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Starmer takes a 15% best PM lead over Truss – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 15 in General
imageStarmer takes a 15% best PM lead over Truss – politicalbetting.com

As can be seen from the Ipsos chart Starmer has a net 13%+ rating (40% positive less 27% negative )on this measure from Ipsos in a poll carried out entirely after Truss became PM. She on the other hand is on a net minus 2% so the gap between them is fifteen percentage points.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 8,447
    edited September 7
    First - but hey that's dull
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    I did like this comment on the Cabinet

    In a few centuries, President of COP26 will become one of these sinecures, like Lord Privy Seal and Captain of the Honourable Gentlemen-at-Arms, whose original purpose has been long forgotten but which remain permanent features of the political landscape.

    https://twitter.com/yuanyi_z/status/1567247433201074177?cxt=HHwWgoC-sZTP_b8rAAAA
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,631
    kle4 said:

    I did like this comment on the Cabinet

    In a few centuries, President of COP26 will become one of these sinecures, like Lord Privy Seal and Captain of the Honourable Gentlemen-at-Arms, whose original purpose has been long forgotten but which remain permanent features of the political landscape.

    https://twitter.com/yuanyi_z/status/1567247433201074177?cxt=HHwWgoC-sZTP_b8rAAAA

    It will actually blow everyone's mind when they realise this country has a Steward.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,508
    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Responses to PMQ’s never cease to be a prime example of confirmation bias.

    Well, not in my case, at least. I think her agenda is mad but found her directness to be refreshing.
    Nor in my case, I’m just strimming down the PB spin that’s bushing up the last few weeks.

    The latest is we were assured we would hear detail of Liz Truss government handouts to households and business this week, but Monday we didn’t, Tuesday we didn’t, and nor will we on Thursday now government have decided on a statement with no proper debate on the details.
    What? It says General debate - UK energy costs here.
    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Responses to PMQ’s never cease to be a prime example of confirmation bias.

    Well, not in my case, at least. I think her agenda is mad but found her directness to be refreshing.
    Nor in my case, I’m just strimming down the PB spin that’s bushing up the last few weeks.

    The latest is we were assured we would hear detail of Liz Truss government handouts to households and business this week, but Monday we didn’t, Tuesday we didn’t, and nor will we on Thursday now government have decided on a statement with no proper debate on the details.
    What? It says General debate - UK energy costs here.
    Which means no questions. Truss gets to stand up make an announcement then sit down again.
    And can go home if she wants to.
    Won't have to explain the details.
    So at what point will the Tory Party have a crisis plan for households and businesses they can explain and defend all the details of in a parliamentary debate? Will they have this before the recess and party conferences?
    Debate means no questions?
    To compel sight of the plan and answers to questions would be a ministerial statement rather than just general debate.

    It’s explicitly clear from the avoidance of ministerial statement, they don’t have a plan with details they can share with MPs and media and field questions on, so my question to PB is a fair one. at what point will the Tory Party have a crisis plan for households and businesses they can explain and defend all the details of in a parliamentary debate? Will they have this before the recess and party conferences?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 19,944
    "More than two thirds of new cabinet attended private schools"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-62812442
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    Based on those saying Starmer or Truss are doing a good job you would expect a Labour lead of about 40% to 33% in the first polls since Truss has become PM.

    However if Truss' plans to freeze energy bills later this month go down well that could soon be cut
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,148
    Truss needs to do two things regarding energy costs to gain support. As well as keeping the cap at current levels, she needs to impose a windfall tax on energy suppliers. The public see the excess profits being made and don’t understand why the energy companies should reap the benefit. It she does both of these, she could receive a significant bounce.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I did like this comment on the Cabinet

    In a few centuries, President of COP26 will become one of these sinecures, like Lord Privy Seal and Captain of the Honourable Gentlemen-at-Arms, whose original purpose has been long forgotten but which remain permanent features of the political landscape.

    https://twitter.com/yuanyi_z/status/1567247433201074177?cxt=HHwWgoC-sZTP_b8rAAAA

    It will actually blow everyone's mind when they realise this country has a Steward.
    This is why it is important not to update archaic customs unless there's a genuine need to do so, it adds character and provides opportunity to laugh at our social betters.

    I mean, take the Lady Usher of the Black Rod. The official duties are apparently controlling access to and maintaining order within the House of Lords and its precincts. How boring to drop a silly title and ceremonial stuff for someone like the Director of Ingress and Egress or whatever.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 46,935
    I'm waiting for Leon to troll you all with the picture of the Hawaiian pizza he's had delivered for dinner...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,562

    I'm waiting for Leon to troll you all with the picture of the Hawaiian pizza he's had delivered for dinner...

    The last 25 minutes of the last thread were amongst my most enjoyable on this site in all the time I’ve been here
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    Andy_JS said:

    "More than two thirds of new cabinet attended private schools"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-62812442

    Keir, Keir, theyve countered our diversity attack line with an absolute shed load of BAMEs and your equalities minister has quit.
    Dust off the 80s class warfare plans and activate Angie. We are at defcon flat cap 'n whippet.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 46,935
    "Kelly Tolhurst has been made an education minister"

    O.....kay........
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    Andy_JS said:

    "More than two thirds of new cabinet attended private schools"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-62812442

    More privately educated than Boris, May and Cameron's Cabinets then, even if Truss went to a comprehensive
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,508
    On topic - but what is this principle you say good for her to defend? That her government has no intention of fairness through taxation, no intention of a country all in tough times together?

    How can any party leader have a good day in parliament, when they have blatantly nailed themselves to that position?
  • Truss needs to do two things regarding energy costs to gain support. As well as keeping the cap at current levels, she needs to impose a windfall tax on energy suppliers. The public see the excess profits being made and don’t understand why the energy companies should reap the benefit. It she does both of these, she could receive a significant bounce.

    Rather than a windfall tax, I'd prefer a public commitment by the companies to invest the same sum in key UK infrastructure to safeguard energy security.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,508

    Truss needs to do two things regarding energy costs to gain support. As well as keeping the cap at current levels, she needs to impose a windfall tax on energy suppliers. The public see the excess profits being made and don’t understand why the energy companies should reap the benefit. It she does both of these, she could receive a significant bounce.

    no wish to be rude, but you have clearly missed the main take out from today. Truss now has zero, zilch chance of a policy retreat and extending the windfall tax. Her credibility will be in tatters. Even if it’s exactly what massive numbers of votes want to see, in the round the shredding of her credibility will lower poll ratings not enhance them at all.
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,607
    A reasonable test of current electoral opinion tomorrow with 5 local by-elections, The Conservatives are defending 4 (Arun, Cannock Chase, Lancaster, and West Sussex) with an Ind defence in Hartlepool.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    "The upshot of all this? Labour will surely win the next election."

    Toynbee - Guardian.

    Hmmm....
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,634

    Truss needs to do two things regarding energy costs to gain support. As well as keeping the cap at current levels, she needs to impose a windfall tax on energy suppliers. The public see the excess profits being made and don’t understand why the energy companies should reap the benefit. It she does both of these, she could receive a significant bounce.

    Rather than a windfall tax, I'd prefer a public commitment by the companies to invest the same sum in key UK infrastructure to safeguard energy security.
    I agree. When folk discuss “profits” they seem to read it as a synonym for “dividends”.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,962
    Sweden votes in four days - the latest Novus poll has the centre-left bloc still narrowly ahead on 50.1% to the centre-right on 48.6% (Sweden Democrats 20.6%, Moderates 17.3%).
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,551
    edited September 7

    Truss needs to do two things regarding energy costs to gain support. As well as keeping the cap at current levels, she needs to impose a windfall tax on energy suppliers. The public see the excess profits being made and don’t understand why the energy companies should reap the benefit. It she does both of these, she could receive a significant bounce.

    I can’t see her imposing a windfall tax now as it would make her look very weak . Perhaps she’s got something else lined up because the public aren’t in the mood to be helping out the energy companies , the mood is ugly out there and the public want their pound of flesh . To add to the national debt to protect their profits looks like it would be an early mistake from Truss.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    edited September 7

    Truss needs to do two things regarding energy costs to gain support. As well as keeping the cap at current levels, she needs to impose a windfall tax on energy suppliers. The public see the excess profits being made and don’t understand why the energy companies should reap the benefit. It she does both of these, she could receive a significant bounce.

    Truss won't, she make clear today ideologically she is very much a free market liberal Thatcherite PM when Starmer said she should impose a windfall tax on energy companies to fund a cap on costs for consumers
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,634
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I haven't watched PMQs (even the snippets on the news). I suspect, as others have said, the initial civility won't last and we'll be back to the usual slanging match.

    I'd have thought your first PMQs would be the easiest for any Prime Minister as you have the advantages of time and novelty. Starmer will no doubt have learned plenty from the initial skirmishes and we'll see how his approach varies from that he came to apply to Johnson in the coming weeks.

    So, on to the great Energy Price Freeze - any hope I had the Truss administration might have been worth supporting is immediately blown apart by this piece of stupidity in extremis.

    Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.

    It is short-termist, a panicked solution predicated on 3-4 months of a zombie Government which did nothing and prepared for nothing. Ideologically, even a windfall tax on the energy companies isn't on the table so they will make grotesque profits and pay their CEOs grotesque salaries which will regularly be pointed out.

