Brexiteers should expect a lot more polling like this – politicalbetting.com

System

Brexiteers should expect a lot more polling like this – politicalbetting.com

We are starting to see a fair bit of polling like this where the issue of the UK’s relationship with the EU is the focus. .

Read the full story here

FrancisUrquhart

England captain Harry Kane will be fit to play in Friday's World Cup match against the United States

pillsbury

There's two strucrural cracks in the tory party, one being this and one being builders vs bananas, both coming to a head pretty rapidly.

kle4

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

CarlottaVance

So support for Rejoin barely over 20%…and Remain voters not even at 50%.

pillsbury

Outremer consists of the County of Edessa, Principality of Antioch, County of Tripoli, and Kingdom of Jerusalem. Any later entities are wokeist nonsense.

Driver

Only about 20% wanting to Rejoin, I note.

StuartDickson

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Ghedebrav

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

glw

These appear to be the very figures I've been banging on about for weeks. Only one third of people are picking the EU or Single Market. Which more or less rules out anything we could do quickly.

It is pretty clear that without a large change of public opinion the politicians ought to be concentrating on a close but not too close relationship with the EU, and they shouldn't confuse unhappiness with Brexit as an endorsement of the EU.

StuartDickson

Are JL Partners members of the BPC? Cos if they are, they’re sailing close to the wind.

Carnyx

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Doubt it. The tweet has been deleted.

StuartDickson

Carnyx said:

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Doubt it. The tweet has been deleted.

How to cancel a union.

Carnyx

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

StuartDickson

Driver said:

Only about 20% wanting to Rejoin, I note.

And status quo at 7%.

If this is a popularity contest, Brexiteers are losing. And badly.

MattW

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

Compare with European countries that have banned the Burka, perhaps?

Triggered by a headscarf.

Alphabet_Soup

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

OnlyLivingBoy

StuartDickson said:

Are JL Partners members of the BPC? Cos if they are, they’re sailing close to the wind.

Why do you say that?

Carnyx

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

More basic issue, I think. Crusader stuff = overtly and publicly expressed approval of Christian proselytising (the violent bit is just added insult). Not on in Qatar.

StuartDickson

Latest royal net positivity ratings (9-10 Nov)

Prince William +69
Catherine +64
Princess Anne +64
Princess Diana +53
King Charles +43
Prince Edward +38
The institution of the monarchy +30
Camilla +15
Prince Harry -13
Meghan -32
Prince Andrew -79

https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1595726999196209152?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

Prince Andrew as popular as Tory prime ministers in the Caledonian colony.

CarlottaVance

As the dust starts to settle on the Supreme Court verdict, it’s incredibly important that Nationalist and Unionist alike understand there remains a lawful, constitutional and democratic path to independence for those who wish to pursue it 1/

That path is persuasion. Everyone understands & agrees that the decision-maker is the Scottish people. So, if you want indy, persuade them! When it is clearly and constantly the settled will of the Scottish people to have either indyref2 or independence itself, they’ll have it 2/

Yesterday’s ruling did nothing to change that. Ever since Margaret Thatcher was PM the UK state has been perfectly clear that it will not seek to obstruct the settled will of the Scottish people. Opinion polling will tell us what the people want 3/

If polls show clear and constant majority support for indyref2 or for indy itself, so be it. Nicola Sturgeon said this herself—get to 60% support for 6, 9, or 12 months and that’s settled will—and in those circumstances the UK state will not block what Scotland wants 4/

In that sense, and contrary to what Ms Sturgeon is now saying, the UK is and always has been a voluntary union. More so than Canada (whose Provinces cannot unilaterally secede). Much more so than the US (whose States cannot secede at all) 5/

Those opposed to independence should campaign for Scots to agree with them, that our true priorities are health, economy, schools, and hospitals, leaving the Nationalists to fixate on indy. That’s politics. It’s lawful, constitutional and democratic. That’s as it should be. /End

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1595700411620532226

Nigelb

Arizona’s GOP governor congratulates Hobbs on victory as Lake refuses to concede
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3748560-arizonas-gop-governor-congratulates-hobbs-on-victory-as-lake-refuses-to-concede/

Slackbladder

Surely the Brexit question isn't the 'real' issue. At least in terms of the 2016 question, it's been 6 years now.

It should be about reframing it to be what works vs what doesn't work. If trade can be improved, then the government should consider what can be done to improve things.

Problem is people are still looking at things against a 2016 mindset. Things need moving on.

If we can come to a new trading partnership, we should do that if it's in our interests. We are out of the EU. Both of the 2016 sides should recognise that, and not complain about Brexit, but rather how things should be moving forward.

Carnyx

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

Well, plenty of pubs called the King's Head and Nag's Head ... plenty of horses, but kings are scarcer altogether and the assorted Royal Families do get possessive.

StuartDickson

CarlottaVance said:

As the dust starts to settle on the Supreme Court verdict, it’s incredibly important that Nationalist and Unionist alike understand there remains a lawful, constitutional and democratic path to independence for those who wish to pursue it 1/
That path is persuasion. Everyone understands & agrees that the decision-maker is the Scottish people. So, if you want indy, persuade them! When it is clearly and constantly the settled will of the Scottish people to have either indyref2 or independence itself, they’ll have it 2/

Yesterday’s ruling did nothing to change that. Ever since Margaret Thatcher was PM the UK state has been perfectly clear that it will not seek to obstruct the settled will of the Scottish people. Opinion polling will tell us what the people want 3/

If polls show clear and constant majority support for indyref2 or for indy itself, so be it. Nicola Sturgeon said this herself—get to 60% support for 6, 9, or 12 months and that’s settled will—and in those circumstances the UK state will not block what Scotland wants 4/

In that sense, and contrary to what Ms Sturgeon is now saying, the UK is and always has been a voluntary union. More so than Canada (whose Provinces cannot unilaterally secede). Much more so than the US (whose States cannot secede at all) 5/

Those opposed to independence should campaign for Scots to agree with them, that our true priorities are health, economy, schools, and hospitals, leaving the Nationalists to fixate on indy. That’s politics. It’s lawful, constitutional and democratic. That’s as it should be. /End

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1595700411620532226

So, governance by opinion poll, not by the results of democratic elections.

If England were governed by the same principle the Tories would have been out on their arses long ago.

pillsbury

Best for Britain
@BestForBritain
·
1h
Michael Gove in an ABSOLUTE PANIC about having made the initial introduction of that controversial Michelle Mone PPE contract. Worth watching the whole clip. Definitely more to this story.

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1595705704576229376

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/23/michelle-mones-ppe-denials-v-what-we-know

Gove indeed looking rattled, and rightly. This is failed African state level corruption, and always was. 10s of millions of quids for ministers' mates

MattW

MattW said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

Compare with European countries that have banned the Burka, perhaps?

Triggered by a headscarf.

Too late to edit. Also applies to the hijab, which *is* a headscarf.

