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Starmer: The heir to Miliband? – politicalbetting.com

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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,177
    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322



    ..except over the dinner table with a few select friends.

    So.... bankers are flying in to London now that they can have huge bonuses, they shorted the £ and made a pile of money and Ms Truss is now reported as going to cut taxes in the new year.

    She is either an economic genius of Einsteinian proportions beyond the understanding of everyone, or else she is an utter twat.

    My money is on twat!
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,485
    edited September 25
    I have it on good authority that Putin has never actually heard of Ed Miliband.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    If the Labour Party has a problem with our national flag and our Head of State it isn't ready for Government.

    People won't elect a party to govern them that is disgusted by its own country.

    Clearly it doesn't. I wouldn't take a few hard lefties on twitter as representative of Labour post-Corbyn.
    These people aren't even Labour members anymore.

    Labour membership now is the most centrist it has been since 2005.
    Yes the lefty outrage on twitter is anger over Labour feeling comfortable flying the flag, not that Labour isn't comfortable flying the flag.
    I feel very much welcomed and representative of the Labour membership at present. I consider myself pretty much centre left.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,485

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    I'm not a socialist (in any form) but I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    I don't mind what vision people have for the UK as long as they love it.
    Hm. The BNP and other fascist groups would claim they love the UK. Is their vision okay?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    If the Labour Party has a problem with our national flag and our Head of State it isn't ready for Government.

    People won't elect a party to govern them that is disgusted by its own country.

    I just don't think it appropriate to have pictures of the Monarch, or ex Monarch as the centrepiece of a Political Party Conference. Same for the national anthem.

    If the Monarchy is to survive it needs to remain above Party politics, and that responsibility is not just on Royalty, but also on the parties.
    Just to be clear, are you opposing it because you support the monarchy and are worried this might damage the monarchy?
    That is the gist.

    No party has a monopoly on patriotism, nor should it pretend to. The Monarchy, anthem and flag are all national symbols not political ones.
    Fails by LD and Lab, LD worse, in not seeing that intense can still be transient. ER II is sooo last week. Life goes on. Davy is a teat autocorrect, but he is that too
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,109
    MaxPB said:

    If the Labour Party has a problem with our national flag and our Head of State it isn't ready for Government.

    People won't elect a party to govern them that is disgusted by its own country.

    Clearly it doesn't. I wouldn't take a few hard lefties on twitter as representative of Labour post-Corbyn.
    Of course.

    I must say, though, I'm not fooled. There's no doubt in my mind that Starmer secretly shares almost all the prejudices of all North London liberal and finds the monarchy anachronistic and embarrassing and our flag chauvinist and "unprogressive".

    However, he's smart enough to read the tea leaves and ambitious enough know this is electoral kryptonite so he is strategically pushing ahead with whatever he needs to do to win. The most triangular of triangualtors triangles.

    Contrast this with Blair who, although a bit of a weasel, I had no doubt was a man of faith and belief in this country.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,476
    Cookie said:

    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?


    Life moves fast. The mournfest is over, and using the late Queen a bit distasteful.

    On the other hand the graph in the header shows what a patriotic but dull and uncharismatic London lawyer can do. 1945 was far and away the outstanding GE in that graph.

    Yep, the tacky opportunism is what struck me after I wtf-ed. As noted previously the QEII wave of emotion has subsided much more quickly than even I anticipated, and SKS & co may have missed that particular boat (stop mixing yr fcking metaphors-Ed). However I always thought Lab’s best move was concentrating on England rather than eg depending on some unlikely SLab revival; looks like SKS has decided to do the hard, dirty work required.
    OTOH no harm in having a patriotic and QE2-commemorating bit at the start, with photos, when he's doing his beginning thing: doesn't look as if it will be there all the time. Ticks it off the list and avoids the Tories attacking him if he doesn't, and plastering the late Her Maj all over their conference.
    Agree. I don't see any downside. Winds up a few ultra-lefties, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, and draws a very clear line between Starmer and the Thornberry tweet.
    The Rochester flag one? All of 8 years ago?
    Well, a line between Starmer and that kind of patronising stuff Labour used to come out with. There is a reason he's been going to pretty much every England game.
    He is a genuine football fan, and played regularly himself.

    He's predictably a Gooner isn't he? I preferred it when PMs in waiting followed less fashionable sides like West Ham Villa.
    Yet when he came out in support of England during the Euros he looked clunky, awkward and insincere.
    It was weird. This should have been the one area where his authenticity wasn't in doubt.



    And if you knew anything about him you knew he was genuine.
    It's not that he can't fake sincerity. He can't even do sincerity sincerely.
    Well I missed the mark with my little quip didn't I? Sorry about that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer's ratings are not as good as Blair's or Cameron's on the Ben Page chart but about the same as John Smith's at this stage and Smith would likely have won in 1997.

    The odds of him winning a majority are certainly low and he is unlikely to match the Blair and Attlee landslides. A more realistic target for him would be the Cameron gains in 2010 which would give him most seats in a hung parliament

    To be fair, as with Cameron, a 100 seat advance would be pretty impressive and would make it very difficult for Labour not to be leading the next Government.

    As we're already seeing, Truss is likely to be a polarising figure and those who support her will be with her to the very end (and perhaps beyond).

    If a post-Government Conservative Opposition is still seen to be following policies akin to Truss/Kwarteng it will be hugely beneficial to Starmer in holding together any alternative grouping of parties as, pace Orwell, none of them will want to see "Jones" back.
    At the moment Starmer is likely to win most seats so could likely form a minority government even if no formal deals. If Truss loses Badenoch or Braverman I would make as favourites to be next Tory leader and yes few of the minor parties would back them over Starmer in a hung parliament except the DUP
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,177
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 1,485

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    It is humans who ask God to save the King, but the opinion of the Almighty is not known. The Creator of the nearly infinite Universe might have a soft spot for little humans, but it can hardly be surprising that "Mysterious Ways" is the default option, when we can understand so little of the Universe itself. Objectively, venerating some nearly random descendants of Saxon chieftains is a fairly bizarre idea, so perhaps God thinks that saving them is kind of optional.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
  • edited September 25
    Kipchoge got a 2:01:11 at Berlin today (estimated), not a sub 2 breaker it looks like sadly
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    edited September 25

    MaxPB said:

    If the Labour Party has a problem with our national flag and our Head of State it isn't ready for Government.

    People won't elect a party to govern them that is disgusted by its own country.

    Clearly it doesn't. I wouldn't take a few hard lefties on twitter as representative of Labour post-Corbyn.
    Of course.

    I must say, though, I'm not fooled. There's no doubt in my mind that Starmer secretly shares almost all the prejudices of all North London liberal and finds the monarchy anachronistic and embarrassing and our flag chauvinist and "unprogressive".

    However, he's smart enough to read the tea leaves and ambitious enough know this is electoral kryptonite so he is strategically pushing ahead with whatever he needs to do to win. The most triangular of triangualtors triangles.

    Contrast this with Blair who, although a bit of a weasel, I had no doubt was a man of faith and belief in this country.
    I would say Starmer would be OK with a more Sweden style monarchy, he is not a diehard republican like Corbyn was. He also strikes me as a genuine Unionist, if anything the St George's flag and Scottish Saltire are more associated with Nationalism than the Union flag now
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 1,485
    edited September 25
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    Actually MPs (and Jurors) can take an affirmation rather than an oath, and when there is an option I generally opt to affirm rather than to swear.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,177
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    They can I think, if atheists, affirm. As in the courts.
  • 2:01:39 final time.

    Fastest marathon in a genuine race in history, no doubt we will soon break 2 hours
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,493

    There's one area where Starmer and Miliband are *very* different: Russia. Miliband's hideous refusal to react to Syrian use of chemical weapons in 2013 - a refusal done for narrow political reasons, and which caused the US to pull out of of action as well. This happened despite agreeing a deal with Cameron.

    That happened in 2013, and I'd argue it sent Russia a very strong message that the west was too divided to act, even against the use of chemical weapons. That would have been at the very least in the back of Putin's mind when he ordered the Crimean takeover, his Donbass adventures and Salisbury; let alone this year's folly.

    He thought the west was weak and divided; we gave indications that we were weak and divided. He's learnt that whilst we may be weak and divided, we're not weak and divided enough.

    I see no indication that Starmer would be weaker against Russia than Truss (though that may or may not have been the case if he had been in charge in February. That's a key difference with Miliband.

    Many anti-war loons go on about 'eastwards expansion of NATO' or 'Ukrainian Nazis'. It's a shame they cannot look deep into their own souls and look at their own responsibility.

    An inverted pyramid of piffle.

    David Cameron could not convince even his own party to back his Syrian adventurism. Cameron also tried and failed to make a deal with Putin on Syria. The United States did not need British backing had it decided to use force against Syria; America offered to release Britain from any supposed obligation to join its actions against Afghanistan and Iraq; similarly, America did not need Ed Miliband to convince them not to intervene against Syria.

    Away from the Middle East, there were many on the right who condemned either Nato or EU expansion up to Russia's borders, but, like America, perhaps Russia too made its own decisions.

    Let us hope the Ukraine war is no longer a factor by the time the next election rolls round.
    Oh come off it! Your crass denialism is exactly why the left - even the sane left such as yourself - will just allow this sort of sh*t to happen again when they get power.

    Labour and the left - along with others - turned a blind eye to the use of WMD against civilians. The world is not paying the consequences of that.
    You are shifting ground slightly. The situation in Syria was unclear at the time, with almost no-one on the side of the angels. Were we to fight alongside ISIS or Al Qaeda? Earlier Western intervention in Iraq and then in Libya had not ended well. The contention that Miliband caused no action to be taken is preposterous. David Cameron had failed to convince Russia, America or even his own backbenchers that this time it would be different.

    Nor is there any reason to link Syria with Russia invading Ukraine.
    The situation on the ground really was not unclear - that is rewriting history because our lack of support changed the situation on the ground. and the good people/groups pretty much got wiped out. It was also very clear that the Assad regime was using chemical weapons. You think it is unclear because it benefits you to do do so, because you know your side f***ed up.

    We betrayed good people and allowed evil to flourish. We then allowed evil in the form of Putin to get involved, and gave evil the impression we'd do nothing when evil occurred in the future.