    There's little or no incentive to use less gas or electricity - why bother? The Government's going to pay the bill - more accurately, our children and grandchildren will end up paying.

    It's simple - there's no time or thought to see if those who can afford to pay the increased energy bills could actually do so - the billionaire in his mansion, the poor man at his gate - all will be treated the same. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it.

    To add to this legacy, we'll have Ben Wallace taking more money for Defence (you do know there's a war on?) and Truss angling for her tax cut. It's obvious the public sector is going to be looking at some very tough decisions this year complicated further by the cost of the changes to the social care legislation.

    Yup. I have a feeling the Government returned in 2029, of which ever flavour, is not going to have much fun. Labour won’t if it wins in 2024 either.

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,323

    "The upshot of all this? Labour will surely win the next election."

    Toynbee - Guardian.

    Hmmm....

    Commentators gonna commentate.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,562
    Anyway. Enough trolling of the less intelligent PBers like @foxy and @BartholomewRoberts and @DougSeal and @kle

    Just enjoying the twilight now. The delicate dark blue light over the trees. The swallows that whirl in the dusty, cooling light, scented with the first fruits of autumn. The sense of summer handing the baton to the poetics of the Fall




  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    edited September 7
    stodge said:

    Sweden votes in four days - the latest Novus poll has the centre-left bloc still narrowly ahead on 50.1% to the centre-right on 48.6% (Sweden Democrats 20.6%, Moderates 17.3%).

    Looks like another Social Democrat minority government then, though needing the support of the Centre Party who have switched from the centre right block. The biggest gainers though still likely to be the Sweden Democrats
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    Leon said:

    Anyway. Enough trolling of the less intelligent PBers like @foxy and @BartholomewRoberts and @DougSeal and @kle

    Just enjoying the twilight now. The delicate dark blue light over the trees. The swallows that whirl in the dusty, cooling light, scented with the first fruits of autumn. The sense of summer handing the baton to the poetics of the Fall




    Thats me third left front row!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,913
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I did like this comment on the Cabinet

    In a few centuries, President of COP26 will become one of these sinecures, like Lord Privy Seal and Captain of the Honourable Gentlemen-at-Arms, whose original purpose has been long forgotten but which remain permanent features of the political landscape.

    https://twitter.com/yuanyi_z/status/1567247433201074177?cxt=HHwWgoC-sZTP_b8rAAAA

    It will actually blow everyone's mind when they realise this country has a Steward.
    Which country? I can think of at least two Stewards.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,962
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Sweden votes in four days - the latest Novus poll has the centre-left bloc still narrowly ahead on 50.1% to the centre-right on 48.6% (Sweden Democrats 20.6%, Moderates 17.3%).

    Looks like another Social Democrat minority government then, though needing the support of the Centre Party who have switched from the centre right block. The biggest gainers though still likely to be the Sweden Democrats
    Oddly enough, for all the campaigning, very little change from last time. Sweden Democrats up 3, Moderates down two and a half, Greens up one and a half, everyone else within a point of their 2018 result.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,111
    Carnyx said:

    Which country? I can think of at least two Stewards.

    And a Bar?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,634

    Leon said:

    Anyway. Enough trolling of the less intelligent PBers like @foxy and @BartholomewRoberts and @DougSeal and @kle

    Just enjoying the twilight now. The delicate dark blue light over the trees. The swallows that whirl in the dusty, cooling light, scented with the first fruits of autumn. The sense of summer handing the baton to the poetics of the Fall




    Thats me third left front row!
    Don’t joke about the war. My grandad died in the war.

    He fell out of his watchtower at Auschwitz.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,508
    edited September 7
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I haven't watched PMQs (even the snippets on the news). I suspect, as others have said, the initial civility won't last and we'll be back to the usual slanging match.

    I'd have thought your first PMQs would be the easiest for any Prime Minister as you have the advantages of time and novelty. Starmer will no doubt have learned plenty from the initial skirmishes and we'll see how his approach varies from that he came to apply to Johnson in the coming weeks.

    So, on to the great Energy Price Freeze - any hope I had the Truss administration might have been worth supporting is immediately blown apart by this piece of stupidity in extremis.

    Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.

    It is short-termist, a panicked solution predicated on 3-4 months of a zombie Government which did nothing and prepared for nothing. Ideologically, even a windfall tax on the energy companies isn't on the table so they will make grotesque profits and pay their CEOs grotesque salaries which will regularly be pointed out.

    There's little or no incentive to use less gas or electricity - why bother? The Government's going to pay the bill - more accurately, our children and grandchildren will end up paying.

    It's simple - there's no time or thought to see if those who can afford to pay the increased energy bills could actually do so - the billionaire in his mansion, the poor man at his gate - all will be treated the same. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it.

    To add to this legacy, we'll have Ben Wallace taking more money for Defence (you do know there's a war on?) and Truss angling for her tax cut. It's obvious the public sector is going to be looking at some very tough decisions this year complicated further by the cost of the changes to the social care legislation.

    “Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.”

    I think the irony is lost on you actually, you do need to watch PMQs.

    The irony not just of a politician presiding over the biggest tax take since the war, who has been in government the last 10 years, ticking off the opposition for a windfall tax proposal, but her own solution to the crisis now means working family’s paying the £200B back in TAX and on BILLS for decades.

    I was left open mouthed. The irony is just INSANE.

    Yet everyone parrots, didn’t she do well, what a great day she had.

    It was surreal. She was like some Spike Milligan sketch - Maggie Thatcher in a Dalek.

    “I. Am. A. Dalek. Thatcher. You - will - be - disgraced.”
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,547

    "The upshot of all this? Labour will surely win the next election."

    Toynbee - Guardian.

    Hmmm....

    It's difficult to imagine a situation where the next election is greater guesswork than right now. For 'most seats' the odds are as close to evens as makes little difference.

  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 877
    I'm suprised Leon hasn't shown you all a picture of one of his customers. There was a picture of one in the New York Times, last week. Though I must say it didn't look particularly impressive, and not at all posh.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,962
    HYUFD said:

    Truss needs to do two things regarding energy costs to gain support. As well as keeping the cap at current levels, she needs to impose a windfall tax on energy suppliers. The public see the excess profits being made and don’t understand why the energy companies should reap the benefit. It she does both of these, she could receive a significant bounce.

    Truss won't, she make clear today ideologically she is very much a free market liberal Thatcherite PM when Starmer said she should impose a windfall tax on energy companies to fund a cap on costs for consumers
    I presume she thinks somehow the "Magic Growth Fairy" will bestow its munificence upon us and the increase in debt interest payments and the debasement of our currency can all somehow be wished away by tax cuts.

    I'm not entirely convinced - Margaret Thatcher has North Sea Oil receipts and later privatisation receipts.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    edited September 7
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Sweden votes in four days - the latest Novus poll has the centre-left bloc still narrowly ahead on 50.1% to the centre-right on 48.6% (Sweden Democrats 20.6%, Moderates 17.3%).

    Looks like another Social Democrat minority government then, though needing the support of the Centre Party who have switched from the centre right block. The biggest gainers though still likely to be the Sweden Democrats
    Oddly enough, for all the campaigning, very little change from last time. Sweden Democrats up 3, Moderates down two and a half, Greens up one and a half, everyone else within a point of their 2018 result.
    Sweden Democrats overtake the Moderates as the main opposition party of the right looks like the biggest change.

    Sweden then follows France and Italy and Poland with the main centre right party overtaken by a party of the populist Nationalist right
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,913
    edited September 7
    Scott_xP said:

    Carnyx said:

    Which country? I can think of at least two Stewards.

    And a Bar?
    Well, we've got the official bastards (e.g. Chas II's) and the ones we don't know about officially.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,913
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss needs to do two things regarding energy costs to gain support. As well as keeping the cap at current levels, she needs to impose a windfall tax on energy suppliers. The public see the excess profits being made and don’t understand why the energy companies should reap the benefit. It she does both of these, she could receive a significant bounce.

    Truss won't, she make clear today ideologically she is very much a free market liberal Thatcherite PM when Starmer said she should impose a windfall tax on energy companies to fund a cap on costs for consumers
    I presume she thinks somehow the "Magic Growth Fairy" will bestow its munificence upon us and the increase in debt interest payments and the debasement of our currency can all somehow be wished away by tax cuts.

    I'm not entirely convinced - Margaret Thatcher has North Sea Oil receipts and later privatisation receipts.
    And gas, too.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Steve Baker has been made a minister. NI.

  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,634
    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss needs to do two things regarding energy costs to gain support. As well as keeping the cap at current levels, she needs to impose a windfall tax on energy suppliers. The public see the excess profits being made and don’t understand why the energy companies should reap the benefit. It she does both of these, she could receive a significant bounce.

    Truss won't, she make clear today ideologically she is very much a free market liberal Thatcherite PM when Starmer said she should impose a windfall tax on energy companies to fund a cap on costs for consumers
    I presume she thinks somehow the "Magic Growth Fairy" will bestow its munificence upon us and the increase in debt interest payments and the debasement of our currency can all somehow be wished away by tax cuts.

    I'm not entirely convinced - Margaret Thatcher has North Sea Oil receipts and later privatisation receipts.
    And gas, too.
    Perhaps the other half of tomorrow’s policy announcement is “drill baby, drill”?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,634

    Steve Baker has been made a minister. NI.

