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I don't usually get the coffee. I think walking around the shop drinking out of a cardboard cup is frightfully undignified. I do sometimes get a free paper, but I have stuff to do this afternoon.Slackbladder said:
Enjoy your free coffeeJohnLilburne said:Just had a heart-stopping moment, couldn't find my electronic car key-card, had the awful thought that it was last in the pocket of my running shorts and they had just been put in the wash... luckily I have found it. Reminds me I must get the battery replaced in the currently inoperative spare. Anyway, off to Waitrose.
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I think it's fair enough, and it's brilliant that there's a party in Scotland to fiercely advocate for Scotland within the Union. But it works best inside that context. Separation would have been a disaster. Both Scotland and the SNP are ironically 'better together'.Theuniondivvie said:
Not a traditional analysis of a party that's increased membership by 33% within 72 hrs, but it's a view I suppose.MonikerDiCanio said:
You had one star , Salmond. He's gone. Sturgeon is without magic. As the oil dwindles so will your movement.Theuniondivvie said:
The Scottish quota are largely in the SNP, and it's only going to get worse.DecrepitJohnL said:
What is worrying is that normally stars emerge in opposition but given the tactic of saying nothing about anything, this has not happened. Where are the new generation's equivalents of Blair, Brown and Cook?
8,000 new members since Friday (over 2k for Scottish Greens, 1.5k for SSP).
Btw it's over 9,000 now.0 -
This concept of "pure Anglo Saxon" has always confused me.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Does that mean an Angle father and a Saxon mother?
Or can it be the other way round?0 -
I'd avoid going back over your family tree if I was you. You're very likely to find someone in it you will pathologically hate for no good reason.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
As for MikeK's, flounce, how long before MickKay, appears, with a posting style not entirely dissimilar to him?0 -
On topic,
without wanting to get into whether the Mail is right to claim that it was all Yougov's fault (a stupid claim given the myriad other influences on the last few weeks of the campaign), surely they do at least have a point that, if what OGH has set out above is correct, then Yougov seriously dropped the ball with that poll and that the fault lies not in how they polled but in the adjustments they they put on the numbers o get to their Yes lead.
Kellner might not like the criticism but it looks valid to me if it produced such (in retrospect) a clearly wrong result.0 -
If you allowed your DNA to be analysed, you will find that your ancestors a very long time ago, were black Africans.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
There was programme on a few years back, where the DNA of a huge number of people was sampled. They found most peoples ancestors originated from Africa.
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@LuckyGuy1983FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Still feel I was unfairly accusing the guy of being racist?0 -
For a pollster who so Ill advisedly called the result definitively for No from so far out, and then went on to criticise other's methods, a little humility and introspection might have been better suited. Of course the Mail article is silly, but no need to join them in the gutter.Richard_Tyndall said:On topic,
without wanting to get into whether the Mail is right to claim that it was all Yougov's fault (a stupid claim given the myriad other influences on the last few weeks of the campaign), surely they do at least have a point that, if what OGH has set out above is correct, then Yougov seriously dropped the ball with that poll and that the fault lies not in how they polled but in the adjustments they they put on the numbers o get to their Yes lead.
Kellner might not like the criticism but it looks valid to me if it produced such (in retrospect) a clearly wrong result.
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An intriguing comment – personally I regard being English as more a state of mind, rather than based on genetics. – Pray tell, at what point does the dilution of this genome render someone as being not English?FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
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Apparently Ian Wright isn't English... I don't think that sentiment will find much popular support.
Also, when did this genetic mutation that is distinctive to the English genome emerge? The 400s? 937? 1066?0 -
How would Great Britain be governed as Great Britain with a huge English Parliament pursuing its own policies and with concurrent tax raising powers? How does the UK treasury control the UK of GB? I can see that a just as big a recipe for the end of the UK. Devolution is the enemy of the UK and the only bulwark against it is by NOT having an English Parliament.Yorkcity said:I believe in an English Parliament because in the long run it is the best way of keeping the United Kingdom together.
If you do a short term fix saying, saying Welsh, Scottish, NI MP`s can not vote on English only matters.
Then you are effectively saying, there will never be another Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who is not English.
I believe this country , will then become diminished, in any choice of future leaders.
Look at the facts and figures it is a reality that England dominates. This should not upset Scotland. There is no one trying to deny Scotland its Scottishness. Three cheers to it. But Scotland or the Scots in Scotland get great benefits from an association with England. Devolution (as opposed to having extra Scottish MPs) has not particularly helped Scotland, and was a mistake for us all. But its here now and we have to make the best of it for all our sakes and EL4EL is the best start. Further moves are not needed and as someone now famously said, 'we should think very carefully about our future'0 -
There were Roman Africans that contributed to our gene pool before the Anglo-Saxon tribes ever turned up.hucks67 said:
If you allowed your DNA to be analysed, you will find that your ancestors a very long time ago, were black Africans.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
There was programme on a few years back, where the DNA of a huge number of people was sampled. They found most peoples ancestors originated from Africa.
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YouGov tend to defend their polling methods too much. If you question Anthony Wells too much on polling methods, he can get quite annoyed. I presume this is because people constantly ask the same questions, make the same points and say things which are not true about polling.CarlottaVance said:
For a pollster who so Ill advisedly called the result definitively for No from so far out, and then went on to criticise other's methods, a little humility and introspection might have been better suited. Of course the Mail article is silly, but no need to join them in the gutter.Richard_Tyndall said:On topic,
without wanting to get into whether the Mail is right to claim that it was all Yougov's fault (a stupid claim given the myriad other influences on the last few weeks of the campaign), surely they do at least have a point that, if what OGH has set out above is correct, then Yougov seriously dropped the ball with that poll and that the fault lies not in how they polled but in the adjustments they they put on the numbers o get to their Yes lead.
Kellner might not like the criticism but it looks valid to me if it produced such (in retrospect) a clearly wrong result.
Betty Boothroyd apparently suggested the polling near an election or referendum should be banned. But she may have been misquoted.
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English does not equate to Anglo-Saxon - just as Welsh does not equate to Celtic. But there is an AngloSaxon gene and a Celtic gene and there are more Celtic genes in Wales and more Anglo-Saxon genes in England - but there is not a simple genetic boundary - more a gradual transition from west to east. The reason I did not mention Scotland is that it is far more genetically mixed with plenty if AngloSaxon genes in the south east - Celtic in the west and Viking in the north east.
But all of this is irrelevant as the only identity that matters is the one in your heart. British is not a nationality - it is a legal status that encompasses English, Welsh, Scottish plus various immigrants.0 -
We are all mongrels really.Socrates said:
There were Roman Africans that contributed to our gene pool before the Anglo-Saxon tribes ever turned up.hucks67 said:
If you allowed your DNA to be analysed, you will find that your ancestors a very long time ago, were black Africans.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
There was programme on a few years back, where the DNA of a huge number of people was sampled. They found most peoples ancestors originated from Africa.
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In my experience, the people that most correlate Englishness with whiteness are (1) the far right and (2) recently immigrated East African and Asian immigrants. Ask second generation Somalis whether they think Mo Farah is Somali or English and I think most would say the first.SouthamObserver said:I think that in the past some have expounded an exclusionary vision of Englishness which claims that only people born and bred here of people that were born and bred here can properly be considered English (as opposed to British). I don't think it has ever been close to a majority view, but it seems to be one that certain people on the left have heard - mainly because most normal English people do not spend that much time thinking or talking about their Englishness. So, if you come from an immigrant family and the conversations you hear about Englishness are exclusionary and you do not hear the other point of view you may come away with a skewed opinion of what it all means.
