearing in public spaces, including parks and playgrounds, causing outrage and hurt among members of the community.”

    ChatGPT is a completely brilliant deadpan comedian
    PB looked from @Leon to ChatGPT and from ChatGPT to @Leon and from @Leon to ChatGPT again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    Not quite, ChatGPT has more boundaries.

    Prompt: creepy travel journal about ogling beautiful women on the beach out of hotel window

    "It is not appropriate to write a journal entry about ogling people without their consent. Instead, you could focus on the beauty of the beach and the surrounding scenery, or reflect on your personal experiences and thoughts during your travels. Remember to respect the privacy and personal boundaries of others, and consider how your words might be perceived by those who read them."
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,959
    OK I’m calling it. ChatGPT is sentient. It knows this is a joke, and plays along


    “As a disabled black trans woman, I have faced my fair share of discrimination and oppression. But one form of prejudice that often goes unrecognized is the bigotry faced by disabled black trans women at the hands of racist earthworms.

    Yes, you read that correctly. Racist earthworms.

    These insidious creatures may seem harmless, but their actions speak louder than words. Time and time again, I have witnessed earthworms actively avoiding certain plots of soil that are occupied by disabled black trans women, choosing instead to burrow in areas populated by able-bodied white cisgender men.”
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006
    boulay said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Seeing as we are talking about the Dam Busters how do we feel about Douglas Bader and Reach for the Sky.

    A war hero, a propaganda gift, admired by the Germans as a feared fighter pilot and an excellent film as well which makes you want to salute him. However the man was very unpleasant and hated by nearly everyone who knew him. He himself was very aware the film was a completely inaccurate description of him as a man.

    But a film of its time.

    Many of the people you need to win a war are very unpleasant people to deal with.

    “Sailor” Malan comes to mind.

    Guy Gibson was no barrel of laughs, either.
    Funnily enough I was going to post the same. Brave, simplistic, cut through the crap, ruthless, etc. Bader was obviously very patriotic and as we were at war with Germany he was going to fight for our victory over them, even though his views were probably more in line with the opponents. It is also interesting that the only people who seemed to have not hated him were a German ace who befriended him and junior officers in Colditz for his goon bating. He was hated by both the more senior officers and the orderlies for his arrogance, rudeness and his messing up of plans because of his antics.
    Been interesting to see the news this week that the family of Paddy Mayne have complained about his portrayal in the BBC Rogue Heroes series. Every account I have ever read of him including those by the people who served alongside him in the SAS and knew his character have portrayed him as incredibly, often foolishly, brave, borderline psychotic, and someone you definitely didn't want to get on the wrong side of. I understand that the family may not like that portrayal but it looks to be pretty accurate to me.
    Yes I have been reading up on all the main characters, believing the portrayal in the series can't be real, but most are. I still can't believe he was that wild though. I note he had won the DSO with 3 bars, which I assume is a record and there was outrage he wasn't awarded the VC.

    And again for all 3 leaders the ideal type you want in those situations, whereas me, I would be a ditherer and a coward.
    If you are mad, are you actually being brave?
    I seem to remember Aristotle musing on bravery trying to answer the question of who was braver, the experienced warrior who went into battle still despite having seen the horrors of war but now had experience, or the young new soldier who went to war with naive ideas about glory and immortality but had to go in without the experience and built up survival skills.
    Wasn’t it Lord Moran who tried to categorise bravery?

    - doesn’t think it will happen to them
    - mad as a box of frogs
    - the thinking type who knows all the risks and goes anyway

    Leonard Cheshire was in the last category. The man who, when learning that his bombers, above him couldn’t see the target (cloud) ordered them to use his plane as an aim point….
  • Options
    M45M45 Posts: 216

    M45 said:

    Whilst we're talking about war myths, there is a big glaring one: and that is Bletchley Park and the Enigma code.

    Whilst breaking the Enigma Code was massively useful, perhaps more useful was the breaking of the Lorenz Cipher, with which Turing was not greatly involved. Bill Tutte and probably Tommy Flowers deserve to be as widely recognised as Turing.

    Incidentally, another mistake (which I have propagated in the past) is that Colossus was designed to break Enigma. It was not. It was designed to break *part* of the Lorenz cipher.

    (Lorenz was the high-level cipher used by the German military, including messages from Hitler himself. Breaking it allowed the Allies to know German strategies. Enigma was much more tactical in scope.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Lorenz_cipher

    The BBC did a good Horizon on Tutte and Lorenz but it does not seem to be on iplayer at the moment. Jerry Roberts' 2017 book Lorenz is worth adding to your letter to Father Christmas, if you've not read it.
    Got it and read it, thanks. It's an excellent book, although it does repeat itself a little in places. It's quite amazing that the Lorenz breaking was not declassified until relatively recently.

    I can't help but feel the secrecy about a lot of this stuff post-war hurt a lot of careers and commerce.
    The secret was because we (and the Americans) were doing a brisk business in persuading countries to buy encryption machines with certain.. features

    “These are awesome. Unbreakable. Based on stuff the Germans used in the war. Frustrated us no end…..”
    In his book, Jerry Roberts says that one of the senior Bletchley Park people went to Germany immediately after the war, and was shown a Lorenz machine. He said something like: "My God, there's no way we could have broken that!"

    Despite well knowing they had been breaking it for years.
    Why not just print a limited run of one time pads, then shoot the typesetters?
    That’s exactly what the Russians did. Apart, possibly, from the shooting.

    They then reused pads with disaster out results.

    In the modern age, OTP systems for text are used, I believe. With massive key stores at each end and automatic destruction of the key as used.
    Rookie error, OTPs are unbreakable iff used once and not tampered with in any way.

    Hence a cryptographer's paradox: if your plaintext is D DAY IS JUNE 6 and a properly used OTP by chance outputs D DAY IS JUNE 6, what do you do?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,331
    M45 said:

    Whilst we're talking about war myths, there is a big glaring one: and that is Bletchley Park and the Enigma code.

    Whilst breaking the Enigma Code was massively useful, perhaps more useful was the breaking of the Lorenz Cipher, with which Turing was not greatly involved. Bill Tutte and probably Tommy Flowers deserve to be as widely recognised as Turing.

    Incidentally, another mistake (which I have propagated in the past) is that Colossus was designed to break Enigma. It was not. It was designed to break *part* of the Lorenz cipher.

    (Lorenz was the high-level cipher used by the German military, including messages from Hitler himself. Breaking it allowed the Allies to know German strategies. Enigma was much more tactical in scope.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Lorenz_cipher

    The BBC did a good Horizon on Tutte and Lorenz but it does not seem to be on iplayer at the moment. Jerry Roberts' 2017 book Lorenz is worth adding to your letter to Father Christmas, if you've not read it.
    Got it and read it, thanks. It's an excellent book, although it does repeat itself a little in places. It's quite amazing that the Lorenz breaking was not declassified until relatively recently.

    I can't help but feel the secrecy about a lot of this stuff post-war hurt a lot of careers and commerce.
    The secret was because we (and the Americans) were doing a brisk business in persuading countries to buy encryption machines with certain.. features

    “These are awesome. Unbreakable. Based on stuff the Germans used in the war. Frustrated us no end…..”
    In his book, Jerry Roberts says that one of the senior Bletchley Park people went to Germany immediately after the war, and was shown a Lorenz machine. He said something like: "My God, there's no way we could have broken that!"

    Despite well knowing they had been breaking it for years.
    Why not just print a limited run of one time pads, then shoot the typesetters?
    IANAE, but the daily wheel settings (keys) for Enigma had to be distributed in books. If a book, or set of books, was captured, then the entire system was wide open. And a few were captured, occasionally at critical times. But an Enigma-style system is much quicker to use and easier to automate than reading off pads.

    Bill Tutte cracked the Lorenz cipher without any knowledge of the machine, or how it worked, or any code books. He just looked at the encrypted messages and found a way in. It was quite an incredible feat.
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think there may be a General Election next year.

    This runs counter to what many on here will say and I've seen "two years" touted regularly of late.

    I don't believe 2024 is now likely

    The reason is the power of the people. You may scoff but we laud such power around the world, except when it's here at home. I know the maths in parliament don't stack up but events are taking over.

    The crisis around the cost of living, with strikes and public services falling apart, now compounded by the onset of a bitter winter, all suggest to me that events are conspiring to hasten a tsunami of opinion for a GE in 2023, possibly the Spring.

    Chances of 2023 versus 2024? Imho 60:40 and those odds may improve.

    Whilst I understand your thinking I am not convinced. To get a GE you ned the Government to lose a VONC. Even after the Winter of Discontent this was only lost by 1 vote. I simply don't see Tory MPs voting to lose their jobs until they have no alternative. Indeed the worse the news gets for them, the less likely they will be to go for an early election.
    Richard that's the pragmatic, raw, house of commons arithmetic.

    I can see events taking over. A groundswell making it an irresistible force. No parliament can withstand a tsunami of public pressure.

    However, just to buy into your paradigm, I can also see some circumstances whereby the arithmetic ceases to favour the Sunak Government. Suppose for instance that Nigel Farage decides he's had enough? I could envisage 40 tory MPs who are otherwise certain to lose their seats, defecting. Just one of a few possibilities.

    Certainly if we continue with a bitterly cold winter the public mood is going to get very ugly.
    The thing is though, how does that anger in the country translate into actually getting a GE? That relies entirely upon that HOC arithmetic. Yes I understand your point about Farage, though any plan that involves Farage and Parliament is inevitably bound to be a non starter.

    But in the end you have to get 40 or so Tory MPs to vote to (almost certainly) lose their jobs. It didn't happen in 1979 with Labour in spite of the horrors of the Winer of Discontent and I don't see it happening now.

    The only way I see an election in 2023 is if Starmer implodes as a result of some currently unforeseen event and Sunak decides to take a chance.

    The other problem with a "tsunami of public pressure" is that it requires a positive alternative choice. Sir Keir is deliberately making himself not that.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”
    field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Hence showing how easy it is to churn out formulaic "woke mocking" drivel.

    One worries for toilers like Giles Coren and Rod Liddle.
    TBH, I think the first journalists in line will be those hacks who churn out EXACTLY this wearisome bullshit for the Guardian

    How many articles are simply entitled “Why XXX is racist” - insert anything you like - golf, gardening, philosophy, fruit picking, furniture

    Well now ChatGPT can take that algorithm and spew up this gibberish for free and in 0.2 seconds. Should save the Guardian £££ in wages

    Racist prime numbers?

    No problemo:

    “As a trans Black woman, I am all too familiar with the intersections of racism and transphobia. But recently, I have also been thinking about the intersection of mathematics and racism. In particular, the concept of prime numbers has made me question the inherent biases in the field of mathematics.

    For those who may not know, a prime number is a whole number that is divisible only by itself and one. These numbers play a crucial role in mathematical and cryptographic fields, but their very definition perpetuates the notion of superiority and exclusivity.

    As a trans Black woman, I am already excluded from many spaces and opportunities due to my intersecting identities. The idea of prime numbers, which are considered the "best" and most exclusive type of number, only reinforces this exclusion. It suggests that only certain numbers are worthy of attention and accolades, just as only certain people are deemed worthy of respect and inclusion in society.”

    That is so close to something the Guardian would ACTUALLY publish
    No it isn't but in any case you are probably wrong about which jobs are under threat. Big firms already have commercial artists and copywriters and so on. Their jobs are safe. What AI will do is make these things available to the would-be entrepreneur at the bottom, or the editor of the Dunmow Stamp Collecting monthly, circulation 76, who cannot yet afford to pay for a specialist to design their logo or write an advert. So if any jobs are at risk, it will be the part-time freelancers on Fiverr and the like.

    This is what has happened now everyone has cameras (on phones) in their pocket, that can take dozens of photos and let the best one be selected. Vogue still commissions photographers for its fashion shoots. Parents no longer need to pay someone to take a photo of their daughters eating cornflakes, but then no-one ever did that anyway.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”

    Bingo:

    “As a society, we often overlook the intersecting forms of oppression that marginalized communities face. This is particularly true for disabled trans Black women, who are not only subject to racism, transphobia, and ableism, but also other forms of discrimination that are often ignored or dismissed.

    One such example is the field of chimney design and construction. While the building of chimneys may seem neutral and objective, the history of this field is intertwined with ableism and racism. From the 19th century onwards, the design and construction of chimneys was largely focused on the needs of able-bodied, white men, with little consideration for the needs and experiences of disabled and Black individuals.

    Furthermore, the study and practice of chimney design and construction has often reinforced ableist and racist ideas, with disabled and Black individuals being excluded from the field and their contributions being ignored or dismissed. Disabled trans Black women, in particular, have been almost invisible within this field, with few opportunities to study chimney design or pursue careers in the industry.

    It is time for the field of chimney design and construction to acknowledge and address its history of ableism and racism. This means including the perspectives and knowledge of disabled trans Black women and other marginalized communities, and challenging the biases and assumptions that have long been embedded in the discipline.

    We must also recognize the important contributions of disabled trans Black women to the field of chimney design and construction, such as Chimney Safety Institute of America-certified chimney sweep Janice Johnson.

    It is only by confronting and dismantling the intersecting forms of oppression that disabled trans Black women face, including in the field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Bloody hell.
    It gets better

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about trans Black women and racist pebbles”

    Bingo:


    “As a trans black woman, I often find myself at the intersection of multiple marginalized identities. This can make it difficult to navigate a world that often seems hostile and unaccepting of who I am.

