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Why the war on wokeism won’t work for the Tories – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 15 in General
Why the war on wokeism won’t work for the Tories – politicalbetting.com

The latest @IpsosUK Issues index out today. Unsurprisingly, concern about inflation / prices rises dominant (and rising). We know this but it can't hurt to be reminded of the scale of public concern out there. https://t.co/OV3Ew9aM0c pic.twitter.com/hllBGQKdYs

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Comments

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,296
    Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    22 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    19.5 Rishi Sunak 5%
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,843
    Judging by those figures, not much scope for any of the favourite last refuges of the Tories, including flag-waving, drum-beating and xenophobia.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,662
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: searching for betting potential.

    This link contains the starting grid, which is more mixed up due to penalties than it's been for a long time.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2022/races/1118/belgium/starting-grid.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,662
    Betting Post
    F1: unusually, I went for a short odds bet. Sainz to beat Leclerc at 1.44. He starts 15 places ahead of his team mate.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2022/08/belgium-pre-race-2022.html

    Also, if you backed Perez at 26 (I mentioned pre-weekend), I'd advocate laying him for the win at 4.7, though it's up to you, of course.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,401
    Now, I know the Pennsylvania Senate race has been rather done to death, but I was just looking though an AARP poll on it that was released last week: https://www.aarp.org/content/dam/aarp/research/surveys_statistics/politics/2022/aarp-pennsylvania-2022-elections-voter-survey.doi.10.26419-2Fres.00550.003.pdf

    In it, both the Pennsylvania Senate and Gubernatorial races are covered.

    So... Doug Mastriano is the Republican candidate for Governor, and he scores a +56 among Republicans for favourability.

    Shapiro is the Democratic candidate, and he gets +68 among Democrats.

    For the Senate, Fetterman manages +69 with Democrats.

    And - with Republicans - Dr Oz manages (and I'm not making this up) just +15.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,964
    Good morning from a radiant LHR T5. Something to mull over, Liz “fruitcake” Truss is likely to be PM when I get back. What the Frack! Scary!!
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,876
    murali_s said:

    Good morning from a radiant LHR T5. Something to mull over, Liz “fruitcake” Truss is likely to be PM when I get back. What the Frack! Scary!!

    Cheezy fruitcake?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    edited August 28

    Betting Post
    F1: unusually, I went for a short odds bet. Sainz to beat Leclerc at 1.44. He starts 15 places ahead of his team mate.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2022/08/belgium-pre-race-2022.html

    Also, if you backed Perez at 26 (I mentioned pre-weekend), I'd advocate laying him for the win at 4.7, though it's up to you, of course.

    Should be a very exciting first few laps, especially given the enormous pace differential between Ferrari, Red Bull and Alpine (50% of whose drivers are near the back) and the rest of the field.

    Mercedes again so far off the pace that you wonder if Hamilton wouldn't be quicker hopping around the track. 1.8 seconds slower than Vercrash'em? Sheesh.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    rcs1000 said:

    Now, I know the Pennsylvania Senate race has been rather done to death, but I was just looking though an AARP poll on it that was released last week: https://www.aarp.org/content/dam/aarp/research/surveys_statistics/politics/2022/aarp-pennsylvania-2022-elections-voter-survey.doi.10.26419-2Fres.00550.003.pdf

    In it, both the Pennsylvania Senate and Gubernatorial races are covered.

    So... Doug Mastriano is the Republican candidate for Governor, and he scores a +56 among Republicans for favourability.

    Shapiro is the Democratic candidate, and he gets +68 among Democrats.

    For the Senate, Fetterman manages +69 with Democrats.

    And - with Republicans - Dr Oz manages (and I'm not making this up) just +15.

    The fact it is not -100% given how dreadful a candidate he is is proof, if proof were needed, that slightly more than half of the Republicans are actually deranged.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,729

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    22 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    19.5 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Big drift for Rishi, was sitting around 15 for what felt like ages
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,243
    Chris said:

    Judging by those figures, not much scope for any of the favourite last refuges of the Tories, including flag-waving, drum-beating and xenophobia.

    No, but they’ll wave flags, beat drums and hate others anyway. It’s what they do.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,139
    Truss hasn't even won yet, and already Tory MPs are discussing replacing her with BoZo

    Not saying the Tories view the job of Prime Minister as the party’s personal plaything, but …

    From @ShippersUnbound’s Sunday Times long read https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liz-trusss-biggest-battle-will-be-with-her-own-party-suffering-sellers-remorse-over-boris-johnson-jt6jlmwhk https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1563769140321599490/photo/1


  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,243
    Scott_xP said:

    Truss hasn't even won yet, and already Tory MPs are discussing replacing her with BoZo

    Not saying the Tories view the job of Prime Minister as the party’s personal plaything, but …

    From @ShippersUnbound’s Sunday Times long read https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liz-trusss-biggest-battle-will-be-with-her-own-party-suffering-sellers-remorse-over-boris-johnson-jt6jlmwhk https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1563769140321599490/photo/1


    They have a death wish.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    Scott_xP said:

    Truss hasn't even won yet, and already Tory MPs are discussing replacing her with BoZo

    Not saying the Tories view the job of Prime Minister as the party’s personal plaything, but …

    From @ShippersUnbound’s Sunday Times long read https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liz-trusss-biggest-battle-will-be-with-her-own-party-suffering-sellers-remorse-over-boris-johnson-jt6jlmwhk https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1563769140321599490/photo/1


    Johnson will not stand again, because he'd lose badly and that will damage his mystique. He will spend years saying he could have won another general election but the party stabbed him in the back, and he didn't want to help them, etc. etc.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,919
    Scott_xP said:

    Truss hasn't even won yet, and already Tory MPs are discussing replacing her with BoZo

    Not saying the Tories view the job of Prime Minister as the party’s personal plaything, but …

    From @ShippersUnbound’s Sunday Times long read https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liz-trusss-biggest-battle-will-be-with-her-own-party-suffering-sellers-remorse-over-boris-johnson-jt6jlmwhk https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1563769140321599490/photo/1


    As our current PM has shown in the past it is so easy for journalists to make this stuff up. Are the MPs really that stupid and self obsessed? Probably but there are other explanations available too.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,243
    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,880

    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/

    The difference between England and Scotland being that, in England one has to go to the beach to get governed in crap, whereas in Scotland it’s in all of the streets?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947
    edited August 28

    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/

    Used to be bog standard (so to speak) in the 1950s and 1960s when I paddled and swam in the Lothian coastal waters. Young people today don't know they are born, put hair on chest or at least immune system, etc etc.

    (But the standards today are, very rightly, higher. So holidaymakers may be de-turd, quite undertstandably.)
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,243
    Sandpit said:

    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/

    The difference between England and Scotland being that, in England one has to go to the beach to get governed in crap, whereas in Scotland it’s in all of the streets?
    Yeah, that famous jock metropolis:

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1661008/london-news-newham-bin-strike-latest/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947
    Sandpit said:

    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/

    The difference between England and Scotland being that, in England one has to go to the beach to get governed in crap, whereas in Scotland it’s in all of the streets?

    Only Edinburgh is getting the crap - and it's largely because of the Festival, as it always is: just that it normally gets cleared off 24 hours a day. It's been targeted to make a point.