    Just the sort of calm head we need to negotiate out our differences with the Irish.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I haven't watched PMQs (even the snippets on the news). I suspect, as others have said, the initial civility won't last and we'll be back to the usual slanging match.

    I'd have thought your first PMQs would be the easiest for any Prime Minister as you have the advantages of time and novelty. Starmer will no doubt have learned plenty from the initial skirmishes and we'll see how his approach varies from that he came to apply to Johnson in the coming weeks.

    So, on to the great Energy Price Freeze - any hope I had the Truss administration might have been worth supporting is immediately blown apart by this piece of stupidity in extremis.

    Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.

    It is short-termist, a panicked solution predicated on 3-4 months of a zombie Government which did nothing and prepared for nothing. Ideologically, even a windfall tax on the energy companies isn't on the table so they will make grotesque profits and pay their CEOs grotesque salaries which will regularly be pointed out.

    There's little or no incentive to use less gas or electricity - why bother? The Government's going to pay the bill - more accurately, our children and grandchildren will end up paying.

    It's simple - there's no time or thought to see if those who can afford to pay the increased energy bills could actually do so - the billionaire in his mansion, the poor man at his gate - all will be treated the same. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it.

    To add to this legacy, we'll have Ben Wallace taking more money for Defence (you do know there's a war on?) and Truss angling for her tax cut. It's obvious the public sector is going to be looking at some very tough decisions this year complicated further by the cost of the changes to the social care legislation.

    “Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.”

    I think the irony is lost on you actually, you do need to watch PMQs.

    The irony not just of a politician presiding over the biggest tax take since the war, who has been in government the last 10 years, ticking off the opposition for a windfall tax proposal, but her own solution to the crisis now means working family’s paying the £200B back in TAX and on BILLS for decades.

    I was left open mouthed. The irony is just INSANE.

    Yet everyone parrots, didn’t she do well, what a great day she had.

    It was surreal. She was like some Spike Milligan sketch - Maggie Thatcher in a Dalek.

    “I. Am. A. Dalek. Thatcher. You - will - be - disgraced.”
    The alternative is a million freeze to death this winter? The ridiculous windfall tax extension will raise, according to Labour perhaps 8 billion quid. Enough for a couple hundred in handouts to each family or a monthish of cap freeze. The fact they are obsessed with it suggests they have nothing to offer as a solution to the massive shit we are in. Its a massive, massive distraction
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,962


    “Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.”

    I think the irony is lost on you actually, you do need to watch PMQs.

    The irony not just of a politician presiding over the biggest tax take since the war, who has been in government the last 10 years, ticking off the opposition for a windfall tax proposal, but her own solution to the crisis now means working family’s paying the £200B back in TAX and on BILLS for decades.

    I was left open mouthed. The irony is just INSANE.

    Yet everyone parrots, didn’t she do well, what a great day she had.

    It was surreal. She was like some Spike Milligan sketch - Maggie Thatcher in a Dalek.

    “I. Am. A. Dalek. Thatcher. You - will - be - disgraced.”

    I go to enough work meetings which end up a bit like PMQs to want to watch the real thing.

    As I say, the irony isn't lost on me. Here's a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury showing a level of fiscal irresponsibility I had thought reserved only for Labour Chancellors and some Councillors of my acquaintance.

    She has mortgaged the future to save the present and her worthless political skin. For that alone, she and her Party deserve to be cast out (very Biblical I know but there's plenty of faith in the new Cabinet) for a couple of generations.

    We can but hope - what she has perpetrated makes Liam Byrne's note in 2010 seem almost jocular in comparison.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    biggles said:

    Steve Baker has been made a minister. NI.

    Just the sort of calm head we need to negotiate out our differences with the Irish.
    Strikes me as a 'get him away from plots in Westminster' move.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,111

    Steve Baker has been made a minister. NI.


    SDLP MP Claire Hanna - ERG takeover of Northern Ireland Office ‘totally obnoxious’.
     
    South Belfast Hanna has raised serious questions about the policy direction of Truss’ administration following the appointment of Steve Baker and Chris Heaton Harris to NI minister and NI SoS

    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1567560703061495808

    I don’t mind the Steve Baker appointment. It will either teach him that things are far more complicated than he has ever realised, which will be no bad thing. Or, he’ll continue his hard man of Brexit routine and fall flat on his arse, in which case he’ll be sacrificed. Babies.
    https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1567557618142531589
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453
    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss needs to do two things regarding energy costs to gain support. As well as keeping the cap at current levels, she needs to impose a windfall tax on energy suppliers. The public see the excess profits being made and don’t understand why the energy companies should reap the benefit. It she does both of these, she could receive a significant bounce.

    Truss won't, she make clear today ideologically she is very much a free market liberal Thatcherite PM when Starmer said she should impose a windfall tax on energy companies to fund a cap on costs for consumers
    I presume she thinks somehow the "Magic Growth Fairy" will bestow its munificence upon us and the increase in debt interest payments and the debasement of our currency can all somehow be wished away by tax cuts.

    I'm not entirely convinced - Margaret Thatcher has North Sea Oil receipts and later privatisation receipts.
    And gas, too.
    And the City big bang.

    There is a lot of comment on the diverse ethnicities in the cabinet, and also their private educations, but what struck me most was that so many of them had made a fortune in Londons financial services, as too had many Sunakites.

    Nothing wrong with the City having a voice, but is such a preponderance of cosmpolitan posho metropolitan financiers running the country quite what Hartlepool and Stoke on Trent had in mind when they voted Brexit and then Johnson?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,634
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Sweden votes in four days - the latest Novus poll has the centre-left bloc still narrowly ahead on 50.1% to the centre-right on 48.6% (Sweden Democrats 20.6%, Moderates 17.3%).

    Looks like another Social Democrat minority government then, though needing the support of the Centre Party who have switched from the centre right block. The biggest gainers though still likely to be the Sweden Democrats
    Oddly enough, for all the campaigning, very little change from last time. Sweden Democrats up 3, Moderates down two and a half, Greens up one and a half, everyone else within a point of their 2018 result.
    Sweden Democrats overtake the Moderates as the main opposition party of the right looks like the biggest change.

    Sweden then follows France and Italy and Poland with the main centre right party overtaken by a party of the populist Nationalist right
    Interesting point I hadn’t considered, but you’re right. We’ve all seen thousands of words written on the death of social democrats in Europe, but are the conservatives on the way out too? When is there a European election and what might happen in the Parliament?
  • Liverpool 2 down in Naples and should be 4, Naples missing a second penalty and then a sitter

    Naples are tearing Liverpool apart
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,634
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss needs to do two things regarding energy costs to gain support. As well as keeping the cap at current levels, she needs to impose a windfall tax on energy suppliers. The public see the excess profits being made and don’t understand why the energy companies should reap the benefit. It she does both of these, she could receive a significant bounce.

    Truss won't, she make clear today ideologically she is very much a free market liberal Thatcherite PM when Starmer said she should impose a windfall tax on energy companies to fund a cap on costs for consumers
    I presume she thinks somehow the "Magic Growth Fairy" will bestow its munificence upon us and the increase in debt interest payments and the debasement of our currency can all somehow be wished away by tax cuts.

    I'm not entirely convinced - Margaret Thatcher has North Sea Oil receipts and later privatisation receipts.
    And gas, too.
    And the City big bang.

    There is a lot of comment on the diverse ethnicities in the cabinet, and also their private educations, but what struck me most was that so many of them had made a fortune in Londons financial services, as too had many Sunakites.

    Nothing wrong with the City having a voice, but is such a preponderance of cosmpolitan posho metropolitan financiers running the country quite what Hartlepool and Stoke on Trent had in mind when they voted Brexit and then Johnson?
    A lot of worrying guff is being spoken about the need for deregulation of the City. Almost as silly as the laffer curve nonsense.

  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    WTI crude lowest since early January. $82/barrel.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited September 7

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I haven't watched PMQs (even the snippets on the news). I suspect, as others have said, the initial civility won't last and we'll be back to the usual slanging match.

    I'd have thought your first PMQs would be the easiest for any Prime Minister as you have the advantages of time and novelty. Starmer will no doubt have learned plenty from the initial skirmishes and we'll see how his approach varies from that he came to apply to Johnson in the coming weeks.

    So, on to the great Energy Price Freeze - any hope I had the Truss administration might have been worth supporting is immediately blown apart by this piece of stupidity in extremis.

    Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.

    It is short-termist, a panicked solution predicated on 3-4 months of a zombie Government which did nothing and prepared for nothing. Ideologically, even a windfall tax on the energy companies isn't on the table so they will make grotesque profits and pay their CEOs grotesque salaries which will regularly be pointed out.

    There's little or no incentive to use less gas or electricity - why bother? The Government's going to pay the bill - more accurately, our children and grandchildren will end up paying.

    It's simple - there's no time or thought to see if those who can afford to pay the increased energy bills could actually do so - the billionaire in his mansion, the poor man at his gate - all will be treated the same. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it.

    To add to this legacy, we'll have Ben Wallace taking more money for Defence (you do know there's a war on?) and Truss angling for her tax cut. It's obvious the public sector is going to be looking at some very tough decisions this year complicated further by the cost of the changes to the social care legislation.

    “Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.”