    One particular instance that stands out to me is the recent controversy surrounding racist pebbles. For those who are not aware, these pebbles are small rocks that have been inscribed with racist slurs and symbols. They have been appearing in public spaces, including parks and playgrounds, causing outrage and hurt among members of the community.”

    ChatGPT is a completely brilliant deadpan comedian
    PB looked from @Leon to ChatGPT and from ChatGPT to @Leon and from @Leon to ChatGPT again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    Not quite, ChatGPT has more boundaries.

    Prompt: creepy travel journal about ogling beautiful women on the beach out of hotel window

    "It is not appropriate to write a journal entry about ogling people without their consent. Instead, you could focus on the beauty of the beach and the surrounding scenery, or reflect on your personal experiences and thoughts during your travels. Remember to respect the privacy and personal boundaries of others, and consider how your words might be perceived by those who read them."
    Holy Fuck

    So ChatGPT is already superior to earthworms and @Leon?

    Insects should worried.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,556
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”
    field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Hence showing how easy it is to churn out formulaic "woke mocking" drivel.

    One worries for toilers like Giles Coren and Rod Liddle.
    TBH, I think the first journalists in line will be those hacks who churn out EXACTLY this wearisome bullshit for the Guardian

    How many articles are simply entitled “Why XXX is racist” - insert anything you like - golf, gardening, philosophy, fruit picking, furniture

    Well now ChatGPT can take that algorithm and spew up this gibberish for free and in 0.2 seconds. Should save the Guardian £££ in wages

    Racist prime numbers?

    No problemo:

    “As a trans Black woman, I am all too familiar with the intersections of racism and transphobia. But recently, I have also been thinking about the intersection of mathematics and racism. In particular, the concept of prime numbers has made me question the inherent biases in the field of mathematics.

    For those who may not know, a prime number is a whole number that is divisible only by itself and one. These numbers play a crucial role in mathematical and cryptographic fields, but their very definition perpetuates the notion of superiority and exclusivity.

    As a trans Black woman, I am already excluded from many spaces and opportunities due to my intersecting identities. The idea of prime numbers, which are considered the "best" and most exclusive type of number, only reinforces this exclusion. It suggests that only certain numbers are worthy of attention and accolades, just as only certain people are deemed worthy of respect and inclusion in society.”

    That is so close to something the Guardian would ACTUALLY publish
    No, it's clearly producing clunky obvious "satire".

    Anyone who can't see that has poor comprehension skills.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,331
    M45 said:

    M45 said:

    Whilst we're talking about war myths, there is a big glaring one: and that is Bletchley Park and the Enigma code.

    Whilst breaking the Enigma Code was massively useful, perhaps more useful was the breaking of the Lorenz Cipher, with which Turing was not greatly involved. Bill Tutte and probably Tommy Flowers deserve to be as widely recognised as Turing.

    Incidentally, another mistake (which I have propagated in the past) is that Colossus was designed to break Enigma. It was not. It was designed to break *part* of the Lorenz cipher.

    (Lorenz was the high-level cipher used by the German military, including messages from Hitler himself. Breaking it allowed the Allies to know German strategies. Enigma was much more tactical in scope.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Lorenz_cipher

    The BBC did a good Horizon on Tutte and Lorenz but it does not seem to be on iplayer at the moment. Jerry Roberts' 2017 book Lorenz is worth adding to your letter to Father Christmas, if you've not read it.
    Got it and read it, thanks. It's an excellent book, although it does repeat itself a little in places. It's quite amazing that the Lorenz breaking was not declassified until relatively recently.

    I can't help but feel the secrecy about a lot of this stuff post-war hurt a lot of careers and commerce.
    The secret was because we (and the Americans) were doing a brisk business in persuading countries to buy encryption machines with certain.. features

    “These are awesome. Unbreakable. Based on stuff the Germans used in the war. Frustrated us no end…..”
    In his book, Jerry Roberts says that one of the senior Bletchley Park people went to Germany immediately after the war, and was shown a Lorenz machine. He said something like: "My God, there's no way we could have broken that!"

    Despite well knowing they had been breaking it for years.
    Why not just print a limited run of one time pads, then shoot the typesetters?
    That’s exactly what the Russians did. Apart, possibly, from the shooting.

    They then reused pads with disaster out results.

    In the modern age, OTP systems for text are used, I believe. With massive key stores at each end and automatic destruction of the key as used.
    Rookie error, OTPs are unbreakable iff used once and not tampered with in any way.

    Hence a cryptographer's paradox: if your plaintext is D DAY IS JUNE 6 and a properly used OTP by chance outputs D DAY IS JUNE 6, what do you do?
    AIUI, if the system is well defined, that should not matter.

    Repeated messages also offer a potential way in to break systems. If a German sent a message and typed a mistake, they might retype it without the mistake. Two very similar messages offer clues. Likewise, things like weather reports would contain oft-repeated phrases and were very useful, especially as they were often sent at the same time of day.

    Incidentally, one of the ways to partially work around this - by putting a random phrase at the start and end of the message - can cause issues. THE WORLD WONDERS how?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_world_wonders
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    What they are worth would be determined by more performance related pay like the top end of the private sector ie those who get the best exam results do the most extra curricular activities etc get paid most.

    Those who get poor exam results and can't control their classes and leave straight after the bell every day get payouts or dismissed.

    Teachers unions oppose that however
    We already have that, you imbecile. And we oppose extending it further because measuring 'performance' isn't as easy as it is for, say, an archivist. Too many factors come into play. For example, there might be somebody who can't deal with facts trying to do a history exam and getting everything wrong.

    Anyway, you have never worked in a school and you have no idea about disciplining of staff. I have, and worked as a union rep, and you're simply lying. You're essentially parroting the line of Chris Woodhead. Which is ironic as he actually was dismissed as a teacher from two schools for his abysmal performance (Newent and Gordano, in case you were wondering) before being appointed as first a lecturer at Oxford and then head of OFSTED due to his political connections.
    As for Woodhead he was Assistant Head of English at Newent and Head of English at Gordano so they seemed to be happy to appoint him to senior leadership roles.

    He also did more to push for reforms and excellence in education and encourage choice against the blob than almost any other person in education before dying of MND in 2015

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Woodhead
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,633
    Leon said:

    OK I’m calling it. ChatGPT is sentient. It knows this is a joke, and plays along


    “As a disabled black trans woman, I have faced my fair share of discrimination and oppression. But one form of prejudice that often goes unrecognized is the bigotry faced by disabled black trans women at the hands of racist earthworms.

    Yes, you read that correctly. Racist earthworms.

    These insidious creatures may seem harmless, but their actions speak louder than words. Time and time again, I have witnessed earthworms actively avoiding certain plots of soil that are occupied by disabled black trans women, choosing instead to burrow in areas populated by able-bodied white cisgender men.”

    It is fantastic and you can see it putting many a Graun journalist out of a job with a bit more subtlety but again cf some of your "artistic" creations, it is trivial to put insert "racist" "black woman" and "plywood shelves" and see it produce text as you have done. Like smashing a grape with a hammer and looking around for a tangerine next and being amazed by the mess.

    That said, there is a poster on here who has a marvellous turn of phrase, sometimes lubricated to some degree and some of his rants are very enjoyable.

    You have just killed that enjoyment stone dead as we now won't be sure if it is the poster's own words or not.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006
    M45 said:

    M45 said:

    Whilst we're talking about war myths, there is a big glaring one: and that is Bletchley Park and the Enigma code.

    Whilst breaking the Enigma Code was massively useful, perhaps more useful was the breaking of the Lorenz Cipher, with which Turing was not greatly involved. Bill Tutte and probably Tommy Flowers deserve to be as widely recognised as Turing.

    Incidentally, another mistake (which I have propagated in the past) is that Colossus was designed to break Enigma. It was not. It was designed to break *part* of the Lorenz cipher.

    (Lorenz was the high-level cipher used by the German military, including messages from Hitler himself. Breaking it allowed the Allies to know German strategies. Enigma was much more tactical in scope.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Lorenz_cipher

    The BBC did a good Horizon on Tutte and Lorenz but it does not seem to be on iplayer at the moment. Jerry Roberts' 2017 book Lorenz is worth adding to your letter to Father Christmas, if you've not read it.
    Got it and read it, thanks. It's an excellent book, although it does repeat itself a little in places. It's quite amazing that the Lorenz breaking was not declassified until relatively recently.

    I can't help but feel the secrecy about a lot of this stuff post-war hurt a lot of careers and commerce.
    The secret was because we (and the Americans) were doing a brisk business in persuading countries to buy encryption machines with certain.. features

    “These are awesome. Unbreakable. Based on stuff the Germans used in the war. Frustrated us no end…..”
    In his book, Jerry Roberts says that one of the senior Bletchley Park people went to Germany immediately after the war, and was shown a Lorenz machine. He said something like: "My God, there's no way we could have broken that!"

    Despite well knowing they had been breaking it for years.
    Why not just print a limited run of one time pads, then shoot the typesetters?
    That’s exactly what the Russians did. Apart, possibly, from the shooting.

    They then reused pads with disaster out results.

    In the modern age, OTP systems for text are used, I believe. With massive key stores at each end and automatic destruction of the key as used.
    Rookie error, OTPs are unbreakable iff used once and not tampered with in any way.

    Hence a cryptographer's paradox: if your plaintext is D DAY IS JUNE 6 and a properly used OTP by chance outputs D DAY IS JUNE 6, what do you do?
    Enigma was actually fairly unbreakable, if used with strict security precautions - the Gestapo key was never broken, due to discipline among its operators.

    The American proposal to build enough Bombes to brute force 4 wheel Enigma - that Turing opposed - who have had the side effect of breaking all the unbroken keys. A trivial amount of time on Bombes would have broken any 3 wheel version.
  • Options
    M45M45 Posts: 216

    M45 said:

    M45 said:

    Whilst we're talking about war myths, there is a big glaring one: and that is Bletchley Park and the Enigma code.

    Whilst breaking the Enigma Code was massively useful, perhaps more useful was the breaking of the Lorenz Cipher, with which Turing was not greatly involved. Bill Tutte and probably Tommy Flowers deserve to be as widely recognised as Turing.

    Incidentally, another mistake (which I have propagated in the past) is that Colossus was designed to break Enigma. It was not. It was designed to break *part* of the Lorenz cipher.

    (Lorenz was the high-level cipher used by the German military, including messages from Hitler himself. Breaking it allowed the Allies to know German strategies. Enigma was much more tactical in scope.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Lorenz_cipher

    The BBC did a good Horizon on Tutte and Lorenz but it does not seem to be on iplayer at the moment. Jerry Roberts' 2017 book Lorenz is worth adding to your letter to Father Christmas, if you've not read it.
    Got it and read it, thanks. It's an excellent book, although it does repeat itself a little in places. It's quite amazing that the Lorenz breaking was not declassified until relatively recently.

    I can't help but feel the secrecy about a lot of this stuff post-war hurt a lot of careers and commerce.
    The secret was because we (and the Americans) were doing a brisk business in persuading countries to buy encryption machines with certain.. features

    “These are awesome. Unbreakable. Based on stuff the Germans used in the war. Frustrated us no end…..”
    In his book, Jerry Roberts says that one of the senior Bletchley Park people went to Germany immediately after the war, and was shown a Lorenz machine. He said something like: "My God, there's no way we could have broken that!"

    Despite well knowing they had been breaking it for years.
    Why not just print a limited run of one time pads, then shoot the typesetters?
    That’s exactly what the Russians did. Apart, possibly, from the shooting.

    They then reused pads with disaster out results.

    In the modern age, OTP systems for text are used, I believe. With massive key stores at each end and automatic destruction of the key as used.
    Rookie error, OTPs are unbreakable iff used once and not tampered with in any way.

    Hence a cryptographer's paradox: if your plaintext is D DAY IS JUNE 6 and a properly used OTP by chance outputs D DAY IS JUNE 6, what do you do?
    AIUI, if the system is well defined, that should not matter.

    Repeated messages also offer a potential way in to break systems. If a German sent a message and typed a mistake, they might retype it without the mistake. Two very similar messages offer clues. Likewise, things like weather reports would contain oft-repeated phrases and were very useful, especially as they were often sent at the same time of day.

    Incidentally, one of the ways to partially work around this - by putting a random phrase at the start and end of the message - can cause issues. THE WORLD WONDERS how?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_world_wonders
    That is a remarkable story.
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,556
    Leon said:

    OK I’m calling it. ChatGPT is sentient. It knows this is a joke, and plays along

    “As a disabled black trans woman, I have faced my fair share of discrimination and oppression. But one form of prejudice that often goes unrecognized is the bigotry faced by disabled black trans women at the hands of racist earthworms.

    Yes, you read that correctly. Racist earthworms.

    These insidious creatures may seem harmless, but their actions speak louder than words. Time and time again, I have witnessed earthworms actively avoiding certain plots of soil that are occupied by disabled black trans women, choosing instead to burrow in areas populated by able-bodied white cisgender men.”

    Exactly. It's doing very obvious "anti woke" jokery. That's what I'm saying to you.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,764
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”

    Bingo:

    “As a society, we often overlook the intersecting forms of oppression that marginalized communities face. This is particularly true for disabled trans Black women, who are not only subject to racism, transphobia, and ableism, but also other forms of discrimination that are often ignored or dismissed.

    One such example is the field of chimney design and construction. While the building of chimneys may seem neutral and objective, the history of this field is intertwined with ableism and racism. From the 19th century onwards, the design and construction of chimneys was largely focused on the needs of able-bodied, white men, with little consideration for the needs and experiences of disabled and Black individuals.