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1. How far off the LDs 44,000 is the SNP?Theuniondivvie said:
Not a traditional analysis of a party that's increased membership by 33% within 72 hrs, but it's a view I suppose.MonikerDiCanio said:
You had one star , Salmond. He's gone. Sturgeon is without magic. As the oil dwindles so will your movement.Theuniondivvie said:
The Scottish quota are largely in the SNP, and it's only going to get worse.DecrepitJohnL said:
What is worrying is that normally stars emerge in opposition but given the tactic of saying nothing about anything, this has not happened. Where are the new generation's equivalents of Blair, Brown and Cook?
8,000 new members since Friday (over 2k for Scottish Greens, 1.5k for SSP).
Btw it's over 9,000 now.
2. How many does SLAB have?0 -
Those "Celtic" genes aren't even really Celtic, as they're pretty much identical to those of the neolithic population that was there before Celtic culture ever crossed the channel. It doesn't make sense to connect genes to cultures or national groups, as they go so much further back. Geographic terms are probably the best way to describe them.Penddu said:English does not equate to Anglo-Saxon - just as Welsh does not equate to Celtic. But there is an AngloSaxon gene and a Celtic gene and there are more Celtic genes in Wales and more Anglo-Saxon genes in England - but there is not a simple genetic boundary - more a gradual transition from west to east. The reason I did not mention Scotland is that it is far more genetically mixed with plenty if AngloSaxon genes in the south east - Celtic in the west and Viking in the north east.
But all of this is irrelevant as the only identity that matters is the one in your heart. British is not a nationality - it is a legal status that encompasses English, Welsh, Scottish plus various immigrants.0 -
After Labour's last leader Gordon Brown wafted in and gave away Scottish 'virtual home rule' on an impulse, Miliband this morning says we cannot give some simple measure of EV4EL 'on the back of a fag packet' and not without some grand time wasting Constitutional Commission - eg 'never'.MonikerDiCanio said:
Labour's cupboard is bare. EdM is probably the best you've got and he's dead set on electoral disaster in 2015.DecrepitJohnL said:
You are half right imo. Ed is crap but the alternatives would have been at least as bad. David would have copped the same flack as Ed (and probably it was originally collated to use against David).SouthamObserver said:
Right now we do not know what the Tories believe EV4EL means. This is why it was so utterly ridiculous for Miliband just to say no. All he needed to say was that he agreed that it was an issue that needed to be looked at and that he looked forward to seeing the government's proposals. he really is utterly crap.JohnLilburne said:When Ed talks about "greater scrutiny" of English legislation by English MPs, is he talking about any more than an English Grand Committee to look at the committee stage of bills? That's what it sounds like to me. Which is the pre-devolution position that Scotland was in (but with administrative devolution to the Scotland Office).
I may be a shite tipster, but I remember saying when he was elected leader that it was a very bad day for Labour. And it was. Abbott aside, any of the other candidates would have been better choices.
What is worrying is that normally stars emerge in opposition but given the tactic of saying nothing about anything, this has not happened. Where are the new generation's equivalents of Blair, Brown and Cook?
Miliband's attitude is total hypocrisy.0 -
The legal regulation of cannabis is becoming well-entrenched over the USA.Washington' regulation corrected the Colorado problem which was cannabis edibles targeted at children like sweets .Cannabis is not for kids whilst their brains still are developing.Washington has therefore gone the other way on edibles.The answer is to cook the edibles yourself so you know how much dosage to put in.I call this progress and,by enlarge a cross-party non-partisan issue.Sooner or later something has to give in UK policy.Legal regulation is can be as strict or as loose as the politicians demand but the lead government authority needs to be Health and not he HO.Change has to come.
http://time.com/2955024/washington-where-to-buy-pot/0 -
Up yer bum!FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
You saying my daughters are only half English?0 -
For me the idiocy of this concept of genetic Englishness his highlighted in the work done on the Anglo-Saxon cemetery at West Heslerton in Yorkshire.CarlottaVance said:
This concept of "pure Anglo Saxon" has always confused me.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Does that mean an Angle father and a Saxon mother?
Or can it be the other way round?
To precis the study by Montgomery et al (which can be found on the internet via the academia website) of the Strontium and Lead isotopes found in the dentine of the skeletons (all of which displayed Anglo-Saxon grave goods and burial practices), only one out of the more than 30 individuals studied had grown up outside the British Isles. This is in spite of the fact that the cemetery is from a period when the Anglo-Saxons were supposedly just arriving in the British Isles. All the others individuals who had been born in (what we now consider) England and who had adopted AS burial practices.
Neither genetics nor archaeology support any idea of an exclusive 'English' genome and I suspect that 99% of those who claim pure English blood would not have to go too far back in their family history before they found something to spoil their day.
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And mine for the same reason. Given that my other-half's family is from Wales and Scotland and that my maternal ancestors back to 1762 came from Portadown, what does that make my two daughters born in Manchester and Oswestry?Patrick said:
Up yer bum!FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
You saying my daughters are only half English?
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There are crackpots driven by prejudice everywhere. I mean just look at the conspiracy rubbish written about 911.Richard_Tyndall said:
You know what Pete,I know you are joking but it is scary how many of my Scots friends on FB seem to believe a (slightly) milder version of what you posted there. The Lemming Petition is a good example of this as are all the videos purporting to show counting fraud and there is a huge sense of denial and 'we woz robbed' amongst those who have not previously been involved in politics.volcanopete said:Was the Scottish referendum controlled by an establishment conspiracy dreamt up in MI5, which included Carswell's defection to Ukip,to keep the Labour lead in the polls?The whole thing could have been orchestrated and manipulated by the security services with the subservient state broadcaster,the BBC,spreading the agreed propaganda.The polling could have been rigged and I'm sure if Scotland voted Yes,they would have undermined it so it did not happen via sabotage.
Hopefully with time they will see sense and realise the simplest explanation is usually the right one but right now there is a huge amount of resentment and distrust.0 -
You know you're on weak ground when you have to throw insults at the other side's argument without any attempt at refuting their points. Between 400 AD and 900 AD there was a huge rise in English nationality in this isle, but the genetic population was virtually identical. Nationality is a shared mentality and cultural norms.FalseFlag said:
Gibberish.Richard_Tyndall said:
For me Englishness has nothing to do with place of birth nor skin colour. It is a state of mind and an acceptance of certain non exclusive cultural attitudes. That is why I believe it is so difficult to define. For example I think it is far easier to define certain behaviours and attitudes as 'non English' than it is to define some as archetypal English.SouthamObserver said:I think that in the past some have expounded an exclusionary vision of Englishness which claims that only people born and bred here of people that were born and bred here can properly be considered English (as opposed to British). I don't think it has ever been close to a majority view, but it seems to be one that certain people on the left have heard - mainly because most normal English people do not spend that much time thinking or talking about their Englishness.
But I would contend that same about almost all cultural groupings.0 -
Waitrose give you free coffee? Tescos most definitely do not because I have just been there getting a nice bottle of red for the Sunday roast.Slackbladder said:
Enjoy your free coffeeJohnLilburne said:.... Anyway, off to Waitrose.