    The other strikes elsewhere are much briefer. ATM we'll lose one collection of some kinds of bin, and that's simply cos we live where we do.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,424

    Scott_xP said:

    Truss hasn't even won yet, and already Tory MPs are discussing replacing her with BoZo

    Not saying the Tories view the job of Prime Minister as the party’s personal plaything, but …

    From @ShippersUnbound’s Sunday Times long read https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liz-trusss-biggest-battle-will-be-with-her-own-party-suffering-sellers-remorse-over-boris-johnson-jt6jlmwhk https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1563769140321599490/photo/1


    They have a death wish.
    Their ideation began when they decided every policy had to be fine tuned to appeal to the decaying pleasure centres of poorly educated, septugenarian white men.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 7,804
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Truss hasn't even won yet, and already Tory MPs are discussing replacing her with BoZo

    Not saying the Tories view the job of Prime Minister as the party’s personal plaything, but …

    From @ShippersUnbound’s Sunday Times long read https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liz-trusss-biggest-battle-will-be-with-her-own-party-suffering-sellers-remorse-over-boris-johnson-jt6jlmwhk https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1563769140321599490/photo/1


    Johnson will not stand again, because he'd lose badly and that will damage his mystique. He will spend years saying he could have won another general election but the party stabbed him in the back, and he didn't want to help them, etc. etc.
    In a way, that's what's so dangerous.

    It's not realistic for him to return. It's not that realistic for the Conservatives to VONC Truss this side of a General Election.

    However, the polling that's out there implies that the party would happily have him back in a heartbeat, and Team Truss has happily stoked the "Borwis Was Wobbed" meme, because they need the votes.

    It's not a stable situation. Thatcher Over The Water was a bad enough problem for the Conservatives, and she was obviously past it and had accepted (at some level) her defeat.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,880
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/

    The difference between England and Scotland being that, in England one has to go to the beach to get governed in crap, whereas in Scotland it’s in all of the streets?

    Only Edinburgh is getting the crap - and it's largely because of the Festival, as it always is: just that it normally gets cleared off 24 hours a day. It's been targeted to make a point.

    The other strikes elsewhere are much briefer. ATM we'll lose one collection of some kinds of bin, and that's simply cos we live where we do.
    The crap in Cornwall was a one-off too, as a result of the wastewater system being temporarily overwhelmed by rains a couple of weeks ago.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,216
    I suspect there's an element of wishful thinking about some of these comments. One thing the Tories do well is to win on a regular basis. Wokeism is not a great vote-winner so it can safely be left to be amusing when it' becomes extreme. Being civil is one thing, but some on the left can't stop themselves from bigging it up, and it becomes competitive.

    Once Liz 'gottle of geer' Truss wins, she'll revert to a somewhat boring political functionary who will leave the sillier elements of wokery to the loons who will battle to be the wokest. It will add to the gaiety of life if nothing else.



  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/

    The difference between England and Scotland being that, in England one has to go to the beach to get governed in crap, whereas in Scotland it’s in all of the streets?

    Only Edinburgh is getting the crap - and it's largely because of the Festival, as it always is: just that it normally gets cleared off 24 hours a day. It's been targeted to make a point.

    The other strikes elsewhere are much briefer. ATM we'll lose one collection of some kinds of bin, and that's simply cos we live where we do.
    The crap in Cornwall was a one-off too, as a result of the wastewater system being temporarily overwhelmed by rains a couple of weeks ago.
    Not really a one off - it's a regular (so to speak) problem all over the UK, though localised. Just not so obvious in the drought till the heavy rains came.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,294
    edited August 28
    If any PBer wants the url to make a purchase pm me, I promise everything will be kept discreet.


  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,200
    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,216
    Mr Ace,

    As a slightly better educated septugenarian white man my pleasure centres are occasionally tickled by the antics of competitive wokies. Long may they exist. But expecting a backlash against the backlash is the height of optimism. There's always someone who will insist on their purity of wokery being aired.

    Extinction Rebellion can be relied upon to do that. Fossil fuels must never be used again. Nuclear power is Satan's breath. I look up at my solar panels now celebrating their eleventh birthday, and smile gently. This beats nailing my head to a coffee table.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,039
    edited August 28
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/

    The difference between England and Scotland being that, in England one has to go to the beach to get governed in crap, whereas in Scotland it’s in all of the streets?

    Only Edinburgh is getting the crap - and it's largely because of the Festival, as it always is: just that it normally gets cleared off 24 hours a day. It's been targeted to make a point.

    The other strikes elsewhere are much briefer. ATM we'll lose one collection of some kinds of bin, and that's simply cos we live where we do.
    The crap in Cornwall was a one-off too, as a result of the wastewater system being temporarily overwhelmed by rains a couple of weeks ago.
    Not really a one off - it's a regular (so to speak) problem all over the UK, though localised. Just not so obvious in the drought till the heavy rains came.
    Good morning

    It is happening here in Wales

    https://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/20774176.yet-another-top-pembrokeshire-beach-issued-raw-sewage-warning/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,880
    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    Some of the transgender stuff is definitely starting to cross over into child abuse, which is why it’s such a controversial subject.

    The political problem in the UK, watching from afar, is more one of inaction against the creeping spread of the wokery around the public sector, especially the escalating cost of the thousands of trainers and officers pushing the agenda. When the Home Office is hiring diversity managers, you can bet that the mandarins are doing their best to keep this from Ms Patel. It’s another symptom of the growing lack of control that ministers actually have over the departments they lead.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,094
    It is simple.

    Either Truss announces a massive package to cut the energy bills of most of the country or her government is over before it even begins.

    She'll lame duck until Jan 2025 when they will be wiped out.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,254
    My wife has done 3 back to back Yougov surveys which frankly read like economics papers. What should be done about inflation, whose fault is it, what should the government be doing about the economy, what taxes should be cut, what about interest rates, on and on, she describes it as relentless. I wonder who all this is for. Its a bit late for the Tory leadership election.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 2,004

    It is simple.

    Either Truss announces a massive package to cut the energy bills of most of the country or her government is over before it even begins.

    She'll lame duck until Jan 2025 when they will be wiped out.

    That is absolutely correct and is the priority. Not tinkering with
    NI or general VAT.

    It's the energy Liz! Sort it out!!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,294
    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    You mean wokeism hasn’t been linked to child abuse by the revelation of a network of powerful libs indulging in Satanic child sacrifice and paedophilia based in the basement of a Washington pizza parlour?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644
    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    Some of the transgender stuff is definitely starting to cross over into child abuse, which is why it’s such a controversial subject.

    The political problem in the UK, watching from afar, is more one of inaction against the creeping spread of the wokery around the public sector, especially the escalating cost of the thousands of trainers and officers pushing the agenda. When the Home Office is hiring diversity managers, you can bet that the mandarins are doing their best to keep this from Ms Patel. It’s another symptom of the growing lack of control that ministers actually have over the departments they lead.
    The Tories have been in government for 12 years. If they’re going to run on “We can’t control what our civil servants do”, they are going to look very stupid.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,387

    It is simple.

    Either Truss announces a massive package to cut the energy bills of most of the country or her government is over before it even begins.

    She'll lame duck until Jan 2025 when they will be wiped out.

    Yep - she will have to do it, she has no other choice. The issue now is how long it takes her to realise this. The longer she waits the less political capital she will get from what she does do.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,478
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/

    The difference between England and Scotland being that, in England one has to go to the beach to get governed in crap, whereas in Scotland it’s in all of the streets?

    Only Edinburgh is getting the crap - and it's largely because of the Festival, as it always is: just that it normally gets cleared off 24 hours a day. It's been targeted to make a point.

    The other strikes elsewhere are much briefer. ATM we'll lose one collection of some kinds of bin, and that's simply cos we live where we do.
    The large and growing piles of bagged dogshit around bins in Edinburgh's local parks are nothing to do with the Festival. Hopefully a deal will be reached soon.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,243
    DavidL said:

    My wife has done 3 back to back Yougov surveys which frankly read like economics papers. What should be done about inflation, whose fault is it, what should the government be doing about the economy, what taxes should be cut, what about interest rates, on and on, she describes it as relentless. I wonder who all this is for. Its a bit late for the Tory leadership election.