    I think the irony is lost on you actually, you do need to watch PMQs.

    The irony not just of a politician presiding over the biggest tax take since the war, who has been in government the last 10 years, ticking off the opposition for a windfall tax proposal, but her own solution to the crisis now means working family’s paying the £200B back in TAX and on BILLS for decades.

    I was left open mouthed. The irony is just INSANE.

    Yet everyone parrots, didn’t she do well, what a great day she had.

    It was surreal. She was like some Spike Milligan sketch - Maggie Thatcher in a Dalek.

    “I. Am. A. Dalek. Thatcher. You - will - be - disgraced.”
    I hope there's mass non-payment of inflated bills. F*** the corrupt oligarchy and the banks.

    First step: everyone cancel their direct debits. (Those who are naive enough to have any.)

    The City won't like it up 'em.

    Second step: at a prearranged time, everyone withdraw £100 or however much they can afford, in cash, from their bank accounts.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,631

    "Kelly Tolhurst has been made an education minister"

    O.....kay........

    Perhaps Truss is really anxious to try and make people nostalgic for her tenure there.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,962


    The alternative is a million freeze to death this winter? The ridiculous windfall tax extension will raise, according to Labour perhaps 8 billion quid. Enough for a couple hundred in handouts to each family or a monthish of cap freeze. The fact they are obsessed with it suggests they have nothing to offer as a solution to the massive shit we are in. Its a massive, massive distraction

    There's two types of solution.

    There's what we have which means everyone will be helped whether they are huge users of electricity or gas, multi-billion pound organisations or individuals or the very poorest. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it as I said earlier.

    Now, for the controversial bit - yes, a lot of people and businesses would struggle to pay the projected increases in gas and electricity bills but that doesn't mean there aren't those who could pay and many others who could pay some part of the increase. This didn't start last week - this has been on the cards for months but the current Government's own self-indulgence has prevented it examining solutions which would mean those who could afford to pay more did so and thereby didn't mean borrowing so much for future generations to have to repay.

    No one should freeze to death - of course - but the converse is also true, There are plenty who could pay a little or indeed a lot more but there's no effort to try to get them to do so. It's so much easier to kick the can down the road after months of internal Conservative wrangling has left us without an adequate plan.

    At least Labour are trying to mitigate the situation - I agree it's a drop in the ocean if we get well north of £100 billion required to support this scheme.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,297

    Liverpool 2 down in Naples and should be 4, Naples missing a second penalty and then a sitter

    Naples are tearing Liverpool apart

    Well. Everton more than matched them and Man United outplayed them so it shouldn't be too great a surprise.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,631

    biggles said:

    Steve Baker has been made a minister. NI.

    Just the sort of calm head we need to negotiate out our differences with the Irish.
    Strikes me as a 'get him away from plots in Westminster' move.

    Thatcher did it to Jim Prior. She actually said it was 'to get him out of my hair.'
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,111
    Labour’s former Chief Whip Nick Brown has himself had the whip suspended after a complaint reports ⁦@PippaCrerar⁩, the nature of which hasn’t been revealed by the party. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/07/labour-mp-nick-brown-whip-suspended-complaint
  • stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I haven't watched PMQs (even the snippets on the news). I suspect, as others have said, the initial civility won't last and we'll be back to the usual slanging match.

    I'd have thought your first PMQs would be the easiest for any Prime Minister as you have the advantages of time and novelty. Starmer will no doubt have learned plenty from the initial skirmishes and we'll see how his approach varies from that he came to apply to Johnson in the coming weeks.

    So, on to the great Energy Price Freeze - any hope I had the Truss administration might have been worth supporting is immediately blown apart by this piece of stupidity in extremis.

    Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.

    It is short-termist, a panicked solution predicated on 3-4 months of a zombie Government which did nothing and prepared for nothing. Ideologically, even a windfall tax on the energy companies isn't on the table so they will make grotesque profits and pay their CEOs grotesque salaries which will regularly be pointed out.

    There's little or no incentive to use less gas or electricity - why bother? The Government's going to pay the bill - more accurately, our children and grandchildren will end up paying.

    It's simple - there's no time or thought to see if those who can afford to pay the increased energy bills could actually do so - the billionaire in his mansion, the poor man at his gate - all will be treated the same. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it.

    To add to this legacy, we'll have Ben Wallace taking more money for Defence (you do know there's a war on?) and Truss angling for her tax cut. It's obvious the public sector is going to be looking at some very tough decisions this year complicated further by the cost of the changes to the social care legislation.

    “Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.”

    I think the irony is lost on you actually, you do need to watch PMQs.

    The irony not just of a politician presiding over the biggest tax take since the war, who has been in government the last 10 years, ticking off the opposition for a windfall tax proposal, but her own solution to the crisis now means working family’s paying the £200B back in TAX and on BILLS for decades.

    I was left open mouthed. The irony is just INSANE.

    Yet everyone parrots, didn’t she do well, what a great day she had.

    It was surreal. She was like some Spike Milligan sketch - Maggie Thatcher in a Dalek.

    “I. Am. A. Dalek. Thatcher. You - will - be - disgraced.”
    The alternative is a million freeze to death this winter? The ridiculous windfall tax extension will raise, according to Labour perhaps 8 billion quid. Enough for a couple hundred in handouts to each family or a monthish of cap freeze. The fact they are obsessed with it suggests they have nothing to offer as a solution to the massive shit we are in. Its a massive, massive distraction
    It will not even raise 8 billion as the windfall tax has already been used by Sunak in the 37 billion including the £400 October grant

    Also where has 200 billion borrowing come from paying it back v the bills which has been ruled out

    I expect tomorrow business will receive similar support but directed at small businesses with different schemes for large companies, whose shareholders will be required to take the hit before intervention

    It is true the public want a windfall tax but Truss needs to stick to her guns as the windfall tax is a political ruse which raises very little compared to the message it sends to these companies that we need their investments in billions into the North Sea

    I thought Truss response to Blackford was excellent saying he wants a windfall tax on profits from the companies he wants to stop producing oil and gas in the North Sea
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,562
    Vicentina Clams in garlic and parsley - LOVELY

    Then Alentejo black pig cheeks with confit tomatoes - ALSO LOVELY

    WHAT IS GOING ON IN PORTUGAL





  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,631
    This must be the daftest paragraph in the history of sports reporting:

    Tattersall handed over the gloves to Tom Kohler-Cadmore, who immediately stumped Josh Bohannon for five. Then the young Yorkshire skipper put himself on to bowl and had Jennings caught at backward point by Coad, whose trousers fell down.

    Honestly, I knew Yorkshire were in a mess, but I had no idea they craved this level of exposure!
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,775
    edited September 7
    MISTY said:

    WTI crude lowest since early January. $82/barrel.

    Like I said fpt, a good news day all in all. This, and Liz at pmq, and a poke in the eye for Putin from the Ukies, and my Spanish granddaughter getting her UK passport and coming to Durham to study engineering, and I was in the winning team at bowling, and …

  • Liverpool 3 down
  • Leon said:

    Anyway. Enough trolling of the less intelligent PBers like @foxy and @BartholomewRoberts and @DougSeal and @kle

    Just enjoying the twilight now. The delicate dark blue light over the trees. The swallows that whirl in the dusty, cooling light, scented with the first fruits of autumn. The sense of summer handing the baton to the poetics of the Fall




    WTF, why have I been tagged in this? I've not even been online or commenting.

    I liked a post on the prior thread, as it was an interesting post (the one with the explanation that the photo is a forgery was interesting)..

    I don't think you're a Nazi because of what was obviously a parody image. I do think you (at least pretend to) have fascist tendencies due to your support for Trump, even post 6 January, calls for the woke or scientists etc to be shot or imprisoned, and wanting boats to drown.
  • Napoli 3 - 0 Liverpool

    Not a good start to this season at all.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,913
    ydoethur said:

    This must be the daftest paragraph in the history of sports reporting:

    Tattersall handed over the gloves to Tom Kohler-Cadmore, who immediately stumped Josh Bohannon for five. Then the young Yorkshire skipper put himself on to bowl and had Jennings caught at backward point by Coad, whose trousers fell down.

    Honestly, I knew Yorkshire were in a mess, but I had no idea they craved this level of exposure!

    They don't wear underwear between Humber and Tees?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    edited September 7
    biggles said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Sweden votes in four days - the latest Novus poll has the centre-left bloc still narrowly ahead on 50.1% to the centre-right on 48.6% (Sweden Democrats 20.6%, Moderates 17.3%).

    Looks like another Social Democrat minority government then, though needing the support of the Centre Party who have switched from the centre right block. The biggest gainers though still likely to be the Sweden Democrats
    Oddly enough, for all the campaigning, very little change from last time. Sweden Democrats up 3, Moderates down two and a half, Greens up one and a half, everyone else within a point of their 2018 result.
    Sweden Democrats overtake the Moderates as the main opposition party of the right looks like the biggest change.

    Sweden then follows France and Italy and Poland with the main centre right party overtaken by a party of the populist Nationalist right
    Interesting point I hadn’t considered, but you’re right. We’ve all seen thousands of words written on the death of social democrats in Europe, but are the conservatives on the way out too? When is there a European election and what might happen in the Parliament?
    Indeed, the Social Democrats are in power in Germany and Sweden, Macron is in power in France with even Melenchon's party ahead of Les Republicains and the Socialists are in power in Spain.