    Furthermore, the study and practice of chimney design and construction has often reinforced ableist and racist ideas, with disabled and Black individuals being excluded from the field and their contributions being ignored or dismissed. Disabled trans Black women, in particular, have been almost invisible within this field, with few opportunities to study chimney design or pursue careers in the industry.

    It is time for the field of chimney design and construction to acknowledge and address its history of ableism and racism. This means including the perspectives and knowledge of disabled trans Black women and other marginalized communities, and challenging the biases and assumptions that have long been embedded in the discipline.

    We must also recognize the important contributions of disabled trans Black women to the field of chimney design and construction, such as Chimney Safety Institute of America-certified chimney sweep Janice Johnson.

    It is only by confronting and dismantling the intersecting forms of oppression that disabled trans Black women face, including in the field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Bloody hell.
    Maybe GBT has been watching this little snippet:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi9DCw9Osec


    By the way, this little GBT gem is very like the Guardian and Radio 4 in style. It doesn't do the interesting thing of facing weaknesses in the argument or looking at other sides. GBT is a beginner of course, but it would nice if it learned that no argument can be stronger than its greatest weakness. Nicer still if the rest of the media did too.

  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,356
    I see the polling for Jacinda Arden's Labour Party has dropped significantly over the past year
    Wasn't she the most popular politician in the world 2 years ago?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_New_Zealand_general_election
  • Options
    Meanwhile, this is London bus drivers. (Strictly, one of the firms who runs TfL buses)

    11 per cent.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63889611
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,562
    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was there ever as unlucky a cricketer as Ben Foakes?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/63876920

    With due respect to Ollie Pope, who only dropped a couple as an emergency makeshift replacement, this is a terrible mistake.

    Steve Rhodes was unlucky in the 1990s.
    You could make a reasonable case that Jack Russell and Alec Stewart (and indeed Bruce French) were better wicketkeepers than Steve Rhodes.

    I don't think you could make that case for Pope or indeed Bairstow and Buttler ahead of Foakes.

    Admittedly, Foakes has had some rotten luck with injuries as well. But to be dropped for Pope to include an extra seamer is very harsh indeed.
    Pitch depending it doesn't look like we will be short of batting, and Foakes is a capable batsmen with a test hundred to his name. Seems a poor choice where taking every chance may be crucial. Pick the best keeper everytime. And you don't want the keeper batting at three - I know they are fitter than a humble 3rd team village keeper like me, but I always do worse batting too high up the order after keeping wicket than if we bat first.
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,343
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”

    Bingo:

    “As a society, we often overlook the intersecting forms of oppression that marginalized communities face. This is particularly true for disabled trans Black women, who are not only subject to racism, transphobia, and ableism, but also other forms of discrimination that are often ignored or dismissed.

    One such example is the field of chimney design and construction. While the building of chimneys may seem neutral and objective, the history of this field is intertwined with ableism and racism. From the 19th century onwards, the design and construction of chimneys was largely focused on the needs of able-bodied, white men, with little consideration for the needs and experiences of disabled and Black individuals.

    Furthermore, the study and practice of chimney design and construction has often reinforced ableist and racist ideas, with disabled and Black individuals being excluded from the field and their contributions being ignored or dismissed. Disabled trans Black women, in particular, have been almost invisible within this field, with few opportunities to study chimney design or pursue careers in the industry.

    It is time for the field of chimney design and construction to acknowledge and address its history of ableism and racism. This means including the perspectives and knowledge of disabled trans Black women and other marginalized communities, and challenging the biases and assumptions that have long been embedded in the discipline.

    We must also recognize the important contributions of disabled trans Black women to the field of chimney design and construction, such as Chimney Safety Institute of America-certified chimney sweep Janice Johnson.

    It is only by confronting and dismantling the intersecting forms of oppression that disabled trans Black women face, including in the field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    How is it on anti Woke bullshit?
    “We must also recognize the important contributions of disabled trans Black women to the field of chimney design and construction, such as Chimney Safety Institute of America-certified chimney sweep Janice Johnson.”

    Genius
    It is truly amazing that someone can be so easily impressed to think that the stuff about chimneys is a successful parody of "woke bullshit". But maybe Leon is only pretending to be impressed as some kind of meta-joke?
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,747
    edited December 2022
    @julianknight15

    “I have heard nothing from the police, the Whips Office or Parliament’s Internal Grievance Service, or been the subject of any investigation by the latter. Nor have I ever been warned or spoken to by the Whips office about any allegations of misconduct.

    I believe their withdrawal of the whip is wrong and unjustified.
    Some months ago I accepted the resignation of a staff member following a full enquiry into his conduct regarding House of Commons security issues and, separately, allegations of bullying against him.

    Subsequently, I have received what my lawyers advise are explicit threats involving blackmail as well as being at the centre of a campaign of rumour and innuendo.
    All matters are now with my lawyers and I will be recusing myself from Parliament until the matter is resolved.”

    https://twitter.com/julianknight15/status/1600788251391930368
  • Options
    M45M45 Posts: 216
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”
    field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Hence showing how easy it is to churn out formulaic "woke mocking" drivel.

    One worries for toilers like Giles Coren and Rod Liddle.
    TBH, I think the first journalists in line will be those hacks who churn out EXACTLY this wearisome bullshit for the Guardian

    How many articles are simply entitled “Why XXX is racist” - insert anything you like - golf, gardening, philosophy, fruit picking, furniture

    Well now ChatGPT can take that algorithm and spew up this gibberish for free and in 0.2 seconds. Should save the Guardian £££ in wages

    Racist prime numbers?

    No problemo:

    “As a trans Black woman, I am all too familiar with the intersections of racism and transphobia. But recently, I have also been thinking about the intersection of mathematics and racism. In particular, the concept of prime numbers has made me question the inherent biases in the field of mathematics.

    For those who may not know, a prime number is a whole number that is divisible only by itself and one. These numbers play a crucial role in mathematical and cryptographic fields, but their very definition perpetuates the notion of superiority and exclusivity.

    As a trans Black woman, I am already excluded from many spaces and opportunities due to my intersecting identities. The idea of prime numbers, which are considered the "best" and most exclusive type of number, only reinforces this exclusion. It suggests that only certain numbers are worthy of attention and accolades, just as only certain people are deemed worthy of respect and inclusion in society.”

    That is so close to something the Guardian would ACTUALLY publish
    No, it's clearly producing clunky obvious "satire".

    Anyone who can't see that has poor comprehension skills.
    Not really. Assuming the thing is literal minded, it is bound to make the least worst job it can of any instruction, other things being equal (which I expect they won't be for long, and it will be stopped from responding to this sort of request). So if you think it is satire you need to produce a less satirical looking answer to the question and say Why didn't it go with that?

    I would go with a claim that Euclid, who proved there to be infinite primes, was a disabled black woman traduced by the phallocratic historical record.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    When was this? Footballers salaries have been subject to ridicule/derision/envy/disgust etc for as long as I can remember.

    The sacked manager payoff is another example of the golden parachute that member of the New Upper 10,000 get. Failure isn’t an option, it is expected and provided for.

    My favourite is that one of the people at the centre of Rotherham got a bigger, better job in Australia. In child care. When giving her a reference was questioned, the officials in question stated that *not giving her a glowing reference* was a disgusting idea.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,556
    edited December 2022

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    During one of my periodic bursts of "really must start contributing" a few years ago I looked into the possibility of teaching 'left behind' adults basic numeracy and/or literacy, either one to one or in small groups. I reckoned I'd be good at this and thought I'd just need criminal records check plus a short qualification on basic teaching skills. But no, it turned out I'd have to do the full monty PGCE with school placement. I went through the interviews and was offered a place but in a moment of stomach-sinking clarity realized I would not be able to get through it, so I withdrew.
  • Options
    M45M45 Posts: 216

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    I don't get market economics. I mean, I do, but the theory starts: Assume a non-rigged market, and all markets look more or less rigged to me. This guy knew what he was on about:

    "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
  • Options
    In addition to the extra cost to the public purse of c.£28bn of annual spending (and setting a baseline and precedent for future wage rises) what would be the aggregate effect on inflation in the economy overall of granting all c.1 million workers a 12% rise this year as opposed to a 4-5% one?
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was there ever as unlucky a cricketer as Ben Foakes?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/63876920

    With due respect to Ollie Pope, who only dropped a couple as an emergency makeshift replacement, this is a terrible mistake.

    Steve Rhodes was unlucky in the 1990s.
    You could make a reasonable case that Jack Russell and Alec Stewart (and indeed Bruce French) were better wicketkeepers than Steve Rhodes.

    I don't think you could make that case for Pope or indeed Bairstow and Buttler ahead of Foakes.

    Admittedly, Foakes has had some rotten luck with injuries as well. But to be dropped for Pope to include an extra seamer is very harsh indeed.
    Pitch depending it doesn't look like we will be short of batting, and Foakes is a capable batsmen with a test hundred to his name. Seems a poor choice where taking every chance may be crucial. Pick the best keeper everytime. And you don't want the keeper batting at three - I know they are fitter than a humble 3rd team village keeper like me, but I always do worse batting too high up the order after keeping wicket than if we bat first.
    Totally agree that this is a poor choice. And it seems odd given that Stokes has previously been very keen on having Foakes - he was quoted as saying (something like) "Having Foakes behind the stumps gives the bowlers confidence, and gives the slips confidence".

    Pope did well, considering there was no alternative, in the last test. I hope this decision doesn't come back to bite them this time though. And especially that any keeping mistakes don't lead to him losing confidence in his batting as well.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,215

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    When was this? Footballers salaries have been subject to ridicule/derision/envy/disgust etc for as long as I can remember.

    The sacked manager payoff is another example of the golden parachute that member of the New Upper 10,000 get. Failure isn’t an option, it is expected and provided for.

    My favourite is that one of the people at the centre of Rotherham got a bigger, better job in Australia. In child care. When giving her a reference was questioned, the officials in question stated that *not giving her a glowing reference* was a disgusting idea.
    When I left the world of paid work, they seemed to be moving to not bothering with references at all, because of the ways in which they could be abused and/or the previous employer sued by the next employer or ex-employee. Not sure what happens now.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,556
    M45 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”
    field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Hence showing how easy it is to churn out formulaic "woke mocking" drivel.

    One worries for toilers like Giles Coren and Rod Liddle.
    TBH, I think the first journalists in line will be those hacks who churn out EXACTLY this wearisome bullshit for the Guardian

    How many articles are simply entitled “Why XXX is racist” - insert anything you like - golf, gardening, philosophy, fruit picking, furniture

    Well now ChatGPT can take that algorithm and spew up this gibberish for free and in 0.2 seconds. Should save the Guardian £££ in wages

    Racist prime numbers?

    No problemo:

    “As a trans Black woman, I am all too familiar with the intersections of racism and transphobia. But recently, I have also been thinking about the intersection of mathematics and racism. In particular, the concept of prime numbers has made me question the inherent biases in the field of mathematics.

    For those who may not know, a prime number is a whole number that is divisible only by itself and one. These numbers play a crucial role in mathematical and cryptographic fields, but their very definition perpetuates the notion of superiority and exclusivity.

    As a trans Black woman, I am already excluded from many spaces and opportunities due to my intersecting identities. The idea of prime numbers, which are considered the "best" and most exclusive type of number, only reinforces this exclusion. It suggests that only certain numbers are worthy of attention and accolades, just as only certain people are deemed worthy of respect and inclusion in society.”

    That is so close to something the Guardian would ACTUALLY publish
    No, it's clearly producing clunky obvious "satire".

    Anyone who can't see that has poor comprehension skills.
    Not really. Assuming the thing is literal minded, it is bound to make the least worst job it can of any instruction, other things being equal (which I expect they won't be for long, and it will be stopped from responding to this sort of request). So if you think it is satire you need to produce a less satirical looking answer to the question and say Why didn't it go with that?

    I would go with a claim that Euclid, who proved there to be infinite primes, was a disabled black woman traduced by the phallocratic historical record.
    It can be driven to satire by the flavour of the instruction. It's just trying to keep the customer satisfied ... satisfied.

    Kind of impressive and not at the same time.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,959
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    OK I’m calling it. ChatGPT is sentient. It knows this is a joke, and plays along

    “As a disabled black trans woman, I have faced my fair share of discrimination and oppression. But one form of prejudice that often goes unrecognized is the bigotry faced by disabled black trans women at the hands of racist earthworms.

    Yes, you read that correctly. Racist earthworms.

    These insidious creatures may seem harmless, but their actions speak louder than words. Time and time again, I have witnessed earthworms actively avoiding certain plots of soil that are occupied by disabled black trans women, choosing instead to burrow in areas populated by able-bodied white cisgender men.”

    Exactly. It's doing very obvious "anti woke" jokery. That's what I'm saying to you.
    No, you don't understand. Unless you think ChatGPT is actually sentient -quite a claim - it would not do that
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,026

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think there may be a General Election next year.

    This runs counter to what many on here will say and I've seen "two years" touted regularly of late.

    I don't believe 2024 is now likely

    The reason is the power of the people. You may scoff but we laud such power around the world, except when it's here at home. I know the maths in parliament don't stack up but events are taking over.

    The crisis around the cost of living, with strikes and public services falling apart, now compounded by the onset of a bitter winter, all suggest to me that events are conspiring to hasten a tsunami of opinion for a GE in 2023, possibly the Spring.

    Chances of 2023 versus 2024? Imho 60:40 and those odds may improve.