    As for your last line. What message do you think Putin got from Miliband stopping the west from intervening against Assad, when Assad used chemical weapons? Do you think Putin thought: "Oh, the west is strong. I'd better not invade Crimea next year?"
    Speaking of allowing evil to flourish, what's your current position on Turkey's occupation of Cyprus and its invasion of parts of Syria to get at the Kurds? I believe that last time you were asked; 'it's very complicated' was your masterful response.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,334
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    If Almighty God is good and wise, young HY, and divinely ordains Parliament, he would have set it up with a system of STV in multi-member constituencies right from the beginning. Surely???

    And I see that once again Starmer is set to betray us over PR on behalf of the Labour Party. You just cannot trust Labour.
  • Morning all! The LizII banner at the Labour conference is brilliant. yes of course its naff. But you can't say that any of the LizII tributes are naff even when they clearly are. Because the Queen.

    Starmer gets to demonstrate clearly and distinctly that Labour are patriotic. Singing the Anthem. The big tribute. And hopefully security dragging a few trot loons out of the hall.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,642

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1573775346213834753?t=CksIXkao7FpXpoqtzzUHGQ&s=19

    How fortunate that #shortingthepound should be so profitable in the same year that bonuses are uncapped!

    What would we do without these delightful people being attracted to the City?

    If it wasn’t for the pound collapse most normal non-political people wouldn’t have figured the budget was a bad thing.

    That sort of communication device is valuable
    People don't wake up on a given morning and think I'm going to short the pound. Equally, you could have listened to Truss at a Party rally and realised what direction she was heading.

    People take currency bets because they take economic views and these people did just that it seems. They in so doing also showed governments their actions have real world consequences. Whether good or bad we of course funny know yet although we do know (@rcs1000) that ceteris is never particularly paribus.

    People like @Foxy misunderestimate
    how it all works.
    I have effectively been shorting the pound for some time, shifting my equities into companies based overseas or earning overseas.

    No insider knowledge needed, as the decline of Sterling was nailed on.
    Absolutely couldn't agree more. I still have my Brexit position on (dollar-weighted) which is the gift that keeps on giving.

    So you and I did exactly what those hedgies (apparently) did. Without the billions, however, sadly. It's like that other that irregular verb: I have a sensible ISA, you operate at the margins...
    ‘He is being investigated by the Financial Conduct Authority’?

    Didn't see that what is the charge? He tells some hedgies what his leader has been telling the nation for the past three months?
    I think TPP is merely completing the syntax of the irregular verb.
    Gah sorry!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,493
    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Observer, I must slightly disagree. Yes, Starmer isn't a source of enthusiasm, but given the current Truss economic plan is going down about as well as Varro's cunning idea of attacking Hannibal at Cannae the bar for looking a better alternative than the incumbent government is lowered very substantially.

    Mr. Dickson, what exactly has annoyed them so?

    Conservation groups brand mini-budget an ‘attack on nature’
    - RSPB, Wildlife Trusts and National Trust criticise plans to create 38 ‘investment zones’ across England

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/24/conservation-groups-brand-mini-budget-an-attack-on-nature
    No investment no wealth no consumption no levelling up no improvement in economic circumstances no environmental impact. Is presumably what these groups want.
    The Greens are now explicitly against economic growth.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,112
    Thatcher handwritten memo to then top economics adviser Turnbull in Jan 1985 - only ever time in history sterling has been at current levels $1.08…

    “What CAN we do?” (triple underlined) after Turnbull explains the difficulties on setting a bear squeeze trap for £ speculators…


    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1573963808304930816/photo/1
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,112
    If the press officer knows, then surely Kwasi Kwarteng knew ten mins ago.

    Anyway, confirmed that No 10 Chief of Staff is being paid via his lobbying firm, which means we don’t know how much he is paid or potentially who he answers to, as per @Gabriel_Pogrund scoop.


    https://twitter.com/gabriel_pogrund/status/1573960506200788993
  • Nigelb said:

    Are NASA going to leave it out and hope it gets blown over so they can cancel it ?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/63022093

    Probably for the best. "Sorry Congress, God broke it. Its a sign that we should give up and let Elon do it."
  • TV Wales say the same sample were asked about Mark Drakeford.

    - Doing Well as Labour Leader - 54%
    - Doing Badly - 35%
    - Don't Know - 11%

    Big G must be gutted.

    Good morning

    I will answer this directly

    Labour have been in power in Wales for decades and yet we have some of the worst poverty in the UK, a failing NHS, and education system, plus a proposed tourist tax and reducing all 30mph to 20mph

    We also have a large public sector and as in Scotland, Wales is effectively a socialist fiefdom

    However I do support the Welsh Government’s attack on holiday homes and not everything they do is negative

    The main factor for me is that it is Westminster that dictates the tax rates hence why I support a conservative government over a labour one

    I have just listened to Starmer on BBC and frankly it was embarrassing when he couldn't give any answer on how he would deal with a price cap beyond April 23, and even worse how labour's drive for big increases in wind and solar to make UK energy zero by 2030 when, as Kuenessberg said, that last Friday that just 15% came from wind. To be fair Starmer did say we would need oil and gas for a transition period which comes back to the point Truss is making in investing in North Sea licences for that transition period of maybe 20 years

    We can all say someone has a car crash interview, but maybe addressing the issues head on rather than one liners is a more sensible way of debate
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    If Almighty God is good and wise, young HY, and divinely ordains Parliament, he would have set it up with a system of STV in multi-member constituencies right from the beginning. Surely???

    And I see that once again Starmer is set to betray us over PR on behalf of the Labour Party. You just cannot trust Labour.
    PR is a goal for LDs and minor parties mainly, not Labour or the Tories as they like their dominance of Westminster
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,476
    edited September 25

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    I'm not a socialist (in any form) but I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    I don't mind what vision people have for the UK as long as they love it.
    Back in the day I used to have this quaint notion that when I bought big ticket items I should buy British, even though the quality was a bit iffy. Supporting Britain, supporting British workers against the tide seemed the right thing to do. My Tory friends laughed at my folly from the comfort of their German and Japanese cars. British workers are lazy and their product poor they would say. Of course they realised they could claim their redemption by saluting the flag.

    I watched in horror as British manufacturing moved out and the jobs were lost. Why are Brits so unpatriotic I thought? The Police in their BMWs, the ambulance service in their Mercedes trucks, Volvo fire engines and Royal Mail Peugeot vans. This wouldn't happen in France or Germany!

    So then there was nothing British to buy so I have a home full of German white goods and a drive full of German cars. But it's OK, I can salute the Union flag. That makes me a patriot.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    MaxPB said:

    If the Labour Party has a problem with our national flag and our Head of State it isn't ready for Government.

    People won't elect a party to govern them that is disgusted by its own country.

    Clearly it doesn't. I wouldn't take a few hard lefties on twitter as representative of Labour post-Corbyn.
    Of course.

    I must say, though, I'm not fooled. There's no doubt in my mind that Starmer secretly shares almost all the prejudices of all North London liberal and finds the monarchy anachronistic and embarrassing and our flag chauvinist and "unprogressive".

    However, he's smart enough to read the tea leaves and ambitious enough know this is electoral kryptonite so he is strategically pushing ahead with whatever he needs to do to win. The most triangular of triangualtors triangles.

    Contrast this with Blair who, although a bit of a weasel, I had no doubt was a man of faith and belief in this country.
    no, he is old school establishment, what with the DPP and knighthood thing (accepting the K wasn't a no brainer given his ambitions, he wanted it for itself.) He looks VERY comfortable being on chatting terms with KC III. Indeed, all pols senior enough to have hobnobbed with ER II gave the impression it was pretty much the high spot of their lives.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,311
    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    If Almighty God is good and wise, young HY, and divinely ordains Parliament, he would have set it up with a system of STV in multi-member constituencies right from the beginning. Surely???

    And I see that once again Starmer is set to betray us over PR on behalf of the Labour Party. You just cannot trust Labour.
    PR is a goal for LDs and minor parties mainly, not Labour or the Tories as they like their dominance of Westminster
    Labour last `dominated' Westminster more than 12 years ago.... and its not likely to change for quite a few years, at best a very slim (non-dominant) majority beckons......
  • edited September 25

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    I'm not a socialist (in any form) but I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    I don't mind what vision people have for the UK as long as they love it.
    Back in the day I used to have this quaint notion that when I bought big ticket items I should buy British, even though the quality was a bit iffy. Supporting Britain, supporting British workers, against the tide seemed the right thing to do. My Tory friends laughed at my folly from the comfort of their German and Japanese cars. British workers are lazy and their product poor they would say. Of course they realised they could claim their redemption by saluting the flag.

    I watched in horror as British manufacturing moved out and the jobs were lost. Why are Brits so unpatriotic I thought? The Police in their BMWs, the ambulance service in their Mercedes trucks, Volvo fire engines and Royal Mail Peugeot vans. This wouldn't happen in France or Germany!

    So then there was nothing British to buy so I have a home full of German white goods and a drive full of German cars. But it's OK, I can salute the Union flag. That makes me a patriot.
    The French high performance Police cars I thought were German to be honest
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,974

    There's one area where Starmer and Miliband are *very* different: Russia. Miliband's hideous refusal to react to Syrian use of chemical weapons in 2013 - a refusal done for narrow political reasons, and which caused the US to pull out of of action as well. This happened despite agreeing a deal with Cameron.

    That happened in 2013, and I'd argue it sent Russia a very strong message that the west was too divided to act, even against the use of chemical weapons. That would have been at the very least in the back of Putin's mind when he ordered the Crimean takeover, his Donbass adventures and Salisbury; let alone this year's folly.

    He thought the west was weak and divided; we gave indications that we were weak and divided. He's learnt that whilst we may be weak and divided, we're not weak and divided enough.

    I see no indication that Starmer would be weaker against Russia than Truss (though that may or may not have been the case if he had been in charge in February. That's a key difference with Miliband.

    Many anti-war loons go on about 'eastwards expansion of NATO' or 'Ukrainian Nazis'. It's a shame they cannot look deep into their own souls and look at their own responsibility.

    An inverted pyramid of piffle.

    David Cameron could not convince even his own party to back his Syrian adventurism. Cameron also tried and failed to make a deal with Putin on Syria. The United States did not need British backing had it decided to use force against Syria; America offered to release Britain from any supposed obligation to join its actions against Afghanistan and Iraq; similarly, America did not need Ed Miliband to convince them not to intervene against Syria.

    Away from the Middle East, there were many on the right who condemned either Nato or EU expansion up to Russia's borders, but, like America, perhaps Russia too made its own decisions.

    Let us hope the Ukraine war is no longer a factor by the time the next election rolls round.
    Oh come off it! Your crass denialism is exactly why the left - even the sane left such as yourself - will just allow this sort of sh*t to happen again when they get power.