Or with the UK football authorities triggered by the Dambusters march or arms outstretched like an aeroplane, if you want a closer parallel.

AlistairM

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

Next time one of the Nordic countries play in England we'd better ban their Viking helmets! It is offensive considering the raping and pillaging of England over a thousand years ago.

Driver

StuartDickson said:

Driver said:

Only about 20% wanting to Rejoin, I note.

And status quo at 7%.

If this is a popularity contest, Brexiteers are losing. And badly.

It isn't... the point is, to change the status quo there needs to be decent support for the specific change. Looking at those figures, that isn't anywhere near being realised.

pillsbury

Carnyx said:

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

Well, plenty of pubs called the King's Head and Nag's Head ... plenty of horses, but kings are scarcer altogether and the assorted Royal Families do get possessive.

Extraordinarily the Labour In Vain pub seems to have retained its terribly amusing sign, at least up to 2015

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/2015/02/06/row-over-labour-in-vain-19th-century-pub-sign-showing-white-couple-washing-black-boy/

Carnyx

StuartDickson said:

CarlottaVance said:

As the dust starts to settle on the Supreme Court verdict, it’s incredibly important that Nationalist and Unionist alike understand there remains a lawful, constitutional and democratic path to independence for those who wish to pursue it 1/
That path is persuasion. Everyone understands & agrees that the decision-maker is the Scottish people. So, if you want indy, persuade them! When it is clearly and constantly the settled will of the Scottish people to have either indyref2 or independence itself, they’ll have it 2/

Yesterday’s ruling did nothing to change that. Ever since Margaret Thatcher was PM the UK state has been perfectly clear that it will not seek to obstruct the settled will of the Scottish people. Opinion polling will tell us what the people want 3/

If polls show clear and constant majority support for indyref2 or for indy itself, so be it. Nicola Sturgeon said this herself—get to 60% support for 6, 9, or 12 months and that’s settled will—and in those circumstances the UK state will not block what Scotland wants 4/

In that sense, and contrary to what Ms Sturgeon is now saying, the UK is and always has been a voluntary union. More so than Canada (whose Provinces cannot unilaterally secede). Much more so than the US (whose States cannot secede at all) 5/

Those opposed to independence should campaign for Scots to agree with them, that our true priorities are health, economy, schools, and hospitals, leaving the Nationalists to fixate on indy. That’s politics. It’s lawful, constitutional and democratic. That’s as it should be. /End

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1595700411620532226

So, governance by opinion poll, not by the results of democratic elections.

If England were governed by the same principle the Tories would have been out on their arses long ago.

Quite, he and his ilk are dangerous subversives.

Also carefully forgets that Mrs T's criterion was a simple majority of SNP MPs in Scottish constituencies.

Sean_F

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63636641

O/T but a story that will interest @Richard_Tyndall and @Morris_Dancer and a good example of how archaeology and science can overturn accepted historical wisdom.

Ghedebrav

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

Quite a few Saracens/Turks Head pubs across England; supposedly named for links to the Crusades, which I imagine is romanticism seeing as they'll largely be Victorian in origin.

While we're meandering on pubs - I happened upon this fascinating piece recently on links between 'desi pubs' and football culture. Well worth a read, and some lovely photography too:

https://www.pelliclemag.com/home/2022/11/14/please-dont-take-me-home-how-black-country-desi-pub-culture-made-football-more-diverse

Driver

StuartDickson said:

CarlottaVance said:

As the dust starts to settle on the Supreme Court verdict, it’s incredibly important that Nationalist and Unionist alike understand there remains a lawful, constitutional and democratic path to independence for those who wish to pursue it 1/
That path is persuasion. Everyone understands & agrees that the decision-maker is the Scottish people. So, if you want indy, persuade them! When it is clearly and constantly the settled will of the Scottish people to have either indyref2 or independence itself, they’ll have it 2/

Yesterday’s ruling did nothing to change that. Ever since Margaret Thatcher was PM the UK state has been perfectly clear that it will not seek to obstruct the settled will of the Scottish people. Opinion polling will tell us what the people want 3/

If polls show clear and constant majority support for indyref2 or for indy itself, so be it. Nicola Sturgeon said this herself—get to 60% support for 6, 9, or 12 months and that’s settled will—and in those circumstances the UK state will not block what Scotland wants 4/

In that sense, and contrary to what Ms Sturgeon is now saying, the UK is and always has been a voluntary union. More so than Canada (whose Provinces cannot unilaterally secede). Much more so than the US (whose States cannot secede at all) 5/

Those opposed to independence should campaign for Scots to agree with them, that our true priorities are health, economy, schools, and hospitals, leaving the Nationalists to fixate on indy. That’s politics. It’s lawful, constitutional and democratic. That’s as it should be. /End

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1595700411620532226

So, governance by opinion poll, not by the results of democratic elections.

If England were governed by the same principle the Tories would have been out on their arses long ago.

If you get a majority in the parliament that can call a referendum, you can call a referendum.

pillsbury

StuartDickson said:

Latest royal net positivity ratings (9-10 Nov)

Prince William +69
Catherine +64
Princess Anne +64
Princess Diana +53
King Charles +43
Prince Edward +38
The institution of the monarchy +30
Camilla +15
Prince Harry -13
Meghan -32
Prince Andrew -79

https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1595726999196209152?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

Prince Andrew as popular as Tory prime ministers in the Caledonian colony.

Good to see clear blue water between poor old Megs, and the Duke of Pork. January gonna be less dull than usual, with the publication of The Book.

StuartDickson

pillsbury said:

Best for Britain
@BestForBritain
·
1h
Michael Gove in an ABSOLUTE PANIC about having made the initial introduction of that controversial Michelle Mone PPE contract. Worth watching the whole clip. Definitely more to this story.

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1595705704576229376

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/23/michelle-mones-ppe-denials-v-what-we-know

Gove indeed looking rattled, and rightly. This is failed African state level corruption, and always was. 10s of millions of quids for ministers' mates

Mone is a stain on the British state. Her presence in the legislature is a disgrace. She should be in prison and her assets confiscated.

Gove should be impeached.

Sean_F

Carnyx said:

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

Well, plenty of pubs called the King's Head and Nag's Head ... plenty of horses, but kings are scarcer altogether and the assorted Royal Families do get possessive.

Back in the day, (the 11th to 13th centuries) the Muslim world viewed the crusades as a virtual irrelevance, because they occupied so little territory. Hulegu Khan, on the other hand, came close to destroying the Muslim world.

Sean_F

pillsbury said:

StuartDickson said:

Latest royal net positivity ratings (9-10 Nov)

Prince William +69
Catherine +64
Princess Anne +64
Princess Diana +53
King Charles +43
Prince Edward +38
The institution of the monarchy +30
Camilla +15
Prince Harry -13
Meghan -32
Prince Andrew -79

https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1595726999196209152?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

Prince Andrew as popular as Tory prime ministers in the Caledonian colony.