    The Liberal Democrats are preparing for government.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,039

    It is simple.

    Either Truss announces a massive package to cut the energy bills of most of the country or her government is over before it even begins.

    She'll lame duck until Jan 2025 when they will be wiped out.

    If you check you will find I have been saying this for some time now

    The media and this forum are picking bits of announcement out and attacking them, when if you read today's newspapers Truss is looking at not only helping with the domestic energy bills but more widely at helping businesses through this tsunami of seriously bad economic news

    I have supported Truss in not going into detail for exactly what is happening now, and urge everyone to wait a couple weeks to learn of the package in the whole

    The suggestion to reduce vat from 20% to 15% is one of the measures that will help business and reduce the inflation rate but is costly at 38 billion. It is also interesting that it is supported by Gordon Brown

    There is no doubt no peacetime new PM has faced the prospect of being condemned within weeks of taking office, but by the end of September we may have a good idea if she has survived or it is over
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947

    It is simple.

    Either Truss announces a massive package to cut the energy bills of most of the country or her government is over before it even begins.

    She'll lame duck until Jan 2025 when they will be wiped out.

    Yep - she will have to do it, she has no other choice. The issue now is how long it takes her to realise this. The longer she waits the less political capital she will get from what she does do.

    Struck by the evidence adduced on PB over the last day or two for the Tory Party members being positively opposed to that policy - whining about pampering the layabout young who never saw rationing, those who didn't save what like I did, spaffed all their money on avocados and modern houses, don't want our inheritances affected by a penny, etc. So not just a matter of her doing nothing: she's gone in the wrong direction, in order to pander to that. But the more suspicion there will be in the wider populace and the more she - and the party - have already lost, as you say.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Truss hasn't even won yet, and already Tory MPs are discussing replacing her with BoZo

    Not saying the Tories view the job of Prime Minister as the party’s personal plaything, but …

    From @ShippersUnbound’s Sunday Times long read https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liz-trusss-biggest-battle-will-be-with-her-own-party-suffering-sellers-remorse-over-boris-johnson-jt6jlmwhk https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1563769140321599490/photo/1


    Johnson will not stand again, because he'd lose badly and that will damage his mystique. He will spend years saying he could have won another general election but the party stabbed him in the back, and he didn't want to help them, etc. etc.
    I am not so sure.

    There is a paywalled article in the i, so I won't embed that comments "Johnson is a lucky bugger" (not literally I am sure) in that none of the CoL crisis is being attributed to him personally, despite the Conservative Party taking a large percentage of the blame.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,243
    I have a guilty secret:

    The Rest is Politics podcast has become compulsory listening
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,478

    If any PBer wants the url to make a purchase pm me, I promise everything will be kept discreet.


    No Johnson figure to make a pair?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,216
    BoJo is still around like a fading fart that no one wants to talk about. It means the couple of no-marks battling for the leadership have no chance to do anything constrictive for another fortnight. Even in his leaving, Boris is damaging the Tories.

    But I have a genuine question. When did it become the governments' job to protect everyone from any inflationary spikes? This is a new one on me. As a boomer, I never expected to receive shed loads of cash as my right. I won't complain and this doesn't make me hanker back for the fifties.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/

    The difference between England and Scotland being that, in England one has to go to the beach to get governed in crap, whereas in Scotland it’s in all of the streets?

    Only Edinburgh is getting the crap - and it's largely because of the Festival, as it always is: just that it normally gets cleared off 24 hours a day. It's been targeted to make a point.

    The other strikes elsewhere are much briefer. ATM we'll lose one collection of some kinds of bin, and that's simply cos we live where we do.
    The large and growing piles of bagged dogshit around bins in Edinburgh's local parks are nothing to do with the Festival. Hopefully a deal will be reached soon.
    Quite so. I did say 'largely'. But it's Festival central that has been photographed in the media.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947
    CD13 said:

    BoJo is still around like a fading fart that no one wants to talk about. It means the couple of no-marks battling for the leadership have no chance to do anything constrictive for another fortnight. Even in his leaving, Boris is damaging the Tories.

    But I have a genuine question. When did it become the governments' job to protect everyone from any inflationary spikes? This is a new one on me. As a boomer, I never expected to receive shed loads of cash as my right. I won't complain and this doesn't make me hanker back for the fifties.

    (a) when the Tories became dependent on the State Pensioner vote?

    (b) there is a difference between the permanent effect of inflation, and a short term increase in energy bills, the latter being what is causing the grief at present (and of course also an increase in CPI and RPI inflation). The general assumption seems to be that prices will go down, so an element of deflation.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,478
    CD13 said:

    BoJo is still around like a fading fart that no one wants to talk about. It means the couple of no-marks battling for the leadership have no chance to do anything constrictive for another fortnight. Even in his leaving, Boris is damaging the Tories.

    But I have a genuine question. When did it become the governments' job to protect everyone from any inflationary spikes? This is a new one on me. As a boomer, I never expected to receive shed loads of cash as my right. I won't complain and this doesn't make me hanker back for the fifties.

    It was the government's choice back in the spring to take on this responsibility, by announcing its intervention then. I did say it was a bad idea, because it meant they would be responsible for all future price rises.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Truss hasn't even won yet, and already Tory MPs are discussing replacing her with BoZo

    Not saying the Tories view the job of Prime Minister as the party’s personal plaything, but …

    From @ShippersUnbound’s Sunday Times long read https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liz-trusss-biggest-battle-will-be-with-her-own-party-suffering-sellers-remorse-over-boris-johnson-jt6jlmwhk https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1563769140321599490/photo/1


    Johnson will not stand again, because he'd lose badly and that will damage his mystique. He will spend years saying he could have won another general election but the party stabbed him in the back, and he didn't want to help them, etc. etc.
    I am not so sure.

    There is a paywalled article in the i, so I won't embed that comments "Johnson is a lucky bugger" (not literally I am sure) in that none of the CoL crisis is being attributed to him personally, despite the Conservative Party taking a large percentage of the blame.
    Hmm, wonder if it is coincidence he is currently keeping the sort of high profile one would get from a flatworm on a mudflat.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644
    CD13 said:

    BoJo is still around like a fading fart that no one wants to talk about. It means the couple of no-marks battling for the leadership have no chance to do anything constrictive for another fortnight. Even in his leaving, Boris is damaging the Tories.

    But I have a genuine question. When did it become the governments' job to protect everyone from any inflationary spikes? This is a new one on me. As a boomer, I never expected to receive shed loads of cash as my right. I won't complain and this doesn't make me hanker back for the fifties.

    Criticising Labour’s record on inflation was a big part of the Tories’ 1970 election win, wasn’t it?

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,480

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/

    The difference between England and Scotland being that, in England one has to go to the beach to get governed in crap, whereas in Scotland it’s in all of the streets?

    Only Edinburgh is getting the crap - and it's largely because of the Festival, as it always is: just that it normally gets cleared off 24 hours a day. It's been targeted to make a point.

    The other strikes elsewhere are much briefer. ATM we'll lose one collection of some kinds of bin, and that's simply cos we live where we do.
    The crap in Cornwall was a one-off too, as a result of the wastewater system being temporarily overwhelmed by rains a couple of weeks ago.
    Not really a one off - it's a regular (so to speak) problem all over the UK, though localised. Just not so obvious in the drought till the heavy rains came.
    Good morning

    It is happening here in Wales

    https://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/20774176.yet-another-top-pembrokeshire-beach-issued-raw-sewage-warning/
    On the Isle of Wight too.

    https://twitter.com/HugoSAS/status/1563524046204985345?t=sGzhH3hyaxS7ZtlCAL6-4A&s=19

    Scooters everywhere for the Bank Holiday Rally:


  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,424

    If any PBer wants the url to make a purchase pm me, I promise everything will be kept discreet.


