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Brexiteers should expect a lot more polling like this – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 373
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: Rishi Sunak has been asked by senior civil servants to delay the "bonfire" of EU retained law by three years until 2026

    It's the latest blow to the government's claims to be securing post-Brexit freedoms

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-24/uk-officials-want-sunak-to-delay-bonfire-of-eu-laws-until-2026

    This is actually a HUGE story.

    When It’s everyone asking this - from institute of directors and CBI through the Civil Service leadership to the union barons. And asking the government not to do it because it will cause chaos, damaging damaging chaos. Yet there is no way this shaky government can stand up to the right wing of the party and U Turn on this one, absolutely no political way of kicking this into long grass and the government not wobbling as dubbed closet remainer **** by so many in their own party.

    Labour and opposition parties are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of this self inflicted clear ideological chaos over the next two years.
    Lots of people derive great benefit from heavy regulation. It provides a lot of well-paid employment, and stifles competition.
    You are taking an ideological position, that’s fair enough in a debating society. Your post can be read though that you are on the side of damaging chaos, for moving too fast and too quickly purely for political reasons, not rational ones.

    I was talking about sensible government, I wasn’t making a political or idealogical point, you are the one to introduce this, but as you have done so, the main political take out is hoping the Tories recover in polls over next two years, whilst they will continue to do dumb chaos creating things, unable to escape various positions they have got themselves wedded to, through promises and expectations, to party and country and media cheerleaders.
    Does changing the status quo ante cause "damaging chaos?" That's an argument for no change.
    I find it very hard to believe that we will be changing from regulation to no regulation rather than regulation to substitute regulation: widgets must be 3mm long to widgets must be 4 groats long, but we will need a new EU compliance team as well.

    Except for protection of basic workers rights.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: Rishi Sunak has been asked by senior civil servants to delay the "bonfire" of EU retained law by three years until 2026

    It's the latest blow to the government's claims to be securing post-Brexit freedoms

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-24/uk-officials-want-sunak-to-delay-bonfire-of-eu-laws-until-2026

    This is actually a HUGE story.

    When It’s everyone asking this - from institute of directors and CBI through the Civil Service leadership to the union barons. And asking the government not to do it because it will cause chaos, damaging damaging chaos. Yet there is no way this shaky government can stand up to the right wing of the party and U Turn on this one, absolutely no political way of kicking this into long grass and the government not wobbling as dubbed closet remainer **** by so many in their own party.

    Labour and opposition parties are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of this self inflicted clear ideological chaos over the next two years.
    There is this persistent notion of Britain as the Incredible Hulk - a nation of huge strength and limitless potential, tied down by pettyfogging rules and busybody bureaucrats, ready to burst free and bestride the globe again, bestride it in a way that only Britain can, the moment those annoyances are removed. It's a seductive vision but imo wide of the mark.
    I somewhat disagree - I’m arguing with SeanF separately, but he is right about the direction of travel towards a more deregulated, liberalised economy best placed to create growth for all the country to benefit from, yes there is room there to move in that direction. But anyone defending the chaos this government will cause because they are impelled to act too quickly on this before thrown from power - that’s just irrational and wrong.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,299
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,551
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    DJ41 said:

    If true, it looks as though Russia's version of NATO, the CTSO, is collapsing:
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1595720663427334144

    In context: Armenia is a CTSO member. When they had a spat with Azerbaijan earlier in the year, Russia did not help.

    A "spat" is a minor squabble over something relatively unimportant. This wasn't a spat - it was war, with the terrorist expulsion of large numbers of civilians and a denial that they'd ever put down roots where their ancestors had lived for hundreds and thousands of years. Incidentally, denial of the genocide committed against Armenians is official policy in both Azerbaijan and its main backer, Turkey. Indeed saying the genocide occurred is against the law in those countries.

    It's true that Russia didn't help Armenia much.

    The one country that has helped Armenia a lot has been Iran. (Meanwhile, Israel supplied weapons to Azerbaijan.)

    The US, NATO, and the EU didn't help Armenia at all. And guess what - they're not going to, either. They want to keep Turkey on their side.
    I can't follow your point. We're not part of a security pact with Armenia. Whether the world should help either of them is irrelevant to whether Russia has obligations or commitments, and if it met them.
    We're not part of a security pact with Ukraine either, but we're helping massively because we disapprove of the war. It's a fair comment, though, that we are awfully selective about where we intervene when atrocities are committed - Yemen and DRC say "hi", in the former case because we suck up to Saudi Arabia, in the latter case perhaps because we're just not very interested in Africa.

    The original point that the CTSO is collapsing may well be true, though.
    Nice try, but it isn't a fair comment because the initial point was about Russia's security pact not security pacts in general. We've chosen to be allies of Ukraine and yes nations are selective in who they help and why, but that doesn't have anything to do with a story about problems in the Russian security pact.

    It's a complete diversion. A point about geopolitical hypocrisy might be true it might not, but is not a rejoinder .

    And the context was a comment essentially going 'Russia's not done much but we've done nothing', but there are very different expectations from Armenia.
    Yes. The point is that Russia now has a lot less influence in the Caucasus and central Asia then it had at the start of this year.

    Consequently Turkey is now stronger in the Middle East and the Caucasus, and there is a vacuum in central Asia that China may seek to fill, though probably not in as explicitly a military way as Russia, or Turkey.

    It's also an opportunity for the US, but after the failure in Afghanistan I'd have thought they would be wary of getting too involved.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,359
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    pillsbury said:

    Nigelb said:

    Individual bat viromes reveal the co-infection, spillover and emergence risk of potential zoonotic viruses
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.23.517609v1
    Bats are reservoir hosts for many zoonotic viruses. Despite this, relatively little is known about the diversity and abundance of viruses within bats at the level of individual animals, and hence the frequency of virus co-infection and inter-species transmission. Using an unbiased meta-transcriptomics approach we characterised the mammalian associated viruses present in 149 individual bats sampled from Yunnan province, China. This revealed a high frequency of virus co-infection and species spillover among the animals studied, with 12 viruses shared among different bat species, which in turn facilitates virus recombination and reassortment. Of note, we identified five viral species that are likely to be pathogenic to humans or livestock, including a novel recombinant SARS-like coronavirus that is closely related to both SARS-CoV-2 and SARS-CoV, with only five amino acid differences between its receptor-binding domain sequence and that of the earliest sequences of SARS-CoV-2. Functional analysis predicts that this recombinant coronavirus can utilize the human ACE2 receptor such that it is likely to be of high zoonotic risk. Our study highlights the common occurrence of inter-species transmission and co-infection of bat viruses, as well as their implications for virus emergence.

    Jing Wang, Yuanfei Pan, Li-fen Yang, Wei-hong Yang, Chu-ming Luo, Juan Wang, Guo-peng Kuang, Wei-chen Wu, Qin-yu Gou, Gen-yang Xin, Bo Li, Huan-le Luo, Yao-qing Chen, Yue-long Shu, Deyin Guo, Zi-hou Gao, Guodong Liang, Jun Li, Edward C Holmes, Yun Feng, Mang Shi

    Can any pupil point to any possible national bias in this paper?

    "Of note, we identified five viral species that are likely to be pathogenic to humans or livestock, including a novel recombinant SARS-like coronavirus that is closely related to both SARS-CoV-2 and SARS-CoV, with only five amino acid differences between its receptor-binding domain sequence and that of the earliest sequences of SARS-CoV-2. We transported these five viral species to our leaky, not fit for purpose, bioinsecure city centre laboratory for study and modification"

    And btw

    This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review [what does this mean?].
    It means that it was published online before peer review - like most scientific papers in the last few years.
    And like most of any importance, it will be formally published after review.