Good to see clear blue water between poor old Megs, and the Duke of Pork. January gonna be less dull than usual, with the publication of The Book.

How can 6% of the population have a positive view of Prince Andrew?

kle4

The headline really twists the knife.

Pound hits post-Truss high as dollar weakens

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63732425

CarlottaVance

Along similar lines to Tomkinson (thread) - this time from a supporter of independence

Problem I've got just now is that I don't believe top-brass SNP when they insist they want a referendum soon. This impasse is an electoral goldmine. The salience of this argument about democracy only resonates in presence of undeniable popular support for indy.

https://twitter.com/lokiscottishrap/status/1595549176112218114

MattW

Carnyx said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

More basic issue, I think. Crusader stuff = overtly and publicly expressed approval of Christian proselytising (the violent bit is just added insult). Not on in Qatar.

Fair observation.

Whilst we can correctly point to overuse of the image for nationalistic reasons, the traditional antagonism of Islamic countries to changing religion (in various places a death penalty, or technical death penality, or more likely a mob murder in eg Pakistan), football fans dressed up as crusaders will be perceived as very pointed / confrontational.

Given the legacy of Iraq and Afghanistan, it is not surprising. And the West is substantially responsible, which our various outraged commentators are reluctant to acknowledge whilst parading their ethical superiority.

On Nov 14th Hard Talk was a fascinating interview with Archbishop Bashar Matti Warda of Erbil, home to Iraq's largest remaining Christian community of about 300k people. Covered what he is doing to support his community, and the tensions in being in an Islamic country. 20 minutes.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct32r3

Driver

pillsbury said:

Carnyx said:

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

Well, plenty of pubs called the King's Head and Nag's Head ... plenty of horses, but kings are scarcer altogether and the assorted Royal Families do get possessive.

Extraordinarily the Labour In Vain pub seems to have retained its terribly amusing sign, at least up to 2015

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/2015/02/06/row-over-labour-in-vain-19th-century-pub-sign-showing-white-couple-washing-black-boy/

The pub appears to be closed as of July 2022 from Google Street View.

kle4

Sean_F said:

pillsbury said:

StuartDickson said:

Latest royal net positivity ratings (9-10 Nov)

Prince William +69
Catherine +64
Princess Anne +64
Princess Diana +53
King Charles +43
Prince Edward +38
The institution of the monarchy +30
Camilla +15
Prince Harry -13
Meghan -32
Prince Andrew -79

https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1595726999196209152?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

Prince Andrew as popular as Tory prime ministers in the Caledonian colony.

Good to see clear blue water between poor old Megs, and the Duke of Pork. January gonna be less dull than usual, with the publication of The Book.

How can 6% of the population have a positive view of Prince Andrew?

They don't follow the news?

pillsbury

Driver said:

StuartDickson said:

Driver said:

Only about 20% wanting to Rejoin, I note.

And status quo at 7%.

If this is a popularity contest, Brexiteers are losing. And badly.

It isn't... the point is, to change the status quo there needs to be decent support for the specific change. Looking at those figures, that isn't anywhere near being realised.

But the categories are themselves squidgy and unspecific, which rather detracts from that point. Key thing is, ignore "Inside," and look how fat the next 3 bands are individually and in aggregate.

Carnyx

Ghedebrav said:

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

Quite a few Saracens/Turks Head pubs across England; supposedly named for links to the Crusades, which I imagine is romanticism seeing as they'll largely be Victorian in origin.

While we're meandering on pubs - I happened upon this fascinating piece recently on links between 'desi pubs' and football culture. Well worth a read, and some lovely photography too:

https://www.pelliclemag.com/home/2022/11/14/please-dont-take-me-home-how-black-country-desi-pub-culture-made-football-more-diverse

That's really good, thanks.

CarlottaVance

StuartDickson said:

CarlottaVance said:

As the dust starts to settle on the Supreme Court verdict, it’s incredibly important that Nationalist and Unionist alike understand there remains a lawful, constitutional and democratic path to independence for those who wish to pursue it 1/
That path is persuasion. Everyone understands & agrees that the decision-maker is the Scottish people. So, if you want indy, persuade them! When it is clearly and constantly the settled will of the Scottish people to have either indyref2 or independence itself, they’ll have it 2/

Yesterday’s ruling did nothing to change that. Ever since Margaret Thatcher was PM the UK state has been perfectly clear that it will not seek to obstruct the settled will of the Scottish people. Opinion polling will tell us what the people want 3/

If polls show clear and constant majority support for indyref2 or for indy itself, so be it. Nicola Sturgeon said this herself—get to 60% support for 6, 9, or 12 months and that’s settled will—and in those circumstances the UK state will not block what Scotland wants 4/

In that sense, and contrary to what Ms Sturgeon is now saying, the UK is and always has been a voluntary union. More so than Canada (whose Provinces cannot unilaterally secede). Much more so than the US (whose States cannot secede at all) 5/

Those opposed to independence should campaign for Scots to agree with them, that our true priorities are health, economy, schools, and hospitals, leaving the Nationalists to fixate on indy. That’s politics. It’s lawful, constitutional and democratic. That’s as it should be. /End

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1595700411620532226

So, governance by opinion poll, not by the results of democratic elections.

If England were governed by the same principle the Tories would have been out on their arses long ago.

Why do you think Sturgeon no longer argues for consistent 60% support?

algarkirk

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Just about the least impressive analogy available. In a world requiring stability within established structures new state formation within democracies should be:

possible
difficult and demanding
only available with very strong numbers to support it
not allowed to crowd out everyday issues and dominate the agenda.

The SNP fails critically on the numbers issue.

Nigelb

Exploring the potential: a high energy density pulsed power device as a UK R&D platform

The Royal Society, with Dr Nick Hawker of First Light Fusion, is hosting this meeting to explore the possible research applications for a new UK capability for High Energy Density (HED) science. The meeting will take place at the Royal Society on Monday 28 November.
https://royalsociety.org/science-events-and-lectures/2022/11/exploring-the-research-potential-of-a-pulsed-power-device/

Driver

pillsbury said:

Driver said:

StuartDickson said:

Driver said:

Only about 20% wanting to Rejoin, I note.

And status quo at 7%.

If this is a popularity contest, Brexiteers are losing. And badly.

It isn't... the point is, to change the status quo there needs to be decent support for the specific change. Looking at those figures, that isn't anywhere near being realised.

But the categories are themselves squidgy and unspecific, which rather detracts from that point. Key thing is, ignore "Inside," and look how fat the next 3 bands are individually and in aggregate.

Purple is a unicorn, though. That said, I've always said that some sort of "half out" was probably the inevitable destination becuase "half in" wasn't sustainable, so it's about getting there.

Nigelb

Palace bans foie gras.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-63676759.amp

moonshine

kle4 said:

The headline really twists the knife.

Pound hits post-Truss high as dollar weakens

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63732425

Almost as if the “pound weakness” was actually dollar strength due to Fed rates expectations.