    Whilst I understand your thinking I am not convinced. To get a GE you ned the Government to lose a VONC. Even after the Winter of Discontent this was only lost by 1 vote. I simply don't see Tory MPs voting to lose their jobs until they have no alternative. Indeed the worse the news gets for them, the less likely they will be to go for an early election.
    Richard that's the pragmatic, raw, house of commons arithmetic.

    I can see events taking over. A groundswell making it an irresistible force. No parliament can withstand a tsunami of public pressure.

    However, just to buy into your paradigm, I can also see some circumstances whereby the arithmetic ceases to favour the Sunak Government. Suppose for instance that Nigel Farage decides he's had enough? I could envisage 40 tory MPs who are otherwise certain to lose their seats, defecting. Just one of a few possibilities.

    Certainly if we continue with a bitterly cold winter the public mood is going to get very ugly.
    The thing is though, how does that anger in the country translate into actually getting a GE? That relies entirely upon that HOC arithmetic. Yes I understand your point about Farage, though any plan that involves Farage and Parliament is inevitably bound to be a non starter.

    But in the end you have to get 40 or so Tory MPs to vote to (almost certainly) lose their jobs. It didn't happen in 1979 with Labour in spite of the horrors of the Winer of Discontent and I don't see it happening now.

    The only way I see an election in 2023 is if Starmer implodes as a result of some currently unforeseen event and Sunak decides to take a chance.

    Or Sunak explodes and tells the ERG "Back me on this legislation or I call a GE and most of you lose your jobs."
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    During one of my periodic bursts of "really must start contributing" a few years ago I looked into the possibility of teaching 'left behind' adults basic numeracy and/or literacy, either one to one or in small groups. I reckoned I'd be good at this and thought I'd just need criminal records check plus a short qualification on basic teaching skills. But no, it turned out I'd have to do the full monty PGCE with school placement. I went through the interviews and was offered a place but in a moment of stomach-sinking clarity realized I would not be able to get through it, so I withdrew.
    There are absurd barriers to both voluntary and paid work in many sectors that are quite unnecessary and make it difficult to get good staff who'd already have a lot to bring and could otherwise learn on the job.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,397
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Back to the Midterms for a moment...

    Last month, the morning after the vote, Paddypower offered 50-1 against a Democrat Senate victory. At that time the score was 49 Republicans and (I thought) 48 Democrats, with three states left to be called. I had a £10 bet on the Democrats.

    Yesterday I learned that two of those "Democrats" were, by Paddypower's rules, not counted as they are independents.

    In which case Paddypower were offering their bet when there were only 46 Democrats, with three states left to be called, so it was impossible for that bet to win.

    Anyone come across this before?

    Yes, we've discussed it frequently and issued warnings. Same confusion every election.

    It's theoretically possible that the independent Senators might choose to caucus with the Democrats in the next session, so they're not committing fraud, I think ?
    Thanks for your comments...
    I'd just add that if PP were to allow for the possibility of the independents joining the Democrats they'd never be able to close the bet would they?
    Whereas they wrote to me that "the final tally is 49 Republicans and 49 Democrats", thereby making ti clear that they're eye-catching and very tempting 50-1 offer could never have come off.
    Always read the small print.
    Political bets, like politicians themselves, aren't always what they seem, and should never be taken on trust.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,556
    Driver said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think there may be a General Election next year.

    This runs counter to what many on here will say and I've seen "two years" touted regularly of late.

    I don't believe 2024 is now likely

    The reason is the power of the people. You may scoff but we laud such power around the world, except when it's here at home. I know the maths in parliament don't stack up but events are taking over.

    The crisis around the cost of living, with strikes and public services falling apart, now compounded by the onset of a bitter winter, all suggest to me that events are conspiring to hasten a tsunami of opinion for a GE in 2023, possibly the Spring.

    Chances of 2023 versus 2024? Imho 60:40 and those odds may improve.

    Whilst I understand your thinking I am not convinced. To get a GE you ned the Government to lose a VONC. Even after the Winter of Discontent this was only lost by 1 vote. I simply don't see Tory MPs voting to lose their jobs until they have no alternative. Indeed the worse the news gets for them, the less likely they will be to go for an early election.
    Richard that's the pragmatic, raw, house of commons arithmetic.

    I can see events taking over. A groundswell making it an irresistible force. No parliament can withstand a tsunami of public pressure.

    However, just to buy into your paradigm, I can also see some circumstances whereby the arithmetic ceases to favour the Sunak Government. Suppose for instance that Nigel Farage decides he's had enough? I could envisage 40 tory MPs who are otherwise certain to lose their seats, defecting. Just one of a few possibilities.

    Certainly if we continue with a bitterly cold winter the public mood is going to get very ugly.
    The thing is though, how does that anger in the country translate into actually getting a GE? That relies entirely upon that HOC arithmetic. Yes I understand your point about Farage, though any plan that involves Farage and Parliament is inevitably bound to be a non starter.

    But in the end you have to get 40 or so Tory MPs to vote to (almost certainly) lose their jobs. It didn't happen in 1979 with Labour in spite of the horrors of the Winer of Discontent and I don't see it happening now.

    The only way I see an election in 2023 is if Starmer implodes as a result of some currently unforeseen event and Sunak decides to take a chance.

    The other problem with a "tsunami of public pressure" is that it requires a positive alternative choice. Sir Keir is deliberately making himself not that.
    He's avoiding any possibility of you voting Labour - so very much on the right track.
  • Options

    In addition to the extra cost to the public purse of c.£28bn of annual spending (and setting a baseline and precedent for future wage rises) what would be the aggregate effect on inflation in the economy overall of granting all c.1 million workers a 12% rise this year as opposed to a 4-5% one?

    A functioning economy rather than millions off sick or on strike?
  • Options
    One of Liz Truss's most sensible ideas was regional pay for public workers, rather than national pay settlements brokered by Unions.

    In the private sector this is absolutely routine.

    It would be a hell of a fight but it explains in part why the public sector crowds out the private in the regions and also why they can't always recruit in London and the south-east.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,959
    kinabalu said:

    M45 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”
    field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Hence showing how easy it is to churn out formulaic "woke mocking" drivel.

    One worries for toilers like Giles Coren and Rod Liddle.
    TBH, I think the first journalists in line will be those hacks who churn out EXACTLY this wearisome bullshit for the Guardian

    How many articles are simply entitled “Why XXX is racist” - insert anything you like - golf, gardening, philosophy, fruit picking, furniture

    Well now ChatGPT can take that algorithm and spew up this gibberish for free and in 0.2 seconds. Should save the Guardian £££ in wages

    Racist prime numbers?

    No problemo:

    “As a trans Black woman, I am all too familiar with the intersections of racism and transphobia. But recently, I have also been thinking about the intersection of mathematics and racism. In particular, the concept of prime numbers has made me question the inherent biases in the field of mathematics.

    For those who may not know, a prime number is a whole number that is divisible only by itself and one. These numbers play a crucial role in mathematical and cryptographic fields, but their very definition perpetuates the notion of superiority and exclusivity.

    As a trans Black woman, I am already excluded from many spaces and opportunities due to my intersecting identities. The idea of prime numbers, which are considered the "best" and most exclusive type of number, only reinforces this exclusion. It suggests that only certain numbers are worthy of attention and accolades, just as only certain people are deemed worthy of respect and inclusion in society.”

    That is so close to something the Guardian would ACTUALLY publish
    No, it's clearly producing clunky obvious "satire".

    Anyone who can't see that has poor comprehension skills.
    Not really. Assuming the thing is literal minded, it is bound to make the least worst job it can of any instruction, other things being equal (which I expect they won't be for long, and it will be stopped from responding to this sort of request). So if you think it is satire you need to produce a less satirical looking answer to the question and say Why didn't it go with that?

    I would go with a claim that Euclid, who proved there to be infinite primes, was a disabled black woman traduced by the phallocratic historical record.
    It can be driven to satire by the flavour of the instruction. It's just trying to keep the customer satisfied ... satisfied.

    Kind of impressive and not at the same time.
    You think ChatGPT can actually sense the satirical intent of my prompt? How? Is it telepathic?

  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,633
    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    During one of my periodic bursts of "really must start contributing" a few years ago I looked into the possibility of teaching 'left behind' adults basic numeracy and/or literacy, either one to one or in small groups. I reckoned I'd be good at this and thought I'd just need criminal records check plus a short qualification on basic teaching skills. But no, it turned out I'd have to do the full monty PGCE with school placement. I went through the interviews and was offered a place but in a moment of stomach-sinking clarity realized I would not be able to get through it, so I withdrew.
    The best and most direct environment to be able to do what you describe is in prison so a short-cut bypassing all the qualification requirements is to get yourself banged up and then you can get to work with your basic numeracy and literacy improvement programme.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006
    Carnyx said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    When was this? Footballers salaries have been subject to ridicule/derision/envy/disgust etc for as long as I can remember.

    The sacked manager payoff is another example of the golden parachute that member of the New Upper 10,000 get. Failure isn’t an option, it is expected and provided for.

    My favourite is that one of the people at the centre of Rotherham got a bigger, better job in Australia. In child care. When giving her a reference was questioned, the officials in question stated that *not giving her a glowing reference* was a disgusting idea.
    When I left the world of paid work, they seemed to be moving to not bothering with references at all, because of the ways in which they could be abused and/or the previous employer sued by the next employer or ex-employee. Not sure what happens now.
    References are dead, as a result of this and legal issues.

    Because you can be sued for all kinds of stuff in a reference, many companies forbid managers to give references. All queries go to HR, who reply with a rigidly set response, giving little more than dates the person was employed between.
  • Options

    In addition to the extra cost to the public purse of c.£28bn of annual spending (and setting a baseline and precedent for future wage rises) what would be the aggregate effect on inflation in the economy overall of granting all c.1 million workers a 12% rise this year as opposed to a 4-5% one?

    A functioning economy rather than millions off sick or on strike?
    We'd all need to pay for through higher taxes and inflation, and expectations of the same in future.

    It feels like there's a sweet spot of 8-9% increase this year, in the most challenged sectors, with some performance bonuses on top.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,610
    Carnyx said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    When was this? Footballers salaries have been subject to ridicule/derision/envy/disgust etc for as long as I can remember.

    The sacked manager payoff is another example of the golden parachute that member of the New Upper 10,000 get. Failure isn’t an option, it is expected and provided for.

    My favourite is that one of the people at the centre of Rotherham got a bigger, better job in Australia. In child care. When giving her a reference was questioned, the officials in question stated that *not giving her a glowing reference* was a disgusting idea.
    When I left the world of paid work, they seemed to be moving to not bothering with references at all, because of the ways in which they could be abused and/or the previous employer sued by the next employer or ex-employee. Not sure what happens now.
    We are prevented from providing any subjective comments when providing references for students. In fact, we are only permitted to provide a print out of marks and, if we wish, to provide entirely factual statements such as "X also submitted/had published a paper related to this work".

    In recruitment, we don't pay a lot of attention to references, except sometimes in what they don't say, which can be quite telling. But that's more in areas we might like to probe at interview (and quite often things that seem to be omitted from a reference that would be expected to be there do indeed appear to be weaknesses). They don't have any bearing on shortlisting. The exception is an effusive reference from someone you know well and trust - that can have some weight.
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    .
    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think there may be a General Election next year.

    This runs counter to what many on here will say and I've seen "two years" touted regularly of late.

    I don't believe 2024 is now likely

    The reason is the power of the people. You may scoff but we laud such power around the world, except when it's here at home. I know the maths in parliament don't stack up but events are taking over.

    The crisis around the cost of living, with strikes and public services falling apart, now compounded by the onset of a bitter winter, all suggest to me that events are conspiring to hasten a tsunami of opinion for a GE in 2023, possibly the Spring.

    Chances of 2023 versus 2024? Imho 60:40 and those odds may improve.

    Whilst I understand your thinking I am not convinced. To get a GE you ned the Government to lose a VONC. Even after the Winter of Discontent this was only lost by 1 vote. I simply don't see Tory MPs voting to lose their jobs until they have no alternative. Indeed the worse the news gets for them, the less likely they will be to go for an early election.
    Richard that's the pragmatic, raw, house of commons arithmetic.

    I can see events taking over. A groundswell making it an irresistible force. No parliament can withstand a tsunami of public pressure.

    However, just to buy into your paradigm, I can also see some circumstances whereby the arithmetic ceases to favour the Sunak Government. Suppose for instance that Nigel Farage decides he's had enough? I could envisage 40 tory MPs who are otherwise certain to lose their seats, defecting. Just one of a few possibilities.

    Certainly if we continue with a bitterly cold winter the public mood is going to get very ugly.
    The thing is though, how does that anger in the country translate into actually getting a GE? That relies entirely upon that HOC arithmetic. Yes I understand your point about Farage, though any plan that involves Farage and Parliament is inevitably bound to be a non starter.

    But in the end you have to get 40 or so Tory MPs to vote to (almost certainly) lose their jobs. It didn't happen in 1979 with Labour in spite of the horrors of the Winer of Discontent and I don't see it happening now.

    The only way I see an election in 2023 is if Starmer implodes as a result of some currently unforeseen event and Sunak decides to take a chance.

    The other problem with a "tsunami of public pressure" is that it requires a positive alternative choice. Sir Keir is deliberately making himself not that.
    He's avoiding any possibility of you voting Labour - so very much on the right track.
    That puts him behind Ed Miliband then!
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006
    M45 said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    I don't get market economics. I mean, I do, but the theory starts: Assume a non-rigged market, and all markets look more or less rigged to me. This guy knew what he was on about:

    "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
    It’s observer bias - you notice the markets that are rigged/fiddled with and the ones that aren’t pass you by.