    If you'd taken any interest in the science of Covid over the last couple of years, you'd know this. It means that new research gets shared many months (or years) earlier than it would have done in the past.
    Another co-author of that paper is the infamous Edward Holmes, who was also a co-author of the now-disgraced “Proximal Origins” article in Nature, a pivotal part of the initial cover-up
    A thread talking about the paper.
    https://twitter.com/PhilippMarkolin/status/1595764189632647168
    Feel free to disagree with the substance. You've already done the ad hom.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,250
    edited November 24
    I wrote recently that even if Brits don't buy into the EU's federal destiny, they might still vote for it to get the economic benefits of EU membership. David Gauke is right that growing public support for the EU cannot just be ignored by politicians.

    https://twitter.com/BlogWyatt/status/1595800279370575873
    https://twitter.com/DavidGauke/status/1595774801972711425
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,291
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Except that UKIP/Reform/Farage is RUBBISH when it comes to FPTP elections.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,434

    I’m going to take PB Brexiters at their word that they wanted greater numbers of more ethnically diverse migration.

    Thousands wouldn’t.

    I think it's great to see that there is now so much agreement on this topic.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,149
    edited November 24

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Except that UKIP/Reform/Farage is RUBBISH when it comes to FPTP elections.
    That's true, but isn't the problem for Mr Sunak the votes which Mr Farage and his party's candidates draw off the Conservative candidates?

    Though Labour also, to be fair. Which is now a Brexiter party.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,913

    1/🚨The personal Twitter accounts of all Scot Gov ministers have been deleted from their official profiles🚨

    Presumably a direct consequence of FOI review into John Swinney’s tweets.

    So it’s now official: Scot Gov cannot guarantee the accuracy of anything tweeted by ministers.


    https://twitter.com/staylorish/status/1595771026818072581

    Why would you need an FOI into someone's tweets. It's easily available information.
    If you delete your (personal) account, then all your Tweet history disappears with it.

    (Except from Internet sleuths, who get off on finding old Tweets that politicians don’t want you to see).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,359
    Herschel Walker, running for U.S. Senate in Georgia, still gets tax break on $3 million Texas residence

    Under Texas law, homeowners can claim a homestead exemption only on their primary residence. The GOP Senate candidate registered to vote in Georgia last year.
    https://www.texastribune.org/2022/11/23/herschel-walker-texas-tax-break/

    As an aside, I see that 'erection' is still trending on Twitter.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 31,978

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: Rishi Sunak has been asked by senior civil servants to delay the "bonfire" of EU retained law by three years until 2026

    It's the latest blow to the government's claims to be securing post-Brexit freedoms

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-24/uk-officials-want-sunak-to-delay-bonfire-of-eu-laws-until-2026

    This is actually a HUGE story.

    When It’s everyone asking this - from institute of directors and CBI through the Civil Service leadership to the union barons. And asking the government not to do it because it will cause chaos, damaging damaging chaos. Yet there is no way this shaky government can stand up to the right wing of the party and U Turn on this one, absolutely no political way of kicking this into long grass and the government not wobbling as dubbed closet remainer **** by so many in their own party.

    Labour and opposition parties are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of this self inflicted clear ideological chaos over the next two years.
    There is this persistent notion of Britain as the Incredible Hulk - a nation of huge strength and limitless potential, tied down by pettyfogging rules and busybody bureaucrats, ready to burst free and bestride the globe again, bestride it in a way that only Britain can, the moment those annoyances are removed. It's a seductive vision but imo wide of the mark.
    I somewhat disagree - I’m arguing with SeanF separately, but he is right about the direction of travel towards a more deregulated, liberalised economy best placed to create growth for all the country to benefit from, yes there is room there to move in that direction. But anyone defending the chaos this government will cause because they are impelled to act too quickly on this before thrown from power - that’s just irrational and wrong.
    That's a slightly different issue. One can indeed assume that anything this government does will be chaotic, because this government is incompetent in everything it does.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,286
    edited November 24
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Except that UKIP/Reform/Farage is RUBBISH when it comes to FPTP elections.
    That's true, but isn't the problem for Mr Sunak the votes which Mr Farage and his party's candidates draw off the Conservative candidates?

    Though Labour also, to be fair. Which is now a Brexiter party.
    There are no Brexiter parties because Brexit is in the past. There are only Rejoiners and Stay Outers...

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 31,978

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,149
    Driver said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Except that UKIP/Reform/Farage is RUBBISH when it comes to FPTP elections.
    That's true, but isn't the problem for Mr Sunak the votes which Mr Farage and his party's candidates draw off the Conservative candidates?

    Though Labour also, to be fair. Which is now a Brexiter party.
    There are no Brexiter parties because Brexit is in the past. There are only Rejoiners and Stay Outers...
    Just tell the people of NI. And so on and so forth.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,299

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: Rishi Sunak has been asked by senior civil servants to delay the "bonfire" of EU retained law by three years until 2026

    It's the latest blow to the government's claims to be securing post-Brexit freedoms

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-24/uk-officials-want-sunak-to-delay-bonfire-of-eu-laws-until-2026

    This is actually a HUGE story.

    When It’s everyone asking this - from institute of directors and CBI through the Civil Service leadership to the union barons. And asking the government not to do it because it will cause chaos, damaging damaging chaos. Yet there is no way this shaky government can stand up to the right wing of the party and U Turn on this one, absolutely no political way of kicking this into long grass and the government not wobbling as dubbed closet remainer **** by so many in their own party.

    Labour and opposition parties are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of this self inflicted clear ideological chaos over the next two years.
    There is this persistent notion of Britain as the Incredible Hulk - a nation of huge strength and limitless potential, tied down by pettyfogging rules and busybody bureaucrats, ready to burst free and bestride the globe again, bestride it in a way that only Britain can, the moment those annoyances are removed. It's a seductive vision but imo wide of the mark.
    I somewhat disagree - I’m arguing with SeanF separately, but he is right about the direction of travel towards a more deregulated, liberalised economy best placed to create growth for all the country to benefit from, yes there is room there to move in that direction. But anyone defending the chaos this government will cause because they are impelled to act too quickly on this before thrown from power - that’s just irrational and wrong.
    Well I don't know how you can argue with me and him at the same time - but no I don't really share that vision of chasing growth through a deregulated economy. I'm up for some managed decline with the focus on a better distribution of wealth & opportunity. And in fact I think this, ie more fully realizing the potential of our population, represents the best chance of us one day reversing our decline and breaking out on the upside.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,250
    Driver said:

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.

    Iain Martin, champion of all things Brexit, has managed to write yet another column in The Times today about Brexit.

    I guess he still hasn't gotten over it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,250
    Why is Brexit back to haunt the Tory party?

    @RMCunliffe, @REWearmouth and @FreddieJH8 discuss why the PM is incurring the wrath of hardline Brexiteers and the signs of rising public discontent with Brexit.

    Listen here: https://pod.fo/e/150fcf https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1595803678610292737/video/1
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,857

    I’m going to take PB Brexiters at their word that they wanted greater numbers of more ethnically diverse migration.

    Thousands wouldn’t.

    I think it's great to see that there is now so much agreement on this topic.
    My priority is to see higher skilled immigration. If the consequence of that is that immigration is more ethnically diverse, it doesn't really bother me.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 895
    Back in the bad old days, some US mining companies used to strive for a "diverse" work force in order to make unionizing more difficult. If the potential union members speak four or five different languages, organizing them will be difficult.