Carnyx

StuartDickson said:

pillsbury said:

Best for Britain
@BestForBritain
·
1h
Michael Gove in an ABSOLUTE PANIC about having made the initial introduction of that controversial Michelle Mone PPE contract. Worth watching the whole clip. Definitely more to this story.

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1595705704576229376

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/23/michelle-mones-ppe-denials-v-what-we-know

Gove indeed looking rattled, and rightly. This is failed African state level corruption, and always was. 10s of millions of quids for ministers' mates

Mone is a stain on the British state. Her presence in the legislature is a disgrace. She should be in prison and her assets confiscated.

Gove should be impeached.

She was very much looked up to by the media in the indyref years - threatening to close down her factory and move herself and her business south of the border, IIRC, if the Yes side won. In the event, it didn't, but ...

JosiasJessop

Talking of inappropriate pub names and signs:

https://www.wondersofthepeak.org.uk/chapters/the-quiet-woman/

northern_monkey

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

There's a pub in Pontefract that was called, until surprisingly recently, The Blackamoor.

WalterWhite

Carnyx said:

StuartDickson said:

CarlottaVance said:

As the dust starts to settle on the Supreme Court verdict, it’s incredibly important that Nationalist and Unionist alike understand there remains a lawful, constitutional and democratic path to independence for those who wish to pursue it 1/
That path is persuasion. Everyone understands & agrees that the decision-maker is the Scottish people. So, if you want indy, persuade them! When it is clearly and constantly the settled will of the Scottish people to have either indyref2 or independence itself, they’ll have it 2/

Yesterday’s ruling did nothing to change that. Ever since Margaret Thatcher was PM the UK state has been perfectly clear that it will not seek to obstruct the settled will of the Scottish people. Opinion polling will tell us what the people want 3/

If polls show clear and constant majority support for indyref2 or for indy itself, so be it. Nicola Sturgeon said this herself—get to 60% support for 6, 9, or 12 months and that’s settled will—and in those circumstances the UK state will not block what Scotland wants 4/

In that sense, and contrary to what Ms Sturgeon is now saying, the UK is and always has been a voluntary union. More so than Canada (whose Provinces cannot unilaterally secede). Much more so than the US (whose States cannot secede at all) 5/

Those opposed to independence should campaign for Scots to agree with them, that our true priorities are health, economy, schools, and hospitals, leaving the Nationalists to fixate on indy. That’s politics. It’s lawful, constitutional and democratic. That’s as it should be. /End

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1595700411620532226

So, governance by opinion poll, not by the results of democratic elections.

If England were governed by the same principle the Tories would have been out on their arses long ago.

Quite, he and his ilk are dangerous subversives.

Also carefully forgets that Mrs T's criterion was a simple majority of SNP MPs in Scottish constituencies.

Your statement is incorrect. Mrs Thatcher's criterion was actually a simple majority of SNP MPs in UK constituencies. Then the SNP could pass the required legislation in Westminster.

MattW

Sean_F said:

Carnyx said:

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

Well, plenty of pubs called the King's Head and Nag's Head ... plenty of horses, but kings are scarcer altogether and the assorted Royal Families do get possessive.

Back in the day, (the 11th to 13th centuries) the Muslim world viewed the crusades as a virtual irrelevance, because they occupied so little territory. Hulegu Khan, on the other hand, came close to destroying the Muslim world.

Back then the rest of Europe was an irrelevance (more or less) surely?

The Byzantine Empire was still standing, and Europe was a backwater.

We have since had, and are still in (ish), an era of Western dominance.

And the Arab World is arguably one of the least successful global regions, with a ready self-justifying narrative of crusaders available.

Mexicanpete

CarlottaVance said:

So support for Rejoin barely over 20%…and Remain voters not even at 50%.

Driver said:

Only about 20% wanting to Rejoin, I note.

It doesn't tell the whole story though does it?

I am an enthusiastic Remainer that doesn't want to rejoin. We left, the train has left the station. We had great terms, if we rejoin we won't. You told us it would be great. We are still anticipating this greatness .

Do I regret leaving as I wait in the border control queue at Bristol Airport? A queue that pre - Brexit I didn't need to join. Yes, but you told me it will be fantastic. I'm taking your word for it. Why should I demand we rejoin?

Scott_xP

Utterly extraordinary.

Here is a Secretary of State explicitly arguing that joining the Pacific trade bloc is a great move, not because it can fix the economic damage that the Tories have caused, but because it will tie the hands of an incoming Labour gov't trying to fix it. ~AA

https://twitter.com/GregHands/status/1595689784990736386

NickPalmer

Nigelb said:

Palace bans foie gras.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-63676759.amp

Excellent. The sort of quiet gesture that the King can take without crossing the line into legislative interference.

MarqueeMark

StuartDickson said:

Driver said:

Only about 20% wanting to Rejoin, I note.

And status quo at 7%.

If this is a popularity contest, Brexiteers are losing. And badly.

It isn't.

And if it were, the contorted in anger faces of Remainers means they are the ugly unpopular ones.

Could try smiling.

eek

Nigelb said:

Exploring the potential: a high energy density pulsed power device as a UK R&D platform

The Royal Society, with Dr Nick Hawker of First Light Fusion, is hosting this meeting to explore the possible research applications for a new UK capability for High Energy Density (HED) science. The meeting will take place at the Royal Society on Monday 28 November.
https://royalsociety.org/science-events-and-lectures/2022/11/exploring-the-research-potential-of-a-pulsed-power-device/

First Light Fusion has been mentioned on here a few times. Their approach offers a plausible means of hitting fusion without insane heat in seriously complex magnetic containers.

Driver

Mexicanpete said:

CarlottaVance said:

So support for Rejoin barely over 20%…and Remain voters not even at 50%.

Driver said:

Only about 20% wanting to Rejoin, I note.

It doesn't tell the whole story though does it?

No, it doesn't, but neither does the header.

TheScreamingEagles

Sean_F said:

pillsbury said:

StuartDickson said:

Latest royal net positivity ratings (9-10 Nov)

Prince William +69
Catherine +64
Princess Anne +64
Princess Diana +53
King Charles +43
Prince Edward +38
The institution of the monarchy +30
Camilla +15
Prince Harry -13
Meghan -32
Prince Andrew -79

https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1595726999196209152?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

Prince Andrew as popular as Tory prime ministers in the Caledonian colony.

Good to see clear blue water between poor old Megs, and the Duke of Pork. January gonna be less dull than usual, with the publication of The Book.

How can 6% of the population have a positive view of Prince Andrew?

Being friends of nonces is popular?

I wonder if it is because he was the Queen’s favourite.

turbotubbs

StuartDickson said:

Carnyx said:

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Doubt it. The tweet has been deleted.

How to cancel a union.

How do I go about cancelling the Union from England?

turbotubbs

NickPalmer said:

Nigelb said:

Palace bans foie gras.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-63676759.amp

Excellent. The sort of quiet gesture that the King can take without crossing the line into legislative interference.