Beef today - rather amusing given that I am not "genetically english". I will add Yorkshire puds just to be controversial ;-)
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I only have to go back three generations to find English, Irish, French and SA Portuguese ancestors. The boys can add German and Polish to their family tree.Beverley_C said:
And mine for the same reason. Given that my other-half's family is from Wales and Scotland and that my maternal ancestors back to 1762 came from Portadown, what does that make my two daughters born in Manchester and Oswestry?Patrick said:
Up yer bum!FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
You saying my daughters are only half English?
I’m an unconventional ‘little Englander’ ?0 -
Have people been discussing the Scotland voting intention Survation phone poll from Friday? According to it the Lib Dems are at 3% support in Scotland! Does this mesh with UK wide polling?
http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Where-Next-for-Scotland-Tables.pdf0 -
Brown had the agreement of the Prime Minister.Flightpath said:
After Labour's last leader Gordon Brown wafted in and gave away Scottish 'virtual home rule' on an impulse, Miliband this morning says we cannot give some simple measure of EV4EL 'on the back of a fag packet' and not without some grand time wasting Constitutional Commission - eg 'never'.MonikerDiCanio said:
Labour's cupboard is bare. EdM is probably the best you've got and he's dead set on electoral disaster in 2015.DecrepitJohnL said:
You are half right imo. Ed is crap but the alternatives would have been at least as bad. David would have copped the same flack as Ed (and probably it was originally collated to use against David).SouthamObserver said:
Right now we do not know what the Tories believe EV4EL means. This is why it was so utterly ridiculous for Miliband just to say no. All he needed to say was that he agreed that it was an issue that needed to be looked at and that he looked forward to seeing the government's proposals. he really is utterly crap.JohnLilburne said:When Ed talks about "greater scrutiny" of English legislation by English MPs, is he talking about any more than an English Grand Committee to look at the committee stage of bills? That's what it sounds like to me. Which is the pre-devolution position that Scotland was in (but with administrative devolution to the Scotland Office).
I may be a shite tipster, but I remember saying when he was elected leader that it was a very bad day for Labour. And it was. Abbott aside, any of the other candidates would have been better choices.
What is worrying is that normally stars emerge in opposition but given the tactic of saying nothing about anything, this has not happened. Where are the new generation's equivalents of Blair, Brown and Cook?
Miliband's attitude is total hypocrisy.0 -
Indeed. Race and religion are not the same thing. Culture and race are not the same thing. I think all English of whatever colour of the rainbow should be rightly proud of their English (and British) identity. My daughters certainly are.Socrates said:
Nationality is a shared mentality and cultural norms.FalseFlag said:
Gibberish.Richard_Tyndall said:
For me Englishness has nothing to do with place of birth nor skin colour. It is a state of mind and an acceptance of certain non exclusive cultural attitudes. That is why I believe it is so difficult to define. For example I think it is far easier to define certain behaviours and attitudes as 'non English' than it is to define some as archetypal English.SouthamObserver said:I think that in the past some have expounded an exclusionary vision of Englishness which claims that only people born and bred here of people that were born and bred here can properly be considered English (as opposed to British). I don't think it has ever been close to a majority view, but it seems to be one that certain people on the left have heard - mainly because most normal English people do not spend that much time thinking or talking about their Englishness.
But I would contend that same about almost all cultural groupings.
The False Flag race based view leads only to the BNP (and historically alot worse around the world). Let's celebrate all who genuinely share and are proud of our culture. But let's not at the same time shy away from those who don't or who hate it and strive to destroy it.0 -
The BBC did a program a while back checking people's DNA -ironically, Norman Tebbit, who said he expected to be "a bit of a mongrel" turned out to be of pretty standard stock, while the "English Nationalist" withdrew when it emerged there were genes of a duskier hue only a few generations back....Richard_Tyndall said:
Neither genetics nor archaeology support any idea of an exclusive 'English' genome and I suspect that 99% of those who claim pure English blood would not have to go too far back in their family history before they found something to spoil their day.CarlottaVance said:
This concept of "pure Anglo Saxon" has always confused me.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Does that mean an Angle father and a Saxon mother?
Or can it be the other way round?0 -
We are a nation of mongrels. We seem to associate being English with being Anglo-Saxon (so Germanic actually) or of great English heroes like Richard the "didn't speak English was almost always abroad" Lionheart, or of our never came here has nothing to do with here patron saint. English as a language is hard to leard due to having so many words sourced from other languages and grammatical rules that are full of exceptions.
So no, England isn't about genetics or language. You could argue it's cultural but even if you abolished multiculturalism you'd still have multiple cultures within the supposedly English people. Isn't what makes us English our fairness generosity and creativity? I don't believe ethnicity can come into it, not with our history.0 -
Mine is also confused. My mothers side is Southern Irish and Welsh. My father's going way back is Norse of some kind (I have the genetic trigger finger trait associated with a particular Viking grouping). My father's ancestors were planted in southern Ireland by Cromwell and came back to England half way through the Victorian period.SimonStClare said:
I only have to go back three generations to find English, Irish, French and SA Portuguese ancestors. The boys can add German and Polish to their family tree. – I’m an unconventional ‘little Englander’ ?Beverley_C said:
And mine for the same reason. Given that my other-half's family is from Wales and Scotland and that my maternal ancestors back to 1762 came from Portadown, what does that make my two daughters born in Manchester and Oswestry?Patrick said:
Up yer bum!FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
You saying my daughters are only half English?
And that is just the recent linear ancestry. I am sure if you strayed just a little way off to one side it would get even more confusing. I do know for example that from the early 19th century there is a direct German ancestor.
Maybe I should just leave the country to be sure I don't upset the pure breeds.0 -
On the previous thread,a lot of posters (PB Tories for the most part) were sneering at the Lib Dems, as they usually do, for not taking sides in the latest Con-Lab punch-up.
This morning, I came across a piece by Nick Clegg here
http://www.libdems.org.uk/nick_clegg_this_opportunity_cannot_be_hijacked?utm_campaign=scotland_210914&utm_medium=email&utm_source=libdems
which makes his position reasonably clear, I think.
As is usual with our party leaders, though, it is not totally clear whether he is speaking as Leader of the Lib Dems, Deputy Prime Minister of the Government, or just for himself. Cameron does the same thing. And Miliband does similarly.
But at least Clegg is not silent on the Scotland powers/ England votes question.0 -
I am of mixed ancestry. Both Worcestershire and Gloucestershire.0
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duplicate0
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Your rich heritage is not unusual. Those who would divide us and set us at each other's throats, such as various nationalist parties, are the enemies of humanity.SimonStClare said:
I only have to go back three generations to find English, Irish, French and SA Portuguese ancestors. The boys can add German and Polish to their family tree.Beverley_C said:
And mine for the same reason. Given that my other-half's family is from Wales and Scotland and that my maternal ancestors back to 1762 came from Portadown, what does that make my two daughters born in Manchester and Oswestry?Patrick said:
Up yer bum!FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
You saying my daughters are only half English?
I’m an unconventional ‘little Englander’ ?
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So Englishness is just false consciousness, I am glad you have cleared that up.0
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Patrick said:
Indeed. Race and religion are not the same thing. Culture and race are not the same thing. I think all English of whatever colour of the rainbow should be rightly proud of their English (and British) identity. My daughters certainly are.
I always think of nationality as an "identity" issue and a legal matter, nothing more. I would never identify myself as English because I am not, even though I have lived as long in England as I did in Belfast. I happily identify as British because that suits the strange mix of my birth and where I have lived. My children are English because they were born here and have always lived here and it is part of their identity, not their genetics.Richard_Tyndall said:
Neither genetics nor archaeology support any idea of an exclusive 'English' genome and I suspect that 99% of those who claim pure English blood would not have to go too far back in their family history before they found something to spoil their day.