    (Are some US tech companies following a similar strategy, for similar reasons, now? I am not in close enough contact with the industry to give you an informed opinion -- but it wouldn't surprise me.)
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 373
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    pillsbury said:

    Nigelb said:

    Individual bat viromes reveal the co-infection, spillover and emergence risk of potential zoonotic viruses
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.23.517609v1
    Bats are reservoir hosts for many zoonotic viruses. Despite this, relatively little is known about the diversity and abundance of viruses within bats at the level of individual animals, and hence the frequency of virus co-infection and inter-species transmission. Using an unbiased meta-transcriptomics approach we characterised the mammalian associated viruses present in 149 individual bats sampled from Yunnan province, China. This revealed a high frequency of virus co-infection and species spillover among the animals studied, with 12 viruses shared among different bat species, which in turn facilitates virus recombination and reassortment. Of note, we identified five viral species that are likely to be pathogenic to humans or livestock, including a novel recombinant SARS-like coronavirus that is closely related to both SARS-CoV-2 and SARS-CoV, with only five amino acid differences between its receptor-binding domain sequence and that of the earliest sequences of SARS-CoV-2. Functional analysis predicts that this recombinant coronavirus can utilize the human ACE2 receptor such that it is likely to be of high zoonotic risk. Our study highlights the common occurrence of inter-species transmission and co-infection of bat viruses, as well as their implications for virus emergence.

    Jing Wang, Yuanfei Pan, Li-fen Yang, Wei-hong Yang, Chu-ming Luo, Juan Wang, Guo-peng Kuang, Wei-chen Wu, Qin-yu Gou, Gen-yang Xin, Bo Li, Huan-le Luo, Yao-qing Chen, Yue-long Shu, Deyin Guo, Zi-hou Gao, Guodong Liang, Jun Li, Edward C Holmes, Yun Feng, Mang Shi

    Can any pupil point to any possible national bias in this paper?

    "Of note, we identified five viral species that are likely to be pathogenic to humans or livestock, including a novel recombinant SARS-like coronavirus that is closely related to both SARS-CoV-2 and SARS-CoV, with only five amino acid differences between its receptor-binding domain sequence and that of the earliest sequences of SARS-CoV-2. We transported these five viral species to our leaky, not fit for purpose, bioinsecure city centre laboratory for study and modification"

    And btw

    This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review [what does this mean?].
    It means that it was published online before peer review - like most scientific papers in the last few years.
    And like most of any importance, it will be formally published after review.

    If you'd taken any interest in the science of Covid over the last couple of years, you'd know this. It means that new research gets shared many months (or years) earlier than it would have done in the past.
    Another co-author of that paper is the infamous Edward Holmes, who was also a co-author of the now-disgraced “Proximal Origins” article in Nature, a pivotal part of the initial cover-up
    A thread talking about the paper.
    https://twitter.com/PhilippMarkolin/status/1595764189632647168
    Feel free to disagree with the substance. You've already done the ad hom.
    Not on Philipp Markolin, PhD, we haven't. For starters, timely confirmation of this morning's views on PhDs who identify as such. For seconds science is not done in twitter threads. For thirds it does not contain expressions like defeatist, knee jerk, conspiracy, myth, hysterical.

    And turning to the substance, there is none. His conclusion:

    There is not much more to say. If you are really afraid of GoF research or worry about biosafety, you must be #scared shitless about nature's BSL-0 GoF experiments. And maybe that is the reason why you rather advocate for getting rid of the former, it seems more doable 16/

    Which is whataboutery on stilts. It is like me coming round and kicking your cat to death and saying if you are fussed about that you must be terrified of the thought of your children dying in a nuclear holocaust unleashed by Putin's war.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,936
    This time last year I was thinking, what I wouldn’t do to have people boring off about Brexit and Sindy rather than covid. Silly me.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,553
    Not sure removing the working time directive is a good look for the Tories . In this rush to remove anything EU related the right wing papers will be celebrating as workers rights are flushed down the toilet .
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,149
    moonshine said:

    This time last year I was thinking, what I wouldn’t do to have people boring off about Brexit and Sindy rather than covid. Silly me.

    You're getting them all today - three for the price of a visit. Though tbf it's a different indyref this time round, in contrast to Brexit which is still the same old unfinished one.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,286
    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.

    Iain Martin, champion of all things Brexit, has managed to write yet another column in The Times today about Brexit.

    I guess he still hasn't gotten over it.
    Ah, I knew I could rely on that to trigger Exhibit A.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,286
    nico679 said:

    Not sure removing the working time directive is a good look for the Tories . In this rush to remove anything EU related the right wing papers will be celebrating as workers rights are flushed down the toilet .

    WTD is a joke. I have never worked a job where I didn't have to waive it as a condition of employment.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,149
    nico679 said:

    Not sure removing the working time directive is a good look for the Tories . In this rush to remove anything EU related the right wing papers will be celebrating as workers rights are flushed down the toilet .

    And, as we were discussing some weeks back, such Woke Lefty organizations as the RSPB, NT, Woodland Trust, and so on are very worried about the implications for the environment. That shouldn't be forgotten.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,553
    Driver said:

    nico679 said:

    Not sure removing the working time directive is a good look for the Tories . In this rush to remove anything EU related the right wing papers will be celebrating as workers rights are flushed down the toilet .

    WTD is a joke. I have never worked a job where I didn't have to waive it as a condition of employment.
    Not sure what job you do but the WTD was designed to stop employers from being forced to work over 48 hrs a week . The whole point was the employee could choose whether to opt out. I’d rather have the law in place then a total free for all which is what we’ll get if the ERG nutjobs get their way .
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 373
    Driver said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Except that UKIP/Reform/Farage is RUBBISH when it comes to FPTP elections.
    That's true, but isn't the problem for Mr Sunak the votes which Mr Farage and his party's candidates draw off the Conservative candidates?

    Though Labour also, to be fair. Which is now a Brexiter party.
    There are no Brexiter parties because Brexit is in the past. There are only Rejoiners and Stay Outers...

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.
    If you are American bugger off, none of your business. If not, write "got." Either way you sound as intelligent as a Frenchman in 1936 dismissing any talk of a German threat as "not having come to terms with the Treaty of Versailles."
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 643
    Just came across this, which seems to tick various PB boxes - possibly in all the wrong ways.

    https://diffudle.com/

    AI generated image and you have to guess the word that prompted it - a-la wordle.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,299
    Topped up my Uruguay. On at an average 50 now. A solid goalless draw with glimpses of quality is exactly how you want to start a WC competition.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,857

    Back in the bad old days, some US mining companies used to strive for a "diverse" work force in order to make unionizing more difficult. If the potential union members speak four or five different languages, organizing them will be difficult.

    (Are some US tech companies following a similar strategy, for similar reasons, now? I am not in close enough contact with the industry to give you an informed opinion -- but it wouldn't surprise me.)

    There are some voices on the old left who seem to strongly imply that the woke left is a front by big business in order to marginalise those fighting for the working class, or something.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,286
    pillsbury said:

    Driver said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Except that UKIP/Reform/Farage is RUBBISH when it comes to FPTP elections.
    That's true, but isn't the problem for Mr Sunak the votes which Mr Farage and his party's candidates draw off the Conservative candidates?

    Though Labour also, to be fair. Which is now a Brexiter party.
    There are no Brexiter parties because Brexit is in the past. There are only Rejoiners and Stay Outers...

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.
    If you are American bugger off, none of your business. If not, write "got."
    The distinction is obviously something that you have forgot.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,065
    Off-topic:

    I just had a conversation with another parent, whose son is not doing well a school. She said she "did not believe in homework."
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 373
    Driver said:

    pillsbury said:

    Driver said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Except that UKIP/Reform/Farage is RUBBISH when it comes to FPTP elections.
    That's true, but isn't the problem for Mr Sunak the votes which Mr Farage and his party's candidates draw off the Conservative candidates?

    Though Labour also, to be fair. Which is now a Brexiter party.
    There are no Brexiter parties because Brexit is in the past. There are only Rejoiners and Stay Outers...