    No Johnson figure to make a pair?
    Yes. Comes with bonus Carrie and Dom figures.


  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    Some of the transgender stuff is definitely starting to cross over into child abuse, which is why it’s such a controversial subject.

    The political problem in the UK, watching from afar, is more one of inaction against the creeping spread of the wokery around the public sector, especially the escalating cost of the thousands of trainers and officers pushing the agenda. When the Home Office is hiring diversity managers, you can bet that the mandarins are doing their best to keep this from Ms Patel. It’s another symptom of the growing lack of control that ministers actually have over the departments they lead.
    Blaming child abuse on "the woke" is an interesting diversion. Jimmy Savile and Gary Glitter didn't look particularly woke to me. Correct me if I am wrong, but there are broader societal issues leading to child abuse.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,294
    There seems to be a weird attraction between the more extreme ends of Unionism and Holocaust deniers. Can the BBC carry on showing repeats of Oliver’s copious past output or will he be Jimmy Saviled?




  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    Some of the transgender stuff is definitely starting to cross over into child abuse, which is why it’s such a controversial subject.

    The political problem in the UK, watching from afar, is more one of inaction against the creeping spread of the wokery around the public sector, especially the escalating cost of the thousands of trainers and officers pushing the agenda. When the Home Office is hiring diversity managers, you can bet that the mandarins are doing their best to keep this from Ms Patel. It’s another symptom of the growing lack of control that ministers actually have over the departments they lead.
    Blaming child abuse on "the woke" is an interesting diversion. Jimmy Savile and Gary Glitter didn't look particularly woke to me. Correct me if I am wrong, but there are broader societal issues leading to child abuse.
    Wouldn't the attacks on Harriet Harman and the NCCL, based on the activities of the PIE, qualify yas an examplke of that strategy, admittedly before wokery was called wokery?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    How to destroy a tourist brand:

    CNN Travel:

    Sewage-covered beaches risk turning England into the 'dirty man of Europe'

    Near the southwest tip of England, where the region of Cornwall meets the Atlantic, is Longrock Beach.

    It's part of the mythical coastline around Penzance -- a liminal space where the sky meets the ocean, dotted with prehistoric monuments. Off the shore from Longrock, an island topped by a fairytale castle rises up from the water: St. Michael's Mount.

    Longrock is idyllic -- safe and family friendly, with shallow water, and "favored with Penzance locals," according to the tourist board.

    Last week it was rather less so. Longrock was one of 100 beaches around England which had raw sewage disgorged into the sea during the peak summer period.

    … As Whitty co-wrote in his summer report: "Nobody wants a child to ingest human faeces."

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/uk-beaches-sewage-england/

    The difference between England and Scotland being that, in England one has to go to the beach to get governed in crap, whereas in Scotland it’s in all of the streets?

    Only Edinburgh is getting the crap - and it's largely because of the Festival, as it always is: just that it normally gets cleared off 24 hours a day. It's been targeted to make a point.

    The other strikes elsewhere are much briefer. ATM we'll lose one collection of some kinds of bin, and that's simply cos we live where we do.
    The crap in Cornwall was a one-off too, as a result of the wastewater system being temporarily overwhelmed by rains a couple of weeks ago.
    Not really a one off - it's a regular (so to speak) problem all over the UK, though localised. Just not so obvious in the drought till the heavy rains came.
    Good morning

    It is happening here in Wales

    https://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/20774176.yet-another-top-pembrokeshire-beach-issued-raw-sewage-warning/
    On the Isle of Wight too.

    https://twitter.com/HugoSAS/status/1563524046204985345?t=sGzhH3hyaxS7ZtlCAL6-4A&s=19

    Scooters everywhere for the Bank Holiday Rally:


    That's a bit unkind about the chaps with RAF Type D roundels painted on their anoraks. .
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,919
    CD13 said:

    BoJo is still around like a fading fart that no one wants to talk about. It means the couple of no-marks battling for the leadership have no chance to do anything constrictive for another fortnight. Even in his leaving, Boris is damaging the Tories.

    But I have a genuine question. When did it become the governments' job to protect everyone from any inflationary spikes? This is a new one on me. As a boomer, I never expected to receive shed loads of cash as my right. I won't complain and this doesn't make me hanker back for the fifties.

    If the government offers no support the following happens:

    Millions of people cant pay their bills.
    Other millions who just about can pay decide to join a payment strike in solidarity.
    Courts already have a multi year backlog so are of no use enforcing payments (even with no backlog wouldn't help with the can't pays.
    The energy suppliers legally have to continue supplying energy to people who are not paying them for the energy.
    The energy suppliers cannot afford to pay the companies they buy from so go bankrupt.
    The remaining energy suppliers are then told to take on the debts of the bankrupt suppliers and go bust themselves.
    The country has no energy suppliers and we join the Taliban in trying to create a pre industrial revolution society.

    At some point in the chain the government simply has to step in. It may as well get ahead of the problems!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947

    There seems to be a weird attraction between the more extreme ends of Unionism and Holocaust deniers. Can the BBC carry on showing repeats of Oliver’s copious past output or will he be Jimmy Saviled?




    What's he been saying about the essential juices of the Britannic Nation?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,216
    "Criticising Labour’s record on inflation was a big part of the Tories’ 1970 election win, wasn’t it?"

    It was and I remeber it well. I voted for 'arold' but the Tories succeeded in painting him as responsible for the inflation. His gnomes of Zurich quote was used against him. But no one expected him to empty the treasury to save them from the effects.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,200
    edited August 28
    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    Some of the transgender stuff is definitely starting to cross over into child abuse, which is why it’s such a controversial subject.

    The political problem in the UK, watching from afar, is more one of inaction against the creeping spread of the wokery around the public sector, especially the escalating cost of the thousands of trainers and officers pushing the agenda. When the Home Office is hiring diversity managers, you can bet that the mandarins are doing their best to keep this from Ms Patel. It’s another symptom of the growing lack of control that ministers actually have over the departments they lead.
    On your second point; the tories went along with all this (the 'equalities/anti discrimination' agenda - stonewall for instance) for nearly a decade, and let it embed itself in its institutions, including the civil service, without really thinking about where it would lead. Indeed it was part of the modernisation of the Conservative Party. It was just seen as something tokenistic. Things that could be 'put back in to the box' if they caused any significant problems in the real world. This was obviously an error of judgement and fundamental misreading of the situation. So on this, as in many areas of policy, they are now in the position of complaining about 'problems' that they themselves created. It isn't convincing.

    The tories have a large majority in Parliament and can pass whatever laws they want. Instead they try and find new targets to blame, the latest one they are pushing is the ECHR. But many of the proponents of the anti woke crusade, IE Lawrence Fox, actually make appeals to the ECHR in their battles against 'woke tyranny'. For instance, if you look at fair cop, who are about fighting 'wokedom' in the police forces, they rely on human rights and, explictly, on the ECHR.

    https://www.faircop.org.uk/the-law/

    So the tory position on this subject is unfortunately one of incompetence and contradictions that will (in my view) only get resolved by a period in opposition.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    Some of the transgender stuff is definitely starting to cross over into child abuse, which is why it’s such a controversial subject.