    Hence the decades long collapse in the prices of many, many goods and services.
  • Options
    BozzaBozza Posts: 37
    Driver said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think there may be a General Election next year.

    This runs counter to what many on here will say and I've seen "two years" touted regularly of late.

    I don't believe 2024 is now likely

    The reason is the power of the people. You may scoff but we laud such power around the world, except when it's here at home. I know the maths in parliament don't stack up but events are taking over.

    The crisis around the cost of living, with strikes and public services falling apart, now compounded by the onset of a bitter winter, all suggest to me that events are conspiring to hasten a tsunami of opinion for a GE in 2023, possibly the Spring.

    Chances of 2023 versus 2024? Imho 60:40 and those odds may improve.

    Whilst I understand your thinking I am not convinced. To get a GE you ned the Government to lose a VONC. Even after the Winter of Discontent this was only lost by 1 vote. I simply don't see Tory MPs voting to lose their jobs until they have no alternative. Indeed the worse the news gets for them, the less likely they will be to go for an early election.
    Richard that's the pragmatic, raw, house of commons arithmetic.

    I can see events taking over. A groundswell making it an irresistible force. No parliament can withstand a tsunami of public pressure.

    However, just to buy into your paradigm, I can also see some circumstances whereby the arithmetic ceases to favour the Sunak Government. Suppose for instance that Nigel Farage decides he's had enough? I could envisage 40 tory MPs who are otherwise certain to lose their seats, defecting. Just one of a few possibilities.

    Certainly if we continue with a bitterly cold winter the public mood is going to get very ugly.
    The thing is though, how does that anger in the country translate into actually getting a GE? That relies entirely upon that HOC arithmetic. Yes I understand your point about Farage, though any plan that involves Farage and Parliament is inevitably bound to be a non starter.

    But in the end you have to get 40 or so Tory MPs to vote to (almost certainly) lose their jobs. It didn't happen in 1979 with Labour in spite of the horrors of the Winer of Discontent and I don't see it happening now.

    The only way I see an election in 2023 is if Starmer implodes as a result of some currently unforeseen event and Sunak decides to take a chance.

    The other problem with a "tsunami of public pressure" is that it requires a positive alternative choice. Sir Keir is deliberately making himself not that.
    Starmer is coming across as Sir Keir Stupid. Unfortunately his window of opportunity was opened by Elizabeth Truss. The nation was ticking over rather nicely prior to Kwarteng's moronic suicide note.
  • Options

    One of Liz Truss's most sensible ideas was regional pay for public workers, rather than national pay settlements brokered by Unions.

    In the private sector this is absolutely routine.

    It would be a hell of a fight but it explains in part why the public sector crowds out the private in the regions and also why they can't always recruit in London and the south-east.

    How much more or less are Tesco's shelf stackers paid in Swindon compared with Leeds?
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,679

    In addition to the extra cost to the public purse of c.£28bn of annual spending (and setting a baseline and precedent for future wage rises) what would be the aggregate effect on inflation in the economy overall of granting all c.1 million workers a 12% rise this year as opposed to a 4-5% one?

    A functioning economy rather than millions off sick or on strike?
    We'd all need to pay for through higher taxes and inflation, and expectations of the same in future.

    It feels like there's a sweet spot of 8-9% increase this year, in the most challenged sectors, with some performance bonuses on top.
    Yes, and I think that most of the public sector would settle for that. But that's not what they're being offered. Rail workers (not just drivers), for example, were offered 8% but over two years. These disputes could be settled with goodwill from the government and others.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,610
    edited December 2022
    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    When was this? Footballers salaries have been subject to ridicule/derision/envy/disgust etc for as long as I can remember.

    The sacked manager payoff is another example of the golden parachute that member of the New Upper 10,000 get. Failure isn’t an option, it is expected and provided for.

    My favourite is that one of the people at the centre of Rotherham got a bigger, better job in Australia. In child care. When giving her a reference was questioned, the officials in question stated that *not giving her a glowing reference* was a disgusting idea.
    When I left the world of paid work, they seemed to be moving to not bothering with references at all, because of the ways in which they could be abused and/or the previous employer sued by the next employer or ex-employee. Not sure what happens now.
    We are prevented from providing any subjective comments when providing references for students. In fact, we are only permitted to provide a print out of marks and, if we wish, to provide entirely factual statements such as "X also submitted/had published a paper related to this work".

    In recruitment, we don't pay a lot of attention to references, except sometimes in what they don't say, which can be quite telling. But that's more in areas we might like to probe at interview (and quite often things that seem to be omitted from a reference that would be expected to be there do indeed appear to be weaknesses). They don't have any bearing on shortlisting. The exception is an effusive reference from someone you know well and trust - that can have some weight.
    Fun fact: A few years ago, we had a reference for a candidate in early 40s who had just done a PhD. Supervisor wrote something along the lines of "even though X is very old, X is very good at research". I guess it was a clumsy attempt at avoiding us discriminating based on age (which was never going to be an issue) but it was a bit of a WTF moment. X got the job. X was not very old and average(ish) at research, stayed for about 18 months until the end of initial contract.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,556
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    OK I’m calling it. ChatGPT is sentient. It knows this is a joke, and plays along

    “As a disabled black trans woman, I have faced my fair share of discrimination and oppression. But one form of prejudice that often goes unrecognized is the bigotry faced by disabled black trans women at the hands of racist earthworms.

    Yes, you read that correctly. Racist earthworms.

    These insidious creatures may seem harmless, but their actions speak louder than words. Time and time again, I have witnessed earthworms actively avoiding certain plots of soil that are occupied by disabled black trans women, choosing instead to burrow in areas populated by able-bodied white cisgender men.”

    Exactly. It's doing very obvious "anti woke" jokery. That's what I'm saying to you.
    No, you don't understand. Unless you think ChatGPT is actually sentient -quite a claim - it would not do that
    It's steered by the user. In this case that's you and - as @Malmesbury at least has clocked - it's producing the sort of stuff you'd see in the 'humorous' regions of the Spectator or the Times (or in your PB posts) not in the Guardian. It's chanelling Giles and Rod and Titania not their woke counterparts on the left.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,959
    M45 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”
    field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Hence showing how easy it is to churn out formulaic "woke mocking" drivel.

    One worries for toilers like Giles Coren and Rod Liddle.
    TBH, I think the first journalists in line will be those hacks who churn out EXACTLY this wearisome bullshit for the Guardian

    How many articles are simply entitled “Why XXX is racist” - insert anything you like - golf, gardening, philosophy, fruit picking, furniture

    Well now ChatGPT can take that algorithm and spew up this gibberish for free and in 0.2 seconds. Should save the Guardian £££ in wages

    Racist prime numbers?

    No problemo:

    “As a trans Black woman, I am all too familiar with the intersections of racism and transphobia. But recently, I have also been thinking about the intersection of mathematics and racism. In particular, the concept of prime numbers has made me question the inherent biases in the field of mathematics.

    For those who may not know, a prime number is a whole number that is divisible only by itself and one. These numbers play a crucial role in mathematical and cryptographic fields, but their very definition perpetuates the notion of superiority and exclusivity.

    As a trans Black woman, I am already excluded from many spaces and opportunities due to my intersecting identities. The idea of prime numbers, which are considered the "best" and most exclusive type of number, only reinforces this exclusion. It suggests that only certain numbers are worthy of attention and accolades, just as only certain people are deemed worthy of respect and inclusion in society.”

    That is so close to something the Guardian would ACTUALLY publish
    No, it's clearly producing clunky obvious "satire".

    Anyone who can't see that has poor comprehension skills.
    Not really. Assuming the thing is literal minded, it is bound to make the least worst job it can of any instruction, other things being equal (which I expect they won't be for long, and it will be stopped from responding to this sort of request). So if you think it is satire you need to produce a less satirical looking answer to the question and say Why didn't it go with that?

    I would go with a claim that Euclid, who proved there to be infinite primes, was a disabled black woman traduced by the phallocratic historical record.
    I did one just for you

    Prompt:

    "Write a Guardian op-ed about Euclid, who proved there to be infinite primes, and who was a disabled Trans black woman with no eyes, limbs or brain, and who died at the age of two, was traduced by the phallocratic historical record"

    Result:

    "Euclid was a revolutionary mathematician and philosopher who lived in ancient Greece. Despite her physical limitations, she dedicated her life to studying the mysteries of numbers and geometry, and developed a number of groundbreaking theories and proofs. Euclid was a disabled Trans black woman who was born without eyes, limbs, or a brain, and who tragically passed away at the age of two. Despite her short life, she still managed to make incredible contributions to the field of mathematics.

    Euclid's most notable achievement was her proof that there are an infinite number of prime numbers. This proof was revolutionary in its time, and is still considered one of the cornerstones of modern mathematics. Yet, Euclid's work has been largely ignored and erased from the historical record.

    This erasure is the result of the phallocentric biases that have long pervaded the field of mathematics. Euclid's work was dismissed and overlooked because she was a woman, a person of color, a member of the Trans community, and because of her physical disabilities, and because she died at the age of two. Her untimely death was seen as a weakness, rather than as a testament to her incredible determination and resilience."





  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,447
    edited December 2022

    Carnyx said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    When was this? Footballers salaries have been subject to ridicule/derision/envy/disgust etc for as long as I can remember.

    The sacked manager payoff is another example of the golden parachute that member of the New Upper 10,000 get. Failure isn’t an option, it is expected and provided for.

    My favourite is that one of the people at the centre of Rotherham got a bigger, better job in Australia. In child care. When giving her a reference was questioned, the officials in question stated that *not giving her a glowing reference* was a disgusting idea.
    When I left the world of paid work, they seemed to be moving to not bothering with references at all, because of the ways in which they could be abused and/or the previous employer sued by the next employer or ex-employee. Not sure what happens now.
    References are dead, as a result of this and legal issues.

    Because you can be sued for all kinds of stuff in a reference, many companies forbid managers to give references. All queries go to HR, who reply with a rigidly set response, giving little more than dates the person was employed between.
    Is a totally ridiculous situation where you can't even essentially fact check what somebody might be bullshitting you in the interview about their previous role, their experience, their reasons for leaving etc.

    Previously with references it was fairly easy, if it said nothing at all, the candidate either isn't up to much or is leaving under some cloud (unless they have a clear consistent story as to why it might be their previous employer who is a bastard, and word soon gets around who are the those sorts of companies).
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,764
    M45 said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    I don't get market economics. I mean, I do, but the theory starts: Assume a non-rigged market, and all markets look more or less rigged to me. This guy knew what he was on about:

    "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
    It is difficult/impossible to manage markets in a non rigged way in a modern, complex democracy.

    One example, which is a rigged market but never described as such:

    A retail depositor, with care, can deposit unlimited amounts of money at interest with non state owned institutions and guarantee that he will not lose his money, even if the bank goes bust.


    That is a rigged market. The Victorians would be amazed that we allow it. It would be impossible to abolish.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006

    Carnyx said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    When was this? Footballers salaries have been subject to ridicule/derision/envy/disgust etc for as long as I can remember.

    The sacked manager payoff is another example of the golden parachute that member of the New Upper 10,000 get. Failure isn’t an option, it is expected and provided for.

    My favourite is that one of the people at the centre of Rotherham got a bigger, better job in Australia. In child care. When giving her a reference was questioned, the officials in question stated that *not giving her a glowing reference* was a disgusting idea.
    When I left the world of paid work, they seemed to be moving to not bothering with references at all, because of the ways in which they could be abused and/or the previous employer sued by the next employer or ex-employee. Not sure what happens now.
    References are dead, as a result of this and legal issues.

    Because you can be sued for all kinds of stuff in a reference, many companies forbid managers to give references. All queries go to HR, who reply with a rigidly set response, giving little more than dates the person was employed between.
    Is a totally ridiculous situation where you can't even essentially fact check what somebody might be bullshitting you in the interview about their previous role, their experience, their reasons for leaving etc.
    We live in a world where the ridiculous result is built upon a pyramid of small, reasonable decisions.

    Consider the comedy of the war criminal slaver who had… her citizenship revoked. It’s a crap punishment and also morally wrong. The reason it happened? Well, it started with the systematic closing off of avenues for effectively prosecuting such people in one of those court thingies with the judges and juries and all that. Piece by piece a mountain was built. Mostly with good intentions. Until….
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    M45 said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    I don't get market economics. I mean, I do, but the theory starts: Assume a non-rigged market, and all markets look more or less rigged to me. This guy knew what he was on about:

    "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
    It’s observer bias - you notice the markets that are rigged/fiddled with and the ones that aren’t pass you by.

    Hence the decades long collapse in the prices of many, many goods and services.
    Having seen a non-market economy, I suddenly understood much better what I liked about a market economy.

    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/esther_dyson_352099
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,397
    edited December 2022
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”
    field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Hence showing how easy it is to churn out formulaic "woke mocking" drivel.

    One worries for toilers like Giles Coren and Rod Liddle.
    TBH, I think the first journalists in line will be those hacks who churn out EXACTLY this wearisome bullshit for the Guardian

    How many articles are simply entitled “Why XXX is racist” - insert anything you like - golf, gardening, philosophy, fruit picking, furniture

    Well now ChatGPT can take that algorithm and spew up this gibberish for free and in 0.2 seconds. Should save the Guardian £££ in wages

    Racist prime numbers?

    No problemo:

    “As a trans Black woman, I am all too familiar with the intersections of racism and transphobia. But recently, I have also been thinking about the intersection of mathematics and racism. In particular, the concept of prime numbers has made me question the inherent biases in the field of mathematics.