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.
    If you are American bugger off, none of your business. If not, write "got."
    The distinction is obviously something that you have forgot.
    Howls of risive laughter.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,625
    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: Rishi Sunak has been asked by senior civil servants to delay the "bonfire" of EU retained law by three years until 2026

    It's the latest blow to the government's claims to be securing post-Brexit freedoms

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-24/uk-officials-want-sunak-to-delay-bonfire-of-eu-laws-until-2026

    It's very positive that these people are being forced out into the open to request this shite. It's very much like lifting a brick in the garden.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033
    pillsbury said:

    Driver said:

    pillsbury said:

    Driver said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Except that UKIP/Reform/Farage is RUBBISH when it comes to FPTP elections.
    That's true, but isn't the problem for Mr Sunak the votes which Mr Farage and his party's candidates draw off the Conservative candidates?

    Though Labour also, to be fair. Which is now a Brexiter party.
    There are no Brexiter parties because Brexit is in the past. There are only Rejoiners and Stay Outers...

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.
    If you are American bugger off, none of your business. If not, write "got."
    The distinction is obviously something that you have forgot.
    Howls of risive laughter.
    DId some getten a gotten past the English protection laser?

    Standards ... falling ... falling ...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,485
    "in a new kind of association" can mean literally anything
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033
    ohnotnow said:

    Just came across this, which seems to tick various PB boxes - possibly in all the wrong ways.

    https://diffudle.com/

    AI generated image and you have to guess the word that prompted it - a-la wordle.

    Catchphrase is out of the IP time limit?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,402
    edited November 24
    deleted
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,286
    rcs1000 said:

    "in a new kind of association" can mean literally anything

    Indeed. Which, it turn, means that it means nothing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,485

    carnforth said:

    Found an article with some actual figures, and seemingly sensible commentary on the immigration numbers:

    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-ons-immigration-figures-are-not-as-dramatic-as-they-look/

    (Portes generally seems to be of the sensible remainer type)

    Today’s immigration figures a complete non story once you subtract the number of students. Students shouldn’t even be in the figures arguably, as it makes the figures so misleading?

    What should be a bigger story is how incompetent Leaky Sue was yesterday at the committee. How does she have any supporters of her competence, it was painful and embarrassing to watch.
    Net student numbers should be broadly neutral, because most students should return home at the end of their course of study. (Not all, as some will end up getting married etc.)

    The issue is a situation where there are a substantial number of people coming over on student visas, who are not going to real educational establishments, and using that time in the UK to qualify for other visa types.

    I don't know whether than is the case, or is a big problem, but that is the concern.
  • Off-topic:

    I just had a conversation with another parent, whose son is not doing well a school. She said she "did not believe in homework."

    I never had homework until secondary school, if that counts.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,485
    Driver said:

    nico679 said:

    Not sure removing the working time directive is a good look for the Tories . In this rush to remove anything EU related the right wing papers will be celebrating as workers rights are flushed down the toilet .

    WTD is a joke. I have never worked a job where I didn't have to waive it as a condition of employment.
    I was working at Goldman Sachs when the WTD came out, and HR kindly put a copy of a waiver on everyone's desk to sign.

    I did wonder what the consequences of not signing it would be.
  • kinabalu said:

    Topped up my Uruguay. On at an average 50 now. A solid goalless draw with glimpses of quality is exactly how you want to start a WC competition.

    Good luck but I'm not 100 per cent sure about your reasoning.
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 373
    rcs1000 said:

    carnforth said:

    Found an article with some actual figures, and seemingly sensible commentary on the immigration numbers:

    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-ons-immigration-figures-are-not-as-dramatic-as-they-look/

    (Portes generally seems to be of the sensible remainer type)

    Today’s immigration figures a complete non story once you subtract the number of students. Students shouldn’t even be in the figures arguably, as it makes the figures so misleading?

    What should be a bigger story is how incompetent Leaky Sue was yesterday at the committee. How does she have any supporters of her competence, it was painful and embarrassing to watch.
    Net student numbers should be broadly neutral, because most students should return home at the end of their course of study. (Not all, as some will end up getting married etc.)

    The issue is a situation where there are a substantial number of people coming over on student visas, who are not going to real educational establishments, and using that time in the UK to qualify for other visa types.

    I don't know whether than is the case, or is a big problem, but that is the concern.
    Got a Wikipedia page

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogus_colleges_in_the_United_Kingdom
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,065
    rcs1000 said:

    Off-topic:

    I just had a conversation with another parent, whose son is not doing well a school. She said she "did not believe in homework."

    I hope you replied:

    "Oh, I can assure you that homework does exist."
    TBF, I was a bit too staggered.

    The same lady has complained in the past that parents 'buy' advantages for their kids by booking things like guitar or swimming lessons. Yet she does not encourage her son to do homework (he sometimes does it around ours).

    WWC, single mother. Two other kids, one adult.

    I'm not trying to make this into a "Aren't I great!" post, for I am not. Just that there's kids out there whose parents really struggle, for whatever reason, to give them the support that others automatically give our kids.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,626
    kinabalu said:

    Topped up my Uruguay. On at an average 50 now. A solid goalless draw with glimpses of quality is exactly how you want to start a WC competition.

    I don't think any of the last 5 teams to win started with a draw, although Spain started with a loss in 2010.

    50 looks generous, but if you think about 50% chance of getting out of group, 50% in first knockout and then 40% chance to win each consecutive match... that makes them about 1.6% to win overall.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571
    These Ghanaian are in naughty corner. They’ve gone full on rainbow colour 🫢
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 534
    edited November 24
    Guardian: "Alex Salmond’s Alba party suggested only one pro-independence candidate should stand in each seat [in Scotland at the next British general election], in order to funnel all independence support to one person."

    So how can it be a "de facto referendum" then? Isn't that about total votes for X versus total votes against X?

    See what the nationalists are trying to do? They are pushing towards a fight over legitimacy - true believers against those who are soft on foreigners. Take things far enough in this direction and there will be violence.

    Nationalists will talk any flavour of sh*t that's expedient, and their followers will scream with looks of rage and hatred on their contorted xenophobic chip-on-the-shoulder faces that it really is raspberry jam, and they will actually believe it, and they will call anybody who says otherwise either English or in it with the English.

    The opposition parties in Scotland (the Greens not counting - they're only "oppositional" in order to pocket Short money - what a scam) have got to find a way to work together. Anyone in Labour or the Conservatives who doesn't want to work with the other party, just f***ing suck it up. Just think of what an independent Scotland would be like. It would be a one-party state.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 895
    On homework: There have been some experiments in the US (and probably elsewhere) with flipping the usual arrangement; Students watch lectures at home, on line, or DVD, or whatever, and then do problems in class, where they can ask the teacher for help.

    Forget what they call it, but it sounds like an experiment worth trying.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,268
    edited November 24
    pillsbury said:

    rcs1000 said:

    carnforth said:

    Found an article with some actual figures, and seemingly sensible commentary on the immigration numbers:

    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-ons-immigration-figures-are-not-as-dramatic-as-they-look/

    (Portes generally seems to be of the sensible remainer type)

    Today’s immigration figures a complete non story once you subtract the number of students. Students shouldn’t even be in the figures arguably, as it makes the figures so misleading?

    What should be a bigger story is how incompetent Leaky Sue was yesterday at the committee. How does she have any supporters of her competence, it was painful and embarrassing to watch.
    Net student numbers should be broadly neutral, because most students should return home at the end of their course of study. (Not all, as some will end up getting married etc.)

    The issue is a situation where there are a substantial number of people coming over on student visas, who are not going to real educational establishments, and using that time in the UK to qualify for other visa types.

    I don't know whether than is the case, or is a big problem, but that is the concern.
    Got a Wikipedia page

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogus_colleges_in_the_United_Kingdom
    University of Bums on Seats is still going strong

    http://cynicalbastards.com/ubs/index.html
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,566
    Driver said:

    nico679 said:

    Not sure removing the working time directive is a good look for the Tories . In this rush to remove anything EU related the right wing papers will be celebrating as workers rights are flushed down the toilet .