    Where the right are making gains like in Italy or France or Sweden it is generally the Nationalist right not the centre right doing it. The next European Parliament election is not until 2024 but I would expect the Social Democrats, Greens and right nationalist blocks to make gains at the EPP's expense
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,493
    edited September 7
    Leon said:

    Vicentina Clams in garlic and parsley - LOVELY

    Then Alentejo black pig cheeks with confit tomatoes - ALSO LOVELY

    WHAT IS GOING ON IN PORTUGAL





    Love Ox cheek - bet that is lovely. Love black pig too.

    This is your most challenging 'Where's Hitler?' yet. Is he under the tomatoes?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,635

    Leon said:

    Anyway. Enough trolling of the less intelligent PBers like @foxy and @BartholomewRoberts and @DougSeal and @kle

    Just enjoying the twilight now. The delicate dark blue light over the trees. The swallows that whirl in the dusty, cooling light, scented with the first fruits of autumn. The sense of summer handing the baton to the poetics of the Fall




    WTF, why have I been tagged in this? I've not even been online or commenting.

    I liked a post on the prior thread, as it was an interesting post (the one with the explanation that the photo is a forgery was interesting)..

    I don't think you're a Nazi because of what was obviously a parody image. I do think you (at least pretend to) have fascist tendencies due to your support for Trump, even post 6 January, calls for the woke or scientists etc to be shot or imprisoned, and wanting boats to drown.
    He's a wannabe fascist, of that there's no doubt.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited September 7
    Dynamo said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I haven't watched PMQs (even the snippets on the news). I suspect, as others have said, the initial civility won't last and we'll be back to the usual slanging match.

    I'd have thought your first PMQs would be the easiest for any Prime Minister as you have the advantages of time and novelty. Starmer will no doubt have learned plenty from the initial skirmishes and we'll see how his approach varies from that he came to apply to Johnson in the coming weeks.

    So, on to the great Energy Price Freeze - any hope I had the Truss administration might have been worth supporting is immediately blown apart by this piece of stupidity in extremis.

    Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.

    It is short-termist, a panicked solution predicated on 3-4 months of a zombie Government which did nothing and prepared for nothing. Ideologically, even a windfall tax on the energy companies isn't on the table so they will make grotesque profits and pay their CEOs grotesque salaries which will regularly be pointed out.

    There's little or no incentive to use less gas or electricity - why bother? The Government's going to pay the bill - more accurately, our children and grandchildren will end up paying.

    It's simple - there's no time or thought to see if those who can afford to pay the increased energy bills could actually do so - the billionaire in his mansion, the poor man at his gate - all will be treated the same. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it.

    To add to this legacy, we'll have Ben Wallace taking more money for Defence (you do know there's a war on?) and Truss angling for her tax cut. It's obvious the public sector is going to be looking at some very tough decisions this year complicated further by the cost of the changes to the social care legislation.

    “Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.”

    I think the irony is lost on you actually, you do need to watch PMQs.

    The irony not just of a politician presiding over the biggest tax take since the war, who has been in government the last 10 years, ticking off the opposition for a windfall tax proposal, but her own solution to the crisis now means working family’s paying the £200B back in TAX and on BILLS for decades.

    I was left open mouthed. The irony is just INSANE.

    Yet everyone parrots, didn’t she do well, what a great day she had.

    It was surreal. She was like some Spike Milligan sketch - Maggie Thatcher in a Dalek.

    “I. Am. A. Dalek. Thatcher. You - will - be - disgraced.”
    I hope there's mass non-payment of inflated bills. F*** the corrupt oligarchy and the banks.

    First step: everyone cancel their direct debits. (Those who are naive enough to have any.)

    The City won't like it up 'em.

    Second step: at a prearranged time, everyone withdraw £100 or however much they can afford, in cash, from their bank accounts.
    Polly Toynbee talking about the next f***ing GE reminds me of...guess who? Jeremy Corbyn, who in 1984, during the miners' strike, a mere one year after a GE won by the Tories with a large majority, said that the most important thing to do was to build for a Labour victory in the next election. (I personally heard him do that, from the floor at a meeting in Islington.)

    F*** Labourite parliamentarism. No amount of questions in the House will achieve anything.

    Can't pay? Won't pay! It's inevitable that some people will suss that that's the way forward.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,962


    It will not even raise 8 billion as the windfall tax has already been used by Sunak in the 37 billion including the £400 October grant

    Also where has 200 billion borrowing come from paying it back v the bills which has been ruled out

    I expect tomorrow business will receive similar support but directed at small businesses with different schemes for large companies, whose shareholders will be required to take the hit before intervention

    It is true the public want a windfall tax but Truss needs to stick to her guns as the windfall tax is a political ruse which raises very little compared to the message it sends to these companies that we need their investments in billions into the North Sea

    I thought Truss response to Blackford was excellent saying he wants a windfall tax on profits from the companies he wants to stop producing oil and gas in the North Sea

    The CEO of Scottish Power said at the weekend his view was the energy price cap would cost a "conservative £100 billion" and many analysts think it will be a) much more than that and b) especially if it needs to be maintained throughout 2023.

    My objection is it is all being thrown onto future generations in the form of borrowing which will mean higher debt interest repayments. Do you think that's sensible?

    My second objection is it doesn't encourage anyone to use less gas or electricity. Why should they? The Government will carry on paying the excess.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,631
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    This must be the daftest paragraph in the history of sports reporting:

    Tattersall handed over the gloves to Tom Kohler-Cadmore, who immediately stumped Josh Bohannon for five. Then the young Yorkshire skipper put himself on to bowl and had Jennings caught at backward point by Coad, whose trousers fell down.

    Honestly, I knew Yorkshire were in a mess, but I had no idea they craved this level of exposure!

    They don't wear underwear between Humber and Tees?
    It's OK, their performance was sufficiently pants to make up for it!
  • Napoli 3 - 0 Liverpool

    Not a good start to this season at all.

    Actully they are being taken apart and should have been 5

    Klopp to follow Tuchel ?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I did like this comment on the Cabinet

    In a few centuries, President of COP26 will become one of these sinecures, like Lord Privy Seal and Captain of the Honourable Gentlemen-at-Arms, whose original purpose has been long forgotten but which remain permanent features of the political landscape.

    https://twitter.com/yuanyi_z/status/1567247433201074177?cxt=HHwWgoC-sZTP_b8rAAAA

    It will actually blow everyone's mind when they realise this country has a Steward.
    Which country? I can think of at least two Stewards.
    Have they resolved who the Chief Butler of England is yet?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,913
    edited September 7
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/07/tenants-fear-eviction-as-cornwall-estate-is-put-on-market-for-1575m

    Cornish news (re Trevalga estate). (There is a decimal point missing in the URL.)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,709
    stodge said:


    It will not even raise 8 billion as the windfall tax has already been used by Sunak in the 37 billion including the £400 October grant

    Also where has 200 billion borrowing come from paying it back v the bills which has been ruled out

    I expect tomorrow business will receive similar support but directed at small businesses with different schemes for large companies, whose shareholders will be required to take the hit before intervention

    It is true the public want a windfall tax but Truss needs to stick to her guns as the windfall tax is a political ruse which raises very little compared to the message it sends to these companies that we need their investments in billions into the North Sea

    I thought Truss response to Blackford was excellent saying he wants a windfall tax on profits from the companies he wants to stop producing oil and gas in the North Sea

    The CEO of Scottish Power said at the weekend his view was the energy price cap would cost a "conservative £100 billion" and many analysts think it will be a) much more than that and b) especially if it needs to be maintained throughout 2023.

    My objection is it is all being thrown onto future generations in the form of borrowing which will mean higher debt interest repayments. Do you think that's sensible?

    My second objection is it doesn't encourage anyone to use less gas or electricity. Why should they? The Government will carry on paying the excess.
    At a 2.5k cap people will be more careful. This is almost twice last years level still.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    edited September 7
    stodge said:


    The alternative is a million freeze to death this winter? The ridiculous windfall tax extension will raise, according to Labour perhaps 8 billion quid. Enough for a couple hundred in handouts to each family or a monthish of cap freeze. The fact they are obsessed with it suggests they have nothing to offer as a solution to the massive shit we are in. Its a massive, massive distraction

    There's two types of solution.

    There's what we have which means everyone will be helped whether they are huge users of electricity or gas, multi-billion pound organisations or individuals or the very poorest. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it as I said earlier.

    Now, for the controversial bit - yes, a lot of people and businesses would struggle to pay the projected increases in gas and electricity bills but that doesn't mean there aren't those who could pay and many others who could pay some part of the increase. This didn't start last week - this has been on the cards for months but the current Government's own self-indulgence has prevented it examining solutions which would mean those who could afford to pay more did so and thereby didn't mean borrowing so much for future generations to have to repay.

    No one should freeze to death - of course - but the converse is also true, There are plenty who could pay a little or indeed a lot more but there's no effort to try to get them to do so. It's so much easier to kick the can down the road after months of internal Conservative wrangling has left us without an adequate plan.