    Labour and the left - along with others - turned a blind eye to the use of WMD against civilians. The world is not paying the consequences of that.
    You are shifting ground slightly. The situation in Syria was unclear at the time, with almost no-one on the side of the angels. Were we to fight alongside ISIS or Al Qaeda? Earlier Western intervention in Iraq and then in Libya had not ended well. The contention that Miliband caused no action to be taken is preposterous. David Cameron had failed to convince Russia, America or even his own backbenchers that this time it would be different.

    Nor is there any reason to link Syria with Russia invading Ukraine.
    The situation on the ground really was not unclear - that is rewriting history because our lack of support changed the situation on the ground. and the good people/groups pretty much got wiped out. It was also very clear that the Assad regime was using chemical weapons. You think it is unclear because it benefits you to do do so, because you know your side f***ed up.

    We betrayed good people and allowed evil to flourish. We then allowed evil in the form of Putin to get involved, and gave evil the impression we'd do nothing when evil occurred in the future.

    As for your last line. What message do you think Putin got from Miliband stopping the west from intervening against Assad, when Assad used chemical weapons? Do you think Putin thought: "Oh, the west is strong. I'd better not invade Crimea next year?"
    Speaking of allowing evil to flourish, what's your current position on Turkey's occupation of Cyprus and its invasion of parts of Syria to get at the Kurds? I believe that last time you were asked; 'it's very complicated' was your masterful response.
    Well, the history of Cyprus is very complicated (*), and especially if you look at it in relation to self-determination. Or is it simple in your eyes?

    As far as I'm aware, I've not mentioned 'Turkey's invasion of parts of Syria to get at the Kurds' recently, so you've naughtily added that on.

    But before you try to make me out to be some form of Turkish shill, you might want to consider my support of a Kurdish state, opined below and on many previous occasions in the past (a position that is not exactly in line with Erdogan's). My reaction to Turley's invasion of Syria is what it always has been: they should gtfo.

    Now, why won't you answer the question I always ask you, and which you Brave Sir Robin away from? Do you believe the Dutch report into MH17,or are you still swallowing Russia's lines, which you spewed over here at the time?

    (*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cyprus
    (*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Cyprus
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,873
    edited September 25
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
  • MaxPB said:

    If the Labour Party has a problem with our national flag and our Head of State it isn't ready for Government.

    People won't elect a party to govern them that is disgusted by its own country.

    Clearly it doesn't. I wouldn't take a few hard lefties on twitter as representative of Labour post-Corbyn.
    Of course.

    I must say, though, I'm not fooled. There's no doubt in my mind that Starmer secretly shares almost all the prejudices of all North London liberal and finds the monarchy anachronistic and embarrassing and our flag chauvinist and "unprogressive".

    However, he's smart enough to read the tea leaves and ambitious enough know this is electoral kryptonite so he is strategically pushing ahead with whatever he needs to do to win. The most triangular of triangualtors triangles.

    Contrast this with Blair who, although a bit of a weasel, I had no doubt was a man of faith and belief in this country.
    I think that's fair. What you personally believe and what you professionally advocate are not always the same thing. Your beliefs should *shape* what you do, but not dictate. When that happens you because a zealot.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,974
    Dura_Ace said:



    So I ask again: do you think our actions over Syria made Putin think the west was strong, or weak?

    You've gone Full Barty Bobs. Never go Full Barty Bobs.
    ???

    It's a simple enough question. Assad used chemical weapons, and we said tut-tut. But we didn't *do* anything, except let Russia in (and as you said yourself, that 'deal' did not work - because it was effing bogus.
  • There's one area where Starmer and Miliband are *very* different: Russia. Miliband's hideous refusal to react to Syrian use of chemical weapons in 2013 - a refusal done for narrow political reasons, and which caused the US to pull out of of action as well. This happened despite agreeing a deal with Cameron.

    That happened in 2013, and I'd argue it sent Russia a very strong message that the west was too divided to act, even against the use of chemical weapons. That would have been at the very least in the back of Putin's mind when he ordered the Crimean takeover, his Donbass adventures and Salisbury; let alone this year's folly.

    He thought the west was weak and divided; we gave indications that we were weak and divided. He's learnt that whilst we may be weak and divided, we're not weak and divided enough.

    I see no indication that Starmer would be weaker against Russia than Truss (though that may or may not have been the case if he had been in charge in February. That's a key difference with Miliband.

    Many anti-war loons go on about 'eastwards expansion of NATO' or 'Ukrainian Nazis'. It's a shame they cannot look deep into their own souls and look at their own responsibility.

    An inverted pyramid of piffle.

    David Cameron could not convince even his own party to back his Syrian adventurism. Cameron also tried and failed to make a deal with Putin on Syria. The United States did not need British backing had it decided to use force against Syria; America offered to release Britain from any supposed obligation to join its actions against Afghanistan and Iraq; similarly, America did not need Ed Miliband to convince them not to intervene against Syria.

    Away from the Middle East, there were many on the right who condemned either Nato or EU expansion up to Russia's borders, but, like America, perhaps Russia too made its own decisions.

    Let us hope the Ukraine war is no longer a factor by the time the next election rolls round.
    Oh come off it! Your crass denialism is exactly why the left - even the sane left such as yourself - will just allow this sort of sh*t to happen again when they get power.

    Labour and the left - along with others - turned a blind eye to the use of WMD against civilians. The world is not paying the consequences of that.
    You are shifting ground slightly. The situation in Syria was unclear at the time, with almost no-one on the side of the angels. Were we to fight alongside ISIS or Al Qaeda? Earlier Western intervention in Iraq and then in Libya had not ended well. The contention that Miliband caused no action to be taken is preposterous. David Cameron had failed to convince Russia, America or even his own backbenchers that this time it would be different.

    Nor is there any reason to link Syria with Russia invading Ukraine.
    The situation on the ground really was not unclear - that is rewriting history because our lack of support changed the situation on the ground. and the good people/groups pretty much got wiped out. It was also very clear that the Assad regime was using chemical weapons. You think it is unclear because it benefits you to do do so, because you know your side f***ed up.

    We betrayed good people and allowed evil to flourish. We then allowed evil in the form of Putin to get involved, and gave evil the impression we'd do nothing when evil occurred in the future.

    As for your last line. What message do you think Putin got from Miliband stopping the west from intervening against Assad, when Assad used chemical weapons? Do you think Putin thought: "Oh, the west is strong. I'd better not invade Crimea next year?"
    The point is that Miliband did not stop the West intervening against Assad. You are simply drawing a line between two things you dislike. Well, guess what, most people objected to Assad's use of chemical weapons and to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. That does not mean they are linked via Ed Miliband.
    "most people objected to Assad's use of chemical weapons"

    ISTR there were a fair few people in here in *denial* about his use of chemical weapons. Some almost certainly still are. Ditto the invasion of Ukraine - and more when you add in the people who blame us for it (or say we 'poked' them into it.

    I've said how Miliband stopped the west intervening. I suggest you go back and re-read what I wrote.
    Miliband did not stop the West intervening. The United States made its own decision not to intervene. I've already mentioned Obama saying he was proud of this. Does that sound like he was forced into it by Ed Miliband? If you think Britain would have intervened without America, well, it is possible but then Cameron would need to have persuaded all of his own MPs, which he did not. If he had, it is still unlikely we'd have moved without US backing.
    And I've stated how he *did* stop the west intervening. Perhaps you should go back and read it again.

    As I asked before: do you think that Miliband's actions made Putin think the west was divided and weak, or strong?
    OK I've gone back and re-read all your comments on this thread. You seem to be depending on America being influenced by the British vote. As already posted by myself and Dura_Ace, there is strong circumstantial evidence this was not the case.

    David Cameron could not persuade his own MPs to back him. He could not persuade America. Cameron also tried and failed to persuade Russia (and let's not ask what message that sent to Putin). There is no evidence for the causal line you have drawn between Ed Miliband and Ukraine.
    As I said (and was said at the time), America did not want to go into Syria alone. When we did not do anything because of Miliband's actions, they decided they could not.

    And as I responded to DA; the Russian 'deal' was *after* Miliband's actions, a last-gasp by Obama to be seen to be doing something after the vote fell through. It's therefore irrelevant.

    The connection is obvious. You just don't want to see it.

    So I ask again: do you think our actions over Syria made Putin think the west was strong, or weak?
    David Cameron was negotiating with Putin before the deal to which you refer. It did not go anywhere. Evidence from Obama and from Chollet cited by Dura_Ace shows America did not fold to Miliband, or to Britain generally. Its decision not to go to war was quite independent of ours. Your link between Miliband and Ukraine simply does not hold up; it falls at the first hurdle.

    You also seem to have forgotten about Transnistria and South Ossetia which both pre-dated Cameron, Miliband and Syria and which are surely far more relevant to Ukraine.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,974
    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.
  • As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    edited September 25
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
  • TV Wales say the same sample were asked about Mark Drakeford.

    - Doing Well as Labour Leader - 54%
    - Doing Badly - 35%
    - Don't Know - 11%

    Big G must be gutted.

    Good morning

    I will answer this directly

    Labour have been in power in Wales for decades and yet we have some of the worst poverty in the UK, a failing NHS, and education system, plus a proposed tourist tax and reducing all 30mph to 20mph

    We also have a large public sector and as in Scotland, Wales is effectively a socialist fiefdom

    However I do support the Welsh Government’s attack on holiday homes and not everything they do is negative

    The main factor for me is that it is Westminster that dictates the tax rates hence why I support a conservative government over a labour one

    I have just listened to Starmer on BBC and frankly it was embarrassing when he couldn't give any answer on how he would deal with a price cap beyond April 23, and even worse how labour's drive for big increases in wind and solar to make UK energy zero by 2030 when, as Kuenessberg said, that last Friday that just 15% came from wind. To be fair Starmer did say we would need oil and gas for a transition period which comes back to the point Truss is making in investing in North Sea licences for that transition period of maybe 20 years

    We can all say someone has a car crash interview, but maybe addressing the issues head on rather than one liners is a more sensible way of debate
    Good morning Big_G. Your position regarding Drakeford sounds similar to how some friends consider mine regarding Sturgeon. Don't support their party. Would prefer a different leader. Dislike some of the mouth-foaming lunacy. But recognise there is good as well.

    The social reality is that national democracy has got under the skin of the peoples of Wales and Scotland. They want more say locally in what happens in their nation, regardless of what is happening in Westminster. So my proffered solution remains a proper constitutional settlement which allows the UK to fully devolve powers and authority to the nations.