But what will Eagles fans eat now?

MarqueeMark

JosiasJessop said:

Talking of inappropriate pub names and signs:

https://www.wondersofthepeak.org.uk/chapters/the-quiet-woman/

Of course, situated at the foot of Nottingham Castle and nestled in the sandstone cliff rock, Ye Olde Trip To Jerusalem is England's oldest inn.

It doesn't reference a holiday destination....

StuartDickson

Carnyx said:

StuartDickson said:

CarlottaVance said:

As the dust starts to settle on the Supreme Court verdict, it’s incredibly important that Nationalist and Unionist alike understand there remains a lawful, constitutional and democratic path to independence for those who wish to pursue it 1/
That path is persuasion. Everyone understands & agrees that the decision-maker is the Scottish people. So, if you want indy, persuade them! When it is clearly and constantly the settled will of the Scottish people to have either indyref2 or independence itself, they’ll have it 2/

Yesterday’s ruling did nothing to change that. Ever since Margaret Thatcher was PM the UK state has been perfectly clear that it will not seek to obstruct the settled will of the Scottish people. Opinion polling will tell us what the people want 3/

If polls show clear and constant majority support for indyref2 or for indy itself, so be it. Nicola Sturgeon said this herself—get to 60% support for 6, 9, or 12 months and that’s settled will—and in those circumstances the UK state will not block what Scotland wants 4/

In that sense, and contrary to what Ms Sturgeon is now saying, the UK is and always has been a voluntary union. More so than Canada (whose Provinces cannot unilaterally secede). Much more so than the US (whose States cannot secede at all) 5/

Those opposed to independence should campaign for Scots to agree with them, that our true priorities are health, economy, schools, and hospitals, leaving the Nationalists to fixate on indy. That’s politics. It’s lawful, constitutional and democratic. That’s as it should be. /End

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1595700411620532226

So, governance by opinion poll, not by the results of democratic elections.

If England were governed by the same principle the Tories would have been out on their arses long ago.

Quite, he and his ilk are dangerous subversives.

Also carefully forgets that Mrs T's criterion was a simple majority of SNP MPs in Scottish constituencies.

Not just Mrs T.

…

algarkirk

glw said:

These appear to be the very figures I've been banging on about for weeks. Only one third of people are picking the EU or Single Market. Which more or less rules out anything we could do quickly.

It is pretty clear that without a large change of public opinion the politicians ought to be concentrating on a close but not too close relationship with the EU, and they shouldn't confuse unhappiness with Brexit as an endorsement of the EU.

'Close but not too close' is the problem not the solution. What does it mean? SM is binary. You are in or out. If you are out of the SM our sort of deal is as close as it gets.

The figures in the polling in the article are roughly:

35% for SM
35% for something undefined and currently unavailable outside the SM, looks like a unicorn.
13% something like status quo
17% don't know.

Given that the Tories have probably lost the next election attention needs to turn to the fact that this is actually Labour's nightmare.

MarqueeMark

turbotubbs said:

StuartDickson said:

Carnyx said:

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Doubt it. The tweet has been deleted.

How to cancel a union.

How do I go about cancelling the Union from England?

Follow the legal route?

JosiasJessop

Near me, there's a pub (the Old Ferry Boat Inn near St Ives) that has a woman's body buried beneath the floor, near the bar. The woman died nearly 1,000 years ago.

Allegedly.

And to reignite an old debate: some claim the inn to be the oldest inn in England. Innit?

TheScreamingEagles

On topic, the World Cup is causing problems in China.

They see the world isn’t locked down…

Carnyx

WalterWhite said:

Carnyx said:

StuartDickson said:

CarlottaVance said:

As the dust starts to settle on the Supreme Court verdict, it’s incredibly important that Nationalist and Unionist alike understand there remains a lawful, constitutional and democratic path to independence for those who wish to pursue it 1/
That path is persuasion. Everyone understands & agrees that the decision-maker is the Scottish people. So, if you want indy, persuade them! When it is clearly and constantly the settled will of the Scottish people to have either indyref2 or independence itself, they’ll have it 2/

Yesterday’s ruling did nothing to change that. Ever since Margaret Thatcher was PM the UK state has been perfectly clear that it will not seek to obstruct the settled will of the Scottish people. Opinion polling will tell us what the people want 3/

If polls show clear and constant majority support for indyref2 or for indy itself, so be it. Nicola Sturgeon said this herself—get to 60% support for 6, 9, or 12 months and that’s settled will—and in those circumstances the UK state will not block what Scotland wants 4/

In that sense, and contrary to what Ms Sturgeon is now saying, the UK is and always has been a voluntary union. More so than Canada (whose Provinces cannot unilaterally secede). Much more so than the US (whose States cannot secede at all) 5/

Those opposed to independence should campaign for Scots to agree with them, that our true priorities are health, economy, schools, and hospitals, leaving the Nationalists to fixate on indy. That’s politics. It’s lawful, constitutional and democratic. That’s as it should be. /End

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1595700411620532226

So, governance by opinion poll, not by the results of democratic elections.

If England were governed by the same principle the Tories would have been out on their arses long ago.

Quite, he and his ilk are dangerous subversives.

Also carefully forgets that Mrs T's criterion was a simple majority of SNP MPs in Scottish constituencies.

Your statement is incorrect. Mrs Thatcher's criterion was actually a simple majority of SNP MPs in UK constituencies. Then the SNP could pass the required legislation in Westminster.

No; specifically Scotland, and no referendum mentioned, so the only way was a majority of Scottish constituencies.

https://twitter.com/davidtorrance/status/1217477656284975104

JosiasJessop

MarqueeMark said:

JosiasJessop said:

Talking of inappropriate pub names and signs:

https://www.wondersofthepeak.org.uk/chapters/the-quiet-woman/

Of course, situated at the foot of Nottingham Castle and nestled in the sandstone cliff rock, Ye Olde Trip To Jerusalem is England's oldest inn.

It doesn't reference a holiday destination....

Our posts crossed in the aether...

StuartDickson

turbotubbs said:

StuartDickson said:

Carnyx said:

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Doubt it. The tweet has been deleted.

How to cancel a union.

How do I go about cancelling the Union from England?

Carry on the same path. You lot are doing a terrific job.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. F, yeah, interesting article (and one wonders at the numismatic value of the coin now).