    WTD is a joke. I have never worked a job where I didn't have to waive it as a condition of employment.
    I don't think I've ever had a job in which I have been asked to waive it!

    But maybe I just haven't been paying enough attention to the small print. It's a very long time since I've worked in a job where anyone, including me, is monitoring my hours. Last was civil service around 15 years ago where clocking in and out was a thing and you weren't permitted to go more than 15 hours above or below your contracted hours at any point (i.e. your hours worked since starting employment had to be contracted hours since that point +/- 15 hours).
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,301
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Shore up the Red Wall or the Blue one? It's a dilemma.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 895
    This cartoon may help explain the moher's attitude:
    https://www.allposters.com/-sp/The-hardest-part-of-homework-is-keeping-my-parents-motivated-New-Yorker-Cartoon-Posters_i14261633_.htm

    (When I found that on my daily cartoon calendar, I gave it to a neighbor, an experienced teacher. She took it to her school to post it where the other teachers could enjoy it, too.)
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 657
    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Topped up my Uruguay. On at an average 50 now. A solid goalless draw with glimpses of quality is exactly how you want to start a WC competition.

    I don't think any of the last 5 teams to win started with a draw, although Spain started with a loss in 2010.

    50 looks generous, but if you think about 50% chance of getting out of group, 50% in first knockout and then 40% chance to win each consecutive match... that makes them about 1.6% to win overall.
    Spain did indeed lose their opener, leaving the excellent fact that the only unbeaten team at the 2010 WC was New Zealand, who drew three games and didn't get out of the group.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,301
    rcs1000 said:

    "in a new kind of association" can mean literally anything

    Sunlit uplands?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,065

    This cartoon may help explain the moher's attitude:
    https://www.allposters.com/-sp/The-hardest-part-of-homework-is-keeping-my-parents-motivated-New-Yorker-Cartoon-Posters_i14261633_.htm

    (When I found that on my daily cartoon calendar, I gave it to a neighbor, an experienced teacher. She took it to her school to post it where the other teachers could enjoy it, too.)

    "We're sorry, but our international business has closed down" ?
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 534
    pillsbury said:

    rcs1000 said:

    carnforth said:

    Found an article with some actual figures, and seemingly sensible commentary on the immigration numbers:

    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-ons-immigration-figures-are-not-as-dramatic-as-they-look/

    (Portes generally seems to be of the sensible remainer type)

    Today’s immigration figures a complete non story once you subtract the number of students. Students shouldn’t even be in the figures arguably, as it makes the figures so misleading?

    What should be a bigger story is how incompetent Leaky Sue was yesterday at the committee. How does she have any supporters of her competence, it was painful and embarrassing to watch.
    Net student numbers should be broadly neutral, because most students should return home at the end of their course of study. (Not all, as some will end up getting married etc.)

    The issue is a situation where there are a substantial number of people coming over on student visas, who are not going to real educational establishments, and using that time in the UK to qualify for other visa types.

    I don't know whether than is the case, or is a big problem, but that is the concern.
    Got a Wikipedia page

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogus_colleges_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Ramsgate would have almost no economy left were the academic visa scams to be clamped down on.
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 373

    This cartoon may help explain the moher's attitude:
    https://www.allposters.com/-sp/The-hardest-part-of-homework-is-keeping-my-parents-motivated-New-Yorker-Cartoon-Posters_i14261633_.htm

    (When I found that on my daily cartoon calendar, I gave it to a neighbor, an experienced teacher. She took it to her school to post it where the other teachers could enjoy it, too.)

    Invisible to non US IPs. So I will never know whether moher is an error for mother, female parent, or mohel, performer of circumcisions.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571
    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.

    Iain Martin, champion of all things Brexit, has managed to write yet another column in The Times today about Brexit.

    I guess he still hasn't gotten over it.
    Ah, I knew I could rely on that to trigger Exhibit A.
    Here’s exhibit B. In out referendum on Europe is an undemocratic device only dictators and demagogues would use.* Cameron used it not in name of democracy, but complacent that project fear would handsomely stitch the debate up, win the day, and kick Brexit talk into long grass for a generation.

    Not wrong am I?

    *(c) Margaret Thatcher.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 251
    pillsbury said:

    Driver said:

    pillsbury said:

    Driver said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Except that UKIP/Reform/Farage is RUBBISH when it comes to FPTP elections.
    That's true, but isn't the problem for Mr Sunak the votes which Mr Farage and his party's candidates draw off the Conservative candidates?

    Though Labour also, to be fair. Which is now a Brexiter party.
    There are no Brexiter parties because Brexit is in the past. There are only Rejoiners and Stay Outers...

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.
    If you are American bugger off, none of your business. If not, write "got."
    The distinction is obviously something that you have forgot.
    Howls of risive laughter.
    I;m currently reading The Countess of Pembroke's Arcadia, written in the 1580s/90s by Sir Philip Sidney. He uses 'gotten'. A lot.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,625
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,359
    More evidence that Judge Alito is more a venal politician than he is a justice.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/11/alito-leak-hobby-lobby-real-problem.html
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,065

    On homework: There have been some experiments in the US (and probably elsewhere) with flipping the usual arrangement; Students watch lectures at home, on line, or DVD, or whatever, and then do problems in class, where they can ask the teacher for help.

    Forget what they call it, but it sounds like an experiment worth trying.

    At my school, a few students did not have to turn up for class. Instead they'd do independent study and ask the teachers for help if they needed it (being a boarding school, teachers were very available).

    An Indian friend of mine got five A's at A-level despite not turning up for a class in his final year. We'd study together in the library.

    I did rather remarkably less well...
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571
    edited November 24
    How many, in the student numbers, we’re working here and SWITCHED to student status to stay?

    If that particularly stat was very high, would it be interesting? a fiddle or abuse of the system? Back door immigration.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,286
    edited November 24

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.

    Iain Martin, champion of all things Brexit, has managed to write yet another column in The Times today about Brexit.

    I guess he still hasn't gotten over it.
    Ah, I knew I could rely on that to trigger Exhibit A.
    Here’s exhibit B. In out referendum on Europe is an undemocratic device only dictators and demagogues would use.* Cameron used it not in name of democracy, but complacent that project fear would handsomely stitch the debate up, win the day, and kick Brexit talk into long grass for a generation.

    Not wrong am I?

    *(c) Margaret Thatcher.
    Your last sentence is right (except that it wasn't "for a generation", it was forever). The preceding sentence isn't - when a large proportion of the population holds an opinion that both major parties disagree with, what other way is there for the people to tell the politicians what to do?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 373

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    True if you are an unhatched chicken.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,485
    pillsbury said:

    rcs1000 said:

    carnforth said:

    Found an article with some actual figures, and seemingly sensible commentary on the immigration numbers:

    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-ons-immigration-figures-are-not-as-dramatic-as-they-look/

    (Portes generally seems to be of the sensible remainer type)

    Today’s immigration figures a complete non story once you subtract the number of students. Students shouldn’t even be in the figures arguably, as it makes the figures so misleading?

    What should be a bigger story is how incompetent Leaky Sue was yesterday at the committee. How does she have any supporters of her competence, it was painful and embarrassing to watch.
    Net student numbers should be broadly neutral, because most students should return home at the end of their course of study. (Not all, as some will end up getting married etc.)

    The issue is a situation where there are a substantial number of people coming over on student visas, who are not going to real educational establishments, and using that time in the UK to qualify for other visa types.

    I don't know whether than is the case, or is a big problem, but that is the concern.
    Got a Wikipedia page

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogus_colleges_in_the_United_Kingdom
    That page begs more questions than it answers. In particular, I don't really know whether this is a 1,000 person a year problem, or a 10,000 person problem.

    I'm also staggered that this can't be fairly easily solved. Accredited educational institutions need to fill in a pack: number of students, split between foreign and domestic, ownership, number of teachers, photos of facility, membership of UCAS, degrees granted, degree granting institution, website, etc. And then before you get the right to sponsor visas, you get inspected.