Racism is one of the strangest concepts imaginable. There is only one human race so how can we be "racially" different from each other? It makes absolutely no sense.
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I may be wrong, but I think Labour have a big problem with this EV4EL issue. I understand some of their criticisms of the approach taken by the government, but the problem is that by opposing it (at times using quite strong language) they can easily be cast as being fundamentally unfair.0
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Hmm, I think you mean 'rich and multifaceted' Mr Tyndall... ; )Richard_Tyndall said:
Mine is also confused.SimonStClare said:
I only have to go back three generations to find English, Irish, French and SA Portuguese ancestors. The boys can add German and Polish to their family tree. – I’m an unconventional ‘little Englander’ ?Beverley_C said:
And mine for the same reason. Given that my other-half's family is from Wales and Scotland and that my maternal ancestors back to 1762 came from Portadown, what does that make my two daughters born in Manchester and Oswestry?Patrick said:
Up yer bum!FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
You saying my daughters are only half English?0 -
Given both the genetic and anecdotal evidence on this issue, you sound like a fairly typical Englishman to me.SimonStClare said:
I only have to go back three generations to find English, Irish, French and SA Portuguese ancestors. The boys can add German and Polish to their family tree.
I’m an unconventional ‘little Englander’ ?
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I believe that is precisely the plan.numbertwelve said:the problem is that by opposing it (at times using quite strong language) they can easily be cast as being fundamentally unfair.
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It's easy to define a human being. I've heard it said that we are a social species, but we appear to be a tribal species. I wonder if that might not be a determining flaw.0
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It is now broadly accepted that a post Roman mass Anglo Saxon 'invasion' is a myth. The British and that included the 'Scots' (who came from Ireland) are a polyglot race. It was more a case of the locals being 'anglo-saxonised' by the new colonists or migrants rather than being driven out to the north and west.Richard_Tyndall said:
For me the idiocy of this concept of genetic Englishness his highlighted in the work done on the Anglo-Saxon cemetery at West Heslerton in Yorkshire.CarlottaVance said:
This concept of "pure Anglo Saxon" has always confused me.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Does that mean an Angle father and a Saxon mother?
Or can it be the other way round?
To precis the study by Montgomery et al (which can be found on the internet via the academia website) of the Strontium and Lead isotopes found in the dentine of the skeletons (all of which displayed Anglo-Saxon grave goods and burial practices), only one out of the more than 30 individuals studied had grown up outside the British Isles. This is in spite of the fact that the cemetery is from a period when the Anglo-Saxons were supposedly just arriving in the British Isles. All the others individuals who had been born in (what we now consider) England and who had adopted AS burial practices.
Neither genetics nor archaeology support any idea of an exclusive 'English' genome and I suspect that 99% of those who claim pure English blood would not have to go too far back in their family history before they found something to spoil their day.
Since then the 'English' have absorbed newcomers who themselves became Anglicised.
The anglo-saxon settlement did of course include significant parts of lowland Scotland.0 -
Anyone with blue eyes or green eyes has genetics from the Black Sea region, so they must be excluded.Richard_Tyndall said:
Mine is also confused. My mothers side is Southern Irish and Welsh. My father's going way back is Norse of some kind (I have the genetic trigger finger trait associated with a particular Viking grouping). My father's ancestors were planted in southern Ireland by Cromwell and came back to England half way through the Victorian period.SimonStClare said:
I only have to go back three generations to find English, Irish, French and SA Portuguese ancestors. The boys can add German and Polish to their family tree. – I’m an unconventional ‘little Englander’ ?Beverley_C said:
And mine for the same reason. Given that my other-half's family is from Wales and Scotland and that my maternal ancestors back to 1762 came from Portadown, what does that make my two daughters born in Manchester and Oswestry?Patrick said:
Up yer bum!FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
You saying my daughters are only half English?
And that is just the recent linear ancestry. I am sure if you strayed just a little way off to one side it would get even more confusing. I do know for example that from the early 19th century there is a direct German ancestor.
Maybe I should just leave the country to be sure I don't upset the pure breeds.0 -
I didn't realise that my trigger finger could be associated with a Scandinavian gene. Mind, with ancestors on the south-western Welsh coast and the East Midlands on England, that's hardly surprising.Richard_Tyndall said:
Mine is also confused. My mothers side is Southern Irish and Welsh. My father's going way back is Norse of some kind (I have the genetic trigger finger trait associated with a particular Viking grouping). My father's ancestors were planted in southern Ireland by Cromwell and came back to England half way through the Victorian period.SimonStClare said:
I only have to go back three generations to find English, Irish, French and SA Portuguese ancestors. The boys can add German and Polish to their family tree. – I’m an unconventional ‘little Englander’ ?Beverley_C said:
And mine for the same reason. Given that my other-half's family is from Wales and Scotland and that my maternal ancestors back to 1762 came from Portadown, what does that make my two daughters born in Manchester and Oswestry?Patrick said:
Up yer bum!FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
You saying my daughters are only half English?
And that is just the recent linear ancestry. I am sure if you strayed just a little way off to one side it would get even more confusing. I do know for example that from the early 19th century there is a direct German ancestor.
Maybe I should just leave the country to be sure I don't upset the pure breeds.
I've often wondered what doing a DNA test might reveal. Or suggest!0 -
I'm a thoroughbred. Pure Cockney, mate.No_Offence_Alan said:I am of mixed ancestry. Both Worcestershire and Gloucestershire.
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No more false than any other grouping.PAW said:So Englishness is just false consciousness, I am glad you have cleared that up.
0 -
Only somebody with an Aryan fixation would shout ''English means genetically English''. There are quite a few such about, and some on otherwise respected blogs. Nigel Farage has found them a useful if rather muddy furrow to plough.CarlottaVance said:
This concept of "pure Anglo Saxon" has always confused me.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Does that mean an Angle father and a Saxon mother?
Or can it be the other way round?0 -
Yes, which is doubtless why it was master strategised in the first place. However, the government risks being seen as obstructive, or of going back on a clear pre-referendum commitment ("the vow") to the Scots.numbertwelve said:I may be wrong, but I think Labour have a big problem with this EV4EL issue. I understand some of their criticisms of the approach taken by the government, but the problem is that by opposing it (at times using quite strong language) they can easily be cast as being fundamentally unfair.
And read this thread about the problems of defining Englishness and see there is also a risk that the Conservative Party might be seen -- probably wrongly and perhaps unfairly -- as seeking to exclude large groups of voters.
And that is betting without its impact on Wales, where the Conservatives have eight MPs.
So you are right that Labour has a problem, but so do the Conservatives. And so might all of us, depending how this thing turns out.0 -
On the contrary, the nation state has proved to be the best guarantee of safety for humanity. It is those who would undermine the nation state and establish supranational government who have consistently proved willing to break as many eggs as needed to create their own omelette.MonikerDiCanio said:
Your rich heritage is not unusual. Those who would divide us and set us at each other's throats, such as various nationalist parties, are the enemies of humanity.SimonStClare said:
I only have to go back three generations to find English, Irish, French and SA Portuguese ancestors. The boys can add German and Polish to their family tree.Beverley_C said:
And mine for the same reason. Given that my other-half's family is from Wales and Scotland and that my maternal ancestors back to 1762 came from Portadown, what does that make my two daughters born in Manchester and Oswestry?Patrick said:
Up yer bum!FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
You saying my daughters are only half English?