Driver

StuartDickson said:

Carnyx said:

StuartDickson said:

CarlottaVance said:

As the dust starts to settle on the Supreme Court verdict, it’s incredibly important that Nationalist and Unionist alike understand there remains a lawful, constitutional and democratic path to independence for those who wish to pursue it 1/
That path is persuasion. Everyone understands & agrees that the decision-maker is the Scottish people. So, if you want indy, persuade them! When it is clearly and constantly the settled will of the Scottish people to have either indyref2 or independence itself, they’ll have it 2/

Yesterday’s ruling did nothing to change that. Ever since Margaret Thatcher was PM the UK state has been perfectly clear that it will not seek to obstruct the settled will of the Scottish people. Opinion polling will tell us what the people want 3/

If polls show clear and constant majority support for indyref2 or for indy itself, so be it. Nicola Sturgeon said this herself—get to 60% support for 6, 9, or 12 months and that’s settled will—and in those circumstances the UK state will not block what Scotland wants 4/

In that sense, and contrary to what Ms Sturgeon is now saying, the UK is and always has been a voluntary union. More so than Canada (whose Provinces cannot unilaterally secede). Much more so than the US (whose States cannot secede at all) 5/

Those opposed to independence should campaign for Scots to agree with them, that our true priorities are health, economy, schools, and hospitals, leaving the Nationalists to fixate on indy. That’s politics. It’s lawful, constitutional and democratic. That’s as it should be. /End

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1595700411620532226

So, governance by opinion poll, not by the results of democratic elections.

If England were governed by the same principle the Tories would have been out on their arses long ago.

Quite, he and his ilk are dangerous subversives.

Also carefully forgets that Mrs T's criterion was a simple majority of SNP MPs in Scottish constituencies.

Not just Mrs T.

…

Indeed, "from time to time" but not "constantly". And it was reassessed just eight years ago.

pillsbury

JosiasJessop said:

Near me, there's a pub (the Old Ferry Boat Inn near St Ives) that has a woman's body buried beneath the floor, near the bar. The woman died nearly 1,000 years ago.

Allegedly.

And to reignite an old debate: some claim the inn to be the oldest inn in England. Innit?

Innit or outside it, I would think, as they are basically an English invention.

NickPalmer

algarkirk said:

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Just about the least impressive analogy available. In a world requiring stability within established structures new state formation within democracies should be:

possible
difficult and demanding
only available with very strong numbers to support it
not allowed to crowd out everyday issues and dominate the agenda.

The SNP fails critically on the numbers issue.

In general I think a persistent success by a separatist party should give the basis for a referendum every 20 years or so, but if the result vary by region then the separatists shouldn't be allowed to claim the entire area merely because they claim a historical identity - rather, the Schleswig-Holstein approach should be taken so that only those parts who are pro-separatist should split off. Cf. Northern Ireland too.

algarkirk

MattW said:

Sean_F said:

Carnyx said:

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

Well, plenty of pubs called the King's Head and Nag's Head ... plenty of horses, but kings are scarcer altogether and the assorted Royal Families do get possessive.

Back in the day, (the 11th to 13th centuries) the Muslim world viewed the crusades as a virtual irrelevance, because they occupied so little territory. Hulegu Khan, on the other hand, came close to destroying the Muslim world.

Back then the rest of Europe was an irrelevance (more or less) surely?

The Byzantine Empire was still standing, and Europe was a backwater.

We have since had, and are still in (ish), an era of Western dominance.

And the Arab World is arguably one of the least successful global regions, with a ready self-justifying narrative of crusaders available.

On the subject of Crusades generally, I have no desire to defend them or whatever, but in that period the crusades were just one set of violent empire building projects commonly found all over the place. The folks seeking to conquer/liberate/recapture Jerusalem were neither better nor worse than their predecessors - who had previously done the same - and their successors.

StuartDickson

pillsbury said:

JosiasJessop said:

Near me, there's a pub (the Old Ferry Boat Inn near St Ives) that has a woman's body buried beneath the floor, near the bar. The woman died nearly 1,000 years ago.

Allegedly.

And to reignite an old debate: some claim the inn to be the oldest inn in England. Innit?

Innit or outside it, I would think, as they are basically an English invention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popina

JosiasJessop

NickPalmer said:

algarkirk said:

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Just about the least impressive analogy available. In a world requiring stability within established structures new state formation within democracies should be:

possible
difficult and demanding
only available with very strong numbers to support it
not allowed to crowd out everyday issues and dominate the agenda.

The SNP fails critically on the numbers issue.

In general I think a persistent success by a separatist party should give the basis for a referendum every 20 years or so, but if the result vary by region then the separatists shouldn't be allowed to claim the entire area merely because they claim a historical identity - rather, the Schleswig-Holstein approach should be taken so that only those parts who are pro-separatist should split off. Cf. Northern Ireland too.

That's a neat idea, but it has a rather interesting potential issue: enclaves. As an example: if the Borders of Scotland voted to remain in the UK whilst the rest of Scotland voted for independence, then the border could just be redrawn.

But what if Edinburgh/the Lothians voted to remain, along with Dundee?

Dura_Ace

algarkirk said:

MattW said:

Sean_F said:

Carnyx said:

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

Well, plenty of pubs called the King's Head and Nag's Head ... plenty of horses, but kings are scarcer altogether and the assorted Royal Families do get possessive.

Back in the day, (the 11th to 13th centuries) the Muslim world viewed the crusades as a virtual irrelevance, because they occupied so little territory. Hulegu Khan, on the other hand, came close to destroying the Muslim world.

Back then the rest of Europe was an irrelevance (more or less) surely?

The Byzantine Empire was still standing, and Europe was a backwater.

We have since had, and are still in (ish), an era of Western dominance.

And the Arab World is arguably one of the least successful global regions, with a ready self-justifying narrative of crusaders available.

On the subject of Crusades generally, I have no desire to defend them or whatever, but in that period the crusades were just one set of violent empire building projects commonly found all over the place. The folks seeking to conquer/liberate/recapture Jerusalem were neither better nor worse than their predecessors - who had previously done the same - and their successors.

No. 14 Squadron RAF have a Crusader Cross and a quote from the Holy Qu'ran in Arabic on their badge. All bases covered.

StuartDickson

NickPalmer said:

algarkirk said:

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Just about the least impressive analogy available. In a world requiring stability within established structures new state formation within democracies should be:

possible
difficult and demanding
only available with very strong numbers to support it
not allowed to crowd out everyday issues and dominate the agenda.

The SNP fails critically on the numbers issue.

In general I think a persistent success by a separatist party should give the basis for a referendum every 20 years or so, but if the result vary by region then the separatists shouldn't be allowed to claim the entire area merely because they claim a historical identity - rather, the Schleswig-Holstein approach should be taken so that only those parts who are pro-separatist should split off. Cf. Northern Ireland too.

Nick playing the partition card. I thought better of you. That is low. Really, really low.

Sean_F

MattW said:

Sean_F said:

Carnyx said:

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

Ghedebrav said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

True, but in much of the arab world (and beyond) the term 'crusader' is a bit like 'jihadist' in the west. Neither understanding is correct, but there it is.

Just think of a certain football team not a million miles from the wet bit between Ireland and Britain, and how their fans play up sometimes, and the pearl-clutching on here when they do.


PS And I did once wonder how the locals reacted to the Crusader tank being sent out in WW2 to play a major role in the Western Desert (and to some extent Tunisian) campaigns.