    Most educational institutions, it'll be a pot of piss. And then for new ones, you literally will need at most three or four people who examine application packs and do visits. (Plus, once it becomes clear that only genuine institutions get approved, then the fake ones will stop applying.)

    And if you're not accredited, you don't get the ability to have students come with a visa to study at your "university".

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,149

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
    Eggs are sensitive. I remember the Curried Salmonella and Eggs row to this day - and it was, what, a third of a century ago? Amd if milk and bread and chicken go the same way, it will not be pretty.

    Of course, the lack of import controls means any old stuff could be dumped into the UK post-Brexit. So there is the risk of a shortage/panic story combining with a health scare combining with Brexit.
  • How many, in the student numbers, we’re working here and SWITCHED to student status to stay?

    If that particularly stat was very high, would it be interesting? a fiddle or abuse of the system? Back door immigration.

    "Empire College London" in Ilford is an obvious play on Imperial College London :lol:
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 657
    rcs1000 said:

    pillsbury said:

    rcs1000 said:

    carnforth said:

    Found an article with some actual figures, and seemingly sensible commentary on the immigration numbers:

    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-ons-immigration-figures-are-not-as-dramatic-as-they-look/

    (Portes generally seems to be of the sensible remainer type)

    Today’s immigration figures a complete non story once you subtract the number of students. Students shouldn’t even be in the figures arguably, as it makes the figures so misleading?

    What should be a bigger story is how incompetent Leaky Sue was yesterday at the committee. How does she have any supporters of her competence, it was painful and embarrassing to watch.
    Net student numbers should be broadly neutral, because most students should return home at the end of their course of study. (Not all, as some will end up getting married etc.)

    The issue is a situation where there are a substantial number of people coming over on student visas, who are not going to real educational establishments, and using that time in the UK to qualify for other visa types.

    I don't know whether than is the case, or is a big problem, but that is the concern.
    Got a Wikipedia page

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogus_colleges_in_the_United_Kingdom
    That page begs more questions than it answers. In particular, I don't really know whether this is a 1,000 person a year problem, or a 10,000 person problem.

    I'm also staggered that this can't be fairly easily solved. Accredited educational institutions need to fill in a pack: number of students, split between foreign and domestic, ownership, number of teachers, photos of facility, membership of UCAS, degrees granted, degree granting institution, website, etc. And then before you get the right to sponsor visas, you get inspected.

    Most educational institutions, it'll be a pot of piss. And then for new ones, you literally will need at most three or four people who examine application packs and do visits. (Plus, once it becomes clear that only genuine institutions get approved, then the fake ones will stop applying.)

    And if you're not accredited, you don't get the ability to have students come with a visa to study at your "university".

    It's been a problem for years; I've a family member who used to work for the QAA (kind of the HE equivalent of Ofsted) and these dodgy visa farms have been skirting the law at an industrial scale - and often the same operators just pop back up under a different name when they get shut down. I can't speak for now, but certainly a decade ago it was more of the tens-of-thousands order.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 534
    edited November 24
    Scotland "will find another way to independence", says Nicola Sturgeon.

    Here's one:

    * call a Scottish general election NOW;

    * promise in your manifesto that if there's a majority of votes for pro-independence parties (which has never happened before), then you will apply for a section 30 order to hold a rerun of the 2014 referendum within six months of the said Scottish general election - and if you and the Greens win a majority of seats without a majority of votes, you will STFU about independence for at least five years;

    * tell voters it doesn't matter what they think of the SNP's stinking record in 15 years of office, nor indeed what they think the SNP will do if it stays in office, because the ONLY issue you want them to have in their minds when they vote is independence.

    The SNP - too chickensh*t to call an election.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,625
    edited November 24
    pillsbury said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    True if you are an unhatched chicken.
    True if you're anyone. We're not the only non-bird animal to eat eggs if we can possibly find them. That's the best thing that that animal can produce - to create life. It's obviously going to have all the best vitamins, minerals, fats, proteins, that are possible. It helps of course if it's a free range hen that has scratched around and eaten worms and other insects.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033
    edited November 24

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
    Are we, though?

    How many PBers have been refused their heggs and milk?

    I bought two dozen a couple of days ago with no problem, but perhaps that's just Notts.

    Clearly the costs will be passed on, or hegg farmers will turn to other retail channels.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,149
    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
    Are we, though?

    How many PBers have been refused their heggs and milk?

    I bought two dozen a couple of days ago with no problem, but perhaps that's just Notts.
    https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/nov/21/tesco-joins-asda-and-lidl-in-rationing-eggs-over-supply-issues
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,160
    This is a significant shift from The Guardian, similar to the one taken by the New York Times. In other words, they are trying to offer a balanced exploration of the topic. Journalists should be unafraid to question the tenants of gender ID ideology.

    https://twitter.com/Shivandavis/status/1595799710304030722

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,625
    edited November 24
    Carnyx said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
    Eggs are sensitive. I remember the Curried Salmonella and Eggs row to this day - and it was, what, a third of a century ago? Amd if milk and bread and chicken go the same way, it will not be pretty.

    Of course, the lack of import controls means any old stuff could be dumped into the UK post-Brexit. So there is the risk of a shortage/panic story combining with a health scare combining with Brexit.
    They're not that sensitive. Salmonella is afaicr carried on the shell, not in the egg, so just wash your egg. I don't know how bird flu affects the egg.

    Bird flu (and how to make it worse) is alleged to have been what the Americans were doing in the Ukrainian 'biolabs'.

    Here's an article from when they were doing this research on US soil, before Obama banned it and they decided to do it in everyone else's country instead: https://www.vox.com/2019/2/17/18225938/biologists-are-trying-to-make-bird-flu-easier-to-spread-can-we-not
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,149

    Carnyx said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
    Eggs are sensitive. I remember the Curried Salmonella and Eggs row to this day - and it was, what, a third of a century ago? Amd if milk and bread and chicken go the same way, it will not be pretty.

    Of course, the lack of import controls means any old stuff could be dumped into the UK post-Brexit. So there is the risk of a shortage/panic story combining with a health scare combining with Brexit.
    They're not that sensitive. Salmonella is afaicr carried on the shell, not in the egg, so just wash your egg. I don't know how bird flu affects the egg.

    Bird flu (and how to make it worse) is alleged to have been what the Americans were doing in the Ukrainian 'biolabs'.

    Here's an article from when they were doing this research on US soil, before Obama banned it and they decided to do it in everyone else's country instead: https://www.vox.com/2019/2/17/18225938/biologists-are-trying-to-make-bird-flu-easier-to-spread-can-we-not
    I meant politically sensitive, apologies. Eggs are not, after all, sentient if I might allow myself a little joke ... The issue is partly the rising cost of production vs supermarket pressure for cheap food - much as milk.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,448
    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
    Are we, though?

    How many PBers have been refused their heggs and milk?

    I bought two dozen a couple of days ago with no problem, but perhaps that's just Notts.

    Clearly the costs will be passed on, or hegg farmers will turn to other retail channels.
    I'm assuming certain eggsessed posters have had a good day on the sauce, because I haven't met a single person refused either eggs or milk.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.

    Iain Martin, champion of all things Brexit, has managed to write yet another column in The Times today about Brexit.

    I guess he still hasn't gotten over it.
    Ah, I knew I could rely on that to trigger Exhibit A.
    Here’s exhibit B. In out referendum on Europe is an undemocratic device only dictators and demagogues would use.* Cameron used it not in name of democracy, but complacent that project fear would handsomely stitch the debate up, win the day, and kick Brexit talk into long grass for a generation.

    Not wrong am I?