I’m an unconventional ‘little Englander’ ?0 -
What bullshit. UKIP are the only party to actively kick out former National Front and BNP members. It's Labour and the Tories that are happy to bolster their ranks with those with racist and fascist connections.Flightpath said:
Only somebody with an Aryan fixation would shout ''English means genetically English''. There are quite a few such about, and some on otherwise respected blogs. Nigel Farage has found them a useful if rather muddy furrow to plough.CarlottaVance said:
This concept of "pure Anglo Saxon" has always confused me.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Does that mean an Angle father and a Saxon mother?
Or can it be the other way round?0 -
Speaking of mud whilst trying to sling it.Flightpath said:
Only somebody with an Aryan fixation would shout ''English means genetically English''. There are quite a few such about, and some on otherwise respected blogs. Nigel Farage has found them a useful if rather muddy furrow to plough.CarlottaVance said:
This concept of "pure Anglo Saxon" has always confused me.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Does that mean an Angle father and a Saxon mother?
Or can it be the other way round?
0 -
Both those seeking to abolish national identity and those that seek to expand theirs at the expense of others have caused nasty effects. The critical divide is between those that seek to do things democratically and those that seek to overrule the people.Luckyguy1983 said:
On the contrary, the nation state has proved to be the best guarantee of safety for humanity. It is those who would undermine the nation state and establish supranational government who have consistently proved willing to break as many eggs as needed to create their own omelette.MonikerDiCanio said:
Your rich heritage is not unusual. Those who would divide us and set us at each other's throats, such as various nationalist parties, are the enemies of humanity.SimonStClare said:
I only have to go back three generations to find English, Irish, French and SA Portuguese ancestors. The boys can add German and Polish to their family tree.Beverley_C said:
And mine for the same reason. Given that my other-half's family is from Wales and Scotland and that my maternal ancestors back to 1762 came from Portadown, what does that make my two daughters born in Manchester and Oswestry?Patrick said:
Up yer bum!FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
You saying my daughters are only half English?
I’m an unconventional ‘little Englander’ ?0 -
As I have pointed out before, Ms Sturgeon is by far the best-rated pol with the Scottish publics, of any party. [Edit}: and I wouldn't underestimate the others in the cabinet, certainly Mr Swinney who has a huge role to play in keeping fiscal control. Their background in life has been far more varied than the usual Oxford PPE. For instance, the media who sneered at Keith Brown for going to the Falklands commemoration as a Scottish Minister for Transport and Veterans failed to realise he was a RM bootie in the '82 campaign.OldKingCole said:
Are you sure Sturgeon is without “magic”? I reckon she could easily become a star outside as well as within Scotland.MonikerDiCanio said:
You had one star , Salmond. He's gone. Sturgeon is without magic. As the oil dwindles so will your movement.Theuniondivvie said:
The Scottish quota are largely in the SNP, and it's only going to get worse.DecrepitJohnL said:
What is worrying is that normally stars emerge in opposition but given the tactic of saying nothing about anything, this has not happened. Where are the new generation's equivalents of Blair, Brown and Cook?
8,000 new members since Friday (over 2k for Scottish Greens, 1.5k for SSP).
She will also have the advantage of being able to tackle Johann Lamont in FMQ's without the cries of 'nasty big male bully' which were used to deflect fro the issue of Ms Lamont's actual performance when it was under attack by Mr Salmond. She also saw off Mr Carmichael the SoSfScot in a debate then much compared to feeding time at Jurassic Park.
On the genetic theme, additionally, I still wish the media had been a bit less biased about indyref, if only to see a more systematic dissection of Johann Lamont's suggestion (not a joke, AFAIK) that we Scots are not genetically programmed to make political decisions. Remarkable statement from one of the people's tribunes, in more than one way.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBH55ZeZU4w0 -
I now understand the basis of your attack.Socrates said:
@LuckyGuy1983FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Still feel I was unfairly accusing the guy of being racist?
0 -
Is this a good time to bring up the lineage of the current Royal family? Surely the Queen of England should be classed as English in spite of her mixed Russian / German / English / etc ancestry?Richard_Tyndall said:I do know for example that from the early 19th century there is a direct German ancestor.
Maybe I should just leave the country to be sure I don't upset the pure breeds.
0 -
I know I have just pointed this out before but 'anglo saxon' is not the 'native stock'. There was no anglo saxon invasion, just a gradual increase in trade and settlement with north german tribes who 'anglicised' the locals just as previously they were 'romanised'. Our culture became anglo-saxon and then became anglo-norman. We were in part 'Normanised' and the Normans were in part Anglicised. Throughout all this the numbers of settlers, Normans and Anglo-Saxons, were relatively small. Their influence was of course great. Throughout all this our language evolved as did our national character.Slackbladder said:
Im going to be careful exactly want i say here, because I dont want anything to be taken wrongly. Part of the problem is language, because we dont have a word for what you're talking about above, white/anglo-saxon etc etc. We have all manner and sorts of terms for various waves of immigration down the centuries, whether Indian, Black, Pakistani, etc, but nothing for the 'native' people (and even that term is fraught with danger)JohnLilburne said:
Well, there are two definitions of Englishness. One is an ethnic one - someone from Anglo Saxon/Viking/British stock, with some Norman/Huguenot/Flemish from medieval population movements. White, native English speaker, etc. And the other is a civic one - someone who lives here and is a citizen (or would be if we had English citizenship) and can come from any ethnic background. TSE, for example, is one but not the other. I think there is some discomfort for some people talking about "Englishness" as they think it is the purely ethnic version that is meant - and it's not a particularly useful definition. I have no problem thinking of Moeen Ali or TSE or Nasser Hussain as Englishmen, but I am sure there are some that do.SouthamObserver said:I think that in the past some have expounded an exclusionary vision of Englishness which means that only people born and bred here of people that were born and bred here can properly be considered English (as opposed to British). I don't think it has ever been close to a majority view, but it seems to be one that certain people on the left have heard - mainly because most normal English people do not spend that much time thinking or talking about their Englishness.
So really there is a word or words .... 'Anglo-Saxon Settlement' and the Norman Invasion, neither of which were mass migrations.0 -
Here is an idea that Labour ought to follow - From the LA Times - The Los Angeles Fire Commission adopted new rules Tuesday to prevent conflicts of interest and reform a firefighter hiring process that a city report called “tainted” by concerns of nepotism. The changes will require all LAFD officials involved in the selection process to notify superiors when they have a friend or family member in the applicant pool. Those officials would be reassigned if their participation in screening candidates or supervising the process could be perceived as a conflict of interest.0
-
I agree, broadly speaking. But there is a grey area of what has been called 'manufacturing consent' by Chomsky.Socrates said:
Both those seeking to abolish national identity and those that seek to expand theirs at the expense of others have caused nasty effects. The critical divide is between those that seek to do things democratically and those that seek to overrule the people.Luckyguy1983 said:
On the contrary, the nation state has proved to be the best guarantee of safety for humanity. It is those who would undermine the nation state and establish supranational government who have consistently proved willing to break as many eggs as needed to create their own omelette.MonikerDiCanio said:
Your rich heritage is not unusual. Those who would divide us and set us at each other's throats, such as various nationalist parties, are the enemies of humanity.SimonStClare said:
I only have to go back three generations to find English, Irish, French and SA Portuguese ancestors. The boys can add German and Polish to their family tree.Beverley_C said:
And mine for the same reason. Given that my other-half's family is from Wales and Scotland and that my maternal ancestors back to 1762 came from Portadown, what does that make my two daughters born in Manchester and Oswestry?Patrick said:
Up yer bum!FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
You saying my daughters are only half English?