    Final question - when you say you'd prefer a Tory government over a Labour one, does that include now? Are you supporting "bet everything on red" despite being insanely risky and against everythinng your party has ever stood for?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    If Almighty God is good and wise, young HY, and divinely ordains Parliament, he would have set it up with a system of STV in multi-member constituencies right from the beginning. Surely???

    And I see that once again Starmer is set to betray us over PR on behalf of the Labour Party. You just cannot trust Labour.
    PR is a goal for LDs and minor parties mainly, not Labour or the Tories as they like their dominance of Westminster
    Labour last `dominated' Westminster more than 12 years ago.... and its not likely to change for quite a few years, at best a very slim (non-dominant) majority beckons......
    Even in 1997 and 2001 Labour would not have got a majority with PR and many Labour MPs elected then would instead have been LD MPs or Green MPs or even a few Scottish and Welsh and London Tory MPs
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    If Almighty God is good and wise, young HY, and divinely ordains Parliament, he would have set it up with a system of STV in multi-member constituencies right from the beginning. Surely???

    And I see that once again Starmer is set to betray us over PR on behalf of the Labour Party. You just cannot trust Labour.
    PR is a goal for LDs and minor parties mainly, not Labour or the Tories as they like their dominance of Westminster
    We very nearly did get PR, of course, a hundred years ago. It was being introduced by the Liberal Party, which was one of the "big two" at the time, and actually the government of the day. Unfortunately, the project was blown off course by the Great War, and then the rise of Socialism.

    We did, however, manage to set up this system in the Irish Free State, where it remains in force, despite all attempts to abolish it. The Irish are more fortunate than we are.
    Well PR has kept SF out of power, for now
  • Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    I'm not a socialist (in any form) but I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    I don't mind what vision people have for the UK as long as they love it.
    Back in the day I used to have this quaint notion that when I bought big ticket items I should buy British, even though the quality was a bit iffy. Supporting Britain, supporting British workers against the tide seemed the right thing to do. My Tory friends laughed at my folly from the comfort of their German and Japanese cars. British workers are lazy and their product poor they would say. Of course they realised they could claim their redemption by saluting the flag.

    I watched in horror as British manufacturing moved out and the jobs were lost. Why are Brits so unpatriotic I thought? The Police in their BMWs, the ambulance service in their Mercedes trucks, Volvo fire engines and Royal Mail Peugeot vans. This wouldn't happen in France or Germany!

    So then there was nothing British to buy so I have a home full of German white goods and a drive full of German cars. But it's OK, I can salute the Union flag. That makes me a patriot.
    Buying British is impossible. Crap management clashed with communist unions and brought down chunks of heavy industry. Cheaper labour elsewhere usually subsidised further undercut us in electronics and appliances. Clothes stopped being made in Lancashire and went to Bangladeshi sweat shops.

    We could have voted with our feet, and not bought the imports. But supporting the domestic product through the 80s was akin to supporting communism. And once we'd lost the ability to make all these things, it became niche at best. There are excellent British clothing companies - HebTroCo as an example. But they cost ££££.

    We do need to try and rebuild our production industries. Buy British, Build British, Eat British. But until we have something viable for people to buy, forget it. Government needs to lead, and none of them have done any more than make an occasional speech.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,873
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    You said 'all mps swear in by Almighty God'.

    What do you think the word 'all' means?

    You also said 'God also divinely ordains Parliament hence....'

    What do you think the word 'hence' means?

    So the whole sentence was completely wrong and you are trying to argue out of it. [email protected] it isn't that big a mistake and we all make them, just accept it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,476

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    I'm not a socialist (in any form) but I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    I don't mind what vision people have for the UK as long as they love it.
    Back in the day I used to have this quaint notion that when I bought big ticket items I should buy British, even though the quality was a bit iffy. Supporting Britain, supporting British workers, against the tide seemed the right thing to do. My Tory friends laughed at my folly from the comfort of their German and Japanese cars. British workers are lazy and their product poor they would say. Of course they realised they could claim their redemption by saluting the flag.

    I watched in horror as British manufacturing moved out and the jobs were lost. Why are Brits so unpatriotic I thought? The Police in their BMWs, the ambulance service in their Mercedes trucks, Volvo fire engines and Royal Mail Peugeot vans. This wouldn't happen in France or Germany!

    So then there was nothing British to buy so I have a home full of German white goods and a drive full of German cars. But it's OK, I can salute the Union flag. That makes me a patriot.
    The French high performance Police cars I thought were German to be honest
    There was a point when the German police demanded Land Rovers back in the 70s and they were told no, you'll have to wait for the G Wagon.

    Anyway, I thought you were on my side!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,177
    edited September 25
    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    If Almighty God is good and wise, young HY, and divinely ordains Parliament, he would have set it up with a system of STV in multi-member constituencies right from the beginning. Surely???

    And I see that once again Starmer is set to betray us over PR on behalf of the Labour Party. You just cannot trust Labour.
    PR is a goal for LDs and minor parties mainly, not Labour or the Tories as they like their dominance of Westminster
    We very nearly did get PR, of course, a hundred years ago. It was being introduced by the Liberal Party, which was one of the "big two" at the time, and actually the government of the day. Unfortunately, the project was blown off course by the Great War, and then the rise of Socialism.

    We did, however, manage to set up this system in the Irish Free State, where it remains in force, despite all attempts to abolish it. The Irish are more fortunate than we are.
    As I understand it, had Tony Blair had to rely on LibDem support in the 1997 parliament we would've had PR.

    It was the massive majority and opposition from John Prescott which stopped it!



    Edit; sometimes Siri doesn't understand my accent when I dictate!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,177
    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    If Almighty God is good and wise, young HY, and divinely ordains Parliament, he would have set it up with a system of STV in multi-member constituencies right from the beginning. Surely???

    And I see that once again Starmer is set to betray us over PR on behalf of the Labour Party. You just cannot trust Labour.
    PR is a goal for LDs and minor parties mainly, not Labour or the Tories as they like their dominance of Westminster
    We very nearly did get PR, of course, a hundred years ago. It was being introduced by the Liberal Party, which was one of the "big two" at the time, and actually the government of the day. Unfortunately, the project was blown off course by the Great War, and then the rise of Socialism.

    We did, however, manage to set up this system in the Irish Free State, where it remains in force, despite all attempts to abolish it. The Irish are more fortunate than we are.
    Well PR has kept SF out of power, for now
    Last time it was incompetent party organisation on the part of Sinn Fein!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,974

    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,775
    @HYUFD - have you recently decided to spurn the full stop? Is this a trend?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,421

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    I'm not a socialist (in any form) but I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    I don't mind what vision people have for the UK as long as they love it.
    Back in the day I used to have this quaint notion that when I bought big ticket items I should buy British, even though the quality was a bit iffy. Supporting Britain, supporting British workers, against the tide seemed the right thing to do. My Tory friends laughed at my folly from the comfort of their German and Japanese cars. British workers are lazy and their product poor they would say. Of course they realised they could claim their redemption by saluting the flag.

    I watched in horror as British manufacturing moved out and the jobs were lost. Why are Brits so unpatriotic I thought? The Police in their BMWs, the ambulance service in their Mercedes trucks, Volvo fire engines and Royal Mail Peugeot vans. This wouldn't happen in France or Germany!

    So then there was nothing British to buy so I have a home full of German white goods and a drive full of German cars. But it's OK, I can salute the Union flag. That makes me a patriot.
    The French high performance Police cars I thought were German to be honest
    Definitely seen Police National X3s (made in USA) and Skoda Superbs (made in Czechia) on the Autoroute.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,654
    So, what do we think the markets will look like
    Tomorrow?

    You’d have to imagine huge swathes of Tory MPs worried particularly after the poor performances over the weekend
  • As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
    Eliud Kipchoge? Greatest marathon runner of all time?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,974

    There's one area where Starmer and Miliband are *very* different: Russia. Miliband's hideous refusal to react to Syrian use of chemical weapons in 2013 - a refusal done for narrow political reasons, and which caused the US to pull out of of action as well. This happened despite agreeing a deal with Cameron.

    That happened in 2013, and I'd argue it sent Russia a very strong message that the west was too divided to act, even against the use of chemical weapons. That would have been at the very least in the back of Putin's mind when he ordered the Crimean takeover, his Donbass adventures and Salisbury; let alone this year's folly.

    He thought the west was weak and divided; we gave indications that we were weak and divided. He's learnt that whilst we may be weak and divided, we're not weak and divided enough.

    I see no indication that Starmer would be weaker against Russia than Truss (though that may or may not have been the case if he had been in charge in February. That's a key difference with Miliband.

    Many anti-war loons go on about 'eastwards expansion of NATO' or 'Ukrainian Nazis'. It's a shame they cannot look deep into their own souls and look at their own responsibility.

    An inverted pyramid of piffle.

    David Cameron could not convince even his own party to back his Syrian adventurism. Cameron also tried and failed to make a deal with Putin on Syria. The United States did not need British backing had it decided to use force against Syria; America offered to release Britain from any supposed obligation to join its actions against Afghanistan and Iraq; similarly, America did not need Ed Miliband to convince them not to intervene against Syria.

    Away from the Middle East, there were many on the right who condemned either Nato or EU expansion up to Russia's borders, but, like America, perhaps Russia too made its own decisions.

    Let us hope the Ukraine war is no longer a factor by the time the next election rolls round.
    Oh come off it! Your crass denialism is exactly why the left - even the sane left such as yourself - will just allow this sort of sh*t to happen again when they get power.

    Labour and the left - along with others - turned a blind eye to the use of WMD against civilians. The world is not paying the consequences of that.
    You are shifting ground slightly. The situation in Syria was unclear at the time, with almost no-one on the side of the angels. Were we to fight alongside ISIS or Al Qaeda? Earlier Western intervention in Iraq and then in Libya had not ended well. The contention that Miliband caused no action to be taken is preposterous. David Cameron had failed to convince Russia, America or even his own backbenchers that this time it would be different.

    Nor is there any reason to link Syria with Russia invading Ukraine.
    The situation on the ground really was not unclear - that is rewriting history because our lack of support changed the situation on the ground. and the good people/groups pretty much got wiped out. It was also very clear that the Assad regime was using chemical weapons. You think it is unclear because it benefits you to do do so, because you know your side f***ed up.

    We betrayed good people and allowed evil to flourish. We then allowed evil in the form of Putin to get involved, and gave evil the impression we'd do nothing when evil occurred in the future.