    *(c) Margaret Thatcher.
    Your last sentence is right (except that it wasn't "for a generation", it was forever). The preceding sentence isn't - when a large proportion of the population holds an opinion that both major parties disagree with, what other way is there for the people to tell the politicians what to do?
    Tell parliament or advise parliament? You either believe in parliamentary democracy or you don’t. You clearly don’t if You believe only that question could empower voters. Only that question defines the Brexit the nation wanted.

    Not so. The majority of the 52 and 48 would overwhelmingly backed Mays Brexit over Boris, in a vote off, wouldn’t they?

    Would you have been unhappy if the nation, like a union membership, had voted for politicians to go and negotiate and come up with better deal, and then also the option to say wether it was actually better and acceptable or not? How is what you are standing by superior to doing that? What actually happened in democratic terms it actually empowered a minority clique to define Brexit for us. it’s the very opposite of democracy for pleblicites to empower cliques and such minority views isn’t it?

    My own relationship with Brexit? Apart from local elections it was first election I could vote in. My dad was remain, my mum leave. I liked the idea of restoring democracy and sovereignty and getting so much money back as £350M a week can go a long way. But so many economists and politicians explained it would make the country poorer and poorer year by year decade by decade. So I couldn’t make my mind up so didn’t vote. But as other people have switch to thinking it bad now, I quite like it - imagine being in it in covid and having to fight covid their way, or being in it now and told we can’t give households and our industry energy help? That would be rubbish, and not a nation at ease with itself.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,626
    My longshot tips for the World Cup... I like Japan & Switzerland at >100/1.
    I also think Belgium at 24/1 looks good... they weren't great against Canada but they got the win.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,157

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: Rishi Sunak has been asked by senior civil servants to delay the "bonfire" of EU retained law by three years until 2026

    It's the latest blow to the government's claims to be securing post-Brexit freedoms

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-24/uk-officials-want-sunak-to-delay-bonfire-of-eu-laws-until-2026

    It's very positive that these people are being forced out into the open to request this shite. It's very much like lifting a brick in the garden.
    Are you suggesting the government go ahead with this?

    What's odd is that Brexiteers have not set out from the get go which EU regulations they were desperate to get rid of. Indeed there's tended to be a blank response. So rather than having to think about it they just want to ditch everything without considering the implications.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033
    edited November 24
    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
    Are we, though?

    How many PBers have been refused their heggs and milk?

    I bought two dozen a couple of days ago with no problem, but perhaps that's just Notts.
    https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/nov/21/tesco-joins-asda-and-lidl-in-rationing-eggs-over-supply-issues
    The G alleges that Tesco allows only 3 boxes of eggs. Such boxes are 10, 12 or 15 (ignoring the trays of 30) - so it's a limitation to about three or four dozen.

    Which TBH does not feel very much like rationing to me.

    But, perhaps more revealingly, some of their online boxes of eggs are out of stock.

    Bring back the Great Egg Race, complete with all the Drs, Jerseys and Beards.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,771
    Blatant dive by Ronaldo there.
  • MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
    Are we, though?

    How many PBers have been refused their heggs and milk?

    I bought two dozen a couple of days ago with no problem, but perhaps that's just Notts.
    https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/nov/21/tesco-joins-asda-and-lidl-in-rationing-eggs-over-supply-issues
    The G alleges that Tesco allows only 3 boxes of eggs. Such boxes are 10, 12 or 15 (ignoring the trays of 30) - so it's a limitation to about three or four dozen.

    Which TBH does not feel very much like rationing to me.

    But, perhaps more revealingly, some of their online boxes of eggs are out of stock.

    Bring back the Great Egg Race, complete with all the Drs, Jerseys and Beards.
    Most boxes of eggs contain six, including the ones in the Guardian's photo. Quite how Tesco (and the others) apply their policy, I do not know. Sainsbury's does not ration eggs but since they had sold out when I was there, the point is moot.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571
    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
    Are we, though?

    How many PBers have been refused their heggs and milk?

    I bought two dozen a couple of days ago with no problem, but perhaps that's just Notts.

    Clearly the costs will be passed on, or hegg farmers will turn to other retail channels.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11434151/Experts-warn-shopping-staples-feels-like-buying-gold-bullion-inflation.html

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-63743217
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,465

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.

    Iain Martin, champion of all things Brexit, has managed to write yet another column in The Times today about Brexit.

    I guess he still hasn't gotten over it.
    Ah, I knew I could rely on that to trigger Exhibit A.
    Here’s exhibit B. In out referendum on Europe is an undemocratic device only dictators and demagogues would use.* Cameron used it not in name of democracy, but complacent that project fear would handsomely stitch the debate up, win the day, and kick Brexit talk into long grass for a generation.

    Not wrong am I?

    *(c) Margaret Thatcher.
    Your last sentence is right (except that it wasn't "for a generation", it was forever). The preceding sentence isn't - when a large proportion of the population holds an opinion that both major parties disagree with, what other way is there for the people to tell the politicians what to do?
    Tell parliament or advise parliament? You either believe in parliamentary democracy or you don’t. You clearly don’t if You believe only that question could empower voters. Only that question defines the Brexit the nation wanted.

    Not so. The majority of the 52 and 48 would overwhelmingly backed Mays Brexit over Boris, in a vote off, wouldn’t they?

    Would you have been unhappy if the nation, like a union membership, had voted for politicians to go and negotiate and come up with better deal, and then also the option to say wether it was actually better and acceptable or not? How is what you are standing by superior to doing that? What actually happened in democratic terms it actually empowered a minority clique to define Brexit for us. it’s the very opposite of democracy for pleblicites to empower cliques and such minority views isn’t it?

    My own relationship with Brexit? Apart from local elections it was first election I could vote in. My dad was remain, my mum leave. I liked the idea of restoring democracy and sovereignty and getting so much money back as £350M a week can go a long way. But so many economists and politicians explained it would make the country poorer and poorer year by year decade by decade. So I couldn’t make my mind up so didn’t vote. But as other people have switch to thinking it bad now, I quite like it - imagine being in it in covid and having to fight covid their way, or being in it now and told we can’t give households and our industry energy help? That would be rubbish, and not a nation at ease with itself.
    The EU prevents energy price help, does it?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,585

    pillsbury said:

    Driver said:

    pillsbury said:

    Driver said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Except that UKIP/Reform/Farage is RUBBISH when it comes to FPTP elections.
    That's true, but isn't the problem for Mr Sunak the votes which Mr Farage and his party's candidates draw off the Conservative candidates?

    Though Labour also, to be fair. Which is now a Brexiter party.
    There are no Brexiter parties because Brexit is in the past. There are only Rejoiners and Stay Outers...

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.
    If you are American bugger off, none of your business. If not, write "got."
    The distinction is obviously something that you have forgot.
    Howls of risive laughter.
    I;m currently reading The Countess of Pembroke's Arcadia, written in the 1580s/90s by Sir Philip Sidney. He uses 'gotten'. A lot.
    'Gotten' is in Shakespeare, the Authorised Version of 1611 and the Book of Common Prayer. It is in common use today in the phrase 'ill gotten gains'. It's fine.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,649
    edited November 24
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
    Are we, though?

    How many PBers have been refused their heggs and milk?

    I bought two dozen a couple of days ago with no problem, but perhaps that's just Notts.
    https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/nov/21/tesco-joins-asda-and-lidl-in-rationing-eggs-over-supply-issues
    The G alleges that Tesco allows only 3 boxes of eggs. Such boxes are 10, 12 or 15 (ignoring the trays of 30) - so it's a limitation to about three or four dozen.

    Which TBH does not feel very much like rationing to me.

    But, perhaps more revealingly, some of their online boxes of eggs are out of stock.

    Bring back the Great Egg Race, complete with all the Drs, Jerseys and Beards.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pvf6Xl9hQE
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033
    edited November 24

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Tories have made a mistake thinking the milk and egg crisis is short term - it’s not bird flu, it’s price rises in industry the supermarkets refuse to take on and pass on. It’s absolutely the perfect situation for the government to intervene in this industry now to avoid greater crisis in the future, but this government not good enough to recognise this.