    At least Labour are trying to mitigate the situation - I agree it's a drop in the ocean if we get well north of £100 billion required to support this scheme.
    There is no reason that someone with wealth should pay more per unit for their electricity and gas than they should have to pay double for a chicken in a supermarket. To suggest they should is imposing a wealth tax that goes directly into private profit and does not benefit anyone else. Now, thats not to say you cannot recoup that ability to pay more through general taxation.
    Labours plan is even more regressive, at least the Conservative plan keeps the direct £400 subsidy, helping those paying the least the most (encouraging frugality and broadly helping the poorer a little more)

    The upshot is we need the full detail and how it impacts the outlook, bloomberg yesterday suggested it might avoid a UK recession - growth projections then impact the long term debt, interest and thus effect of whatever the final plan is. Hopefully it supports small and medium business who Labour have simply ignored in this.
  • Napoli 3 - 0 Liverpool

    Not a good start to this season at all.

    Actully they are being taken apart and should have been 5

    Klopp to follow Tuchel ?
    Not a snowballs chance in hell. FSG will absolutely stand behind Klopp, not some pathetic wishy washy organisation reacting to the last weeks headlines like Chelski even under its new owner.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,962
    MISTY said:

    WTI crude lowest since early January. $82/barrel.

    Natural Gas at 402p per therm so well off its recent highs - however, still well up on the 137p it was this time last year.

  • stodge said:


    “Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.”

    I think the irony is lost on you actually, you do need to watch PMQs.

    The irony not just of a politician presiding over the biggest tax take since the war, who has been in government the last 10 years, ticking off the opposition for a windfall tax proposal, but her own solution to the crisis now means working family’s paying the £200B back in TAX and on BILLS for decades.

    I was left open mouthed. The irony is just INSANE.

    Yet everyone parrots, didn’t she do well, what a great day she had.

    It was surreal. She was like some Spike Milligan sketch - Maggie Thatcher in a Dalek.

    “I. Am. A. Dalek. Thatcher. You - will - be - disgraced.”

    I go to enough work meetings which end up a bit like PMQs to want to watch the real thing.

    As I say, the irony isn't lost on me. Here's a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury showing a level of fiscal irresponsibility I had thought reserved only for Labour Chancellors and some Councillors of my acquaintance.

    She has mortgaged the future to save the present and her worthless political skin. For that alone, she and her Party deserve to be cast out (very Biblical I know but there's plenty of faith in the new Cabinet) for a couple of generations.

    We can but hope - what she has perpetrated makes Liam Byrne's note in 2010 seem almost jocular in comparison.
    I am not saying you are wrong by any means but if you are going to criticise then you have to tell us what your alternative plan is. Anyone can say 'this is rubbish but that is meaningless if you don't have a solution yourself'. This is not playground politics or even, heaven forfend, Political Betting arguments. This is real life. What is your solution?

    I also don't like the idea of piling all that debt on into the future but I do at least have an alternative plan - except it would probably destroy North Sea investment completely and make us even more in hoc to foreign gas imports. Which is why I don't criticise the apparent Truss plan in the way you and Moonrabbit do.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    stodge said:


    “Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.”

    I think the irony is lost on you actually, you do need to watch PMQs.

    The irony not just of a politician presiding over the biggest tax take since the war, who has been in government the last 10 years, ticking off the opposition for a windfall tax proposal, but her own solution to the crisis now means working family’s paying the £200B back in TAX and on BILLS for decades.

    I was left open mouthed. The irony is just INSANE.

    Yet everyone parrots, didn’t she do well, what a great day she had.

    It was surreal. She was like some Spike Milligan sketch - Maggie Thatcher in a Dalek.

    “I. Am. A. Dalek. Thatcher. You - will - be - disgraced.”

    I go to enough work meetings which end up a bit like PMQs to want to watch the real thing.

    As I say, the irony isn't lost on me. Here's a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury showing a level of fiscal irresponsibility I had thought reserved only for Labour Chancellors and some Councillors of my acquaintance.

    She has mortgaged the future to save the present and her worthless political skin. For that alone, she and her Party deserve to be cast out (very Biblical I know but there's plenty of faith in the new Cabinet) for a couple of generations.

    We can but hope - what she has perpetrated makes Liam Byrne's note in 2010 seem almost jocular in comparison.
    Because of lack of foresight in previous governments and Putin’s behaviour there are no good choices
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,913

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I did like this comment on the Cabinet

    In a few centuries, President of COP26 will become one of these sinecures, like Lord Privy Seal and Captain of the Honourable Gentlemen-at-Arms, whose original purpose has been long forgotten but which remain permanent features of the political landscape.

    https://twitter.com/yuanyi_z/status/1567247433201074177?cxt=HHwWgoC-sZTP_b8rAAAA

    It will actually blow everyone's mind when they realise this country has a Steward.
    Which country? I can think of at least two Stewards.
    Have they resolved who the Chief Butler of England is yet?
    Apparenbtly not.

    Wiki:

    'The Chief Butler of England is an office of Grand Sergeanty associated with the feudal Manor of Kenninghall in Norfolk. The office requires service to be provided to the Monarch at the Coronation, in this case the service of Pincera Regis, or Chief Butler at the Coronation banquet.

    [...]

    The last occasion on which a coronation banquet was considered was in 1902 for Edward VII, but plans were abandoned as a result of his illness. Three people claimed the right to act as Chief Butler at the Court of Claims that preceded the coronation – the Duke of Norfolk, Mr Taylor of Kenninghall and a descendant of William de Albini, but the claims were not considered and no decision was taken.'
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,562

    Leon said:

    Vicentina Clams in garlic and parsley - LOVELY

    Then Alentejo black pig cheeks with confit tomatoes - ALSO LOVELY

    WHAT IS GOING ON IN PORTUGAL





    Love Ox cheek - bet that is lovely. Love black pig too.

    This is your most challenging 'Where's Hitler?' yet. Is he under the tomatoes?
    You’d better ask @BartholomewRoberts or @DougSeal or @kle4 or @Foxy, ie the Proud PB Sub 90 IQ ers

    if they’re not busy hitting their heads with half bricks they could probably locate Himmler under the Rosemary

    The black pork cheek is fucking BRILLIANT, by the way
  • stodge said:


    It will not even raise 8 billion as the windfall tax has already been used by Sunak in the 37 billion including the £400 October grant

    Also where has 200 billion borrowing come from paying it back v the bills which has been ruled out

    I expect tomorrow business will receive similar support but directed at small businesses with different schemes for large companies, whose shareholders will be required to take the hit before intervention

    It is true the public want a windfall tax but Truss needs to stick to her guns as the windfall tax is a political ruse which raises very little compared to the message it sends to these companies that we need their investments in billions into the North Sea

    I thought Truss response to Blackford was excellent saying he wants a windfall tax on profits from the companies he wants to stop producing oil and gas in the North Sea

    The CEO of Scottish Power said at the weekend his view was the energy price cap would cost a "conservative £100 billion" and many analysts think it will be a) much more than that and b) especially if it needs to be maintained throughout 2023.

    My objection is it is all being thrown onto future generations in the form of borrowing which will mean higher debt interest repayments. Do you think that's sensible?

    My second objection is it doesn't encourage anyone to use less gas or electricity. Why should they? The Government will carry on paying the excess.
    The Government won't carry on paying the excess, that's a misunderstanding of the cap. The cap is based on average usage, have higher usage and you'll still pay more than the cap. Have lower usage, you'll pay less than it.

    And the cap as proposed is about 100% above last years level, so still high enough to encourage people to do any savings they can do, without being devastatingly expensive.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 19,944
    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s former Chief Whip Nick Brown has himself had the whip suspended after a complaint reports ⁦@PippaCrerar⁩, the nature of which hasn’t been revealed by the party. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/07/labour-mp-nick-brown-whip-suspended-complaint

    How many Labour MPs elected at the last general election have had the whip suspended?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,222
    edited September 7
    Some real signs of progress on the BBC tonight - a programme about literature in primetime BBC2, with an Arena this time about James Joyce's Ulysees, which I haven't the channe doing since the days of Bookmark, almost 25 years ago.

    Well done, the BBC - finally.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453
    stodge said:


    It will not even raise 8 billion as the windfall tax has already been used by Sunak in the 37 billion including the £400 October grant

    Also where has 200 billion borrowing come from paying it back v the bills which has been ruled out

    I expect tomorrow business will receive similar support but directed at small businesses with different schemes for large companies, whose shareholders will be required to take the hit before intervention

    It is true the public want a windfall tax but Truss needs to stick to her guns as the windfall tax is a political ruse which raises very little compared to the message it sends to these companies that we need their investments in billions into the North Sea

    I thought Truss response to Blackford was excellent saying he wants a windfall tax on profits from the companies he wants to stop producing oil and gas in the North Sea

    The CEO of Scottish Power said at the weekend his view was the energy price cap would cost a "conservative £100 billion" and many analysts think it will be a) much more than that and b) especially if it needs to be maintained throughout 2023.

    My objection is it is all being thrown onto future generations in the form of borrowing which will mean higher debt interest repayments. Do you think that's sensible?

    My second objection is it doesn't encourage anyone to use less gas or electricity. Why should they? The Government will carry on paying the excess.
    I agree. Price is a rather blunt instrument to reduce demand, but demand does have to be reduced, and in concert with other countries on the continent. Otherwise we just free up more gas for the EU.