    As for your last line. What message do you think Putin got from Miliband stopping the west from intervening against Assad, when Assad used chemical weapons? Do you think Putin thought: "Oh, the west is strong. I'd better not invade Crimea next year?"
    The point is that Miliband did not stop the West intervening against Assad. You are simply drawing a line between two things you dislike. Well, guess what, most people objected to Assad's use of chemical weapons and to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. That does not mean they are linked via Ed Miliband.
    "most people objected to Assad's use of chemical weapons"

    ISTR there were a fair few people in here in *denial* about his use of chemical weapons. Some almost certainly still are. Ditto the invasion of Ukraine - and more when you add in the people who blame us for it (or say we 'poked' them into it.

    I've said how Miliband stopped the west intervening. I suggest you go back and re-read what I wrote.
    Miliband did not stop the West intervening. The United States made its own decision not to intervene. I've already mentioned Obama saying he was proud of this. Does that sound like he was forced into it by Ed Miliband? If you think Britain would have intervened without America, well, it is possible but then Cameron would need to have persuaded all of his own MPs, which he did not. If he had, it is still unlikely we'd have moved without US backing.
    And I've stated how he *did* stop the west intervening. Perhaps you should go back and read it again.

    As I asked before: do you think that Miliband's actions made Putin think the west was divided and weak, or strong?
    OK I've gone back and re-read all your comments on this thread. You seem to be depending on America being influenced by the British vote. As already posted by myself and Dura_Ace, there is strong circumstantial evidence this was not the case.

    David Cameron could not persuade his own MPs to back him. He could not persuade America. Cameron also tried and failed to persuade Russia (and let's not ask what message that sent to Putin). There is no evidence for the causal line you have drawn between Ed Miliband and Ukraine.
    As I said (and was said at the time), America did not want to go into Syria alone. When we did not do anything because of Miliband's actions, they decided they could not.

    And as I responded to DA; the Russian 'deal' was *after* Miliband's actions, a last-gasp by Obama to be seen to be doing something after the vote fell through. It's therefore irrelevant.

    The connection is obvious. You just don't want to see it.

    So I ask again: do you think our actions over Syria made Putin think the west was strong, or weak?
    David Cameron was negotiating with Putin before the deal to which you refer. It did not go anywhere. Evidence from Obama and from Chollet cited by Dura_Ace shows America did not fold to Miliband, or to Britain generally. Its decision not to go to war was quite independent of ours. Your link between Miliband and Ukraine simply does not hold up; it falls at the first hurdle.

    You also seem to have forgotten about Transnistria and South Ossetia which both pre-dated Cameron, Miliband and Syria and which are surely far more relevant to Ukraine.
    Who says I've forgotten about them? Or Litvinenko, for that matter.

    Each time Putin and others probed the west's reaction, and the west did little or nothing. But that does not excuse the fact we did not do anything in response to the use of chemical weapons in Syria, does it?

    Think about that: the use of chemical weapons against civilians.

    I'd also be careful about taking Obama's memoirs at face value, given what's happened since. As DA said, the 'deal' Obama made with Putin did not work - mainly because the whole thing was probably a sham.

    (Note the way Putin did not pull his troops out from Syria once Assad used the weapons he said he'd got rid of.)
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,873
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,859
    edited September 25
    Correction: In the theme of PedanticBetting.com only two post-war LOTOs have achieved 100 seats: Blair and Cameron.

    Attlee was during the War.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,220

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    Clearly a Labour conference set pitched at the redwall
    Rubbish. I can't see a flag of St George anywhere!
    Emily Thornbury will be bringing them in person.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
    How would a lighter work, without lighter eluid?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    edited September 25
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
    So over 75% of MPs do take the religious oath then
  • Correction: In the theme of PedanticBetting.com only two post-war LOTOs have achieved 100 seats: Blair and Cameron.

    Attlee was during the War.

    Corbyn achieved 100 seats.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    I'm not a socialist (in any form) but I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    I don't mind what vision people have for the UK as long as they love it.
    Back in the day I used to have this quaint notion that when I bought big ticket items I should buy British, even though the quality was a bit iffy. Supporting Britain, supporting British workers, against the tide seemed the right thing to do. My Tory friends laughed at my folly from the comfort of their German and Japanese cars. British workers are lazy and their product poor they would say. Of course they realised they could claim their redemption by saluting the flag.

    I watched in horror as British manufacturing moved out and the jobs were lost. Why are Brits so unpatriotic I thought? The Police in their BMWs, the ambulance service in their Mercedes trucks, Volvo fire engines and Royal Mail Peugeot vans. This wouldn't happen in France or Germany!

    So then there was nothing British to buy so I have a home full of German white goods and a drive full of German cars. But it's OK, I can salute the Union flag. That makes me a patriot.
    The French high performance Police cars I thought were German to be honest
    There was a point when the German police demanded Land Rovers back in the 70s and they were told no, you'll have to wait for the G Wagon.

    Anyway, I thought you were on my side!
    G Wagen, mein Herr.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    If Almighty God is good and wise, young HY, and divinely ordains Parliament, he would have set it up with a system of STV in multi-member constituencies right from the beginning. Surely???

    And I see that once again Starmer is set to betray us over PR on behalf of the Labour Party. You just cannot trust Labour.
    PR is a goal for LDs and minor parties mainly, not Labour or the Tories as they like their dominance of Westminster
    We very nearly did get PR, of course, a hundred years ago. It was being introduced by the Liberal Party, which was one of the "big two" at the time, and actually the government of the day. Unfortunately, the project was blown off course by the Great War, and then the rise of Socialism.

    We did, however, manage to set up this system in the Irish Free State, where it remains in force, despite all attempts to abolish it. The Irish are more fortunate than we are.
    Well PR has kept SF out of power, for now
    Last time it was incompetent party organisation on the part of Sinn Fein!
    It was mainly PR, even with a full slate of candidates SF would not have had a majority they may well have done or got close to with FPTP
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,334

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?


    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    If Almighty God is good and wise, young HY, and divinely ordains Parliament, he would have set it up with a system of STV in multi-member constituencies right from the beginning. Surely???

    And I see that once again Starmer is set to betray us over PR on behalf of the Labour Party. You just cannot trust Labour.
    PR is a goal for LDs and minor parties mainly, not Labour or the Tories as they like their dominance of Westminster
    We very nearly did get PR, of course, a hundred years ago. It was being introduced by the Liberal Party, which was one of the "big two" at the time, and actually the government of the day. Unfortunately, the project was blown off course by the Great War, and then the rise of Socialism.

    We did, however, manage to set up this system in the Irish Free State, where it remains in force, despite all attempts to abolish it. The Irish are more fortunate than we are.
    As I understand it, and Tony Blair had to rely on LibDem support in the 1997 parliament we would've had PR.

    It was the massive majority and opposition from John Prescott which stopped it!
    Yes, there is considerable irony in the fact that the tacit understanding between the leaders of the Lib Dems and the Labour Party led to their both doing well in the subsequent election, and leaving Blair defenceless against the dinosaurs like Prescott.

    And then history repeated itself when Cameron did too well in 2015 and was left defenceless against the stupid bastards on his own bac benches.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,974

    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
    Eliud Kipchoge? Greatest marathon runner of all time?
    Ah sorry, no. The little 'un wanted to do the Park Run (dressed as Pheidippides (*), of all things, as it was a fancy dress day), and Mrs J's doing a 10K run.

    I get depressed watching marathons on the TV. Everyone's so much faster than me; I'm a tortoise at running. I quite like watching them in person though, as you get a better impression of the pain everyone's in. ;)

    (*) The runner of the original marathon.
  • TV Wales say the same sample were asked about Mark Drakeford.

    - Doing Well as Labour Leader - 54%
    - Doing Badly - 35%
    - Don't Know - 11%

    Big G must be gutted.

    Good morning

    I will answer this directly

    Labour have been in power in Wales for decades and yet we have some of the worst poverty in the UK, a failing NHS, and education system, plus a proposed tourist tax and reducing all 30mph to 20mph

    We also have a large public sector and as in Scotland, Wales is effectively a socialist fiefdom

    However I do support the Welsh Government’s attack on holiday homes and not everything they do is negative

    The main factor for me is that it is Westminster that dictates the tax rates hence why I support a conservative government over a labour one

    I have just listened to Starmer on BBC and frankly it was embarrassing when he couldn't give any answer on how he would deal with a price cap beyond April 23, and even worse how labour's drive for big increases in wind and solar to make UK energy zero by 2030 when, as Kuenessberg said, that last Friday that just 15% came from wind. To be fair Starmer did say we would need oil and gas for a transition period which comes back to the point Truss is making in investing in North Sea licences for that transition period of maybe 20 years

    We can all say someone has a car crash interview, but maybe addressing the issues head on rather than one liners is a more sensible way of debate
    Good morning Big_G. Your position regarding Drakeford sounds similar to how some friends consider mine regarding Sturgeon. Don't support their party. Would prefer a different leader. Dislike some of the mouth-foaming lunacy. But recognise there is good as well.

    The social reality is that national democracy has got under the skin of the peoples of Wales and Scotland. They want more say locally in what happens in their nation, regardless of what is happening in Westminster. So my proffered solution remains a proper constitutional settlement which allows the UK to fully devolve powers and authority to the nations.

    Final question - when you say you'd prefer a Tory government over a Labour one, does that include now? Are you supporting "bet everything on red" despite being insanely risky and against everythinng your party has ever stood for?
    Thank you and it is true that those of us in North Wales feel far distant from Cardiff, not only in actual travelling time but to an extent in politics. We do see ourselves closer to Cheshire and Lancashire and maybe that is understandable

    In regard to your last question yes I do support Truss's drive to increase growth and it seems there is a lot more to come on deregulation, doctors pensions, child care, and more but to be honest I am uneasy to a certain extent and it is a gamble, but then keeping things as they are is also a gamble

    I read in the telegraph that fund managers from Scotland and New York are seriously considering moving to the City and if it consolidates London as a centre for finance then I am pleased with that

    I also read that Edinburgh financial advisors are seriously worried about Sturgeons 46% (+1% higher than Westminster) tax rate that they are seeking to move to Berwick and travel in every day by train. It brings back memories of the early 1960s when I did travel to work in Edinburgh by train from Berwick every day pulled by those wonderful legendary steam trains

    I obviously hope that it succeeds, but if it does not then the conservatives will be out of office for a very long time
  • Correction: In the theme of PedanticBetting.com only two post-war LOTOs have achieved 100 seats: Blair and Cameron.

    Attlee was during the War.