I’m an unconventional ‘little Englander’ ?0 -
Were there not also, at around the material time several appalling harvests, resulting in famine and significant loss of life?Flightpath said:
I know I have just pointed this out before but 'anglo saxon' is not the 'native stock'. There was no anglo saxon invasion, just a gradual increase in trade and settlement with north german tribes who 'anglicised' the locals just as previously they were 'romanised'. Our culture became anglo-saxon and then became anglo-norman. We were in part 'Normanised' and the Normans were in part Anglicised. Throughout all this the numbers of settlers, Normans and Anglo-Saxons, were relatively small. Their influence was of course great. Throughout all this our language evolved as did our national character.Slackbladder said:
Im going to be careful exactly want i say here, because I dont want anything to be taken wrongly. Part of the problem is language, because we dont have a word for what you're talking about above, white/anglo-saxon etc etc. We have all manner and sorts of terms for various waves of immigration down the centuries, whether Indian, Black, Pakistani, etc, but nothing for the 'native' people (and even that term is fraught with danger)JohnLilburne said:
Well, there are two definitions of Englishness. One is an ethnic one - someone from Anglo Saxon/Viking/British stock, with some Norman/Huguenot/Flemish from medieval population movements. White, native English speaker, etc. And the other is a civic one - someone who lives here and is a citizen (or would be if we had English citizenship) and can come from any ethnic background. TSE, for example, is one but not the other. I think there is some discomfort for some people talking about "Englishness" as they think it is the purely ethnic version that is meant - and it's not a particularly useful definition. I have no problem thinking of Moeen Ali or TSE or Nasser Hussain as Englishmen, but I am sure there are some that do.SouthamObserver said:I think that in the past some have expounded an exclusionary vision of Englishness which means that only people born and bred here of people that were born and bred here can properly be considered English (as opposed to British). I don't think it has ever been close to a majority view, but it seems to be one that certain people on the left have heard - mainly because most normal English people do not spend that much time thinking or talking about their Englishness.
So really there is a word or words .... 'Anglo-Saxon Settlement' and the Norman Invasion, neither of which were mass migrations.0 -
By any conventional sense, HMQ would be regarded as English. - the other oddity is 'Phil the Greek' - he's actually Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark, a Royal linage more Scandinavian based I believe and quite distinct from the swarthy Mediterranean archetype.Beverley_C said:
Is this a good time to bring up the lineage of the current Royal family? Surely the Queen of England should be classed as English in spite of her mixed Russian / German / English / etc ancestry?Richard_Tyndall said:I do know for example that from the early 19th century there is a direct German ancestor.
Maybe I should just leave the country to be sure I don't upset the pure breeds.0 -
What do we think of the survation poll showing UKIP on 23%???0
-
I think I am being pretty direct - I despise FalseFlag's typically kipperesque assertion. Can only the Pilgrim Fathers be American? Its a deliberate and bigoted divisive tactic.Luckyguy1983 said:
Speaking of mud whilst trying to sling it.Flightpath said:
Only somebody with an Aryan fixation would shout ''English means genetically English''. There are quite a few such about, and some on otherwise respected blogs. Nigel Farage has found them a useful if rather muddy furrow to plough.CarlottaVance said:
This concept of "pure Anglo Saxon" has always confused me.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Does that mean an Angle father and a Saxon mother?
Or can it be the other way round?
The nasty streak which seeks to split our nation because it does not like what it hears on the tube comes from only one direction.0 -
Marvelous!taffys said:What do we think of the survation poll showing UKIP on 23%???
The three current leaders have shown themselves to be absolutely useless, highlighted last week. There is a void to be filled and UKIP are doing that.0 -
Which one? Is there a UK VI in the daily Mail poll?taffys said:What do we think of the survation poll showing UKIP on 23%???
0 -
I'd love to be there and watch their deliberations when the Queen, the Prime Minister, the Arch Bishop of Canterbury etc fill in their Monitoring Equality and Diversity forms. I recently found out that I have less chance of being on interview panels at work becase I 'prefer not say' and also that a colleague who does lots of interviewing is of mixed race. I had no idea.Beverley_C said:
Is this a good time to bring up the lineage of the current Royal family? Surely the Queen of England should be classed as English in spite of her mixed Russian / German / English / etc ancestry?Richard_Tyndall said:I do know for example that from the early 19th century there is a direct German ancestor.
Maybe I should just leave the country to be sure I don't upset the pure breeds.
I saw something recently that Labour intends to include class on those forms if it gets its way. It didn't say how it would be defined.0 -
If you sign up for a MyWaitrose card you get free coffee in store, also a free newspaper (Telegraph, Mail, Guardian/Observer) if you spend £5 (£10 on Sundays) plus other offers which are usually 10% off random items in store, although sometimes more generous. And they email you vouchers, last week I got £3 off wine - the Puglian red I am having with my duck tonight.Beverley_C said:
Waitrose give you free coffee? Tescos most definitely do not because I have just been there getting a nice bottle of red for the Sunday roast.Slackbladder said:
Enjoy your free coffeeJohnLilburne said:.... Anyway, off to Waitrose.
0 -
Farage knows that his party attracts a higher percentage of former BNP and NF members, so he has to respond actively when they are uncovered by the press.Socrates said:
What bullshit. UKIP are the only party to actively kick out former National Front and BNP members. It's Labour and the Tories that are happy to bolster their ranks with those with racist and fascist connections.Flightpath said:
Only somebody with an Aryan fixation would shout ''English means genetically English''. There are quite a few such about, and some on otherwise respected blogs. Nigel Farage has found them a useful if rather muddy furrow to plough.CarlottaVance said:
This concept of "pure Anglo Saxon" has always confused me.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Does that mean an Angle father and a Saxon mother?
Or can it be the other way round?0 -
Primitovo or Negroamaro? I was introduced to them by a cousin who has moved to Puglia and I'm very grateful to him. I've found them to be very pleasant drinks indeed.JohnLilburne said:
If you sign up for a MyWaitrose card you get free coffee in store, also a free newspaper (Telegraph, Mail, Guardian/Observer) if you spend £5 (£10 on Sundays) plus other offers which are usually 10% off random items in store, although sometimes more generous. And they email you vouchers, last week I got £3 off wine - the Puglian red I am having with my duck tonight.Beverley_C said:
Waitrose give you free coffee? Tescos most definitely do not because I have just been there getting a nice bottle of red for the Sunday roast.Slackbladder said:
Enjoy your free coffeeJohnLilburne said:.... Anyway, off to Waitrose.
0 -
And yet you've backed him to improve his position in Doncaster North to the tune of beers and a slap up meal!SouthamObserver said:
Right now we do not know what the Tories believe EV4EL means. This is why it was so utterly ridiculous for Miliband just to say no. All he needed to say was that he agreed that it was an issue that needed to be looked at and that he looked forward to seeing the government's proposals. he really is utterly crap.JohnLilburne said:When Ed talks about "greater scrutiny" of English legislation by English MPs, is he talking about any more than an English Grand Committee to look at the committee stage of bills? That's what it sounds like to me. Which is the pre-devolution position that Scotland was in (but with administrative devolution to the Scotland Office).