    I really don't see much alternative to rationing in some form. Hopefully not the even blunter instrument of rolling blackouts.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651

    stodge said:


    The alternative is a million freeze to death this winter? The ridiculous windfall tax extension will raise, according to Labour perhaps 8 billion quid. Enough for a couple hundred in handouts to each family or a monthish of cap freeze. The fact they are obsessed with it suggests they have nothing to offer as a solution to the massive shit we are in. Its a massive, massive distraction

    There's two types of solution.

    There's what we have which means everyone will be helped whether they are huge users of electricity or gas, multi-billion pound organisations or individuals or the very poorest. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it as I said earlier.

    Now, for the controversial bit - yes, a lot of people and businesses would struggle to pay the projected increases in gas and electricity bills but that doesn't mean there aren't those who could pay and many others who could pay some part of the increase. This didn't start last week - this has been on the cards for months but the current Government's own self-indulgence has prevented it examining solutions which would mean those who could afford to pay more did so and thereby didn't mean borrowing so much for future generations to have to repay.

    No one should freeze to death - of course - but the converse is also true, There are plenty who could pay a little or indeed a lot more but there's no effort to try to get them to do so. It's so much easier to kick the can down the road after months of internal Conservative wrangling has left us without an adequate plan.

    At least Labour are trying to mitigate the situation - I agree it's a drop in the ocean if we get well north of £100 billion required to support this scheme.
    There is no reason that someone with wealth should pay more per unit for their electricity and gas than they should have to pay double for a chicken in a supermarket. To suggest they should is imposing a wealth tax that goes directly into private profit and does not benefit anyone else. Now, thats not to say you cannot recoup that ability to pay more through general taxation.
    Labours plan is even more regressive, at least the Conservative plan keeps the direct £400 subsidy, helping those paying the least the most (encouraging frugality and broadly helping the poorer a little more)

    The upshot is we need the full detail and how it impacts the outlook, bloomberg yesterday suggested it might avoid a UK recession - growth projections then impact the long term debt, interest and thus effect of whatever the final plan is. Hopefully it supports small and medium business who Labour have simply ignored in this.
    Taxing the rich more than the poor (however it's done) is progressive, not regressive.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,836

    stodge said:


    The alternative is a million freeze to death this winter? The ridiculous windfall tax extension will raise, according to Labour perhaps 8 billion quid. Enough for a couple hundred in handouts to each family or a monthish of cap freeze. The fact they are obsessed with it suggests they have nothing to offer as a solution to the massive shit we are in. Its a massive, massive distraction

    There's two types of solution.

    There's what we have which means everyone will be helped whether they are huge users of electricity or gas, multi-billion pound organisations or individuals or the very poorest. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it as I said earlier.

    Now, for the controversial bit - yes, a lot of people and businesses would struggle to pay the projected increases in gas and electricity bills but that doesn't mean there aren't those who could pay and many others who could pay some part of the increase. This didn't start last week - this has been on the cards for months but the current Government's own self-indulgence has prevented it examining solutions which would mean those who could afford to pay more did so and thereby didn't mean borrowing so much for future generations to have to repay.

    No one should freeze to death - of course - but the converse is also true, There are plenty who could pay a little or indeed a lot more but there's no effort to try to get them to do so. It's so much easier to kick the can down the road after months of internal Conservative wrangling has left us without an adequate plan.

    At least Labour are trying to mitigate the situation - I agree it's a drop in the ocean if we get well north of £100 billion required to support this scheme.
    There is no reason that someone with wealth should pay more per unit for their electricity and gas than they should have to pay double for a chicken in a supermarket.
    How absolutely absurd. There is every reason why a millionaire shouldn't have his bills subsidised by the taxpayer just because someone else is having to be saved by the taxpayer from freezing to death.
  • PMQs analysis: Liz Truss strikes early double blow against Sir Keir Starmer..but did she fall into his trap?
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/pmqs-liz-truss-keir-starmer-windfall-tax-tories-labour-b1023899.html

    The Standard wonders if Liz Truss's principled opposition to a windfall tax might actually be her stumbling into a trap.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    MISTY said:

    WTI crude lowest since early January. $82/barrel.

    WTI pricing not really. Brent in the high 80s vs 75 a year ago
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,634
    geoffw said:

    MISTY said:

    WTI crude lowest since early January. $82/barrel.

    Like I said fpt, a good news day all in all. This, and Liz at pmq, and a poke in the eye for Putin from the Ukies, and my Spanish granddaughter getting her UK passport and coming to Durham to study engineering, and I was in the winning team at bowling, and …

    Are you a Man United or Everton fan as well?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    Dynamo said:

    stodge said:


    The alternative is a million freeze to death this winter? The ridiculous windfall tax extension will raise, according to Labour perhaps 8 billion quid. Enough for a couple hundred in handouts to each family or a monthish of cap freeze. The fact they are obsessed with it suggests they have nothing to offer as a solution to the massive shit we are in. Its a massive, massive distraction

    There's two types of solution.

    There's what we have which means everyone will be helped whether they are huge users of electricity or gas, multi-billion pound organisations or individuals or the very poorest. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it as I said earlier.

    Now, for the controversial bit - yes, a lot of people and businesses would struggle to pay the projected increases in gas and electricity bills but that doesn't mean there aren't those who could pay and many others who could pay some part of the increase. This didn't start last week - this has been on the cards for months but the current Government's own self-indulgence has prevented it examining solutions which would mean those who could afford to pay more did so and thereby didn't mean borrowing so much for future generations to have to repay.

    No one should freeze to death - of course - but the converse is also true, There are plenty who could pay a little or indeed a lot more but there's no effort to try to get them to do so. It's so much easier to kick the can down the road after months of internal Conservative wrangling has left us without an adequate plan.

    At least Labour are trying to mitigate the situation - I agree it's a drop in the ocean if we get well north of £100 billion required to support this scheme.
    There is no reason that someone with wealth should pay more per unit for their electricity and gas than they should have to pay double for a chicken in a supermarket. To suggest they should is imposing a wealth tax that goes directly into private profit and does not benefit anyone else. Now, thats not to say you cannot recoup that ability to pay more through general taxation.
    Labours plan is even more regressive, at least the Conservative plan keeps the direct £400 subsidy, helping those paying the least the most (encouraging frugality and broadly helping the poorer a little more)

    The upshot is we need the full detail and how it impacts the outlook, bloomberg yesterday suggested it might avoid a UK recession - growth projections then impact the long term debt, interest and thus effect of whatever the final plan is. Hopefully it supports small and medium business who Labour have simply ignored in this.
    Taxing the rich more than the poor (however it's done) is progressive, not regressive.
    Labour propose a cap freeze and no £400 support. Thats more regressive than £400 support and a slightly higher cap as the latter helps the poorer and lower energy users most with the higher users and wealthier paying a little more
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    stodge said:


    The alternative is a million freeze to death this winter? The ridiculous windfall tax extension will raise, according to Labour perhaps 8 billion quid. Enough for a couple hundred in handouts to each family or a monthish of cap freeze. The fact they are obsessed with it suggests they have nothing to offer as a solution to the massive shit we are in. Its a massive, massive distraction

    There's two types of solution.

    There's what we have which means everyone will be helped whether they are huge users of electricity or gas, multi-billion pound organisations or individuals or the very poorest. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it as I said earlier.

    Now, for the controversial bit - yes, a lot of people and businesses would struggle to pay the projected increases in gas and electricity bills but that doesn't mean there aren't those who could pay and many others who could pay some part of the increase. This didn't start last week - this has been on the cards for months but the current Government's own self-indulgence has prevented it examining solutions which would mean those who could afford to pay more did so and thereby didn't mean borrowing so much for future generations to have to repay.

    No one should freeze to death - of course - but the converse is also true, There are plenty who could pay a little or indeed a lot more but there's no effort to try to get them to do so. It's so much easier to kick the can down the road after months of internal Conservative wrangling has left us without an adequate plan.

    At least Labour are trying to mitigate the situation - I agree it's a drop in the ocean if we get well north of £100 billion required to support this scheme.
    And you are mixing two issues

    Cap prices

    Put the upper rate of income tax up

    Don’t overly complicate the energy policy
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,962


    I am not saying you are wrong by any means but if you are going to criticise then you have to tell us what your alternative plan is. Anyone can say 'this is rubbish but that is meaningless if you don't have a solution yourself'. This is not playground politics or even, heaven forfend, Political Betting arguments. This is real life. What is your solution?

    I also don't like the idea of piling all that debt on into the future but I do at least have an alternative plan - except it would probably destroy North Sea investment completely and make us even more in hoc to foreign gas imports. Which is why I don't criticise the apparent Truss plan in the way you and Moonrabbit do.

    I think there was something in the original notion of defraying future price reductions over a 20 year period.

    Of course there are very many businesses and individuals and families who would struggle with the projected price cap increases - I'm not disputing that. However, I'd also contend there are those who could pay the increases or at least part of said.

    There has not been the work done or the time put in to coming up with a solution whereby those able to pay the additional energy prices can and do - even if we can defray 25% of the borrowing we will be doing future generations a favour.

    The other issue I have is that as well as this (the importance and necessity of which I entirely understand) we have a Government which seems to want to increase spending on defence AND cut taxes.

    To have said, for example, "because of the current crisis over energy bills, we will defer increases in defence spending and any tax reductions for at least 12 months" would have struck a note of fiscal sobriety and sense but I've not heard that.