There's a pub in Bath called The Saracen's Head, in these enlightened times adorned with a sign depicting a Saracen from Central Casting. I dread to think what was hanging up there in days of yore.

Well, plenty of pubs called the King's Head and Nag's Head ... plenty of horses, but kings are scarcer altogether and the assorted Royal Families do get possessive.

Back in the day, (the 11th to 13th centuries) the Muslim world viewed the crusades as a virtual irrelevance, because they occupied so little territory. Hulegu Khan, on the other hand, came close to destroying the Muslim world.

Back then the rest of Europe was an irrelevance (more or less) surely?

The Byzantine Empire was still standing, and Europe was a backwater.

We have since had, and are still in (ish), an era of Western dominance.

And the Arab World is arguably one of the least successful global regions, with a ready self-justifying narrative of crusaders available.

Anti-crusader rhetoric was really an invention of Arab nationalists in the 20th century.

Sean_F

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. F, yeah, interesting article (and one wonders at the numismatic value of the coin now).

Dacia ceased to be formally a province, in 275, but Roman military and civilian involvement in the area continued for centuries afterwards. It's similar to Southern Scotland, which was sometimes a province, and sometimes ruled more indirectly.

bigjohnowls

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

StuartDickson said:

Carnyx said:

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Doubt it. The tweet has been deleted.

How to cancel a union.

How do I go about cancelling the Union from England?

Follow the legal route?

You are Suella Braveman and i claim my prize

DecrepiterJohnL

Scott_xP said:

Utterly extraordinary.

Here is a Secretary of State explicitly arguing that joining the Pacific trade bloc is a great move, not because it can fix the economic damage that the Tories have caused, but because it will tie the hands of an incoming Labour gov't trying to fix it. ~AA

https://twitter.com/GregHands/status/1595689784990736386

Did people not notice how much of Jeremy Hunt's budget simply punted problems onto the next government? Should we assume Hunt was unaware of the opinion polls and was not trying to entrap Labour?

algarkirk

JosiasJessop said:

NickPalmer said:

algarkirk said:

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Just about the least impressive analogy available. In a world requiring stability within established structures new state formation within democracies should be:

possible
difficult and demanding
only available with very strong numbers to support it
not allowed to crowd out everyday issues and dominate the agenda.

The SNP fails critically on the numbers issue.

In general I think a persistent success by a separatist party should give the basis for a referendum every 20 years or so, but if the result vary by region then the separatists shouldn't be allowed to claim the entire area merely because they claim a historical identity - rather, the Schleswig-Holstein approach should be taken so that only those parts who are pro-separatist should split off. Cf. Northern Ireland too.

That's a neat idea, but it has a rather interesting potential issue: enclaves. As an example: if the Borders of Scotland voted to remain in the UK whilst the rest of Scotland voted for independence, then the border could just be redrawn.

But what if Edinburgh/the Lothians voted to remain, along with Dundee?

I think we would end up looking like a map of the Holy Roman Empire in about 1300.

Seriously, the right answer, I think, is in requiring a high bar for the mandate - 66% or thereabouts?

bigjohnowls

No comment required it speaks for itself

https://twitter.com/KernowDamo/status/1595702919197769728/photo/1

algarkirk

Sean_F said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. F, yeah, interesting article (and one wonders at the numismatic value of the coin now).

Dacia ceased to be formally a province, in 275, but Roman military and civilian involvement in the area continued for centuries afterwards. It's similar to Southern Scotland, which was sometimes a province, and sometimes ruled more indirectly.

She grips the animal-shoulder naked skin
Of his fitted leather jacket,
Letting a wake of hair float out the spin
And dazzled rinse of air,
Yet for all their headlong lurch and flatulent racket
They seem to loiter there,

Forever aslant in their moment and the mind’s eye.
Meanwhile, around the column
There also turn, and turn eternally,
Two thousand raw recruits
And scarred veterans coiling the stone in solemn
Military pursuits,

The heft and grit of the emperor’s Dacian Wars
That lasted fifteen years.
All of that youth and purpose is, of course,
No more than so much dust.
And even Trajan, of his imperial peers
Accounted “the most just,”

Honoured by Dante, by Gregory the Great
Saved from eternal Hell,
Swirls in the motes kicked up by the cough and spate
Of the Vespa’s blue exhaust,
And a voice whispers inwardly, “My soul,
It is the cost, the cost,”


From Anthony Hecht 'The Cost'

FrankBooth

Sean_F said:

pillsbury said:

StuartDickson said:

Latest royal net positivity ratings (9-10 Nov)

Prince William +69
Catherine +64
Princess Anne +64
Princess Diana +53
King Charles +43
Prince Edward +38
The institution of the monarchy +30
Camilla +15
Prince Harry -13
Meghan -32
Prince Andrew -79

https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1595726999196209152?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

Prince Andrew as popular as Tory prime ministers in the Caledonian colony.

Good to see clear blue water between poor old Megs, and the Duke of Pork. January gonna be less dull than usual, with the publication of The Book.

How can 6% of the population have a positive view of Prince Andrew?

Some people 'fans' will refuse to believe their hero has done anything wrong. They must have been stitched up. Others I'm afraid may take the view that he's entitled to be a bit of a 'lad'.

RochdalePioneers

CarlottaVance said:

As the dust starts to settle on the Supreme Court verdict, it’s incredibly important that Nationalist and Unionist alike understand there remains a lawful, constitutional and democratic path to independence for those who wish to pursue it 1/

That path is persuasion. Everyone understands & agrees that the decision-maker is the Scottish people. So, if you want indy, persuade them! When it is clearly and constantly the settled will of the Scottish people to have either indyref2 or independence itself, they’ll have it 2/

Yesterday’s ruling did nothing to change that. Ever since Margaret Thatcher was PM the UK state has been perfectly clear that it will not seek to obstruct the settled will of the Scottish people. Opinion polling will tell us what the people want 3/

If polls show clear and constant majority support for indyref2 or for indy itself, so be it. Nicola Sturgeon said this herself—get to 60% support for 6, 9, or 12 months and that’s settled will—and in those circumstances the UK state will not block what Scotland wants 4/

In that sense, and contrary to what Ms Sturgeon is now saying, the UK is and always has been a voluntary union. More so than Canada (whose Provinces cannot unilaterally secede). Much more so than the US (whose States cannot secede at all) 5/

Those opposed to independence should campaign for Scots to agree with them, that our true priorities are health, economy, schools, and hospitals, leaving the Nationalists to fixate on indy. That’s politics. It’s lawful, constitutional and democratic. That’s as it should be. /End

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1595700411620532226

It will be fascinating to see how the SNP play the coming GE campaign. A faux referendum on independence she says, people should vote on their record in government the opposition say. In reality it is neither - SNP MPs are not in government and have no record as such to defend, but at the same time a vote for a named candidate (what you legally vote for, not the party or the leader) is not a mandate for "a referendum".