    The political problem in the UK, watching from afar, is more one of inaction against the creeping spread of the wokery around the public sector, especially the escalating cost of the thousands of trainers and officers pushing the agenda. When the Home Office is hiring diversity managers, you can bet that the mandarins are doing their best to keep this from Ms Patel. It’s another symptom of the growing lack of control that ministers actually have over the departments they lead.
    The Tories have been in government for 12 years. If they’re going to run on “We can’t control what our civil servants do”, they are going to look very stupid.
    Why?

    I thought it was the very premise of the documentary series 'Yes, Minster' and 'Yes, Prime Minister'

    Which I have always found -- in the instances when the series came close to spheres of activity I know well --- very accurate.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,254

    DavidL said:

    My wife has done 3 back to back Yougov surveys which frankly read like economics papers. What should be done about inflation, whose fault is it, what should the government be doing about the economy, what taxes should be cut, what about interest rates, on and on, she describes it as relentless. I wonder who all this is for. Its a bit late for the Tory leadership election.

    The Liberal Democrats are preparing for government.
    I wondered if SKS was still looking for ideas. He had one already this year which seemed to involve people poorer than me being asked to subsidise my heating bills at a quite unsustainable cost. He needs to cast his net a little wider.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,880

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    Some of the transgender stuff is definitely starting to cross over into child abuse, which is why it’s such a controversial subject.

    The political problem in the UK, watching from afar, is more one of inaction against the creeping spread of the wokery around the public sector, especially the escalating cost of the thousands of trainers and officers pushing the agenda. When the Home Office is hiring diversity managers, you can bet that the mandarins are doing their best to keep this from Ms Patel. It’s another symptom of the growing lack of control that ministers actually have over the departments they lead.
    Blaming child abuse on "the woke" is an interesting diversion. Jimmy Savile and Gary Glitter didn't look particularly woke to me. Correct me if I am wrong, but there are broader societal issues leading to child abuse.
    No-one is blaming [all] child absue on “the woke”.

    I said that elements of the transgender stuff is straying into child abuse. There have also been plenty of record stories of what appears to be systemic child abuse either ignored or covered up by authorities for political and cultural reasons.

    Most child abuse, it goes without saying, occurs in the home or by people known to the child.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,480

    Mr. Observer, woke is when identity politics gets power. It demands not merely acceptance but that others agree with it (see the kneeling nonsense of BLM). It judges people by their skin colour and sex (see Rings of Power and the 'dwarf of colour' nonsense). It treats women and non-white people as inherently oppressed while happily being openly bigoted against white men (see RAF hiring practices, or the approach of the police to Rotherham and other such scandals). And if you oppose it you get labelled an -ist or -phobe (the Twitter equivalent of a school bully demanding you do something or 'you're gay').

    In short, woke is opposed to equality. It embraces racism and sexism, but those are 'ok' because they're aimed at whites and men and the vaguely defined 'system' (contrary to laws which make it illegal to pay people differently based on demographics) is somehow tilted in their favour*.

    It also has the deranged view that children too young to drink, have sex, have a job, or vote are mature enough to decide they want to change their sex. Even though this can lead to permanent sterilisation.

    There's also the innumerate nonsense propagated by zealots and believed by credulous fools of the gender pay gap, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how numbers work (or, indeed, the law).

    Last but not least, it denies biological reality (the male advantage in terms of strength) to pretend that men who have become women can compete on a level playing field with those who actually have female genetics.


    *It is statistically beneficial to be white rather than black in the justice system when it comes to sentencing. It's also useful to be female rather than male, attractive rather than ugly, and rich rather than poor. The sex difference is the biggest, I believe.

    Paper tigers and straw men.

    Woke is just about recognising structural prejudices in society.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,294
    Carnyx said:

    There seems to be a weird attraction between the more extreme ends of Unionism and Holocaust deniers. Can the BBC carry on showing repeats of Oliver’s copious past output or will he be Jimmy Saviled?




    What's he been saying about the essential juices of the Britannic Nation?
    In a rare fit of self awareness GB News has deleted the tweet with a link to the interview so I can’t say what conclusions were drawn by these titans of anti wokery. On the visual evidence I’d say Charles Manson and Mullet Boy have both made a significant contribution to putting women off procreating.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,662
    Dr. Foxy, which race and sex has been subjected to discriminatory hiring practices? Confirmed in the RAF, sought after by the Met by Cressida Dick?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,387

    Mr. Observer, woke is when identity politics gets power. It demands not merely acceptance but that others agree with it (see the kneeling nonsense of BLM). It judges people by their skin colour and sex (see Rings of Power and the 'dwarf of colour' nonsense). It treats women and non-white people as inherently oppressed while happily being openly bigoted against white men (see RAF hiring practices, or the approach of the police to Rotherham and other such scandals). And if you oppose it you get labelled an -ist or -phobe (the Twitter equivalent of a school bully demanding you do something or 'you're gay').

    In short, woke is opposed to equality. It embraces racism and sexism, but those are 'ok' because they're aimed at whites and men and the vaguely defined 'system' (contrary to laws which make it illegal to pay people differently based on demographics) is somehow tilted in their favour*.

    It also has the deranged view that children too young to drink, have sex, have a job, or vote are mature enough to decide they want to change their sex. Even though this can lead to permanent sterilisation.

    There's also the innumerate nonsense propagated by zealots and believed by credulous fools of the gender pay gap, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how numbers work (or, indeed, the law).

    Last but not least, it denies biological reality (the male advantage in terms of strength) to pretend that men who have become women can compete on a level playing field with those who actually have female genetics.


    *It is statistically beneficial to be white rather than black in the justice system when it comes to sentencing. It's also useful to be female rather than male, attractive rather than ugly, and rich rather than poor. The sex difference is the biggest, I believe.

    Yes, woke is stuff you do not like and which makes you feel uncomfortable. The problem with that is that people dislike different things and different things make them uncomfortable.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,651
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    My wife has done 3 back to back Yougov surveys which frankly read like economics papers. What should be done about inflation, whose fault is it, what should the government be doing about the economy, what taxes should be cut, what about interest rates, on and on, she describes it as relentless. I wonder who all this is for. Its a bit late for the Tory leadership election.

    The Liberal Democrats are preparing for government.
    I wondered if SKS was still looking for ideas. He had one already this year which seemed to involve people poorer than me being asked to subsidise my heating bills at a quite unsustainable cost. He needs to cast his net a little wider.
    Lol. That was such a terrible idea that it triggered a further increase in the Labour lead, and it will soon be pinched by the Tories as they struggle to think of anything better.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,478
    edited August 28

    Mr. Observer, woke is when identity politics gets power. It demands not merely acceptance but that others agree with it (see the kneeling nonsense of BLM). It judges people by their skin colour and sex (see Rings of Power and the 'dwarf of colour' nonsense). It treats women and non-white people as inherently oppressed while happily being openly bigoted against white men (see RAF hiring practices, or the approach of the police to Rotherham and other such scandals). And if you oppose it you get labelled an -ist or -phobe (the Twitter equivalent of a school bully demanding you do something or 'you're gay').
    ....
    Snip
    ....

    What is the problem with having non-white actors play Dwarf roles?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,424
    edited August 28

    Dr. Foxy, which race and sex has been subjected to discriminatory hiring practices? Confirmed in the RAF, sought after by the Met by Cressida Dick?

    The one that is massively over-represented at all levels of the RAF and has enjoyed the benefit of overwhelming structural preference since the organisation was founded.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947
    Foxy said:

    Mr. Observer, woke is when identity politics gets power. It demands not merely acceptance but that others agree with it (see the kneeling nonsense of BLM). It judges people by their skin colour and sex (see Rings of Power and the 'dwarf of colour' nonsense). It treats women and non-white people as inherently oppressed while happily being openly bigoted against white men (see RAF hiring practices, or the approach of the police to Rotherham and other such scandals). And if you oppose it you get labelled an -ist or -phobe (the Twitter equivalent of a school bully demanding you do something or 'you're gay').