    I recall a past Prime Minister saying we should live within our means and being warmly applauded when so doing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,562
    Word to the wise, chaps

    If you fall for a joke and thereby make yourself look like a tiny bit of a tit, just admit it

    Don’t get all angry and accusatory, or deny it ever happened, because that makes you look like more of a tit. This is a basic life lesson, I would have thought. Because, in the end, it IS just a joke

    That is all. Now I am off to watch Vikings Valhalla
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453
    Chris said:

    stodge said:


    The alternative is a million freeze to death this winter? The ridiculous windfall tax extension will raise, according to Labour perhaps 8 billion quid. Enough for a couple hundred in handouts to each family or a monthish of cap freeze. The fact they are obsessed with it suggests they have nothing to offer as a solution to the massive shit we are in. Its a massive, massive distraction

    There's two types of solution.

    There's what we have which means everyone will be helped whether they are huge users of electricity or gas, multi-billion pound organisations or individuals or the very poorest. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it as I said earlier.

    Now, for the controversial bit - yes, a lot of people and businesses would struggle to pay the projected increases in gas and electricity bills but that doesn't mean there aren't those who could pay and many others who could pay some part of the increase. This didn't start last week - this has been on the cards for months but the current Government's own self-indulgence has prevented it examining solutions which would mean those who could afford to pay more did so and thereby didn't mean borrowing so much for future generations to have to repay.

    No one should freeze to death - of course - but the converse is also true, There are plenty who could pay a little or indeed a lot more but there's no effort to try to get them to do so. It's so much easier to kick the can down the road after months of internal Conservative wrangling has left us without an adequate plan.

    At least Labour are trying to mitigate the situation - I agree it's a drop in the ocean if we get well north of £100 billion required to support this scheme.
    There is no reason that someone with wealth should pay more per unit for their electricity and gas than they should have to pay double for a chicken in a supermarket.
    How absolutely absurd. There is every reason why a millionaire shouldn't have his bills subsidised by the taxpayer just because someone else is having to be saved by the taxpayer from freezing to death.
    I think the difficulty is that time is of the essence, not least because of the Tory summer of self indulgence. Working out a complex means tested system and implementing it in a month is a tall order.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,297
    geoffw said:

    MISTY said:

    WTI crude lowest since early January. $82/barrel.

    Like I said fpt, a good news day all in all. This, and Liz at pmq, and a poke in the eye for Putin from the Ukies, and my Spanish granddaughter getting her UK passport and coming to Durham to study engineering, and I was in the winning team at bowling, and …

    Liverpool 3 down

    Haha.
    Love it when two unrelated consecutive posts juxtapose so beautifully.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,775
     
    Foxy said:

    stodge said:


    It will not even raise 8 billion as the windfall tax has already been used by Sunak in the 37 billion including the £400 October grant

    Also where has 200 billion borrowing come from paying it back v the bills which has been ruled out

    I expect tomorrow business will receive similar support but directed at small businesses with different schemes for large companies, whose shareholders will be required to take the hit before intervention

    It is true the public want a windfall tax but Truss needs to stick to her guns as the windfall tax is a political ruse which raises very little compared to the message it sends to these companies that we need their investments in billions into the North Sea

    I thought Truss response to Blackford was excellent saying he wants a windfall tax on profits from the companies he wants to stop producing oil and gas in the North Sea

    The CEO of Scottish Power said at the weekend his view was the energy price cap would cost a "conservative £100 billion" and many analysts think it will be a) much more than that and b) especially if it needs to be maintained throughout 2023.

    My objection is it is all being thrown onto future generations in the form of borrowing which will mean higher debt interest repayments. Do you think that's sensible?

    My second objection is it doesn't encourage anyone to use less gas or electricity. Why should they? The Government will carry on paying the excess.
    I agree. Price is a rather blunt instrument to reduce demand, but demand does have to be reduced, and in concert with other countries on the continent. Otherwise we just free up more gas for the EU.

    I really don't see much alternative to rationing in some form. Hopefully not the even blunter instrument of rolling blackouts.
    "Price is a rather blunt instrument to reduce demand" … "I really don't see much alternative to rationing in some form."
    Price is an impersonal rationing device that allocates a scarce commodity between users in an optimal fashion, encouraging parsimony and penalising profligacy. But you prefer the arbitrary whim of a politician or bureaucrat to do the job!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    Dynamo said:

    Dynamo said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I haven't watched PMQs (even the snippets on the news). I suspect, as others have said, the initial civility won't last and we'll be back to the usual slanging match.

    I'd have thought your first PMQs would be the easiest for any Prime Minister as you have the advantages of time and novelty. Starmer will no doubt have learned plenty from the initial skirmishes and we'll see how his approach varies from that he came to apply to Johnson in the coming weeks.

    So, on to the great Energy Price Freeze - any hope I had the Truss administration might have been worth supporting is immediately blown apart by this piece of stupidity in extremis.

    Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.

    It is short-termist, a panicked solution predicated on 3-4 months of a zombie Government which did nothing and prepared for nothing. Ideologically, even a windfall tax on the energy companies isn't on the table so they will make grotesque profits and pay their CEOs grotesque salaries which will regularly be pointed out.

    There's little or no incentive to use less gas or electricity - why bother? The Government's going to pay the bill - more accurately, our children and grandchildren will end up paying.

    It's simple - there's no time or thought to see if those who can afford to pay the increased energy bills could actually do so - the billionaire in his mansion, the poor man at his gate - all will be treated the same. It's equality, Jim, but not as we know it.

    To add to this legacy, we'll have Ben Wallace taking more money for Defence (you do know there's a war on?) and Truss angling for her tax cut. It's obvious the public sector is going to be looking at some very tough decisions this year complicated further by the cost of the changes to the social care legislation.

    “Having read yesterday there was a notion of recouping some of the loan by defraying future price reductions it now seems Truss and Kwarteng haven't got the cojones to even do that. Instead, in pure Sunak style (the irony not lost on me), the whole lot (£100 billion, £200 billion, take your pick) is going to be met by borrowing so future generations will be paying for this nonsense which means they won't be able to do the things they want because they'll be paying billions in debt interest we will have passed on as our legacy.”

    I think the irony is lost on you actually, you do need to watch PMQs.

    The irony not just of a politician presiding over the biggest tax take since the war, who has been in government the last 10 years, ticking off the opposition for a windfall tax proposal, but her own solution to the crisis now means working family’s paying the £200B back in TAX and on BILLS for decades.

    I was left open mouthed. The irony is just INSANE.

    Yet everyone parrots, didn’t she do well, what a great day she had.

    It was surreal. She was like some Spike Milligan sketch - Maggie Thatcher in a Dalek.

    “I. Am. A. Dalek. Thatcher. You - will - be - disgraced.”
    I hope there's mass non-payment of inflated bills. F*** the corrupt oligarchy and the banks.

    First step: everyone cancel their direct debits. (Those who are naive enough to have any.)

    The City won't like it up 'em.

    Second step: at a prearranged time, everyone withdraw £100 or however much they can afford, in cash, from their bank accounts.
    Polly Toynbee talking about the next f***ing GE reminds me of...guess who? Jeremy Corbyn, who in 1984, during the miners'strike, a mere one year after a GE won by the Tories with a large majority, said that the most important thing to do was to build for a Labour victory in the next election. (I personally heard him do that, from the floor at a meeting in Islington.)

    F*** Labourite parliamentarism. No amount of questions in the House will achieve anything.

    Can't pay? Won't pay! It's inevitable that some people will suss that that's the way forward.
    “Some people” being Russian agitators?

  • Foxy said:

    stodge said:


    It will not even raise 8 billion as the windfall tax has already been used by Sunak in the 37 billion including the £400 October grant

    Also where has 200 billion borrowing come from paying it back v the bills which has been ruled out

    I expect tomorrow business will receive similar support but directed at small businesses with different schemes for large companies, whose shareholders will be required to take the hit before intervention

    It is true the public want a windfall tax but Truss needs to stick to her guns as the windfall tax is a political ruse which raises very little compared to the message it sends to these companies that we need their investments in billions into the North Sea

    I thought Truss response to Blackford was excellent saying he wants a windfall tax on profits from the companies he wants to stop producing oil and gas in the North Sea

    The CEO of Scottish Power said at the weekend his view was the energy price cap would cost a "conservative £100 billion" and many analysts think it will be a) much more than that and b) especially if it needs to be maintained throughout 2023.

    My objection is it is all being thrown onto future generations in the form of borrowing which will mean higher debt interest repayments. Do you think that's sensible?

    My second objection is it doesn't encourage anyone to use less gas or electricity. Why should they? The Government will carry on paying the excess.
    I agree. Price is a rather blunt instrument to reduce demand, but demand does have to be reduced, and in concert with other countries on the continent. Otherwise we just free up more gas for the EU.

    I really don't see much alternative to rationing in some form. Hopefully not the even blunter instrument of rolling blackouts.
    We need to be careful with rolling blackouts. This is not the 1970s. Blacking out data centres could hand over at a stroke much of our computer hosting industry to the United States or Europe. Power cuts to domestic premises could damage WFH and that includes not just posters to PB but doctors conducting virtual appointments, medical monitoring via the "internet of things", all the way down to ministers and civil servants on Zoom calls.
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