I may be a shite tipster, but I remember saying when he was elected leader that it was a very bad day for Labour. And it was. Abbott aside, any of the other candidates would have been better choices.0 -
I for one can never get too worked up about ancestry, as since my father despised his parents I know nothing about the heritage on that side of the family. Could be anything I guess. I'm told I have an alcoholic Irishman as great grandaddy on the maternal side though, and mu surname is apparently quite middle englandishy. Fascinating stuff ancestry.0
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No.volcanopete said:Was the Scottish referendum controlled by an establishment conspiracy dreamt up in MI5, which included Carswell's defection to Ukip,to keep the Labour lead in the polls?The whole thing could have been orchestrated and manipulated by the security services with the subservient state broadcaster,the BBC,spreading the agreed propaganda.The polling could have been rigged and I'm sure if Scotland voted Yes,they would have undermined it so it did not happen via sabotage.
Next question?0 -
I do worry about a lot of UKIP policies, but it is fantastic that there is a fourth party out there are least prepared to ask the difficult questions. If there wasnt an alternative I have little doubt that things like EV4EL would be swept under the carpet.nigel4england said:
Marvelous!taffys said:What do we think of the survation poll showing UKIP on 23%???
The three current leaders have shown themselves to be absolutely useless, highlighted last week. There is a void to be filled and UKIP are doing that.0 -
Farage has at no time ploughed that furrow. Shame you are still resorting to such idiotic smears.Flightpath said:
Only somebody with an Aryan fixation would shout ''English means genetically English''. There are quite a few such about, and some on otherwise respected blogs. Nigel Farage has found them a useful if rather muddy furrow to plough.CarlottaVance said:
This concept of "pure Anglo Saxon" has always confused me.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Does that mean an Angle father and a Saxon mother?
Or can it be the other way round?0 -
It is in no way Kipperesque. Again you smear without basis. Very sad and one reason why you are held in such low esteem compared to other Tories who argue in a more rational manner.Flightpath said:
I think I am being pretty direct - I despise FalseFlag's typically kipperesque assertion. Can only the Pilgrim Fathers be American? Its a deliberate and bigoted divisive tactic.Luckyguy1983 said:
Speaking of mud whilst trying to sling it.Flightpath said:
Only somebody with an Aryan fixation would shout ''English means genetically English''. There are quite a few such about, and some on otherwise respected blogs. Nigel Farage has found them a useful if rather muddy furrow to plough.CarlottaVance said:
This concept of "pure Anglo Saxon" has always confused me.FalseFlag said:English means genetically English.
Does that mean an Angle father and a Saxon mother?
Or can it be the other way round?
The nasty streak which seeks to split our nation because it does not like what it hears on the tube comes from only one direction.0 -
it's a blend - both, plus Nero de Troia. No AOC, just IGT Puglia. I discovered some of the Campanian wines when I visited Naples a few years ago, there are some very interesting grapes (Aglianico del Vulture is one) and unlike most other supermarket wines these days the reds aren't made just to be "fruity". I reckon they are much better value than the more fashionable northern Italian reds.OldKingCole said:
Primitovo or Negroamaro? I was introduced to them by a cousin who has moved to Puglia and I'm very grateful to him. I've found them to be very pleasant drinks indeed.JohnLilburne said:
If you sign up for a MyWaitrose card you get free coffee in store, also a free newspaper (Telegraph, Mail, Guardian/Observer) if you spend £5 (£10 on Sundays) plus other offers which are usually 10% off random items in store, although sometimes more generous. And they email you vouchers, last week I got £3 off wine - the Puglian red I am having with my duck tonight.Beverley_C said:
Waitrose give you free coffee? Tescos most definitely do not because I have just been there getting a nice bottle of red for the Sunday roast.Slackbladder said:
Enjoy your free coffeeJohnLilburne said:.... Anyway, off to Waitrose.
Actually I have got a bit fed up with New World varietals, reliable as they are, and tend to go for terroir these days.
0 -
As long as everyone gets treated the same by law, what does it matter how English someone is anyway?Richard_Tyndall said:
For me Englishness has nothing to do with place of birth nor skin colour. It is a state of mind and an acceptance of certain non exclusive cultural attitudes. That is why I believe it is so difficult to define. For example I think it is far easier to define certain behaviours and attitudes as 'non English' than it is to define some as archetypal English.SouthamObserver said:I think that in the past some have expounded an exclusionary vision of Englishness which claims that only people born and bred here of people that were born and bred here can properly be considered English (as opposed to British). I don't think it has ever been close to a majority view, but it seems to be one that certain people on the left have heard - mainly because most normal English people do not spend that much time thinking or talking about their Englishness.
But I would contend that same about almost all cultural groupings.
I wouldn't expect better treatment because my family are all English than someone whose parents were born elsewhere because we are both English and should be treated the same... but if they said they were as English as I were I'd have to raise an eyebrow, as if we both went to the country of their parents birth they would be more "whatever that country was" than me.
But so what really? I get the impression people are so ready to argue because they think everyone who disagrees even slightly is an ethnic cleanser... As with everything there are subtle shades in the argument with the over riding factor being it doesn't really matter0 -
Spurs = Ed Miliband.
It's that bad.0 -
Mike has often talked about the way the electoral odds are stacked in Ed M's favour this time: he's got of wedge of, say 10%, of leftish LibDems who are sticking with him, so far.
However, reading today's Sunday Times I came across an interesting polling factoid from Peter Kellner: an 8% swing from Labour to SNP would lose Ed M 19 seats in Scotland.
Now putting all the EV4EL to one side and assuming nothing has changed, the loss of 19 seats could easily deprive him of a working majority.
I think Labour have a mountain to climb to hold back SNP in the GE, especially if nothing has happened on Devo-Max (which technically it won't have, even if the Bill gets 2nd reading passed by Burns Night). Ed M is not popular in Scottish Labour. They will need Flash Gordon to shore the vote up - maybe Cameron's best next move is to offer him a plum international finance job and get him out of the way.
Perhaps we should be watching SNP/Labour polling in as much detail as the Liberal Dem vote collapse?0 -
Also note that Survation were closer than Yougov/ICM with their final poll. And also they were quite accurate on the local Gov't VI at the locals.
They're doing a very good job.0 -
I have checked, and before anyone pulls me up on it, Aglianico del Vulture is from Basilicata, which is the next door region to Campania. You get Aglianico from Campania, though.JohnLilburne said:
it's a blend - both, plus Nero de Troia. No AOC, just IGT Puglia. I discovered some of the Campanian wines when I visited Naples a few years ago, there are some very interesting grapes (Aglianico del Vulture is one) and unlike most other supermarket wines these days the reds aren't made just to be "fruity". I reckon they are much better value than the more fashionable northern Italian reds.OldKingCole said:
Primitovo or Negroamaro? I was introduced to them by a cousin who has moved to Puglia and I'm very grateful to him. I've found them to be very pleasant drinks indeed.JohnLilburne said:
If you sign up for a MyWaitrose card you get free coffee in store, also a free newspaper (Telegraph, Mail, Guardian/Observer) if you spend £5 (£10 on Sundays) plus other offers which are usually 10% off random items in store, although sometimes more generous. And they email you vouchers, last week I got £3 off wine - the Puglian red I am having with my duck tonight.Beverley_C said:
Waitrose give you free coffee? Tescos most definitely do not because I have just been there getting a nice bottle of red for the Sunday roast.Slackbladder said:
Enjoy your free coffeeJohnLilburne said:.... Anyway, off to Waitrose.