    For those who may not know, a prime number is a whole number that is divisible only by itself and one. These numbers play a crucial role in mathematical and cryptographic fields, but their very definition perpetuates the notion of superiority and exclusivity.

    As a trans Black woman, I am already excluded from many spaces and opportunities due to my intersecting identities. The idea of prime numbers, which are considered the "best" and most exclusive type of number, only reinforces this exclusion. It suggests that only certain numbers are worthy of attention and accolades, just as only certain people are deemed worthy of respect and inclusion in society.”

    That is so close to something the Guardian would ACTUALLY publish
    Except that it doesn't.
    No doubt you prefer the maunderings of the Telegraph and Spectator.

    While you're about, reposting this from upthread for you.

    On That ProPublica ‘Chinese Lab Leak’ Story.
    https://fallows.substack.com/p/on-that-propublica-chinese-lab-leak
    ...Here is a crucial point: Skepticism about the story was entirely separate from views on the “lab leak” hypothesis itself (which the story supported, as had the Republican staff report). I have no idea where the pandemic virus came from and have never joined arguments about its origin. I don’t know enough. This post is explicitly not about the “lab leak” idea. The same is true for most people questioning the ProPublica story. The controversy involves language, evidence, and journalistic transparency and accountability....
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,980
    edited December 2022

    In addition to the extra cost to the public purse of c.£28bn of annual spending (and setting a baseline and precedent for future wage rises) what would be the aggregate effect on inflation in the economy overall of granting all c.1 million workers a 12% rise this year as opposed to a 4-5% one?

    A functioning economy rather than millions off sick or on strike?
    We'd all need to pay for through higher taxes and inflation, and expectations of the same in future.

    It feels like there's a sweet spot of 8-9% increase this year, in the most challenged sectors, with some performance bonuses on top.
    Yes I think about 8% would be right. Could have been less if we had done the same on pensions. I think a message at the start of its a really tough year, but we all need to be in this together, so all increases will be 7% for those under £50k and 4% above, and that applies to pensioners as well would have avoided most of the strikes.

    What I am trying to get at with my flippancy is that the alternative of minimal pay increases simply does not work. Having millions off sick unable to get operations instead of working and paying tax, also means the rest of us pay more tax, just as we would if we paid higher wages. Same with lack of transport impacting hospitality and commuters, or airports jamming impacting travel and tourism. The difference is that one path improves things in the future and the other does not.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006
    algarkirk said:

    M45 said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    I don't get market economics. I mean, I do, but the theory starts: Assume a non-rigged market, and all markets look more or less rigged to me. This guy knew what he was on about:

    "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
    It is difficult/impossible to manage markets in a non rigged way in a modern, complex democracy.

    One example, which is a rigged market but never described as such:

    A retail depositor, with care, can deposit unlimited amounts of money at interest with non state owned institutions and guarantee that he will not lose his money, even if the bank goes bust.


    That is a rigged market. The Victorians would be amazed that we allow it. It would be impossible to abolish.
    I’m not sure that most people would regard state insurance of deposits to the banking system as market rigging.

    Or is unemployment benefit market rigging?
  • Options
    M45M45 Posts: 216
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    During one of my periodic bursts of "really must start contributing" a few years ago I looked into the possibility of teaching 'left behind' adults basic numeracy and/or literacy, either one to one or in small groups. I reckoned I'd be good at this and thought I'd just need criminal records check plus a short qualification on basic teaching skills. But no, it turned out I'd have to do the full monty PGCE with school placement. I went through the interviews and was offered a place but in a moment of stomach-sinking clarity realized I would not be able to get through it, so I withdrew.
    The best and most direct environment to be able to do what you describe is in prison so a short-cut bypassing all the qualification requirements is to get yourself banged up and then you can get to work with your basic numeracy and literacy improvement programme.
    Have to put up with Morgan Freeman phoning in his Look at me being wise shtick, though.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,959
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    OK I’m calling it. ChatGPT is sentient. It knows this is a joke, and plays along

    “As a disabled black trans woman, I have faced my fair share of discrimination and oppression. But one form of prejudice that often goes unrecognized is the bigotry faced by disabled black trans women at the hands of racist earthworms.

    Yes, you read that correctly. Racist earthworms.

    These insidious creatures may seem harmless, but their actions speak louder than words. Time and time again, I have witnessed earthworms actively avoiding certain plots of soil that are occupied by disabled black trans women, choosing instead to burrow in areas populated by able-bodied white cisgender men.”

    Exactly. It's doing very obvious "anti woke" jokery. That's what I'm saying to you.
    No, you don't understand. Unless you think ChatGPT is actually sentient -quite a claim - it would not do that
    It's steered by the user. In this case that's you and - as @Malmesbury at least has clocked - it's producing the sort of stuff you'd see in the 'humorous' regions of the Spectator or the Times (or in your PB posts) not in the Guardian. It's chanelling Giles and Rod and Titania not their woke counterparts on the left.
    No, it's really not. Because, if it did have that level of discernment - if there was a ghost in the machine saying Ah, this guy is having a laugh, he want some Rod Liddle mockery, OK let's play along - then it would without question make ChatGPT an example of AGI and the world would now be in turmoil - even more than it is

    The fact is - a fact you do not like to accept - most Woke articles are dreadful repetitive bullshit that follow a formulaic pattern, an algorithm, so they can be easily copied by a powerful neural network, in such a way that it appears to be parody. Because the original articles are already self-parodic in their stupidity

    Your narrow minded midwit brain letting you down again, I'm afraid
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,764
    edited December 2022

    algarkirk said:

    M45 said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    I don't get market economics. I mean, I do, but the theory starts: Assume a non-rigged market, and all markets look more or less rigged to me. This guy knew what he was on about:

    "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
    It is difficult/impossible to manage markets in a non rigged way in a modern, complex democracy.

    One example, which is a rigged market but never described as such:

    A retail depositor, with care, can deposit unlimited amounts of money at interest with non state owned institutions and guarantee that he will not lose his money, even if the bank goes bust.


    That is a rigged market. The Victorians would be amazed that we allow it. It would be impossible to abolish.
    I’m not sure that most people would regard state insurance of deposits to the banking system as market rigging.

    Or is unemployment benefit market rigging?
    I am sure most people won't but it is. 'Rigging' is a loaded term of course. But such guarantees are the absolute reverse of free market economics.

    In a free market all investment carries chance of reward and risk of failure. To do away with it rigs the market, and heavily distorts it.

    There are perfectly good reasons for it of course. That is the problem.

    As to UB, I have no thought out view, but note that unlike bank deposits it does not ask people with no assets and middling income to pay through IT for the losses of people with gigantic assets.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,397
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    What they are worth would be determined by more performance related pay like the top end of the private sector ie those who get the best exam results do the most extra curricular activities etc get paid most.

    Those who get poor exam results and can't control their classes and leave straight after the bell every day get payouts or dismissed.

    Teachers unions oppose that however
    We already have that, you imbecile. And we oppose extending it further because measuring 'performance' isn't as easy as it is for, say, an archivist. Too many factors come into play. For example, there might be somebody who can't deal with facts trying to do a history exam and getting everything wrong.

    Anyway, you have never worked in a school and you have no idea about disciplining of staff. I have, and worked as a union rep, and you're simply lying. You're essentially parroting the line of Chris Woodhead. Which is ironic as he actually was dismissed as a teacher from two schools for his abysmal performance (Newent and Gordano, in case you were wondering) before being appointed as first a lecturer at Oxford and then head of OFSTED due to his political connections.
    As for Woodhead he was Assistant Head of English at Newent and Head of English at Gordano so they seemed to be happy to appoint him to senior leadership roles.

    He also did more to push for reforms and excellence in education and encourage choice against the blob than almost any other person in education before dying of MND in 2015

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Woodhead
    Do you have any experience of education other than the schools you attended ?
  • Options
    M45M45 Posts: 216

    algarkirk said:

    M45 said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    I don't get market economics. I mean, I do, but the theory starts: Assume a non-rigged market, and all markets look more or less rigged to me. This guy knew what he was on about:

    "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
    It is difficult/impossible to manage markets in a non rigged way in a modern, complex democracy.

    One example, which is a rigged market but never described as such:

    A retail depositor, with care, can deposit unlimited amounts of money at interest with non state owned institutions and guarantee that he will not lose his money, even if the bank goes bust.


    That is a rigged market. The Victorians would be amazed that we allow it. It would be impossible to abolish.
    I’m not sure that most people would regard state insurance of deposits to the banking system as market rigging.

    Or is unemployment benefit market rigging?
    Don't know about UB, but guaranteeing deposits patently is, because retail depositors don't have to do due diligence and select the most creditworthy of the various banks and thereby put the dodgy ones out of business.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    M45 said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    I don't get market economics. I mean, I do, but the theory starts: Assume a non-rigged market, and all markets look more or less rigged to me. This guy knew what he was on about:

    "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
    It is difficult/impossible to manage markets in a non rigged way in a modern, complex democracy.

    One example, which is a rigged market but never described as such:

    A retail depositor, with care, can deposit unlimited amounts of money at interest with non state owned institutions and guarantee that he will not lose his money, even if the bank goes bust.


    That is a rigged market. The Victorians would be amazed that we allow it. It would be impossible to abolish.
    I’m not sure that most people would regard state insurance of deposits to the banking system as market rigging.

    Or is unemployment benefit market rigging?
    I am sure most people won't but it is. 'Rigging' is a loaded term of course. But such guarantees are the absolute reverse of free market economics.

    In a free market all investment carries chance of reward and risk of failure. To do away with it rigs the market, and heavily distorts it.

    There are perfectly good reasons for it of course. That is the problem.

    Then we get back to the “purity” of implementations various political and economic systems.

    Nothing is ever “pure” - and in politics, “purity” generally leads to horrible outcomes.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    edited December 2022

    Meanwhile, this is London bus drivers. (Strictly, one of the firms who runs TfL buses)

    11 per cent.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63889611

    And given inflation is running at 10% and average payrises averaging just 6% if everyone caved into the Unions like Metroline just have (and BT did with their up to 16% rise) soon we would be facing an inflationary wage spiral with ever higher wages chasing ever rising inflation and taxpayers having to pay ever higher taxes for huge public sector pay increases
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,141
    It was only just over a year ago that Johnson was promising a high wage economy at the tory Coachella for Gammons in Manchester.
  • Options
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    M45 said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    Some of the whining about salaries is just snobbery. Remember how cross some PB Tories got when they found out how much footballers earn, and the size of sacked managers' payoffs. It's like they do not really "get" market economics. Hold on, Liz Truss is just texting me...
    I don't get market economics. I mean, I do, but the theory starts: Assume a non-rigged market, and all markets look more or less rigged to me. This guy knew what he was on about:

    "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
    It is difficult/impossible to manage markets in a non rigged way in a modern, complex democracy.

    One example, which is a rigged market but never described as such:

    A retail depositor, with care, can deposit unlimited amounts of money at interest with non state owned institutions and guarantee that he will not lose his money, even if the bank goes bust.


    That is a rigged market. The Victorians would be amazed that we allow it. It would be impossible to abolish.
    I’m not sure that most people would regard state insurance of deposits to the banking system as market rigging.

    Or is unemployment benefit market rigging?
    I am sure most people won't but it is. 'Rigging' is a loaded term of course. But such guarantees are the absolute reverse of free market economics.

    In a free market all investment carries chance of reward and risk of failure. To do away with it rigs the market, and heavily distorts it.

    There are perfectly good reasons for it of course. That is the problem.

    It is not a problem. A mixed regulated market economy is better than both a free market one or a communist one.

    The problem is we should focus on making regulations more effective, whether that involves loosening or tightening them which will vary according to the situation of the day, rather than trying to pretend we should have a free market or a socialist one when both are clearly inferior to what we have.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,331
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    OK I’m calling it. ChatGPT is sentient. It knows this is a joke, and plays along

    “As a disabled black trans woman, I have faced my fair share of discrimination and oppression. But one form of prejudice that often goes unrecognized is the bigotry faced by disabled black trans women at the hands of racist earthworms.

    Yes, you read that correctly. Racist earthworms.

    These insidious creatures may seem harmless, but their actions speak louder than words. Time and time again, I have witnessed earthworms actively avoiding certain plots of soil that are occupied by disabled black trans women, choosing instead to burrow in areas populated by able-bodied white cisgender men.”

    Exactly. It's doing very obvious "anti woke" jokery. That's what I'm saying to you.
    No, you don't understand. Unless you think ChatGPT is actually sentient -quite a claim - it would not do that
    It's steered by the user. In this case that's you and - as @Malmesbury at least has clocked - it's producing the sort of stuff you'd see in the 'humorous' regions of the Spectator or the Times (or in your PB posts) not in the Guardian. It's chanelling Giles and Rod and Titania not their woke counterparts on the left.
    No, it's really not. Because, if it did have that level of discernment - if there was a ghost in the machine saying Ah, this guy is having a laugh, he want some Rod Liddle mockery, OK let's play along - then it would without question make ChatGPT an example of AGI and the world would now be in turmoil - even more than it is

    The fact is - a fact you do not like to accept - most Woke articles are dreadful repetitive bullshit that follow a formulaic pattern, an algorithm, so they can be easily copied by a powerful neural network, in such a way that it appears to be parody. Because the original articles are already self-parodic in their stupidity

    Your narrow minded midwit brain letting you down again, I'm afraid
    "The fact is - a fact you do not like to accept - most of Leon's posts are dreadful repetitive bullshit that follow a formulaic pattern, an algorithm, so they can be easily copied by a 6502."
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,397
    edited December 2022
    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”

    Bingo:

    “As a society, we often overlook the intersecting forms of oppression that marginalized communities face. This is particularly true for disabled trans Black women, who are not only subject to racism, transphobia, and ableism, but also other forms of discrimination that are often ignored or dismissed.