    In short, woke is opposed to equality. It embraces racism and sexism, but those are 'ok' because they're aimed at whites and men and the vaguely defined 'system' (contrary to laws which make it illegal to pay people differently based on demographics) is somehow tilted in their favour*.

    It also has the deranged view that children too young to drink, have sex, have a job, or vote are mature enough to decide they want to change their sex. Even though this can lead to permanent sterilisation.

    There's also the innumerate nonsense propagated by zealots and believed by credulous fools of the gender pay gap, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how numbers work (or, indeed, the law).

    Last but not least, it denies biological reality (the male advantage in terms of strength) to pretend that men who have become women can compete on a level playing field with those who actually have female genetics.


    *It is statistically beneficial to be white rather than black in the justice system when it comes to sentencing. It's also useful to be female rather than male, attractive rather than ugly, and rich rather than poor. The sex difference is the biggest, I believe.

    Paper tigers and straw men.

    Woke is just about recognising structural prejudices in society.
    Talking about straw tigers, the children sterilisation story has evolved since my post of yesterday: as I suggested, it's bollocks. The worst interpretation possible was being placed by Wokehunters here and elsewhere on a front of house foulup (badly formated webpage stating age range of patients, then listing work done, without making it clear that not all the former applies to the latter - plainly they don't do fertility treatment on 6 month olds, either, though that is also a logical conclusion from the data, while the front of house people probably used that very webpage when talking to a trick caller).

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/08/26/childrens-national-hospital-trans-hysterectomies/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,919
    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    Some of the transgender stuff is definitely starting to cross over into child abuse, which is why it’s such a controversial subject.

    The political problem in the UK, watching from afar, is more one of inaction against the creeping spread of the wokery around the public sector, especially the escalating cost of the thousands of trainers and officers pushing the agenda. When the Home Office is hiring diversity managers, you can bet that the mandarins are doing their best to keep this from Ms Patel. It’s another symptom of the growing lack of control that ministers actually have over the departments they lead.
    On your second point; the tories went along with all this (the 'equalities/anti discrimination' agenda - stonewall for instance) for nearly a decade, and let it embed itself in its institutions, including the civil service, without really thinking about where it would lead. Indeed it was part of the modernisation of the Conservative Party. It was just seen as something tokenistic. Things that could be 'put back in to the box' if they caused any significant problems in the real world. This was obviously an error of judgement and fundamental misreading of the situation. So on this, as in many areas of policy, they are now in the position of complaining about 'problems' that they themselves created. It isn't convincing.

    The tories have a large majority in Parliament and can pass whatever laws they want. Instead they try and find new targets to blame, the latest one they are pushing is the ECHR. But many of the proponents of the anti woke crusade, IE Lawrence Fox, actually make appeals to the ECHR in their battles against 'woke tyranny'. For instance, if you look at fair cop, who are about fighting 'wokedom' in the police forces, they rely on human rights and, explictly, on the ECHR.

    https://www.faircop.org.uk/the-law/

    So the tory position on this subject is unfortunately one of incompetence and contradictions that will (in my view) only get resolved by a period in opposition.
    Hehe, yes the problem with the UK at the moment is that the police are way too woke. Lets all rail against that.....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,139

    It is simple.

    Either Truss announces a massive package to cut the energy bills of most of the country or her government is over before it even begins.

    She'll lame duck until Jan 2025 when they will be wiped out.

    Yep - she will have to do it, she has no other choice. The issue now is how long it takes her to realise this. The longer she waits the less political capital she will get from what she does do.

    Her other problem per Hodges in the Mail is who will get the credit when she finally does it.

    There is already grumbling that the team who got her this far is not up to actually running the government, so she will have to bring in other people
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,387
    Foxy said:

    Mr. Observer, woke is when identity politics gets power. It demands not merely acceptance but that others agree with it (see the kneeling nonsense of BLM). It judges people by their skin colour and sex (see Rings of Power and the 'dwarf of colour' nonsense). It treats women and non-white people as inherently oppressed while happily being openly bigoted against white men (see RAF hiring practices, or the approach of the police to Rotherham and other such scandals). And if you oppose it you get labelled an -ist or -phobe (the Twitter equivalent of a school bully demanding you do something or 'you're gay').

    In short, woke is opposed to equality. It embraces racism and sexism, but those are 'ok' because they're aimed at whites and men and the vaguely defined 'system' (contrary to laws which make it illegal to pay people differently based on demographics) is somehow tilted in their favour*.

    It also has the deranged view that children too young to drink, have sex, have a job, or vote are mature enough to decide they want to change their sex. Even though this can lead to permanent sterilisation.

    There's also the innumerate nonsense propagated by zealots and believed by credulous fools of the gender pay gap, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how numbers work (or, indeed, the law).

    Last but not least, it denies biological reality (the male advantage in terms of strength) to pretend that men who have become women can compete on a level playing field with those who actually have female genetics.


    *It is statistically beneficial to be white rather than black in the justice system when it comes to sentencing. It's also useful to be female rather than male, attractive rather than ugly, and rich rather than poor. The sex difference is the biggest, I believe.

    Paper tigers and straw men.

    Woke is just about recognising structural prejudices in society.

    I genuinely have no idea what woke means. I really don't.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,296
    Carnyx said:

    There seems to be a weird attraction between the more extreme ends of Unionism and Holocaust deniers. Can the BBC carry on showing repeats of Oliver’s copious past output or will he be Jimmy Saviled?




    What's he been saying about the essential juices of the Britannic Nation?
    What is it that drives pb's Scots Nats so crazy about Neil Oliver? For many of us he is just another television presenter we don't watch. I see from his Wikipedia page that he opposes Sindy but so do half the Scottish population. There is nothing there about the holocaust unless you count his going over the top on Covid.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,651

    Scott_xP said:

    Truss hasn't even won yet, and already Tory MPs are discussing replacing her with BoZo

    Not saying the Tories view the job of Prime Minister as the party’s personal plaything, but …

    From @ShippersUnbound’s Sunday Times long read https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liz-trusss-biggest-battle-will-be-with-her-own-party-suffering-sellers-remorse-over-boris-johnson-jt6jlmwhk https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1563769140321599490/photo/1


    They have a death wish.
    Bring it on!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    Some of the transgender stuff is definitely starting to cross over into child abuse, which is why it’s such a controversial subject.

    The political problem in the UK, watching from afar, is more one of inaction against the creeping spread of the wokery around the public sector, especially the escalating cost of the thousands of trainers and officers pushing the agenda. When the Home Office is hiring diversity managers, you can bet that the mandarins are doing their best to keep this from Ms Patel. It’s another symptom of the growing lack of control that ministers actually have over the departments they lead.
    Blaming child abuse on "the woke" is an interesting diversion. Jimmy Savile and Gary Glitter didn't look particularly woke to me. Correct me if I am wrong, but there are broader societal issues leading to child abuse.
    No-one is blaming [all] child absue on “the woke”.

    I said that elements of the transgender stuff is straying into child abuse. There have also been plenty of record stories of what appears to be systemic child abuse either ignored or covered up by authorities for political and cultural reasons.

    Most child abuse, it goes without saying, occurs in the home or by people known to the child.
    You live in a place where "wokery" is punished with an iron fist. Yet there is a great deal of anecdotal evidence to suggest some of the "great and the good" in your part of the World are involved in child abuse activities, and are protected because of their status (much like the West). When I travelled to Dubai and Qatar in the 1980s stories of self indulgence contrary to the teachings of the Koran were rife, particularly in the Kingdom.