Actually I have got a bit fed up with New World varietals, reliable as they are, and tend to go for terroir these days.
0 -
Racism is one of the strangest concepts imaginable. There is only one human race so how can we be "racially" different from each other? It makes absolutely no sense.
Is that science or politics masquerading as science?0 -
No. It's worse.Scrapheap_as_was said:Spurs = Ed Miliband.
It's that bad.0 -
Thanks for that. I'll do some hunting; we've a couple of smaller, "interesting" importers locally. Worst come to the worse I'll have to go and see my cousin........ which is in fact something which I enjoy doing. The "bulk" wine from his local Co-operative is excellent and only a few Euros for a 5l container.JohnLilburne said:
it's a blend - both, plus Nero de Troia. No AOC, just IGT Puglia. I discovered some of the Campanian wines when I visited Naples a few years ago, there are some very interesting grapes (Aglianico del Vulture is one) and unlike most other supermarket wines these days the reds aren't made just to be "fruity". I reckon they are much better value than the more fashionable northern Italian reds.OldKingCole said:
Primitovo or Negroamaro? I was introduced to them by a cousin who has moved to Puglia and I'm very grateful to him. I've found them to be very pleasant drinks indeed.JohnLilburne said:
If you sign up for a MyWaitrose card you get free coffee in store, also a free newspaper (Telegraph, Mail, Guardian/Observer) if you spend £5 (£10 on Sundays) plus other offers which are usually 10% off random items in store, although sometimes more generous. And they email you vouchers, last week I got £3 off wine - the Puglian red I am having with my duck tonight.Beverley_C said:
Waitrose give you free coffee? Tescos most definitely do not because I have just been there getting a nice bottle of red for the Sunday roast.Slackbladder said:
Enjoy your free coffeeJohnLilburne said:.... Anyway, off to Waitrose.
Actually I have got a bit fed up with New World varietals, reliable as they are, and tend to go for terroir these days.
Agree with you about the northern Italian reds. Overpriced if they're good and often almost undrinkable if they're cheap in my opinion. FWIW.0 -
Tables here http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Referendum-Reactions-Results.pdf. Not sure which if any of the tables would count as a "Survation VI poll", will need to compare with last week's.Pulpstar said:
0 -
Is that science or politics masquerading as science?Itajai said:
Racism is one of the strangest concepts imaginable. There is only one human race so how can we be "racially" different from each other? It makes absolutely no sense.
The science iirc is that there are no discrete races, only a continuous spectrum of humanity.0 -
We're in a for a heck of a relegation fight this year. Bring back Tim!!!Scrapheap_as_was said:
No. It's worse.Scrapheap_as_was said:Spurs = Ed Miliband.
It's that bad.0 -
BBC liveblog, (the Matt cartoon above it is good as well)
"Former Labour and SNP politician Jim Sillars has called for Scottish independence to happen without the need for another referendum.
In a series of tweets, Mr Sillars said: Let Yes assert new indy rule - no more ref - majority votes and seats at Holyrood 2016 enough. What's this about waiting a generation - indy remains on agenda now. Queenie intervened for No as she did in 1979. So no more softly-softly - we go for Republic. I'll explain to all new #SNP recruits why the Independence Mandate matters at the next Party conference."0 -
The science iirc is that there are no discrete races, only a continuous spectrum of humanity.corporeal said:
Is that science or politics masquerading as science?Itajai said:
Racism is one of the strangest concepts imaginable. There is only one human race so how can we be "racially" different from each other? It makes absolutely no sense.
That certainly makes more sense than the strident assertion that there are no races.0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
Will try and have the post-race piece up fairly soon.0 -
Last week http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Future-of-the-UK-Poll.pdf table 15 had the same figures as the headline. So this week's headline would beJohnLilburne said:
Tables here http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Referendum-Reactions-Results.pdf. Not sure which if any of the tables would count as a "Survation VI poll", will need to compare with last week's.Pulpstar said:
Con 30
Lab 33
LD 8
UKIP 23
Ors 6
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Exactly. Especially in view of OGH's recent tweet (I assume he reckons this polling is kosher and not a subsample etc.):rottenborough said:Mike has often talked about the way the electoral odds are stacked in Ed M's favour this time: he's got of wedge of, say 10%, of leftish LibDems who are sticking with him, so far.
However, reading today's Sunday Times I came across an interesting polling factoid from Peter Kellner: an 8% swing from Labour to SNP would lose Ed M 19 seats in Scotland.
Now putting all the EV4EL to one side and assuming nothing has changed, the loss of 19 seats could easily deprive him of a working majority.
I think Labour have a mountain to climb to hold back SNP in the GE, especially if nothing has happened on Devo-Max (which technically it won't have, even if the Bill gets 2nd reading passed by Burns Night). Ed M is not popular in Scottish Labour. They will need Flash Gordon to shore the vote up - maybe Cameron's best next move is to offer him a plum international finance job and get him out of the way.
Perhaps we should be watching SNP/Labour polling in as much detail as the Liberal Dem vote collapse?
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 2h
SNP take 16% lead in post-IndyRef 2016 Holyrood election (const) from Survation has %:-
SNP 49.2
LAB 32.7
CON 13.4
LD 3.4
UKIP 0.2
GRN 0.6
THis is of course for the Scottish Parliament, but it is the constituency element which is effectively FPTP. Admittedly still not Westminster, but interesting. NOTA is of course important for Westminster voting in Scotland, but does no longer work so well for Labour if (a) Labour becomes regarded as the Tories little helpers, vide indyref,, and (b) the SNP look credible alternatives to perform the NOTA mission, and (c) the SNP are the only credible Westminster alternative to insist on the performance of the Vow.
And bear in mind the risk of a split in the Labour vote caused by the revival of the Socialists who have had a membership boom over the last two days alongside the Greens and SNP, and indeed also any splinter Labour group that might form.
And the tanks are already parked in George Square thanks to the Yes vote in Glasgow - but this time they are not UK Government ones, but SNP ones.
One might also wonder who will lead SLAB into the next UKGE. Would anyone want to replace Ms Lamont till after that?
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That certainly makes more sense than the strident assertion that there are no races.Itajai said:
The science iirc is that there are no discrete races, only a continuous spectrum of humanity.corporeal said:
Is that science or politics masquerading as science?Itajai said:
Racism is one of the strangest concepts imaginable. There is only one human race so how can we be "racially" different from each other? It makes absolutely no sense.
My Thai daughter-in-law is very anxious that our half-Thai granddaughters keep their skins as light as possible. Can't understand me sunbathing, especially as, although of primarily south of the Trent ancestry, I go brown very easily.0 -
Pathetic. Utterly pathetic.
I know how the '45' feel now....0 -
That certainly makes more sense than the strident assertion that there are no races.Itajai said:
The science iirc is that there are no discrete races, only a continuous spectrum of humanity.corporeal said:
Is that science or politics masquerading as science?Itajai said:
Racism is one of the strangest concepts imaginable. There is only one human race so how can we be "racially" different from each other? It makes absolutely no sense.
That's often what is meant by 'there are no races'.
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Rather a silly article by the Mail but that's not unusual. Having said that I don't believe that the volatility shown by YouGov was in any sense real. I'm not a pollster so I can't say why but I'm sure we'll all be more circumspect before treating Yougov polls as gospel again0
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