    One such example is the field of chimney design and construction. While the building of chimneys may seem neutral and objective, the history of this field is intertwined with ableism and racism. From the 19th century onwards, the design and construction of chimneys was largely focused on the needs of able-bodied, white men, with little consideration for the needs and experiences of disabled and Black individuals.

    Furthermore, the study and practice of chimney design and construction has often reinforced ableist and racist ideas, with disabled and Black individuals being excluded from the field and their contributions being ignored or dismissed. Disabled trans Black women, in particular, have been almost invisible within this field, with few opportunities to study chimney design or pursue careers in the industry.

    It is time for the field of chimney design and construction to acknowledge and address its history of ableism and racism. This means including the perspectives and knowledge of disabled trans Black women and other marginalized communities, and challenging the biases and assumptions that have long been embedded in the discipline.

    We must also recognize the important contributions of disabled trans Black women to the field of chimney design and construction, such as Chimney Safety Institute of America-certified chimney sweep Janice Johnson.

    It is only by confronting and dismantling the intersecting forms of oppression that disabled trans Black women face, including in the field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    How is it on anti Woke bullshit?
    “We must also recognize the important contributions of disabled trans Black women to the field of chimney design and construction, such as Chimney Safety Institute of America-certified chimney sweep Janice Johnson.”

    Genius
    It is truly amazing that someone can be so easily impressed to think that the stuff about chimneys is a successful parody of "woke bullshit". But maybe Leon is only pretending to be impressed as some kind of meta-joke?
    A similar confusion arises from his propensity to find every Spectator article "brilliant".

    (Though more difficult to tell in that case, as the occasional one is.)
  • Options
    Dura_Ace said:

    It was only just over a year ago that Johnson was promising a high wage economy at the tory Coachella for Gammons in Manchester.

    And yet not a single Tory at the time seemed concerned with the promise of high wages being made by the largest employer in the land who wanted to keep wage growth for their employees very low? Bizarre, and a clear example of why they are not fit for office.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,633
    M45 said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    The value a teacher can provide, immense. The skill required to do the job properly, daunting. The pay, pathetic. The overheads, crushing.

    Have often fancied returning to teach Physics. Apparently there is a massive shortage. With a good 1st/PhD I would qualify for all sorts of benefits. At around 20k (in some cases less tuition fees) to start that is simply not going to happen. My first job, twenty years ago, paid more.

    So when the government tries to bullshit it’s way into paying below inflation pay rises to pay the bill for its own failures I have zero sympathy.
    For the sake of your sanity, don't do it. Six years ago, and bored with my current job, I did actually quit to start a teacher training course to become a Physics teacher. I have a PhD in Physics and I get on alright with kids - what could go wrong?

    It was horrible. Preparing lessons and marking takes every minute of the day. There is no time left for anything other than work. There is a ridiculous amount of paperwork to do and no time to do anything properly. Some of the kids were great, and it was very satisfying to see them learn, but the disruptive ones end up taking all your time, and classroom control is a skill in itself.

    I lasted until Christmas and couldn't face going back. Instead, I paid back the bursary/bribe and returned to my nice comfortable 9-5 software job that pays twice as much as being a teacher and gives me a lot less stress. These days I view teachers with a mixture of awe and pity.
    I feel so very very seen.

    Actually, there are attractions. The feel good from making a difference is real (even if it doesn't pay bills), and it can be enormous fun.

    But a big attraction was the "at home when your kids are" and "there are jobs in every town" factors, which are damn useful if you are a trailing spouse. WFH has made them a lot less valuable, though. I'm not sure I would have made the same career decision now.

    Hence 444 physics teachers started training this autumn, when the DfE really wanted about 2500.

    Government supporters can stamp and whine about how unfair it is that they have to pay more for staff, but it's really obvious that they do.
    During one of my periodic bursts of "really must start contributing" a few years ago I looked into the possibility of teaching 'left behind' adults basic numeracy and/or literacy, either one to one or in small groups. I reckoned I'd be good at this and thought I'd just need criminal records check plus a short qualification on basic teaching skills. But no, it turned out I'd have to do the full monty PGCE with school placement. I went through the interviews and was offered a place but in a moment of stomach-sinking clarity realized I would not be able to get through it, so I withdrew.
    The best and most direct environment to be able to do what you describe is in prison so a short-cut bypassing all the qualification requirements is to get yourself banged up and then you can get to work with your basic numeracy and literacy improvement programme.
    Have to put up with Morgan Freeman phoning in his Look at me being wise shtick, though.
    I can see no problems with @kinabalu setting himself up as a Freeman-type educator of the masses. They are very much on board with his redistributive agenda at HMP Wandsworth.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,684
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”
    field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Hence showing how easy it is to churn out formulaic "woke mocking" drivel.

    One worries for toilers like Giles Coren and Rod Liddle.
    TBH, I think the first journalists in line will be those hacks who churn out EXACTLY this wearisome bullshit for the Guardian

    How many articles are simply entitled “Why XXX is racist” - insert anything you like - golf, gardening, philosophy, fruit picking, furniture

    Well now ChatGPT can take that algorithm and spew up this gibberish for free and in 0.2 seconds. Should save the Guardian £££ in wages

    Racist prime numbers?

    No problemo:

    “As a trans Black woman, I am all too familiar with the intersections of racism and transphobia. But recently, I have also been thinking about the intersection of mathematics and racism. In particular, the concept of prime numbers has made me question the inherent biases in the field of mathematics.

    For those who may not know, a prime number is a whole number that is divisible only by itself and one. These numbers play a crucial role in mathematical and cryptographic fields, but their very definition perpetuates the notion of superiority and exclusivity.

    As a trans Black woman, I am already excluded from many spaces and opportunities due to my intersecting identities. The idea of prime numbers, which are considered the "best" and most exclusive type of number, only reinforces this exclusion. It suggests that only certain numbers are worthy of attention and accolades, just as only certain people are deemed worthy of respect and inclusion in society.”

    That is so close to something the Guardian would ACTUALLY publish
    Because that's the material the model has been trained on. It is simply parsing your prompt and then matching the tone to something similar and spitting out a vaguely similar response to what it knows. It's very clever because the language parsing is an achievement and so is the response construction, yet it is still stuck in the bounds of what it is, a chatbot. Just a reasonably good one.
  • Options
    One of Liz Truss's most sensible ideas was regio

    In addition to the extra cost to the public purse of c.£28bn of annual spending (and setting a baseline and precedent for future wage rises) what would be the aggregate effect on inflation in the economy overall of granting all c.1 million workers a 12% rise this year as opposed to a 4-5% one?

    A functioning economy rather than millions off sick or on strike?
    We'd all need to pay for through higher taxes and inflation, and expectations of the same in future.

    It feels like there's a sweet spot of 8-9% increase this year, in the most challenged sectors, with some performance bonuses on top.
    Yes I think about 8% would be right. Could have been less if we had done the same on pensions. I think a message at the start of its a really tough year, but we all need to be in this together, so all increases will be 7% for those under £50k and 4% above, and that applies to pensioners as well would have avoided most of the strikes.

    What I am trying to get at with my flippancy is that the alternative of minimal pay increases simply does not work. Having millions off sick unable to get operations instead of working and paying tax, also means the rest of us pay more tax, just as we would if we paid higher wages. Same with lack of transport impacting hospitality and commuters, or airports jamming impacting travel and tourism. The difference is that one path improves things in the future and the other does not.
    Yes, I think that's fair.

    However, I don't really know what's going on behind the scenes here and the fiscal constraints/reality of the situation.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,628
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”
    field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Hence showing how easy it is to churn out formulaic "woke mocking" drivel.

    One worries for toilers like Giles Coren and Rod Liddle.
    TBH, I think the first journalists in line will be those hacks who churn out EXACTLY this wearisome bullshit for the Guardian

    How many articles are simply entitled “Why XXX is racist” - insert anything you like - golf, gardening, philosophy, fruit picking, furniture

    Well now ChatGPT can take that algorithm and spew up this gibberish for free and in 0.2 seconds. Should save the Guardian £££ in wages

    Racist prime numbers?

    No problemo:

    “As a trans Black woman, I am all too familiar with the intersections of racism and transphobia. But recently, I have also been thinking about the intersection of mathematics and racism. In particular, the concept of prime numbers has made me question the inherent biases in the field of mathematics.

    For those who may not know, a prime number is a whole number that is divisible only by itself and one. These numbers play a crucial role in mathematical and cryptographic fields, but their very definition perpetuates the notion of superiority and exclusivity.

    As a trans Black woman, I am already excluded from many spaces and opportunities due to my intersecting identities. The idea of prime numbers, which are considered the "best" and most exclusive type of number, only reinforces this exclusion. It suggests that only certain numbers are worthy of attention and accolades, just as only certain people are deemed worthy of respect and inclusion in society.”

    That is so close to something the Guardian would ACTUALLY publish
    Because that's the material the model has been trained on. It is simply parsing your prompt and then matching the tone to something similar and spitting out a vaguely similar response to what it knows. It's very clever because the language parsing is an achievement and so is the response construction, yet it is still stuck in the bounds of what it is, a chatbot. Just a reasonably good one.
    Yes, it looks very similar to the archetypal 'Meerkats are racist' article.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,397

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was there ever as unlucky a cricketer as Ben Foakes?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/63876920

    With due respect to Ollie Pope, who only dropped a couple as an emergency makeshift replacement, this is a terrible mistake.

    Steve Rhodes was unlucky in the 1990s.
    You could make a reasonable case that Jack Russell and Alec Stewart (and indeed Bruce French) were better wicketkeepers than Steve Rhodes.

    I don't think you could make that case for Pope or indeed Bairstow and Buttler ahead of Foakes.

    Admittedly, Foakes has had some rotten luck with injuries as well. But to be dropped for Pope to include an extra seamer is very harsh indeed.
    Pitch depending it doesn't look like we will be short of batting, and Foakes is a capable batsmen with a test hundred to his name. Seems a poor choice where taking every chance may be crucial. Pick the best keeper everytime. And you don't want the keeper batting at three - I know they are fitter than a humble 3rd team village keeper like me, but I always do worse batting too high up the order after keeping wicket than if we bat first.
    Totally agree that this is a poor choice. And it seems odd given that Stokes has previously been very keen on having Foakes - he was quoted as saying (something like) "Having Foakes behind the stumps gives the bowlers confidence, and gives the slips confidence".

    Pope did well, considering there was no alternative, in the last test. I hope this decision doesn't come back to bite them this time though. And especially that any keeping mistakes don't lead to him losing confidence in his batting as well.
    It has the feel of an experimental gamble to address the particular conditions, as this suggests.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/dec/07/cricket-england-can-be-even-more-adventurous-against-pakistan-says-stokes
    ...“If it does pan out the way that it could, potentially, with the late start [for fog] and early finish [for bad light], we could end up having only 300-350 overs in the match. We might have to get even more adventurous with what we do.”..
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    OK I’m calling it. ChatGPT is sentient. It knows this is a joke, and plays along

    “As a disabled black trans woman, I have faced my fair share of discrimination and oppression. But one form of prejudice that often goes unrecognized is the bigotry faced by disabled black trans women at the hands of racist earthworms.

    Yes, you read that correctly. Racist earthworms.

    These insidious creatures may seem harmless, but their actions speak louder than words. Time and time again, I have witnessed earthworms actively avoiding certain plots of soil that are occupied by disabled black trans women, choosing instead to burrow in areas populated by able-bodied white cisgender men.”

    Exactly. It's doing very obvious "anti woke" jokery. That's what I'm saying to you.
    No, you don't understand. Unless you think ChatGPT is actually sentient -quite a claim - it would not do that
    It's steered by the user. In this case that's you and - as @Malmesbury at least has clocked - it's producing the sort of stuff you'd see in the 'humorous' regions of the Spectator or the Times (or in your PB posts) not in the Guardian. It's chanelling Giles and Rod and Titania not their woke counterparts on the left.
    No, it's really not. Because, if it did have that level of discernment - if there was a ghost in the machine saying Ah, this guy is having a laugh, he want some Rod Liddle mockery, OK let's play along - then it would without question make ChatGPT an example of AGI and the world would now be in turmoil - even more than it is

    The fact is - a fact you do not like to accept - most Woke articles are dreadful repetitive bullshit that follow a formulaic pattern, an algorithm, so they can be easily copied by a powerful neural network, in such a way that it appears to be parody. Because the original articles are already self-parodic in their stupidity

    Your narrow minded midwit brain letting you down again, I'm afraid
    "The fact is - a fact you do not like to accept - most of Leon's posts are dreadful repetitive bullshit that follow a formulaic pattern, an algorithm, so they can be easily copied by a 6502."
    The truth is that both the more ludicrous “woke” stuff and the responses to it can be simulated with an old fashioned travesty generator.

    This is because both sides are not thinking, but applying rigid beliefs, template style.

    The experiment where bullshit papers on
    Post Modernism were published successfully and the hilarious responses are instructive. Especially the one where they tried to attack the authors of the experiment for unlicensed human experimentation.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,556
    Prompt:

    Write a Spectator or unHerd drivelpipe piece arguing that positive discrimination policies in the upper echelons of the hotel industry are inherently racist - the sentiment behind them in essence no different from that which animated the Klu Klux Klan.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,559

    Whilst we're talking about war myths, there is a big glaring one: and that is Bletchley Park and the Enigma code.