    What would a Labour government do and how would it pay for it?
    Ha! You mea what would any decent government be doing right now! Thatcher and Hestletine would have intervened already!

    You have the egg business unable to exist for long with the current costs, so not only the existential threat to an industry from delaying inevitable intervention too late, but at same time the very poorest in our society the government pay lip service to protecting in this crisis going without staples like milk and eggs.

    Why are you even arguing. It’s a no brainier.
    Should government fix retail prices in general?
    What do you think they are already doing spending £XXXbn helping business in this crisis? but too slow to intervene in egg industry. What I am trying to point out to you is it’s exactly the same thing as household and business energy bail out. What do you think the chickens eat, so why isn’t the war escalating the price of that, etc. it’s about a government recognising it’s not a short term issue when the industry shrinks and number of laying birds decreases, we suck in eggs from places like Italy, we don’t have our own egg security anymore. As well as backing up lip service of helping the poorest within our country, they hear you saying that, but can’t have eggs or milk. Foodbanks can’t get them.

    Why are you are the side of crap government, not good government? The governmental is subsiding the cost of heating private pools same time mothers watering down milk for their babies. That’s you applauding that. It’s not about party politics, just fundamentals. You can’t get more fundamental than milk and eggs, civilised society is based on access to these.
    Why are eggs such a big deal?
    They are nature's perfect food. We should all eat as many as we can get our mits on.
    But our country is currently suffering Apartheid of the Egg. milk and eggs.

    Shameful for any government to preside over.
    Are we, though?

    How many PBers have been refused their heggs and milk?

    I bought two dozen a couple of days ago with no problem, but perhaps that's just Notts.
    https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/nov/21/tesco-joins-asda-and-lidl-in-rationing-eggs-over-supply-issues
    The G alleges that Tesco allows only 3 boxes of eggs. Such boxes are 10, 12 or 15 (ignoring the trays of 30) - so it's a limitation to about three or four dozen.

    Which TBH does not feel very much like rationing to me.

    But, perhaps more revealingly, some of their online boxes of eggs are out of stock.

    Bring back the Great Egg Race, complete with all the Drs, Jerseys and Beards.
    Most boxes of eggs contain six, including the ones in the Guardian's photo. Quite how Tesco (and the others) apply their policy, I do not know. Sainsbury's does not ration eggs but since they had sold out when I was there, the point is moot.
    So we have some eggsperience of limitations.

    Incidentally, I did not know that there had only been 22 episodes of the Great Egg Race.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,250
    David Carrick, a Met police officer who served in the same unit as Wayne Couzens, has been charged with nine more offences including six rapes. Carrick now faces a total 53 charges against 13 women across nearly two decades. A significant charge list put out today.... https://twitter.com/Fhamiltontimes/status/1595830806895026176/photo/1
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 895
    Josias_Jessop and pillsbury - Sorry about the block on the cartoon.

    Here's a description of the cartoon: One little boy is telling another, as they are about to get on a school bus: "The hardest part of homework is keeping my parents motivated."

    So that single mother may not have been as motivated as she was in the past.

    (You can probably find that cartoon on line, searching on the quote, perhaps adding: + New Yorker to your search string. I try to link to commercial sources when I am sharing a cartoon, out of respect for copyrights.)
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,286

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.

    Iain Martin, champion of all things Brexit, has managed to write yet another column in The Times today about Brexit.

    I guess he still hasn't gotten over it.
    Ah, I knew I could rely on that to trigger Exhibit A.
    Here’s exhibit B. In out referendum on Europe is an undemocratic device only dictators and demagogues would use.* Cameron used it not in name of democracy, but complacent that project fear would handsomely stitch the debate up, win the day, and kick Brexit talk into long grass for a generation.

    Not wrong am I?

    *(c) Margaret Thatcher.
    Your last sentence is right (except that it wasn't "for a generation", it was forever). The preceding sentence isn't - when a large proportion of the population holds an opinion that both major parties disagree with, what other way is there for the people to tell the politicians what to do?
    Tell parliament or advise parliament? You either believe in parliamentary democracy or you don’t. You clearly don’t if You believe only that question could empower voters. Only that question defines the Brexit the nation wanted.

    Not so. The majority of the 52 and 48 would overwhelmingly backed Mays Brexit over Boris, in a vote off, wouldn’t they?

    Would you have been unhappy if the nation, like a union membership, had voted for politicians to go and negotiate and come up with better deal, and then also the option to say wether it was actually better and acceptable or not? How is what you are standing by superior to doing that? What actually happened in democratic terms it actually empowered a minority clique to define Brexit for us. it’s the very opposite of democracy for pleblicites to empower cliques and such minority views isn’t it?

    My own relationship with Brexit? Apart from local elections it was first election I could vote in. My dad was remain, my mum leave. I liked the idea of restoring democracy and sovereignty and getting so much money back as £350M a week can go a long way. But so many economists and politicians explained it would make the country poorer and poorer year by year decade by decade. So I couldn’t make my mind up so didn’t vote. But as other people have switch to thinking it bad now, I quite like it - imagine being in it in covid and having to fight covid their way, or being in it now and told we can’t give households and our industry energy help? That would be rubbish, and not a nation at ease with itself.
    That's an awful lot of words - so many that I'm not sure what point you expect me to reply to.

    (A) Tell parliament. The people are the boss of politicians. Normally we choose representatives to decide on our behalf, but direct democracy trumps that.

    (B) If the process had been designed from the beginning that Leave would have needed to win two referendums but Remain could win only one, then that could possibly have been democratic, but definitely not fair.

    (C) May Brexit v Boris Brexit? Impossible to tell. Obviously, EEA should have been on the ballot paper in 2016 but we've gone into at length why it wasn't (TLDR: It would have beaten non-EEA Brexit 80-20 but would have caused Leave to beat Remain 60-40).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,484
    Scott_xP said:

    David Carrick, a Met police officer who served in the same unit as Wayne Couzens, has been charged with nine more offences including six rapes. Carrick now faces a total 53 charges against 13 women across nearly two decades. A significant charge list put out today.... https://twitter.com/Fhamiltontimes/status/1595830806895026176/photo/1

    Britain's finest.
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 373
    algarkirk said:

    pillsbury said:

    Driver said:

    pillsbury said:

    Driver said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Farage confirms Reform will stand a full slate of candidates at the next election & not make any deals with Conservative MPs. About 13-15% of 2019 Conservatives are already planning to vote Reform so this is another big problem in a long list of problems for Rishi Sunak.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1595781501953929216

    Yes, problem there for Sunak. He can only secure those votes by abandoning the soggy middle to Starmer.
    Except that UKIP/Reform/Farage is RUBBISH when it comes to FPTP elections.
    That's true, but isn't the problem for Mr Sunak the votes which Mr Farage and his party's candidates draw off the Conservative candidates?

    Though Labour also, to be fair. Which is now a Brexiter party.
    There are no Brexiter parties because Brexit is in the past. There are only Rejoiners and Stay Outers...

    Edit: I suppose there are also people who understand that Brexit is in the past, and those who still havent gotten over it.
    If you are American bugger off, none of your business. If not, write "got."
    The distinction is obviously something that you have forgot.
    Howls of risive laughter.
    I;m currently reading The Countess of Pembroke's Arcadia, written in the 1580s/90s by Sir Philip Sidney. He uses 'gotten'. A lot.
    'Gotten' is in Shakespeare, the Authorised Version of 1611 and the Book of Common Prayer. It is in common use today in the phrase 'ill gotten gains'. It's fine.
    So are fardel and bodkin and cream faced loon.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047
    It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas...... A month to enjoy it all before Turkey Day.


This discussion has been closed.