    My point is that it is disingenuous to scapegoat 'liberals' when the illiberal are at it too.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,662
    Mr. Observer, yes, I am uncomfortable with racism and sexism, and won't discard that discomfort to appease an ideology of idiocy.

    Mr. Password, single father accurately describes Denethor, Theoden, and Elrond. And anyone who used that as the definition of those characters would be a cretin because, while accurate in itself, it utterly misses the point.

    "What's your main character trait?"
    "I am black. And a woman."

    It's absolutely tokenistic, ticking a diversity box and defining a role by a couple of demographics.

    Black dwarves may or may not work within the world of Tolkien (if the showrunners had more knowledge of the lore and less intensity for their own political views they would've just set it in Harad and had a majority of the cast as non-white humans, but there we are) but a skin colour and trouser contents do not make a character. Yet that is the metric by which some judge such things, and the great positive extolled in the PR.

    You might as well describe the Witch King of Angmar as an elderly man.

    Anyway, time for me to go for a wander. Have fun kids.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,387

    There seems to be a weird attraction between the more extreme ends of Unionism and Holocaust deniers. Can the BBC carry on showing repeats of Oliver’s copious past output or will he be Jimmy Saviled?




    Ah, the Truss-endorsed GBNews fearlessly taking on the "woke" by giving platforms to Holocaust deniers.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,296

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    22 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    19.5 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    22 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    23 Rishi Sunak 4%
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 7,804
    Foxy said:

    Mr. Observer, woke is when identity politics gets power. It demands not merely acceptance but that others agree with it (see the kneeling nonsense of BLM). It judges people by their skin colour and sex (see Rings of Power and the 'dwarf of colour' nonsense). It treats women and non-white people as inherently oppressed while happily being openly bigoted against white men (see RAF hiring practices, or the approach of the police to Rotherham and other such scandals). And if you oppose it you get labelled an -ist or -phobe (the Twitter equivalent of a school bully demanding you do something or 'you're gay').

    In short, woke is opposed to equality. It embraces racism and sexism, but those are 'ok' because they're aimed at whites and men and the vaguely defined 'system' (contrary to laws which make it illegal to pay people differently based on demographics) is somehow tilted in their favour*.

    It also has the deranged view that children too young to drink, have sex, have a job, or vote are mature enough to decide they want to change their sex. Even though this can lead to permanent sterilisation.

    There's also the innumerate nonsense propagated by zealots and believed by credulous fools of the gender pay gap, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how numbers work (or, indeed, the law).

    Last but not least, it denies biological reality (the male advantage in terms of strength) to pretend that men who have become women can compete on a level playing field with those who actually have female genetics.


    *It is statistically beneficial to be white rather than black in the justice system when it comes to sentencing. It's also useful to be female rather than male, attractive rather than ugly, and rich rather than poor. The sex difference is the biggest, I believe.

    Paper tigers and straw men.

    Woke is just about recognising structural prejudices in society.
    It's also about Adams's Law of Technology (anything invented after you are thirty is an abomination) applied to society.

    Every move to make society nicer (for want of a better word) has been loudly opposed beforehand. Sometimes because of genuine issues that need ironing out, but mostly because humans dislike change. And also, we don't like to have to note bits of nastiness that we have tolerated.

    The other thing that happens is that the passing of generational batons is difficult. The still vigorous don't like the idea of letting the younger take over. They're not ready, they'll do it wrong and... it hints at our incoming mortality.

    Much more comforting to poke fun at their foolishness.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,651

    Sadly OGH has learnt nothing from all those years prior to the EU referendum.

    He would come on here every month or so pointing out that people 'Didn't give a Monkeys' about the EU as an issue and it was pointless the Government being concerned about it. Then of course 2016 came along.

    Now although I am far less invested in this 'woke' issue (I am still waiting for someone to define it properly for me) I can see commentators making exactly the same mistake again using exactly the same reasoning. You act as if all these questions are either/or - you either have to be concerned about the CoL crisis or about Wokeism. It is an inability to comprehend that people can, contrary to what you might think, walk and chew gum at the same time.

    I have no idea where the woke issue is going because unlike the EU issue, beyond the most extreme examples which seem to be fairly few and far between, I don't understand the boundaries and the detailed concerns.

    But I do observe OGH making exactly the same argument that he made a decade ago over another subject he was sceptical about which leads me to believe he might be making exactly the same mistake when interpreting the views of the wider public and their ability to judge many issues at the same time.

    ... though the IPSOS unprompted poll is hard to argue with.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,294
    edited August 28

    Carnyx said:

    There seems to be a weird attraction between the more extreme ends of Unionism and Holocaust deniers. Can the BBC carry on showing repeats of Oliver’s copious past output or will he be Jimmy Saviled?




    What's he been saying about the essential juices of the Britannic Nation?
    What is it that drives pb's Scots Nats so crazy about Neil Oliver? For many of us he is just another television presenter we don't watch. I see from his Wikipedia page that he opposes Sindy but so do half the Scottish population. There is nothing there about the holocaust unless you count his going over the top on Covid.
    To channel Malc, he’s interviewing a Holocaust denier you turnip!

    Edit: sorry, Holocaust denier and antisemite.


  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947
    edited August 28

    Carnyx said:

    There seems to be a weird attraction between the more extreme ends of Unionism and Holocaust deniers. Can the BBC carry on showing repeats of Oliver’s copious past output or will he be Jimmy Saviled?




    What's he been saying about the essential juices of the Britannic Nation?
    In a rare fit of self awareness GB News has deleted the tweet with a link to the interview so I can’t say what conclusions were drawn by these titans of anti wokery. On the visual evidence I’d say Charles Manson and Mullet Boy have both made a significant contribution to putting women off procreating.
    Thanks. A little poking around brings up the news that someone is blaming the reduction of reproduction on covid vaccinations, but it would be unfair to conclude that that was what fuelled the meeting of minds in question on GBN without more evidence.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,139

    Sadly OGH has learnt nothing from all those years prior to the EU referendum.

    He would come on here every month or so pointing out that people 'Didn't give a Monkeys' about the EU as an issue and it was pointless the Government being concerned about it. Then of course 2016 came along.

    The mistake is to think the vote in 2016 had anything to do with the EU
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,947
    Beyond even the best of PB ...

    https://twitter.com/mrdanwalker/status/1563471267101278208

    "Fantastic response to Dogging For Treasure last night [...]"
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,296
    Foxy said:

    Mr. Observer, woke is when identity politics gets power. It demands not merely acceptance but that others agree with it (see the kneeling nonsense of BLM). It judges people by their skin colour and sex (see Rings of Power and the 'dwarf of colour' nonsense). It treats women and non-white people as inherently oppressed while happily being openly bigoted against white men (see RAF hiring practices, or the approach of the police to Rotherham and other such scandals). And if you oppose it you get labelled an -ist or -phobe (the Twitter equivalent of a school bully demanding you do something or 'you're gay').

    In short, woke is opposed to equality. It embraces racism and sexism, but those are 'ok' because they're aimed at whites and men and the vaguely defined 'system' (contrary to laws which make it illegal to pay people differently based on demographics) is somehow tilted in their favour*.

    It also has the deranged view that children too young to drink, have sex, have a job, or vote are mature enough to decide they want to change their sex. Even though this can lead to permanent sterilisation.

    There's also the innumerate nonsense propagated by zealots and believed by credulous fools of the gender pay gap, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how numbers work (or, indeed, the law).