    Corbyn achieved 100 seats.
    Good joke. 😀
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,177
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
    So over 75% of MPs do take the religious oath then
    In other words, the vast majority do, but a significant minority do not.

    How about that?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,025

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    I'm not a socialist (in any form) but I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    I don't mind what vision people have for the UK as long as they love it.
    Back in the day I used to have this quaint notion that when I bought big ticket items I should buy British, even though the quality was a bit iffy. Supporting Britain, supporting British workers against the tide seemed the right thing to do. My Tory friends laughed at my folly from the comfort of their German and Japanese cars. British workers are lazy and their product poor they would say. Of course they realised they could claim their redemption by saluting the flag.

    I watched in horror as British manufacturing moved out and the jobs were lost. Why are Brits so unpatriotic I thought? The Police in their BMWs, the ambulance service in their Mercedes trucks, Volvo fire engines and Royal Mail Peugeot vans. This wouldn't happen in France or Germany!

    So then there was nothing British to buy so I have a home full of German white goods and a drive full of German cars. But it's OK, I can salute the Union flag. That makes me a patriot.
    Buying British is impossible. Crap management clashed with communist unions and brought down chunks of heavy industry. Cheaper labour elsewhere usually subsidised further undercut us in electronics and appliances. Clothes stopped being made in Lancashire and went to Bangladeshi sweat shops.

    We could have voted with our feet, and not bought the imports. But supporting the domestic product through the 80s was akin to supporting communism. And once we'd lost the ability to make all these things, it became niche at best. There are excellent British clothing companies - HebTroCo as an example. But they cost ££££.

    We do need to try and rebuild our production industries. Buy British, Build British, Eat British. But until we have something viable for people to buy, forget it. Government needs to lead, and none of them have done any more than make an occasional speech.
    "Communist Trades Unions"?

    Even I think that's a bit harsh. There are a few led or dominated by political nutters mainly in the public sector - you can look for the ones signed up to Corbynite and anti-Israel/anti-Jewish causes.

    And there are a good few more where the bosses don't give a hoot for the membership, or how much of the members' money they spaff away (hint: Unite vs Anna Turley).

    But "communist" is a stretch.
  • In other words, the vast majority do, but a significant minority do not.

    How about that?

    Yes HY love you man but you've got this wrong.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,873

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
    So over 75% of MPs do take the religious oath then
    In other words, the vast majority do, but a significant minority do not.

    How about that?
    For crying out loud @hyufd you said 'ALL'.

    It is not 'ALL' is it.

    Will you ever admit you get things wrongs?

    And you said 'ALL' to prove a point which is therefore also wrong.

    Do you not know what 'ALL' means?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,025
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    You said 'all mps swear in by Almighty God'.

    What do you think the word 'all' means?

    You also said 'God also divinely ordains Parliament hence....'

    What do you think the word 'hence' means?

    So the whole sentence was completely wrong and you are trying to argue out of it. [email protected] it isn't that big a mistake and we all make them, just accept it.
    Arguably it's the ones that don't believe in the divine who have the greatest need of "so help me God." :-) .

    (Morning all. Off out now)
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
    Eliud Kipchoge? Greatest marathon runner of all time?
    Ah sorry, no. The little 'un wanted to do the Park Run (dressed as Pheidippides (*), of all things, as it was a fancy dress day), and Mrs J's doing a 10K run.

    I get depressed watching marathons on the TV. Everyone's so much faster than me; I'm a tortoise at running. I quite like watching them in person though, as you get a better impression of the pain everyone's in. ;)

    (*) The runner of the original marathon.
    Little un, you aren't eliding anything from un, which is what the apostrophe implies. As in Kwarteng is a complete 'un'.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,238
    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    Welsh poll apparently, haven't found anything beyond this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/GillibrandPeter/status/1573926820306624514

    NEW: Experts at Cardiff University claim that if an election were held today - it would be close to electoral wipeout for the Conservatives here.

    New poll by YouGov/ITV/Cardiff Uni:
    Conservative - 23% (-3)
    Labour - 46% (+5)
    Liberal Democrats - 5% (-2)
    Plaid Cymru - 15% (-1)
    As I said: Mark Drakeford knows what he’s doing. Anas Sarwar is yet another in an astonishing line of SLab duds.
    TBF he was second - or rather Slab were - at IIRC 20%, now ahead of the ScoTories at 18%, in that poll yesterday. Whether this is because the latter have been increasingly crap lately (and confused about what they support*), I'm not sure, or if it is because Mr S has been doing something good (but not that I have noticed lately).

    *A good thing for Mr Ross as a football referee. But not as the local dept of a UK franchise.
    Tory crapness flattering Scottish Labour mediocrity.

    Compared to a pile of diarrhoea and spew, a bad fart is slightly less off-putting.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
    Eliud Kipchoge? Greatest marathon runner of all time?
    Ah sorry, no. The little 'un wanted to do the Park Run (dressed as Pheidippides (*), of all things, as it was a fancy dress day), and Mrs J's doing a 10K run.

    I get depressed watching marathons on the TV. Everyone's so much faster than me; I'm a tortoise at running. I quite like watching them in person though, as you get a better impression of the pain everyone's in. ;)

    (*) The runner of the original marathon.
    You could record them and play back at 1/2 speed. Which would still have Kipchoge equalling my PB.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,476
    IshmaelZ said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    I'm not a socialist (in any form) but I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    I don't mind what vision people have for the UK as long as they love it.
    Back in the day I used to have this quaint notion that when I bought big ticket items I should buy British, even though the quality was a bit iffy. Supporting Britain, supporting British workers, against the tide seemed the right thing to do. My Tory friends laughed at my folly from the comfort of their German and Japanese cars. British workers are lazy and their product poor they would say. Of course they realised they could claim their redemption by saluting the flag.

    I watched in horror as British manufacturing moved out and the jobs were lost. Why are Brits so unpatriotic I thought? The Police in their BMWs, the ambulance service in their Mercedes trucks, Volvo fire engines and Royal Mail Peugeot vans. This wouldn't happen in France or Germany!

    So then there was nothing British to buy so I have a home full of German white goods and a drive full of German cars. But it's OK, I can salute the Union flag. That makes me a patriot.
    The French high performance Police cars I thought were German to be honest
    There was a point when the German police demanded Land Rovers back in the 70s and they were told no, you'll have to wait for the G Wagon.

    Anyway, I thought you were on my side!
    G Wagen, mein Herr.
    I am a British flag waving patriot. It's not my fault the Germans can't spell wagon.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,873
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
    So over 75% of MPs do take the religious oath then
    In other words, the vast majority do, but a significant minority do not.

    How about that?
    For crying out loud @hyufd you said 'ALL'.

    It is not 'ALL' is it.

    Will you ever admit you get things wrongs?

    And you said 'ALL' to prove a point which is therefore also wrong.

    Do you not know what 'ALL' means?
    Sorry @hyufd. I apologise for getting annoyed at you. You do exasperate me sometimes.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
    Eliud Kipchoge? Greatest marathon runner of all time?
    Ah sorry, no. The little 'un wanted to do the Park Run (dressed as Pheidippides (*), of all things, as it was a fancy dress day), and Mrs J's doing a 10K run.

    I get depressed watching marathons on the TV. Everyone's so much faster than me; I'm a tortoise at running. I quite like watching them in person though, as you get a better impression of the pain everyone's in. ;)

    (*) The runner of the original marathon.
    You could record them and play back at 1/2 speed. Which would still have Kipchoge equalling my PB.
    My next half target is 1:50, amazing that Kipchoge has almost run my even twice in that time
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,238
    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Observer, I must slightly disagree. Yes, Starmer isn't a source of enthusiasm, but given the current Truss economic plan is going down about as well as Varro's cunning idea of attacking Hannibal at Cannae the bar for looking a better alternative than the incumbent government is lowered very substantially.

    Mr. Dickson, what exactly has annoyed them so?

    Conservation groups brand mini-budget an ‘attack on nature’
    - RSPB, Wildlife Trusts and National Trust criticise plans to create 38 ‘investment zones’ across England

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/24/conservation-groups-brand-mini-budget-an-attack-on-nature
    No investment no wealth no consumption no levelling up no improvement in economic circumstances no environmental impact. Is presumably what these groups want.
    Bit unfair. Feeding the blue tits and enjoying a day out at a stately home are not usually considered hallmarks of the revolutionary.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    edited September 25
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
    So over 75% of MPs do take the religious oath then
    In other words, the vast majority do, but a significant minority do not.

    How about that?
    For crying out loud @hyufd you said 'ALL'.

    It is not 'ALL' is it.

    Will you ever admit you get things wrongs?

    And you said 'ALL' to prove a point which is therefore also wrong.

    Do you not know what 'ALL' means?
    It remains the standard oath for the House to swear allegiance to Almighty God, the fact a few MPs might not do the standard oath exactly as set out does not change that
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,974

    IshmaelZ said:

    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
    Eliud Kipchoge? Greatest marathon runner of all time?
    Ah sorry, no. The little 'un wanted to do the Park Run (dressed as Pheidippides (*), of all things, as it was a fancy dress day), and Mrs J's doing a 10K run.

    I get depressed watching marathons on the TV. Everyone's so much faster than me; I'm a tortoise at running. I quite like watching them in person though, as you get a better impression of the pain everyone's in. ;)

    (*) The runner of the original marathon.
    You could record them and play back at 1/2 speed. Which would still have Kipchoge equalling my PB.
    My next half target is 1:50, amazing that Kipchoge has almost run my even twice in that time
    I think my best half time is 2hr15 - as I say, I'm slow. But I only started running when I was about 43 or 44.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    I'm not a socialist (in any form) but I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    I don't mind what vision people have for the UK as long as they love it.
    Back in the day I used to have this quaint notion that when I bought big ticket items I should buy British, even though the quality was a bit iffy. Supporting Britain, supporting British workers, against the tide seemed the right thing to do. My Tory friends laughed at my folly from the comfort of their German and Japanese cars. British workers are lazy and their product poor they would say. Of course they realised they could claim their redemption by saluting the flag.

    I watched in horror as British manufacturing moved out and the jobs were lost. Why are Brits so unpatriotic I thought? The Police in their BMWs, the ambulance service in their Mercedes trucks, Volvo fire engines and Royal Mail Peugeot vans. This wouldn't happen in France or Germany!

    So then there was nothing British to buy so I have a home full of German white goods and a drive full of German cars. But it's OK, I can salute the Union flag. That makes me a patriot.
    The French high performance Police cars I thought were German to be honest
    There was a point when the German police demanded Land Rovers back in the 70s and they were told no, you'll have to wait for the G Wagon.