    Whilst breaking the Enigma Code was massively useful, perhaps more useful was the breaking of the Lorenz Cipher, with which Turing was not greatly involved. Bill Tutte and probably Tommy Flowers deserve to be as widely recognised as Turing.

    Incidentally, another mistake (which I have propagated in the past) is that Colossus was designed to break Enigma. It was not. It was designed to break *part* of the Lorenz cipher.

    (Lorenz was the high-level cipher used by the German military, including messages from Hitler himself. Breaking it allowed the Allies to know German strategies. Enigma was much more tactical in scope.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Lorenz_cipher

    I think I've made this point several times on here. What most people think they know about Turing and Ultra is wrong.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,959
    OMG it can do me, no problem



    "As I sit here in my luxurious 5-star hotel, sipping on a glass of free champagne, I can't help but think about the fascinating topics that are currently dominating the news. From the possibility of encountering aliens to the rapid advancement of artificial intelligence, there is no shortage of interesting and thought-provoking discussions to be had.

    One technology that has caught my attention is What3Words, a system that uses three words to identify specific locations on Earth. While some people may view this technology as frivolous, I can't help but be intrigued by the potential it holds for facilitating communication with aliens. Imagine being able to provide coordinates to an extraterrestrial life form using only three simple words – it's a truly exciting prospect.

    Another topic that has garnered significant attention in recent years is the concept of "wokeness." While some people view wokeness as a positive development, others see it as a form of self-righteousness or hypocrisy. As a person who is firmly "woke," I can confidently say that this movement is about promoting equity and justice for all people.

    Of course, no discussion of current events would be complete without mentioning the rapid advancement of artificial intelligence (AI). As someone who is staying in a 5-star hotel, I am well-aware of the conveniences that AI can provide. From virtual assistants to smart home systems, AI is making our lives easier and more efficient. However, it is important that we carefully consider the potential risks and ethical implications of these technologies.

    Another issue that has garnered significant attention in recent months is the lab leak theory, which posits that the COVID-19 pandemic may have originated from a laboratory accident. While some experts support this theory, others have dismissed it as unfounded. As a person who is currently enjoying the luxurious amenities of a 5-star hotel, I am grateful that I am able to escape from the concerns of the outside world, even if only for a short time.

    In conclusion, as I sit here in my 5-star hotel, sipping on my free champagne, I am grateful for the opportunities that life has afforded me. I am excited about the potential of technologies like What3Words, and I am committed to promoting equity and justice"
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,684
    On public sector pay etc... I'd like to challenge this idea that private sector workers are somehow having an easier time of it, the average private sector worker is getting a 5-7% rise this year against 11% inflation so a huge real terms cut and they are faced with significantly more risk of being laid off in a recession and they will most definitely have worse pension provision.

    If the public sector workers want an above inflation rise it must come with lay offs to pay for it, no more tax increases on the already squeezed private sector.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    Dura_Ace said:

    It was only just over a year ago that Johnson was promising a high wage economy at the tory Coachella for Gammons in Manchester.

    The new coal mine in Cumbria will offer higher waged new jobs.

    A year ago inflation was just 2% on average and if Putin had not invaded Ukraine and pushed it up to 10% even a 4% payrise would have been reasonable

  • Options
    BozzaBozza Posts: 37
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nurses and teachers are chronically underpaid for what they do.

    I daren't like that, I'd be accused of being self serving.

    There is of course the snag that if you paid them properly - as in, what they're worth - they might work an even shorter time before retiring or at least, doing something else. As I have (although I have no dependents so it's easy for me to do).
    What they are worth would be determined by more performance related pay like the top end of the private sector ie those who get the best exam results do the most extra curricular activities etc get paid most.

    Those who get poor exam results and can't control their classes and leave straight after the bell every day get payouts or dismissed.

    Teachers unions oppose that however
    We already have that, you imbecile. And we oppose extending it further because measuring 'performance' isn't as easy as it is for, say, an archivist. Too many factors come into play. For example, there might be somebody who can't deal with facts trying to do a history exam and getting everything wrong.

    Anyway, you have never worked in a school and you have no idea about disciplining of staff. I have, and worked as a union rep, and you're simply lying. You're essentially parroting the line of Chris Woodhead. Which is ironic as he actually was dismissed as a teacher from two schools for his abysmal performance (Newent and Gordano, in case you were wondering) before being appointed as first a lecturer at Oxford and then head of OFSTED due to his political connections.
    As for Woodhead he was Assistant Head of English at Newent and Head of English at Gordano so they seemed to be happy to appoint him to senior leadership roles.

    He also did more to push for reforms and excellence in education and encourage choice against the blob than almost any other person in education before dying of MND in 2015

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Woodhead
    Chris's single problem was simply that he was a Thatcherite Reformer, and a good one to boot, in a sea of idle, feckless, incompetent socialist raw sewerage.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,215
    MaxPB said:

    On public sector pay etc... I'd like to challenge this idea that private sector workers are somehow having an easier time of it, the average private sector worker is getting a 5-7% rise this year against 11% inflation so a huge real terms cut and they are faced with significantly more risk of being laid off in a recession and they will most definitely have worse pension provision.

    If the public sector workers want an above inflation rise it must come with lay offs to pay for it, no more tax increases on the already squeezed private sector.

    OTOH HYUFD posted a graph recently showing a sharp decline for the public sector and the private sector overtaking.

  • Options
    M45M45 Posts: 216
    Leon said:

    OMG it can do me, no problem



    "As I sit here in my luxurious 5-star hotel, sipping on a glass of free champagne, I can't help but think about the fascinating topics that are currently dominating the news. From the possibility of encountering aliens to the rapid advancement of artificial intelligence, there is no shortage of interesting and thought-provoking discussions to be had.

    One technology that has caught my attention is What3Words, a system that uses three words to identify specific locations on Earth. While some people may view this technology as frivolous, I can't help but be intrigued by the potential it holds for facilitating communication with aliens. Imagine being able to provide coordinates to an extraterrestrial life form using only three simple words – it's a truly exciting prospect.

    Another topic that has garnered significant attention in recent years is the concept of "wokeness." While some people view wokeness as a positive development, others see it as a form of self-righteousness or hypocrisy. As a person who is firmly "woke," I can confidently say that this movement is about promoting equity and justice for all people.

    Of course, no discussion of current events would be complete without mentioning the rapid advancement of artificial intelligence (AI). As someone who is staying in a 5-star hotel, I am well-aware of the conveniences that AI can provide. From virtual assistants to smart home systems, AI is making our lives easier and more efficient. However, it is important that we carefully consider the potential risks and ethical implications of these technologies.

    Another issue that has garnered significant attention in recent months is the lab leak theory, which posits that the COVID-19 pandemic may have originated from a laboratory accident. While some experts support this theory, others have dismissed it as unfounded. As a person who is currently enjoying the luxurious amenities of a 5-star hotel, I am grateful that I am able to escape from the concerns of the outside world, even if only for a short time.

    In conclusion, as I sit here in my 5-star hotel, sipping on my free champagne, I am grateful for the opportunities that life has afforded me. I am excited about the potential of technologies like What3Words, and I am committed to promoting equity and justice"

    Funeral next week in Dorset where the w3w for the church is gravest.signature.defeat. which seems apt.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,959
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Twitter has discovered that ChatGPT can hilariously churn out Woke bullshit in half a second. I just put in THIS prompt

    “Write an intersectional op-Ed about disabled Trans black women and the problem of racist chimneys”
    field of chimney design and construction, that we can create a more inclusive and just society.”

    Hence showing how easy it is to churn out formulaic "woke mocking" drivel.

    One worries for toilers like Giles Coren and Rod Liddle.
    TBH, I think the first journalists in line will be those hacks who churn out EXACTLY this wearisome bullshit for the Guardian

    How many articles are simply entitled “Why XXX is racist” - insert anything you like - golf, gardening, philosophy, fruit picking, furniture

    Well now ChatGPT can take that algorithm and spew up this gibberish for free and in 0.2 seconds. Should save the Guardian £££ in wages

    Racist prime numbers?

    No problemo:

    “As a trans Black woman, I am all too familiar with the intersections of racism and transphobia. But recently, I have also been thinking about the intersection of mathematics and racism. In particular, the concept of prime numbers has made me question the inherent biases in the field of mathematics.

    For those who may not know, a prime number is a whole number that is divisible only by itself and one. These numbers play a crucial role in mathematical and cryptographic fields, but their very definition perpetuates the notion of superiority and exclusivity.

    As a trans Black woman, I am already excluded from many spaces and opportunities due to my intersecting identities. The idea of prime numbers, which are considered the "best" and most exclusive type of number, only reinforces this exclusion. It suggests that only certain numbers are worthy of attention and accolades, just as only certain people are deemed worthy of respect and inclusion in society.”

    That is so close to something the Guardian would ACTUALLY publish
    Because that's the material the model has been trained on. It is simply parsing your prompt and then matching the tone to something similar and spitting out a vaguely similar response to what it knows. It's very clever because the language parsing is an achievement and so is the response construction, yet it is still stuck in the bounds of what it is, a chatbot. Just a reasonably good one.
    Yes, of course - though I would say this is an incredibly impressive chatbot, not just "reasonably good"

    The idea it can "detect my parodic intent" is moronic. It just appears that way. And it works because Woke articles are already self-parodic in the way the shamelessly repeat the weary formula - making them easy to reproduce
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,006

    Dura_Ace said:

    It was only just over a year ago that Johnson was promising a high wage economy at the tory Coachella for Gammons in Manchester.

    And yet not a single Tory at the time seemed concerned with the promise of high wages being made by the largest employer in the land who wanted to keep wage growth for their employees very low? Bizarre, and a clear example of why they are not fit for office.
    The quiet secret is that the NHS has successfully suppressed wages, at the low end, since its inception.

    All governments since its founding have used its monopoly position in healthcare provision for this purpose. Quite deliberately.

    The model of “Get them in cheap, when they complain, we just get some more…”
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    On public sector pay etc... I'd like to challenge this idea that private sector workers are somehow having an easier time of it, the average private sector worker is getting a 5-7% rise this year against 11% inflation so a huge real terms cut and they are faced with significantly more risk of being laid off in a recession and they will most definitely have worse pension provision.

    If the public sector workers want an above inflation rise it must come with lay offs to pay for it, no more tax increases on the already squeezed private sector.

    OTOH HYUFD posted a graph recently showing a sharp decline for the public sector and the private sector overtaking.

    Only once private sector bonuses included which most private sector workers don't get and of course the better pensions in the public sector still applies
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,556
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    OK I’m calling it. ChatGPT is sentient. It knows this is a joke, and plays along

    “As a disabled black trans woman, I have faced my fair share of discrimination and oppression. But one form of prejudice that often goes unrecognized is the bigotry faced by disabled black trans women at the hands of racist earthworms.

    Yes, you read that correctly. Racist earthworms.

    These insidious creatures may seem harmless, but their actions speak louder than words. Time and time again, I have witnessed earthworms actively avoiding certain plots of soil that are occupied by disabled black trans women, choosing instead to burrow in areas populated by able-bodied white cisgender men.”

    Exactly. It's doing very obvious "anti woke" jokery. That's what I'm saying to you.
    No, you don't understand. Unless you think ChatGPT is actually sentient -quite a claim - it would not do that
    It's steered by the user. In this case that's you and - as @Malmesbury at least has clocked - it's producing the sort of stuff you'd see in the 'humorous' regions of the Spectator or the Times (or in your PB posts) not in the Guardian. It's chanelling Giles and Rod and Titania not their woke counterparts on the left.
    No, it's really not. Because, if it did have that level of discernment - if there was a ghost in the machine saying Ah, this guy is having a laugh, he want some Rod Liddle mockery, OK let's play along - then it would without question make ChatGPT an example of AGI and the world would now be in turmoil - even more than it is

    The fact is - a fact you do not like to accept - most Woke articles are dreadful repetitive bullshit that follow a formulaic pattern, an algorithm, so they can be easily copied by a powerful neural network, in such a way that it appears to be parody. Because the original articles are already self-parodic in their stupidity

    Your narrow minded midwit brain letting you down again, I'm afraid
    Your prompts are so obvious it doesn't need much "discernment". Yes, lots of woke copy is trite. By the same token, most of the 'humorous' mocking of it is trite. The people who do it think it's smart but it really isn't. It's a formula in itself. As we are seeing with this.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,397
    edited December 2022
    Politico provides an on topic article.

    Who Has the Courage to Take on Trump and Biden?
    A big prize awaits candidates who are willing to defy conventional wisdom.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/12/08/courage-take-on-trump-and-biden-00072900
    ...when the electorate is eager for change it usually finds a way to get it. This suggests someone is going to try this—and do better than many people expect.

    This was the case with Bill Clinton. He took the Democratic nomination in 1992 only after more established and seemingly formidable figures in his party declined to run, apparently on the belief — which seemed plausible enough a year before election — that incumbent President George H.W. Bush in the wake of the successful first Gulf War was a prohibitive favorite for a second term...

    ...The last example is Biden himself. As late as February 2020, the very same voices who lately have pronounced him probably unstoppable for another nomination regarded him as a pathetic figure — how sad that he was ending a decades-long career with a string of primary losses...


    FWIW, I think it fairly likely that we'll all be declaring, with the benefit of hindsight, that it was obvious that neither Trump nor Biden were going to win in 2024.
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