There is so much right in Scotland - and so much wrong. I'm glad the SC ruled as it did, but "the issue is settled, shut up and go away" from unionists will not make that happen. Whatever happened to both sides making a positive case for what they want?

Morris_Dancer

I'm sure the residents of southern France will be relieved that, finally, the crusading outfits aren't allowed any more.

kamski

JosiasJessop said:

NickPalmer said:

algarkirk said:

StuartDickson said:

Just told my wife that whilst our union was consensual, she does not have the power to leave as she is not oppressed (although I have restricted her freedom of movement and banned engagement with our neighbours). I’ve told her we can discuss this again in a generation ;-)

https://twitter.com/jamesrwithers/status/1595369378270298112?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

I assume she took the news well?

Just about the least impressive analogy available. In a world requiring stability within established structures new state formation within democracies should be:

possible
difficult and demanding
only available with very strong numbers to support it
not allowed to crowd out everyday issues and dominate the agenda.

The SNP fails critically on the numbers issue.

In general I think a persistent success by a separatist party should give the basis for a referendum every 20 years or so, but if the result vary by region then the separatists shouldn't be allowed to claim the entire area merely because they claim a historical identity - rather, the Schleswig-Holstein approach should be taken so that only those parts who are pro-separatist should split off. Cf. Northern Ireland too.

That's a neat idea, but it has a rather interesting potential issue: enclaves. As an example: if the Borders of Scotland voted to remain in the UK whilst the rest of Scotland voted for independence, then the border could just be redrawn.

But what if Edinburgh/the Lothians voted to remain, along with Dundee?

It's not a neat idea, it's a really stupid idea, which I assumed was made as a joke (or some weird Brexit reference)

Ghedebrav

JosiasJessop said:

Near me, there's a pub (the Old Ferry Boat Inn near St Ives) that has a woman's body buried beneath the floor, near the bar. The woman died nearly 1,000 years ago.

Allegedly.

And to reignite an old debate: some claim the inn to be the oldest inn in England. Innit?

Here's your guy for this: https://twitter.com/jpwarchaeology/status/1522202352723369986?lang=en

algarkirk

CarlottaVance said:

As the dust starts to settle on the Supreme Court verdict, it’s incredibly important that Nationalist and Unionist alike understand there remains a lawful, constitutional and democratic path to independence for those who wish to pursue it 1/

That path is persuasion. Everyone understands & agrees that the decision-maker is the Scottish people. So, if you want indy, persuade them! When it is clearly and constantly the settled will of the Scottish people to have either indyref2 or independence itself, they’ll have it 2/

Yesterday’s ruling did nothing to change that. Ever since Margaret Thatcher was PM the UK state has been perfectly clear that it will not seek to obstruct the settled will of the Scottish people. Opinion polling will tell us what the people want 3/

If polls show clear and constant majority support for indyref2 or for indy itself, so be it. Nicola Sturgeon said this herself—get to 60% support for 6, 9, or 12 months and that’s settled will—and in those circumstances the UK state will not block what Scotland wants 4/

In that sense, and contrary to what Ms Sturgeon is now saying, the UK is and always has been a voluntary union. More so than Canada (whose Provinces cannot unilaterally secede). Much more so than the US (whose States cannot secede at all) 5/

Those opposed to independence should campaign for Scots to agree with them, that our true priorities are health, economy, schools, and hospitals, leaving the Nationalists to fixate on indy. That’s politics. It’s lawful, constitutional and democratic. That’s as it should be. /End

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1595700411620532226

What an amazing amount of common sense all in one go.

Foxy

Sean_F said:

pillsbury said:

StuartDickson said:

Latest royal net positivity ratings (9-10 Nov)

Prince William +69
Catherine +64
Princess Anne +64
Princess Diana +53
King Charles +43
Prince Edward +38
The institution of the monarchy +30
Camilla +15
Prince Harry -13
Meghan -32
Prince Andrew -79

https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1595726999196209152?s=46&t=zXcDW_tNSdAhushtct9iZg

Prince Andrew as popular as Tory prime ministers in the Caledonian colony.

Good to see clear blue water between poor old Megs, and the Duke of Pork. January gonna be less dull than usual, with the publication of The Book.

How can 6% of the population have a positive view of Prince Andrew?

Perhaps they too are dirty old men lusting after hot teenage girls?

MarqueeMark

Scott_xP said:

Utterly extraordinary.

Here is a Secretary of State explicitly arguing that joining the Pacific trade bloc is a great move, not because it can fix the economic damage that the Tories have caused, but because it will tie the hands of an incoming Labour gov't trying to fix it. ~AA

https://twitter.com/GregHands/status/1595689784990736386

"Utterly extraordinary."

How politically naive can you get?

I'm sure all on the Left were clutching their pearls when former Labour adviser Andrew Neather notoriously said hugely increased migration was a policy devised to 'rub the Right's nose in diversity' – that is, to change the UK's ethnic make-up as a taunt to Middle England.

Oh no, they were giggling.

Until Brexit.

turbotubbs

MarqueeMark said:

JosiasJessop said:

Talking of inappropriate pub names and signs:

https://www.wondersofthepeak.org.uk/chapters/the-quiet-woman/

Of course, situated at the foot of Nottingham Castle and nestled in the sandstone cliff rock, Ye Olde Trip To Jerusalem is England's oldest inn.

It doesn't reference a holiday destination....

Possibly. The Adam and Eve in Norwich also claims the title (I think). Both are certainly very old and a great thrill to drink somewhere that old.

EPG

MarqueeMark said:

Scott_xP said:

Utterly extraordinary.

Here is a Secretary of State explicitly arguing that joining the Pacific trade bloc is a great move, not because it can fix the economic damage that the Tories have caused, but because it will tie the hands of an incoming Labour gov't trying to fix it. ~AA

https://twitter.com/GregHands/status/1595689784990736386

"Utterly extraordinary."

How politically naive can you get?

I'm sure all on the Left were clutching their pearls when former Labour adviser Andrew Neather notoriously said hugely increased migration was a policy devised to 'rub the Right's nose in diversity' – that is, to change the UK's ethnic make-up as a taunt to Middle England.

Oh no, they were giggling.

Until Brexit.

It's no different to the fiscal delay policy of almost every Chancellor since the 90s bar Osborne. Hope the other guy pays the bill. Most recently Hunt on social care.

turbotubbs

MattW said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

'Yer carnt even wear a hauberk and crusader's surcoat without bein' arrested nowadays!'

It's funny, but I do think that sounds like bullshit. Getting triggered by medieval armour? There's been more modern depredations, but armour wielding knights was a bloody long time ago.

Compare with European countries that have banned the Burka, perhaps?

Triggered by a headscarf.

The headscarf is a more nuanced argument though. I know plenty of muslim women claim to like wearing it, but in Iran right now there seems to be a bit of a revolt against it. In the west we see it as oppression of women's rights. I don't think dressing up in anachronistic costume is the same thing. Would they react the same to a Roman get up? Also involved in massive blood-letting and conquering in the middle east.