    Anyway, I thought you were on my side!
    G Wagen, mein Herr.
    I am a British flag waving patriot. It's not my fault the Germans can't spell wagon.
    Shit

    the muthas cost £123,500 OTR. Entry level. They can spell it how they like...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,642
    edited September 25

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Observer, I must slightly disagree. Yes, Starmer isn't a source of enthusiasm, but given the current Truss economic plan is going down about as well as Varro's cunning idea of attacking Hannibal at Cannae the bar for looking a better alternative than the incumbent government is lowered very substantially.

    Mr. Dickson, what exactly has annoyed them so?

    Conservation groups brand mini-budget an ‘attack on nature’
    - RSPB, Wildlife Trusts and National Trust criticise plans to create 38 ‘investment zones’ across England

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/24/conservation-groups-brand-mini-budget-an-attack-on-nature
    No investment no wealth no consumption no levelling up no improvement in economic circumstances no environmental impact. Is presumably what these groups want.
    Bit unfair. Feeding the blue tits and enjoying a day out at a stately home are not usually considered hallmarks of the revolutionary.
    Surely no stately home can claim to be untainted by one historical injustice or another.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,642
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
    So over 75% of MPs do take the religious oath then
    In other words, the vast majority do, but a significant minority do not.

    How about that?
    For crying out loud @hyufd you said 'ALL'.

    It is not 'ALL' is it.

    Will you ever admit you get things wrongs?

    And you said 'ALL' to prove a point which is therefore also wrong.

    Do you not know what 'ALL' means?
    It remains the standard oath for the House to swear allegiance to Almighty God, the fact a few MPs might not do the standard oath exactly as set out does not change that
    It's not a few. It's up to 25%.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
    So over 75% of MPs do take the religious oath then
    In other words, the vast majority do, but a significant minority do not.

    How about that?
    For crying out loud @hyufd you said 'ALL'.

    It is not 'ALL' is it.

    Will you ever admit you get things wrongs?

    And you said 'ALL' to prove a point which is therefore also wrong.

    Do you not know what 'ALL' means?
    It remains the standard oath for the House to swear allegiance to Almighty God, the fact a few MPs might not do the standard oath exactly as set out does not change that
    It's not a few. It's up to 25%.
    25% is a few, even less than the percentage of the UK voters that voted for Corbyn and Hague
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,238
    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    This is at the heart of Labour’s strategic conundrum: the more they ape the English Tories, the more distasteful they become to their target voters in Scotland. Mark Drakeford knows what he’s doing. Anas Sarwar is yet another in an astonishing line of SLab duds.

    Labour have made their ‘Muscular Unionism’ (copyright M Gove) bed. Now they must lie in it. Sweet dreams are profoundly unlikely.
    To beat the SNP in Scotland SLab need Tory and LD tactical votes in seats where they are the main alternative to the SNP, as Ian Murray does so brilliantly in Edinburgh South. They need to unite Unionists behind them, they are not going to win over many if any Nationalists back from the SNP
    Better tell @Casino_Royale , he seems to think that Scottish Labour are on the brink of gaining 15-20 seats from the SNP.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    This is at the heart of Labour’s strategic conundrum: the more they ape the English Tories, the more distasteful they become to their target voters in Scotland. Mark Drakeford knows what he’s doing. Anas Sarwar is yet another in an astonishing line of SLab duds.

    Labour have made their ‘Muscular Unionism’ (copyright M Gove) bed. Now they must lie in it. Sweet dreams are profoundly unlikely.
    To beat the SNP in Scotland SLab need Tory and LD tactical votes in seats where they are the main alternative to the SNP, as Ian Murray does so brilliantly in Edinburgh South. They need to unite Unionists behind them, they are not going to win over many if any Nationalists back from the SNP
    Better tell @Casino_Royale , he seems to think that Scottish Labour are on the brink of gaining 15-20 seats from the SNP.
    If they do it will be with SCon and LD tactical votes in part
  • HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
    So over 75% of MPs do take the religious oath then
    In other words, the vast majority do, but a significant minority do not.

    How about that?
    For crying out loud @hyufd you said 'ALL'.

    It is not 'ALL' is it.

    Will you ever admit you get things wrongs?

    And you said 'ALL' to prove a point which is therefore also wrong.

    Do you not know what 'ALL' means?
    It remains the standard oath for the House to swear allegiance to Almighty God, the fact a few MPs might not do the standard oath exactly as set out does not change that
    It is utterly pointless and hypocritical if an MP swears an allegiance to God if they do not believe in God

    It should be a matter for an individual, and in a tolerant society that should be allowed for and respected
  • IshmaelZ said:

    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
    Eliud Kipchoge? Greatest marathon runner of all time?
    Ah sorry, no. The little 'un wanted to do the Park Run (dressed as Pheidippides (*), of all things, as it was a fancy dress day), and Mrs J's doing a 10K run.

    I get depressed watching marathons on the TV. Everyone's so much faster than me; I'm a tortoise at running. I quite like watching them in person though, as you get a better impression of the pain everyone's in. ;)

    (*) The runner of the original marathon.
    You could record them and play back at 1/2 speed. Which would still have Kipchoge equalling my PB.
    My next half target is 1:50, amazing that Kipchoge has almost run my even twice in that time
    I think my best half time is 2hr15 - as I say, I'm slow. But I only started running when I was about 43 or 44.
    My friend that is rapid, that's about my PB right now!!! We're faster than about 99% of runners, that is how I look at it
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,974
    IshmaelZ said:

    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
    Eliud Kipchoge? Greatest marathon runner of all time?
    Ah sorry, no. The little 'un wanted to do the Park Run (dressed as Pheidippides (*), of all things, as it was a fancy dress day), and Mrs J's doing a 10K run.

    I get depressed watching marathons on the TV. Everyone's so much faster than me; I'm a tortoise at running. I quite like watching them in person though, as you get a better impression of the pain everyone's in. ;)

    (*) The runner of the original marathon.
    You could record them and play back at 1/2 speed. Which would still have Kipchoge equalling my PB.
    Back in the early 1990s I lived on the Isle of Dogs. Friends had a flat near a wall where people would stop to have a pee, and we'd shout stuff at them to (ahem) cheer them along. ;)

    I also remember going down to Island Gardens and see runners using the Greenwich foot tunnel to cut ten or so miles off the route - whilst trying to hide their numbers. Couldn't be done nowadays with the chips.
  • TresTres Posts: 1,347

    TV Wales say the same sample were asked about Mark Drakeford.

    - Doing Well as Labour Leader - 54%
    - Doing Badly - 35%
    - Don't Know - 11%

    Big G must be gutted.

    Good morning

    I will answer this directly

    Labour have been in power in Wales for decades and yet we have some of the worst poverty in the UK, a failing NHS, and education system, plus a proposed tourist tax and reducing all 30mph to 20mph

    We also have a large public sector and as in Scotland, Wales is effectively a socialist fiefdom

    However I do support the Welsh Government’s attack on holiday homes and not everything they do is negative

    The main factor for me is that it is Westminster that dictates the tax rates hence why I support a conservative government over a labour one

    I have just listened to Starmer on BBC and frankly it was embarrassing when he couldn't give any answer on how he would deal with a price cap beyond April 23, and even worse how labour's drive for big increases in wind and solar to make UK energy zero by 2030 when, as Kuenessberg said, that last Friday that just 15% came from wind. To be fair Starmer did say we would need oil and gas for a transition period which comes back to the point Truss is making in investing in North Sea licences for that transition period of maybe 20 years

    We can all say someone has a car crash interview, but maybe addressing the issues head on rather than one liners is a more sensible way of debate
    Good morning Big_G. Your position regarding Drakeford sounds similar to how some friends consider mine regarding Sturgeon. Don't support their party. Would prefer a different leader. Dislike some of the mouth-foaming lunacy. But recognise there is good as well.

    The social reality is that national democracy has got under the skin of the peoples of Wales and Scotland. They want more say locally in what happens in their nation, regardless of what is happening in Westminster. So my proffered solution remains a proper constitutional settlement which allows the UK to fully devolve powers and authority to the nations.

    Final question - when you say you'd prefer a Tory government over a Labour one, does that include now? Are you supporting "bet everything on red" despite being insanely risky and against everythinng your party has ever stood for?
    Thank you and it is true that those of us in North Wales feel far distant from Cardiff, not only in actual travelling time but to an extent in politics. We do see ourselves closer to Cheshire and Lancashire and maybe that is understandable

    In regard to your last question yes I do support Truss's drive to increase growth and it seems there is a lot more to come on deregulation, doctors pensions, child care, and more but to be honest I am uneasy to a certain extent and it is a gamble, but then keeping things as they are is also a gamble

    I read in the telegraph that fund managers from Scotland and New York are seriously considering moving to the City and if it consolidates London as a centre for finance then I am pleased with that

    I also read that Edinburgh financial advisors are seriously worried about Sturgeons 46% (+1% higher than Westminster) tax rate that they are seeking to move to Berwick and travel in every day by train. It brings back memories of the early 1960s when I did travel to work in Edinburgh by train from Berwick every day pulled by those wonderful legendary steam trains

    I obviously hope that it succeeds, but if it does not then the conservatives will be out of office for a very long time
    Why would these 'Edinburgh financial advisors' be worried about it now if they weren't worried about it last week?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,873
    edited September 25
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
    So over 75% of MPs do take the religious oath then
    In other words, the vast majority do, but a significant minority do not.

    How about that?
    For crying out loud @hyufd you said 'ALL'.

    It is not 'ALL' is it.

    Will you ever admit you get things wrongs?

    And you said 'ALL' to prove a point which is therefore also wrong.

    Do you not know what 'ALL' means?
    It remains the standard oath for the House to swear allegiance to Almighty God, the fact a few MPs might not do the standard oath exactly as set out does not change that
    You said 'ALL'.

    You used that 'ALL' to prove a point.

    It isn't 'ALL'. It is a long way from 'ALL'

    Therefore the point you were trying to prove remains unproved.

    Do you understand the logical flow of that?

    It makes not one iota that the majority do, all that matters is the statement that depended upon the 'ALL' now fails.

    All that was required was that one MP didn't take the oath for that statement to fail.

    PS please ignore my previous rant, for which I have apologised.
  • TresTres Posts: 1,347
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
    So over 75% of MPs do take the religious oath then
    In other words, the vast majority do, but a significant minority do not.

    How about that?
    For crying out loud @hyufd you said 'ALL'.

    It is not 'ALL' is it.