    Last but not least, it denies biological reality (the male advantage in terms of strength) to pretend that men who have become women can compete on a level playing field with those who actually have female genetics.


    *It is statistically beneficial to be white rather than black in the justice system when it comes to sentencing. It's also useful to be female rather than male, attractive rather than ugly, and rich rather than poor. The sex difference is the biggest, I believe.

    Paper tigers and straw men.

    Woke is just about recognising structural prejudices in society.
    Paper tigers, straw men, a fundamental misunderstanding of the gender pay gap and a bizarre aversion to the quote button.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,892

    Sadly OGH has learnt nothing from all those years prior to the EU referendum.

    He would come on here every month or so pointing out that people 'Didn't give a Monkeys' about the EU as an issue and it was pointless the Government being concerned about it. Then of course 2016 came along.

    Now although I am far less invested in this 'woke' issue (I am still waiting for someone to define it properly for me) I can see commentators making exactly the same mistake again using exactly the same reasoning. You act as if all these questions are either/or - you either have to be concerned about the CoL crisis or about Wokeism. It is an inability to comprehend that people can, contrary to what you might think, walk and chew gum at the same time.

    I have no idea where the woke issue is going because unlike the EU issue, beyond the most extreme examples which seem to be fairly few and far between, I don't understand the boundaries and the detailed concerns.

    But I do observe OGH making exactly the same argument that he made a decade ago over another subject he was sceptical about which leads me to believe he might be making exactly the same mistake when interpreting the views of the wider public and their ability to judge many issues at the same time.

    I agree. I was going to make the same post. I don't think woke is an issue at all, but that doesn't mean the likes of Leon and others, who believe it is, can't make it one by keep banging on about it and that is what happened with the EU. A non issue becomes an issue.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,478

    Mr. Observer, yes, I am uncomfortable with racism and sexism, and won't discard that discomfort to appease an ideology of idiocy.

    Mr. Password, single father accurately describes Denethor, Theoden, and Elrond. And anyone who used that as the definition of those characters would be a cretin because, while accurate in itself, it utterly misses the point.

    "What's your main character trait?"
    "I am black. And a woman."

    It's absolutely tokenistic, ticking a diversity box and defining a role by a couple of demographics.

    Black dwarves may or may not work within the world of Tolkien (if the showrunners had more knowledge of the lore and less intensity for their own political views they would've just set it in Harad and had a majority of the cast as non-white humans, but there we are) but a skin colour and trouser contents do not make a character. Yet that is the metric by which some judge such things, and the great positive extolled in the PR.

    You might as well describe the Witch King of Angmar as an elderly man.

    Anyway, time for me to go for a wander. Have fun kids.

    There's been some criticism that the growth in medieval/fantasy TV fiction, and a strict interpretation on what is realistic for that setting, means that there is a shortage of roles for non-white actors. So it's a good thing to see non-white actors in such roles (though this isn't new, as the BBC's Merlin did it years ago, so I don't know why people would make a fuss about it).

    Provided it doesn't become a boring plot point in the actual show I don't see that it is a problem. I couldn't give a toss what people say in the PR, given it was a criticism of LotR is not surprising they mentioned it.
  • TresTres Posts: 1,348

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    Some of the transgender stuff is definitely starting to cross over into child abuse, which is why it’s such a controversial subject.

    The political problem in the UK, watching from afar, is more one of inaction against the creeping spread of the wokery around the public sector, especially the escalating cost of the thousands of trainers and officers pushing the agenda. When the Home Office is hiring diversity managers, you can bet that the mandarins are doing their best to keep this from Ms Patel. It’s another symptom of the growing lack of control that ministers actually have over the departments they lead.

    How many thousands of trainers and officers pushing woke agendas do you think that there are in the public sector? I genuinely have no idea. In our private sector company of 450 people we have an HR department of three. They spend all their time trying to hire and people in the business. Like offering work from home, a commitment to diversity is now a key element in attracting and retaining staff. What the Daily Mail would call wokery is just part and parcel of the battle for talent.

    And therein lies the problem. Woke has no definition. It basically means "stuff I don't like or which makes me feel uncomfortable". And because of that a harmless public sector HR project that, for example, talks about inclusivity in the workplace becomes just as "woke" and dangerous as allowing blokes to claim they are women so they can get into women only places.

    In my experience private sector 'wokeism' is being driven by the emergence of non stale/pale/male C-level leaders responding to the concerns of some elements of their workforce.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,493
    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    The emerging experience of the US is that point where "wokeism" becomes a significant political problem for the left and/or governing parties is where it becomes linked to child abuse. Until then it is a niche issue which most people are not bothered about.

    On the broader issue, I think that the tories will be more effective in their "war on woke" as the opposition party. If the 'wokeism' is seen as coming from a left wing government, then it can become something its opponents rally around in opposition. The fact is, that for all their claims to the contrary, they have been in government for 12 years and have themselves been responsible for a lot of the 'woke' agenda.

    Some of the transgender stuff is definitely starting to cross over into child abuse, which is why it’s such a controversial subject.

    The political problem in the UK, watching from afar, is more one of inaction against the creeping spread of the wokery around the public sector, especially the escalating cost of the thousands of trainers and officers pushing the agenda. When the Home Office is hiring diversity managers, you can bet that the mandarins are doing their best to keep this from Ms Patel. It’s another symptom of the growing lack of control that ministers actually have over the departments they lead.
    No, the political problem in the UK, watching from the UK, is that the Conservative Party has gone full HYUFD and now only does what it wants rather than what people need. People are being left to drown in a tidal wave of rising bills, and this government has gone AWOL. This country is literally falling apart, they are in charge and don't seem to have noticed.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 8,447
    Scott_xP said:

    Sadly OGH has learnt nothing from all those years prior to the EU referendum.

    He would come on here every month or so pointing out that people 'Didn't give a Monkeys' about the EU as an issue and it was pointless the Government being concerned about it. Then of course 2016 came along.

    The mistake is to think the vote in 2016 had anything to do with the EU
    Yes, all those remainer surrender-monkeys were simply scared to stand up for themselves! :)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 27,592
    edited August 28

    Sadly OGH has learnt nothing from all those years prior to the EU referendum.

    He would come on here every month or so pointing out that people 'Didn't give a Monkeys' about the EU as an issue and it was pointless the Government being concerned about it. Then of course 2016 came along.

    Now although I am far less invested in this 'woke' issue (I am still waiting for someone to define it properly for me) I can see commentators making exactly the same mistake again using exactly the same reasoning. You act as if all these questions are either/or - you either have to be concerned about the CoL crisis or about Wokeism. It is an inability to comprehend that people can, contrary to what you might think, walk and chew gum at the same time.

    I have no idea where the woke issue is going because unlike the EU issue, beyond the most extreme examples which seem to be fairly few and far between, I don't understand the boundaries and the detailed concerns.

    But I do observe OGH making exactly the same argument that he made a decade ago over another subject he was sceptical about which leads me to believe he might be making exactly the same mistake when interpreting the views of the wider public and their ability to judge many issues at the same time.

    ... though the IPSOS unprompted poll is hard to argue with.
    It has always been an unprompted poll. That is why OGH likes it so much and sees it as an indicator of the greatest concerns for people at present which can be matched against those same concerns over the last 50 years (and I understand that and accept it with caveats). The problem is that Mike has always pushed this line that just because something does not feature high on the list then people don't have concerns about it and it should be ignored. This was exactly the line he pushed for years before the referendum and look where that got him.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,296
    Pulpstar said:

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    22 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    19.5 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Big drift for Rishi, was sitting around 15 for what felt like ages
    Indeed, although Rishi has flirted with the 20/1 mark 10 days or so back.
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