    Will you ever admit you get things wrongs?

    And you said 'ALL' to prove a point which is therefore also wrong.

    Do you not know what 'ALL' means?
    It remains the standard oath for the House to swear allegiance to Almighty God, the fact a few MPs might not do the standard oath exactly as set out does not change that
    stop othering the non-religious you glorious dullard
  • IshmaelZ said:

    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
    Eliud Kipchoge? Greatest marathon runner of all time?
    Ah sorry, no. The little 'un wanted to do the Park Run (dressed as Pheidippides (*), of all things, as it was a fancy dress day), and Mrs J's doing a 10K run.

    I get depressed watching marathons on the TV. Everyone's so much faster than me; I'm a tortoise at running. I quite like watching them in person though, as you get a better impression of the pain everyone's in. ;)

    (*) The runner of the original marathon.
    You could record them and play back at 1/2 speed. Which would still have Kipchoge equalling my PB.
    Back in the early 1990s I lived on the Isle of Dogs. Friends had a flat near a wall where people would stop to have a pee, and we'd shout stuff at them to (ahem) cheer them along. ;)

    I also remember going down to Island Gardens and see runners using the Greenwich foot tunnel to cut ten or so miles off the route - whilst trying to hide their numbers. Couldn't be done nowadays with the chips.
    I guess they are getting smaller
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,238
    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    This is at the heart of Labour’s strategic conundrum: the more they ape the English Tories, the more distasteful they become to their target voters in Scotland. Mark Drakeford knows what he’s doing. Anas Sarwar is yet another in an astonishing line of SLab duds.

    Labour have made their ‘Muscular Unionism’ (copyright M Gove) bed. Now they must lie in it. Sweet dreams are profoundly unlikely.
    To beat the SNP in Scotland SLab need Tory and LD tactical votes in seats where they are the main alternative to the SNP, as Ian Murray does so brilliantly in Edinburgh South. They need to unite Unionists behind them, they are not going to win over many if any Nationalists back from the SNP
    Just how many Lib Dem and Tory tactical votes do you think are available for Labour in places like Glasgow East and Coatbridge & Bellshill?

    Arithmetic is the essential bedrock of electoral success. You just got an F.
  • Tres said:

    TV Wales say the same sample were asked about Mark Drakeford.

    - Doing Well as Labour Leader - 54%
    - Doing Badly - 35%
    - Don't Know - 11%

    Big G must be gutted.

    Good morning

    I will answer this directly

    Labour have been in power in Wales for decades and yet we have some of the worst poverty in the UK, a failing NHS, and education system, plus a proposed tourist tax and reducing all 30mph to 20mph

    We also have a large public sector and as in Scotland, Wales is effectively a socialist fiefdom

    However I do support the Welsh Government’s attack on holiday homes and not everything they do is negative

    The main factor for me is that it is Westminster that dictates the tax rates hence why I support a conservative government over a labour one

    I have just listened to Starmer on BBC and frankly it was embarrassing when he couldn't give any answer on how he would deal with a price cap beyond April 23, and even worse how labour's drive for big increases in wind and solar to make UK energy zero by 2030 when, as Kuenessberg said, that last Friday that just 15% came from wind. To be fair Starmer did say we would need oil and gas for a transition period which comes back to the point Truss is making in investing in North Sea licences for that transition period of maybe 20 years

    We can all say someone has a car crash interview, but maybe addressing the issues head on rather than one liners is a more sensible way of debate
    Good morning Big_G. Your position regarding Drakeford sounds similar to how some friends consider mine regarding Sturgeon. Don't support their party. Would prefer a different leader. Dislike some of the mouth-foaming lunacy. But recognise there is good as well.

    The social reality is that national democracy has got under the skin of the peoples of Wales and Scotland. They want more say locally in what happens in their nation, regardless of what is happening in Westminster. So my proffered solution remains a proper constitutional settlement which allows the UK to fully devolve powers and authority to the nations.

    Final question - when you say you'd prefer a Tory government over a Labour one, does that include now? Are you supporting "bet everything on red" despite being insanely risky and against everythinng your party has ever stood for?
    Thank you and it is true that those of us in North Wales feel far distant from Cardiff, not only in actual travelling time but to an extent in politics. We do see ourselves closer to Cheshire and Lancashire and maybe that is understandable

    In regard to your last question yes I do support Truss's drive to increase growth and it seems there is a lot more to come on deregulation, doctors pensions, child care, and more but to be honest I am uneasy to a certain extent and it is a gamble, but then keeping things as they are is also a gamble

    I read in the telegraph that fund managers from Scotland and New York are seriously considering moving to the City and if it consolidates London as a centre for finance then I am pleased with that

    I also read that Edinburgh financial advisors are seriously worried about Sturgeons 46% (+1% higher than Westminster) tax rate that they are seeking to move to Berwick and travel in every day by train. It brings back memories of the early 1960s when I did travel to work in Edinburgh by train from Berwick every day pulled by those wonderful legendary steam trains

    I obviously hope that it succeeds, but if it does not then the conservatives will be out of office for a very long time
    Why would these 'Edinburgh financial advisors' be worried about it now if they weren't worried about it last week?
    Because on Friday Kwarteng abolished the 45% tax rate while Sturgeon is at present retaining the 46% rate

    Pay an extra 6% to work in Edinburgh when you are less than an hour from Berwick seems a sensible move and a lovely part of the country to live in
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,974

    IshmaelZ said:

    As an aside, we just went to a local Junior Park Run. There was a little celebration on, and the organisers had a cake with some candles.

    They asked if anyone had any matches or a lighter to light the candle. Of the 40 or 50 adults there, none had.

    Even considering this was a group who took their kids to a run, how times change.

    Did you not watch Eluid????
    Eluid?
    Eliud Kipchoge? Greatest marathon runner of all time?
    Ah sorry, no. The little 'un wanted to do the Park Run (dressed as Pheidippides (*), of all things, as it was a fancy dress day), and Mrs J's doing a 10K run.

    I get depressed watching marathons on the TV. Everyone's so much faster than me; I'm a tortoise at running. I quite like watching them in person though, as you get a better impression of the pain everyone's in. ;)

    (*) The runner of the original marathon.
    You could record them and play back at 1/2 speed. Which would still have Kipchoge equalling my PB.
    My next half target is 1:50, amazing that Kipchoge has almost run my even twice in that time
    I think my best half time is 2hr15 - as I say, I'm slow. But I only started running when I was about 43 or 44.
    My friend that is rapid, that's about my PB right now!!! We're faster than about 99% of runners, that is how I look at it
    Thanks, that makes me feel better. ;)

    I'd like to do a marathon in 4hrs 30m. I've only ever done one (on Jan 1st) and got 4hr49m. I was on for 4hr30m but hit a wall about 21 miles in running up Madingley Hill.

    I'm a bit concerned my half pace is about the same as my full pace; I'd expect to be a little faster at the half. Also, I think people always run faster in an official event - which I don't do.

    My neighbour runs 10k in 40 minutes. Then again, he's 15 years younger than me...
  • HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?




    I don't see any contradiction between celebrating the life of the late Queen and singing the Red Flag. A democratic socialist constitutional monarchy is what we should be aiming for. And people do really miss her. I was at a party in a local pub last night and the pub had a whole wall given over to a celebration of her life. It made me go a bit tearful!
    According to twitter Starmer has ordered conference to all join in singing GSTK (standing presumably) which I find a bit more off putting than the mawkish tacky stuff tbh. However as I say that is according to twitter..
    I am an atheist monarchist. It is the "God" bit I object to, not the "King" bit.
    Charles is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and takes an oath to protect the security of the Church of Scotland, very much God should be saving him.

    Though personally I would just have GSTK as the royal anthem now the Queen has passed away, played at any event the monarch is in attendance in the UK or in the Commonwealth realms.

    England and the UK should get their own anthems, probably Jerusalem as at the Commonwealth Games and Land of Hope and Glory

    Should he have saved Ed VIII, or only temporarily? Should he have propped up G VI a bit longer?
    He saves whoever is monarch for as long as they are monarch as he divinely ordains
    So what would your position have been on Edward VIII? Since he was divinely ordained as king, should he have married Wallis Simpson and told the government to do one? Or had God turned His face away from him?
    He is divinely ordained as long as he is King, Parliament decided he should abdicate and his brother become King, at which point the divine ordination switched to George VIth
    So Parliament , like Maradona, is the hand of God?
    God also divinely ordains Parliament, hence all MPs swear in by Almighty God
    No they don't. There is no requirement to swear in by Almighty God at all and many don't.
    The standard MPs oath is 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'

    The fact a few non religious MPs may take a slightly different one does not change the fact that is the standard oath
    Oh and just to correct the 'just a few non religious MPs'. Neither Keir Starmer nor Penny Mourdant took the religious oath this time and in 2019 150 MPs also failed to take the religious oath so it is not just 'a few', it is fairly mainstream.
    So over 75% of MPs do take the religious oath then
    In other words, the vast majority do, but a significant minority do not.

    How about that?
    For crying out loud @hyufd you said 'ALL'.

    It is not 'ALL' is it.

    Will you ever admit you get things wrongs?

    And you said 'ALL' to prove a point which is therefore also wrong.

    Do you not know what 'ALL' means?
    It remains the standard oath for the House to swear allegiance to Almighty God, the fact a few MPs might not do the standard oath exactly as set out does not change that
    It's not a few. It's up to 25%.
    25% is a few, even less than the percentage of the UK voters that voted for Corbyn and Hague
    But more than for the SCons last time out.
    And SLab.
    And the SLDs.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,035
    If I had to take an oath to support King Charles and all his heirs, even King Andrew if necessary, I'd go with a religious oath because I don't think there is a god to punish me for lying.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,868

    Foxy said:

    Labour Party 2022: Patriot Harder.
    Will the Red Flag be making an appearance?


    Life moves fast. The mournfest is over, and using the late Queen a bit distasteful.

    On the other hand the graph in the header shows what a patriotic but dull and uncharismatic London lawyer can do. 1945 was far and away the outstanding GE in that graph.

    By the time of the coronation, folk are going to be sick to the back teeth of it. They’d be wise to get it over with quickly. Most European monarchies abolished coronation ceremonies long ago. With very good reason. Mourning the loss of a venerable old lady is one thing, sticking people’s noses in it with ostentatious waste of taxpayers’ cash is quite another.
    What you mean is, that by the time of the coronation a small but vocal minority of republicans and Scottish nationalists will be sick to the back teeth of ‘it’.
This discussion has been closed.